More Panther 7B28 Details

[MacRumors]

AppleInsider posts (http://www.appleinsider.com/article2.php?id=128) more screenshots and details of the most recent Panther Build - 7B28. They summarize:

With little to no visual or feature alterations made in this latest build of Panther, it appears that the development process is starting to wind down. Panther was originally slated for a September release, and from the looks of the latest builds, should hit that target.

MacNews.net.tc (http://macintosh.fryke.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST&f=10&t=179) (perm link (http://macintosh.fryke.com/index.html)) posts their installation notes on the same build.

[Powerbook G5]

It seems like the Appleinsider article isn't working. I hope this news that Panther could possibly be released next month turns out to be true, because I personally cannot wait for all these new goodies, plus it makes it likely that the new PowerBooks could ship with it preloaded, which means lower costs for users without having to upgrade to Panther on top of also buying a new computer.

[arn]

heh... was working just a few seconds ago. guess wait it out...

looks like MacNN's mysql server is having issues.

arn

[mac15]

apple legal will pull his thing down , either that or his site will flood with traffic :)

[SeaFox]

AppleInsider seems to be down. Apple's legal arm reaches it's large scalely fingers out again.

[Powerbook G5]

I'm surprised how long they've gone with posting pics of Panther for the past month or so. Same with Think secret, they have hundreds of pictures from their in depth series. I would have sworn that Apple legal would have shut that down within a day or two. Oh well, I can't complain. I have been drooling over those pictures since I saw the keynote from WWDC. With every update, it seems like Panther is shaping up to be more worth its pricetag. Let's just hope it's soon before I go mad...you don't want me to go mad...it is not pretty.

[kb9000]

I would pay $129 just for the zooming animated icons!

[mac15]

Originally posted by kb9000
I would pay $129 just for the zooming animated icons!

oh comon, panther is more than that. Panther is as important of an update as 10.1 was to 10.0

[iJon]

panther has been pretty cool, but on my powerbook it has one bug that is drving me crazy. after i install, some time after that the computer changes to me to a standard user. now i cant install anything or change anything on my computer. my powermac i havent noticed the problem so i dont know whats goin on.

iJon

[Powerbook G5]

I am still upset that I got stuck with 10.0, too. It basically scared me away from OS X altogether for the past three years after seeing how horribly it ran on my G3 PowerBook. But Panther, ooo, how I adore you! All I can say is expose will rock my world!

[synthetickittie]

if panther comes out next month I'll be one of the lame fools who waits outside the store hours and hours before it opens to be one of the first to get it, actually that'll happen no matter when they release it. Obviously I want it sooner then latter BUT Id rather them get it perfect and wait a few more months then to buy it and have it still have a few bugs yet Im sure apple knows what they're doing and will release it when its good and ready. I just got my first mac about 6 months ago so I have no clue how jaguar was when it was very first released.. anyone know if it had any annoying bugs before the first update?

[mac15]

Yeah Jaguar had alot of bugs, but apple squished most of them with the release of 10.2.1 about 4-5weeks after it hit the shelves. Jaguar didn't its potential until 10.2.3 , it picked up massive speed improvements

[nagromme]

Panther has so much new, I'd be amazed if it's truly complete next month. I'd be happy to have it though.

(Don't expect any miracles on a PBG3... better than 10.0, yes, but not what you'd call fast, I'm sure. Apple doesn't even support the built-in video board for hardware video acceleration.)

[Powerbook G5]

When I get Panther, it will be running on a new 15" AlBook :) I learned my lesson trying to run OS X on my PowerBook G3 already. With an 8 meg video card, it just plain sucks no matter how fast the system is because it doesn't support Quartz...It'd be nice to just turn off all those extra Aqua perks that take up so much graphics power, because that is a big part of what slows down my system if I had to guess. I just hope Panther ships in September so it is preinstalled, because I know it will be worth it, but that extra $130 could be used towards an iSight or Keynote or a nice 512 meg RAM upgrade. :D

[hexor]

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
When I get Panther, it will be running on a new 15" AlBook :) I learned my lesson trying to run OS X on my PowerBook G3 already. With an 8 meg video card, it just plain sucks no matter how fast the system is because it doesn't support Quartz...It'd be nice to just turn off all those extra Aqua perks that take up so much graphics power, because that is a big part of what slows down my system if I had to guess. I just hope Panther ships in September so it is preinstalled, because I know it will be worth it, but that extra $130 could be used towards an iSight or Keynote or a nice 512 meg RAM upgrade. :D

On my Pismo OS X works great.. I have however replaced the hard disk with a much faster IBM travelstar which could be making a huge difference. I use it every day quite intensively.. including app development... I've recently even been using a 1.25 G4 DP and am still able to go back to the pismo without feeling like I just fell into a barell of mollasses in december..

[tizza]

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
I just hope Panther ships in September so it is preinstalled

I agree, it would seem a bit crazy to release new PB's and then only have us all upgrade to Panther. But if the rumors about Motorola being too slack-ass to get the new chips out on time, being the reason for the PB delays, then maybe Apple never intended the realease of the PB's and Panther to be so close, so they may even delay the PB release even more now just so they can release Panther pre-insatlled on the new machines.... just a thought

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by iJon
panther has been pretty cool, but on my powerbook it has one bug that is drving me crazy. after i install, some time after that the computer changes to me to a standard user. now i cant install anything or change anything on my computer. my powermac i havent noticed the problem so i dont know whats goin on.

iJon

Oh, you don't know?! Apple has a new user prowess app. It runs all the time and determines a users aptitude level. If a user fails to meet a certain level of criteria it throttles them back to a basic user thus preventing them from hacking their own head off by doing things they shouldn't.;) :p

[iJon]

Originally posted by MacBandit
Oh, you don't know?! Apple has a new user prowess app. It runs all the time and determines a users aptitude level. If a user fails to meet a certain level of criteria it throttles them back to a basic user thus preventing them from hacking their own head off by doing things they shouldn't.;) :p
haha, well whatever the hell it is its driving me crazy. when i installed 28 earlier today i was admin, so i was like ok its fixed. i came back later tonight to install lapcop on my computer and i was back to standard user and basically locked out of my own system without reinstalling panther.

iJon

[guifa]

Hopefully before release they can fix this annoying bug with Finder.

I dunno what it is, but Finder will constantly use every bit of idle CPU I have, and after having the system up for a day or two, it gets bad about giving it up too. It's sad when changing windows on a 17" Powerbook causes iTunes to skip. And the only programs you're running at the time are Finder, iTunes, iChat, Process Viewer and XCode, and XCode isn't doing anything processor intensive.

Process Viewer reports Finder using 80%+ of my CPU.....arg.....that and battery life is shot too. I'm getting maybe 2 hours on the Panther builds, but I got just over 3 on Jaguar.

[iJon]

Originally posted by guifa
Hopefully before release they can fix this annoying bug with Finder.

I dunno what it is, but Finder will constantly use every bit of idle CPU I have, and after having the system up for a day or two, it gets bad about giving it up too. It's sad when changing windows on a 17" Powerbook causes iTunes to skip. And the only programs you're running at the time are Finder, iTunes, iChat, Process Viewer and XCode, and XCode isn't doing anything processor intensive.

Process Viewer reports Finder using 80%+ of my CPU.....arg.....that and battery life is shot too. I'm getting maybe 2 hours on the Panther builds, but I got just over 3 on Jaguar.
so thats why my computer has bene goign slow. almost everything i do makes my music skip. i know i only have 256mb of ram but jaguar never did this. and i usually only have safari, mail, itunes and ichat open.

iJon

[onemilkid]

I already got my Keynote admission. I just hope that panther will be ready by then, Mr. Jobs will give the Keynote (like last year) and every attendee will receive a free Box of Panther (and a Dual G5 just that we perceive the system as very fast;-)

[foniks2020]

Originally posted by iJon
so thats why my computer has bene goign slow. almost everything i do makes my music skip. i know i only have 256mb of ram but jaguar never did this. and i usually only have safari, mail, itunes and ichat open.

iJon

256 MB of RAM! What is this 1992? Seriously, even in Windows land RAM is the biggest 'performance' bottleneck that you as the user can fix and relatively cheaply. Double it and you will see an amazing change happen, triple or quadruple it and you'll wonder if you were really just living a nightmare the whole time.

[iJon]

Originally posted by foniks2020
256 MB of RAM! What is this 1992? Seriously, even in Windows land RAM is the biggest 'performance' bottleneck that you as the user can fix and relatively cheaply. Double it and you will see an amazing change happen, triple or quadruple it and you'll wonder if you were really just living a nightmare the whole time.
ah i dont care, all i do on this computer is listen to music, talk, check mail and stuff like that. it has never been bad in jaguar, just now in panther. but thats ok, its a beta os. i already told my mom i want more when my g5 comes in because ill start learning final cut as soon as the computer gets here.

iJon

[Linc]

Lots of people seem to be compaining about battery life, but the 7B21 and 28 on my 1ghz TiBook have been getting 4+ hours at normal usage, as opposed to the 2.5 hrs or so under jag. It has been running a whole lot faster and I'm in love with it, although one thing has stopped me from using it: EOModeler is broken under it! So I have set the machine up so i can dual boot between jag and panther, which really shows the improvements being made. All in all I can see it easily being ready next month, as long as filevault gets done! (anyone seen anything to do with it?)

[vrapan]

I only have 256RAM (intending to max it out soon) but Panther 7B28 is crazily fast. I mean with Jag after opening Safari, Word, iTunes and iChat the system would start complaining the hard drive would spin its head to death and the system would become very slow after trying to open something more. With 7B28 I have 12 yeap 12 programs open and several documents from them and it is flying I mean it is like I have nothing open - the HD still spins quite a bit but the system does not show it.

As about battery life hmm it gives me 3:30 on a full battery as opposed to 2:30 on Jag.... I love Panther it seems like I have upgraded my 12" PB.

[henryblackman]

Originally posted by iJon
ah i dont care, all i do on this computer is listen to music, talk, check mail and stuff like that. it has never been bad in jaguar, just now in panther. but thats ok, its a beta os.
iJon

You're making an assumption on what is not a beta-OS, it's a "seed" and still very much incomplete.

Havin said that, I've, so far, found Panther to be dramatically faster, more powerful and more friendly. I think MS would model themselves on Apple, Windows gets slower every release, OS X gets faster.

What I'd like to see though is Cocoa apps using less CPU. I'm shocked to see them use 50 % of CPU just to print text to a drawer. Hopefully changes to GCC will alleviate this in Panther shipped. They do seem to be working on performance and stability issues now rather than features.

The Apple Insider article says it was originally intended to ship for September, but that's not what Steve said. He said end of year. Having said that shipping for September gets the education crowd on board this academic year - which is a high priority for them.

[MacsRgr8]

Originally posted by onemilkid
I already got my Keynote admission. I just hope that panther will be ready by then, Mr. Jobs will give the Keynote (like last year) and every attendee will receive a free Box of Panther (and a Dual G5 just that we perceive the system as very fast;-)

I'll be there too!
Got my confirmation aswell. But is it a FACT that Steve will be there for his beloved Keynote?

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by henryblackman
I think MS would model themselves on Apple, Windows gets slower every release, OS X gets faster.


Yeah, it's almost as responsive as OS9 now... :rolleyes:

[Samir 3.0]

I know that this question could be a little of topic but what I will exactly get when i'll upgrade to Panther???
I've payed for Jaguar last november and when panther will be out there will be an upgrade disk like the one shipped with jaguar (i can't remember exactly how it works but maybe i've heard at the keynote) or i'll find a Panther only upgrade disk like the one with Jaguar 10.2.5???

Thx in advance and sorry for my not so fluent english

[kb9000]

Originally posted by Samir 3.0
I know that this question could be a little of topic but what I will exactly get when i'll upgrade to Panther???

If you purchase it you will get the full install, not just an upgrade CD. The content is just the same though.

[gordyt]

Hello All,

Installed 7B28 last night on a 17" Powerbook. Problems/fixes I've noticed:

1. Fixed - iTunes crashing when iPod plugged in
2. Broke - installing 7B28 removed admin privileges from all users. Had to boot the first install disk, give root a password, boot back into OS, then use root account/password to unlock user system pref and turn back on admin privilege checkbox.
3. Still Broke - Address book still crashes. But disabling Bluetooth by relocating these files/folders is a workaround (at the expense of no Bluetooth):
/System/Library/Frameworks/IOBluetoothUI.framework
/System/Library/CoreServices/BluetoothUIServer.app
/usr/sbin/blued

--gordon

[AppleMatt]

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
I'm surprised how long they've gone with posting pics of Panther for the past month or so. Same with Think secret, they have hundreds of pictures from their in depth series. I would have sworn that Apple legal would have shut that down within a day or two. Oh well, I can't complain. I have been drooling over those pictures since I saw the keynote from WWDC. With every update, it seems like Panther is shaping up to be more worth its pricetag. Let's just hope it's soon before I go mad...you don't want me to go mad...it is not pretty.

Although development of new features was supposed to have halted by now, it makes you wonder. Obviously Apple don't want to release a buggy file-vault, as that would really tick everyone off, but I wonder if they're not too bothered because they're still internally testing a few other goodies, and they see most of it as visual, ie, "expose is smoother", "mail is faster", "here's a version number", "safari doesn't crash here anymore" etc etc.

Originally posted by MacBandit
Oh, you don't know?! Apple has a new user prowess app. It runs all the time and determines a users aptitude level. If a user fails to meet a certain level of criteria it throttles them back to a basic user thus preventing them from hacking their own head off by doing things they shouldn't.

:D

AppleMatt

[AppleMatt]

Originally posted by henryblackman

Havin said that, I've, so far, found Panther to be dramatically faster, more powerful and more friendly. I think MS would model themselves on Apple, Windows gets slower every release, OS X gets faster.

Definatly. This always happens with Apple upgrades, even software. I remember the dramatic jump from 9.0.4 > 9.1, and even QT 6.0 > 6.1, they keep getting faster on the same hardware. Windows says "even faster* productivity"

Now I'm hoping they remove all OS 9 code from Panther's QuickTime, that's really annoyed me for ages. It's a core technology!

AppleMatt

*once you've upgraded your machine to these ludicrous specs

[Powerbook G5]

Yeah, the Wintel world always insists your brand new system that is top of the line the day you order it from Dell is out of date by the time it gets shipped to you. I just picked up some DVDs yesterday and one lets you play it on the PC "at amazing HD clarity, all you need are these basic specs: 3.06 GHz P4/HTT, 512 Megs RAM, 128 meg video card (256 optimal), XP professional, WMP 9, and a monitor resolution of at least 1600x1200" I am just sure that *everyone* has a PC that is at least that fast...

[Squire]

Originally posted by kb9000
If you purchase it you will get the full install, not just an upgrade CD. The content is just the same though.

Please excuse me if this is a brutally stupid question. (I just switched 6 months ago.)

I'm thinking of buying Panther, too, but I was wondering...does it erase everything on my hard drive when it installs? Would I have to back everything up?

Thanks.

Squire

P.S. Gimme a break. I've only installed one Mac OS in my life. ;)

[Mudbug]

you'll be able to install it as an upgrade over jaguar, so it'll leave your file directories alone, upgrading the system software only. But as in every upgrade case, be sure and make a backup of your stuff before you do it - things can (and do) go wrong...

[Squire]

Originally posted by Mudbug
you'll be able to install it as an upgrade over jaguar, so it'll leave your file directories alone, upgrading the system software only. But as in every upgrade case, be sure and make a backup of your stuff before you do it - things can (and do) go wrong...

Cool. Thanks. Maybe it would be a good idea to ditch everything. Clean house. My HD is like a maze. (I didn't opt for the 50-dollar "switch" software.)

Squire

<Edit: Oh. I checked out your avatar-to-be. Nice.>

[chromos]

Originally posted by Linc
Lots of people seem to be compaining about battery life, but the 7B21 and 28 on my 1ghz TiBook have been getting 4+ hours at normal usage, as opposed to the 2.5 hrs or so under jag.

This is so good to hear! It has been really depressing to see my battery life decrease with each update to Jaguar. I had given up any hope of believing Apple considered battery life an integral part of a computer's usability.

[guifa]

Originally posted by chromos
This is so good to hear! It has been really depressing to see my battery life decrease with each update to Jaguar. I had given up any hope of believing Apple considered battery life an integral part of a computer's usability.
It seems battery life is pretty jumpy all around on Panther. He and others may have gotten a boost in battery life, but some (myself included) have gotten a decrease.

[gordyt]

Interesting thing happened this morning...I installed the 7B28 develper tools. Shortly after that I was unable to start *any* regular application. Any app that I tried to run would instead case the application "IORegistryExplorer" to be started. I had to boot into single-user mode and delete the /Developer directory.

--gordon

[soosy]

Anyone have pics of what selected icons in the Finder now look like?

I REALLY hated the inset rectangular effect. It made the icons look like yucky buttons.

I'm also not too pleased the way labels look -- especially in column view. I guess I'm just old school.

But above all, I keep waiting for them to announce theme support. There's no way I'll tolerate a metal Finder. (I want non-metal WITH Finder toolbars dammit!)

[Masker]

Originally posted by soosy
Anyone have pics of what selected icons in the Finder now look like?

I REALLY hated the inset rectangular effect. It made the icons look like yucky buttons.

I'm also not too pleased the way labels look -- especially in column view. I guess I'm just old school.

But above all, I keep waiting for them to announce theme support. There's no way I'll tolerate a metal Finder. (I want non-metal WITH Finder toolbars dammit!)

Oh, you WILL tolerate it, I'm sure, if you have no choice. The new Finder is so slick that you won't want to go back once you start using it...

[ryaxnb]

Originally posted by foniks2020
256 MB of RAM! What is this 1992?
The iBook I'm using has only 256MB RAM, and it runs Jaguar fine.

[rDLr]

I often hear people reporting that the finder is using too much memory or CPU. Are these resources being taken advantage of to make the finder faster? Finder performance is usually the top complaint about Mac OS X. When the finder is sluggish it makes the whole system feel slow, even if it isn't. So my question is, isn't it good if the finder uses everything it can get so it can be faster? If it scales usage back when the system is busy with other tasks, it seems like this would be desirable.

[Powerbook G5]

If you don't like the metal, can't you just download one of the many themes that are all over the net? I've seen quite a few, but personally, I like the brushed metal look...it's like a nice accent you find all over the interiors in Ferraris and Audis :) Also, Arn has already posted the new selected icons graphics, and they don't look that bad. Just realize that Panther isn't out yet and with each seed, it seems like Apple does one or two GUI tweaks, so as far as we know, these little things could be a lot different in a month or two when you install the release version of 10.3.

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by foniks2020
256 MB of RAM! What is this 1992?


In '92, 256 MB of RAM would have cost a couple thousand dollars if you could have found a machine to put it in!

256 MB or even 128 MB was not considered paltry until OSX came along unless you were a serious Photoshop user.

It is ridiculous that Apple doesn't furnish all new machines with 512 MB right from the start.

- j

[vrapan]

Originally posted by foniks2020
256 MB of RAM! What is this 1992?


ummm I bought my first 486 on 1996 and it had only 16... In truth it is not that long ago when 128MB seemed perfectly fine. Windows XP and Mac OS X needed more Ram as OS. Apart from heavy memory programs you should be able to run the OS with a few windows open fine with 256MB. Under Jag I should maintain some self discipline on how many windows I have open. On Panther that is much less needed but after 12 - 13 programs it starts complaining. Now I could max it to 640 - or spend 600$ on one of those new 1GB but guess what I haven't done either cause so far it is fine. I am planning on upgrading it soon but only to minimise the occasional crash than speed concerns. And if Panther keeps getting speedier I might save the mone and put it on an external FireWire for backup.

[Powerbook G5]

I have 192 megs of RAM on my G3 running 9.2 and it's damn fast. But yes, once I get my new PowerBook and run OS X I am planning on getting it up to 1 GB RAM as one of the first things I do with it. You should see my sister's Compaq running XP, I went to look at memory usage and right after boot, Windows XP is using over 200 megs of her 256 megs RAM...I can only imagine how my OS X uses.

[ColdZero]

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
Yeah, the Wintel world always insists your brand new system that is top of the line the day you order it from Dell is out of date by the time it gets shipped to you. I just picked up some DVDs yesterday and one lets you play it on the PC "at amazing HD clarity, all you need are these basic specs: 3.06 GHz P4/HTT, 512 Megs RAM, 128 meg video card (256 optimal), XP professional, WMP 9, and a monitor resolution of at least 1600x1200" I am just sure that *everyone* has a PC that is at least that fast...

I somehow doubt this post, since you can play a DVD on a Pentium 90 MHz with hardware decoding. Even without hardware decoding playing a DVD will use less than 40% of a P3 700Mhz. I know of 1 256MB consumer graphics card, the Radeon 9800 Pro, and that was just released. XP Professional is the exact same thing as XP home pretty much. And has nothing to do with DVD support. Since HD resoutions are 720 and 1080, when you convert them to PC resolutions you get 1280x720 for 720p and 1920x540 for 1080i. So I don't see how 1600x1200 fits in anywhere here. A 1280x768, which most 17" monitors are capable of doing would be a more reasonable answer.

Even better, lets do a little math using your figures.

1600x1200 = 1,920,000 pixels on the screen. Now lets say its 24 bit color.

1,920,000 * 24bits = 46,080,000 bits for every screen that appears on the monitor.

Now monitor refreshes are a different story. But anyway, the picture changes 24 times per second to simulate live motion.

46,080,000 * 24 = 1,105,920,000 bits every second.

Say the movie is 2 hours long so 120 minutes.

60Seconds * 120 Minutes * 1,105,920,000 = 7,962,624,000,000 bits for a 2 hour DVD, not including extras.

Convert it to MB.
7,962,624,000,000 / 8 (bits per byte) / 1,048,576 = 949,218.75 MB

Even with compression, thats a lot more than what can fit on a single DVD. :rolleyes:

So tell me where you got this magical technology that can fit almost 1 tb on 1 DVD. Better yet, which DVDs did you buy that said this.

Next time before you go bashing another platform, try not to make up stories to prove your point.

[vrapan]

He was exaggerating quite obviously but he is quite right. Never windows upgrades have made you feel better for your hardware. I mean when I was using jag I thought I needed the 640 with Panther the situation is so much better that I think that my little 867MHz PB is so fast that well I dont "need" it. Made me feel like these 867MHz and 256 can take me through another couple of years no prob.

I remember in contrast when I installed Win95 on my win3.1 the 16MB was a joke my 486 in 120MHz was even more of a joke and I won't even say a thing about the graphics card. Same story with 98 (ME I wont touch cause even with 510MB they were crashing like every other second) and as soon as XP came my 1.4GHz with 384MB RAM felt sluggish. It was playing fine DVDs (even my 700MHz 256MB played them fine) but the machine felt a lot slower than 98SE. On the contrary my machine came wiht 10.2.3 and up to the 10.2.6 it was more responsive although I have it loaded with programs. With 7B28 I think that 256MB is fine unless you do picture and video or sound editing. The machine is super snappy. I bet that Longhorn will need the latest processor and a bare minimum of 512MB. And I also bet that Panther will run on a 500MHz 256MB RAM iBook / TiBook wonderfully. They might be asking you for 130$ but they don't demand a conservative 400$ upgrade to run better or the purchase of a new machine altogether.

[ColdZero]

Don't take this the wrong way but, is it that OS X is getting faster and faster or is it finally getting to the way it should have been written in 10.0? All these updates are nice and all, but this is the way that it should have been written in the first place. I'm not talking about adding features like Expose and stuff, I'm talking about responsiveness. Is it OS X getting faster because they are fixing the things that should have been fixed originally or is it that it is getting faster because they are adding new features? And is windows making your computer slower, or introducing new technologies and abilities that require faster processors and such? Luna is a new rendering engine for XP and has higher requirements than the ones found in 2k, ME, etc because it does more. Personally I think 10.0 should have been as responsive as 10.2. Apple controlled everything about the OS and hardware it would be running on, there wasn't an excuse to have to wait till 10.2 and 10.3 to get these speed improvements. It is impressive that XP can run on any random x86 hardware out there in a bajillion different combinations and run as well and as fast as it does. Just my $0.02. BTW I'm using Panther, Jaguar and XP Pro on my various computers.

[iJon]

Originally posted by gordyt
Hello All,

Installed 7B28 last night on a 17" Powerbook. Problems/fixes I've noticed:

1. Fixed - iTunes crashing when iPod plugged in
2. Broke - installing 7B28 removed admin privileges from all users. Had to boot the first install disk, give root a password, boot back into OS, then use root account/password to unlock user system pref and turn back on admin privilege checkbox.
3. Still Broke - Address book still crashes. But disabling Bluetooth by relocating these files/folders is a workaround (at the expense of no Bluetooth):
/System/Library/Frameworks/IOBluetoothUI.framework
/System/Library/CoreServices/BluetoothUIServer.app
/usr/sbin/blued

--gordon
im having the privliges problem as well. how did you enable root from the boot up disc, i didnt know you could do that.

iJon

[vrapan]

Well I started using MacOS X on 10.2.3 anyway so I am not able to comment on how bad 10.0 was (have heard it was very bad) the problem is though that 10.2 was a decent running OS. I mean XP was never as smooth responsive and fast on 1.4GHz and 384MB as 10.2 is on a bare minimum 12" PB. Maybe MacOS X should have been as fast as 10.3 is I dont know but this I do know:

I will give you that XP has a very different interface and all but it is all eye candy no practicality I always reverted back to the look of 2000 because I couldn't stand all these horribly miced and matched colors and all these oversized title bars and all. Now this is of course very subjective but I was running Win XP without the eye candy and it was slower and less responsive than 10.2 is on my PB.

And at the end of the day XP did not add that much more to 2000 functionality or extra stuff. Panther is adding quite a few things to Jag.

As a simple example you can see it on programs themselves. WMP 7 was faster and more responsive than 8 which in turn was faster than 9. And these are on faster machines not on the same machine. QT 5 was slower than 6 which was slower than 6.1 and now it is even faster.

As about the comment that XP runs on different machines I give them that and I think that on this part MS has done miracles it runs just about on any hardware you have as long as it is at least 1.6GHz and has 512MB with a decent 32MB graphics card on anything below that gets toooo slow too easily.

All I am trying to say is that I really don't know how much faster 10.0 should have been or how fast XP could have been all I am saying is that i spent 4 months ago 1800$ buying a 12" PB and now I feel that I can keep it unchanged if I wish running panther until I feel like to give it up and I dont think it will be soon at all. I went through 5 different Windows laptops in 6 years because they were tooooo slow as I was moving up the scale of Windows. To me that means that someone is putting effort on optimizing the performance of the OS when the other is barely patching one hole after the other when of course it is not busy to patch the hole of the previous patch.... My bf just called a couple of weeks telling me that what's up at MS and that the autoupdate has been downloading a couple of patches every day.... Sad very sad, with so much money and so much brain poiwer they should be shipping a lot more reliable products

Sorry I got carried away but 9 years under the fear of a constantly crashing OS can do nothing better for you... in 5 months I have restarted it once every two weeks mainly to install something and it has not crashed.... and counting...

[Powerbook G5]

I was *not* exagerating, go to the store and look at the specs to run Terminator 2 Extreme edition on your PC, it says you need a 3 GHz, 512 megs RAM, at least 128 megs VRAM, 1600x1200, etc...not an exageration but pure black and white system specs on the DVD requirements...

[jaedreth]

Give Apple a break! Please!

Has *anyone* *ever* migrated technologies from a well developed and long lived GUI operating system, and then decided to port all the core technologies over to a completely different Unix Based operating system, and simply slap it on top?

No! Apple is the first to even attempt such a thing.

Before OS X was released, Consumer Unix was an oxymoron.

Apple had to *recode* *everything* that had fit so well into os 9, but in a completely different environment. It's not like porting a program.

Keep in mind, the current rev should be considered semantically Mac OS X v 1.2.6, it was Marketing that decided to start with 10.0 instead of 1.0.

Please, 1.x Applications aren't always this well written, let alone Operating Systems, let alone Operating Systems having to be recreated from *scratch* and they had to figure out how to start porting this stuff over.

So come on, this could *not* have been done any other way.

You wanted Apple to wait until it was perfect? It's already more stable than Windows. Mac OS wasn't this well defined until much later. System 6 was nice. But System 7 invited complications, and 7.5 moreso, which really didn't get resolved well until 8.6.

This kind of stuff doesn't happen overnight, or in the span of two or three years.

So please, imagine trying to port the amiga GUI to a bsd ox, and retain all the wonderful features that Amigas have to offer, and then realize that Apple's OS X won't become a *mature* operating system by that stringent standard until it semantically reaches at least 2.0 (which per Apple Marketing would be Mac OS X 11.0?).

We are ending the OS9-OSX transition, but the OS X *is* still in transition itself. I doubt anyone else could have pulled this off faster. Especially not Microsoft.

Jaedreth

[wwworry]

Originally posted by ColdZero
Don't take this the wrong way but, is it that OS X is getting faster and faster or is it finally getting to the way it should have been written in 10.0?...

Well you could say Photoshop 3 should have been photoshop 4, The 1986 XJ6 should have been the 1991 XJ6. etc.

Really I think 10.0 should have been 10.2. 10.3 is extra :). I think Apple thought 10.0 should have been 10.1 and that's why 10.1 was a free upgrade.

[Dale Sorel]

Originally posted by wwworry
Well you could say Photoshop 3 should have been photoshop 4, The 1986 XJ6 should have been the 1991 XJ6. etc.

And the Model T should have been the GT 40 :rolleyes:

All I can say is some of the folks on the Internet have absolutely no clue :(

[ColdZero]

Different versions of photoshop require different processing requirements, newer versions do more, they require more power. Mettalugical discoveries, etc prevented the 1996 car from being the 1991. Basically there were limitations on the technology of the time. 10.3 will run on the same hardware that 10.0 ran on, and 10.3 will be a whole lot faster. There is no new "discovery" that makes 10.3 run faster than 10.0. 10.3 is simply written better. Assembly is Assembly and C is C, its how you use it. There is no reason why the speed of 10.3 could not have been in 10.0 But anyways, we're here at 10.3 now, so this is kinda a useless argument.

Anywho, 10.3 is very cool, I'm liking Expose a lot. It is true, it becomes second nature after using it for a while. I find myself moving my mouse to the upper right corner of the screen on my Jaguar computer and then I blink a few times and go "Oh wrong OS".

I think they could improve fast user switching a little tho. While it looks very cool, I don't like how it takes more space in the bar at the top of the screen. It fits your whole user name there. What I would have liked to see was a button that would bring up a pseudo login screen over the current desktop, kinda how it does if you have a password now. Then you could choose the user and switch from there. That would make my day. Or even have it as a option on the mighty blue apple menu.

[jaedreth]

Then submit that feedback to Apple! Please! :)

Jaedreth

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by ColdZero
Don't take this the wrong way but, is it that OS X is getting faster and faster or is it finally getting to the way it should have been written in 10.0? All these updates are nice and all, but this is the way that it should have been written in the first place. I'm not talking about adding features like Expose and stuff, I'm talking about responsiveness. Is it OS X getting faster because they are fixing the things that should have been fixed originally or is it that it is getting faster because they are adding new features? And is windows making your computer slower, or introducing new technologies and abilities that require faster processors and such? Luna is a new rendering engine for XP and has higher requirements than the ones found in 2k, ME, etc because it does more. Personally I think 10.0 should have been as responsive as 10.2. Apple controlled everything about the OS and hardware it would be running on, there wasn't an excuse to have to wait till 10.2 and 10.3 to get these speed improvements. It is impressive that XP can run on any random x86 hardware out there in a bajillion different combinations and run as well and as fast as it does. Just my $0.02. BTW I'm using Panther, Jaguar and XP Pro on my various computers.

It's a rule of OS's (except windows) that code is revised and optimized during revisions, which makes it run faster. This is nothing new. It's taken Apple... what, 5 years of tinkering to get OS X this good? So you're saying that they shouldn't have released OS X at all until now...

These things take time. Creating an OS is not an easy task, I'm surprised OS X Beta was as stable as it was...

pnw

[daveL]

Originally posted by paulwhannel
It's a rule of OS's (except windows) that code is revised and optimized during revisions, which makes it run faster. This is nothing new. It's taken Apple... what, 5 years of tinkering to get OS X this good? So you're saying that they shouldn't have released OS X at all until now...

These things take time. Creating an OS is not an easy task, I'm surprised OS X Beta was as stable as it was...

pnw
I agree, but your comment isn't limited to OSs, however it does require the developer to give a *****, which explains the situation with MS. As far as OS X getting to this point: It would have taken even longer if it had not been out in the real world being excercised, analyzed and otherwise pounded on.

[killmoms]

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
I was *not* exagerating, go to the store and look at the specs to run Terminator 2 Extreme edition on your PC, it says you need a 3 GHz, 512 megs RAM, at least 128 megs VRAM, 1600x1200, etc...not an exageration but pure black and white system specs on the DVD requirements... He's not exaggerating. An extra presentation of the movie is included with this DVD, I believe on a separate disc, but it could be the feature itself. It's a specially encoded WMP9 HD file. It's a test of Microsoft's codec to display High-Definition level footage (at least 720p instead of the 480p found on current DVDs). Also, remember that WMP9 is a variant of MPEG-4 encoding, which is much more efficient than the MPEG-2 standard used for normal DVDs.

Therefore, it's not so surprising that they could fit the entire movie, in HD, with surround sound. However, that high-res an MPEG-4 based file really DOES require high system specs. That's a LOT to decode.

--Matt

[Powerbook G5]

So for all of you Panther testers out there...how complete do you judge Panther to be right now as far as stability/performance/feature-wise? Is it over the halfway mark? Possibly close to final cadidate? Or do you feel it have a lot of work yet? Just curious...it's pretty cool to follow the developement of a new OS from first alpha up to GM and see how much it can change in a short amount of time.

[ColdZero]

Originally posted by paulwhannel
It's a rule of OS's (except windows) that code is revised and optimized during revisions, which makes it run faster. This is nothing new. It's taken Apple... what, 5 years of tinkering to get OS X this good? So you're saying that they shouldn't have released OS X at all until now...

These things take time. Creating an OS is not an easy task, I'm surprised OS X Beta was as stable as it was...

pnw

Yes....except for Windows because Microsoft can never do anything right. :rolleyes: Apple didn't write OS X from the ground up, Darwin and BSD had been through many many revisions before you get the OS that you had today or even at 10.0. Before even OS X Server 1.0. It had been in development for YEARS before it was released. You're telling me that in the labs, Aqua wasn't running as slowly as it was in the field? You've gotta be kidding me. Other bugs would have been found and fixed as it was installed on a more diverse hardware platform. Things such as Finder are the basic parts of OS X. I never said that they shouldn't have released OS X till now, I'm saying that the Finder speed, responsiveness in windows and such should have been part of the 10.0 release. Jaguar runs fine on a computer without QE, why couldn't this have been optimized when it was first written? It doesn't take a field test to see that it runs slow. Yes Apple has taken 5 years....5 years (as you say) to give a finder that is responsive enough for most people. I know creating an OS isn't an easy task, I've had to make a basic one in my Operating Systems class.

If your OS Can run at an acceptable rate on your current machines, what incentive would a developer have (one who also benefits from hardware sales) from making the OS as optimized as it can be for older hardware?

The kinds of OSes you speak of are ones mostly Open Source, where the goal of the project isn't to make it run faster because you want to make it optimized, but rather to get recognition in the open sourced community for finding an algorithm that works 5% faster than the previous one.

As for the stability of Panther, I've actully had 0 crashes since I installed. Some wierd things I did notice were that if I use VLC, and play a movie....no audio. I play the same movie in MPlayer and I get audio, but the video is choppy. If I use Jaguar to play it, its fine on both. Also it seems that if I choose my buddy list from the iChat menu on the toolbar, it brings up that registration screen for iChat when you enter your info. My info is entered, but I have to click through it to get the buddy list.

[vrapan]

Also it seems that if I choose my buddy list from the iChat menu on the toolbar, it brings up that registration screen for iChat when you enter your info. My info is entered, but I have to click through it to get the buddy list.

I had that problem on 7B21 but not on 7B28.

For me mplayer is not choppy. VLC is both choppy and has no sound though.

[metfoo]

WWDC's build for me ran great. 7b28 however tends to have several apps crashing. I noticed that if i copy several files from a firewire drive to my local HD (3+ GB's), finder will bomb out during the copy and only part of the transfer occurs.

Finder will also randmoly crash while working in other windows. It will recover itself and open a new window, even though I was using the finder windows.

My system is an iMac 600 with 512 MB. Anyone with similar experiences?

[wwworry]

Originally posted by ColdZero

Apple didn't write OS X from the ground up, Darwin and BSD had been through many many revisions before you get the OS that you had today or even at 10.0. Before even OS X Server 1.0. It had been in development for YEARS before it was released. You're telling me that in the labs, Aqua wasn't running as slowly as it was in the field? You've gotta be kidding me. Other bugs would have been found and fixed as it was installed on a more diverse hardware platform. Things such as Finder are the basic parts of OS X. I never said that they shouldn't have released OS X till now, I'm saying that the Finder speed, responsiveness in windows and such should have been part of the 10.0 release. Jaguar runs fine on a computer without QE, why couldn't this have been optimized when it was first written? It doesn't take a field test to see that it runs slow. Yes Apple has taken 5 years....5 years (as you say) to give a finder that is responsive enough for most people. I know creating an OS isn't an easy task, I've had to make a basic one in my Operating Systems class.



The best evidence that in 10.0 it was not possible to have the responsiveness of 10.2 is that 10.0 was not as responsive as 10.2 is. Of course 10.0 should have been faster, of course! But it was not possible given the resources and the situation they were in at that time.

There, now do you feel better? ;)

[quetranza]

Has anyone gotten Postfix to work under Panther yet? IMAP server? I couldn't get uw-imap to work right. And where does Panther keep users' mail?

[bdkennedy1]

Did 2 clean installs and iSync crashes SyncServer. Anyone else have this problem?

[wrldwzrd89]

Does anyone here know if Panther will have the Classic environment or not? The reason I am asking is because the PowerMac G5's don't have Mac OS 9 installed (and you can't install it since they can't boot Mac OS 9 either).

[edesignuk]

Originally posted by quetranza
And where does Panther keep users' mail?
~/Library/Mail I think.

[richard5mith]

Yes it has classic.

And this build needs a lot more work on it before it's done. Regular crashes and freakiness. And now an iSync that won't work because it says it has expired.

[philrobin]

New cool feature in iCal in panther,
as a reminder you can have a file to be opened, instead of the beep and message.

Think applescript.... and we eventually have got a nice cron like scheduler.

bad news... in 7b28 I could not get it to work... and still no link with birthdays in AddressBook

[henryblackman]

Originally posted by ColdZero
Don't take this the wrong way but, is it that OS X is getting faster and faster or is it finally getting to the way it should have been written in 10.0? All these updates are nice and all, but this is the way that it should have been written in the first place.

Perhaps you're right. I never found 10.0 to be unacceptably slow; however faster is always better isn't it.

The thing with X is that it's future proofed us to a huge extent. We get Expose, fast user switching, content-showing dragged windows (that sort of thing), pretty much for free because of Quartz. We get security, functionality, networking (+ network sharing) because of BSD, literally for free.

We also get a whole lot in X that is not part of the OS (but most people see as being the OS). Web browsing, eMail, iChat, Finder etc. Much of that comes because of Apple's support of standards and use of open source technologies.

What I was trying to say in my previous post, is that Apple is addressing the issues with X, whereas issues with Windows are not being addressed by Microsoft.

Let's take the window rendering engines, Windows hasn't changed since the start (although it has been improved on). Luna is the name of the "theme" not the rendering engine. Longhorn will apparently include Quartz-Extreme functionality and I'm sure that this will boost Windows. Quartz though is a completely amazing peice of technology that is not matched on any other OS. It brought slowness, but it also brought power. The slowness is being addressed and has in 10.1, 10.2 and now in 10.3.

Looking at Finder, yes things changed between classic and X, but despite what a lot of "usability" gurus say, many of these things are not detrimental to usability. The browser-like interface introduced in X can work well, it has in Windows for years. Panther is reintroducing spatial Finder capabilities which addresses all the issues, I doubt MS would address these types of issues. I've seen no evidence that they are even aware this is a problem; however Longhorn, from what I've seen, seems to be emphasising search as the primary interface, instead of hierarchy traversal. That will be interesting, and I guess we'll see how much better, or worse, that makes Windows Explorer.

All in all though, MS relies on greater computing power, whilst even though Apple now has this to the nth degree, it does not seem to be forgetting to optimise. Can MS say the same thing?

[AppleMatt]

henryblackman,
Sorry to smash the flow from your great post.

I have a problem, I upgraded (archive and install) to 7B28 over 7B21 and it changed my admin account to standard, now I can't do any admin tasks because I don't know the admin username or password.

That includes deleting files, copying files, using certain system preferences, startup disk...

...any tips anyone?

AppleMatt

[gordyt]

Originally posted by AppleMatt
henryblackman,
Sorry to smash the flow from your great post.

I have a problem, I upgraded (archive and install) to 7B28 over 7B21 and it changed my admin account to standard, now I can't do any admin tasks because I don't know the admin username or password.

That includes deleting files, copying files, using certain system preferences, startup disk...

...any tips anyone?

AppleMatt

Hi AppleMatt,

Easy fix:

Boot back on the 7b28 user install disk 1. There's a menu option that lets you reset passwords. (I forget the exact wording of it, but it's obvious). Select that menu option. Choose the "root" account. Give it a password.

Then restart nomally, start the user system preference. Click the unlock icon. For authorization use account "root" and the password that you assigned for it.

Then you can check the box to give your account admin privileges again.

--gordy

[daveL]

Originally posted by AppleMatt
henryblackman,
Sorry to smash the flow from your great post.

I have a problem, I upgraded (archive and install) to 7B28 over 7B21 and it changed my admin account to standard, now I can't do any admin tasks because I don't know the admin username or password.

That includes deleting files, copying files, using certain system preferences, startup disk...

...any tips anyone?

AppleMatt
Hi, AppleMatt. Did the archive save a file called local.nidump? It's normally saved in /var/backup every night. If you have the original backup from 7B21, you should be able to restore it (netinfo db) using the 'niload' command line utility. You'll have to do this from single user mode, which you get to by holding down CMD-s while booting. Let me know if you have the local.nidump file from the install archive. If you do, I'll try to wlak you through it. There's some other things you have to do to pull this off.

[fuzzy7slippers]

7B28 is saving all of my stuff as DMGs. When I take a jpg off of the internet and save it to my computer it has the jpg extension. It has the DMG icon though. When I try to open it it says that the file cant be mounted or something like that I forgot exactly. Whats up with this. Other than that 7B28 is running great.

[daveL]

Originally posted by fuzzy7slippers
7B28 is saving all of my stuff as DMGs. When I take a jpg off of the internet and save it to my computer it has the jpg extension. It has the DMG icon though. When I try to open it it says that the file cant be mounted or something like that I forgot exactly. Whats up with this. Other than that 7B28 is running great.
Hmmm. Just tried it. No problem. Sounds like a file typing issue (duh). What do you see when you do a "Get Info" and look at "Open With"? It should say "Preview (default) (2.1.0)". If not, change it and click "Change All ...".

HTH

[fuzzy7slippers]

Fantastic daveL. I should have figured that out by myself, but sometimes we all need some help. Thanks alot man.

[Schiffi]

Could someone check the gamepad support in Panther? Is it the same as Jag?

(Just grab a USB PC only gamepad from a roommate or buddy and see if it works)

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by fuzzy7slippers
7B28 is saving all of my stuff as DMGs. When I take a jpg off of the internet and save it to my computer it has the jpg extension. It has the DMG icon though. When I try to open it it says that the file cant be mounted or something like that I forgot exactly. Whats up with this. Other than that 7B28 is running great.

The icon is set by the program that is selected to open the file. So if it is showing a .dmg icon then that means you have Disk Copy set to open it. The extension only tells the system what the file is so it know what program to associate it with and therefore what icon to give it in this case it has the wrong association thusly the wrong icon.