Panther 7B28 and Jaguar 10.2.7

[MacRumors]

ThinkSecret reports (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/panther7B28jaguar1027.html) that Panther 7B28 and Jaguar 10.2.7 have been seeded.

The update is said to bring extensive changes to various services in the Operating System... but no specifics are given.

ThinkSecret also notes that Version 10.2.7, build 6R34 has also been seeded.

Mac OS X 10.2.7 (codenamed Smeagol) will be the release that accompanies PowerMac G5s. First reported in early June (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/06/20030609153038.shtml), this newest update provides PPC970/64-bit support to Mac OS X, and should be the shipping Operating System on the new PowerMacs.

[DHagan4755]

Seeding 10.2.7? Geez, I hope this boads well for the shipping times of the new G5s!

[arn]

Originally posted by DHagan4755
Seeding 10.2.7? Geez, I hope this boads well for the shipping times of the new G5s!

well... guess it means PowerMacs are not shipping at this time :)

arn

[bennetsaysargh]

i think tat apple is making a lot of progress. it was a day or 2 ago that they askewd macmegasite to cease and desist of the pictures of 7B21, now we're at 7B28.
does this mean that they got through 7 more builds?

[MrMacMan]

Originally posted by Macrumors
...
Mac OS X 10.2.7 (codenamed Smeagol) ...

Well 10.2.7 has been tested already... I don't think this report is correct.

[arn]

Originally posted by MrMacman

Well 10.2.7 has been tested already... I don't think this report is correct.

How do you figure it's been tested already?

arn

[job]

Originally posted by Macrumors
ThinkSecret also notes that Version 10.2.7, build 6R34 has also been seeded.

Can we take this as a sign that at least some of the towers (1.6/1.8) may ship this month?

After all, why seed 10.2.7 without the hardware? :p

Unless it is only for development purposes.

[Powerbook G5]

So is Pather codenamed "Precious"? :D

[Vlade]

:), that should mean we should have 64 bit support when the g5s comes out :)

[bobindashadows]

Originally posted by arn
How do you figure it's been tested already?

arn
Perhaps he thinks because they had it on G5s at MacWorld (I refuse to call it Creative whatever) that it's fully tested. ANd that's wrong.

[MrMacMan]

Originally posted by arn
How do you figure it's been tested already?

arn
nothing on the record, but this might be the quickest seeding ever.

Look I have some info that I can't talk about, but what I can is this:

They want the G5 to get out as fast as they can, they have already tested this, its common sense that apple wants these out, wants the chips and wants to be (finally) a foot ahead of the competition...


Anyway... Panther is not a 64bit OS it just is a 32bit with 64 bit compatibility.

[daveL]

I'm downloading 7B28 as we speak. Download rate is great, so far. Europe is not a download choice on the US ADC site. I think what they are doing is only allow out-of-region downloads during off-peak hours for those regions. Just a guess.

Also 10.2.7 is there for the taking. I haven't looked, yet, to see is there is any benefit for non-G5 machines.

[Alexander]

Originally posted by arn
well... guess it means PowerMacs are not shipping at this time :)

arn

Actually, I wouldn't discount that possibility. The seeds that are posted sometimes turn out to be the exact same builds that end up GM a few days or weeks later. So it's entirely possible that they could ship some G5s in a matter of days.

Not saying that they will, but...

[daveL]

OK, the actual release is not on ADC, only the seed note, at the moment. The note talks of various i/o (F/W, USB 2, etc.) updates. No mention of G5. I think the note is directed at current non-G5 (duh) owners, so the note just gives the updates relevant to existing systems.

[A@ron]

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
So is Pather codenamed "Precious"? :D

I don't know about you but the G5 should have been code named precious :) at least IMHO.

A@ron

[x-virge]

Can anyone give some further details as to the changes in the Chinese Input Method?

With the first seed of Panther a friend sent me screenshots of the Japanese Input Method and it seemed that the text clarity had increased rather dramatically... I'm wondering if they did the same for Chinese, or if there are some other improvements.

[daveL]

Originally posted by x-virge
Can anyone give some further details as to the changes in the Chinese Input Method?

With the first seed of Panther a friend sent me screenshots of the Japanese Input Method and it seemed that the text clarity had increased rather dramatically... I'm wondering if they did the same for Chinese, or if there are some other improvements.
The Chinese Input Method is called out as a specific component that is updated in this beta release.

[Anecdoter]

Does anyone know with any certainty if 10.2.7 will run on G4 systems? The release notes, especially the part about USB 2 cards, quoted by Think Secret seem to imply that it will. But does anyone know this for a fact?

Thanks.

[bokdol]

Originally posted by A@ron
I don't know about you but the G5 should have been code named precious :) at least IMHO.

A@ron

one computer to control all computers.... hahahaha...

[dguisinger]

Seems to me a 10.2.7 G5 seed is pointless.....who is out there that can test it?

Seems to be more of a 10.2.7 "general" release, one that is targetted towards G4 Systems....very possibly different from the 10.2.7 build to be shipped on G5s.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by dguisinger
Seems to me a 10.2.7 G5 seed is pointless.....who is out there that can test it?

Seems to be more of a 10.2.7 "general" release, one that is targetted towards G4 Systems....very possibly different from the 10.2.7 build to be shipped on G5s.

This is exactly what I was thinking. 10.2.7 for the G5s has probably been all but been finalized as testing for these machines was done pretty much all in house. Now they are seeding 10.2.7 so that testing can be done on all older hardware in preparation for the wide release of 10.2.7 later on.

[daveL]

Originally posted by MacBandit
This is exactly what I was thinking. 10.2.7 for the G5s has probably been all but been finalized as testing for these machines was done pretty much all in house. Now they are seeding 10.2.7 so that testing can be done on all older hardware in preparation for the wide release of 10.2.7 later on.
You all just don't read the thread, do you? I posted a while ago, here, that the seed notes for 10.2.7 seemed to be targeted at non-G5 machines and provided various i/o improvements, which are NOT related to G5, per se. It is not a "worthless" release, especially if you have a fairly recent Mac (F/W, USB, etc.).

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by daveL
You all just don't read the thread, do you? I posted a while ago, here, that the seed notes for 10.2.7 seemed to be targeted at non-G5 machines and provided various i/o improvements, which are NOT related to G5, per se. It is not a "worthless" release, especially if you have a fairly recent Mac (F/W, USB, etc.).

Yes, I have read the thread and your post and I read the seed notes previously today on Think Secret. I was just adding my thoughts that the G5 development had probably finalized and this was for a wide release specifically. Also I didn't say anything about useless. Take a deep breath and relax I was just voicing my opinion and yes I concur with you.

[Ambrose Chapel]

How does the Panther seeding compare with Jaguar's from last year? Are they burning the midnight oil or is this a normal release sked? Just wondering if we can expect Panther sooner rather than later...

[henryblackman]

Release schedules can change from product to product and how close the engineers feel they are to completion and how much has changed.

It appears that Apple engineers are indeed working like troupers for Panther. It's not unheard of for this many seeds so quickly, but for the amount of changes to have been implemented this rapidly is pretty cool. Having said that, perhaps they have implemented all this already, and now it's just merging their code with the Panther branch of the OS code and sorting out the problems.

As for 10.2.7 this could be out pretty quick (if they are releasing it for everyone), release schedule from seed can be as little as a couple of days and as much as a couple of weeks.

[silvergunuk]

As long as they sort out this ATI radeon 8500 driver for 10.2.7 i'll welcome the update.

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by Vlade
that should mean we should have 64 bit support when the g5s comes out

Most of the reports, including posting from Apple employees, have been saying that Panther will be a 32-bit system.

The operating system will support more than 4 GiB of RAM, but programs will be able to use only 4 GiB (or 2GiB) - same as now.

Extended memory support doesn't mean 64-bit support - Linux and Windows support up to 64 GiB on x86 processors today, but they are clearly 32-bit systems.

[dguisinger]

People are getting so much of this wrong regarding 64-bits.

What is a 64-bit operating system? Its a system with 64-bit memory pointers, and that uses 64-bit integers for most system calls. Obviously they are not going to rewrite Panther to 64-bit. Most function calls do not need 64-bit values passed.

They obviously have rewritten memory handling.....and disk IO already was 64-bit in block addressing.

Applications can use 64-bit integer math anytime they wish because its part of the standard PowerPC instruction set. As long as they are on a G5 the 64-bit code won't cause an exception.

I think people are running around complaining that its not a 64-bit OS when they have no idea what that means for them.

Absolutely Nothing

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by dguisinger
What is a 64-bit operating system? Its a system with 64-bit memory pointers, and that uses 64-bit integers for most system calls.

The 64-bit memory pointers are the key. There's no need to promote all system integers to 64-bit integers, and in fact that would be counter-productive in many cases.

Some APIs would benefit, but as you say, even today on 32-bit Mac OS X you find that file and I/O systems use wider integers for file offsets and on-disk structures. (Without wider file offset values, you couldn't deal with files larger than 2 GB on a system with UNIX file semantics.)


Applications can use 64-bit integer math anytime they wish because its part of the standard PowerPC instruction set. As long as they are on a G5 the 64-bit code won't cause an exception.

ALthough probably true, very few applications use enough 64-bit integer arithmetic to go to the trouble of building special G5 images. The G4-compatible 64-bit integer arithmetic is more than fast enough, so why build and maintain 2 sets of application files?

(I say "probably" because I haven't found PPC970 programming documentation that clearly states that mixed-mode use of the integer registers (64-bits for integers, 32-bits for pointers) is permitted. The Motorola PPC 64-bit docs imply that enabling 64-bit integer arithmetic also enables 64-bit pointers. I'd welcome any links to PPC970 programming manuals.)


I think people are running around complaining that its not a 64-bit OS when they have no idea what that means for them.

Absolutely Nothing [/B]

True.

And other people are running around bragging that it *is* a 64-bit system when:

a) it's not

b) it means absolutely nothing to them (and their apps)

Apple marketing is a serious offender in this regard.... :D

[Rincewind42]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
The operating system will support more than 4 GiB of RAM, but programs will be able to use only 4 GiB (or 2GiB) - same as now.

4GB - the application memory map is partitioned enough that you can only get about 1.75 contigous, but iirc all but about 1GB of an app memory space is free for non-system allocations.

Although probably true, very few applications use enough 64-bit integer arithmetic to go to the trouble of building special G5 images. The G4-compatible 64-bit integer arithmetic is more than fast enough, so why build and maintain 2 sets of application files?

(I say "probably" because I haven't found PPC970 programming documentation that clearly states that mixed-mode use of the integer registers (64-bits for integers, 32-bits for pointers) is permitted. The Motorola PPC 64-bit docs imply that enabling 64-bit integer arithmetic also enables 64-bit pointers. I'd welcome any links to PPC970 programming manuals.)

True, it does depend greatly on your application as to if native 64-bit ints will have a decided impact on your performance - I presume that those who would use it know who they are =).

But it is possible on the 970 to use 64-bit integer math without using 64-bit pointers. Apple has some technotes on how to access this from gcc.

TN2086 (http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn/tn2086.html)
TN2087 (http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn/tn2087.html)

And IBM's documentation on the 970 is available here: IBM PowerPC 970 Documentation (http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/products/PowerPC_970_Microprocessor)

[bennetsaysargh]

someone said USB in 10.2.7.
could that mean the lates G4s that had the USB2 chipsets or something could have USB2 because of this update?

[3-22]

I'm still curious what they will do for us early G5 buyers when Panther is released. It's a shame I'll probably get Jaguar all setup only to wipe everything out with Panther a month or two later. (I'm new to OS X, can you upgrade the OS and not wipe out your pictures, music, settings, etc.?) Plus, will they charge me $129 on top of the thousands I just put out for my new system. Don't know, hopefully they will offer some kind of discount program for the G5's owners. I guess we'll see, my ship date on Apple still says 9/2. I wonder what kind of learning curve there will be between Jaguar and Panther.

[sandsl]

I'm new to OS X, can you upgrade the OS and not wipe out your pictures, music, settings, etc.?
Yes you can upgrade - all settings, music, pictures, documents etc remain.

Plus, will they charge me $129 on top of the thousands I just put out for my new system.
Maybe - depends when you buy the G5, if it comes with any coupons, Apple's up-to-date program etc. Wait and see, but be prepared to pay $129.

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by bennetsaysargh
i think tat apple is making a lot of progress. it was a day or 2 ago that they askewd macmegasite to cease and desist of the pictures of 7B21, now we're at 7B28.
does this mean that they got through 7 more builds?

Builds are generally daily (certainly, Safari builds were). It takes a few days for a build to pass internal QA and be passed along to general external testers.

This is common practice in just about every corner of the software world.

[AppleMatt]

Originally posted by daveL
OK, the actual release is not on ADC, only the seed note, at the moment. The note talks of various i/o (F/W, USB 2, etc.) updates. No mention of G5. I think the note is directed at current non-G5 (duh) owners, so the note just gives the updates relevant to existing systems.

I got torn to pieces when I said Apple would release 10.2.7 system-wide.

Generally the response was "Look idiot, 10.2.7 is for G5's only, nothing else. Now go away"

If only I could remember all their user names, I'd be sending PM's gloating :D

AppleMatt

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
So is Pather codenamed "Precious"? :D

"Precious" would be the G5.

Obscure question: who had the ring before Smeagol?

IMHO, "Smeagol" would be a better code-name for Panther than for 10.2.7 ... Panther isn't all 64-bit pretty yet either ...

[KentuckyApple]

bilbo found the ring in smeagol's cave

[chetwilliams]

Originally posted by jettredmont


Obscure question: who had the ring before Smeagol?

Geek alert!

I believe Isildur had the ring before Smeagol. It brought about his death and was sometimes called Isildur's Bane. Could be wrong. Been a while since I read the books.

[ryaxnb]

Originally posted by dguisinger
very possibly different from the 10.2.7 build to be shipped on G5s. [/B]
Yes, but Apple probably won't make a 64-bit OS for a while, since apparently the 970 (G5) can run standard PPC programs at full speed. Remember how long it took of them to make a PPC-native OS (till OS 8 for Finder, OS 9 or so for complete system)?

[ryaxnb]

Originally posted by 3-22
(I'm new to OS X, can you upgrade the OS and not wipe out your pictures, music, settings, etc.?)
Yes, you can. Even if you do a "clean install" it keeps most of them.
BTW, I'm new to OS X too (less then 3 months!)

[jaedreth]

*Lowers his head onto the chopping block*

Have fun. ;)

Jaedreth

[vrapan]

hmmm... I am new too but as far as I understand it this is how it goes.
You can do an Upgrade Install: This keeps everything on your system just updates pieces that need updating (Don't shoot people it is a very simplistic explanationa I know but it is intentional)

You can do an Archive and Install: This cleans just about everything apart from your settings and "archives" your user folder to a folder in your system from where you can use your files.

You can also do a Clean Install: This formats your HD so you lose your data. The only way you can preserve your data in this type of install is to make a backup on an external drive or a second HD in your system or a different partition than the one you are installing your MacOSX.

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by Rincewind42
But it is possible on the 970 to use 64-bit integer math without using 64-bit pointers. Apple has some technotes on how to access this from gcc.

TN2086 (http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn/tn2086.html)
TN2087 (http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn/tn2087.html)

Thank you, that is pretty definitive!

[sickracer2015]

10.2.7 WAS NOT SEEDED.. only the seed notes were given not the actual update

[smada]

so when should we expect panther to be released in stores?

[zedwards]

Originally posted by smada
so when should we expect panther to be released in stores?
Didn't they say the by the end of the year? I wouln't count on it any earlier.

[richard5mith]

In order to be included in Panther, the latest release of Python had to be finished by August 1st. That might give you an idea of release dates.

Downloading the latest build now. Getting a good rate, will install it immediately and we'll see what's changed.

[vrapan]

I haven't installed my 7B28 yet it is downloading but here is what I think about Panther release:

The 7B21 was a MAJOR improvement over 7A202. Stability performance several bugs. It seems from the list on the seed note that 7B28 is a major improvement as well. If they keep this pace they might have it ready sooner than later. Jobs said I think "before the end of the year". It seems like 3 months from now is a logical assumption and I wouldn't be surprised if it was earlier than that.

Having said that the system is still a long way from a release OS. There are still major bugs stability and performance issues not as much on the OS itself but in the applications accompanying it. Mail, safari,address, itunes and so on have problems and I wouldn't be surprised to see many more problems with 3rd party apps. On top of my head Roxio Toast, CandyBar and a few other apps I use are either broken or incredibly unstable. I will keep my prediction thought that by the end of October it should be selling.

[daveL]

Given that we haven't had time to evaluate 7B28, I think it's premature to declare what the current state of Panther is. I've been very impressed with this latest beta (I just finished a clean install).

If you look back in the archives, you'll see that mid-September has been the target date for Panther's release. Nothing has happened to indicate that has changed.

People keep going back to the "by the end of the year" statement, but as I've said before, Apple uses this expression all the time (iTMS for Windows, for example). It's just Apple's way of not giving out release dates in advance.

[daveL]

The ADC site now has the 10.2.7 build available for download. It's 33.1 MB.

[jaedreth]

So it's not just seed notes, it is a full seed. Whoohoo!

Too bad I don't have a paid membership.

LOL

Jaedreth

[AppleMatt]

Originally posted by jaedreth
*Lowers his head onto the chopping block*

Have fun. ;)

Jaedreth

I...I just can't do it! I'll have to let you go (reaches down to undo stocks but accidentally lets go of rope).

Oops.

AppleMatt

[x-virge]

Originally posted by daveL
The Chinese Input Method is called out as a specific component that is updated in this beta release.

Yeah, no crap dude, that's why I asked for more details. Thanks for contributing, though.

[daveL]

Originally posted by x-virge
Yeah, no crap dude, that's why I asked for more details. Thanks for contributing, though.
I'm not Chinese, so ...

The way I read your post was: "The Japanese Input Method looked alot better in the last beta release, has the Chinese Input Method improved in this release?" I was responding that it was called out as a component that had seen changes in this latest release, implying that it had probably improved. What do you want, a book report?