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MacRumors
Aug 14, 2007, 09:20 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Appleinsider details (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/08/14/apple_stirs_controversy_with_imovies_08_overhaul.html) complaints from some in the transition from iMovie HD 6 to the iMovie '08.

Apple's new iMovie application (http://www.apple.com/ilife/imovie/) was described as a complete rewrite to Apple's movie editing software. Many of the complaints focused on features that were lacking and a difficulty in transitioning projects from previous versions of iMovie.

Apple is offering iMovie HD 6 (http://www.apple.com/support/downloads/imovieHD6.html) as a download to purchasers of iLife '08 for those unhappy with the transition.

The change has not been met entirely with disapproval as some of our forum members seem very happy with the new iMovie.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/08/14/imovie-08-transition-pains/)



wavelayer
Aug 14, 2007, 09:27 AM
It's the first version, bound to be bugs. FCP was ridiculous in V1. I'm sure they'll work it out.

P-Worm
Aug 14, 2007, 09:28 AM
I personally like iMovie '08, and I'm a serious FCP user. I think people need to recognize iMovie for what it is now - a tool to make quick movies that can later be uploaded to YouTube or something along those lines.

P-Worm

Eric Lewis
Aug 14, 2007, 09:29 AM
need it to have wait ilife 08 has

marco114
Aug 14, 2007, 09:45 AM
Personally, I didn't use the old iMovie very much because I felt it was more complicated than it had to be. However, if you've ever tried using Windows Movie Maker, you'll appreciate how fast it is.

I think it would have been wise to have two different editing modes, simple and advanced and the simple mode could be the new one.

I found that the new iMovie is VERY easy and I now enjoy making movies again. The audio controls is about the only thing I would miss on the old one but it's not a deal breaker for me. It's easier to use and I find making movies fun again.

Also with the new iMovie, my movies seem more clear and smaller in size. I really think there's more pluses than minuses.

I think Apple directed the new iMovie at a person like myself. One that didn't really make movies often because it was more work than you wanted to do and the new one is just so simple, even a child could do it.

Lancetx
Aug 14, 2007, 09:45 AM
At least Apple is giving everyone a choice since iMovie HD 6 is a free download. You can use one or the other, or both, so nobody is being left out.

4God
Aug 14, 2007, 09:46 AM
I don't know if this has been posted elsewhere but when I installed
iMovie '08 (from disc) it created a folder within the applications folder
that says iMovie HD. It has the older version in it and it still works as well.
Not that I've had any problems with iMovie '08 or anything, I just thought
for those that were having issues they could just continue to use the older
version untill some sort of fix was announced. :)

ironring2006
Aug 14, 2007, 09:47 AM
It's the first version, bound to be bugs. FCP was ridiculous in V1. I'm sure they'll work it out.
These aren't bugs. These are lack of features. Two completely different things.

Personally, I think the new version looks like it fits in the iLife mentality. It isn't a pro app, and I don't think it will ever pretend to be one. It definitely looks like its easier and more manageable for the average consumer. It's more about getting your content out there and sharing it with your family/friends more easily.

Working with video can be cumbersome and time consuming. Being able to put something together quick has a lot more value in the end than a bunch of footage sitting unviewed on your hard drive.

marco114
Aug 14, 2007, 09:52 AM
Working with video can be cumbersome and time consuming. Being able to put something together quick has a lot more value in the end than a bunch of footage sitting unviewed on your hard drive.

100% Totally Agree. :)

megfilmworks
Aug 14, 2007, 10:00 AM
I think it fits the user who needs a quick easy movie maker, not a weak version of FCP. I could see using both apps for different reasons. The new iMovie would be great for slapping together a film on vacation for instance and FCP would be best for making a special film when you get home.

BadDude
Aug 14, 2007, 10:01 AM
I would very much agree that iMovie is easier to use than Windows Movie Maker. WMV requires a lot of difficult file management via wizards.

However iMovie only having 2 audio tracks and 1 video track makes it very difficult to preform many basic tasks.

chrisgeleven
Aug 14, 2007, 10:02 AM
I don't have a camcorder yet (waiting for the HD models to drop in price a little more), but from playing around with a few clips I had on my hard drive, the new iMovies is very nice.

I know previously, I tried to avoid using iMovie because it seemed just too complicated for what I needed to use it for.

This is definitely perfect for throwing together a bunch a clips quickly.

~Shard~
Aug 14, 2007, 10:03 AM
This app has undergone a major overhaul so there are bound to be growing pains with repsect to new and missing features between the two versions. I am not an iMovie user, however from the demo the new iMovie looks very slick, so hopefully Apple will refine it in future updates to include some of the supposed lacking features which previous iMovie users have identifed. That being said, those old users need to realize this is not just an update, rather the app has actually been overhauled and changed.

MacHiavelli
Aug 14, 2007, 10:07 AM
What I don't get is why the MBPs in the UK still come with iLife 06, but in other countries they come with 08.:(

Small White Car
Aug 14, 2007, 10:08 AM
I don't even use iMovie and I can't believe the ridiculous apologetic attitude in this thread. I'm outraged on behalf of iMovie users, whoever they might be.

Let’s be clear about what happened here. Apple totally killed iMovie, wrote a different app and took the name iMovie from the recently killed app and pasted it on the new project.

Now, I think iMovie 8 looks like a great program. It has lots of cool features. But the question remains, why weren’t these features added to the old iMovie? Or even better, just made into a separate program? They could have iMovie for editing and this “new program” for organizing and uploading.

But that’s not what happened. Imagine if, when Garage Band was new, they had killed iTunes and simply given Garage Band the iTunes name instead. So you have a program named iTunes that makes music, but no longer organizes it and syncs to the iPod.

Would you have reacted to that news with these comments?

• I’m sure they’ll work the bugs out.
• You can still use the old iTunes, it’s a free download!
• New iTunes lets you make music. That’s new and cool!
• I'm sure it will be refined in future versions.

Those would be terrible things to say in that situation and the same thing applies here. I’m surprised more of you don’t seem to care about this.

Kobekes
Aug 14, 2007, 10:08 AM
I think it would have been wise to have two different editing modes, simple and advanced and the simple mode could be the new one.

I found that the new iMovie is VERY easy and I now enjoy making movies again. The audio controls is about the only thing I would miss on the old one but it's not a deal breaker for me. It's easier to use and I find making movies fun again.


... my thoughts exactly!

milo
Aug 14, 2007, 10:12 AM
It makes sense for iMovie to be as simple and user friendly as possible, it's the app that's included when you buy a mac.

Not only is there FCP, but for those who want something more advanced than iMovie there's also final cut express.

VespR
Aug 14, 2007, 10:13 AM
I'm more upset over the fact my 12" powerbook can't run the app at all. Bit of a kick in the teeth considering I think this is an amazing laptop with one of the best form factors ever built.

millypede
Aug 14, 2007, 10:14 AM
What I don't get is why the MBPs in the UK still come with iLife 06, but in other countries they come with 08.:(

Because there is too much stock left in the Inventory to change them all, its a Free up date from apple.com/uk/ilife/uptodate you just pay P&P

johngordon
Aug 14, 2007, 10:16 AM
I tend to use iMovie to do dvd slideshows for wedding photographers, and a big thing was the ability to fade music out, or one track into another.

This is a huge feature to drop - surely a soundtrack is an important part of any movie, even a basic one, so to drop the ability to fade the audio in and out to fit your video is crazy. It's not a nice feature to have - surely it's an essential feature?

Having had a quick look at 08 on a new 24" iMac, it does look great, and the skimming is superb - but all it really needs is a timeline view. Then you can either use it as it is, or if you want to use some of the missing features, you could just switch to the timeline view. By all means tart it up a bit so it looks as great as the rest of 08, but there's really no excuse to drop it.

One question tho' - when you drop transitions in now - or even photos with the ken burns effect added - are they just done instantly now without encoding?

AdeFowler
Aug 14, 2007, 10:20 AM
Imagine if, when Garage Band was new, they had killed iTunes and simply given Garage Band the iTunes name instead. So you have a program named iTunes that makes music, but no longer organizes it and syncs to the iPod.

Not sure this analogy works, as both the new and old iMovie import and edit video... just in different ways and with a different set of features. That said, I know where you're coming from. I can't believe that Apple are dumping a mature product that many companies would die for, in order to start again. Sure, the missing features will come (themes, fx etc) but when... 2009?

milo
Aug 14, 2007, 10:21 AM
I don't even use iMovie and I can't believe the ridiculous apologetic attitude in this thread. I'm outraged on behalf of iMovie users, whoever they might be.

You don't use it...but you're outraged. Yeaaah. I'm sure a guy who hasn't used either version is really going to understand the situation.


Now, I think iMovie 8 looks like a great program. It has lots of cool features. But the question remains, why weren’t these features added to the old iMovie? Or even better, just made into a separate program? They could have iMovie for editing and this “new program” for organizing and uploading.

This new version also does editing, doesn't it? I don't see how this would compare to a garage band/itunes analogy at all. The app serves the same purpose with the upside of being easier to use and the downside of not having as many features. There are plenty of reasons to redo an app instead of just tweaking existing versions. It's too confusing. The codebase is a mess and needs to start over. Personally, I thought the old version was unintuitive and convoluted, to a degree where it kept me from really getting into it much. The "apologetic attitude" you talk about is simply that people have used both versions and they actually like the new one better. Maybe if you actually used the app you'd have a shot at understanding.

If an app isn't providing what users need, I'm glad to see it get scrapped and start from square one.

pgwalsh
Aug 14, 2007, 10:22 AM
Now, I think iMovie 8 looks like a great program. It has lots of cool features. But the question remains, why weren’t these features added to the old iMovie? Or even better, just made into a separate program? They could have iMovie for editing and this “new program” for organizing and uploading.
. I haven't used it, but it does look super simple to use. I agree with everyone asking for two modes. A quick and easy mode and an advanced edit mode. Perhaps the next version will contain these features.

Wild-Bill
Aug 14, 2007, 10:22 AM
I'm more upset over the fact my 12" powerbook can't run the app at all. Bit of a kick in the teeth considering I think this is an amazing laptop with one of the best form factors ever built.

There's a hack out there somewhere that will allow you to use it with PPC machines. Google FTW.

On another note, have people been using iMovie 08 for the video scrubbing and then importing into iMovie 06 for the advanced audio, transitions, and the like? I thought that might be a useful workflow. Thoughts?

Virgil-TB2
Aug 14, 2007, 10:22 AM
These aren't bugs. These are lack of features. Two completely different things.

As a Mac tech support person in a University faculty where iMovie is used very extensively by the students and has been since the day of it's debut, I am mystified at all the comments I am seeing on various forums about the "missing" features and the "breaking" of the iDVD support. I have helped people to make, or seen them make, hundreds of iMovies and personally given tutorials on it to a great deal of them and based on that this is what I see.

- Almost no one uses chapter markers, ever. This is only usefull if you are making a DVD which is actually rather difficult to do with the old iMovie in that the integration with iDVD is rather poor (in the old version). The number of our users that end up making DVD's out of their projects is a tiny fraction. Most users want to make a movie for a class project in an afternoon or less.

- Maybe one person out of a hundred uses the video effects (and we are talking about really low end users here "discovering" video for the first time). They play around with them and think they are funny, but almost no one ends up using them as they are basically too juvenile. They are a lark in the same way as photo-booth effects are, not a "feature."

- iMovie (HD 6) is totally *not* a pro level product, it's intended for mom and pop, not a movie producer. Anyone with even the most basic knowledge of digital video that wants to do anything other than "make a quick movie in an afternoon" uses some version of FCP. The people saying "I make a lot of movies using iMovie and I need this or that feature..." are not the hollywood producers they make themselves out to be.

I haven't tried the new version yet but it seems like it's exactly what it's supposed to be. An easy to use low end movie making application that come free with your computer.

I do have one reservation about the new iMovie that I haven't seen anywhere else though.

One of the biggest problems we have with making iMovies is that the average computer (eMacs or iMacs), has about enough room on the hard drive to store the raw video for maybe two iMovie projects. It's a constant battle with external drives and clearing space on the main drive when people are working in a lab environment. Given that, how useful is a video "cataloging" application (like iPhoto is for photos), when space is at such a premium? If you go out with a miniDV camera for the day you can easily collect a full tape worth of footage. If you do that twice and the hardrive is full, what's the point of the cataloging part?

We train all our users to think of the miniDV tapes as the actual "storage" of their video and of the computer as a temporary "mixing board" as that is the only metaphor that makes any sense. Video nuts like that employee who engendered this new product, probably have terabytes of space, the average mom and pop user has nothing like that.

dont24
Aug 14, 2007, 10:24 AM
This explains things. I just bought a new iMac and migrated User data only from my mini. When I tried looking at an iMovie 6 project, the 08 version didn't know what to do with it. As soon as I plugged my HDD with my complete mini backup, I could open my old projects using iMovie HD. Must be using 06 from the backup drive. I'll just drag it to my applications folder.

Small White Car
Aug 14, 2007, 10:31 AM
You don't use it...but you're outraged. Yeaaah. I'm sure a guy who hasn't used either version is really going to understand the situation.

I understand that it no longer has a timeline, no longer exports chapter markers, and no longer allows audio editing beyond affecting each clip's audio.

That's assembling, not editing.

I think it's great to offer a video assembly program. It adds more function to iLife. But to offer an assembly program INSTEAD of an editing program...well you've yet to convince me that this is a good plan.

I've seen lots and lots of posts on why having an assembler is good. I get it. But can someone explain to me why dropping the editor is an improvement? I don't get that.

slffl
Aug 14, 2007, 10:33 AM
I absolutely LOVE iMovie '08. I have created more movies using it than I ever did in '06. I'm so glad Apple doesn't listen to forum posters when creating their products, or we'd be stuck in the 90's still.

fastbite
Aug 14, 2007, 10:34 AM
The new iMovie'08 is just fantastic, perfect! It's what iMovie should have been all along. I'm pro and I know what I'm talking about. Finally my daughter and my mother will be able to put a movie together. And i will have a quick few minutes of fun doing the same.

Multimedia
Aug 14, 2007, 10:40 AM
Not to be an apologist for Apple, but I think any rewrite of any application is going to be missing some of what it replaces had. But I also think these complaints are being heard and work is probably underway to return what's missing in future updates ASAP.

Meanwhile you should take advantage of Apple's Feedback mechanism to vote your complaints directly to them so they hear from as many unhappy users as possible.

The iMovie '08 feedback form is accessed from within the application under the iMovie menu where it says "Provide iMovie Feedback". :)

guzhogi
Aug 14, 2007, 10:44 AM
Personally, I liked iMovie '06. For me, it was pretty easy to use and had enough features to do what I needed without having too many features. I liked having the chapter markers, effects and being able to record audio into it. I haven't used iMovie '08 yet so I don't know what its features are like, but quite a few of the things I used in '06 aren't available in '08. For all those who say get FCP, FCP Express is $299 and Studio is $1299 for the full versions. That's way too much for an average user, especially me. I don't even make $17,000 a year.

ironring2006
Aug 14, 2007, 10:45 AM
One of the biggest problems we have with making iMovies is that the average computer (eMacs or iMacs), has about enough room on the hard drive to store the raw video for maybe two iMovie projects. It's a constant battle with external drives and clearing space on the main drive when people are working in a lab environment. Given that, how useful is a video "cataloging" application (like iPhoto is for photos), when space is at such a premium? If you go out with a miniDV camera for the day you can easily collect a full tape worth of footage. If you do that twice and the hardrive is full, what's the point of the cataloging part?

You're correct if you're thinking more about someone with a (HD)DV camcorder shooting hours of footage, except I think the majority of the consumer public is currently shifting to shooting more short clips using the movie feature of their digital camera. It might be 5 seconds here, or a couple minutes there from an event. In total you might have a couple hundred megs of short clips. I see this is more what the clip library is good for.

I don't know for sure, but I assume the new iMovie would allow you to put your clip library on an external drive or any volume of your choice. I would also assume that it has a backup to dvd feature as well. Running out of space? Just highlight say your 3 oldest events and backup to dvd.

Come to think of it, I think they should have named this new app iClips or something like that (and kept iMovie). It's good for putting together something 5 minutes long, which I think of as a "clip". Once you get over say 15 minutes, then it becomes a "movie".

TuffLuffJimmy
Aug 14, 2007, 10:48 AM
I don't even use iMovie and I can't believe the ridiculous apologetic attitude in this thread.


Now, I think iMovie 8 looks like a great program. It has lots of cool features. But the question remains, why weren’t these features added to the old iMovie? Or even better, just made into a separate program? They could have iMovie for editing and this “new program” for organizing and uploading.



Well That's exactly what happened. You can still use the old iMovie application; it doesn't get thrown away. So obviously you can use both. Seriously the people who are complaining all seem to have spent five minutes with the new iMovie and they had decided it was a bad product before they touched it. (The person who I am quoting obviously hasn't used the new iLife or else they would know that you can still use the old application.

illitrate23
Aug 14, 2007, 10:51 AM
i got quite used to iMovie 06 last year and found some neat things you can do in it. when i installed iLife'08 i was initially a bit shocked that it seemed that half the functionality of the old app had been removed
but after half an hour of messing about i managed to find it all again - it's just in different places and approached the idea of making the movie from a slightly different perspective
am very happy with it so far

and very pleased to see that iMovie HD 6 is still in my Applications folder so if i do need it, i can still get to it. that's a smart move on behalf of Apple's installer and i wonder why there's such a big thing being made about Apple providing the old app as a download - if you were daft enough to delete it before you were sure you wanted to upgrade then that's your fault isn't it?

ICN16x9
Aug 14, 2007, 10:52 AM
Working with video can be cumbersome and time consuming. Being able to put something together quick has a lot more value in the end than a bunch of footage sitting unviewed on your hard drive.


I agree with you! I've had close to 20 miniDV tapes sitting on my shelf, waiting to be digitized for the past 3 years. I was able to use iMovie '08 to digitize these in a day. All the clips were automatically separated into events! This new version rocks! :D

kddpop
Aug 14, 2007, 10:57 AM
my wife and i tried it out at an apple store.

looks amazing. i really liked the new interface and assembly scheme.

will really miss the audio control. sincing up a second audio source to shot footage saved a wedding video we shot for a friend. the camera sound was insufficient and we used audio from the board mix. made the wedding video actually enjoyable.

so, with imovie 08, we would be forced to buy the much more expensive FCE in order to do the same things as 06.

~kyle

kddpop
Aug 14, 2007, 11:02 AM
- iMovie (HD 6) is totally *not* a pro level product, it's intended for mom and pop, not a movie producer. Anyone with even the most basic knowledge of digital video that wants to do anything other than "make a quick movie in an afternoon" uses some version of FCP. The people saying "I make a lot of movies using iMovie and I need this or that feature..." are not the hollywood producers they make themselves out to be.

I haven't tried the new version yet but it seems like it's exactly what it's supposed to be. An easy to use low end movie making application that come free with your computer.


i do not try and make myself out to be a hollywood producer, but there are features in 06 that i will miss. i may not be a pro, but i don't think audio syncing and timeline editing are pro features. i agree that the quick assembly scheme of 08 is great and geared to the super quick, low tech user. but what about the medium tech, non pro user who'd like just a little more control. the jump from 08 to FCE is now a very large one.

and perhaps you should try the new version before your critique. not trying to pick a fight. honestly. just a friendly suggestion. you will find, i think, that 08 is a great ap, but those missing features truly are missing.

~kyle

evilgEEk
Aug 14, 2007, 11:03 AM
I haven't played with iMovie '08 yet, but I really want to try it out and see how it feels. So far to me it sounds like a good product that just needs to be refined, just like every other iLife application has been.

But what I really don't get when I read all these comments is all the people saying how cumbersome and complicated iMovie '06 is.... umm... What?? How is it complicated? My mother-in-law who basically knows how to use email and browse the internet made a movie in iMovie '06!

Definitely not complicated.

I'm a huge iMovie fan because generally the videos I make are simple and I don't want to bother with a more powerful editing program if I don't need to.

But regardless, that's great that Apple's allowing users to still use iMovie '06 if they want to. Although I'm sure after a couple of updates no one will be using '06 anymore. :)

Small White Car
Aug 14, 2007, 11:03 AM
(The person who I am quoting obviously hasn't used the new iLife or else they would know that you can still use the old application.)

I do know that. I didn't bring it up because it's not a solution. New video formats, software updates, bug fixes...who needs 'em? When the rest of the world is using iMovie 12 some poor sap is still going to be using iMovie 6? I doubt it.

And since everyone seems to be taking the "if you don't use it, don't complain" argument, I'll tell you why this matters.

I don't use iMovie because I use Final Cut Pro. As a professional video editor I get lots of people asking me what computer and software to buy to learn the art of movie-making. These are no pros, but they want to make short films and need at least some features to put something together.

Up until now my answer has always been "Get an iMac. Once you factor in the cost of buying a video editing program for a PC, the Mac is actually a very good deal because it comes with iMovie. It will let you do everything you need."

What do I have to tell those people now? Buy Final Cut Express? Besides the cost, they're just in it for the fun and aren't looking to learn more complicated software than they need to.

I love Macs and I love explaining to people why they should buy one. I just lost one big reason in my argument to convince people that Mac is not only a good choice, but the BEST choice for them. That used to be easier to do for video hobby types. Not anymore.

This is why this annoys me and I don't think I have to use it to be bothered by this.

milo
Aug 14, 2007, 11:03 AM
But can someone explain to me why dropping the editor is an improvement? I don't get that.

Because the "editor" features as you call them (although it seems bizarre to insist that you're not really editing video unless you can add chapter markers, which only are available on DVD anyway) complicate the program. And for a most mainstream possible app, users value simplicity over features. While some miss the features, many more seem to be ecstatic about the ease of use. From what I can tell, this release is a direct response to user reaction. They've given the customers what they've asked for, if you don't like it, your beef is that most customers don't want the same thing you want.

Personally, I liked iMovie '06. For me, it was pretty easy to use and had enough features to do what I needed without having too many features. I liked having the chapter markers, effects and being able to record audio into it. I haven't used iMovie '08 yet so I don't know what its features are like, but quite a few of the things I used in '06 aren't available in '08. For all those who say get FCP, FCP Express is $299 and Studio is $1299 for the full versions. That's way too much for an average user, especially me. I don't even make $17,000 a year.

If you need the advanced features, you're not an average user, you're an advanced one. The average user wants easy and doesn't care about features they'll never use (that complicate the app for them). Your options are getting express or sticking with '06.

And let's not forget, this is an app that ships free with new macs. The upgrade is $79 along with four other apps. Is anyone surprised that an app that basically costs under $16 is going to make ease of use a higher priority than features?

ironring2006
Aug 14, 2007, 11:05 AM
I agree with you! I've had close to 20 miniDV tapes sitting on my shelf, waiting to be digitized for the past 3 years. I was able to use iMovie '08 to digitize these in a day. All the clips were automatically separated into events! This new version rocks! :D

Yeah, I've got about a dozen myself, and yes some of it does date back almost 3 years as well! A lot of fun stuff that I just haven't gotten around to doing. Sounds like the new iMovie is just what I need! Although I won't be purchasing it on its own myself until I get a new machine with Leopard and iLife included. I do however, have a MP for work that has just been ordered...maybe I can get some computing time in on it during off hours.

I've done a few other larger personal projects (mind you, not on a Mac) where I spent endless hours scrubbing and pulling out clips from tons of footage. This would have saved me a lot of time I think.

shadowband
Aug 14, 2007, 11:08 AM
You don't use it...but you're outraged. Yeaaah. I'm sure a guy who hasn't used either version is really going to understand the situation.


Well I have used both versions, and I completely agree with Small White Car. I have no problem with the inclusion of a new movie app in iLife, but name it something other than iMovie. The new app bears little resemblance to the original, and the two apps have completely different feature sets.

michelle21
Aug 14, 2007, 11:08 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Appleinsider details (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/08/14/apple_stirs_controversy_with_imovies_08_overhaul.html) complaints from some in the transition from iMovie HD 6 to the iMovie '08.

Apple's new iMovie application (http://www.apple.com/ilife/imovie/) was described as a complete rewrite to Apple's movie editing software. Many of the complaints focused on features that were lacking and a difficulty in transitioning projects from previous versions of iMovie.

Apple is offering iMovie HD 6 (http://www.apple.com/support/downloads/imovieHD6.html) as a download to purchasers of iLife '08 for those unhappy with the transition.

The change has not been met entirely with disapproval as some of our forum members seem very happy with the new iMovie.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/08/14/imovie-08-transition-pains/)

Ok first a disclaimer, I'm a final cut pro studio user , so I probably wasn't looking for any advanced features in imovie 8.

But what I did do was impressive.

I'm writting an Iphone application, and yesterday we decided why not do a demo on youtube. There are things in this app no one has tried and I wanted some record somewhere, in case I see future revenue possiblities.

So I recruited, inducted whatever my college student to help me make the demo. Now Steve Jobs is right this would of taken longer without ilife 08, I could of done it but not in a little over an hour, which is what we did from start to finish.

Let me discribed the process.

While she manipulated the app on the iphone I recorded it with a sony hard drive camcorder.

I imported the clips using imovie08, I could of used final cut, but as soon as I connected the camcorder to the usb port Imovie 08 was already asking me if I wanted to import, a lot of programs have trouble reading these sony files especially on the pc.

Next (here's where I cheated) I used final cut pro 6 to create the final movie.

Next I imported the movie into imovie 8.

Here's what I really liked.

In imovie 8 , I could add overlays, presentations , anything I want, then select multiple formats for distribution ie. appletv, pc and Iphone and than with a single click send the movie to my .mac gallery. Then with another click we sent the movie to our Youtube account.

That was pretty cool.

Here's the outcome, its on youtube too.


http://gallery.mac.com/cannonwc#100026

mkaake
Aug 14, 2007, 11:08 AM
I tend to use iMovie to do dvd slideshows for wedding photographers, and a big thing was the ability to fade music out, or one track into another.

This is a huge feature to drop - surely a soundtrack is an important part of any movie, even a basic one, so to drop the ability to fade the audio in and out to fit your video is crazy. It's not a nice feature to have - surely it's an essential feature?

Having had a quick look at 08 on a new 24" iMac, it does look great, and the skimming is superb - but all it really needs is a timeline view. Then you can either use it as it is, or if you want to use some of the missing features, you could just switch to the timeline view. By all means tart it up a bit so it looks as great as the rest of 08, but there's really no excuse to drop it.

One question tho' - when you drop transitions in now - or even photos with the ken burns effect added - are they just done instantly now without encoding?

You can (still) import your project into GarageBand to do the audio editing, and crossfade to your heart's content... and add as many audio tracks as you want. You can also add your chapter markers for iDVD there (which is another painful omission from iMovie '08, along with no effects other than color correction...)

kddpop
Aug 14, 2007, 11:15 AM
And let's not forget, this is an app that ships free with new macs. The upgrade is $79 along with four other apps. Is anyone surprised that an app that basically costs under $16 is going to make ease of use a higher priority than features?

i dont mind an ease of use priority. but were discussing the removal of features that werent all that difficult to use. in fact, these features could be just ignored in imovie 06. seems they could add a toggle to get some more audio control into imovie 08 for those of us intermediate users who need a bit more but dont need all of FCE. don't get me wrong. i love imovie 08. i just am missing the audio control.

~kyle

guzhogi
Aug 14, 2007, 11:21 AM
I'm the computer techie at an elementary school and ocassionally a teacher comes in to work on an iMovie (usually the music teacher after a concert). I'm sure the new version would be okay. All she'd need to do is take it from the camera and put it on a DVD. Not much else. But we also have a computer club where some 5th graders spend the year making a "Day in the life of a 5th grader" movie. With that, each 2 or so kids are given a specific area (gym, music, math, science, etc.) and take pictures of that. And then use the old iMovie to put it all together and add voice overs describing their part. Then I take each section and put it into a single iMovie, make each section its own chapter and then make a DVD for everyone involved. From what I saw from the demo and the web site, I don't think I can do that w/ the new iMovie. For those who have used the new version, can I do that all?

Since I work at an elementary school, the administrators don't want to put videos of the kids on the internet do to them being underage and all the bad stuff out there. Also, my district doesn't have the money to buy enough licenses of the new iLife (much less Final Cut) for all the computers @ each of our schools. Plus, most of the computers probably couldn't run the new version.

IMO, the new iMovie is a good assembler where you just slap together the clips and you're done. iMovie '06 is more of an editor which is good for the average user why FCE & FCP are for the higher end people. I don't want too many different versions b/c that'll just get confusing. But iMovie '06, '08 and Final Cut (Whatever) would be a good combination for low, medium and high end people.

guzhogi
Aug 14, 2007, 11:28 AM
You can (still) import your project into GarageBand to do the audio editing, and crossfade to your heart's content... and add as many audio tracks as you want. You can also add your chapter markers for iDVD there (which is another painful omission from iMovie '08, along with no effects other than color correction...)

One thing I don't like about doing that in Garageband is if you do a picture slideshow, every picture is a new chapter. I haven't learned how to make the whole thing (with several pictures) a single chapter.

gifford
Aug 14, 2007, 11:31 AM
iMovie 06 feature wise was about right for me, omitting timeline, effects, audio editing is one of the lamest things I have heard.
I'm also a Final Cut user, but sometimes I just love the simplicity of 06 and find myself using it surprisingly often.
08 is no use to me and (as someone else said earlier) I'm now unable to recommend the Mac for cheap n cheerful movie editing. As from what I'm reading, it sounds like Apple have created iMovie for those with learning disabilities.
Recommending 08 would be an insult to an able persons intelligence.

milo
Aug 14, 2007, 11:40 AM
iMovie 06 feature wise was about right for me, omitting timeline, effects, audio editing is one of the gayest things I have heard.
I'm also a Final Cut user...

...So you're not the target user for iMovie.

Just look at the response to this new version. Many people love it. And the few who don't seem to be people who use FC or other high end video apps and want a cheap/free app that covers all their needs.

Maybe some of this comes down to iMovie being *too* good and cannibalizing sales of FCE and FCP?

GFLPraxis
Aug 14, 2007, 11:42 AM
I absolutely LOVE the new iMovie. It's spectacular. I've uploaded stuff to YouTube before but it took me so long to edit it I kind of stopped because it was too time consuming. Things took forever to import, render, export, etc. and the interface required tons of scrolling on a small screen (MacBook).

This new one let's me whip up a quick YouTube video/podcast in minutes. It's exactly what I wanted; I didn't need any of the advanced features iMovie took out. Heck, I haven't even SPOTTED anything missing except for audio rubberbanding, and the only thing I used audio rubberbanding for is to fade the soundtrack when I speak, and iMovie 08 does that automatically for me.

I never used the themes and don't even know what they are. There are less transitions I think though but oh well.

I know someone who YouTubes all the time and does YouTube marketing, and when he saw iMovie 08 his jaw dropped and he wants to buy a Mac just for it.



One of the biggest problems we have with making iMovies is that the average computer (eMacs or iMacs), has about enough room on the hard drive to store the raw video for maybe two iMovie projects. It's a constant battle with external drives and clearing space on the main drive when people are working in a lab environment. Given that, how useful is a video "cataloging" application (like iPhoto is for photos), when space is at such a premium? If you go out with a miniDV camera for the day you can easily collect a full tape worth of footage. If you do that twice and the hardrive is full, what's the point of the cataloging part?


iMovie DOES consider videos stored on an external drive as part of the library; they disappear when you unplug the drive, reappear when you plug it back in. So if you're using external drives, it still works great.

koobcamuk
Aug 14, 2007, 11:53 AM
I absolutely LOVE iMovie '08. I have created more movies using it than I ever did in '06. I'm so glad Apple doesn't listen to forum posters when creating their products, or we'd be stuck in the 90's still.


More movies? How long have you had it?

kddpop
Aug 14, 2007, 11:54 AM
...So you're not the target user for iMovie.

Just look at the response to this new version. Many people love it. And the few who don't seem to be people who use FC or other high end video apps and want a cheap/free app that covers all their needs.

Maybe some of this comes down to iMovie being *too* good and cannibalizing sales of FCE and FCP?

the point is, he was the target user for imovie. now he isn't. and that's a bit of a shame as now instead of spending a little for ilife, he'll have to spend a lot more to get FCE.

i plan on using imovie 08 for certain things and keeping 06 around for more audio control. i love the new interface and ease of 08. just wish it had some of the old control from 06.

~kyle

GFLPraxis
Aug 14, 2007, 11:55 AM
iMovie 06 feature wise was about right for me, omitting timeline, effects, audio editing is one of the gayest things I have heard.
I'm also a Final Cut user, but sometimes I just love the simplicity of 06 and find myself using it surprisingly often.
08 is no use to me and (as someone else said earlier) I'm now unable to recommend the Mac for cheap n cheerful movie editing. As from what I'm reading, it sounds like Apple have created iMovie for those with learning disabilities.
Recommending 08 would be an insult to an able persons intelligence.

Have you even used it before you make such incredibly rude comments about people who actually might like 08?

The timeline is no longer needed; scrolling the mouse through the video works just as a timeline would, and since you can also set it to show the videos in anywhere from 1-second to 5 minute increments, it can function exactly as a timeline even in view.

Complaining that iMovie '08 lacks a timeline is like complaining that you can't surf the web on an iPhone without a mouse. You're USED to a mouse, but the skimming concept is an entirely new design paradigm that completely negates the need for a timeline.

As far as audio...I don't see much missing here. The only thing missing is audio rubberbanding; but since you can have tracks fade in and out when other tracks come in, I haven't had any need for it. Regardless, you're putting a double standard here.

You know, Final Cut Pro lacks serious audio editing! What an insult! Of course, it comes with Soundtrack that you can shoot the audio over to and back, right?

iMovie's the same; you can shoot it over to GarageBand for editing.

I really recommend you try iMovie 08 first before you insult everyone who likes it.

peterjhill
Aug 14, 2007, 12:02 PM
I love the new version of iMovie. It solved a big problem I had.. keeping track of what clips (should I call them assets) I have. A year ago I dumped all my dv tapes onto an external drive, but there was no easy way to see what I had.

With all my video in the new version of iMovie, I found some great clips. It makes me want to shoot more video. The old version of iMovie was too much work. The new version makes it fun.

I found some great video my wife took that I never saw before. My son, when he was one, eating his first cookie ever. The expressions he makes are hilarious. I was ROFL.

http://gallery.mac.com/peterjhill#100040
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhnO5bUJyXo

kingtj
Aug 14, 2007, 12:03 PM
For starters, iLife '06 never added support for the newer digital video formats needed to allow downloading directly from USB hard disk based camcorders, or clips made in "movie mode" on newer digital cameras.

Many people were anxiously waiting for iLife '08 so they could *finally* use their newer gear with it.

But now, they're forced to use a whole new program to do that, vs. at least having the option to stick with an iLife '06 app that added that hardware support.....

I'm one of these people, myself. I still use an old Sony TRV-730 Digtial-8 camcorder, only because none of my Mac video editing software will work directly/easily enough with the current hard-disk based camcorders on the market. Not sure I want to buy a new camcorder yet though, if iLife '08 is going to be my only available editing tool for it on my Mac.....

What about all the people who paid good money for the "Slick Transitions" packages for iMovie? All that money is down the drain if we move to iLife '08? That's not a good proposition either.

And to the guy who worked at a school and claims people just don't need any "advanced features" left out in '08 -- I think you're grossly mistaken there. Maybe your students don't delve into that, but MANY Mac users DO. I'm not a "Hollywood producer" - yet I do get called upon to edit vacation footage my family and relatives make, and to burn a DVD movie of the edited results for them. I do a couple of these a year, and iMovie has been my tool of choice.

I have to make heavy use of audio level editing to fade out audio that's poor, unintelligible, or inappropriate while working with their footage - and occasionally want to overlay audio from another source. I shouldn't need a $299 copy of FCE just to accomplish THAT!


iMovie 06 feature wise was about right for me, omitting timeline, effects, audio editing is one of the gayest things I have heard.
I'm also a Final Cut user, but sometimes I just love the simplicity of 06 and find myself using it surprisingly often.
08 is no use to me and (as someone else said earlier) I'm now unable to recommend the Mac for cheap n cheerful movie editing. As from what I'm reading, it sounds like Apple have created iMovie for those with learning disabilities.
Recommending 08 would be an insult to an able persons intelligence.

KingofAwesome
Aug 14, 2007, 12:10 PM
So I recruited, inducted whatever my college student to help me make the demo. Now Steve Jobs is right this would of taken longer without ilife 08, I could of done it but not in a little over an hour, which is what we did from start to finish.

....

I imported the clips using imovie08, I could of used final cut, but as soon as I connected the camcorder to the usb port Imovie 08 was already asking me if I wanted to import, a lot of programs have trouble reading these sony files especially on the pc.

Without detracting from the content of your comment, PLEASE stop typing "would of" and "could of." It's "would have" and "could have." "Would of" comes from people hearing "would've" and incorrectly interpreting that.

peterjhill
Aug 14, 2007, 12:15 PM
Without detracting from the content of your comment, PLEASE stop typing "would of" and "could of." It's "would have" and "could have." "Would of" comes from people hearing "would've" and incorrectly interpreting that.

It "Would Have" probably been better to send this comment via private message. Maybe I "Should Have" sent this as a private message to you. Online forums are not a great place for grammar police.

milo
Aug 14, 2007, 12:23 PM
the point is, he was the target user for imovie. now he isn't. and that's a bit of a shame as now instead of spending a little for ilife, he'll have to spend a lot more to get FCE.

I have no idea what ever gave you that idea.

He was happy with the earlier version. That doesn't make him the target user.

The target user for this sort of apps is the lowest common denominator, make it usable for people who know the bare minimum about computers and video.

They missed the target with 06, the fact that normal folks were unhappy and FCP users were happy is evidence of that. With 08 they seem to have hit the bullseye.

DavidLeblond
Aug 14, 2007, 12:30 PM
Back when I got married, I tried to edit my wedding video on iMovie '05... couldn't do it. Going through that many clips was way too cumbersome.

I tried again a few weeks ago when my daughter was born, to make a movie about her to send out. Again frustration, and this was only with 1 hour of clips.

With iMovie '08, I tried again. Did a 5 minute video from 1 hour of clips in 10 minutes.

I love iMovie '08.

guzhogi
Aug 14, 2007, 12:33 PM
...So you're not the target user for iMovie.

Just look at the response to this new version. Many people love it. And the few who don't seem to be people who use FC or other high end video apps and want a cheap/free app that covers all their needs.

Maybe some of this comes down to iMovie being *too* good and cannibalizing sales of FCE and FCP?

I agree. Maybe iMovie '06 was too good and started cannibalizing FCE & FCP. I think that was the case w/ the Power Mac Cube. And probably the reason why we don't have a midtower Mac.

I see 2 basic kinds of comments in this thread: those people who say that (1) iMovie '08 is great for the average consumer and anyone who needs something more advanced should go w/ FCE/FCP and NOT stay w/ iMovie '06. Or (2) iMovie '06 was great for intermediate people, but should keep iMovie '08 and FCE/FCP. I'm more of the second group. IMO, iMovie '08 is great for those basic movies where you slap some clips together while iMovie '06 is good for some more advanced editing, but don't need/want/can't afford FCE/FCP. And then Final Cut is for the high quality, full featured guys. This isn't a black & white issue where you either need really basic stuff or really advanced stuff. There are people in that gray zone where they need/want the features of iMovie '06, but don't want/need Final Cut.

The feature I really like about iMovie '08 is the whole library thing and being able to see what you have. I'd be interested in using it a bit. I'd have to save up my money first, but I look forward to using it.

nateDEEZY
Aug 14, 2007, 12:39 PM
Personally, I think the new version looks like it fits in the iLife mentality. It isn't a pro app, and I don't think it will ever pretend to be one. It definitely looks like its easier and more manageable for the average consumer. It's more about getting your content out there and sharing it with your family/friends more easily.

Working with video can be cumbersome and time consuming. Being able to put something together quick has a lot more value in the end than a bunch of footage sitting unviewed on your hard drive.

+2 I agree 100% with the above post. I've only messed with the previous iMovie a few times, but since I got iLife 08' I've noticed I've been putting out short videos here and there more often than ever... Just so I could share it with family and friends.

mustang_dvs
Aug 14, 2007, 12:40 PM
What I don't get is why the MBPs in the UK still come with iLife 06, but in other countries they come with 08.:(Because there is too much stock left in the Inventory to change them all, its a Free up date from apple.com/uk/ilife/uptodate you just pay P&P
If bought from Apple, any computer shipped to retail prior to last week will include iLife '08 as a pack-in, if not already installed. 3rd party retailers may not participate -- it may be their option, or a cost issue. The short of it is, any machine bought from Apple after August 8 should include iLife '08.

I tend to use iMovie to do dvd slideshows for wedding photographers, and a big thing was the ability to fade music out, or one track into another.

This is a huge feature to drop - surely a soundtrack is an important part of any movie, even a basic one, so to drop the ability to fade the audio in and out to fit your video is crazy. It's not a nice feature to have - surely it's an essential feature?iMovie '08 still does this -- except for cross-fading within a track -- and it's even easier than before (it takes 2 clicks to fade background audio in/out for a clip).

What about all the people who paid good money for the "Slick Transitions" packages for iMovie? All that money is down the drain if we move to iLife '08? That's not a good proposition either.You'd be just as SOL if your 3rd party package(s) didn't work with an incremental-style iMovie '08 -- quit griping about hypotheticals that'll never happen. Most of my PowerPC-coded Photoshop CS2 plug-ins don't work in CS3 via Rosetta, but I'm not bitching to Adobe about it (and we're talking thousands of dollars invested).

And to the guy who worked at a school and claims people just don't need any "advanced features" left out in '08 -- I think you're grossly mistaken there. Maybe your students don't delve into that, but MANY Mac users DO. I'm not a "Hollywood producer" - yet I do get called upon to edit vacation footage my family and relatives make, and to burn a DVD movie of the edited results for them. I do a couple of these a year, and iMovie has been my tool of choice.And I don't see anything in iMovie '08 that'll prevent you from doing more family movies -- if anything, it'll be easier.

I have to make heavy use of audio level editing to fade out audio that's poor, unintelligible, or inappropriate while working with their footage - and occasionally want to overlay audio from another source. I shouldn't need a $299 copy of FCE just to accomplish THAT!You want professional level audio tools from a $79 consumer bundle? As it is, Garage Band can probably do most of the audio editing you want... and iMovie '08 will allow you to overlay audio to replace or supplement in-track audio.

mustang_dvs
Aug 14, 2007, 12:43 PM
They missed the target with 06, the fact that normal folks were unhappy and FCP users were happy is evidence of that. With 08 they seem to have hit the bullseye.

Exactly! I couldn't have said it better, myself (as a FCP user who found iMovie '06 frustratingly difficult for a 'consumer' app).

Gasu E.
Aug 14, 2007, 12:46 PM
I don't use the product and don't know what it does, and I haven't read anything about the product. But I'm mad as hell! Apple did something I don't like, I'm sure of it! Just not sure what. But it's the principle that counts!:mad:

gregdig
Aug 14, 2007, 12:52 PM
havent gotten around to trying it yet, im sure its fine

This sounds very scientific.

gifford
Aug 14, 2007, 12:52 PM
I have no idea what ever gave you that idea.

He was happy with the earlier version. That doesn't make him the target user.

The target user for this sort of apps is the lowest common denominator, make it usable for people who know the bare minimum about computers and video.


I may not have been the 'target' user, but the people I (would have)recommend it to are. They are just average computer users who every now and then want to post something funny to Youtube. And that almost always means some sort of audio editing. Some of them are almost completly computer illiterate, but dragging an audio clip onto a timeline is not exactly rocket science.

numlock
Aug 14, 2007, 12:54 PM
...So you're not the target user for iMovie.

Just look at the response to this new version. Many people love it. And the few who don't seem to be people who use FC or other high end video apps and want a cheap/free app that covers all their needs.

Maybe some of this comes down to iMovie being *too* good and cannibalizing sales of FCE and FCP?

what has that got to do with the fact that he/she thought imovie06 was perfect for him and many others?

I could understand your point if apple hadnt been releasing imovie and updating it throughout the years with the "missing features" and people were complaining about features lacking in a brand new app. But that certainly isnt the case.

then theres the total ignorance of the 3rd party plugin market.

Like others have said what would have been the problem of having this new instant movie maker app and an updated imovie app coexist?

fadetowhite
Aug 14, 2007, 12:59 PM
Things are getting a tad bit heated here over lil' ol' iMovie. Hahaha.

The new version looks fantastic. I think it will be used by a lot of people and we'll be seeing even more uploads to YouTube, etc. It really simplifies the process, and looks fairly slick as well.

Someone posted about the app being made to hit the majority of consumers. With MacBooks flying off the shelves into the hands of university students, and the iMac gaining some ground, the majority of iMovie users are going to be looking for an app like '08. Major generalization: previously, folks who bought Macs mostly bought them because they wanted to do media, etc. So the majority of Mac users wouldn't mind using a slightly more complicated app like '06. I see a big shift in what folks will want out of iMovie - something that is as simple as iPhoto and iTunes, and works well with the web.

That said, I personally am disappointed about the replacement of iMovie with this new version. I am really glad they are offering '06 for download.

The reason I am disappointed is that I teach Film and Video 12 at a high school. I have 14 G4 eMacs in my classroom, each with 256mb RAM and 40gb HDDs. These eMacs won't actually run Final Cut Express - the app fails to load, asking for more RAM. iMovie '06 runs great on the machines. I imagine (though I haven't tried yet) that '08 won't run super smoothly on these older machines.

My students import their footage, edit it, spit out DV versions, burn a DVD, and then they delete their projects and footage. We definitely don't need to organize footage like photos or music is organized.

But that's not really the issue. The issue is the removal of some key features. The way that '06 handles audio editing and its time line is vastly superior for our needs than the '08 way. With nearly every project, it is necessary to edit the audio quite a bit, bringing sections of clips up, ramping down music, etc. We also create DVDs (putting student things on the web is a no-no), and use the chapter markers often, especially for collaborative projects.

I could go on, but the bottom line is that '08 is a completely different program, and would be not suited to my needs at all. It's a quick and dirty way of making a simple video, not the best for trying to teach the ins and outs of video/audio editing and so forth.

I am sure '08 will grow in the future, and this won't be an issue at all. But for now, I am happy that I can download '06 and install it on the machines in my classroom.

PS: Is iMovie '06 really that difficult to use? My students are basically pros with it inside of a few days. It can be a bit cumbersome, but I gotta say - I don't see how the general idea has changed between versions. The selection of clips in '08 is much easier/better, but the dragging and dropping of clips and effects and audio is basically the same.

EagerDragon
Aug 14, 2007, 01:03 PM
I would love it but I have a PowerBook and it does not run on G4.

kddpop
Aug 14, 2007, 01:07 PM
I have no idea what ever gave you that idea.

He was happy with the earlier version. That doesn't make him the target user.

The target user for this sort of apps is the lowest common denominator, make it usable for people who know the bare minimum about computers and video.

They missed the target with 06, the fact that normal folks were unhappy and FCP users were happy is evidence of that. With 08 they seem to have hit the bullseye.

i got that idea because the features that apple included in imovie 06 appealed to him. apple targets users by including certain features.

now those features are gone. he was a target user for imovie 06. he is not a target user for imovie 08. that's my point. apple is re targeting users and leaving some of us out. i think they've mised the bullseye since there are some users who are now in between imovie and FCE. imovie 08 is still a great product and will work for a large number of people. but there are people left out/in the middle of their products...hence no bullseye from my perspective.

that being said, i love imovie 08 and will use it. but i will continue to use imovie 06 for certain projects that require the features that are not in imovie 08. i would upgrade to FCE but it is, for me, cost prohibitive to do so.

~kyle

jacg
Aug 14, 2007, 01:10 PM
I love how quickly I can make movies for uploading. I hope they bring some of the workflow visuals to FCP and FCE.

I will still use FCP for serious projects, especially those going onto DVD.

The question is, what will I use to teach children about movie making? You can't really do cutaways with iMovie 08 and kids love all of 06's effects.

cliffjumper68
Aug 14, 2007, 01:12 PM
I personally like iMovie '08, and I'm a serious FCP user. I think people need to recognize iMovie for what it is now - a tool to make quick movies that can later be uploaded to YouTube or something along those lines.

P-Worm

Totally agree, the new approach is much more streamlined for the youtube/ share video world. Hopefully they will incorporate templates and frames.

MrSmith
Aug 14, 2007, 01:13 PM
Back when I got married, I tried to edit my wedding video on iMovie '05... couldn't do it. Going through that many clips was way too cumbersome.

I tried again a few weeks ago when my daughter was born, to make a movie about her to send out. Again frustration, and this was only with 1 hour of clips.

With iMovie '08, I tried again. Did a 5 minute video from 1 hour of clips in 10 minutes.

I love iMovie '08.It's not right to voice an opinion without having used it, but perhaps the people complaining are those who don't want to condense an hour's video into 5 minutes as a 10 minute rush job. I only make videos for my family but I still like to be creative and make each movie a little different. There's no way I could or want to 'slap' a movie together in half an hour. There's nothing wrong with doing that if that's what you want to do, but a lot of people don't.

I imagine a lot of people see this going the way of lowest common denominator. That's fine for some (someone above amusingly said, Apple have created iMovie for those with learning disabilities; I hope it isn't that bad :D), but in doing so, if they have taken away the tools from loyal legions of previous users then I reckon said users have a reason to be annoyed. Someone else finding it a great new piece of software compared to a previous version they found difficult to use does not detract from their argument.

As an aside, what's this 'no chapter markers'? How the hell are you meant to mark chapters before sending to iDVD?

milo
Aug 14, 2007, 01:16 PM
I may not have been the 'target' user, but the people I (would have)recommend it to are. They are just average computer users who every now and then want to post something funny to Youtube. And that almost always means some sort of audio editing. Some of them are almost completly computer illiterate, but dragging an audio clip onto a timeline is not exactly rocket science.

I'm not sure what you imagine for throwing together a video clip for youtube that 08 can't do. You can add a music track, right? You can add a voiceover track, right?

What exactly isn't possible that is needed for putting together a youtube clip?

what has that got to do with the fact that he/she thought imovie06 was perfect for him and many others?

I'm not sure what you're asking. My point is that yes, there are people that loved 06. But they seem to be people who are more inclined to use FC. And now that 08 is out, the newbie users (the people apps like this are intended for) seem to be embracing it much more than the earlier version.

Like others have said what would have been the problem of having this new instant movie maker app and an updated imovie app coexist?

You mean other than supporting yet another app, especially one that has less appeal than the new version? Apple has three video editing apps. You honestly think that's not enough and they should offer four (not to mention that the fourth is still available, just not in development)?


I could go on, but the bottom line is that '08 is a completely different program, and would be not suited to my needs at all. It's a quick and dirty way of making a simple video, not the best for trying to teach the ins and outs of video/audio editing and so forth.

And again, iMovie isn't really intended for you. You honestly expect a $16 program to be "the best for trying to teach the ins and outs of video/audio editing"?

kingtj
Aug 14, 2007, 01:22 PM
1. The lack of support for Slick transition packs in iMovie '08 is radically different than the issue one might have with them not functioning any longer in an incremental upgrade. Why? Because (according even to GeeThree), Apple *removed* the ability to support 3rd. party plug-ins in iMovie '08! In the past, GeeThree has always given out free update patches to fix issues making their add-ons work with incremental iMovie releases (EG. v3 to v4). Now, Apple essentially locked them out of the marketplace!

2. How is it a need for "professional level audio tools" to simply want a way to easily mute the volume here and there within a movie clip, and optionally, to insert some sound f/x or other clips in their place? I used to play in a band and do a little bit of recording, so I have a decent grasp of what "pro audio tools" are. I'm not asking for iMovie to allow "normalization" of the sound, equalization, compression, or any other "pro" type audio mastering tool! I'm talking about the lack of a way to visualize the audio as a rubber-band you can click and drag up and down. Yes, I *do* expect something along those lines for $79..... Otherwise, we're left with what is essentially another clone of "Windows Movie Maker" that comes with Windows. I expect much more from Apple.



You'd be just as SOL if your 3rd party package(s) didn't work with an incremental-style iMovie '08 -- quit griping about hypotheticals that'll never happen. Most of my PowerPC-coded Photoshop CS2 plug-ins don't work in CS3 via Rosetta, but I'm not bitching to Adobe about it (and we're talking thousands of dollars invested).

And I don't see anything in iMovie '08 that'll prevent you from doing more family movies -- if anything, it'll be easier.

You want professional level audio tools from a $79 consumer bundle? As it is, Garage Band can probably do most of the audio editing you want... and iMovie '08 will allow you to overlay audio to replace or supplement in-track audio.

milo
Aug 14, 2007, 01:27 PM
now those features are gone. he was a target user for imovie 06. he is not a target user for imovie 08. that's my point. apple is re targeting users and leaving some of us out. i think they've mised the bullseye since there are some users who are now in between imovie and FCE.

I don't agree that he was the target user for 06. But even if he was, apple made the decision to aim the program at a much bigger part of the market, and the one that is going to be using an app that comes free with the machine and not needing to buy something more advanced. Since iMovie was too complicated before, people wanting the quickest and simplest weren't covered by any app. As part of that move, a smaller group isn't covered by the app, but they still have the options of FCP, FCE and 06. It's a bit silly to complain about falling "in between" apple's THREE video apps - the issue isn't falling in-between, it's wanting FCE as part of a $79 package.

You can't make everyone happy with one app. PERIOD.

I can see why people are unhappy about not being catered to personally, but making an app for the widest possible audience makes the most sense.

2. How is it a need for "professional level audio tools" to simply want a way to easily mute the volume here and there within a movie clip, and optionally, to insert some sound f/x or other clips in their place?

Have you even used the app? You can certainly add SFX.

numlock
Aug 14, 2007, 01:30 PM
I'm not sure what you're asking. My point is that yes, there are people that loved 06. But they seem to be people who are more inclined to use FC. And now that 08 is out, the newbie users (the people apps like this are intended for) seem to be embracing it much more than the earlier version.

Sure they are more inclined to FCE/P than the users/lovers of the new imovie but dosent mean they are users of FCE/P or can be or should be.

Its great that some like this new app. With the way things are going and the amount of people expressing themselves in short videoclips something an app like this is a welcome addition. That dosent mean people should be forced to purchase something for almost 300 dollars if they want the unbelievably advanced feature of a timeline view.

You mean other than supporting yet another app, especially one that has less appeal than the new version? Apple has three video editing apps. You honestly think that's not enough and they should offer four (not to mention that the fourth is still available, just not in development)?

how do you come to the conclusion that the old imovie has less appeal than the new one?

And whats with all these "imovie was too difficult" Until this recent update of the ilife package i had never heard anyone even say imovie was difficult

3 video apps on the face of it sounds enough but this imovie could have just easily been a feature of an improved and updated imovie.

What can we then expect in the future? Cutting out or severely limiting textedit because of pages and now numbers? quicktime since itunes is supposed to handle your video library? preview since leopard has coverflow and quicklook?

EagerDragon
Aug 14, 2007, 01:30 PM
At least Apple is giving everyone a choice since iMovie HD 6 is a free download. You can use one or the other, or both, so nobody is being left out.

I have a PB and I already paid for iMovie 06 when I purchased iLife 06, If I buy iLife 08, do we get a discount since we can not use the new iMovie?

larriveejp
Aug 14, 2007, 01:31 PM
There are certainly some compelling reasons to hide complexity from the users who feel iMovie '06 was hard, but I have yet to see any good reasons to remove it altogether.

If I thought iMovie '08 was horrible I wouldn't care at all, but I love the scrubbing and the library features. However, as much as I like those features I am frustrated by how great it could really be if they just added a little bit more (iMovie '06 audio editing + timeline).

If there were "simple" and "advanced" modes I don't see how it would impact the people who just want to make YouTube videos at all. Not having those "advanced" features (to have to call them advanced features is really just silly) definitely impacts those of us who would like to be able to continue doing what we have been doing with "iMovie" for years.

As for the people saying FCE is a great iMovie alternative, not so fast. FCE is closer to FCP on a diet than it is iMovie '06 on steroids. I don't need half of what Final Cut Express has to create home movies (and yes I own it), but I had grown accustomed to using iMovie's features for just such a task.

Here's hoping they add the features in and hide them from those who don't need them so everybody wins.

johngordon
Aug 14, 2007, 01:37 PM
I absolutely LOVE iMovie '08. I have created more movies using it than I ever did in '06. I'm so glad Apple doesn't listen to forum posters when creating their products, or we'd be stuck in the 90's still.

I really don't get that at all - how can removing the ability to edit audio if you want to possibly be a good thing?

If that option was still there, it wouldn't have slowed you down at all, as you would simply just not use it.

But others might - and despite the argument that 08 is what is etc - when else in the history of software has removing useful functionality been a good move?

As I said before, 08 looks great, and I'm sure it is better for making something quickly - but surely it could have been exactly as it is, but also with an option of a timeline view, where you could edit the audio, add chapter markers etc.

I'm one of those people who actually does make DVDs - usually for wedding photographers, and I tend to add markers for each part of the day.

For what it's worth, if the next update of FCE was to iMovie what Aperture is to iPhoto, ie with the same great looking UI, and this sort of functionality, improved over iMovie 06, then I'd be there like a shot.

EagerDragon
Aug 14, 2007, 01:40 PM
I understand that it no longer has a timeline, no longer exports chapter markers, and no longer allows audio editing beyond affecting each clip's audio.

That's assembling, not editing.


Have thoise functions moved to iDVD?
If they have not, then I would think we went foward in some areas and backwards in another.

shadowband
Aug 14, 2007, 01:41 PM
PS: Is iMovie '06 really that difficult to use? My students are basically pros with it inside of a few days.

Apparently so ;) After reading through this thread, I was surprised at how many people feel that iMovie'06 is complicated to use. I don't quite get how dragging and dropping clips into a timeline is all that difficult - go figure.

Again, I don't have anything against a "dumbed down" version of iMovie, I only take exception to calling the new app iMovie. This would be like replacing ms word with ms works. Changing the target users midstream is not a good idea.

GFLPraxis
Aug 14, 2007, 01:41 PM
I may not have been the 'target' user, but the people I (would have)recommend it to are. They are just average computer users who every now and then want to post something funny to Youtube. And that almost always means some sort of audio editing. Some of them are almost completly computer illiterate, but dragging an audio clip onto a timeline is not exactly rocket science.

Again, you're talking with absolutely no understanding of what you're talking about. In iMovie '08, you drag your audio clip over a video clip and stretch it over the time span you want.

What's different about it?

Maybe try using the app before you bash it.

Read my post at the top where I replied to you earlier.

sanford
Aug 14, 2007, 01:46 PM
I have to say I can't see a problem. I'm in the "prior iMovie versions are too complex" for the kinds of quick compilation and burn or store I want to do with nothing more than home videos of the our kids. I like to think I'm not an idiot, but the often mincing, meticulous, days-consuming editing of film and video to produce a nice looking result for professional or amateur purposes is not my thing. I respect those who have the talent and training for that work, even as advanced hobbyists -- hell, I love movies -- but I frequently found myself frustrated with the depth of control available in previous versions. '08 suits me just fine.

But I don't see what the problem is for anyone at this point. Apple has provided as a free download the previous version of iMovie HD ('06) -- correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume they can exist side-by-side on the same Mac -- making both the advanced tools of the previous versions and the enhanced simplicity of the new software available to iLife '08 users.

milo
Aug 14, 2007, 01:46 PM
how do you come to the conclusion that the old imovie has less appeal than the new one?

Public reaction. I've seen tons of people who are raving about the new version, and a few complaining. And most of those complaints have been saying that they want FCE features at an iMovie price.

But others might - and despite the argument that 08 is what is etc - when else in the history of software has removing useful functionality been a good move?

When it helps ease of use on an app intended for beginners. And when the "useful" functionality isn't actually considered useful by many users and just gets in the way.

johngordon
Aug 14, 2007, 01:52 PM
The timeline is no longer needed; scrolling the mouse through the video works just as a timeline would, and since you can also set it to show the videos in anywhere from 1-second to 5 minute increments, it can function exactly as a timeline even in view.

Complaining that iMovie '08 lacks a timeline is like complaining that you can't surf the web on an iPhone without a mouse. You're USED to a mouse, but the skimming concept is an entirely new design paradigm that completely negates the need for a timeline.

As far as audio...I don't see much missing here. The only thing missing is audio rubberbanding; but since you can have tracks fade in and out when other tracks come in, I haven't had any need for it. Regardless, you're putting a double standard here.


Good points to be fair. I only had a chance to have a quick play so far.

With the audio, if you have a track, and would normally have it fade out half way through, and another track fade in - can you do that in 08 at all?

sanford
Aug 14, 2007, 01:55 PM
Again, you're talking with absolutely no understanding of what you're talking about. In iMovie '08, you drag your audio clip over a video clip and stretch it over the time span you want.

What's different about it?

Maybe try using the app before you bash it.

Read my post at the top where I replied to you earlier.

I really have to agree with GFLPraxis. It's become easier to use without sacrificing too many features. It is after all not even the limited-feature version of their professional video editing program. I can understand why some people want more -- again, I think Apple has addressed this by making the old version available for download in case '08 is your first version or you've lost '06, or sold or given it away with the system software of a used Mac.

But the thing is, I don't want go through all that to, as someone put it, "slap together" some creatively endowed home videos in half an hour. I understand that some people do, and they'll gladly spend days on a sublime ten minute segment. Believe me, most of you wouldn't want to do what in my profession I feel I have to do with words; for me it's perfecting, for you it would be a grind. I like the no-grind version of iMovie.

EagerDragon
Aug 14, 2007, 01:55 PM
My biggest complain with iMovie 06 was the inability to create a library of clips that I can use in multiple movies. Everything was oriented to a project and if I wanted to import anything to the project I had to import from camera again or export clips to QT and then import them into the project. This was not optimal.

Have this been solved in the new version???
It looks to me (have not used new version yet) like it has a library of clips, but I am not sure if you can organize the clips in any way. Anyone that can take the time to describe how that works, would be appriciated.

sanford
Aug 14, 2007, 01:58 PM
Good points to be fair. I only had a chance to have a quick play so far.

With the audio, if you have a track, and would normally have it fade out half way through, and another track fade in - can you do that in 08 at all?

I think you'd have to trim the track -- you can do it in QT Pro, and of course there are other audio editors; would GarageBand do it? -- to the length you wanted and likewise trim the next track, then setting the first to fade into the second. (I never could figure out in iMovie HD '06 how to get a track to end early without what seemed a lot of awkward effort, so I often edited source tracks down in QT Pro, anyway.)

InLikeALion
Aug 14, 2007, 01:58 PM
I don't even use iMovie and I can't believe the ridiculous apologetic attitude in this thread. I'm outraged on behalf of iMovie users, whoever they might be.

Let’s be clear about what happened here. Apple totally killed iMovie, wrote a different app and took the name iMovie from the recently killed app and pasted it on the new project.

Now, I think iMovie 8 looks like a great program. It has lots of cool features. But the question remains, why weren’t these features added to the old iMovie? Or even better, just made into a separate program? They could have iMovie for editing and this “new program” for organizing and uploading.

But that’s not what happened. Imagine if, when Garage Band was new, they had killed iTunes and simply given Garage Band the iTunes name instead. So you have a program named iTunes that makes music, but no longer organizes it and syncs to the iPod.

Would you have reacted to that news with these comments?

• I’m sure they’ll work the bugs out.
• You can still use the old iTunes, it’s a free download!
• New iTunes lets you make music. That’s new and cool!
• I'm sure it will be refined in future versions.

Those would be terrible things to say in that situation and the same thing applies here. I’m surprised more of you don’t seem to care about this.

I think this the stance most people should have. Even if you don't use it (i haven't really since I moved up FCS1, but still use it for some small stuff occasionally), you have to see what a slap in the face this is to people who are consumers but like making "MOVIES". I think the point about garageband is very poignant.

It was the power of this and other iApps that have made me so highly recomend Apple's computers to my creative friends. I remember how I had wished I had grown up on macs so I could have gotten my feet wet in film making in HS, instead of waiting well into college to have those types of tools at my disposal. But now? No audio editing, no effects, etc?

I think, as other have said, this should have been something parallel such as iVideo, or rolled out within a new iMovie update, with the old power still accessible through an advanced view. I feel its just like their insane decision to declare that everybody wants only glossy/glassy displays. I know many graphic design labs and even design businesses that us iMacs as main machines. We should have the options to have matte, if that is what our tastes are or our needs. Sheesh.

drimmen
Aug 14, 2007, 01:58 PM
I installed iLife '08 on my wife's blackbook last night and played with the new iMovie. My video editing experience is practically nil, even for home use. I've only used iMovie '06 HD a handful of times, but enough to know that I'll never use it again now that I've got '08. I whipped up a quick home movie with a few clips, music, and title; it was a fun and intuitive experience. Most of my time was spent skimming all of my short clips that had been buried and forgotten in iPhoto, but are now readily available in their own gallery within the app. It's more anecdotal evidence, but I am digging the new iMovie.

Wild-Bill
Aug 14, 2007, 01:59 PM
I would love it but I have a PowerBook and it does not run on G4.

Yes it does. Google for the hack.

evilgEEk
Aug 14, 2007, 02:04 PM
I may not have been the 'target' user, but the people I (would have)recommend it to are. They are just average computer users who every now and then want to post something funny to Youtube. And that almost always means some sort of audio editing. Some of them are almost completly computer illiterate, but dragging an audio clip onto a timeline is not exactly rocket science.

How about you use it before rushing to judgment, eh?

And why can't you recommend a Mac to friends anymore when iMovie '06 is still available?

jonatron
Aug 14, 2007, 02:04 PM
I don't know if this has been posted elsewhere but when I installed
iMovie '08 (from disc) it created a folder within the applications folder
that says iMovie HD. It has the older version in it and it still works as well.
Not that I've had any problems with iMovie '08 or anything, I just thought
for those that were having issues they could just continue to use the older
version untill some sort of fix was announced. :)

This is exactly what happens when install the ilife disc.

I dont understand why everyone is so upset. I now have TWO applications. One that i was used to and one thats looks even better (even though ive not had much chance to play with it). Thumbs up from me!!

mklos
Aug 14, 2007, 02:13 PM
I have a simple solution....

If you don't like it, don't buy it! Doesn't that make more sense than bickering back and forth. Nobody is making you get the new iLife suite (unless you get a new Mac). iLife '06 is easily obtained if you don't like the '08 features.

Virgil-TB2
Aug 14, 2007, 02:23 PM
i do not try and make myself out to be a hollywood producer, but there are features in 06 that i will miss. i may not be a pro, but i don't think audio syncing and timeline editing are pro features.
Agreed on the audio, but not necessarily on the timeline. I find our users rarely discover the timeline view in the old iMovie and just use the clip view. So (again without seeing it), it could be argued that dealing with the movie as a series of clip objects like that works fine for many folks and that the timeline is a "pro" thing although I am not totally convincing myself even as I write that. :)

... and perhaps you should try the new version before your critique. not trying to pick a fight. honestly. just a friendly suggestion. you will find, i think, that 08 is a great ap, but those missing features truly are missing.

It's possible that, (like many of us), I get a bit over-enthusiastic when making a point sometimes.
Thanks for the correction.

On the other hand, hyperbole is kind of the "staff of life" when it comes to technology discussions on the internet. ;)

johngordon
Aug 14, 2007, 02:39 PM
Public reaction. I've seen tons of people who are raving about the new version, and a few complaining. And most of those complaints have been saying that they want FCE features at an iMovie price.

No - not FCE features at all - existing iMovie features, surely?

When it helps ease of use on an app intended for beginners. And when the "useful" functionality isn't actually considered useful by many users and just gets in the way.

But that's my point - it needn't get in the way at all.

The default area where you drag clips audio etc is the top left. But like Aperture, you can re-arrange it, so that it could be all along the bottom.

You can view the audio waveform - but if there was an option to simply view the waveform beneath the video thumbs, and have a bit of control over the audio - then how would that get in the way if you had the option of just not using it?

sigamy
Aug 14, 2007, 02:44 PM
the workflow for DVD creation in iMovie 08
is terrible. SD footage is converted to H.264 first and then rendered to MPEG2.

Cutting is quick and fun. I miss effects and themes.

johngordon
Aug 14, 2007, 02:44 PM
Again, you're talking with absolutely no understanding of what you're talking about. In iMovie '08, you drag your audio clip over a video clip and stretch it over the time span you want.


Ah - OK - so what you can do is drop your audio in, shorten it's length over the video, and it'll fade out at that point.

Which is essentially doing the same as fading the audio out at a point, and splitting it? That kinda makes sense.

Need to have a longer play next time I'm in the Apple store.

numlock
Aug 14, 2007, 02:52 PM
Public reaction. I've seen tons of people who are raving about the new version, and a few complaining. And most of those complaints have been saying that they want FCE features at an iMovie price.


obviously thats were we differ. i dont consider something an FCE feature and not an imove feature just because its been yanked from the latest imovie release.

I also dont think you should have to pay 300$ for an app with a timeline view atleast no more so than i should have to pay for iwork to get a ruler in a text application

gifford
Aug 14, 2007, 02:59 PM
Again, you're talking with absolutely no understanding of what you're talking about. In iMovie '08, you drag your audio clip over a video clip and stretch it over the time span you want.

What's different about it?

Maybe try using the app before you bash it.

Read my post at the top where I replied to you earlier.

No I haven't used it yet, but from what others have said on here, the timeline is missing, along with effects, and most importantly audio editing. Sounds an utterly stupid move to me. I haven't used it yet, but I bet a fiver I hate it when I do.

kddpop
Aug 14, 2007, 03:17 PM
I have no idea what ever gave you that idea.

He was happy with the earlier version. That doesn't make him the target user.

The target user for this sort of apps is the lowest common denominator, make it usable for people who know the bare minimum about computers and video.

They missed the target with 06, the fact that normal folks were unhappy and FCP users were happy is evidence of that. With 08 they seem to have hit the bullseye.

No I haven't used it yet, but from what others have said on here, the timeline is missing, along with effects, and most importantly audio editing. Sounds an utterly stupid move to me. I haven't used it yet, but I bet a fiver I hate it when I do.

those things are missing. and i miss them.
but i really dont hate imovie 08. the improvements they made are excellent. really stunning. i will be an avid imovie 08 user (no pun intended)

my problem, however, is that the improvements did not necessitate removing the now missing features (especially audio editing). it would not have made it anymore complicated to create a quick movie if there was also an option to control audio levels etc.

im hoping that updates to imovie 08 will include a equally stunning improvement on the way we can control audio.

~kyle

GFLPraxis
Aug 14, 2007, 03:24 PM
Ah - OK - so what you can do is drop your audio in, shorten it's length over the video, and it'll fade out at that point.

Which is essentially doing the same as fading the audio out at a point, and splitting it? That kinda makes sense.

Need to have a longer play next time I'm in the Apple store.

Yeah; also, if you stack audio on top of each other you can have the lower audio fade as the higher audio comes on.


Good points to be fair. I only had a chance to have a quick play so far.

With the audio, if you have a track, and would normally have it fade out half way through, and another track fade in - can you do that in 08 at all?
Yup, without any trouble at all. Drag and drop audio over a clip, grab the handle at the end and drag it back to cut it and drag another audio clip at the end. It'll automatically fade it.

I made both of these in iMovie really quick (apologies for bad camera on the first vid):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OHLhAxpC_4A
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Bz6PDv5UpXw

It's basically just short clips with voiceover and light music behind.

If you have trouble with the handlebars, you can also right click on any audio track and hit "Trim Audio" and a little editor comes up.

sanford
Aug 14, 2007, 03:31 PM
This is exactly what happens when install the ilife disc.

I dont understand why everyone is so upset. I now have TWO applications. One that i was used to and one thats looks even better (even though ive not had much chance to play with it). Thumbs up from me!!

Ha! I never even noticed. After I got home from the Apple Store and installed off the DVD I just used the dock icons to get to the new applications. But, yeah, the previous version is still there in its own folder. And Apple has made it available for download for free in case this is your first version of iLife or you tossed the old version that was placed in the separate folder. Why are we apologetic? Apple doesn't really need to apologize for anything. All the features are still there: they're just in two different applications; take your pick: more features or greater simplicity. Use one or the other or use both. Up to you.

Me, I prefer the new version. And that's no apology. I like the simplicity because it's all I want or need. Indeed after playing around with the new iMovie I'm sure I'll actually use it a bit as opposed to rarely with the more complex previous version. (I'm not, as someone put it, learning disabled in iMovie use; it's just that meticulously editing videos is not how I want to spend my time: I want point, click, video and I'll sacrifice depth of control for that.) Others who want more robust editing features, you've still got them.

fadetowhite
Aug 14, 2007, 03:32 PM
And again, iMovie isn't really intended for you. You honestly expect a $16 program to be "the best for trying to teach the ins and outs of video/audio editing"?

And most of those complaints have been saying that they want FCE features at an iMovie price.

WTF are you on about, Milo? Did you even read what I wrote?

iMovie is definitely "intended for me." Well, iMovie '06 is and '08 isn't...

'06 has enough functionality to begin teaching about video/audio editing. '08 basically throws that out the window in favour of an overly-simplified video creation tool. The ability to do cut-aways, ramp audio, etc. is very important to me, to show my students the basics. And unfortunately, as I wrote above, we can't run FCE, so iMovie '06 is the perfect solution for us, and we'll be staying with it until our eMacs die a horrible death.

People do not want FCE features at an iMovie price. Nearly everyone complaining about '08 is only saying that they would like the iMovie '06 features in '08! Not anything more advanced from FCE or FCP.

GFLPraxis
Aug 14, 2007, 03:40 PM
I don't even use iMovie and I can't believe the ridiculous apologetic attitude in this thread. I'm outraged on behalf of iMovie users, whoever they might be.

And I pity those of you who are too blinded to see the usefulness of this app.

Have you considered that there are those of us that actually LIKE it, and are not just being apologetic? Oh no, everyone must feel as you do.


Let’s be clear about what happened here. Apple totally killed iMovie, wrote a different app and took the name iMovie from the recently killed app and pasted it on the new project.

The same way they totally killed OS 9, took the name Mac from the recently killed operating system and pasted it on this new UNIX-based project?

Yeah. And it turned out much better, too.


Now, I think iMovie 8 looks like a great program. It has lots of cool features. But the question remains, why weren’t these features added to the old iMovie?

The same reason the iPhone's features weren't just added to the existing iPod. The new iMovie has an entirely new design paradigm that negates the need for a timeline and furthermore requires a new interface for a video library. With all the bloat already existing in iMovie (it's been around since OS9) it was probably simply EASIER to make a new app.


Or even better, just made into a separate program?

They did; that's why iMovie 06 stays on the computer when you install it.

They could have iMovie for editing and this “new program” for organizing and uploading.

Erm, the new app is for editing, not organizing.

But that’s not what happened. Imagine if, when Garage Band was new, they had killed iTunes and simply given Garage Band the iTunes name instead. So you have a program named iTunes that makes music, but no longer organizes it and syncs to the iPod.

This is an incredibly bad illustration; iTunes stores music and GarageBand makes it. BOTH versions of iMovies are designed for editing movies (they both do the same thing), the new one also can store them too.

The new iMovie works spectacularly. Yes, they removed the video effects and audio rubberbanding (contrary to FUD, you CAN still edit audio, and even if you couldn't you can fire it off to GarageBand). But honestly, I didn't even notice before I read this forum; I've been making videos far faster than I ever could have in iMovie

MacHiavelli
Aug 14, 2007, 03:42 PM
Because there is too much stock left in the Inventory to change them all, its a Free up date from
apple.com/uk/ilife/uptodate you just pay P&P

Thanks for that, millypede :D

Clive At Five
Aug 14, 2007, 03:43 PM
People do not want FCE features at an iMovie price. Nearly everyone complaining about '08 is only saying that they would like the iMovie '06 features in '08! Not anything more advanced from FCE or FCP.

Wisest "newbie" I've seen in a while. Bravo.

I keep trying to say this same thing on the Apple Insider boards but you put it so eloquently.

"People do not want FCE features at an iMovie price... they want iMovie '06 features in '08!"

Beautiful. You will make a fantastic regular. Welcome to [posting on] the boards.

-Clive

GFLPraxis
Aug 14, 2007, 03:50 PM
No I haven't used it yet, but from what others have said on here, the timeline is missing, along with effects, and most importantly audio editing. Sounds an utterly stupid move to me. I haven't used it yet, but I bet a fiver I hate it when I do.

You seemed to have completely missed my earlier post, so let me say it again.

Skimming is a new design paradigm. You don't NEED a timeline because skimming covers all the functions a timeline had.

Additionally, you CAN set it to display video clips' size based on their length, so it essentially IS the same thing as a timeline. I hardly use that unless I have a really long clip though, because it's unnecessary.

As far as audio editing, really, all it is missing is audio rubberbanding. It's got multiple audio tracks allowed (in fact, more than the original iMovie; I just tried throwing 14 audio tracks on one video with no problem), noise reduction, cropping, fading in and out, and you can export it to garageband if you need anything else.


You are being incredibly negative over a product you have never tried and clearly don't even understand the featureset of.

Anonymous Freak
Aug 14, 2007, 03:53 PM
The new iMovie works spectacularly. Yes, they removed the video effects and audio rubberbanding (contrary to FUD, you CAN still edit audio, and even if you couldn't you can fire it off to GarageBand). But honestly, I didn't even notice before I read this forum; I've been making videos far faster than I ever could have in iMovie

I like the new iMovie better for starting a simple project from scratch. But for my existing projects, it's rubbish.

While I have figured out how to do the limited in-app audio editing, I haven't figured out how to send a movie to GarageBand for audio editing yet. I notice that GarageBand also no longer has a "Movie Soundtrack" option when starting it up.

GregA
Aug 14, 2007, 04:02 PM
One of the biggest problems we have with making iMovies is that the average computer (eMacs or iMacs), has about enough room on the hard drive to store the raw video for maybe two iMovie projects. It's a constant battle with external drives and clearing space on the main drive when people are working in a lab environment. Given that, how useful is a video "cataloging" application (like iPhoto is for photos), when space is at such a premium? If you go out with a miniDV camera for the day you can easily collect a full tape worth of footage. If you do that twice and the hardrive is full, what's the point of the cataloging part?
I'm wondering about that myself. A few people have said that external drive content will appear or disappear when drives are connected - that's great. But it still requires buying many external drives.

My mother edits alot of video - and she's not a professional. She's seen me extract audio and move it around (see my future post :) ) but she really doesn't get it - so not having the feature won't bother her. She's not professional but she shoots alot of video - how many external drives will I have to add to her laptop? Can she mark the clips she's working with before she disconnects the external drive, so she can make movies while away from home?

I guess.... perhaps Apple has an answer to the number of external drives.
... can iMovie08 use DVDs in a similar way to connecting an external disk (ie: insert the DVD, and its "new" clips appear in the library?)
If I can move the clips from an imported video to a DL-DVD, that may solve the multi-disk issue.

johngordon
Aug 14, 2007, 04:32 PM
Yeah; also, if you stack audio on top of each other you can have the lower audio fade as the higher audio comes on.

Yup, without any trouble at all. Drag and drop audio over a clip, grab the handle at the end and drag it back to cut it and drag another audio clip at the end. It'll automatically fade it.

I made both of these in iMovie really quick (apologies for bad camera on the first vid):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OHLhAxpC_4A
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Bz6PDv5UpXw

It's basically just short clips with voiceover and light music behind.

If you have trouble with the handlebars, you can also right click on any audio track and hit "Trim Audio" and a little editor comes up.

Thanks for that - doesn't sound so bad in the end - will have to have a good play on Friday afternoon!

The other thing I thought I'd read was that there was no rendering - you just add a transition, and that's it - no need to render - is that right?

And the same with photos' ken burns effects - can you just apply the effect, drop them in and that's it?

If so - that will add up to a huge timesaver.

GFLPraxis
Aug 14, 2007, 04:39 PM
Thanks for that - doesn't sound so bad in the end - will have to have a good play on Friday afternoon!

The other thing I thought I'd read was that there was no rendering - you just add a transition, and that's it - no need to render - is that right?

And the same with photos' ken burns effects - can you just apply the effect, drop them in and that's it?

If so - that will add up to a huge timesaver.
Exactly; and that's why I love it. There's no import time to bring in a new clip, no render time for transitions, etc. Everything is seamless drag-and-drop like editing text. The only wait time is the final export.

GregA
Aug 14, 2007, 04:47 PM
I tried again a few weeks ago when my daughter was born, to make a movie about her to send out. Again frustration, and this was only with 1 hour of clips.

With iMovie '08, I tried again. Did a 5 minute video from 1 hour of clips in 10 minutes.

That's great. I will be buying the new iMovie when I get back home, and working on my wedding video... should be a great test of iMovie 08.

You can't really do cutaways with iMovie 08 and kids love all of 06's effects.

That's my main concern, I use cutaways alot. I often have a longer main scene plus a good few seconds of related video which I overlay on the main scene ("paste over at playhead", which keeps the main scene's audio). Also, if my main scene shakes/moves badly or goes out of focus, I can put the related video in that spot, so people never see the shake. It looks and sounds so much more professional.

However... I know many people don't find this easy. Similarly, having the audio from one scene extend 10 seconds into the next scene works great in iMovie06.. but it's not easy for many people.

All up, it sounds like they would need the timeline view to effectively manage the audio changes I'd like... but time will tell when I try this next week

You can (still) import your project into GarageBand to do the audio editing, and crossfade to your heart's content... and add as many audio tracks as you want.

I don't think that will work for what I need.

I guess that within iMovie08, you can extract all the audio from a clip, then you could cut the clip up, and overlay the original audio? (... which would work as long as you can turn off the clips' audio)

You can also add your chapter markers for iDVD there (which is another painful omission from iMovie '08, along with no effects other than color correction...)

Can you? Good. I'd like chapter markers for the beginning of the ceremony, end of ceremony, entrance to reception, speeches, bridal waltz... it makes it much easier to skim to what you want on the DVD.

And most of those complaints have been saying that they want FCE features at an iMovie price.

It will be interesting to see Apple's reaction to this feedback. FCE is not nearly as easy to use as iMovie 06 was. Will Apple build missing feature into iMovie08(.1)? or will the next FCE be made much easier (& a little cheaper?)

... expect a $16 program...
It's not $16. It happens to be bundled. I'll be paying US$80 for 2 programs - iPhoto & iMovie (while Apple gives me some extras I don't want).

offwidafairies
Aug 14, 2007, 05:34 PM
Im yet to try iMovie 08 but i did use iMovie06 a bit and im all for anything quick and simple to use. If you want features use FCP or Premier. Although I agree that an advanced and a simple mode would have been nice to choose from...

g3jedi
Aug 14, 2007, 06:08 PM
Personally, I didn't use the old iMovie very much because I felt it was more complicated than it had to be. However, if you've ever tried using Windows Movie Maker, you'll appreciate how fast it is.

I think it would have been wise to have two different editing modes, simple and advanced and the simple mode could be the new one.

I found that the new iMovie is VERY easy and I now enjoy making movies again. The audio controls is about the only thing I would miss on the old one but it's not a deal breaker for me. It's easier to use and I find making movies fun again.

Also with the new iMovie, my movies seem more clear and smaller in size. I really think there's more pluses than minuses.

I think Apple directed the new iMovie at a person like myself. One that didn't really make movies often because it was more work than you wanted to do and the new one is just so simple, even a child could do it.

If you read through a lot of the posts on this subject on the web most of the ones that reference Windows Movie Maker talk about how horrible it is and that iMovie '08 is too much like it.

iMovie was (is) not too hard to use. I could edit through 2 hours of video in just a few minutes, trimming out dead space and the back of the lens cap. It's not hard! One parent commented that his kids are complaining that iMovie '08 lacks features. That's children complaining. Evidently they didn't need it to be easier

typecase
Aug 14, 2007, 06:36 PM
I don't believe it. I realize I'm on a Macintosh board, and God knows I love my Mac but people apologizing for Apple's lack of foresight here is frustrating and embarrassing. iMovie HD had the perfect mix of features for me. I loved it. The new version sucks. I'm not going to try to put a shiny happy face on this. I'm gonna say just how I feel. Apple simply tossed the baby out with the bathwater on this one and it's okay to say the product sucks. Really.

The few people that seem to be happy with it are those that would buy some Final Cut product anyway. I don't want to have to spend hundreds of dollars more to get what I already had.

Apple could have made this new version of iMovie easy to use AND retained all it's features. They could have toggled the view options in a preference pane. While Apple is offering iMovie HD for new iLife users, it seems more of consolation rather than something to pat them on the back for. iMovie HD would have been great with a slightly updated feature set.

The new version sucks. Plain and simple. Don't apologize for Apple despite your love for them.

ErikGrim
Aug 14, 2007, 06:59 PM
I wrote an article about this here:
http://ekv.newsvine.com/_news/2007/08/12/888331-apple-angers-imovie-users-over-upgrade-quashes-dissent

guzhogi
Aug 14, 2007, 07:15 PM
iMovie HD had the perfect mix of features for me. I loved it… Apple simply tossed the baby out with the bathwater on this one and it's okay to say the product sucks. Really.

The few people that seem to be happy with it are those that would buy some Final Cut product anyway. I don't want to have to spend hundreds of dollars more to get what I already had.

Apple could have made this new version of iMovie easy to use AND retained all it's features. They could have toggled the view options in a preference pane. While Apple is offering iMovie HD for new iLife users, it seems more of consolation rather than something to pat them on the back for. iMovie HD would have been great with a slightly updated feature set.

I totally agree! I haven't used the new version, but I know many of the features thrown out are ones I use and aren't too complicated for an average user. If you just want to put a bunch of clips together, you should be able to hide the extra features. If you want to use the timeline and the audio-editing and effects, you shouldn't have to pay more than $200 more for what you used to get for $79. For all those that say that a $16 program shouldn't get these feautures. Why not? As I said, if you don't need these features, you should be able to hide them when you don't want/need them and show them when you do.

But the new iMovie does seem to have good features. I like how you can slap together some clips. I also love the library thing and no rendering until the end. Anyone know how that's done? Are the clips actually added to the clip or are just references used until you export the movie? If it's the first, the size of the project would be pretty big since you're copying all the clips. However, you'd have all the clips there and you'd be able to do whatever you want w/ the original. For the second option, project sizes would be smaller since you wouldn't have a bunch of copies of the same clip, but if something's on a removable drive (CD, external hard drive, etc.), it would be a bit hard to remember to keep them mounted.

TPALTony
Aug 14, 2007, 07:21 PM
I don't believe it. I realize I'm on a Macintosh board, and God knows I love my Mac but people apologizing for Apple's lack of foresight here is frustrating and embarrassing. iMovie HD had the perfect mix of features for me. I loved it. The new version sucks. I'm not going to try to put a shiny happy face on this. I'm gonna say just how I feel. Apple simply tossed the baby out with the bathwater on this one and it's okay to say the product sucks. Really.

The few people that seem to be happy with it are those that would buy some Final Cut product anyway. I don't want to have to spend hundreds of dollars more to get what I already had.

Apple could have made this new version of iMovie easy to use AND retained all it's features. They could have toggled the view options in a preference pane. While Apple is offering iMovie HD for new iLife users, it seems more of consolation rather than something to pat them on the back for. iMovie HD would have been great with a slightly updated feature set.

The new version sucks. Plain and simple. Don't apologize for Apple despite your love for them.

Here's another idea. Do us all a favor and stop assuming that because you don't like it the entire world must secretly not like it either and are just being Apple loyalists.

You think it sucks. Good for you. Now run along and bother someone else with your narrowminded views so the rest of us can actually debate the pros and cons.

Sheesh!

OutThere
Aug 14, 2007, 07:24 PM
Maybe some of this comes down to iMovie being *too* good and cannibalizing sales of FCE and FCP?

Umm, absolutely not. iMovie 6 definitely did nothing of the sort.

9Speed
Aug 14, 2007, 07:28 PM
The original iMovie was the whole reason I got into Macs in the first place. My wife and I had just bought a video camera to document the birth and growth of our daughter and there was absoultely no amatuer video editing capabilites in the PC world at the time. iMove was way ahead of its time and was the perfect way to introduce someone to the video editing world.

The original iMovie was fantastic for throwing together clips with simple transitions and cutting out junk video, but the more we used it the more we learned to use the more advanced features it offered. It had the simplicity of select-and-drag, but offered control over the creative process when you really wanted to fine-tune your movie. And when iDVD was released, there was nothing more impressive than publishing and burning DVDs with professional looking menus etc for family and friends. Every year I make a couple full-length DVDs for family and friends. iLife eventually became the ultimate "killer app" for converting video-editing friends from the PC.

I've used iMovie 08 for a bit now and I like some of the new enhancements it has, such as dragging the mouse over the clips to play them, not having to render individual clips and transitions, and the fact that it now organizes video clips taken with a digital camera etc. I can see how new users can think that this is a great update, but I believe that this only goes to show that iMovie 08 should have been built on top of iMovie HD 06 as a "beginner" or "quick" mode.

The biggest problem I see with iMovie 08 is that there is nowhere for the creative learner to go once the basic features have been mastered. With the older iMovies, you could just drag and drop the clips in order to put a movie together, but there was also this feeling of exploration and learning... like "let's see what else this thing can do!" I just don't get that at all with iMovie 08. Once people are done learning how to make their 5 minute You-Tube videos... well, what then? I wish I could say that iMovie 08 were an incredibly simplistic way to introduce people to the somewhat complex process of video editing, but instead it's nothing more than a clip assembler.

I really just don't see how Apple can justify essentially getting rid of one of its most feature-rich iLife applications... ESPECIALLY one of the original apps that showed the world that it's possible to use a simple program and still get incredibly impressive results. I'm not saying iMovie 08 has nothing to offer, what I am saying is that what it introduces is a far cry from what iMovie HD 06 already had. Apple should have used some common sense when updating iMovie instead of alienating its exsiting users.

chubad
Aug 14, 2007, 08:40 PM
After using 08 I'm afraid that I agree with the nay sayers. They should have made the new features of 08 as an "easy" mode in an updated 06 format.
The beauty of the old app is that it was simple, powerful and introduced people to video editing using a very simplified interface. Learning to edit on 06 with it's timeline, transitions, etc. provided a good fundamental start and offered a path to more sophistication through graduating to FCE or even FCP.
Sorry Apple. Bad move IMHO. :mad:

Ghibli
Aug 14, 2007, 09:12 PM
I made both of these in iMovie really quick (apologies for bad camera on the first vid):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OHLhAxpC_4A
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Bz6PDv5UpXw

It's basically just short clips with voiceover and light music behind.


If this is a sample of what you do, ok. iMovie 08 is the right thing for you.

If you need something more... iMovie 08 just sucks.

(Yes I have it, before youy ask, and I am really disappointed... what a downgrade...).

Ghibli
Aug 14, 2007, 09:15 PM
I wrote an article about this here:
http://ekv.newsvine.com/_news/2007/08/12/888331-apple-angers-imovie-users-over-upgrade-quashes-dissent

Absolutely wonderful. I agree at 100%. iMovie '08 is not an upgrade from iMovie '06. It's a (sad) downgrade!

KopThat
Aug 14, 2007, 10:26 PM
I have used iMovie HD quite extensively to create short movies of overseas trips for family and friends.

Most are used to working in the windoze world and are very impressed by the quality and presentation ( which the themes really help with )

All polished off of course by exporting to iDVD, and they just whack in their DVD player and voila. ( was never impressed by the drop in quality from what is viewed on the Mac to DVD - hope this has improved in 08 )

I have ordered my $AU129 family version of iLife 08, becuase over all the update to the suite of apps is worth while.

I have only seen the demos so far of the new iMovie, and read numerous comments, but I think it seems like 2 steps forward and 3 steps back

Forward:
Skimming and Cataloging
Speed in trimming clips

Backward:
No Themes
No Editing Audio
No Chapter Marks

I doubt that Apple will provide an update before the 09 version, (which is a shame) because I'm sure plenty of people that don't get new hardware will still buy the update, espcially as you can still use the old version

EagerDragon
Aug 14, 2007, 10:39 PM
Ok lets see this ..... I go buy 5 brand new Intel Macs, One does not work at all every part of it is melted, I complain and Apple provides me a free Mac PPC G4 machine to replace it, So I get a free g4 machine and get to keep all 5 Intel Macs even though 1 of them don't work, will not be repaired, and will not be replaced, yet Apple gets to keep the price of all 5 Macs.

Would you say this is fair? Is it a good value? Would you be happy?

I do not think so, by the same token why should I pay for iLife 08 full price but only receive 4 working applications for my current PB G4 machine? Like the above example, I get a copy of iMovie 06 which I have zero need for since I already have the previous version of iLife. So the free iMovie 06 has zero value to me and others.

Us PPC G4 users are getting screwed on iLife, specially if you have the previous version.

The least Apple could do is give us PPC users a 20% discount on the suite to make up for only 80% working applications.

If none of the apps would work on G4 machines I would not complain and just live with the old version of iLIfe. But when I buy a bag of 5 pounds of sugar, I would think I am entitled to all 5 pounds not just 4.

You may disagree, but I see another law suit.

KopThat
Aug 14, 2007, 10:43 PM
I'm not sure what you are complaining about,

you have 4 Intel iMacs ;)

EagerDragon
Aug 14, 2007, 10:44 PM
I'm not sure what you are complaining about,

you have 4 Intel iMacs ;)

Yet I payed for 5.

GFLPraxis
Aug 14, 2007, 11:02 PM
I wrote an article about this here:
http://ekv.newsvine.com/_news/2007/08/12/888331-apple-angers-imovie-users-over-upgrade-quashes-dissent

You really need to consider doing some research before you write such an overly opinionated article. It's clear going into it that you've got a negative slant, rather than an unbiased view, and you ever make false statements as to what features it lacks.

Gone were basic editing features like a timeline, the ability to sync video to audio - or do anything useful with audio at all, like say adjust the volume during a clip or fading in and out.

This, for example; iMovie 08 is fully capable of fading clips in and out. And the ability to sync audio? You can line up audio exactly where you want playback to begin and end. And timeline?


I still don't get it. EVERYONE who has complained about the lack of a timeline has been someone who has not used the application.

It's a new design paradigm; the timeline is IRRELEVANT when skimming completely negates the need for it! Additionally, there is a timeline since you can have it stretch clips in 5 second intervals (or anything from 1 second to a several minutes), functioning exactly like a timeline where you can judge the length of clips by looking at it.

asleitz
Aug 14, 2007, 11:07 PM
I loved iMovie HD. I tweaked it and added all the plug-ins I could. I made movies, adjusted timing on the audio tracks, put those "funny" transitions in. I will tweak iMovie 08, find all the hidden features, and just move on. It will do what I need it to do. Heck, I'm not still using iMovie 05. Plug-ins will come, updates will come, then we will say, "WOW what an app!" :apple:

GFLPraxis
Aug 14, 2007, 11:11 PM
If this is a sample of what you do, ok. iMovie 08 is the right thing for you.

If you need something more... iMovie 08 just sucks.

(Yes I have it, before youy ask, and I am really disappointed... what a downgrade...).


Really, these were some of my first videos. The other one I made using iMovie 06 (a video review) took me so long that I stopped making them out of time constraints. These ones barely took me longer than the actual videos were in length.

9Speed
Aug 15, 2007, 12:12 AM
I still don't get it. EVERYONE who has complained about the lack of a timeline has been someone who has not used the application.

It's a new design paradigm; the timeline is IRRELEVANT when skimming completely negates the need for it! Additionally, there is a timeline since you can have it stretch clips in 5 second intervals (or anything from 1 second to a several minutes), functioning exactly like a timeline where you can judge the length of clips by looking at it.

WRONG... Just because YOU think the timeline is irrelevant does NOT mean it is irrelevant for everyone else. I, for one, like to match particular musical cues with action going on in my movie. Yes, iMovie 08 allows me to skim and sorta do what I did in 06, but I have found it to be hit or miss at best. It was SO much easier with a timeline view... I could SEE the music cue and match it with the video. Seeing clips in 5 second intervals is NOT the same thing as having a timeline!!

Why would it have been so incredibly terrible for Apple to just have allowed the OPTION of using a timeline for those who like to organize their work that way?? Would including this option somehow make it a less useful or too overly complicated for users such as yourself to use?

Look, Apple had a great thing going on. The people who are not overjoyed about the new verison of iMovie are not upset about the new shiny interface... that could have been easily included on top of the already fantastic, easy-to-use, and powerful iMovie 06 as a "beginner" or "easy" mode. We are ticked off because Apple took away everything that we thought made iMovie so great and replaced it with the dumbed down and not nearly as flexible iMovie 08.

I'm glad the new iMovie 08 workes out for you and others who thought iMovie 06 was too complicated, but Apple really struck a blow to people who got into Macs in the first place because of the simplicity, power, and flexibility of what previous iMovie versions allowed them.

le_bigMac
Aug 15, 2007, 01:02 AM
I'm more upset over the fact my 12" powerbook can't run the app at all. Bit of a kick in the teeth considering I think this is an amazing laptop with one of the best form factors ever built.

I have a 15" PowerBook G4, nicely loaded, for whick I forked out over 2000 US dollars. It's only two years old and Apple won't even let me install iMovie, that's slightly insulting, especially considering the iLife 08 suite allows me to install everything else. Obviously I have other movie editing options, but I liked the simplicity of iMovie and don't think I should be punished into using an older version of iMovie or something like FCP which would be overkill anyway to edit something like a home movie.

sonicboom
Aug 15, 2007, 01:52 AM
I skipped the whole iMovie scene, and went straight to FCE for family video editing. I found FCE to be powerful, and let me get as creative as I needed to be, but using it is also time consuming. This lead to me having a stack of miniDV tapes sitting on my desk, waiting to be edited, and a wife who is not too pleased.

I was looking to simplify.

I think the new iMovie '08 interface and clip catalog looks pretty slick, and I was initially excited about it, but unfortunately I have to agree with the negative reviews.

The new iMovie '08 is too limiting, stifles creative options and the ability to create a polished result. While I want to simplify, I don't want to stupify. It seems fine for youtube content, but I'd want my son's soccer game video to have more flair.

The lack of the timeline doesn't bother me.

For my needs, lack of audio editing is probably the biggest hole. At the very least I'd want to have a music soundtrack, the ability to fade the original video audio in and out, and the ability to add a sound effect here and there. All at once.

Not too much to expect, especially considering the previous version did this.

surferfromuk
Aug 15, 2007, 02:57 AM
Gosh doesn't a little change upset the apple cart...

Fortunately in the real world normal everyday people will enjoy iMovie 8's excellence and simplicity.

Semi-professionals or serious video hobbyists should go buy Final Cut Express.

Ghibli
Aug 15, 2007, 04:12 AM
Really, these were some of my first videos. The other one I made using iMovie 06 (a video review) took me so long that I stopped making them out of time constraints. These ones barely took me longer than the actual videos were in length.

With iMovie 06 doing that videos wouldn't take more than 10 minutes. It's just a video with an added voiceover and a (plain and simple) soundtrack. No titles, no effects, no transitions.

iMovie 06 did all this and SO MUCH more. I agree that the skimming feature is cool (although very CPU intensive - that's why it needs a 1,9 G5 at least-) but that's all.

And really, adjusting a soundtrack in 5 seconds intervals (or even 1 second at a time)isn't really adjusting a soundtrack.. Timeline let's adjust it at a FRAME level (that is 1/24 of second for PAL or 1/30 of second for NTSC video).

iMovie 06 did this and SO MUCH more (again...).

uncle_sam_ie
Aug 15, 2007, 04:17 AM
So, Apple are letting you keep the old iMovie when installing the new one and allowing for a free download of the old one if you buy a new Mac( but for how long?)). That's great for now but, that means no more development of iMovie 06, and that really sucks. What will they be dumbing down next I wonder? Garage Band mybe?

Ghibli
Aug 15, 2007, 04:33 AM
Gosh doesn't a little change upset the apple cart...

Fortunately in the real world normal everyday people will enjoy iMovie 8's excellence and simplicity.

Until today I never (EVER) heard someone about iMovie 06 ease of use. iMovie 08 is not simple, is dumb.

What would you think if in iWork 09 instead of Pages you would find TexEdit renamed as Pages 09: "Hey, it let you do cut and paste and write your text. In less than five minutes. It cannot write in italics anymore, but who used it? It's a new paradigm!"

Are you kidding? c'mon...


Semi-professionals or serious video hobbyists should go buy Final Cut Express.

Although I just ordered a copy of the latter, I do not think that you need to be a semi-pro to want what iMovie 06 already did (we are not complaining for the lack of new features, we are complaining for the lack of ALREADY EXISTING features).

Ghibli
Aug 15, 2007, 04:50 AM
. I will tweak iMovie 08, find all the hidden features, and just move on. It will do what I need it to do. Heck, I'm not still using iMovie 05. Plug-ins will come, updates will come,


For the time being, there will be NO plugins (according to a geethree statement posted on http://www.geethree.com/slick/imovie8.html , there is NO SUPPORT for third party plug-ins).



then we will say, "WOW what an app!" :apple:

In the future (one, two, three years from now?) maybe. For now it just sucks.

Angsty
Aug 15, 2007, 06:42 AM
I don't even use iMovie and I can't believe the ridiculous apologetic attitude in this thread. I'm outraged on behalf of iMovie users, whoever they might be.

Let’s be clear about what happened here. Apple totally killed iMovie, wrote a different app and took the name iMovie from the recently killed app and pasted it on the new project.

Now, I think iMovie 8 looks like a great program. It has lots of cool features. But the question remains, why weren’t these features added to the old iMovie? Or even better, just made into a separate program? They could have iMovie for editing and this “new program” for organizing and uploading.

But that’s not what happened. Imagine if, when Garage Band was new, they had killed iTunes and simply given Garage Band the iTunes name instead. So you have a program named iTunes that makes music, but no longer organizes it and syncs to the iPod.

Would you have reacted to that news with these comments?

• I’m sure they’ll work the bugs out.
• You can still use the old iTunes, it’s a free download!
• New iTunes lets you make music. That’s new and cool!
• I'm sure it will be refined in future versions.

Those would be terrible things to say in that situation and the same thing applies here. I’m surprised more of you don’t seem to care about this.

Yep, I am complaining about the loss of functionality and the lack of ANY advice or warning of this fact by Apple. :mad:

I *especially* enjoyed Apple Australia telling me it was "my fault" for buying the product and not researching the web before I bought it. (I bought it on the day it was released). I asked them to point me to the Apple web site or any other information that advised me that I couldn't import my iMovie 6 project into iMovie 7 without losing all my work and effects and the de-scope of current functionality .... "you made the decision to buy it" was his reply.

*sigh*

If Apple hadn't been so arrogant or dismissive, I may have just eBayed it and moved on; now... I'm motivated to explore the Trade Practices Act and Consumer Laws in my state. (I think I've got 3 points of law to back me up so far...)

Its kinda sad to discover your revered 'idol' has big feet of clay, that if you scratch the shinny, happy surface, Apple are no different than any other company...:(

Wiser, but resolute now!

larriveejp
Aug 15, 2007, 08:52 AM
Enough with suggesting FCE as an alternative to iMovie. They are not remotely the same. Don't believe me? Create a pan using the "Ken Burns Effect" in iMovie and then do the same thing in FCE. Come back here and tell us which is faster when you are done (I know iMovie '08 has Ken Burns, my point is FCE is too cumbersome for those who were happy with iMovie '06 but like the improvements in '08).

Not to mention that it's 100% impractical for a portable user:

"500MB disk space required for applications; additional 16GB of additional storage space for Soundtrack and LiveType content (can be installed on separate disks)"

Pretending that FCE is a suitable replacement for the features of iMovie '06 is utter nonsense. I'd love to see that marketing campaign.

<cue freaky baby music>
iMovie '08: Hi, I'm iMovie '08. I can do things like video and audio scrubbing. I also keep all of your video in one place. Neat, huh?

iMovie '06: That's cool, '08. What about audio syncing and rubberbanding?

iMovie '08: That stuff is for suckers. Since some people don't use those things I thought it would be best to just get rid of it altogether. It's not like people had already gotten used to having those features at my price point. iLife '08 is only $79 you know.

iMovie '06: Uhhhhh. iLife '06 was $79 too.

iMovie '08: Well, that's why you're still here isn't it then?

iMovie '06: I guess, but wouldn't it have made more sense to retain the features of previous versions and add on the cool things you have brought to the party rather than forcing people into two camps? What's the point of a library if only one program can use it? If I could create something my way then import it into your library you might have something, but you break my titles, transitions, and audio.

iMovie '08: You know, I'd really prefer they spend 3 times as much for a program that is great, but wholly unnecessary for the needs of most iMovie users like Final Cut Express. People that like you are clearly video pros.

iMovie '06: I hate you.

:apple:
Mac
<end baby music>

Ubuntu
Aug 15, 2007, 08:59 AM
At least Apple is giving everyone a choice since iMovie HD 6 is a free download. You can use one or the other, or both, so nobody is being left out.

So... you pay for iLife 08, but you end up with the movie app you already had. I realise you get other good apps, but still, for those who upgraded, that's kinda unfair.

Much Ado
Aug 15, 2007, 09:10 AM
iMovie '08 = A super-charged, brilliant version of Magic-iMovie.

It aint an editing package, it's an assembling package. Great if you want a quick movie, terrible if you like control.

I own FCE, so i'm covered, but i feel sorry for the people seduced by the 'Get A Mac' ads. They are going to be bitter.

AJsAWiz
Aug 15, 2007, 09:48 AM
There's a pretty extensive iMovie 08 review here:
http://www.macworld.com/2007/08/firstlooks/flimovie/index.php

Although I miss some of the features in iMovie 6, this helps to put things in perspective. :rolleyes:

AJsAWiz
Aug 15, 2007, 09:51 AM
For the time being, there will be NO plugins (according to a geethree statement posted on http://www.geethree.com/slick/imovie8.html , there is NO SUPPORT for third party plug-ins).

In the future (one, two, three years from now?) maybe. For now it just sucks.

I'm a bit more optimistic about the presence of iMovie 08 plug ins popping up ;)

AJsAWiz
Aug 15, 2007, 09:53 AM
So, Apple are letting you keep the old iMovie when installing the new one and allowing for a free download of the old one if you buy a new Mac( but for how long?)). That's great for now but, that means no more development of iMovie 06, and that really sucks. What will they be dumbing down next I wonder? Garage Band mybe?

Actually GarageBand looks pretty slick. The addition of Magic GarageBand. It's great for the musically challenged

iSlicer
Aug 15, 2007, 10:37 AM
Well, I have just started playing with iMovie'08 and I am simply blown away. I have been using FCP for years as I shoot weddings as a business (yes, on average 3 a month) and I also "play" with making short films and attending festivals such as Tropfest. I will not move away from the power of Final Cut Studio 2, but I just cannot see what the majority of people are complaing about when they begin working with the new iMovie. Sure, the handful that have really made a business from working with iMovie, will need to change their thinking, and yes, that can take time, but if you are truly using it as a business, you would not have been using the themes that came with the old iMovie. OK, if you had purchased 3rd party plugins, that may suck, but at least you can still use the old iMovie and keep all your plugins.

Today I connected my Canon XH-A1 and imported some clips (simple, smooth and elegant interface). After the import, I was astonished at the speed in which iMovie could skim over the HD footage. Editing was a breeze and syncing a soundtrack was a no-brainer. Sure, all the little effects have gone, but who the hell would use them execpt maybe for the kids? The new titles are elegant and tasteful. Uploading to the web and youtube is a breeze and of course, you can still open up in iDVD and make yourself a nice DVD menu. What is the problem? Really?

* Again, the handful that made a business out of using iMovie may still do so, as iMovie'06 is STILL THERE!
* Plugins still work in the old iMovie.
* You can make elegant, high quality movies in a fraction of the time and all the tools you require are all layed out well.
* You have access to all your videos that you probably didn't watch anymore because they were burried in folders and forgotten.

Look, I don't know, I like it, that's all I can say. I think the whole suite is nice and iPhoto is really fast for me now. Especially on my MacBook Pro 17".

Just give it a go. Learn the new interface and churn out some video. If you are still not happy after you have put together a few videos, just rollback to iMovie'06. You still have the rest of the iLife suite for a BARGAIN price. Be happy with that.

larriveejp
Aug 15, 2007, 10:55 AM
Let's say Apple decides to remove RAW support from iPhoto. Most people have P&S cameras right? Who needs RAW. It's too complicated. Sure, a lot of people don't know it's there, but let's get rid of it anyway. What they don't know is somehow hurting them.

Would people then claim that you should have to buy Aperture if you want to use RAW? Based on this thread it sounds like it.

I see a lot of talk about how it's just as good, but the examples posted haven't exactly proven that theory. I'd like to see something with delicately synced audio using only chunks of any given song using only iMovie. I am not anti-'08, but I don't get the sentiment of thanking Apple for stripping features.

All it needs is the simple/advanced modes and this would be a mind blowing application. I like everything about it except the stuff they took out.

iMovie '06 as a consolation prize doesn't cut it. Why? If forced to choose one reason, it's the library in '08. Import your '06 movies into '08 you say? iMovie '08 kills the audio, titles, and transitions, so no thanks. This "A Tale of Two iMovies" kludge is worthy of Microsoft, not Apple. If I could import an '06 project intact I would have no beef. It would still be a kludge, but it would at least work.

g3ski
Aug 15, 2007, 11:37 AM
It took just 2 minutes to crash imovie'08....just playing around with the clips and moving them to the upper window (on a MBP with 3GB of ram)

iSlicer
Aug 15, 2007, 12:27 PM
I'd like to see something with delicately synced audio

If you want to find "delicately synced audio", then you always had to look at FCP.

Zukum
Aug 15, 2007, 12:48 PM
I disagree. There must be a large population of people like me who DO use the effects iMovie06 offers. I do videography as a side business and bring in about 10-20K per year doing weddings and events. Other videographers will want to abolish me from the professional community when I admit this, but I use iMovie for 99.9% of my editing because it's so quick and simple with all the effects, titles, and tools I need. Only for the most special of effects like multiple layered video tracks do I use Final Cut.


- Almost no one uses chapter markers, ever. This is only usefull if you are making a DVD which is actually rather difficult to do with the old iMovie in that the integration with iDVD is rather poor (in the old version). The number of our users that end up making DVD's out of their projects is a tiny fraction. Most users want to make a movie for a class project in an afternoon or less.

The integration between iMovie and iDVD is immaculate. I pump out one per week which look so professional and customized for my clients that it makes my colleagues working on Windows machines wonder why they waste so much time generating their low class and sloppy looking DVDs.


- Maybe one person out of a hundred uses the video effects (and we are talking about really low end users here "discovering" video for the first time).

I must be that "one person" because I'm here to say that the wash in's/out's, the high quality titles with beautifull fonts, and best of all the "soft focus" are VERY high quality effects that leave my brides in tears. It would take tons of time to simulate the same effect in Final Cut. I haven't seen iMove08 yet, but if these were dropped, it's a shame. I better start familiarizing myself more with FC.

I agree with you on the whole cataloging concept. It's not practical to just download all of your trips and home videos to your computer and expect to have them accumulate for as long as you'd like in the same way you can with photos. There's not room for more than a couple of hours of footage on a 200GB hard drive - and that's with standard definition, not to mention how much room high def must take up.

I guess the best part about iMovie was that it's free. Semi-pros like me will be forced to invest in pro software.

FoxyKaye
Aug 15, 2007, 01:10 PM
Hmmm... I've only ever used iMovie to create "Ken Burns Effect" movies that I export to FCP. If this is gone in the newest revision, I suppose I'll be one of the downloaders for the previous version when I upgrade.

Then again, I could just learn to do the same thing with FCP.

I think video is really intimidating to folks, and anything that makes it easier should be applauded. I don't really know if the majority of folks with camcorders are ever going to do more than burn DVDs for the family and upload to YouTube. I find the lack of timeline and multitrack sound/video editing in iMovie a PITA, but there's probably a bunch of folks for whom this is a relief.

larriveejp
Aug 15, 2007, 01:11 PM
If you want to find "delicately synced audio", then you always had to look at FCP.

That's just not true. Sure, I can do it better in FCE than in iMovie '06, but at least it can be done at all in '06. Dragging an audio clip around and adjusting length does not equal syncing.

How did splitting and rubberbanding become exclusive to FCE/P? FCE may be better than any version of iMovie, but that doesn't mean '06 wasn't "good enough" to do splitting and syncing for home movies.

Say I want to use a song with a recognizable intro, but it goes into 20 seconds of nonsense before it gets back to the part I want to use. I used to be able to cut out the fluff directly in iMovie. I can't now. I didn't need FCE to do this before, and having to keep a separate version of iMovie around to accomplish this now is crazy. This is especially annoying when you consider that the resulting movie created in '06 cannot be imported to my "library" in '08 once it's done.

Now showing: Your entire video library*.

*Unless you created it in iMovie '06.

Zukum
Aug 15, 2007, 01:18 PM
Umm, absolutely not. iMovie 6 definitely did nothing of the sort.

Um, actually he has a point. Maybe Apple was concerned that iMovie was cannabalizing sales of FCP. Per my previous post (around #152) I rack in 10-20K per year doing "professional" videos for weddings and events using iMovie.

Arnaud
Aug 15, 2007, 01:27 PM
So, I finally took the time to try out iMovie 08... Better do that, before adding any comments :)

True, there are some losses; but to my point of view, there are also huge improvements.

Biggest of all, I can finally use the whole screen of my iMac 24 :D
It was very sad in iMovie HD 06 to be stuck with some window constraints.

I'm also impressed by how much snappier it is ! iMovie HD was feeling always heavy, like they added and added on the code with each version, not taking into consideration the evolutions of the machine... Now, the effects are showed in real time! How could they not do that before...

So all in all, it feels really good, and easy to use :)

And I also have the impression that the iMove file is only containing the way the project is built, not anymore all the raw data. (I might be wrong on this, but that's what I saw). So if I'm right, that means also a very awaited storage improvement. With iMovie HD, working two different projects of the same tape, and having backups of both, ended up with 4 times the size of the whole raw material... It seems that now, you can backup your material on one side, and all the projects you want on the other side. I still have to figure out the options for "cataloguing", but it might not be so bad to centralize (maybe on an outside HDD), if you limit your duplications of video material.

But ok, I will miss the DVD chapter options, as well as some of the "advanced" effects, like speed and old etc... I was a heavy user of them.
We'll what comes in the future. I can always use iMovie HD for some extra work if needed...

Arnaud
Aug 15, 2007, 01:31 PM
Addendum...
The good thing of iMovie HD 06/iMovie 08 compared to FCE/FCP has always been its price. It is a shame that the sound control has been reduced in iMovie 08. However, FCE/FCP is not often an option for people who don't want to invest so much money in one program for holiday souvenirs. So, i'm not so much a follower of comments supporting the idea that any sound tricking should be done exclusively in FCE/FCP. Like saying you should not drive if you don't own a Porsche.

AJsAWiz
Aug 15, 2007, 03:28 PM
So, I finally took the time to try out iMovie 08... Better do that, before adding any comments :)

True, there are some losses; but to my point of view, there are also huge improvements.

Biggest of all, I can finally use the whole screen of my iMac 24 :D
It was very sad in iMovie HD 06 to be stuck with some window constraints.

I'm also impressed by how much snappier it is ! iMovie HD was feeling always heavy, like they added and added on the code with each version, not taking into consideration the evolutions of the machine... Now, the effects are showed in real time! How could they not do that before...

So all in all, it feels really good, and easy to use :)

And I also have the impression that the iMove file is only containing the way the project is built, not anymore all the raw data. (I might be wrong on this, but that's what I saw). So if I'm right, that means also a very awaited storage improvement. With iMovie HD, working two different projects of the same tape, and having backups of both, ended up with 4 times the size of the whole raw material... It seems that now, you can backup your material on one side, and all the projects you want on the other side. I still have to figure out the options for "cataloguing", but it might not be so bad to centralize (maybe on an outside HDD), if you limit your duplications of video material.

But ok, I will miss the DVD chapter options, as well as some of the "advanced" effects, like speed and old etc... I was a heavy user of them.
We'll what comes in the future. I can always use iMovie HD for some extra work if needed...

You have a point . . . well you've made several. At first the missing features are "blaring" but after using it for a while I did notice the improvements you mentioned. I especially liked the skimming feature. I think when compatible plug ins hit the market, I won't miss the previous version as much. Also, I had to take in account that this is not an upgrade or sequel to the former iMovie installment but a whole new program.

twoodcc
Aug 15, 2007, 04:17 PM
It's the first version, bound to be bugs. FCP was ridiculous in V1. I'm sure they'll work it out.

i hope so. i'm sure that they are working on it.

so far i don't think it's that bad, i'm just not used to it yet

johnmcboston
Aug 15, 2007, 06:17 PM
The Boston Globe had an AP reprint of a review of the new imacs (http://tinyurl.com/2z2blx). He hasn't used a Mac in a while and was commenting on ease of use. He comments:

Despite little experience with movie editing, it took me just half an hour to boil down an hour of footage into a 2-minute high-definition movie of my baby,

In a sentence, this is why imovie8 is now the way it is. Comment as we will of '06 vs '08, and miss features as we do, this is exactly what Jobs' goal was. (Not that I don't want some of those features back.. :)

Arnaud
Aug 15, 2007, 06:41 PM
...The more I use it, the more I like iMovie 08, I'm actually looking for some work to do with it now... :)

Few tips:
- you can easily spread the "events" containing the movie files on different HHDs, so you don't have to clutter your main drive; just pick another HDD when importing the movie. It still has to be copied, but ends up on a folder of the HDD. iMovie HD used to copy inside the iMovie file of the project. Part of the copying process is needed anyway for creating thumbnails. 7mn to copy a 1h DV tape (13Gb), 12mn for the thumbnails; you can then see your HDDs in the "Event Library" window; i'll fill these catalogs when I need them, it's just about shuffling your files around; not the best, but still better than iMovie HD.
- in the preferences, there is an option to add a few more features.

Hope that helps a little... :rolleyes:

Multimedia
Aug 16, 2007, 12:48 AM
I don't even use iMovie and I can't believe the ridiculous apologetic attitude in this thread. I'm outraged on behalf of iMovie users, whoever they might be.

Let’s be clear about what happened here. Apple totally killed iMovie, wrote a different app and took the name iMovie from the recently killed app and pasted it on the new project.

Now, I think iMovie 8 looks like a great program. It has lots of cool features. But the question remains, why weren’t these features added to the old iMovie? Or even better, just made into a separate program? They could have iMovie for editing and this “new program” for organizing and uploading.

But that’s not what happened. Imagine if, when Garage Band was new, they had killed iTunes and simply given Garage Band the iTunes name instead. So you have a program named iTunes that makes music, but no longer organizes it and syncs to the iPod.

Would you have reacted to that news with these comments?

• I’m sure they’ll work the bugs out.
• You can still use the old iTunes, it’s a free download!
• New iTunes lets you make music. That’s new and cool!
• I'm sure it will be refined in future versions.

Those would be terrible things to say in that situation and the same thing applies here. I’m surprised more of you don’t seem to care about this.Instead of bitching here or in addition rather, everyone with a problem with the new iMovie should complain loudly and daily using this link to the form (http://www.apple.com/feedback/imovie.html) which is also available inside iMovie under he iMovie Menu:

"Provide iMovie Feedback (http://www.apple.com/feedback/imovie.html)" :)

Be a squeeky wheel to get iMovie 6.0.4 features put back in iMovie 7.1 or 7 features added to iMovie 6.1

MrSmith
Aug 16, 2007, 01:21 AM
If you can't set chapter markers how do you export to iDVD and produce a movie with chapters??

GregA
Aug 16, 2007, 01:24 AM
just pick another HDD when importing the movie.
Can you import to the main HD, and move to an external (or network) drive later?

thejadedmonkey
Aug 16, 2007, 01:40 AM
Let's say Apple decides to remove RAW support from iPhoto. ...Would people then claim that you should have to buy Aperture if you want to use RAW? Based on this thread it sounds like it.


Actually, Apple added support for additional formate, not removed support...

At first I didn't like iMovie 08, but after using it a while, I can safely say that only the power users of iMovie (who could probably use FCE anyway) are going to be missing anything. For my mom or dad, iMovie 08 is a HUGE improvement. For me, it's an improvement. Once they add a timeline feature of sorts back in somehow, I don't know what more they would add. It's really an amazing program, and I think you should all really try it before bashing it due to a lack of this or that. Sure it's missing stuff, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have new, different ways to compensate.

Arnaud
Aug 16, 2007, 02:48 AM
Can you import to the main HD, and move to an external (or network) drive later?

You can certainly "import" again the movie saved in the event folder on your main HD to an external drive via iMovie 08, letting the software make the copy itself and create the extra folder of thumbnails (but that's a little fastidious). And then erase the original file on the main HD via iMovie 08.

I cannot try this now, but maybe you can directly copy via the finder the movie file and its thumbnails folder from the event folder on your main HD to an event folder on an external drive , skipping a redundant phase of creating the thumbnails - it will depend whether iMovie keeps a catalog somewhere else of the contents of its events.

The good thing is that "events" are stored in normal folders, whereas "projects" are kept in packages: it's easier to access the contents of the events folder from inside iMovie 08.

Mmm, hope i'm clear enough there... :p

NB: Now I'll have to figure out what it means regarding opening a project again, when the base video is gone from one HDD to the other, between buidling the project and storing it away... Maybe copying it back to the main HD prior to opening the project?

larriveejp
Aug 16, 2007, 08:49 AM
Actually, Apple added support for additional formate, not removed support...


Hence the analogy to a hypothetical decision to remove RAW support from iPhoto. It was an example of something many people would mistakenly label a "pro" feature to justify its hypothetical removal from iPhoto (much like the actual removal of rubberbanding from '08).

Again, needing something like rubberbanding doesn't mean you should have to use FCE/P. That's just ridiculous. Using iMovie '06 solves nothing because you can't import '06 movies into '08 correctly.

"But who needs rubberbanding in home movies? That's pro stuff?" Not at all.

Example: I made a short clip in '08. It has my son talking softly and an adult who is the type of person who speaks at a constant 118db. I have no way of turning it up so I can hear my son without blowing my speakers when the adult pipes in. Rubberbanding would solve this easily.

You may not think you need it now, but you may eventually find yourself in a situation in which your movie would be better if you had it. Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

I am not a hater of '08. I just think it has a lot of untapped potential at the moment. Hopefully some point releases will take care of this.

steve_hill4
Aug 16, 2007, 09:15 AM
I know this would be unlike Apple, but how about them doing something like an "iMovie Classic" that is essentially iMovie 06. They could bundle it with all new Macs, all copies of iLife 08 and make it a free download that would install only if iMovie 08 was present on the system.

I know you'd then officially have to have both versions on at all times, but it certainly would help people transition and if the features were missing, enable them to continue to use them for the foreseeable future.

AJsAWiz
Aug 16, 2007, 03:33 PM
http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/video/magnet.html
Magnet 1.5

About Magnet
Magnet is the easiest way to customize your movies and share them with your friends. With advanced motion tracking, the cat’s head will follow the same path as in the original movie. Using Magnet, you are able attach a picture or animation to a movie, to define a blur zone, or even to emit particles that follow the moving objects.

Using Magnet, you can add special effects such as replacing your own head with a cat head. More generally, you can attach an image to moving objects in a video, or attach animation, particles, or black (or blur) zones.

Just let your imagination go, and add glasses, a hat, a mask, tatoo.

What’s New in this Version
- Better User Experience
- Tighter integration with Quartz Composer
- Many new effects
- Motion filtering
- And many more

Although it's a stand alone app (not a plug in) it can be used with iMovie 08 movie files. I just dragged the iMovie 08 movie (file) into Magnet then rendered and exported it as a Quicktime movie. The effects are not plentiful but it's a start. :rolleyes:

milo
Aug 17, 2007, 10:17 AM
WTF are you on about, Milo? Did you even read what I wrote?
I certiainly did. I just don't agree with you. That's certainly no reason for you to act like an ass.

milo
Aug 17, 2007, 10:34 AM
No I haven't used it yet, but from what others have said on here, the timeline is missing, along with effects, and most importantly audio editing. Sounds an utterly stupid move to me. I haven't used it yet, but I bet a fiver I hate it when I do.

The others are mistaken, that's why you should actually use the app before complaining about it. Audio editing is certianly not missing, audio can be easily edited and levels set per clip. It doesn't have "automation" like garage band since volume can only be set per clip, but there is always the option to split chunks and assign different volumes to different parts.

I also dont think you should have to pay 300$ for an app with a timeline view atleast no more so than i should have to pay for iwork to get a ruler in a text application

I also disagree that there's no "timeline". There is a zoomable view that shows all or part of the timeline, it's just in a non-traditional window view that splits instead of one long line. If you absolutely must have the usual one-line view, I guess you wouldn't be happy about it, but I have no problem using it as a timeline. I just don't see what part of that functionality is missing, especially with the ability to watch and edit by "scrubbing" the video. It works extremely well and makes me wonder if it could be useful in pro audio and video apps.

my problem, however, is that the improvements did not necessitate removing the now missing features (especially audio editing). it would not have made it anymore complicated to create a quick movie if there was also an option to control audio levels etc.

But you CAN control audio levels, and you can edit audio. You can also fade and crossfade, and add sound effects, all things people have insisted are impossible in this thread. Are you talking about mixing via fader or drawing in volume curves? Or control over fade parameters?

Umm, absolutely not. iMovie 6 definitely did nothing of the sort.

And you know that...how?

milo
Aug 17, 2007, 10:50 AM
I have a 15" PowerBook G4, nicely loaded, for whick I forked out over 2000 US dollars. It's only two years old...

So does that mean you bought it after the intel switch was announced?

milo
Aug 17, 2007, 11:05 AM
For my needs, lack of audio editing is probably the biggest hole. At the very least I'd want to have a music soundtrack, the ability to fade the original video audio in and out, and the ability to add a sound effect here and there. All at once.

Another complaint I don't get.

You CAN have a music soundtrack. You can add as many sound effects as you want.

And really, adjusting a soundtrack in 5 seconds intervals (or even 1 second at a time)isn't really adjusting a soundtrack.. Timeline let's adjust it at a FRAME level (that is 1/24 of second for PAL or 1/30 of second for NTSC video).

Are you sure you've really used the app? I'm able to adjust the soundtrack at the frame level (to picture even, which makes it way easy). You don't need a traditional timeline to do frame accurate editing.

Say I want to use a song with a recognizable intro, but it goes into 20 seconds of nonsense before it gets back to the part I want to use. I used to be able to cut out the fluff directly in iMovie. I can't now.

I just tried it. Worked fine. Have you actually used the app?

larriveejp
Aug 17, 2007, 11:43 AM
I just tried it. Worked fine. Have you actually used the app?


Show me. I hear a lot of talk, but I have yet to see proof. Post up the clip and the project file so we can all learn from your mastery of the program. Better yet, if you have two macs, use the other one to show us video of how super fast and easy it was to split up video clips and click each one to set the audio levels.

Oh, and do it without using garageband or importing 5 versions of the same song. Show me a clip where you have taken a 5 minute song down to 3 minutes and synced it with events in your movie. Should take 5 minutes using this magical new interface.

Also, show me another one where you have alternating loud and soft audio in the same track where you have balanced the levels (Example: adult and a child talking). Easy in iMovie '06 using rubberbanding and waveforms. Nightmare-ish in '08.

Yes I have used it. No, it's not as easy as rubberbanding, and no you can't cut up a song in it like you could in '06. Rubberbanding is a far superior tool for editing levels. "Editing" audio at the clip level with a freaking dialog box is asinine.

I'm ecstatic for you if you like it, but using a dialog box to edit audio is ridiculous. Claiming that it's faster and easier than the rubberbanding and splitting in '06 is flat out grasping at straws.

Editing levels in '06:
1) Drag rubberband.
2) There is no step 2.
(Can be done at will throughout the timeline for the entire movie)

Editing levels in '08:
1) Click to select track.
2) Click volume adjust button.
3) Adjust slider.
4) Click Done.
(Must be done at the clip level.)

milo
Aug 17, 2007, 01:42 PM
It's really simple.

1 Drag in your music, trim the first ten seconds.
2 Drag in the music again after that, trim it to the other chunk

Done.

I'm not saying it may be as fast for you or that you will like it as much. I just take issue with saying "CAN'T BE DONE" which is flat out wrong.

Or is your objection having to drag it in again? I don't see what the problem is since it's not like it makes another copy of the song or something.

As for having clip based volume versus rubberband volume, personally I like having both. There are advantages to both. As you've pointed out, there are situations where you want continuously variable volume. But it's convenient to be able to adjust the volume of an individual sound without having to worry about what's before and after it on the same track. Or worry about tracks at all.

And for the record, I haven't claimed that the dialogue box is faster and easier than rubberbanding (although your description isn't really accurate since rubberbanding usually requires creating points at the beginning and ends of the parts where you want to change the volume). I just dispute the false claim that you can't edit audio or set audio volumes.

I generally like 08, but there certainly is room for improvement. I hope they add more features, I think it's a nice interface and they can put some things back in without making it less intuitive and end up with a better app than 06. But in the meantime, I think it's pointless to be dishonest about what the app can do and insist that things are impossible when they clearly aren't.

larriveejp
Aug 17, 2007, 02:19 PM
It's really simple.

1 Drag in your music, trim the first ten seconds.
2 Drag in the music again after that, trim it to the other chunk

Done.

That's not really what I am talking about. I know you can do "trimming" or whatever they are calling it now. However, it is done in an entirely different interface which makes it much more difficult to sync/cut than it would in a timeline. Waveforms below the actual video is the best/easiest way to do this.

I'm not saying it may be as fast for you or that you will like it as much. I just take issue with saying "CAN'T BE DONE" which is flat out wrong.

If we're playing lawyerball I suppose I have to give there. Although I would liken it to being forced to use a stick and some twigs to start a fire when I used to have a perfectly good flamethrower for the same task. It can be done, but it's so inefficient that most people probably won't bother.

Or is your objection having to drag it in again? I don't see what the problem is since it's not like it makes another copy of the song or something.

It was fast and easy, now it's tedious and inefficient. That's the problem. All these extra steps and somehow it's heralded as easier. Selecting video in '08 is certainly easier. Audio, not so much.

And for the record, I haven't claimed that the dialogue box is faster and easier than rubberbanding (although your description isn't really accurate since rubberbanding usually requires creating points at the beginning and ends of the parts where you want to change the volume). I just dispute the false claim that you can't edit audio or set audio volumes.


That's for one global edit to any volume track. Wash, rinse, repeat the steps I listed for additional changes. So if you have a stretch of 10 clips over 10 seconds it's 2 clicks in '06 and 40 clicks in '08 (unless there is a select all that I have missed, and I sure hope that's the case). How is that easy?

I generally like 08, but there certainly is room for improvement. I hope they add more features, I think it's a nice interface and they can put some things back in without making it less intuitive and end up with a better app than 06. But in the meantime, I think it's pointless to be dishonest about what the app can do and insist that things are impossible when they clearly aren't.

I generally like it too. There are just some questionable design choices that I hope are remedied in point releases or something like an "iMovie Pro/Director's Cut". FCE doesn't fit this purpose and it's laughable that people are so quick to suggest that it does.

larriveejp
Aug 17, 2007, 02:26 PM
Pogue chimes in on all this. (http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/17/apple-takes-a-step-back-with-imovie-08/)

(I think reg. is required and I believe it's free.)

AJsAWiz
Aug 17, 2007, 03:02 PM
If you can't set chapter markers how do you export to iDVD and produce a movie with chapters??

I think I just dragged the movie from Movie 08 into my iDVD project.

Setting chapter markers in iDVD
Within iDVD, you can add chapter markers to a movie that does not already have them. Chapter markers are necessary if you want to have a scene selection menu, just like commercial DVDs have, which allows viewers to go directly to specific scenes in your movie.

To set chapter markers in a movie:

Open a project and select the movie you want to add chapter markers to by clicking the button that links to it once.

Choose Advanced > “Create Chapter Markers for Movie.”

Click the up and down arrows in the dialog that appears to specify the frequency of chapter markers, in minutes, in the movie.

You can also type a number in the text field.

Click OK.

Now, when you double-click the name of the movie on the main menu, you access a submenu with Play Movie and Scene Selection buttons. When you click the Scene Selection button, you link to another menu that has a button to access each of the “chapters” you just created.

After chapter markers are placed, you can’t change them. Chapter markers are visible to viewers only via a scene selection menu. If you decide you want to ignore your chapter markers, simply select the Scene Selection button by clicking it once, and then press the Delete key.

Note that you can add chapter markers to more than one movie at a time by selecting multiple movies in your DVD menu before you choose Advanced > “Create Chapter Markers for Movie.”

Fluffymuff
Aug 17, 2007, 07:54 PM
It "Would Have" probably been better to send this comment via private message. Maybe I "Should Have" sent this as a private message to you. Online forums are not a great place for grammar police.
Arguably, "It 'Would Have' probably been better to send this comment via private message. Maybe I 'Should Have' sent this as a private message to you. Online forums are not a great place for grammar police" police.

Naimfan
Aug 17, 2007, 08:37 PM
I think iMovie 08 is a serious step backwards...

Sure, it's faster, but taking away the timeline? And effects? Etc.

Definitely will not be getting iLife 08.......at least, not until I get a new Mac, whenever that is!

Best,

Bob

iLifer08
Aug 19, 2007, 01:09 AM
Setting chapter markers in iDVD
Within iDVD, you can add chapter markers to a movie that does not already have them. Chapter markers are necessary if you want to have a scene selection menu, just like commercial DVDs have, which allows viewers to go directly to specific scenes in your movie.

The method you describe only places chapter markers at set intervals, which may not be of much use to people who want chapter markers at specific points. You can easily set custom chapter markers in GarageBand. As I have been learning iMovie '08, I have been writing up how to do stuff like this in a little blog. Here is the post on doing chapter markers in GarageBand:

http://imovie08.blogspot.com/2007/08/how-to-add-chapter-markers.html

Disclaimer: I do put ads up on this blog.

Angsty
Aug 19, 2007, 04:40 AM
Instead of bitching here or in addition rather, everyone with a problem with the new iMovie should complain loudly and daily using this link to the form (http://www.apple.com/feedback/imovie.html) which is also available inside iMovie under he iMovie Menu:

"Provide iMovie Feedback (http://www.apple.com/feedback/imovie.html)" :)

Be a squeaky wheel to get iMovie 6.0.4 features put back in iMovie 7.1 or 7 features added to iMovie 6.1

Done!.

Thank you for reminding me I had a means of venting my feelings and thoughts! :(

Squeak - squeak - SQUEAK!!!

happylittlemac
Aug 19, 2007, 07:01 AM
I for one are not happy with the new iMovie 08 app, I'd never done any video editing when I started using iMovie 06 and I found it very easy, it's pathetic to see the Apple Apologists convincing themeless that the removal of features that they once likely claimed to PC users to be fantastic example of what Apple and Mac is about.

Yes iMovie 06 does remain on the HDD and now as a download (but only for iLife 08 users) but how long do you think that Apple will allow us to keep using the software? FCP and FCE are 'industry' orientated apps, they have a steep learning curve and a heavy price, they are NOT aimed at the home user, iMovie 06 was designed for that, iMovie 08 is a comedown intended for the 'casual YouTube generation'.

I bet Adobe and Microsoft are rubbing their hands over this stumble by Apple, there is now a gap in the market that most likely Adobe will exploit. And don't exspect that there will be upgrades or enhancements to iMovie 08 forget it this is the new iMovie and there will be no going back, the fun and creative app that was once held up with pride is over.

I don't know about others but I say, screw the YouTube generation I will likely move to PC's for video editing when iMovie 06 support is dropped.
:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

MrSmith
Aug 19, 2007, 09:15 AM
I think I just dragged the movie from Movie 08 into my iDVD project.

Setting chapter markers in iDVD
...
Thanks AJ. Considering how lively this forum is it's surprisingly difficult to get an answer sometimes, even posting in different threads. :(

The procedure sounds completely different and, I'm afraid to say, not exactly easier. Guess I'll have to try it for real. :)

alzatron
Aug 19, 2007, 11:10 PM
- Almost no one uses chapter markers, ever. This is only usefull if you are making a DVD which is actually rather difficult to do with the old iMovie in that the integration with iDVD is rather poor (in the old version). The number of our users that end up making DVD's out of their projects is a tiny fraction. Most users want to make a movie for a class project in an afternoon or less.


Most iMovie users I know make DVDs, and MUST have chapters. Some plan to switch to Windows for Movie Editing.

Very Easy to make a DVD in iMovie 06, Click Share > iDVD.

After several days of experimenting with iMovie 08 I have found that I cannot use it. I have gone back to iMovie 06. With no ability to set Chapters where desired (without using Garageband!) no timeline editing and no sharing with iDVD I found the program unusable.

* No timeline
* No granularity--only global audio changes allowed
* No chapter markers for iDVD
* No Share to iDVD
* Loss of multiple audio tracks
* Loss of plugin support
* Cannot change transition speed after inserting a transition without making global changes
* No audio waveforms
* Cannot vary clip speed
* No pause control for titles
* Cannot play audio over black
* Cannot select a sequence of clips to move elsewhere within the movie
* Cannot overlap audio tracks (again...no multiple tracks)
* No themes (they WERE amazing)
* Cannot extract audio (of course, you can't do much of ANYTHING with audio in this thing)
* Cannot import projects from older versions without losing, well...everything important.

But what if you want those missing capabilities? Apple has a great video-editing program for you: it's called iMovie HD (iMovie 06).

I am confident that Apple will eventually correct this mistake. (I understand that Apple has made iMovie 06 a free download for owners of iMovie 08!) I believe that the best course of action would be for Apple to continue upgrading iMovie 06 (iMovie HD) with full support for iDVD and DVD burning. Rename iMovie 08 (iVideo?) for small, quick little videos or slideshows for absolute beginners that don't want to burn a DVD.

alzatron
Aug 19, 2007, 11:12 PM
error

chatin
Aug 19, 2007, 11:48 PM
Cut my first video in iMovie 08 and found that I didn't need to render as much to do a standard title and sound set. (Selecting things to title requires a special ditty with the mouse)

When I did render, much faster! Apple needed to ditch iMovie HD without canabilizing Final Cut Express.

Very nice! I don't know what what people are complaining about besides change. The content is what counts and time is money.

:)

barnarmo
Aug 20, 2007, 07:59 AM
I've been reading most of this discussion and find the topic really interesting. Over the past 12 years I've edited on Premiere, media 100, AVID, Final Cut Pro, flatbeds, and tape to tape video editing systems. All that I can say about imovie 08 is that it's really refreshing to see some innovation happening in a pretty tired timeline based editing paradigm. iMovie 08, while not perfect for everyone is a relly interesting and intuitive approach to editing. Working on it with a new 24" imac and tablet is really nice. Lightning fast, quick ability to view selections, none of the garbage effects from earlier versions of iMovie. It actually has rel color correction ow. I find that much more useful for any level of video maker than an emboss or hatch tone effect.

I'm not sure if anyone mentioned it before, but the ability to send you iMovie project to fcp as xml is really awesome. I gave it a shot and it worked flawlessly. I know it won't appease most users of imove, but I could see it being a great way to rough cutting and make assembly edits in certain cases.

As for some of the audio concerns, those are really valid and should be addressed. Perhaps an export to garageband feature for more detailed audio work, or the ability to sync to garage band for audio work.

I'm sure that this program will evolve to address the concerns about some lost functionality. I'm looking forward to seeing what the limits are and how far you can push it. at least creatively, within the restraints.

Also the media management is a really big deal. I think it makes alot of sense to integrate it into the software, something that Final Cut Pro doesn't do very well. It is definitely more of an AVID style media management approach, but consolidation of digital media is practical especially for people that don't want to deal with media management.

I just don't understand why I can't select more than one clip at a time.

just my 2 cents

AJsAWiz
Aug 20, 2007, 10:00 AM
Thanks AJ. Considering how lively this forum is it's surprisingly difficult to get an answer sometimes, even posting in different threads. :(

The procedure sounds completely different and, I'm afraid to say, not exactly easier. Guess I'll have to try it for real. :)

You are quite welcome! Yes, with all of the lively banter about iMovie 08 sometimes things get lost in the shuffle ;)

surferfromuk
Aug 20, 2007, 03:55 PM
I think iMovie 08 is a serious step backwards...

Sure, it's faster, but taking away the timeline? And effects? Etc.

Definitely will not be getting iLife 08.......at least, not until I get a new Mac, whenever that is!

Best,

Bob

That's a shame bob - your missing out - really big time.

iMovie 8 is seriously awesome piece of s/w and in 6 months time when the hoo-haar has died down people will begin to understand just how seriously great this is.

I promise I'm not exaggerating when I say that I've just done a project in 50 mins on my iMac and iMovie 8 which took half a day on a fast modern dell using Pinnacle Studio 10 - AND the results are better. The product was a joy ( unlike studio) and the contextual 'clip' orientated timeline is just so nice. No more farting about zooming and shrinking to see the whole project. No waiting for transitions to render or gaps appearing and screwing up the synch. All that tedious crapola has been eradicated.

Band Stretch, 'Time adjust each clip' - transitions clearly shown between clips - all these simple little contextual elements per clip make clean video creation s fast and awesome

Anyone bitching about lack of functionality is already at Final Cut Express level and is no longer exclusively focused on delivering refined polished content quickly, easily and professionally. They have ascended to the ranks of video artistry that is no longer simply that OF CONTENT DELIVERY but that of it's technical application within the video genre - if you take my drift. Your a seriously crap of a long way from everyday folks making good fun movies.

I'd be seriously bummed to have to go back to the clunky old imovie 6/Pinnacle Studio way of movie making - but then I'm just doing it for fun...and I promise movie making has NEVER been more fun than it is with this package.

Ghibli
Aug 20, 2007, 04:13 PM
The content is what counts and time is money.

:)

Time is money if the results are the same. In case of a direct comparison iMovie 06 Vs iMovie 08, I'm really afraid of saying that the attainable results are not even comparable... '06 was such a better app.

Arnaud
Aug 20, 2007, 04:21 PM
Hello, some feedback after a couple of days of playing around with the new software...

Well, I like it. I do agree a timeline could be useful (although I don't know where it would fit in the new approach), and better sound controls, as well as a few effects (or at least plug-in capacity).

But for the rest, it's very nice. I think I start to find my way, and understand how to approach my work. Of course, thinking in an "iMovie 6" way for an iMovie 8 project is frustrating, but if you accept the change, well, the "iMovie 8" way is very nice and intuitive.

Most of my work is to make something out of 1h long shots (covering Aikido trainings mostly), so there is not too much creativity involved, whereas the time needed is consequent. But I think that attributing keywords to sections of video, and choosing a view mode only showing this keyword is way more powerful than the old trimming version.

I'm seriously looking forward to my new projects. Whereas I was getting frustrated of doing them under iMovie 06, confusing, awful backup options.

NB: Regarding effects, I'll mention the anecdote of my own wedding - we had to struggle with the "video-artist" to have a version of the video without too many effects. The "artist" thought that the more effects, the more varied, made for the best video. Honnestly: it didn't. Simplicity and continuity might be more important sometimes. In the end, the artist gave us a "light" version of the video, but had to also add a full-effects version. In case we'd change our minds...

alzatron
Aug 25, 2007, 10:30 PM
iLife 08 commercial?

It's Mac and PC. There is a sharply dressed woman executive standing next to Mac, she's iLife 06. Mac hands her a pinks slip. "Sorry 06 we have to let you go." And 06 says says "But I thought I was doing so good!" And Mac says "You were great but we need to upgrade"

A stereotypical bubble headed blond with a great body giggles her way on to the screen. Mac "Meet iLife 08!" 06 "This is my upgrade?" Mac, "Yeah, doesn't she look great?" PC "Wow! Now this is more like it! Say Mac think you can get me a date?"

In the second spot with 08 giggling and filing her nails, PC asks her "So are you as compatable as 06" 08 "I dunno know." PC "Do you have any special effects?" 08 "Huh?" PC "Would you like to see my Vista?" 08 "Okay!"

MrSmith
Aug 26, 2007, 12:16 AM
You mean it's a dumbed-down version? Or it's sexy? :D

AJsAWiz
Aug 29, 2007, 07:36 PM
I balked at first but, after playing with iMovie 08 I've decided that, overall, I like it better than the previous installment. The only thing I miss are the plug ins. I particularly like skimming. It makes editing so much easier and IMHO more precise. I had to keep reminding myself that this was not an update to the previous iMovie but a program written from the ground up.

There's a nice review here:
http://www.macworld.com/2007/08/reviews/imovie08/index.php

exigentsky
Sep 1, 2007, 04:21 AM
I'm a bit confused and haven't used either iMovie too muh. Excluding skimming, on-clip trimming and the new media browser because they could have just been tagged on to iMovie 06 (without eliminating the timeline), how is the new iMovie easier to use? What is easier about this new picturebook paradigm? To me, it seems like it' just a timeline with images and lacking layers. This is an honest question. Is this new paradigm easier for you and if so why?

Also check out this article about the new iMovie: http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2007/08/did_apple_hurt.html

BTW: The problem with FCE is that it's just a feature disabled version of FCP. The program is meant for prosumers but it's not any easier to use and the interface is not targeting this group.

webraider
Oct 11, 2008, 11:24 PM
I tend to use iMovie to do dvd slideshows for wedding photographers, and a big thing was the ability to fade music out, or one track into another.

This is a huge feature to drop - surely a soundtrack is an important part of any movie, even a basic one, so to drop the ability to fade the audio in and out to fit your video is crazy. It's not a nice feature to have - surely it's an essential feature?

Having had a quick look at 08 on a new 24" iMac, it does look great, and the skimming is superb - but all it really needs is a timeline view. Then you can either use it as it is, or if you want to use some of the missing features, you could just switch to the timeline view. By all means tart it up a bit so it looks as great as the rest of 08, but there's really no excuse to drop it.

One question tho' - when you drop transitions in now - or even photos with the ken burns effect added - are they just done instantly now without encoding?

I know this is late but iMovie '08 DOES do fading in and out of Audio Tracks. You just have to look under the hood. Also.. Yes.. they are done without encoding.. much faster in than iMovie '06