Made in China

[MACDRIVE]

The toymaker said the latest defective Chinese toys were produced by Early Light Industrial Company, which it said subcontracted the painting to another Chinese vendor, Hong Li Da (HLD). “While the painting subcontractor, HLD, was required to utilize paint supplied directly from Early Light, it instead violated Mattel’s standards and utilized paint from a nonauthorized third-party supplier,” Mattel said.

New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/14/business/15toys-web.html?em&ex=1187323200&en=31e5af0b9d18492a&ei=5087%0A)



"I'm going to be wary of what I purchase" from Mattel, says Tami Toon, a working mother from Chico, Calif., who has an 8-year-old and a 2-year-old. From now on, she says, no more toys made in China in her household.

It's that kind of reaction that Mattel executives fear most.

USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/money/world/2007-08-14-mattel-toy-recall_N.htm)


I'm interested in knowing your thoughts on Chinese business practices as a whole; not just the latest recall of Mattel's toys Made in China. My knowledge of global economics is very limited, but I know it has something to do with the Chinese yuan being at a fixed devalued rate to the American dollar that has something to do with it. Then there's the cheap Chinese labour that's available to U.S. companies for outsourcing the production of their products that has something to do with it too.

I'm trying to learn more about this issue by educating myself with what information that I can find on the web, but the information I have found is either limited in scope, or the terminology is way beyond my comprehension. Obviously, there's the possibility that the very Mac that you're reading this thread on right now may be Made in China; which could very well bias your opinion in favour of China.

Myself, I don't want any kids to get hurt, but the thought of a certain amount of paranoia entering into some parents heads about toys Made in China, is just music to my ears. :D

[solvs]

This was bound to happen eventually, the warning signs have been there for awhile now.

And the guy in charge over there took his life because of it. Can't imagine many here in the US doing that. Not that I would suggest they should, but some accountability would be nice. For once.

[Joshua8o8]

you mean products are made in China?

[MACDRIVE]

People in the U.S. don't seem to care about where the product is made that they buy; that's what's so disturbing to me. All they care about is getting the best deal. People need to stop and think about what kind of damage they're doing by buying a product made in China, Indonesia, Malaysia, India or Mexico.

[njmac]

I hate those cheap dollar store toys that my kids get at the doctor's office and in goody bags. They don't need them, they never work right and its a shame the plastic and labor used to make something likely to never be played with and discarded.

My kids do have and love the "Sarge" Cars toy and the Thomas Wooden Railway Trains that are being recalled. The trains especially are disappointing because they are expensive and decent quality. At this point, I don't trust anything coming from China.

And seriously, I drink white tea imported from China and I'm starting to worry if any of that is counterfeit :confused:

For kids toys it's difficult but not impossible to find American or European made toys. Some of my favorites are:

Lego (Denmark, Czech Republic, Switzerland, and Korea)
K'nex (US)
Kapla Blocks (http://www.kaplatoys.com)(France) or Keva Planks (http://www.kevaplanks.com) (US)
most Haba toys (germany)

[bousozoku]

Having shopped Asian stores for a very long time, I've been wary of Chinese products because they've mostly been food products. Most of the problems with food have been coming from South America, until recently and I've seen some warnings in Singapore about products from China.

However with certain electronics products coming from China now, I'm more concerned because the prices look good but, as with the Apple scandals, many factories are operating in a fashion that doesn't seem to appreciate people, safety, or true quality.

The local news was going on about lead-based paints and yet, these arrive on dishes from Italy quite often still.

I would think that companies as big as Fisher-Price and Mattel would have a plan for random inspections of products, especially considering the danger to children but apparently, they've become lax.

I have no problem trusting products from practically anywhere else, except maybe the generic "America" I see on some products just because those products are likely made with sweatshop labour.

[leekohler]

You get what you pay for indeed.

[mactastic]

Yeah, I don't think my son's getting any toys made in China anytime soon.

But of course this is all about the bottom line. Lead-free paint is more expensive, and the philosophy championed by folks like Wal-Mart (not to mention California's public low-bid laws - but that's another topic for another day) says that cheaper is always better.

[xsedrinam]

I'm waiting on a black MacBook in transit FedEx from Shanghai. I hope I get what I payed for.

[jczubach]

Does anyone else find it ironic that the very toys sitting in front of us that we're using to view this thread is probably made in china?:rolleyes:

[mactastic]

Does anyone else find it ironic that the very toys sitting in front of us that we're using to view this thread is probably made in china?:rolleyes:
Yeah, but how likely are you to ingest any portion of your computer?

[yg17]

Yeah, but how likely are you to ingest any portion of your computer?



.....wait, so I'm not supposed to eat this kind of apple? That would explain why it tasted so bad.

[katie ta achoo]

Yeah, but how likely are you to ingest any portion of your computer?

*starts gnawing on LCD*



Ok, but seriously:
I really wonder what this'll do to xmas toy sales. I've seen a drop in toy sales of items made in China. I've had customers specifically ask me to help them find something that hasn't been manufactured in China. It's easy for birth-3 years (Chicco = Italian, WOW toys = UK) but older kids, it's all china. Webkinz, LEGO, Groovy Girls, etc.

A few customers have asked me specifically for items made in the USA. Yes, they're more expensive. You want something made in this country? Be prepared to pay for the costs that go into it: wages (US ~$6/hr), health insurance for workers, acquisition of raw materials, etc. Yeah, the same basic thing is going to be like 50% more. The American public wants things cheap, and they want them now.

I'm not worried about the toy store I work at 'going under' because of lower Xmas sales-- we have a loyal customer base and you can't beat our free gift wrapping-- but a few of the "go-to" products for 4-8 year old girls are gone. I am worried about having customers with a point to prove coming in:
"I won't buy from China! Help me find a gift. My son loves Webkinz!"
--Webkinz are made in china. Good luck explaining to your kid why you didn't get him the Clydesdale/spotted frog/terrier/whatever animal is new for his birthday, even though he's been whining about it for months. I'll have a box of tissues for him when he starts crying.
"I won't buy from China because I want to show them how much they're hurting the Public!"
--Uhm... Good luck trying to find something 100% american made. The wood could be from Argentina, the paint from Canada, the metal screws from Korea. Also, not buying a product on the shelf specifically hurts the neighborhood toy store you love so much. The items on the shelf are ordered months before you even see them or know they exist. Xmas orders were placed in MAY. They were paid for in May. Mattel/HAI/SEHH already have their money. You're just hurting the bottom line when we have to put things on sale because you refuse to buy them. A sale of 50% off is just breaking even. They have to pay their smiling employees :), and they can't do that if they're just breaking even.

OK, I'm rambling. Time to go eat some scones. :p
(They're made in the USA... in my kitchen. Mmm.)

[njmac]

I would prefer to pay more for European or US made toys and let my kids have less toys. How many toys do kids need, sheesh :rolleyes:

Katie, I believe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lego) Lego are made in Denmark and the Czech Republic...

I guess it gets harder when the kids are bigger and they want things like webkins. The 5 and under crowd are easy :) EDIT: like Katie said.

[Ugg]

"I won't buy from China because I want to show them how much they're hurting the Public!"
--Uhm... Good luck trying to find something 100% american made. The wood could be from Argentina, the paint from Canada, the metal screws from Korea.
OK, I'm rambling. Time to go eat some scones. :p
(They're made in the USA... in my kitchen. Mmm.)

Well, your scones might be made in the USA but the soy based additives might well come from Argentina too!

No kids, so I don't have to worry about toys but for awhile now I've been more wary of what I buy. It's impossible not to buy stuff from China.

Whenever I look at a box of crackers and see "Made in the USA" I always wonder which ingredients are made from foreign products. There's simply no way of telling.

I don't knowingly buy any food that's made in China.


China's highly unregulated. When looking at the numbers of food factories, it's simply unfathomable. Coupled with a weak regulatory system, a tradition of bribery and the lack of a free press it's just a matter of time before there's a mass poisoning.

If it happens within the next year, the Olympics will turn into China's biggest nightmare.

[skunk]

Reminds me of the old joke:

Elmer: It says here in this paper every third child born in the world is Chinese.
Mildred: Well, thank God we only had two!

:)

[mactastic]

China's highly unregulated.
Sounds like a conservative wet-dream.

[Peterkro]

Sounds like a conservative wet-dream.

Quite, the rabid free marketers,should be overjoyed.

[njmac]

It's impossible not to buy stuff from China.

Whenever I look at a box of crackers and see "Made in the USA" I always wonder which ingredients are made from foreign products. There's simply no way of telling.

I don't knowingly buy any food that's made in China.



The major food that China ships to the US is garlic. (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11613477) If you buy a product that lists garlic as an ingredient, it most likely came from China.


How does anyone here feel about buying tea from china? My favorite tea (Organic Shou Mei White Special Grade (http://www.uptontea.com/shopcart/item.asp?from=catalog.asp&itemID=ZW22&begin=0&parent=Teas%3EWhite%3EChina&category=White&sortMethod=0&categoryID=59)) is from China. My other options for tea are India and Sri Lanka. Both are more expensive than China and in this case the China tea is an outstanding product unlike most things from China.

[e²Studios]

Here is a book where someone lived a year without any products made in China, along with all the difficulties that came with living without Chinese made products.

http://www.amazon.com/Year-Without-Made-China-Adventure/dp/0470116137

Journalist Bongiorni, on a post-Christmas day mired deep in plastic toys and electronics equipment, makes up her mind to live for a year without buying any products made in China, a decision spurred less by notions of idealism or fair trade-though she does note troubling statistics on job loss and trade deficits-than simply "to see if it can be done." In this more personal vein, Bongiorni tells often funny, occasionally humiliating stories centering around her difficulty procuring sneakers, sunglasses, DVD players and toys for two young children and a skeptical husband. With little insight into global economics or China's manufacturing practices, readers may question the point of singling out China when cheap, sweatshop-produced products from other countries are fair game (though Bongiorni cheerfully admits the flaws in her project, she doesn't consider fixing them). Still, Bongiorni is a graceful, self-deprecating writer, and her comic adventures in self-imposed inconvenience cast an interesting sideways glance at the personal effects of globalism, even if it doesn't easily connect to the bigger picture.

Ed

[FrankBlack]

And the guy in charge over there took his life because of it. Can't imagine many here in the US doing that.

Nah, here such an executive would twirl out the door with a multi-million dollar severance package, and the employees would all get laid off.

[AlBDamned]

My knowledge of global economics is very limited...I'm trying to learn more about this issue by educating myself .....but the information I have found is either limited in scope, or the terminology is way beyond my comprehension....

There's a good book that I have at home called China Inc. (http://www.amazon.com/China-Inc-Superpower-Challenges-America/dp/0743257359/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-4725913-2783327?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187235829&sr=8-1). I found it a good start on the topic and it's not too overwhelming and pretty easy to read, yet it opens your eyes to the immensity of the country and it's economic power and possible future.

There's a lot of info out there so it's easy to get swamped, but that book is definitely recommended and the link above is to Amazon where it's $10.

I personally think that although the hype curve is still well on its way up, there's so much nasty stuff bubbling away in that country that some aspect of it will pop at some stage.

Beyond that we should all be learning a lot more about the place.

[steamboat26]

There are some toys not manufactured in china, but when big corporations see how low wages are in china, and how much money they can save by producing there, what do you think they would do? It's all about money...

[MACDRIVE]

It's all about money...

Yes it is and you're very right, but if the end user (which is all of us) were to decide that we want to buy products made in USA or Europe, sooner or a later they'd have to listen. ;)

Myself, I have a hobby of collecting high-end tools; whether it be hand tools or power tools. So far from what I've seen, the Chinese don't know how to make a high-end tool; all they know how to do is make something that remotely resembles a high-end tool.

I like tools made in the USA, Switzerland, Denmark, Sweden, Japan, France and Germany. There are some really nice wood chisels made in England that are on my future acquisition list as well. :p

I took a welding class at city college a few years back. Some of us would bring our own mini grinders to class in our backpacks or store them in the school locker. There was this one guy that would go to a place called Harbour Freight and buy a Chinese made grinder for $20. It would last for only 20 minutes! There was something wrong with the copper windings on the armatures that would keep burning up. The guy would go back to the store and get a free replacement, but after about the 4th one, he finally gave up and bought himself a DeWalt. :D

[Desertrat]

Interesting that folks talk against foreign purchase and get excited about the current account deficit--yet what if other countries didn't want to buy US products? We export something like $1.7 trillion's worth a year.

Sure, "you get what you pay for", but some of my tools are from Harbor Freight, some are Snap-On. Depends on usage and "bang for the buck" in meeting my needs. I have Sears Industrial saws and drill motors that have been used for decades; some el cheapo occasional-use stuff that's adequate.

I'm in favor of lead-free paint, but I and many friends survived childhood in an era when there was no such thing. Since lead-free paint is a small incremental additive to a toy's cost, it's enhanced safety at a reasonable cost--as opposed to the modern penchant for "safety at any cost". IMO, the problem is overblown, in that I didn't eat my toys; my kid didn't eat his...

The food-problem thing seems to me to be the more important. I note that the Chinese seem to have a lesson-giving way of dealing with corruption in their equivalent of our FDA, however.

'Rat

[nplima]

I'm trying to learn more about this issue by educating myself with what information that I can find on the web,


try your bookshop: ISBN-10: 0300102526
"Why Globalization works" by Martin Wolf.

I saw him a couple of years ago on Tonight Show with Jon Stewart promoting this book. I bought it and enjoyed reading it quite a lot.

[njmac]

Interesting that folks talk against foreign purchase and get excited about the current account deficit--yet what if other countries didn't want to buy US products? We export something like $1.7 trillion's worth a year.

Sure, "you get what you pay for", but some of my tools are from Harbor Freight, some are Snap-On. Depends on usage and "bang for the buck" in meeting my needs. I have Sears Industrial saws and drill motors that have been used for decades; some el cheapo occasional-use stuff that's adequate.

I'm in favor of lead-free paint, but I and many friends survived childhood in an era when there was no such thing. Since lead-free paint is a small incremental additive to a toy's cost, it's enhanced safety at a reasonable cost--as opposed to the modern penchant for "safety at any cost". IMO, the problem is overblown, in that I didn't eat my toys; my kid didn't eat his...

The food-problem thing seems to me to be the more important. I note that the Chinese seem to have a lesson-giving way of dealing with corruption in their equivalent of our FDA, however.

'Rat

I'm not against buying foreign products in general - just Chinese products because of the bad quality (usually) and bad working conditions.

I do have a kid that chews on her toys (she's 3) its annoying and I'm constantly telling her to stop. One of the lead paint toys from Thomas has her bite marks on it. My son, does not eat his toys (and I did not eat my toys) so I don't really know what is up with her but I would prefer her toys not be painted with lead paint.

I also survived my childhood without a car seat. Some kids didn't. I put my kids in car seats.

Many people survive drunk driving. My brother didn't when his friend drove drunk.

I hate the "I survived" argument.

[MACDRIVE]

Depends on usage and "bang for the buck" in meeting my needs.

. . . some el cheapo occasional-use stuff that's adequate.

That's exactly the kind of mindset I'm trying to get people to get away from. I would much rather buy a tool with a higher level quality than what I need and at the same time, feel rest assured that I'm not contributing to the demise of the American factory worker. ;)

[Desertrat]

MACDRIVE, sure, I follow your point about mindset, but some folks just can't afford it.

For my view, an example is this: I don't put heavy leverage on a couple of large wrenches; 1-1/8" and 1-1/4", but I have to deal with fittings of that size. I bought an entire set, 3/8" to 1-1/4", of box/open-end at SAM's for $19 plus tax. To buy one each of the wrenches from Snap-On? No way, Jose. Around $50 per each. Even Sears is way too high. Those el-cheapos do just fine, and have for some 24 years, but my mid-size metric and SAE wrenches and sockets are Snap-On.

I'll take a Case backhoe over a Ford or a Kubota.

IMO, all it really is is caveat emptor except a tad more complex. "Gotta have a feel for the steel," I guess...

:), 'Rat

[solvs]

I hate the "I survived" argument.
Ditto. But there's no reasonable argument to excuse such things, so they gotta say something. Goes along with that "I got mine" philosophy. I guess all those people who didn't just weren't lucky enough or smart enough or something.

I always think it's funny though when those who profess to be Christian seem to be the ones calling for survival of the fittest.

[MACDRIVE]

Desertrat,

I'm not suggesting that you empty out your bank account and buy all Snap-on, but you can still buy American made quality tools without spending a mint.

Example: industrial tools such as Armstrong, Williams and Proto will give you excellent quality at a lesser cost without having to resort to Chinese made tools. ;)

I have a little of all the brands listed above plus some German made pliers called Knipex. I'm proud to own all of them. :)

[Desertrat]

Aw, Protos work; they just look unfinished. :) Like Craftsman.

Hey, I still use Kraeuter pliers that are Army surplus from WW II. Miller's Falls chisels. Plomb hammers. Disston handsaws. I have stuff around that's older than I am, and that's going some. :D

I just wish they made guns as slick as an old Krag. I don't think I've even handled a high-dollar custom hoo-wah that's as smooth. But I guess that's why God invented the Dremel tool and jeweler's rouge...

'Rat

[Sedulous]

Heh, the chinese have been doing this kind of thing to each other for years. Because regulation is so poor (and corruption so high) the chinese have had to put up with counterfit everything... from baby food to eggs. However, that said, now the "global economy" has brought that problem to our shores. I find it incredibly hard to believe the economic advantage of manufacturing in China is entirely because of cheap labor. There is something else going on when they can sell us things cheaper than the cost of raw materials. I suggest that the reasons China is the "world's workshop" are rooted in low/no regulation and cutting corners (i.e. fake eggs, baby food, lead paint). If China were to regulate its products properly and use legitimate materials, their economic advantage would be gone. That's my simplified theory.

Unfortunately, if true, it spells serious problems for the U.S. economy. Costs would rise dramatically, China would probably cease loaning the U.S. so much "cheap" money, and most likely call its loans (and the U.S. owes tons of debt to China).

[FFTT]

Kinda wandered OT but, you gotta check out WIHA Tools!
Real nice stuff! High quality, precision and very good prices.

http://www.wihatools.com/

[Desertrat]

I ran across a news squib in the last day or two that alleged that there had been more instances of rejection of imported food from Mexico than from China. Type of food wasn't mentioned. However, a fair number of us buy fresh produce and enjoy the restaurants "otro la'o del Rio" at Ojinaga, Chihuahua--and no problems...

'Rat

[MACDRIVE]

Kinda wandered OT but, you gotta check out WIHA Tools!
Real nice stuff! High quality, precision and very good prices.


That could very well be the Perfect Life right there - work all day at the WIHA Tools factory in Germany and then drive home in my BMW 7 Series to see my beautiful blond German wife. . . :)

[synth3tik]

America is all pissed off because China turned away a shipment of flavored drink (don't know which one) because it had unhealthy levels of red dye (makes me think Ruby Red Mountain Dew). There is the same level of lead that is in all toys. I don't know this as fact, just my opinion.

[Desertrat]

No, synth, it's more than that. It's dead pets and contaminated fish products, among other problems.

'Rat