Catholic Church Converts to Islam, almost

[Black Belt]

http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57178

What a travesty to sell out to threats.

[calculus]

Well, I don't think it matters what you call your imaginary friend...

[Black Belt]

It's the principle. You gonna let a bully make you call your imaginary friend something you don't wanna? No you're gonna tell him to step off and stick it. Freedom baby.

[kwood]

Well, I don't think it matters what you call your imaginary friend...

I really don't think it is appropriate to say comments like this about people's religious beliefs.

EDIT: I agree with Black Belt it is the principle. Allah does mean God in Arabic but the Islamic faith and Christian faith are not the same. If I were a Muslim I would be offended if a Catholic or Christian started referring to their God by the same name I called mine. It is the principle of the fact.

There is no need for personal attacks anywhere, not on the Internet, not over the phone, neither in person. Please refrain from using these types of comments.

[Jaffa Cake]

It's the principle. You gonna let a bully make you call your imaginary friend something you don't wanna? No you're gonna tell him to step off and stick it. Freedom baby.No one is attempting to bully the Catholic Church into this – it's a Catholic bishop making the suggestion. As the article you linked to notes;

A Muslim spokesman, for Amsterdam's union of Moroccan mosques, said Muslims had not asked for such a gesture from Christians, the AP reported.

[psychofreak]

Why is it inappropriate to say that "God" is imaginary? Can calculus not say what s/he thinks? I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, I'm fine if you say he is made up...

[kwood]

Why is it inappropriate to say that "God" is imaginary? Can calculus not say what s/he thinks? I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, I'm fine if you say he is made up...

Then they should have worded their post like this:

"Well, I don't care what you call him I think he is imaginary."

His original post sounded inflammatory and posted just for the sake of being controversial. I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion, but some things are best left unsaid when they infringe on the rights of others (that is the right to worship freely without persecution).

We could have a mature discussion about this, or we could just make a bunch of posts designed to make the other side more and more upset with us.

[Bern]

The priest is a moron! Why is it that "we" always have to placate the muslims for goodness sake? Coming from a country where we aren't even allowed to look twice at a muslim without being labelled a racist I think it's high time people get a grip. Allah may well be an arabic term for God, but for centuries it has generally been accepted as a muslim one.

At the risk of being labelled a racist, I personally find this priest's comment offensive as I suspect a muslim would had one of their priests made a suggestion to refer to Allah as God to placate the catholics.

[bousozoku]

What's the difference? It's still the god of Abraham.

[PCMacUser]

Why is it inappropriate to say that "God" is imaginary? Can calculus not say what s/he thinks? I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, I'm fine if you say he is made up...

The problem with your example is that it is highly unlikely that you believe in the so-called Flying Spaghetti Monster. Not that I have any right to suggest you don't, but the issue is that when people genuinely believe in a god, who is central to their lives, then much more offense can be taken by 'careless' comments. Sure, people can say what they want in here, but it's just about being nice more than anything else.

[Bern]

What's the difference? It's still the god of Abraham.

The difference is Christianity was founded over the peaceful teachings of a person (Jesus) as opposed to the Muslim faith which was spread by war by it's founder (Muhammad).

[.Andy]

The priest is a moron! Why is it that "we" always have to placate the muslims for goodness sake?
Could you expand on this? I'm interested as an australian what you think you've always had to do to placate muslims?

[bousozoku]

The difference is Christianity was founded over the peaceful teachings of a person (Jesus) as opposed to the Muslim faith which was spread by war by it's founder (Muhammad).

Oh, do you mean the war when the Christians were raping the Arab world looking for trinkets such as the holy grail?

[ham_man]

Middle Eastern Christians call God "Allah" because they speak Arabic and "Allah" is Arabic for God.

All Muslims call God "Allah" because they must learn Arabic to read/hear the Koran.

For this priest to have his parishnoners call God "Allah" is just plain stupid. If he is going to have them do this, he might as well start conducting services in Arabic...

[PCMacUser]

Oh, do you mean the war when the Christians were raping the Arab world looking for trinkets such as the holy grail?

Oooooh.... harsh.... but fair....

Although in truth, I seem to recall that both members of each respective religion suffered persecution initially - you know, being fed to lions etc. It was when the heads of state decided to take on the leadership of the religions themselves that people were called to war in the name of 'religion' - when in fact it was just a landgrab, etc.

[mduser63]

Oh, do you mean the war when the Christians were raping the Arab world looking for trinkets such as the holy grail?

Are you talking about The Crusades? Seems to me that was 1000+ years after Christ was gone... Muhammad was still around when Islam was being spread by force.

In any case, I think the whole argument is ridiculous. I'm getting sick of intolerant people on both sides of the issue. Certain Muslims and Christians need to allow other people their beliefs peacefully. That doesn't mean they need to give up their own beliefs. "God" is the English word for god, "allah" is the Arabic word for god. How about letting people use whatever word they want to use... I'm not about to start speaking Arabic to appease Muslims any more than I'm going to start speaking Chinese to appease (hypothetical) Chinese people who are offended by my beliefs.

[bousozoku]

Are you talking about The Crusades? Seems to me that was 1000+ years after Christ was gone... Muhammad was still around when Islam was being spread by force.

In any case, I think the whole argument is ridiculous. I'm getting sick of intolerant people on both sides of the issue. Certain Muslims and Christians need to allow other people their beliefs peacefully. That doesn't mean they need to give up their own beliefs. "God" is the English word for god, "allah" is the Arabic word for god. How about letting people use whatever word they want to use... I'm not about to start speaking Arabic to appease Muslims any more than I'm going to start speaking Chinese to appease (hypothetical) Chinese people who are offended by my beliefs.

It was quite a bit later but I wanted to remind him how peaceful a religion Christianity is and was.

[mduser63]

It was quite a bit later but I wanted to remind him how peaceful a religion Christianity is and was.

I see what you're getting at, but he was talking about the founders of the religions. I'm a Christian myself and at least strive to be peaceful and promote peace, but I see a lot of the opposite from other "Christians" despite what Christ taught. I like this bumper sticker:

"The Christian Right is neither."

[skunk]

Then they should have worded their post like this:

"Well, I don't care what you call him I think he is imaginary."

His original post sounded inflammatory and posted just for the sake of being controversial. I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion, but some things are best left unsaid when they infringe on the rights of others (that is the right to worship freely without persecution).

We could have a mature discussion about this, or we could just make a bunch of posts designed to make the other side more and more upset with us.The very fact that you claim that Calculus' post was insulting is an insult to everyone who does not believe in "your" god. You imply by your belief that "your" god is real, complete with all his imaginary attributes of omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence, singularity and patriarchal characteristics. This belief itself denies the possibility that there is no god, or any other god, gods or goddesses. What an insult!

[Sbrocket]

It was quite a bit later but I wanted to remind him how peaceful a religion Christianity is and was.

You may have a point for the past tense (I'm not here to debate historical events), but I fail to see how that extends into the present tense.

[skunk]

You may have a point for the past tense (I'm not here to debate historical events), but I fail to see how that extends into the present tense.Ask any Muslim about Crusader George.

[bousozoku]

I see what you're getting at, but he was talking about the founders of the religions. I'm a Christian myself and at least strive to be peaceful and promote peace, but I see a lot of the opposite from other "Christians" despite what Christ taught. I like this bumper sticker:

"The Christian Right is neither."

That's a good bumper sticker.

I seriously don't see Abraham's son Ismael being any different than the rest of the sons in passing along their religious beliefs but who else was there helping the religion along?

I know that a lot of people have been killed in the name of the god of Abraham, regardless.

You may have a point for the past tense (I'm not here to debate historical events), but I fail to see how that extends into the present tense.

I don't see how Bern's outcry has anything to do with the present tense, either and I was just making a countering statement.

[PCMacUser]

The very fact that you claim that Calculus' post was insulting is an insult to everyone who does not believe in "your" god. You imply by your belief that "your" god is real, complete with all his imaginary attributes of omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence, singularity and patriarchal characteristics. This belief itself denies the possibility that there is no god, or any other god, gods or goddesses. What an insult!

Well, while I think that your post is a little bit strange, I'll agree that beliefs (and non-beliefs) are intrinsically insulting. One religion or non-religion believes something and another believes something else. More often than not, those beliefs conflict with each other. What this means is that if you're easily insulted by what people believe (which is what you're saying you're offended by), rather than what people say to each other (which is what the person you were responding to was offended by), then you will be in a permanent state of offense. Make sense? :eek:

If you are easily offended by what others believe, then world peace will never be achievable. If you can tolerate others' beliefs, and not say bad things to each other about what they believe, then world peace could be achieved. That's ignoring all other factors like oil territory grabs, arms smuggling etc. We'll save that for another thread...

[psychofreak]

I seem to recall that both members of each respective religion suffered persecution initially - you know, being fed to lions etc.There is no proof that ever happened, nada, nothing whatsoever, at all...

[skunk]

If you are easily offended by what others believe, then world peace will never be achievable. If you can tolerate others' beliefs, and not say bad things to each other about what they believe, then world peace could be achieved.If your belief includes the presumption that everyone who does not share it or act according to its precepts is either ignorant, sinful, damned or all three, there is little chance of progress, let alone world peace - whatever that is.

[Bern]

Could you expand on this? I'm interested as an australian what you think you've always had to do to placate muslims?

I'm not going there, no matter what I say (as an Australian) I'll be labelled a racist anyway.

Oh, do you mean the war when the Christians were raping the Arab world looking for trinkets such as the holy grail?

Hello! I'm talking about the "founders" of the religion not the fools who used it as a political tool to control the masses. :rolleyes:

[skunk]

I'm not going there, no matter what I say (as an Australian) I'll be labelled a racist anyway.You've already said the racist bit. Now you have the opportunity to back it up.

[66217]

The very fact that you claim that Calculus' post was insulting is an insult to everyone who does not believe in "your" god.

But he isn't saying it is insulting because of what he beliefs, but because of the way he said it.

Everyone is entitled to belief whatever they want, but you have to be careful no to insult people with beliefs different than yours.

[skunk]

Everyone is entitled to belief whatever they want, but you have to be careful no to insult people with beliefs different than yours.If their beliefs are intrinsically insulting to those who believe differently, what then?

[Bern]

You've already said the racist bit. Now you have the opportunity to back it up.


I have?? Oh I must have missed that gravy boat.

How dare you tell me I'm a racist. You don't know me or who I am. For a start I'm a first generation, non-christian Australian (ethnic in Australia) and yes there are representatives of the muslim community who openly offend and harass non-muslims and if people express their disdain towards that they are labelled "racist" just as you've done. In fact I was forced to move out of my home I lived in for 4 years because "... you're not muslim, you don't belong here" (exact words) and after some time of constant harassment I left. Did I complain to the police, yes I did. What was I told? That I am a racist.

Look I appreciate people's softly, softly approach and I appreciate that most people just want to get along, who doesn't? But don't talk to me about racist.

You want to talk racism? If you're not Chinese can you get Chinese citizenship and carry a Chinese passport? No, does that make China racist? Of course not. Muslims only marry Muslims, does that make them racist, no it doesn't. Why can Afro-Americans call people white, but white people can't call them black?

Everybody is equal in my books, but it seems in today's society we have bastardised a word and used it for our own convenient agenda.

Rather than pointing fingers at people and labelling them a witch to be burned at the stake, take a good look in your own backyard.

[.Andy]

I'm not going there, no matter what I say (as an Australian) I'll be labelled a racist anyway.
Are you 12? If you're going to make a strong assertion back it up. Don't cower away at the first sight of people calling you on it. Have some backbone.

So far you're either (a) A cowardly bigoted that can't back up your argument, or (b) a poster that no one should bother engaging with because they're not going to go to the effort to flesh out their argument.

btw: religion and race are not interchangeable terms. No one is going to call you racist for posting about religion. They'll call you racist about being racist.


I have?? Oh I must have missed that gravy boat.

How dare you tell me I'm a racist. You don't know me or who I am. For a start I'm a first generation, non-christian Australian (ethnic in Australia) and yes there are representatives of the muslim community who openly offend and harass non-muslims and if people express their disdain towards that they are labelled "racist" just as you've done. In fact I was forced to move out of my home I lived in for 4 years because "... you're not muslim, you don't belong here" (exact words) and after some time of constant harassment I left. Did I complain to the police, yes I did. What was I told? That I am a racist.

Look I appreciate people's softly, softly approach and I appreciate that most people just want to get along, who doesn't? But don't talk to me about racist.

You want to talk racism? If you're not Chinese can you get Chinese citizenship and carry a Chinese passport? No, does that make China racist? Of course not. Muslims only marry Muslims, does that make them racist, no it doesn't. Why can Afro-Americans call people white, but white people can't call them black?

Everybody is equal in my books, but it seems in today's society we have bastardised a word and used it for our own convenient agenda.

Rather than pointing fingers at people and labelling them a witch to be burned at the stake, take a good look in your own backyard.
Go and read skunks post again. He didn't call you racist, he said that you'd already played the I'm not going to back up my argument because I'll be called racist card. Looks like you've had a hard time there, but you've still haven't illustrated why you think that 'we' have 'always' have to placate muslims.

[skunk]

How dare you tell me I'm a racist.Perhaps I should have put "racist" in quotes. I did not say you were a racist. I was asking for further explanation of your assertion that you always had to "placate Muslims" and that you were accused of racism.

[Bern]

Are you 12? If you're going to make a strong assertion back it up. Don't cower away at the first sight of people calling you on it. Have some backbone.

So far you're either (a) A cowardly bigoted that can't back up your argument, or (b) a poster that no one should bother engaging with because they're not going to go to the effort to flesh out their argument.

btw: religion and race are not interchangeable terms. No one is going to call you racist for posting about religion. They'll call you racist about being racist.

Seems you're a bit late and far too hasty in your assumptions. I have responded as you'll note above your bigoted response.

[66217]

If their beliefs are intrinsically insulting to those who believe differently, what then?

I think very few times this would happen, and still, you shouldn't go saying insulting things.

Many people belief God does not exists, and is totally correct for them to say that and explain why they think that, but you should always be careful not to insult someone else beliefs.
I don't take as an insult if someone tells me God does not exists, but I'll do if they come to me and make fun of my religion or beliefs.

[.Andy]

Seems you're a bit late and far too hasty in your assumptions. I have responded as you'll note above your bigoted response.
I'll be happy to humbly take back my 'assumptions' when you flesh out your reasons for posting that 'we' have 'always' had to placate muslims.

And I'm not sure bigoted thinks what you think it means.

[Bern]

...And I'm not sure bigoted thinks what you think it means.

big·ot (b?g'?t)

- A narrow-minded person who is intolerant of beliefs other than his or her own.
- One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
- (in modern usage) is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from their own.

Yes, I know what it means. Do you understand it's meaning correctly?

[FleurDuMal]

I read this as "Charlotte Church converts to Islam, almost"

:(

[jamesi]

how is this a big deal at all? obviously, by insisting on "allah" to refer to god at least the church is suggesting that there are different "flavors" but with common fundamental similarities. it seems like this is a baby step

[bousozoku]

...
Everybody is equal in my books, but it seems in today's society we have bastardised a word and used it for our own convenient agenda.
...

Yes, yes, everyone is equally out to get you. No one is ever on your side.

It seems you pick a fight just so you can expound voluminously and cry foul.

Why not just make reasonable discussion instead of trying to make yourself the wounded, over and over and over?

[Bern]

Yes, yes, everyone is equally out to get you. No one is ever on your side.

It seems you pick a fight just so you can expound voluminously and cry foul.

Why not just make reasonable discussion instead of trying to make yourself the wounded, over and over and over?


Wow! You have serious issues don't you. I'm expressing a point of view that may not agree with other people and you go on the attack. I'm not picking a fight, just exercising my freedom of speech. Maybe because I post openly and honestly is your concern, I don't know. But it seems it is you who is "picking a fight" from your unnecessary post in which case I'm not interested.

Am I a victim? No! I will continue to express my view openly and if that is entices debate over the given subject then that's great. Free thinking is the power of the Universe and encourages motivated and intelligent conversation.

If you want to contribute something meaningful and useful to anything I say then I thank you, but if you want to make personal attacks then I have to question your motivation.

[.Andy]

Wow! You have serious issues don't you. I'm expressing a point of view that may not agree with other people and you go on the attack. I'm not picking a fight, just exercising my freedom of speech.
This isn't isn't a free speech issue. The issue is that you're seemingly incapable of backing your point of view that 'we' have had to 'always' placate muslims. You've demonstrated this for two pages by not addressing numerous direct questions to back this up, instead excusing yourself from scrutiny as you don't want to be called 'racist'. Being muslim isn't a race, so it's bizarre how you're afraid of being labeled racist. Surely you can see why we're likely to come to the conclusion that you're argument is indefensible without referring to racist stereotypes? This of course might not be the case, we just don't know as you've refused to explain yourself.

You're free to express your opinions, however you've no right to not have your opinions put under scrutiny. If, as you post, you think intelligent conversation is a virtue, please indulge us by backing up your assertions with some evidence. No one is attacking you, they just want you to explain your arguments.

I'll pose the question again;
The priest is a moron! Why is it that "we" always have to placate the muslims for goodness sake?
Could you expand on this? I'm interested as an australian what you think you've always had to do to placate muslims?

[obeygiant]

Yes, yes, everyone is equally out to get you. No one is ever on your side.

It seems you pick a fight just so you can expound voluminously and cry foul.

Why not just make reasonable discussion instead of trying to make yourself the wounded, over and over and over?

I'm surprised you're a moderator. Because you're not that good at it.

[PCMacUser]

There is no proof that ever happened, nada, nothing whatsoever, at all...

Aww, but that's what they tell people at the Colosseum in Rome...

Reading through the recent posts, it appears that people have become hypersensitive.

So, I'd suggest that everyone takes a deep breath and relaxes.

:)

[Thomas Veil]

I'm surprised you're a moderator. Because your're not that good at it.Uh-oh....

http://www.midmarketmaven.com/uploads/how_to_win_friends-thumb.jpg:p

[solvs]

There is no need for personal attacks
Though harsh and probably uncalled for, that wasn't a personal attack, nor was it meant to be.

No one is attempting to bully the Catholic Church into this – it's a Catholic bishop making the suggestion.
Quoted because some people don't seem to get that part.

I'm expressing a point of view
No offense, but, um... what is that point?

but if you want to make personal attacks then I have to question your motivation.
Again, not a personal attack. Just make your point already. Technically it's a private forum, so free speech doesn't exactly come into play, not that anyone is actually trying to impede yours, but maybe if you spent more time making whatever point you had instead of defending, um, whatever it is your defending, then we'd know what they heck you were talking about and would probably stop "attacking" you.

I'm surprised you're a moderator. Because your're not that good at it.
You spelled you're wrong.

Plus, you know, the obvious...

[Swarmlord]

What's the difference? It's still the god of Abraham.

Which is why Muslims should refer to him as Yahweh.

[Bern]

Well I propose instead of God or Allah how about we pick something neutral like Chris or Alex? That should keep everyone happy.

[TheAnswer]

Well I propose instead of God or Allah how about we pick something neutral like Chris or Alex? That should keep everyone happy.

Chris is short for Christopher, so I don't think that's terribly neutral. Alex is short for Alexander (as in the Great), which might upset the Persians and right-wing conservatives.

We could go with Alejandro...and the Muslims could just pronounce it Allahandro without most people noticing.

[Thomas Veil]

God spoke to me last night, and He told me that He goes by "God" because it's short for His given name: Gordon.

[Osarkon]

God spoke to me last night, and He told me that He goes by "God" because it's short for His given name: Gordon.

Hehe that made me chuckle.

This thread is getting a bit touch-and-go.

I can see where the priest is coming from, in the grand scheme of things it shouldn't matter, but that's the problem in itself. People don't see the grand scheme of things, they mostly see change like this as a threat and mockery to their beliefs.

To each their own, it doesn't involve me anyway. :)

[Bern]

Chris is short for Christopher, so I don't think that's terribly neutral. Alex is short for Alexander (as in the Great), which might upset the Persians and right-wing conservatives.

We could go with Alejandro...and the Muslims could just pronounce it Allahandro without most people noticing.


HHmmm good point, but I have two girl friends whose names are Chris and Alex that's why I thought the names could be neutral :)

How about "THE" ? :D