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MacRumors
Aug 24, 2007, 11:38 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Engadget posts (http://www.engadget.com/2007/08/24/iphone-unlocked-atandt-loses-iphone-exclusivity-august-24-2007/) confirmation that iPhoneSimFree (http://www.iphonesimfree.com/) can provide a software application that will completely unlock the iPhone, allowing you to use other mobile network's SIM cards.
The six-man team has been working non-stop since launch day, and they're officially the first to break Apple's SIM locks on the iPhone. It's done. Seriously. They wouldn't tell us when and how they would release it to the public, but you can certainly bet that they'll try to make a buck on their solution (and rightly so).

Engadget posts screenshots (http://www.engadget.com/photos/iphone-unlocked/) and notes from the install. Some highlights:

- The unlock process took only a couple of minutes
- The General -> Network menu now has an EDGE network settings area where you can input your carrier's APN and username / password
- No Visual Voicemail. (but regular dial in voicemail works)
- The method claims to be restore and upgrade resistant

It appears iPhoneSIMFree (http://www.iphonesimfree.com/) will start selling this application next week.

SIM Unlocking the iPhone will allow users to use other GSM-based mobile networks with the iPhone. For U.S. customers, this limits you to simply switching to T-Mobile from AT&T, but international customers now have much more flexibility and could use the iPhone on any GSM network.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/08/24/fully-sim-unlocked-iphones/)



Maxiseller
Aug 24, 2007, 11:41 AM
It will be very interesting to see if Apple Legal puts a stop on this...and if so, on what legal grounds.

erockerboy
Aug 24, 2007, 11:41 AM
Funnily enough.... I just saw this story a moment ago:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/APWires/headlines/D8R7FOD00.html

Who's really "the first" ???

Interesting prospect, in either case....

jialuolu
Aug 24, 2007, 11:41 AM
Holy craaap, totally snagging one off eBay now. :eek:

InLikeALion
Aug 24, 2007, 11:42 AM
Wow. This appears to be much more desirable than the soldering method AppleInsider has been reporting. Who would want to crack open something that expensive and put a soldering iron to it?

bdj21ya
Aug 24, 2007, 11:45 AM
Pretty sweet! I'm excited to see what the program will cost. I don't think that visual voicemail and some service over EDGE is necessarily worth giving money to the evil AT&T (AT&T does a lot of evil things like extending your contract without telling you, and they have a terrible customer service dept. with no interest in helping people).

T-mobile is by far the most customer friendly national U.S. carrier.

Manatee
Aug 24, 2007, 11:47 AM
That's good news. I'll watch it for a while (through the next update) and if the unlock is unaffected then I'll probably do it. I already have a T-Mobile account, so I'd come out ahead paying the termination fee to AT&T and using the iPhone as my TMob phone.

And being able to use local SIMs with the iPhone when travelling will be great.

Thank you, iPhoneSIMFree. You deserve to make a few bucks off this. :)

kwood
Aug 24, 2007, 11:49 AM
This is awesome. Although I still can't justify spending $599 on a phone I wouldn't use. I barely use my cell phone now as t is.

Taylor C
Aug 24, 2007, 11:49 AM
From the article, it seems like a lot of the functionality required for the iPhone to work on other carriers such as EDGE settings and automatically routing voicemail functionality to a non-visual source (T-Mobile, for instance), has been there since the beginning.

cromestant
Aug 24, 2007, 11:49 AM
YES YES YESSSS!!!

I m hopping literally!!!! WHEEEE

sorry if i seem stupid but , you know what the changes are that apple gets the iphone to venezuela?

So this is the only way i can actually get it!

SuparShadow
Aug 24, 2007, 11:49 AM
I predict a lawsuit.

koobcamuk
Aug 24, 2007, 11:50 AM
YES YES YESSSS!!!

I m hopping literally!!!! WHEEEE

sorry if i seem stupid but , you know what the changes are that apple gets the iphone to venezuela?

So this is the only way i can actually get it!

Just don't use data on it... that would be soooooo expensive!!!!!

plumbingandtech
Aug 24, 2007, 11:50 AM
make a buck on their solution (and rightly so)

Why? For circumventing apple's intellectual property they deserve a buck?

But But But information wants to be free!! Free as in speech!!!

Why don't they "give" it to the open souce community for free?

/snark

:rolleyes:

I bet apple forces them to change their domain name too.

iansilv
Aug 24, 2007, 11:50 AM
I dont see Apple putting much effort in to killing this. Wy would they care? It is only a niche group of people that will unlock it, so why not sell more iphones? Also- wouldnt this be convenient way for them to get out of exclusivity with ATT?

xUKHCx
Aug 24, 2007, 11:54 AM
I predict a lawsuit.

I've been following the iPhoneDev team and from their pages it suggests that everything they are doing is legal.

I don't imagine it would be too long before they complete their hacking.

OrangeCuse44
Aug 24, 2007, 11:55 AM
well, being able to use T Mobile doesnt help me any. verizon owns me...

spazzcat
Aug 24, 2007, 11:55 AM
I dont see Apple putting much effort in to killing this. Wy would they care? It is only a niche group of people that will unlock it, so why not sell more iphones? Also- wouldnt this be convenient way for them to get out of exclusivity with ATT?

I seem them releasing must have new features next week which also break this :confused:

devilot
Aug 24, 2007, 11:55 AM
I dont see Apple putting much effort in to killing this. Wy would they care?Because Apple makes a cut of money from AT&T services, not just the physical iPhone.

Small White Car
Aug 24, 2007, 11:57 AM
I can see the appeal for people in other countries, but I don't think this matters much in the U.S.

I can give up visual voicemail just so I can use T-Mobile? Yee-Haw! :rolleyes:

JPark
Aug 24, 2007, 11:58 AM
T-mobile is by far the most customer friendly national U.S. carrier.

My friend recently switched to T-mobile from AT&T because she got poor reception where she lives. Her reception isn't any better and her phone bill went from about $80 to over $200. She called them and they allowed her to switch plans which brought it down to $120. Ouch.

That's just one customer, but it highlights the point that all the carriers have their problems. The only people I never hear complaining about their carrier are Verizon customers, but none of them seem to know that Verizon disables features on their phones (did that Bluetooth class action suit ever get resolved?) so I don't know if I really trust their judgment.

ATG
Aug 24, 2007, 11:59 AM
3rd party development and unlocking, looks like I'm getting an iPhone!

MrCrowbar
Aug 24, 2007, 12:01 PM
That's nice indeed. Yay for prepaid users! :D
Too bad I got a new phone a few weeks ago because the old 2002 cell phone was dying. Oh well, I'm not in a contract (bought the phone, putmy SIM in it) so I can get an iPhone anytime now.

Also I love the Terminal App in there. It's geeky but you can do a lot with that :)

JPark
Aug 24, 2007, 12:02 PM
I'm already a Cingular customer, but don't want a data plan. Any thoughts on if this would allow me to use the iPhone with my current plan and still use the Visual Voicemail?

Stella
Aug 24, 2007, 12:02 PM
The iPhone should have never be locked up in the first place.

Consumers pay full price for a phone.. and *still* be told what cell networks they can / can't use.

This application should be welcome. Consumer freedom.

jingbugle
Aug 24, 2007, 12:02 PM
Funnily enough.... I just saw this story a moment ago:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/APWires/headlines/D8R7FOD00.html

Who's really "the first" ???

Interesting prospect, in either case....

This claims to be only software based where as the link you posted uses both hardware and software. Software only solution is the more desirable soln.

mr_matalino
Aug 24, 2007, 12:03 PM
Now if they can just convert GSM into CDMA... :rolleyes:

galganog
Aug 24, 2007, 12:04 PM
It may not be killed by apple. But AT&T will shut this down. This is costing them customers as well as the exclusive rights they have to supplying the Iphone service.

The packet is already in the legal department getting looked over by the lawyers right now.

starflyer
Aug 24, 2007, 12:06 PM
The packet is already in the legal department getting looked over by the lawyers right now.

You don't think they predicted this happening from the get go? Apple and at&t already have a plan on how to handle this. ;)

pixlnet
Aug 24, 2007, 12:06 PM
It's pretty nice and I've been hoping for this...but I just asked myself this; what makes it any better? You will still have to pay for a plan on T-Mobile and I don't think their data plan comes cheap. You'll also probably have to sign up for a contract with them. I know it would be great for people on T-MObile cause now they could have iPhone. But...carriers are all pretty much the same. Data and text is expensive...**** so are minutes! It's not like T-Mobile has a 39.99 unlimited data and 500 minutes a month plan.

I'll do some homework and see how beneficial it is. I am definitely happy they broke this though. I think the only thing Apple will care about is that they don't get a cut from the contracts on T-Mobile. It's too bad iPhone wasn't compatible with all carriers.

fastbite
Aug 24, 2007, 12:08 PM
It's pretty nice and I've been hoping for this...but I just asked myself this; what makes it any better? You will still have to pay for a plan on T-Mobile and I don't think their data plan comes cheap. You'll also probably have to sign up for a contract with them. I know it would be great for people on T-MObile cause now they could have iPhone. But...carriers are all pretty much the same. Data and text is expensive...**** so are minutes! It's not like T-Mobile has a 39.99 unlimited data and 500 minutes a month plan.

I'll do some homework and see how beneficial it is. I am definitely happy they broke this though. I think the only thing Apple will care about is that they don't get a cut from the contracts on T-Mobile. It's too bad iPhone wasn't compatible with all carriers.

If you are not in the US, then this is great!

xenotaku
Aug 24, 2007, 12:09 PM
I suppose this is a stupid question, but is G3 a hardware or software thing? What I'm getting at is, if I can use another carrier that has a G3 network, will the current iPhones benefit from that?

Small White Car
Aug 24, 2007, 12:10 PM
I suppose this is a stupid question, but is G3 a hardware or software thing? What I'm getting at is, if I can use another carrier that has a G3 network, will the current iPhones benefit from that?

Hardware thing.

galganog
Aug 24, 2007, 12:11 PM
You don't think they predicted this happening from the get go? Apple and at&t already have a plan on how to handle this. ;)

Yeah, I agree. I wouldn't really care so much if they supplied this hack for free. But turning a profit on such a thing is pretty despicable. And especially since the article says it is well deserved.

I guess we should start paying hackers for Serial numbers they turn out too.

Whistleway
Aug 24, 2007, 12:13 PM
Awesome. I'll getting atleast a couple now. And I hope to send one to my sister outside US as well.

This is good stuff!!

All those who are supporting Apple and AT&T on this issue, chill it. You are the very name that spoils the game :)

Macula
Aug 24, 2007, 12:13 PM
Yes! No roaming charges! At last, Europe can flood with iPhones! At last, I can consider to buy an iPhone sometime in the (somewhat distant) future!

But let's pause and reflect: Apple will not tolerate this because they are earning percentages from the user's subscriptions, in addition to the revenues from the device itself.

elmnt61
Aug 24, 2007, 12:15 PM
Yea at first I got really excited... then I was like, "wait this doesn't affect me at all", then I remembered i'm studying abroad in spain in January for 5 months, then I said "**** what am I going to do?" Then I remembered that the iphone got unlocked.

So basically I have to unlock mine! ...I'm going to be all over next summer (spain, italy, china, greece).


But damn, am I basically screwed for the months I study abroad? ...aka I won't be able to use my AT&T service but i'll still have to pay for it? I'm still in the 14 day period, maybe i should do something about it.. :confused:

jsnuff1
Aug 24, 2007, 12:17 PM
It will be very interesting to see if Apple Legal puts a stop on this...and if so, on what legal grounds.

Apple nor AT$T have any legal ground regarding the unlock. Legaly Carriers are not required to unlock a phone, but once a phone is unlocked they can not do ANYTHING to any party involved. Of course all apple has to do is create a simple software patch to break the lock, which im sure they will do, but they certaintly cant go after anyone legaly.

I wouldnt be suprised if apple does nothing...more iphone sales for them.

OhEsTen
Aug 24, 2007, 12:17 PM
The only people I never hear complaining about their carrier are Verizon customers...

Then I'll chime in. When I had Verizon (4 years ago), it was the worst experience I have ever had in my life (up to that point) with a cell provider. I had a family plan and was wondering why my monthly bills were $200+ when 90% of my calls were to the phones on the plan (and I know what you are thinking: it's the other 10% - but it wasn't). I had a Verizon "customer service" rep tell me that they "pull" from your anytime minutes first - then when those are used up, they start taking from the mobile to mobile minutes! So if the majority of my calls were to the mobile phones on my plan during the "anytime minutes" - they counted those as anytime minutes not my m2m minutes. Verizon is pure evil. I hate them so much, that I started to have bad feelings about James Earl Jones by proxy (when he was the spokesman for Verizon).

But the unfortunate reality is - they are all the same. I never used T-Mobile or Spirint so can't speak for them, but the people I know that are with Verizon all say the same thing: "they're a terrible company, but you can't beat their coverage." What a sad state of affairs.

Whistleway
Aug 24, 2007, 12:17 PM
The iPhone should have never be locked up in the first place.

Consumers pay full price for a phone.. and *still* be told what cell networks they can / can't use.

This application should be welcome. Consumer freedom.

Loved it, the way you put it.

savar
Aug 24, 2007, 12:18 PM
My friend recently switched to T-mobile from AT&T because she got poor reception where she lives. Her reception isn't any better and her phone bill went from about $80 to over $200. She called them and they allowed her to switch plans which brought it down to $120. Ouch.

That's just one customer, but it highlights the point that all the carriers have their problems. The only people I never hear complaining about their carrier are Verizon customers, but none of them seem to know that Verizon disables features on their phones (did that Bluetooth class action suit ever get resolved?) so I don't know if I really trust their judgment.

I'm a verizon customer. I like it better than Cingular and Sprint (both of which I had for over a year), but you're right -- they are still evil. The customer service is slightly better and from what I hear (my mom works in the industry), their data network is the envy of other US carriers. But they still do all the shameless stuff that other companies do, too.

I can't wait for that "free" spectrum to get built out.

Skystar
Aug 24, 2007, 12:18 PM
It's pretty nice and I've been hoping for this...but I just asked myself this; what makes it any better? You will still have to pay for a plan on T-Mobile and I don't think their data plan comes cheap. You'll also probably have to sign up for a contract with them. I know it would be great for people on T-MObile cause now they could have iPhone. But...carriers are all pretty much the same. Data and text is expensive...**** so are minutes! It's not like T-Mobile has a 39.99 unlimited data and 500 minutes a month plan.

I'll do some homework and see how beneficial it is. I am definitely happy they broke this though. I think the only thing Apple will care about is that they don't get a cut from the contracts on T-Mobile. It's too bad iPhone wasn't compatible with all carriers.

When I bought the iPhone a few days after launch, I was in a T-Mobile Family plan, which I have had since 2002. I had bought a discounted T-Mobile dash last year so I re-did my contract with them. I decided to go with the Pre-paid iPhone, with the hopes of the iPhone being unlocked. I also did not want to get into another contract just for myself.

Now that it has been unlocked, I am definitely going to go back into my T-Mobile family plan, where I get unlimited mins to my wife, and unlim mobile to mobile with my whole fam who also is with tmobile. My T-Mobile sim has been sitting on my desk collecting dust. My family plan also includes unlimited text. All I have to add is the T-Mobile Total Internet which is $29, but that also includes their wifi hotspot service.

I just hope they can release this before apple/att shut it down, if they can shut it down to begin with.

Mydel
Aug 24, 2007, 12:18 PM
Nice!:D Now Im getting one. I've been waiting for that all along. And yes Im willing to pay for it. In my opinion person who did it deserve to cash on it. But maybe its just me....:o

JPark
Aug 24, 2007, 12:20 PM
But the unfortunate reality is - they are all the same. I never used T-Mobile or Spirint so can't speak for them, but the people I know that are with Verizon all say the same thing: "they're a terrible company, but you can't beat their coverage." What a sad state of affairs.

To misquote Kent Brockman, "I've said it before and I'll say it again, capitalism just doesn't work."

bigandy
Aug 24, 2007, 12:22 PM
*drools*

now that iPhone on Orange UK is calling me, and cooincides perfectly as I was about to upgrade my SPV M600 next week, as my paycheque's coming in.

I predict disaster for my finances, due to iPhone-ness. I may have to tell the girlfriend to hide my cards. :o

fanbrain
Aug 24, 2007, 12:22 PM
So no Sprint huh? Rats. :mad:

OhEsTen
Aug 24, 2007, 12:24 PM
Consumers pay full price for a phone.. and *still* be told what cell networks they can / can't use.

You're assuming it's full price. It's quite possible that if Apple had decided to sell the phone with no contract or service (open), that it would be in the ballpark of the Nokia E90.

To misquote Kent Brockman, "I've said it before and I'll say it again, capitalism just doesn't work."

:D that's it exactly!

homeboy
Aug 24, 2007, 12:26 PM
The iPhone should have never be locked up in the first place.

Consumers pay full price for a phone.. and *still* be told what cell networks they can / can't use.

This application should be welcome. Consumer freedom.

Word! Here in Sweden every single phone on the market can be bought unlocked. Further more we don't even pay when we receive calls and SMS, heck we can even receive calls and SMS when without any money on our pay-to-go cards. I lived in Orange County the first half of this year and the cell phone business in the US is the evil work of capitalism.


International iPhone sales on eBay are going to bloom now.

aslater18
Aug 24, 2007, 12:26 PM
For U.S. customers, this limits you to simply switching to T-Mobile from AT&T


Not entirely true, this opens up the phone for rural GSM customers as well, who have access to neither AT&T or T-Mobile.

TheChillPill
Aug 24, 2007, 12:28 PM
If Apple don't already have the European carriers signed up (as rumored), this is going to cause a major headache for them - would a carrier willingly sign up and give Apple some of their revenue, knowing that their advantage has taken a hit.

As suggested above, it really should have been offered sim-free in the first place though, it would put a stop to the bitching about providers for a start - and firmly place the onus on the carriers to provide the best plans for the phone.

Clix Pix
Aug 24, 2007, 12:29 PM
Saw this artlicle about a New Jersey teen unlocking the iPhone:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/08/24/financial/f081724D48.DTL&type=business

Macula
Aug 24, 2007, 12:38 PM
By the way, a question:

Do AT&T charges incur starting on the day of iPhone purchase or on the day of account activation, if such activation is performed? In other words, does the purchase of an iPhone necessitate the purchase of an AT&T monthly plan?

If the answer is no, then this could be an easy way for Apple to make "unlocking" financially pointless for virtually all customers (EDIT: Of course, in such a case they would also have to dramatically increase their early termination fee).

Thanks.

dr_lha
Aug 24, 2007, 12:42 PM
It may not be killed by apple. But AT&T will shut this down. This is costing them customers as well as the exclusive rights they have to supplying the Iphone service.
Where's the precedent to believe they will do this? People have been unlocking carrier locked GSM phones for years.

Personally I would just like my iPhone unlocked so I can pop a local SIM card in it when in Europe, to avoid ridiculous EDGE fees from AT&T. I'm still going to remain a AT&T customer in the USA however, as AT&T provide a better service and certainly better support for the iPhone than T-Mobile.

gkhaldi
Aug 24, 2007, 12:42 PM
Now if they can just convert GSM into CDMA... :rolleyes:

Or just rollout the higher quality GSM netork.... :rolleyes:

Yateball
Aug 24, 2007, 12:45 PM
Canadian iPhone's here we come!

Nicky G
Aug 24, 2007, 12:47 PM
For me, Visual Voicemail is absolutely one of the killer apps. on the iPhone -- to me, iPhone would not be nearly as enticing without it. I see this most useful for folks who travel internationally who might want to pop a prepaid GSM SIM card into the phone for better rates than AT&T's international roaming rates.

timon
Aug 24, 2007, 12:49 PM
The Feds have said that it's not illegal to write software that unlocks phones. Apple would have to get around that law before they could win their case.

As for me I coould care less. If I was to get a iPhone I'd have to switch from Verizon to another carrier anyway. I don't see why I would want to move to t-mobile over AT&T when I have to hack the phone to do it.

On the other hand if I could use pay-as-you-go while outside the US then it might be worth doing.

I predict a lawsuit.

Digital Skunk
Aug 24, 2007, 12:54 PM
Thank GOD!

Better service providers and cell phone insurance here we come! :D

galganog
Aug 24, 2007, 12:59 PM
There is a law called the Digital Millienium Copyright Act that was signed into law and it states that:


"`(2) No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public,
provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service,
device, component, or part thereof, that--

`(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of
circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access
to a work protected under this title;

`(B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other
than to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls
access to a work protected under this title; or

`(C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that
person with that person's knowledge for use in circumventing a
technological measure that effectively controls access to a work
protected under this title.

Technically since this is a software program designed to hack the Iphone it is in violation of this rule. So as i said this is definatly able to get shut down if the companies suing have enough money and legal know how to do so.

And you know that At$t does.

http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/hr2281_dmca_law_19981020_pl105-304.html

Full text of the law here

I am glad these group of people did what they did but they do not deserve money or compensation. If they offer this software for free then i would have no qualms with what they did but the way i see it what they are doing is breaking the hacker code and i hope they get burned

rjflyn
Aug 24, 2007, 01:00 PM
Refurb iPhone from the Apple store, plus a T-Mobile2Go SIM @ 0.10 a min for calls plus WiFi for net and email, plus its an iPod to boot. Starting to sound good to me. How far away is Christmas, seems like this may have been Apples master plan all a long. I wouldn't be surprised if Apple itself is not part of the "team" the broke the lock.

Rj

bdj21ya
Aug 24, 2007, 01:01 PM
For me, Visual Voicemail is absolutely one of the killer apps. on the iPhone -- to me, iPhone would not be nearly as enticing without it. I see this most useful for folks who travel internationally who might want to pop a prepaid GSM SIM card into the phone for better rates than AT&T's international roaming rates.

Visual Voicemail, great feature, but not necessarily worth giving money to a company I hate (AT&T). T-mobile was always really friendly, and their support reps were always so much more competent, in my dealings with the two companies.

bdj21ya
Aug 24, 2007, 01:04 PM
There is a law called the Digital Millienium Copyright Act that was signed into law

DMCA = EVIL

farmboy
Aug 24, 2007, 01:04 PM
If you don't like the Apple/at&t contract, don't buy the phone. No person or company has any ethical or legal obligation to make their product or services available to everybody for any purpose. You have a multitude of other options. THAT'S YOUR FREEDOM. As far as how *great* it is in Sweden that you get "free" stuff--somebody is paying for it, you just don't see who. It's like saying "my electric car doesn't pollute"--the pollution is just not in your back yard, but somebody is still polluting.

And what's really weird here is that most of you who are proclaiming how great of a development this hack is...are the same one's who would bitch endlessly in these forums if Apple released a phone without, for example, Visual Voice Mail, which you aren't going to get with this hack. "It's crippled!!!!!!! How could they do this??!!" Blah blah blah.

One of the basic tenets of patent and copyright law is that the holder of the rights must exercise them...in other words, if you don't actively go after the unlicensed use of your property, you can lose the legal right to do so later.

Apple and at&t will find a way to defend themselves.

question fear
Aug 24, 2007, 01:05 PM
I'm already a Cingular customer, but don't want a data plan. Any thoughts on if this would allow me to use the iPhone with my current plan and still use the Visual Voicemail?

You'll get data charges for visual voicemail, and from what i've read the iphone "talks" to ATT via internet at least once a day. Honestly, the phone is so heavily tied to EDGE that until a hack arrives that allows you to toggle EDGE service off entirely I wouldn't go near the phone without unlimited data. And overages on a small data plan can run you several times what the unlimited plan costs.

achbed
Aug 24, 2007, 01:06 PM
I'll bet it's a DCMA complaint. That *stupid* law has made touching anything illegal. And this is going to go even worse for those guys cause they're selling the info and software - they're going to be testing the commercial damages clauses of that law. Here's hoping they move to Russia so we can actually get the benefits of this.

irvingdizzle
Aug 24, 2007, 01:06 PM
Do you guys think maybe you could get the t-zones plan to work on it just like you could on the MDA? Just by adding the wap.voicestream.com and the proxy settings to it?

CameronT
Aug 24, 2007, 01:07 PM
There is a law called the Digital Millienium Copyright Act that was signed into law and it states that:


"`(2) No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public,
provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service,
device, component, or part thereof, that--

`(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of
circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access
to a work protected under this title;

`(B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other
than to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls
access to a work protected under this title; or

`(C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that
person with that person's knowledge for use in circumventing a
technological measure that effectively controls access to a work
protected under this title.

Technically since this is a software program designed to hack the Iphone it is in violation of this rule. So as i said this is definatly able to get shut down if the companies suing have enough money and legal know how to do so.

And you know that At$t does.

http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/hr2281_dmca_law_19981020_pl105-304.html

Full text of the law here

I am glad these group of people did what they did but they do not deserve money or compensation. If they offer this software for free then i would have no qualms with what they did but the way i see it what they are doing is breaking the hacker code and i hope they get burned

Cell phone unlocking is SPECIFICALLY excluded from the provisions of the DMCA.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20061124-8280.html

Bobthemonkey
Aug 24, 2007, 01:08 PM
There is a law called the Digital Millienium Copyright Act that was signed into law and it states that:


"`(2) No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public,
provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service,
device, component, or part thereof, that--

`(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of
circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access
to a work protected under this title;

`(B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other
than to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls
access to a work protected under this title; or

`(C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that
person with that person's knowledge for use in circumventing a
technological measure that effectively controls access to a work
protected under this title.

Technically since this is a software program designed to hack the Iphone it is in violation of this rule. So as i said this is definatly able to get shut down if the companies suing have enough money and legal know how to do so.

And you know that At$t does.

http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/hr2281_dmca_law_19981020_pl105-304.html

Full text of the law here

I am glad these group of people did what they did but they do not deserve money or compensation. If they offer this software for free then i would have no qualms with what they did but the way i see it what they are doing is breaking the hacker code and i hope they get burned


DMCA does not apply to cellphones. if you read the full text, as you suggest others do, you will see that it applies only in the context of performances. The section you quote was intended to prevent the circumvention of copy-protection technology and hence protect the publishers copyright.

In my opinion, the DCMA is an awful peice of law, but hey ho.

Macula
Aug 24, 2007, 01:12 PM
If you don't like the Apple/at&t contract, don't buy the phone. No person or company has any ethical or legal obligation to make their product or services available to everybody for any purpose. You have a multitude of other options. THAT'S YOUR FREEDOM. As far as how *great* it is in Sweden that you get "free" stuff--somebody is paying for it, you just don't see who. It's like saying "my electric car doesn't pollute"--the pollution is just not in your back yard, but somebody is still polluting.

And what's really weird here is that most of you who are proclaiming how great of a development this hack is...are the same one's who would bitch endlessly in these forums if Apple released a phone without, for example, Visual Voice Mail, which you aren't going to get with this hack. "It's crippled!!!!!!! How could they do this??!!" Blah blah blah.

One of the basic tenets of patent and copyright law is that the holder of the rights must exercise them...in other words, if you don't actively go after the unlicensed use of your property, you can lose the legal right to do so later.

Apple and at&t will find a way to defend themselves.

A mixture of ignorance, confusion and displaced anger.

galganog
Aug 24, 2007, 01:14 PM
Cell phone unlocking is SPECIFICALLY excluded from the provisions of the DMCA.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20061124-8280.html

Ah i see i was looking at the older version of the law. This is the one that was amended in 2006. I was looking at the 2003 version.

Well then i guess something will get filed but who knows how it will work. My only real problem is they are asking for money for this application. I guess the pirates will just have to seed it in limewire and torrent it.

Drink up me hearties yo ho.

yg17
Aug 24, 2007, 01:15 PM
It will be very interesting to see if Apple Legal puts a stop on this...and if so, on what legal grounds.

They can't. It is 100% legal to unlock a cell phone in the US. The manufacturer or carrier doesn't have to help you, but if you figure out a way, you have not broken any laws or done anything wrong.

Fwink!
Aug 24, 2007, 01:16 PM
Countdown to Apple & AT&T requiring you sign a contract and register it at the store…

Honestly, I think this whole hacking the iphone to add features or unlock it is really very childish. Like spending $600 to have the equivalent features of a $300 phone just because it's an Apple product.

You're hardly beating the system, when you still have to fork out a small fortune to play.

You'll also feel pretty stupid when your hacked phones arrive at their European destinations - right about the same time Apple announces availability over there.

JGowan
Aug 24, 2007, 01:21 PM
Although I still can't justify spending $599 on a phone I wouldn't use. I barely use my cell phone now as t is.Perhaps why you barely use your current cell phone is BECAUSE it can't do near what the iPhone can. I think that's the point of the device. It's a phone AND it does a lot of other stuff and does it well.

Do I have one? No. Why?

I can't justify spending $599 on a phone because I work from home. My graphic design keeps me in front of computer all day with complete access to my Email/Internet/Music on a 23" HD Cinema Display. The iPhone's screen just can't compete with that.

I'm holding out for the next iPod. I would spend $599 on that if it was pimped out enough -- the touchscreen, huge HD, Wifi capabilities, etc. -- can't wait.

Macula
Aug 24, 2007, 01:21 PM
You'll also feel pretty stupid when your hacked phones arrive at their European destinations - right about the same time Apple announces availability over there.

Not quite, because most European carriers, if not all, impose roaming charges once the user crosses national borders, e.g. from Greece to Italy. With an unlocked iPhone, you will be able to simply slip in a Italian SIM card for those 5 days you will be there, and thus avoid roaming charges.

Rocketman
Aug 24, 2007, 01:22 PM
You don't think they predicted this happening from the get go? Apple and at&t already have a plan on how to handle this. ;)

They are announcing European service next month.

Most people want a "blessed and supported" device and service and that is also on their side.

This news is of interest to hobbiests and bleeding edgers, and it is good news.

Rocketman

Consultant
Aug 24, 2007, 01:23 PM
Where's the precedent to believe they will do this? People have been unlocking carrier locked GSM phones for years.

Personally I would just like my iPhone unlocked so I can pop a local SIM card in it when in Europe, to avoid ridiculous EDGE fees from AT&T. I'm still going to remain a AT&T customer in the USA however, as AT&T provide a better service and certainly better support for the iPhone than T-Mobile.

Why is Edge fees ridiculous? No other carries provides unlimited data access for a smart phone for under $40/month. $20/month is a pretty good deal in comparison.

Marx55
Aug 24, 2007, 01:23 PM
Remarkable!!!

Is this a Mac application?
Is it legal in the States?

RealMcCoy
Aug 24, 2007, 01:27 PM
... bet that they'll try to make a buck on their solution (and rightly so).

I donīt see anything right about that !

djkirsten
Aug 24, 2007, 01:27 PM
You'll get data charges for visual voicemail, and from what i've read the iphone "talks" to ATT via internet at least once a day. Honestly, the phone is so heavily tied to EDGE that until a hack arrives that allows you to toggle EDGE service off entirely I wouldn't go near the phone without unlimited data. And overages on a small data plan can run you several times what the unlimited plan costs.

airplane mode. What a good hack.

w0ngbr4d
Aug 24, 2007, 01:27 PM
Countdown to Apple & AT&T requiring you sign a contract and register it at the store…

Either that or make you sign something that requires activation in XX number of days or they charge you the ETF. Who knows how they will handle pre-paid customers.

AT&T would be very stupid not to anticipate the full unlocking of the iPhone. They probably have several contingency plans in place for this specific situation. This combined with the fake activation will make AT&T put these plans into action.

If AT&T didn't think this would happen, some upper management needs to be fired.

epiphany
Aug 24, 2007, 01:30 PM
I don't understand the true advantage of unlocking the phone. If you use it on the T-mobile network, aren't you going to be bitch-slapped by data charges if you use the internet (not using wi-fi)? All those people complaining about 50-page ATT phone bills underscores the amount of data being bandied about on the network. What's the incentive to bolt?

yg17
Aug 24, 2007, 01:30 PM
You don't think they predicted this happening from the get go? Apple and at&t already have a plan on how to handle this. ;)
A plan for what? Suing someone for doing something that is 100% legal and not a violation of the DMCA or any other law?


Why is Edge fees ridiculous? No other carries provides unlimited data access for a smart phone for under $40/month. $20/month is a pretty good deal in comparison.
I also pay 20 bucks a month on T-Mobile. IIRC, Sprint is around 30 bucks (and 3G to boot)

n00basaur
Aug 24, 2007, 01:32 PM
airplane mode. What a good hack.

Well, you're not gonna do much talking with that...

RealMcCoy
Aug 24, 2007, 01:32 PM
....they are doing is breaking the hacker code and i hope they get burned

Yep ... true that .... so letīs get the iFire out ;o)

Taylor C
Aug 24, 2007, 01:33 PM
Agreed. $20 a month for unlimited data is really good.

yg17
Aug 24, 2007, 01:34 PM
I don't understand the true advantage of unlocking the phone. If you use it on the T-mobile network, aren't you going to be bitch-slapped by data charges if you use the internet (not using wi-fi)? All those people complaining about 50-page ATT phone bills underscores the amount of data being bandied about on the network. What's the incentive to bolt?


nope, thats why tou get an unlimited data plan

Skystar
Aug 24, 2007, 01:34 PM
I don't understand the true advantage of unlocking the phone. If you use it on the T-mobile network, aren't you going to be bitch-slapped by data charges if you use the internet (not using wi-fi)? All those people complaining about 50-page ATT phone bills underscores the amount of data being bandied about on the network. What's the incentive to bolt?


T-Mobile has unlimited internet as well also. There is a way to get it at $19.99 unlimited, but the official price is $29 for unlimited, which includes the wifi hotspot access.

yg17
Aug 24, 2007, 01:35 PM
There is a law called the Digital Millienium Copyright Act that was signed into law and it states that:


"`(2) No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public,
provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service,
device, component, or part thereof, that--

`(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of
circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access
to a work protected under this title;

`(B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other
than to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls
access to a work protected under this title; or

`(C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that
person with that person's knowledge for use in circumventing a
technological measure that effectively controls access to a work
protected under this title.

Technically since this is a software program designed to hack the Iphone it is in violation of this rule. So as i said this is definatly able to get shut down if the companies suing have enough money and legal know how to do so.

And you know that At$t does.

http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/hr2281_dmca_law_19981020_pl105-304.html

Full text of the law here

I am glad these group of people did what they did but they do not deserve money or compensation. If they offer this software for free then i would have no qualms with what they did but the way i see it what they are doing is breaking the hacker code and i hope they get burned


Umm.....except this isn't a violation of the DMCA.

NomadicTy
Aug 24, 2007, 01:38 PM
Countdown to Apple & AT&T requiring you sign a contract and register it at the store…

Honestly, I think this whole hacking the iphone to add features or unlock it is really very childish. Like spending $600 to have the equivalent features of a $300 phone just because it's an Apple product.

You're hardly beating the system, when you still have to fork out a small fortune to play.

You'll also feel pretty stupid when your hacked phones arrive at their European destinations - right about the same time Apple announces availability over there.

As few have said before, some people travel to other countries, and they'd rather have local SIM's. When I travel, I stay weeks at a time. When I make a friends in say, Brasil, I'd like to give them my local #, instead of making them fork out the $$$$$ just to tell me which Posto they are hanging out at.

farmboy
Aug 24, 2007, 01:39 PM
A mixture of ignorance, confusion and displaced anger.

Read a book on economics...there's no such thing as free.
Read a book on power generation...even solar panels are made with polluting technology.
Read a book on patent law...my comments are general but correct.

I'd really have to care first in order to be angry.

gkarris
Aug 24, 2007, 01:40 PM
So does that mean you have to activate the phone with AT&T to unlock it?

MacCurry
Aug 24, 2007, 01:44 PM
There are two ways to stop this, but it must be done by Apple. One is to have Apple put out a patch via iTunes when someone synchronizes music to their iPhone and another is a patch to the iPhone itself. Apple may not do this on their own, but may be forced by AT&T to do so. When you register your iPhone, you must enter your location and based on this your iPhone would then be locked to the carrier for which Apple has an agreement with.

Nothing would please me more than to see unlocked iPhones and I'll be the first in line to get mine if this free software application works out.


Farmboy,

See how mobile phones are being used around the world. US laws are NOT binding on those outside of the US and please leave your American arrogance at the door. Mobile phones and mobile phone technology is not based on US dominance.

Skystar
Aug 24, 2007, 01:44 PM
So does that mean you have to activate the phone with AT&T to unlock it?

There are other ways to activate the phone ;)

pixlnet
Aug 24, 2007, 01:45 PM
Either way...you're still going to pay an arm and a leg to make phone calls and use the internet on ANY provider.

The holy grail is phone.app having the ability to use Wifi to place calls. Until then....we're all going to be paying ~$60/month. Skype.app would be nice as well.

I can't wait until the day we're paying 39.95 per month for unlimited access to the tower :) Free text, unlimited calls, and unlimited internet all for 39.95. Your phone, however would be unsubsidized. No contracts.

NomadicTy
Aug 24, 2007, 01:47 PM
So does that mean you have to activate the phone with AT&T to unlock it?

If I can just go to an apple store, buy the phone, buy the unlock software, I'd go for it. One of the main reasons I've been holding of from buying an iPhone is I'm about to buy a house. I'm a happy t-mobile customer, and I don't want to get an inquiry on my credit, get my mortgage jacked up, all because of a phone...

So, same question as above:

I can? ... Buy an iPhone from Apple store, buy unlock software, then use my current t-mobile SIM, without having to activate the phone with ATT first?

crees!
Aug 24, 2007, 01:48 PM
For me, Visual Voicemail is absolutely one of the killer apps. on the iPhone -- to me, iPhone would not be nearly as enticing without it.

I agree whole-heartedly. I'm on Verizon at the moment. A rep called the other day giving me a schpeal about upgrading my phone and extending my contract. I asked if they had the iPhone. The reply was no they do not and I said then I don't need to upgrade my phone. :D

:apple: rocks

yg17
Aug 24, 2007, 01:48 PM
There are two ways to stop this, but it must be done by Apple. One is to have Apple put out a patch via iTunes when someone synchronizes music to their iPhone and another is a patch to the iPhone itself. Apple may not do this on their own, but may be forced by AT&T to do so. When you register your iPhone, you must enter your location and based on this your iPhone would then be locked to the carrier for which Apple has an agreement with.

Nothing would please me more than to see unlocked iPhones and I'll be the first in line to get mine if this free software application works out.

As been stated, the law prevents them from doing that. Legally, they can't stop you. Putting out a patch would be stopping you, and thus, illegal. If Apple or AT&T pulls that sort of crap, I hope someone sues them over it and gets them to stop.

Analog Kid
Aug 24, 2007, 01:48 PM
The irony in my case is that Apple and AT&T may get my business because of this. I'm not a fan of AT&T, but I don't mind using them as the "legitimate" partner on the iPhone. Visual voicemail alone justifies it. But I wouldn't buy an iPhone if I couldn't travel with it (especially after reading the forum post here about the user who took their phone to Ireland or wherever and came home to a $3000 bill), and if this works then I can.
From the article, it seems like a lot of the functionality required for the iPhone to work on other carriers such as EDGE settings and automatically routing voicemail functionality to a non-visual source (T-Mobile, for instance), has been there since the beginning.
Does seem curious, doesn't it? I wonder if those features got added to support Europe. Does the house of cards fall down if these features are removed?
You don't think they predicted this happening from the get go? Apple and at&t already have a plan on how to handle this. ;)
Almost looks like Apple started planning for it with 1.0.1...

filmgirl
Aug 24, 2007, 01:50 PM
From reading these pages, I'm guessing that most of you guys aren't that familiar/aware of how rampant unlocking tools are in the cellular industry. I knew this would happen - I'm kind of surprised it took this long.

Just a guess, but more than likely running the patch will require connecting the iPhone to a PC or Mac (and these programs are usually written for Windows) and the program will access the internal BIOS or other hardwired code to unlock the phone. By law, all GSM phones in the US/Europe HAVE to have an unlock option. The carriers are not required to unlock for you (though if you ask them to unlock the phone, they are supposed to do it -- AT&T usually gets away with either charging you or forcing you to wait 2 years to do it, T-Mobile will do it for free), but they cannot do anything about people who use unlocked phones.

I've had unlocking software/cables for my Sony-Ericson phone, one of my old Nokia phones (though those had codes you could enter in manually - no cable/software required) and my current Razr. I go to Europe once a year and like being able to take a phone with me. Plus, it really increases the re-sale value of a phone if it is unlocked.

Look for this to be expensive. Most of the unlocking programs or services for certain types of Motorola phones are $50 and up. I would imagine this will be no different.

Consumers aren't the people who will buy this - at least, not the main people. People that make boatloads of money selling unlocked phones at their own cellular shops or on eBay (very common) will gladly pay enmasse to be able to unlock a phone they can buy for $600 and then sell for $800. To me, that is the biggest reason AT&T/Apple should have re-thought the exclusivity thing (or at least the term of the agreement - exclusivity contracts are common, but they usually aren't as long-lasting as this AT&T deal - Motorola usually does no more than 6 months. Hence, getting a Razr on most GSM networks before Fall 2005 usually required buying an unlocked phone off the net or overseas - and at a premium) - because lots of people will profit off of this. Had an unlocked/unbranded version been available to independent dealers (like Motorola did with the Razr and most other phone companies do) for say, $800 - you wouldn't lose as much potential business because a) the resale price wouldn't be able to have as much mark-up b) The artificial demand created by the exclusivity thing would not exist, thus, customers wouldn't be willing to pay $$$$ for an unlocked phone.

quigleybc
Aug 24, 2007, 01:51 PM
This is cool

one step closer to me using an iPhone where I live.

problem is, in Canada, the Data rates are still so nutty that using the e-mail, web browser (non wi fi i guess) and other features would jack my phone bill into the stratosphere....

but it's progress for sure....

lord patton
Aug 24, 2007, 01:51 PM
I can't wait until the day we're paying 39.95 per month for unlimited access to the tower :) Free text, unlimited calls, and unlimited internet all for 39.95. Your phone, however would be unsubsidized. No contracts.

That sounds good. Can we get rid of the federal, state, and local taxes and fees tariffs and service surcharges, too?

Black Belt
Aug 24, 2007, 01:53 PM
There is a law called the Digital Millienium Copyright Act that was signed into law and it states that:


"`(2) No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public,
provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service,
device, component, or part thereof, that--

`(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of
circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access
to a work protected under this title;

`(B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other
than to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls
access to a work protected under this title; or

`(C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that
person with that person's knowledge for use in circumventing a
technological measure that effectively controls access to a work
protected under this title.

Technically since this is a software program designed to hack the Iphone it is in violation of this rule. So as i said this is definatly able to get shut down if the companies suing have enough money and legal know how to do so.

And you know that At$t does.

http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/hr2281_dmca_law_19981020_pl105-304.html

Full text of the law here

I am glad these group of people did what they did but they do not deserve money or compensation. If they offer this software for free then i would have no qualms with what they did but the way i see it what they are doing is breaking the hacker code and i hope they get burned

Not. This has nothing to do with locking phones. The ability to unlock phones is LEGAL and has been proven in court buddy. As far as the DMCA, it is criminal, a complete whoring for the MPAA who bought this and wrote it, and a contravention of our rights under the Copyright Act. It should be revoked and those who passed it should be investigated.

JPark
Aug 24, 2007, 01:53 PM
You'll get data charges for visual voicemail, and from what i've read the iphone "talks" to ATT via internet at least once a day. Honestly, the phone is so heavily tied to EDGE that until a hack arrives that allows you to toggle EDGE service off entirely I wouldn't go near the phone without unlimited data. And overages on a small data plan can run you several times what the unlimited plan costs.

Yipes. :eek: I hadn't realized you couldn't shut off access to EDGE on it. Thanks for the heads up.

CameronT
Aug 24, 2007, 01:54 PM
As been stated, the law prevents them from doing that. Legally, they can't stop you. Putting out a patch would be stopping you, and thus, illegal. If Apple or AT&T pulls that sort of crap, I hope someone sues them over it and gets them to stop.

Incorrect.

Basically - The wording of the DMCA could be interpreted as saying that it is illegal to bypass carrier locks. The Library of Congress came out with an exemption saying that this was specifically not a violation of the DCMA. Nothing says that the carrier has to allow you to unlock your phone - just that they can't sue you for doing so under the DMCA.

Nothing in the exemption prevents the carrier or manufacturer from upgrading the firmware to close this hole. Now - the legal question would be whether they could put out a firmware update to re-lock a phone that had already been unlocked - I'm not a lawyer so I won't comment on that.

However - there is nothing to stop them from closing this particular method down with a firmware update.

bdj21ya
Aug 24, 2007, 01:55 PM
I donīt see anything right about that !

(making reference to the Engadget article's statement that it was fair for the software's writers to seek compensation from those who wanted to make use of the unlocking app).

I can certainly understand why someone would post this, there are a lot of people with views I don't understand. What I don't really get is why the few who've posted this view haven't done anything to elaborate on why they feel this way. Are you a communist? Do you have some religous view against paying for software? Do you think it's just wrong for people to get paid for creating a service that others want?

When you're going to post something that flies in the face of the way the world generally works (you pay in some fashion to obtain things you want, or conversely, you are paid for producing something others want), it just adds a lot more to the conversation if you explain why.

galganog
Aug 24, 2007, 02:04 PM
(making reference to the Engadget article's statement that it was fair for the software's writers to seek compensation from those who wanted to make use of the unlocking app).

I can certainly understand why someone would post this, there are a lot of people with views I don't understand. What I don't really get is why the few who've posted this view haven't done anything to elaborate on why they feel this way. Are you a communist? Do you have some religous view against paying for software? Do you think it's just wrong for people to get paid for creating a service that others want?

When you're going to post something that flies in the face of the way the world generally works (you pay in some fashion to obtain things you want, or conversely, you are paid for producing something others want), it just adds a lot more to the conversation if you explain why.

This is a hack and by all definitions hacks should always be free.

If Apple made phone and said hey if well you just bought this 599 dollars of equippment and to use it with this network is free but if you want to use it with other networks pay us 50 dollars and we can unlock if for you most people would be up in arms over it.

This is like surfer serialz. Should we pay them for the serial numbers they post unlocking shareware for others to use.

They shouldn't make a product that skirts the legality of a contract for personel profit.

P.S.

Communism has nothing to do with it. And this has nothing to do with throwing anything back in the face of anyone. If you were a hacker you would understand why they do what they do and for what reasons. Profit is always usually never in most of their minds.

Twinkie
Aug 24, 2007, 02:04 PM
Not. This has nothing to do with locking phones. The ability to unlock phones is LEGAL and has been proven in court buddy.I'd love for you to cite the case law on that.

There's a ton of misinformation that's being passed around about the legality of unlocking cell phones in the United States.

Unlocking a cell phone is not inherently illegal. However, reverse-engineering encryption or copy protection on a cell phone is most assuredly a violation of the DMCA. Thus, if the software has to break the copy protection or encryption of or on the embedded OS (be it OS X, Symbian, PalmOS, Windows Mobile, etc.) to unlock he phone, it is a violation. They are two distinct acts under the law.

This is the same reason that commercial DVD copying software isn't available in stores. (Copying a DVD for personal use is legal, breaking CSS to do it is not.)

Stella
Aug 24, 2007, 02:05 PM
Apple didn't let AT&T subsidize the iPhone, so we are assuming it is full price.

However, Apple could have knocked a few dollars of the price of the phone.. but given the analysis of components v price of the phone - that makes it unlikely.


You're assuming it's full price.
:D that's it exactly!

Stella
Aug 24, 2007, 02:07 PM
We should be free to criticize Apple and its policy - as well as give praise.


If you don't like the Apple/at&t contract, don't buy the phone. .

filmgirl
Aug 24, 2007, 02:08 PM
That sounds good. Can we get rid of the federal, state, and local taxes and fees tariffs and service surcharges, too?

Yeah, the existence of the FCC kind of prevents that.

And to add to what others have said - the US is not dominant or even close to dominant when it comes to mobile technology. Europe/Japan (and Japan uses a different system from GSM - they use DCDMA) have outpaced us for years and years and years. Why? From an infrastructure standpoint, it is harder to run phone lines in small European countries that have lots and lots of people per square mile. Unlike the US where you have tons of space to spread the copper, satellites and towers are the only way to do telephony on a large scale in Europe/Japan. Plus, the fact that landine phone companies don't have dominance has allowed cellular technology/standards to evolve and improve faster than in the US, where cellular advancement was deeply hammered by FCC rules/regulations because of lobbying pressure by the Baby Bells and other wired telephony companies. Of course, now that the Baby Bells have pretty much become two companies, AT&T and Verizon - and both are also dominant cellular providers, you don't see resistance - but the time spent resisting the cellular move put us years behind on an infrastructure level. The very fact that Sprint and Verizon are still using CDMA is asinine, both technologically and logistically (it's the largest standard worldwide) standpoint, but it is just too costly for them to convert their networks. AT&T/Cingular did that, but they were going from TDMA to GSM, which is based on TDMA, so it was much, much easier to convert the network -- not to mention all the money Sprint has wasted on 3G.

So, that was a little off topic - but in short, the US is far from being a leader or innovator in cellular technology.

starflyer
Aug 24, 2007, 02:08 PM
A plan for what? Suing someone for doing something that is 100% legal and not a violation of the DMCA or any other law?

Did I say they were going to sue them? Im sure a little software update with a tempting new feature will take care of this.

princealfie
Aug 24, 2007, 02:09 PM
THE DMCA be abolished please.

OhEsTen
Aug 24, 2007, 02:12 PM
We should be free to criticize Apple and its policy - as well as give praise.

I agree that "freedom of criticism" is important - but to criticize for the sake of criticizing is just plain stupid. Some people think that to be truly objective requires that they find fault with everything and ultimately they end up very unhappy people.

Virgil-TB2
Aug 24, 2007, 02:14 PM
As much as I like this idea, (I live in Canada so this is the only way I will ever get the iPhone), there sure are a lot of rabid uninformed statements being passed around about this topic today.

Those that are saying that it's perfectly legal to unlock a phone are absolutely right. The US is one of the few countries in the world that have *tried* to outlaw this practice, but current wisdom is that if a phone company took anyone to court over this they would certainly lose.

Those that are getting so incredibly excited of the prospects of this however are living in a dream world IMO. This is really no big deal and after the initial raping of the customers who line up for unlocking, I would suspect it will all settle down to a minimal part of the iPhone market. There are just far too many uncertainties here.

For starters, despite what the unlockers say, they could never guarantee that future updates won't interfere at least in part with this solution. Secondly, as many have pointed out, this could be a more expensive solution that just going with EDGE and AT&T. The service providers can tell what kind of phone you are accessing the network with, and if T-Mobile or anyone else starts to see iPhone users on the network, they can charge you accordingly. They will either charge you through the nose for data, or if they think they won't be sued, they might eventually create iPhone support plans that compete in price with AT&T. Then a price war ensues and AT&T costs goes down anyway. The normal users will end up paying the same as the hackers.

Apple is also purported to be releasing a cheaper iPhone within weeks as well as European iPhones for those in Europe anyway. So again the number of people that will truly need this service will be smaller and smaller as time goes by. Right now, the kind of person that is so desperately cheap as to want to do this and so infatuated with gizmos as to need to have an iPhone (that they really can't afford), is really the only core market here at the beginning.

Hillbillies will be buying cheap, possibly half broken iPhones on eBay, trying to use prepaid cell cards in them and running into all kinds of technical difficulties and huge data bills due to the confusion and their own incompetence. People this desperate always run into problems this way, and usually are too focussed on filling up the cart at WalMart or munching that fourth burger in the drive-through to realise that they are going to get a huge bill at the end of the month for all that browsing n the iPhone.

So what I see is rapid, rabid, drooling acceptance of this company's offering but followed fairly quickly with a lot of unhappy people who will wonder why they bothered to do this at all. A few exceptionally smart types will carefully reap some nice benefits, but in a year or two there will be so many iPhones supplied by so many different suppliers and carried by so many different carriers even in the US, that no one will care that you can unlock the iPhone.

goosnarrggh
Aug 24, 2007, 02:15 PM
Unlocking a cell phone is not inherently illegal. However, reverse-engineering encryption or copy protection on a cell phone is most assuredly a violation of the DMCA.
Oh really?

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/WIPO_Copyright_and_Performances_and_Phonograms_Treaties_Implementation_Act_of_1998

“(f) Reverse Engineering.—(1) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program may circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and that have not previously been readily available to the person engaging in the circumvention, to the extent any such acts of identification and analysis do not constitute infringement under this title.

“(2) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsections (a)(2) and (b), a person may develop and employ technological means to circumvent a technological measure, or to circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure, in order to enable the identification and analysis under paragraph (1), or for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, if such means are necessary to achieve such interoperability, to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title.

“(3) The information acquired through the acts permitted under paragraph (1), and the means permitted under paragraph (2), may be made available to others if the person referred to in paragraph (1) or (2), as the case may be, provides such information or means solely for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title or violate applicable law other than this section.

“(4) For purposes of this subsection, the term ‘interoperability’ means the ability of computer programs to exchange information, and of such programs mutually to use the information which has been exchanged.

Nutshell:
Reverse-engineering software encryption or copy protection is permitted under the DMCA, under certain circumstances.


But that provision doesn't even come into play in this case anyway. The LoC has permission under section 103 paragraph 1201 subparagraph (C) to exepmt certain activities from being a violation under the DMCA. Currently, modifying cell phones for the purpose of network interoperability is specifically permitted.

TheChillPill
Aug 24, 2007, 02:15 PM
...until a hack arrives that allows you to toggle EDGE service off entirely I wouldn't go near the phone without unlimited data.

Presumably, with this hack you could simply remove the edge settings to prevent racking up the charges - invalid settings = no connection.

Not perfect, but assuming you don't need to run through a million menus to get there, it would be a decent solution before anything better comes along.

Stewie
Aug 24, 2007, 02:22 PM
I'm already a Cingular customer, but don't want a data plan. Any thoughts on if this would allow me to use the iPhone with my current plan and still use the Visual Voicemail?

Nope since the Visual Voicemail needs a EDGE (Data) connection to function. So it might work, but you would probably end up getting billed for data use.

Stewie
Aug 24, 2007, 02:30 PM
I can't wait until the day we're paying 39.95 per month for unlimited access to the tower :) Free text, unlimited calls, and unlimited internet all for 39.95. Your phone, however would be unsubsidized. No contracts.

Dude, not sure what you have been smoking, but please feel free to pass it around.

macintel4me
Aug 24, 2007, 02:33 PM
I've been following the iPhoneDev team and from their pages it suggests that everything they are doing is legal.

I don't imagine it would be too long before they complete their hacking.
It seems like a small team that did this and are going to try to make a buck. Let's be clear here. Apple Legal, AT&T Legal, Apple Customer Service, AT&T Customer Service waging war with against this six person team (or whatever it is) is a death nail.

Even the iPhone hacking is fully legal, Apple could tie up the company with lots of frivelous lawsuits that would bankrupt them. This doesn't include voiding the warranty and other non-lawsuit actions.

I can't see this being doing very well.....unfortunately.

daze
Aug 24, 2007, 02:34 PM
Canadian iPhone's here we come!

Finally I can use my iPhone in places other than near the US border!

RealMcCoy
Aug 24, 2007, 02:39 PM
(making reference to the Engadget article's statement that it was fair for the software's writers to seek compensation from those who wanted to make use of the unlocking app).

I can certainly understand why someone would post this, there are a lot of people with views I don't understand. What I don't really get is why the few who've posted this view haven't done anything to elaborate on why they feel this way. Are you a communist? Do you have some religous view against paying for software? Do you think it's just wrong for people to get paid for creating a service that others want?

When you're going to post something that flies in the face of the way the world generally works (you pay in some fashion to obtain things you want, or conversely, you are paid for producing something others want), it just adds a lot more to the conversation if you explain why.

Nope, no communist here ! More the opposite of it tho ;o)

Now ... if I would be a hacker ... I would say that because of the basic concept of being a "real" hacker. But I am not ...

But that was not my point ! Since I am one of those suckers that "some" people call capitalist ... I am just against Apple iPhone Unlocks ! IMO did Apple (and Steve Jobs) a hell of a job with the iPhone and I simply donīt like the idea of "getting-around" his concept (in cooperation with AT&T) of making money out of it.

irun5k
Aug 24, 2007, 02:41 PM
Regardless of whether this is legal or not, there are a couple of things that I don't think anyone would dispute:

1) If you take a iPhone under warranty into an Apple Store for repair, it is reasonably safe to assume that they won't touch it if it is on a non-AT&T network. Even if you could restore the phone, it would be easy to determine that you aren't an AT&T customer.

2) You can be reasonably sure that if you are having problems with your actual phone service, and you go into a T-Mobile store with an iPhone, you're going to have an uphill battle.

Of course, this won't stop some people just like some people are modding their phones with 3rd party hacks. Honestly I don't care either way. But my whole philosophy on electronics, computers, etc. at this point is to use them and just have them work. I have Apple Care on my Macbook just for piece of mind. If something breaks or becomes unreliable, to me it is a major hassle in my life that I don't have the time or desire to deal with.

This isn't to say I don't relate to the hacker/modder community. I used to be in to all that stuff. At that point in my life tinkering was part of the game. Staying up until 3am several nights in a row building and rebuilding my own machines and trying to get Linux to work was part of the fun. And, truth be known, it taught me a lot about computers. But at this point in my life, an iMac just makes sense. And I *never* thought I'd want an all-in-one computer that I couldn't fix myself!

bdj21ya
Aug 24, 2007, 02:41 PM
This is a hack and by all definitions hacks should always be free.

If Apple made phone and said hey if well you just bought this 599 dollars of equippment and to use it with this network is free but if you want to use it with other networks pay us 50 dollars and we can unlock if for you most people would be up in arms over it.

This is like surfer serialz. Should we pay them for the serial numbers they post unlocking shareware for others to use.

They shouldn't make a product that skirts the legality of a contract for personel profit.

P.S.

Communism has nothing to do with it. And this has nothing to do with throwing anything back in the face of anyone. If you were a hacker you would understand why they do what they do and for what reasons. Profit is always usually never in most of their minds.

I am a hacker. I learn to do what I do for my own personal benefit. When I feel like sharing something, I share it. But if I created a really useful product and thought I could make some money off of it, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

I think that just labeling it a hack and saying that hacks should be free is silly. If this is eventually ruled (or has already been ruled) legal, then this is legitimate software that performs a legitimate function, nothing like stealing serial codes.

mainstreetmark
Aug 24, 2007, 02:41 PM
Honestly, I think this whole hacking the iphone to add features or unlock it is really very childish. Like spending $600 to have the equivalent features of a $300 phone just because it's an Apple product.


Well, for me, the features it does have work SO much better than any other cellphone I've ever had. It syncs properly. It handles calendar data properly. Hell, it even shows all my contacts in it's phone book, which my last phone quit doing. It lets me store new numbers for people which my treo 600 didn't do. It recognized cellphone numbers in websites, which no phones do. It has a maps application that is so useful, I have yet to dial directory assistance (literally, you're looking at the neighborhood you're in, and you type what you want, and it takes you there, with a phone number). The voicemail thing by itself is going to make going back to traditional voicemail like going from Tiger to WinXP (you have to try this). The ease of use is beyond any phone I've ever read about. You can even watch Evolution of Dance, for some reason.

Now, as I'm certain you must realize by now, the is iPhone OS v1.0, and extended/improved features are actively and currently being worked on by the world' best software company, and there's no indication they'll ever be paid upgrades (though some of the 'games' may be!)

It's not childish, in fact, it's good business, to release a totally useable phone with really innovative features now, rather than wait another 9 months for even more useful an innovative features. Look how long the iPod took to perfect: at least four generations, and a lot of that was hardware maturity. The iPhone's hardware maturity seems pretty solid now (has wifi, cellphone, multitouch), and so it's reasonable to assume that it's perfectly capable CPU can be extended with countless apps, forever, without the need for a hardware upgrade.

ReanimationLP
Aug 24, 2007, 02:43 PM
speaking of iphone these are neat

EDIT - I wrote that on an iPhone while in an ATT store. Pretty neat, but hard to type on.

TPALTony
Aug 24, 2007, 02:44 PM
Where's the precedent to believe they will do this? People have been unlocking carrier locked GSM phones for years.

Personally I would just like my iPhone unlocked so I can pop a local SIM card in it when in Europe, to avoid ridiculous EDGE fees from AT&T. I'm still going to remain a AT&T customer in the USA however, as AT&T provide a better service and certainly better support for the iPhone than T-Mobile.

I ran up $1100 of roaming charges in the UK, simply checking the odd email and occaisonally surfing the web, and a few calls here and there. I have a UK cell phone on the Orange network (it has no monthly fee as it was done on a Virgin tariff back when they had 0 monthly fee tarrifs and Orange would let you use anyone elses tarrif on their network if you wanted to.) It would be great to be able to pop my Orange sim in my phone when I'm there and avoid those charges!

Other than that, I had t-mobile on my company blackberry for 5 years and the coverage was atrocious. Wouldn't have any interest in breaking my phone off AT&T as their coverage in my area is as good as my old Verizon coverage was (NJ/NY, general tri-state area.)

be well

t

bc008
Aug 24, 2007, 02:46 PM
well this is what im going to do once my 2 year contract expires, but im pretty happy with ATT at the moment.

Keebler
Aug 24, 2007, 02:51 PM
Because Apple makes a cut of money from AT&T services, not just the physical iPhone.

dev is right. Plus, I would think the fact Apple has a relationship with AT&T so they'll want to protect that (and I'm sure AT&T is quite interested as well).

I can't see Apple letting this one slide.

RealMcCoy
Aug 24, 2007, 02:53 PM
...
Farmboy,

See how mobile phones are being used around the world. US laws are NOT binding on those outside of the US and please leave your American arrogance at the door. Mobile phones and mobile phone technology is not based on US dominance.

??? American arrogance ? The iPhone is the concept of an American company called Apple, Inc. ... why bother and get one of these "arrogant" thingies ?

bdj21ya
Aug 24, 2007, 02:54 PM
Nope, no communist here ! More the opposite of it tho ;o)

Now ... if I would be a hacker ... I would say that because of the basic concept of being a "real" hacker. But I am not ...

But that was not my point ! Since I am one of those suckers that "some" people call capitalist ... I am just against Apple iPhone Unlocks ! IMO did Apple (and Steve Jobs) a hell of a job with the iPhone and I simply donīt like the idea of "getting-around" his concept (in cooperation with AT&T) of making money out of it.

Thanks for the explanation McCoy, I can definitely understand your sentiments. The iPhone is a truly great peice of work. If it weren't for my previous experience with AT&T's horrendous customer service (and I mean bordering on things that breach their contract with me, such as providing me a new SIM card that wouldn't work with my phone, then demanding I buy a new phone, rather than reactivating my old SIM).

Here was the issue: we wanted to change our phone numbers to a local area code after a recent move. Now in my experience with T-mobile, this took about 5 minutes and no hassle (AND no contract extension). With AT&T, they said we would need new SIM cards because we were still using the old SIM's (from AT&T before they became Cingular). When we got the new cards, I called to activate mine.

After the activation call (you have to call AT&T to activate), I hung up and put the new SIM in my phone. When I turned it on, it said "Enter Subsidy Unlock Code:" and of course would do nothing else (as you know, carriers here require manufacturers to lock the phones, and apparently Cingular hadn't bothered to make their SIMS compatible with the old AT&T phones). I called back, and they said there was nothing I could do, they told me I would have to buy a new phone, they wouldn't cancel the contract without me paying termination fee, and they wanted me to extend the contract even further to get a subsidized phone. After haggling with them for more than 3 hours, they finally transferred me to someone who reactivated my old SIM in about 5 minutes.

Because of this and several other incidences demonstrating AT&T/Cingular Customer Services Reps' complete incompetence (along with their policy of extending contracts for various requests without informing the customer), I believe that AT&T is EVIL, and was saddened by Apple's deal with them. Hence, I am very happy to see people find a way to go with T-Mobile.

bdj21ya
Aug 24, 2007, 02:56 PM
To all those saying Apple will lose money because of their profit sharing deal with AT&T: simply not true. Apple makes a lot more profit per iPhone sold than they do from the service kickback.

There may be several other ways in which this works out to be bad for Apple, but that ain't one of them (assuming of course that this has more of an effect on people considering new iPhones than those who are already in iPhone/AT&T contracts).

RealMcCoy
Aug 24, 2007, 02:59 PM
Thanks for the explanation McCoy, I can definitely understand your sentiments. The iPhone is a truly great peice of work. If it weren't for my previous experience with AT&T's horrendous customer service (and I mean bordering on things that breach their contract with me, such as providing me a new SIM card that wouldn't work with my phone, then demanding I buy a new phone, rather than reactivating my old SIM).

Here was the issue: we wanted to change our phone numbers to a local area code after a recent move. Now in my experience with T-mobile, this took about 5 minutes and no hassle (AND no contract extension). With AT&T, they said we would need new SIM cards because we were still using the old SIM's (from AT&T before they became Cingular). When we got the new cards, I called to activate mine.

After the activation call (you have to call AT&T to activate), I hung up and put the new SIM in my phone. When I turned it on, it said "Enter Subsidy Unlock Code:" and of course would do nothing else (as you know, carriers here require manufacturers to lock the phones, and apparently Cingular hadn't bothered to make their SIMS compatible with the old AT&T phones). I called back, and they said there was nothing I could do, they told me I would have to buy a new phone, they wouldn't cancel the contract without me paying termination fee, and they wanted me to extend the contract even further to get a subsidized phone. After haggling with them for more than 3 hours, they finally transferred me to someone who reactivated my old SIM in about 5 minutes.

Because of this and several other incidences demonstrating AT&T/Cingular Customer Services Reps' complete incompetence (along with their policy of extending contracts for various requests without informing the customer), I believe that AT&T is EVIL, and was saddened by Apple's deal with them. Hence, I am very happy to see people find a way to go with T-Mobile.

Hey ... I do understand what youīre saying ... but I am sure there are a "couple" of people that can tell you similar stories in regards to other providers.

Macula
Aug 24, 2007, 03:05 PM
On a second thought... Until a couple of years ago, it used to be the case that anyone who wanted to have a cell phone unlocked could go to a random electronics store in Chinatown (NY), and those lovely Asian tech wizards would do it on the spot for a few bucks.

A couple of weeks ago, however, there was not a single vendor in Chinatown willing to crack a cell phone. Most pretended to be ignorant, and only a few outrightly admitted that they are afraid of the potential legal consequences. So, something happened in the meantime -- perhaps some threatening mass mailings to Chinatown zip codes from the phone carriers' legal departments.

Long story short: It seems that there is a way, legalistic or otherwise, to discourage third-party unlocks.

JoeG4
Aug 24, 2007, 03:06 PM
Because Apple makes a cut of money from AT&T services, not just the physical iPhone.

IMHO that should have been very illegal.

Stella
Aug 24, 2007, 03:07 PM
I agree that "freedom of criticism" is important - but to criticize for the sake of criticizing is just plain stupid. Some people think that to be truly objective requires that they find fault with everything and ultimately they end up very unhappy people.

Yes, criticism for the sake of it, is a waste of time. However, are you suggesting that those who are criticizing Apple on this forum have no basis to do so? :-)

Black Belt
Aug 24, 2007, 03:09 PM
I'd love for you to cite the case law on that.

Someone did it for me.

There's a ton of misinformation that's being passed around about the legality of unlocking cell phones in the United States.

Yes, there sure is :rolleyes:

edoates
Aug 24, 2007, 03:20 PM
Where's the precedent to believe they will do this? People have been unlocking carrier locked GSM phones for years.

Personally I would just like my iPhone unlocked so I can pop a local SIM card in it when in Europe, to avoid ridiculous EDGE fees from AT&T. I'm still going to remain a AT&T customer in the USA however, as AT&T provide a better service and certainly better support for the iPhone than T-Mobile.

The riidiculous EDGE fees in outside the US are set by the local PTT, not necessarily by ATT, as are the $1.29 minute voice usage charges.

When outside the US, the most devastating feature is the inability to turn off EDGE to prevent running up an astronomical data bill. I don't mind the voice charges (well I do), but at least I can use a stop watch to control it, as with SMS (50 cents / message). I don't generally stay long enough outside of US spot to justify a SIM per country.

What I would like is a cheaper T-Mobile hotspot plan to use WIFI: on their website, it's $49/month for internet only access. If there is something that various business should just do for "free," its setting up mobile hotspots for their customers: coffee shops, airports, etc. T-Mobile has it sort of sewn up, but once someone else breaks through, how many WIFI plans do I need to have so that I can use the internet "on the go" without the slower 3G or EDGE connections?

Eddie O

NewSc2
Aug 24, 2007, 03:25 PM
How would EDGE work in other countries (do they have it set up if they're already on 3G)? Also, how would T-Mobile charge the data rates in the U.S.? Is there an unlimited plan for cheaper than AT&T? I recall most unlimited data plans were in the $40-50 range.

Derwood
Aug 24, 2007, 03:25 PM
...a pleasure to read. I think the significance of this story is undeniable when you consider the responses it has received thus far.

The implications are really interesting for all those countries outside of the U.S. that are still awaiting a local iPhone launch. Here in the UK the Ģ:$ exchange rate is weighted so heavily in our favour that this could have a real impact on U.K. sales and I imagine this is not the only country where this would be the case.

Now what would really be interesting is the AppleCare question. On all (:confused:) Apple products the coverage is worldwide, correct? If I'm in Europe and my MacBook dies on me I can pop into an authorised Apple dealer and have them fix it under the terms of my AppleCare agreement. Is this the same with iPhone? If so, then that really opens the floodgates for iPhone imports from the US.

Someone raised the issue of the software install / alternate network thing as being a possible justification for Apple not honouring the warranty - can't remember who - but that's not the case with other Apple products, is it? If I wipe OS X off my MacBook in favour of Ubuntu (not me, although I'm sure some have), Apple wouldn't quibble about the warranty if I took it in with a valid and qualifying hardware issue. What if I had installed Linux on my 5G iPod? Would this be the same with the iPhone: I guess what I'm saying, rather long windedly, is that unless its made explicit in the terms of the warranty (which in future I suppose it could be) then there would be no warranty issues, regardless of installed software or which network you choose to be on.

Really interesting development. If this really starts to fly then I can't see how it wouldn't put downward pressure on price of UK and Euro iPhone at launch.

My tuppence worth,

Derwood

irun5k
Aug 24, 2007, 03:42 PM
There are always a ton of posts here about people's experiences with an individual carrier. It is important to keep all these stories in perspective- they're anecdotal, nothing more.

As someone else alluded to, you can find a positive or negative story about practically any carrier. There is no way to guarantee what your experience with an individual carrier will be like. Any time you deal with a large company, you are really at the mercy of whoever your call gets routed to in their call center.

This isn't to say that scientifically conducted surveys can't yield information on which carriers, on average, are better at certain things than the others. But I can assure you, which ever carrier got the iPhone deal was bound to be the recipient of a lot of forums posts saying how bad they suck.

weckart
Aug 24, 2007, 03:42 PM
Now what would really be interesting is the AppleCare question. On all (:confused:) Apple products the coverage is worldwide, correct? If I'm in Europe and my MacBook dies on me I can pop into an authorised Apple dealer and have them fix it under the terms of my AppleCare agreement. Is this the same with iPhone? If so, then that really opens the floodgates for iPhone imports from the US.

Someone raised the issue of the software install / alternate network thing as being a possible justification for Apple not honouring the warranty - can't remember who - but that's not the case with other Apple products, is it?

I bet this is a firmware hack, which would invalidate your warranty and is not comparable to installing another OS, but we would have to wait for the details of the fix to be sure and to see whether it does not fall foul of the DCMA laws in the States, despite the assurances of the hackers that what they are doing is all above board.

VicMacs
Aug 24, 2007, 03:47 PM
my country has 10million people... right now id say there are about 200 iphones and theyre only being used as ipods.... when this gets out im seeing well over 1,000 people getting it... i know of at least 50 people waiting to get one as soon as its unblocked and there are many more waiting... i have to say that if this gets out, then its going to be big... i dont think apple/att is going to let this out....

CWallace
Aug 24, 2007, 03:49 PM
I bet this is a firmware hack, which would invalidate your warranty and is not comparable to installing another OS...

It appears that even restoring/updating the iPhone's firmware still allows you to swap carriers, so it would be pretty easy for Apple to identify that the phone has been modified in a way that contravenes AppleCare. And it may be within Apple's right to just refuse to work on the phone, even if you were willing to pay for the necessary firmware repair out-of-pocket, which would mean you'd have to try and recover that from a third-party source (assuming they are getting the firmware legitimately from Apple, for if they are not, then Apple Legal will probably be all over them).

So it may be the folks who created this hack will legally be allowed to do it, but it may mean you're on your own when you do so. If you mess-up your iPhone, you may end up with having to buy a new one...

hagjohn
Aug 24, 2007, 03:51 PM
I predict a lawsuit.

I do too... loss of revenue for both ATT and Apple.


MSNBC... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20424880/

Papajohn56
Aug 24, 2007, 03:51 PM
TMobile is an awful provider anyway, so this doesn't do me a lot of good. Once someone can figure out how to make it on CDMA and go on Verizon I'll be happy. In other words, it'll never happen because it's impossible.

Why is TMobile bad? My Fav 5 doesn't include mobile to mobile minutes, their coverage is awful except in large cities, and they charge for WiFi hotspots.

irun5k
Aug 24, 2007, 03:53 PM
Someone raised the issue of the software install / alternate network thing as being a possible justification for Apple not honouring the warranty - can't remember who - but that's not the case with other Apple products, is it? If I wipe OS X off my MacBook in favour of Ubuntu (not me, although I'm sure some have), Apple wouldn't quibble about the warranty if I took it in with a valid and qualifying hardware issue. What if I had installed Linux on my 5G

Well, if it were me I'd certainly want to try and reinstall OS X before taking it back in. I've had Apple get snippy with me once because I had third party RAM installed in my MacBook. It was almost like I automatically got a lower level of service since I had "modded" my MacBook.

But, the iPhone is a bit different. Remember, you can't even use the thing at all until it is activated with AT&T. Currently it is a closed device designed to be used on a specific cellular network. I can see how, at a bare minimum, they'd give you a lot of grief.

It is like once when I took my car in (under warranty) for a loud noise near the engine. I had an aftermarket bicycle roof rack on top. They said the roof rack was causing the noise and didn't investigate further until I raised my voice substantially. Turns out I needed a whole new transmission- that was the cause of the noise.

I'm not sure if it is policy, human tendency, or what- but it seems like people are ALWAYS looking for a way out. Unfortunately, having 3rd party RAM, Linux, an alternate carrier, or a roof rack seems to give our friends in customer service enough to try and weasel out of any responsibility.

So in my original post, that was really my point. These days I'd just rather go completely stock and not introduce any room for debate, simply because I don't have the desire to deal with it or get in a heated argument if I can avoid it.

ChrisK018
Aug 24, 2007, 03:54 PM
Now if only someone could hack Verizon and magically get them onto GSM.

Papajohn56
Aug 24, 2007, 03:55 PM
Now if only someone could hack Verizon and magically get them onto GSM.

No thanks. I don't like GSM as a technology. It may be more widely used around the world, but CDMA has much better building penetration and power.

bdj21ya
Aug 24, 2007, 03:58 PM
There are always a ton of posts here about people's experiences with an individual carrier. It is important to keep all these stories in perspective- they're anecdotal, nothing more.

As someone else alluded to, you can find a positive or negative story about practically any carrier. There is no way to guarantee what your experience with an individual carrier will be like. Any time you deal with a large company, you are really at the mercy of whoever your call gets routed to in their call center.

This isn't to say that scientifically conducted surveys can't yield information on which carriers, on average, are better at certain things than the others. But I can assure you, which ever carrier got the iPhone deal was bound to be the recipient of a lot of forums posts saying how bad they suck.

Agreed, but I'm pretty certain that the scientific studies yield results that Verizon and T-Mobile are at the top for U.S. cell company customer service ratings (I'd cite the study, but I'd have to pay to subscribe to consumer reports to confirm this easily, anyone else have the hard data?).

I just wanted to share my anecdotal evidence to give people an idea of how evil they can be, since I wouldn't have guessed it before experiencing it for myself. Also, there is a transcript (http://redtape.msnbc.com/2007/08/gotcha-room-a-2.html) from a recent piece on Red Tape Chronicles discussing how common it is for carriers to extend contracts when you call them, without your consent, EVEN WITHOUT INFORMING YOU. This has been my continued experience with AT&T, while I called T-mobile many times for similar requests (e.g. changing phone number) and had no problems with them extending my contract.

willybNL
Aug 24, 2007, 03:59 PM
Do they use the same method as mentioned on

http://iphonejtag.blogspot.com/2007_08_01_archive.html

?

ChrisK018
Aug 24, 2007, 03:59 PM
Penetration and power is important (laughs like Butt-head).

I was jealous, when traveling from the USA to the UK, that my pal's T-mobile phone worked across the pond.

Mainly I just wish the iPhone worked with Verizon-- because I am lazy.

SiliconAddict
Aug 24, 2007, 04:04 PM
It will be very interesting to see if Apple Legal can get bent. :mad: Sorry but if the hardware isn't subsidized then I should be able to buy and hack the dang hardware as I see fit. Screw the lawyers and Jobs if this will be their attitude.

BWhaler
Aug 24, 2007, 04:18 PM
I generally stay away from Hacksies and things of that ilk since it is not worth the headache when a patch comes from Apple, and in general, I am pleased with the way Apple designs its products.

But this is one hack I think I may do.

I am an AT&T customer, despite my loathing the company, but international roaming rates are simply criminal.

If AT&T were smart, they would re-negotiate their international roaming deals and offer reasonable roaming rates. Executives like myself who don't like hacking my devices and have decent disposable income will pay more to roam internationally with the convenience of our global phone number.

But at $2 - $5 per minute, we'll use local SIMMS and AT&T will see no revenue.

Not smart business.

j763
Aug 24, 2007, 04:19 PM
Wow.. Sane people might actually buy an iPhone now.

cameronjpu
Aug 24, 2007, 04:26 PM
Profit is always usually never in most of their minds.

This has to be one of my favorite English sentences of all time. Three cheers for American education! ;)

Compile 'em all
Aug 24, 2007, 04:27 PM
I can? ... Buy an iPhone from Apple store, buy unlock software, then use my current t-mobile SIM, without having to activate the phone with ATT first?

The iPhone doesn't need to be activated with ATT. The activation scheme was broken from day one, and there at least two pieces of software that can do that for you; the one from DVD John or iActivator (or iNdepedance v1.0).

So what you will need is an iPhone, your SIM, an activation program, and the unlock software that this whole thread is about.

cameronjpu
Aug 24, 2007, 04:27 PM
Apple didn't let AT&T subsidize the iPhone, so we are assuming it is full price.

That's junk.

Apple makes hundreds of dollars over the life of each iPhone as a result of its use on ATT's network. You really think that if Apple didn't have that certain income, that the price of the iPhone would not change? Come on!

cameronjpu
Aug 24, 2007, 04:36 PM
To all those saying Apple will lose money because of their profit sharing deal with AT&T: simply not true. Apple makes a lot more profit per iPhone sold than they do from the service kickback.

So wait, because they are making more money by selling the iPhone than from the kickbacks (which should be over $120 per customer by the way), that means Apple should not care about losing that money? That $120 is the subsidy - for Apple to make the same money from the deal without the kickbacks, they would have to sell the phone for $150 more, give or take.

angelwatt
Aug 24, 2007, 04:36 PM
This is neat and props to the six that worked on this. Though it really doesn't do anything for me, won't have an iPhone possibly ever. I'll stick with my $8/mth plan.

rjwill246
Aug 24, 2007, 04:37 PM
Word! Here in Sweden every single phone on the market can be bought unlocked. Further more we don't even pay when we receive calls and SMS, heck we can even receive calls and SMS when without any money on our pay-to-go cards. I lived in Orange County the first half of this year and the cell phone business in the US is the evil work of capitalism.


International iPhone sales on eBay are going to bloom now.

I have no idea what you are talking about!! I spend a lot of time in Orange County and have a contract with ATT for 2 phones with no data or text charges and the bill is $79/ month TOTAL!!!!

cameronjpu
Aug 24, 2007, 04:38 PM
IMHO that should have been very illegal.

Illegal? Why? Why shouldn't Apple get ongoing revenue in exchange for bringing ATT customers who use high margin services for years? Why in the world should that be illegal?

rjwill246
Aug 24, 2007, 04:40 PM
I am an AT&T customer, despite my loathing the company, but international roaming rates are simply criminal.

If AT&T were smart, they would re-negotiate their international roaming deals and offer reasonable roaming rates. Executives like myself who don't like hacking my devices and have decent disposable income will pay more to roam internationally with the convenience of our global phone number.

But at $2 - $5 per minute, we'll use local SIMMS and AT&T will see no revenue.

Not smart business.

You are so right. The US charges are very reasonable but roaming is a nightmare. ATT should work out a deal with the "roamers" for rates that are the same as US prices, otherwise hacking and SIM card replacement is the only way to go for travelers.

In the meantime, this might put a damper on any deals with all the other carriers as they will not be happy about doing a deal with Apple that can be undone so quickly.

BWhaler
Aug 24, 2007, 04:40 PM
I am amazed people are ringing up such large international bills and claiming they knew nothing about it.

The iPhone has a feature to help you manage this.

Before your trip:

1. Go to Settings
2. Click on Usage
3. Click reset.

Now you can track both your voice and data usage during the trip.

I am in Asia right now, and I can instantly see that a) I am below the 20 meg monthly limit on my plan and b) I have spent about $120 on voice calls.

Don't get me wrong, it's insane how crazy international roaming costs are. But not knowing about how much you are spending is just foolish.

twoodcc
Aug 24, 2007, 04:48 PM
It will be very interesting to see if Apple Legal puts a stop on this...and if so, on what legal grounds.

yeah, i bet they'll try to do something. this is a big deal

cobravap
Aug 24, 2007, 04:49 PM
Makes me want an iphone more now.

kresh
Aug 24, 2007, 04:53 PM
Quoted from iphonesimfree.com:

"We are currently opening up our mail for bulk purchase enquiries of 500 licenses and above. "

They know that no one is going to pay for this utility once it gets out in the wild and they are trying to get license fees up front through bulk sales, before "Individual per unit licenses will be available starting next week". Good luck with that.

I predict this will be the most pirated piece of software recently produced.

irun5k
Aug 24, 2007, 04:57 PM
On a recent trip to Australia, I checked with AT&T before leaving and it was going to cost us an arm and the leg to call back to the US. I don't even remember what the rate was but I remember thinking I could be out 20 or 30 bucks for one moderate length call.

That is what prompted me to use Skype for the first time. Hotel broadband and airport wifi + MacBook + Skype and I was able to talk to whoever I needed to, and spent about 2 bucks for the entire 10 day trip.

Mind you, this isn't a truly portable cell phone experience. But for someone who just needed to make occasional calls back home, it was a life saver. And so much easier than fooling with calling cards.

Now that I'm back home, whenever I need to make international calls, I use Skype.

I sometimes would wonder what the use of having Skype on a cell phone would be- it made no sense to me. But now I can see it... (I also see why some carriers might not want Skype capabilities on a phone!)

offwidafairies
Aug 24, 2007, 05:01 PM
Makes me want an iphone more now.

Ditto! And I wasnt even in the market!! But its kinda cool that Im in Australia and can maybe now use the iPhone with an Australian carrier of my choice it seems.....

Macrumors is on fire this morning :)

cameronjpu
Aug 24, 2007, 05:02 PM
I predict this will be the most pirated piece of software recently produced.

You think? You have to spend $600 first - I would say this would be a VERY niche product.

kresh
Aug 24, 2007, 05:08 PM
You think? You have to spend $600 first - I would say this would be a VERY niche product.

You're right of course, I wasn't very clear with my thoughts.

I meant that it would be the most pirated program by percentages, if only 600 people use this program, I'm thinking that 585 of those people will download a torrent distributed copy.

irvingdizzle
Aug 24, 2007, 05:10 PM
I predict this will be the most pirated piece of software recently produced.[/COLOR]

haha

SPUY767
Aug 24, 2007, 05:15 PM
I'm glad that someone did it, not that it matters to me, befcause at&t's data rates are better than T-Mobile's, and at&t service covers a wider area than T-Mobile down here. But this means that iPhone sales will likely jump, if only modestly, which is an increas in AAPL stock. I LOVE my iphone. In installed the terminal app on it, and I can use it as a mobile network troubleshooter in my hotel, I can log into and repair routers without carrying my laptop around.

SPUY767
Aug 24, 2007, 05:16 PM
Wow.. Sane people might actually buy an iPhone now.

Thanks for the insult. Now, shove it up your behind.

Taylor C
Aug 24, 2007, 05:16 PM
Pirates are going to jump on this quicker than the Leopard developer Beta.

SPUY767
Aug 24, 2007, 05:18 PM
Illegal? Why? Why shouldn't Apple get ongoing revenue in exchange for bringing ATT customers who use high margin services for years? Why in the world should that be illegal?

Especially since AT&T isn't losing money on the Apple phones like they do on the hadnsets of every other manufacturer. Well, except for the very cheapest of the cheap.

matthutch
Aug 24, 2007, 05:24 PM
What would be nice is if they could combine the YouTube unlocker and this unlocked into one.

Has anyone here successfully performed the YouTube unlocker yet?

guifa
Aug 24, 2007, 05:41 PM
I sometimes would wonder what the use of having Skype on a cell phone would be- it made no sense to me. But now I can see it... (I also see why some carriers might not want Skype capabilities on a phone!)
T-Mobile USA now will enable this for you (their own VOIP network, but same idea) for $9.99 / month. They give you a router if you need one but you can hook it up with any open network and those with certain types of encryptions and you get unlimited calls to both mobile and landline of all operators when using the VOIP connexion. If you stray outside of the wireless network, it swaps over to the T-Mobile towers, and switches back when you head back into the wifi zone.

numlock
Aug 24, 2007, 05:43 PM
Quoted from iphonesimfree.com:

"We are currently opening up our mail for bulk purchase enquiries of 500 licenses and above. "

They know that no one is going to pay for this utility once it gets out in the wild and they are trying to get license fees up front through bulk sales, before "Individual per unit licenses will be available starting next week". Good luck with that.

I predict this will be the most pirated piece of software recently produced.

the irony.


i havent gone through the entire thread but am i right in understanding that one could buy an iphone in the states and move it to any country with a gsm service and use it there with a local provider?

Beaner
Aug 24, 2007, 05:52 PM
A couple of things I thought I might add, this move is likely to put pressure on Apple to deploy the Iphone to other regions - otherwise they will be too late. People will have them and be running on a network that is not paying Apple kickbacks.

You may say only geeks and the like will apply this unlock so that affect could be small, but you have to be realistic about the target audience of this device. This is a US $599 device that really is targeted at that market. (The rumored Iphone nano might be a different story) The kind of people buying Iphones are the kind of people most likely to apply this patch.

It will also hurt Apple's abillity to negiotiate exclusive deals that involve revenue sharing.

If I was representing a carrier, I would be telling Apple to jam it - I am going to get added customers anyway without any revenue sharing - just from people buying, unlocking and using my network SIM in the Iphone.

cowm007
Aug 24, 2007, 05:56 PM
You guys know those clauses that the music industry has with the iTunes store contracts that say if DRM is ever circumvented Apple has a short time to issue a fix or they reserve the right to back out of the deal?

I imagine AT&T would have included some similar clause in their contract with Apple so I wouldn't be surprised to see a future update relock phones if technically possible of course.

dontwalkhand
Aug 24, 2007, 05:56 PM
This is helpful for a person like me who has T-Mobile, but want an iPhone. Cingular service does not work well at my house, but T-Mobile service works great. Also, I get internet for $5 with T-Mobile right now.


I just hope that the software are for Macs, because I do not trust Parallels and how it handles USB devices.

skellener
Aug 24, 2007, 05:57 PM
It will be very interesting to see if Apple Legal puts a stop on this...and if so, on what legal grounds.
I doubt there's much Apple or AT&T legal can do. It is 100% legal to unlock your cell phone in the U.S. :)

http://www.copyright.gov/1201/

Computer programs in the form of firmware that enable wireless telephone handsets to connect to a wireless telephone communication network, when circumvention is accomplished for the sole purpose of lawfully connecting to a wireless telephone communication network.

yg17
Aug 24, 2007, 06:01 PM
I just hope that the software are for Macs, because I do not trust Parallels and how it handles USB devices.


I've flashed my phone (HTC Herald) several times from a Parallels VM and everything went well. I've yet to run into any issues with a VM and a USB device.

Compile 'em all
Aug 24, 2007, 06:01 PM
the irony.


i havent gone through the entire thread but am i right in understanding that one could buy an iphone in the states and move it to any country with a gsm service and use it there with a local provider?

YES.

bdj21ya
Aug 24, 2007, 06:02 PM
So wait, because they are making more money by selling the iPhone than from the kickbacks (which should be over $120 per customer by the way), that means Apple should not care about losing that money? That $120 is the subsidy - for Apple to make the same money from the deal without the kickbacks, they would have to sell the phone for $150 more, give or take.

So, the idea was that the people who would go for this are those who want an iPhone but are unwilling to sign a contract with AT&T. Hence, they are selling iPhones that they would not have sold. Apple makes a large profit on each iPhone sold (probably around $250 to $300). Still, it depends on your theory. If you think this has more of a result that people who would have bought iPhones and AT&T plans now buy iPhones and go with AT&T, or if you think the effect is more that people who would not have bought iPhones will.

My opinion is that it would be the latter.

RealMcCoy
Aug 24, 2007, 06:12 PM
... the cell phone business in the US is the evil work of capitalism.

Viva la revolution ! Vamos bien ;o) :confused:

peharri
Aug 24, 2007, 06:14 PM
I doubt there's much Apple or AT&T legal can do. It is 100% legal to unlock your cell phone in the U.S. :)

http://www.copyright.gov/1201/

I wonder what would happen if someone offered T-Mobile USA similar terms to those Apple has offered AT&T - eg, they'll buy, unlock, and "relock" an iPhone to T-Mobile's network, selling the phone on, with T-Mobile kicking them back a $3-8 per month fee for doing so.

If that became a practical proposition, the sheer insanity of continuing with the locked phone model would become apparent even to those thinking they're benefiting from it right now.

If Apple made a phone that was desirable to me, I'd rather pay the $3x24 ($72) extra you would have gotten from AT&T so I can use it with T-Mobile normally, or an AT&T GoPhone PAYG SIM when I don't have coverage, and a PAYG SIM when I'm abroad, than use it only on AT&T. But the logic of charging slightly more for a much better product seems lost on some companies that supposedly have a reputation for doing just that.

dr_lha
Aug 24, 2007, 06:15 PM
Why is Edge fees ridiculous? No other carries provides unlimited data access for a smart phone for under $40/month. $20/month is a pretty good deal in comparison.
Did you even read my post? I was talking about EDGE prices when abroad.

Rot'nApple
Aug 24, 2007, 06:20 PM
Visual Voicemail, great feature, but not necessarily worth giving money to a company I hate (AT&T). T-mobile was always really friendly, and their support reps were always so much more competent, in my dealings with the two companies.

I am always curious when I hear about 'customer dealings' of one mobile provider being better then that of another. Maybe for those individuals that utilize their plan, both voice and/or data, to the maximum and may go over and therefore have a billing issue or the like... I have NEVER encountered a situation that required me to deal with a mobile provider's customer service with any regards other than to sign-up for my initial plan, get my phone and maybe make an in-store monthly bill payment.

I had been with Altell for about 5 years before moving on to T-Mobile for the past 4 years and outside of going to a local altell or t-mob shop to make a monthly bill payment that would have been late had I put it in the mail or to stop by the shop every 6 months or so to see the new phones that might be out, I have had virtually no contact with either company's customer service regarding any issues to be resovled in order to judge one way or the other how great or bad their customer service is. I'd image AT&T would be the same way, and that is, as long as I have no discrepancy with billing (ie. utilizing my plan both voice and/or data to the maximum and go over and therefore have a billing issue), I doubt if I'll ever need an AT&T customer service rep, especially now that billing is no longer 300 pages, except to see the iPhone 2 when it comes out or change to a higher rate $$$ plan with more minutes.

Complaining to customer service about coverage and EDGE is a non issue, by that I mean, I have read the posts and hear the news and read the articles concerning EDGE and phone coverage so I'm not walking into something blind. Sure I can call AT&T to tell them I wish phone coverage was better in my area or data transfer speeds were faster but with all respect, I could have done the same with Altell and T-Mobile regarding coverage and/or data plans.

As I said, I am curious about what problems cropped up for other people (such as the poster I quoted - bdj21ya or others with similar experiences) that required customer service and when they got bad customer service, what happened. I'd like to know, just so I know what may be in store for me if I get an iPhone and switch from T-Mobile to AT&T (not going to use a hack software just to maintain a T-Mobile account)? - thanks

jjlange
Aug 24, 2007, 06:22 PM
I'd just like to say that on my local GSM carrier, I can get 200 minutes of voice (which is all I'll ever use) and unlimited data for $16.00 per month. If I was someone who would use text messaging, I could add that for an additional $5.00 per month. The concept of paying $60-100+ per month for (roughly) the same thing is mind-blowing to me. Oh, and I don't get AT&T or T-Mobile where I live, anyway.

toughboy
Aug 24, 2007, 06:32 PM
Because Apple makes a cut of money from AT&T services, not just the physical iPhone.

But on the other hand, this will enlarge iPhone's market from 300 million people up to 6 billion :rolleyes: Think Different, Think Bigger.. ^^

I dont see Apple caring about this. They even could have been given the software solution themselves.. Their margin on the iPhone sales are about 30-35%.. They already make good profit by selling iPhone alone.

Rot'nApple
Aug 24, 2007, 06:35 PM
That sounds good. Can we get rid of the federal, state, and local taxes and fees tariffs and service surcharges, too?

Don't hold your breath! :p

rollercoasternd
Aug 24, 2007, 06:46 PM
I wish that there was a way to switch it over to a CDMA network, I know its not physically possible but I love Alltel, they have excellent customer service, My RAZR was stolen in Time Square and Alltel was very friendly and disabled the phone and when I returned to Virgina they were very much willing to replace the phone, they didn't make me jump through any hoops. I've never had a dropped call, I always have lots of "bars," plus MyCircle is great, it has five more than T-Mobile's MyFavs.

HaGG
Aug 24, 2007, 06:59 PM
This is great news, only concern is the price. Tempted to import an iphone now:) , wonder if they will "patch" this somehow for the European version.

Rot'nApple
Aug 24, 2007, 07:01 PM
Agreed, but I'm pretty certain that the scientific studies yield results that Verizon and T-Mobile are at the top for U.S. cell company customer service ratings (I'd cite the study, but I'd have to pay to subscribe to consumer reports to confirm this easily, anyone else have the hard data?).

I just wanted to share my anecdotal evidence to give people an idea of how evil they can be, since I wouldn't have guessed it before experiencing it for myself. Also, there is a transcript (http://redtape.msnbc.com/2007/08/gotcha-room-a-2.html) from a recent piece on Red Tape Chronicles discussing how common it is for carriers to extend contracts when you call them, without your consent, EVEN WITHOUT INFORMING YOU. This has been my continued experience with AT&T, while I called T-mobile many times for similar requests (e.g. changing phone number) and had no problems with them extending my contract.

Well I inquired about your bad experience that has given you so much heartache that leads you to call AT&T Evil. Sorry you had to go through such a hassel that, fortunately, got resolved in the end. With regard to Verizon "at the top for U.S. cell company customer service ratings", I guess you didn't hear about this horror story about Verizon Customer Service and their math, I guess this individual can say Verizon if EVIL too!... http://media.putfile.com/Verizon-Bad-Math

pianojoe
Aug 24, 2007, 07:03 PM
You'll also feel pretty stupid when your hacked phones arrive at their European destinations - right about the same time Apple announces availability over there.

"Availability" in Germany means being tied to T-Mobile (a German company btw). Early cancellation is not common over here, so I can't switch providers, even if I wanted to.

Given that my hacked phone will arrive next week, about 4 months before the official German release—I think I won't look stupid at all.

inkswamp
Aug 24, 2007, 07:23 PM
The iPhone should have never be locked up in the first place.

Consumers pay full price for a phone.. and *still* be told what cell networks they can / can't use.

This application should be welcome. Consumer freedom.

There's also consumer freedom in that you don't have to buy an iPhone if you don't like Apple's way of doing things. They have a right to constrain their products however they want. You have a right to walk away from it. Nobody is forcing you to buy.

Having said that, I think Apple won't fight this. They still earn a lot of money off each iPhone sold, phone contract notwithstanding.

NicP
Aug 24, 2007, 07:24 PM
Yeah, I agree. I wouldn't really care so much if they supplied this hack for free. But turning a profit on such a thing is pretty despicable. And especially since the article says it is well deserved.

I guess we should start paying hackers for Serial numbers they turn out too.

Except that cracking serial numbers is illegal while unlocking phones is not.

Rot'nApple
Aug 24, 2007, 07:31 PM
This has to be one of my favorite English sentences of all time. Three cheers for American education! ;)

My favorite English sentences of all time is...

O Romeo, Romeo! wherefore art thou Romeo?...

'wherefore art thou' - cracks me up all the time!:D

Counter
Aug 24, 2007, 07:32 PM
GOOD.

Tying users' phones they paid for to specific networks is stupid and wrong.

GFLPraxis
Aug 24, 2007, 08:06 PM
I'm surprised they're selling it; it'll just be pirated, and Apple legal will sue very fast and close their accounts.

It would seem more profitable to just host it on a server with a ton of advertisements and make money off ads.

bcommunicated
Aug 24, 2007, 08:18 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20424880/

above is the link to MSNBC's story. It is hardware and software based and talkes about 2 hours to do. But there are two other interviewers talking about the legality of what he did and said that is is legal.

DeathChill
Aug 24, 2007, 08:32 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20424880/

above is the link to MSNBC's story. It is hardware and software based and talkes about 2 hours to do. But there are two other interviewers talking about the legality of what he did and said that is is legal.

Yeah this is a different method, the method Engadget mentions is different and only requires software so ANYONE can do it easily.

brepublican
Aug 24, 2007, 08:43 PM
*folding legs on couch with bowl of popcorn* Well, this should make for an interesting end to August. The ball's in your court Apple Legal :rolleyes:

Seriously though, this is the best news since the iPhone launch :)

jmadlena
Aug 24, 2007, 08:46 PM
...And you know that At$t does....

I just think it's funny that first it was big, bad Micro$oft, and now it's big, bad AT$T. I don't understand why the $ is supposed to be an insult to a company. It's a business, their purpose is to become the biggest and to make the most money. Microsoft obviously does something right, seeing as how it is the largest software company in the world. I don't see why the $ is stigmatized; everyone wants money. Companies, of course, should act responsibly, but AT&T keeping the iPhone exclusive isn't unethical, it's just good business practice.

ReanimationLP
Aug 24, 2007, 09:43 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20424880/

above is the link to MSNBC's story. It is hardware and software based and talkes about 2 hours to do. But there are two other interviewers talking about the legality of what he did and said that is is legal.

I'm sure Steve Jobs is hunting this kid down to assassinate him with his mystical powers.


Muhahahahahahahaha.

(Kidding of course.)

mudaudio
Aug 24, 2007, 09:47 PM
Engadget say with 100% certainty the software solution is 'restore-resistant'.

Am I missing something? How can this be guaranteed?

Just like software and ringtone hacks - the hack changes the os software - and subsequent iphone updates restore the software right back?

If this is true, you can always apply the hack again after update, unless Apple have written something to mess with it. If they have, you need to wait on an update for the hack before updating the iphone.

Not insurmountable obstacles, until the hackers can't figure out how to vex apple's latest update. At this point you have to stop updating your iphone, which quickly becomes as unreliable and insecure as a cracked copy windows xp.

Cue a 3 month delay followed by a 'version 2.0' hack, with 'new and improved restore resistance capabilities'. At a modest update price, of course.

PCMacUser
Aug 24, 2007, 09:54 PM
I think this is fantastic news. Power to the people! Or, um, iPhones to the people, on whatever network they want to use!

homeboy
Aug 24, 2007, 10:06 PM
One word: WARRANTY!!!

The problem with using the iPhone with a non AT&T card is that warranty will be voided which might not be a big problem since the iPhone can most likely be restored. But the 2 years iPhone warranty only applies if the user has signed up for the 2 years iPhone plan at AT&T. So in order to turn in your iPhone for warranty issues user with a non supported SIM card will be forced to get a hold of an AT&T card in order to get help.


Other than that I wonder how Apple will respond to this news. If you ask me Apple is already prepared for this. The iPhone is really not different from any other phone or programmable device, it getting hacked was inevitable. We knew it would take time but that eventually it would be done.

Releasing a new firmware which will disable the hack software won't change anything at all since the hackers will come up with a solution. This can turn out to be an endless battle and at the end of the day I don't think that apple will sweat it since you can't win against the hackers. Further more Apple doesn't lose out on anything.

rjwill246
Aug 24, 2007, 10:14 PM
I think this is fantastic news. Power to the people! Or, um, iPhones to the people, on whatever network they want to use!

The idea that ATT is evil and that whatever it takes to get the iPhone to the masses, however it might harm ATT (or even Apple for that matter) is silly!!
ATT gave up a lot to make this happen-- the Europeans pay heftily for data- a point that is often missing in these discussions where it is posited that ATT is ripping off the world but if you live in Europe your phone/calls/data are so cheap you could be a million Big Macs with the savings off your monthly bill!
It ain't so... The Apple/ATT deal is incredibly good. Hell, Verizon gave it a pass because they weren't about to give in to Apple's demands for a "cheap" service and the European carriers have made it clear that Apple's terms are hard to swallow-- interpretation-- they are not prepared to make the same concessions for the public benefit.

So, trying to ding ATT is stupid at best and shows a lack of maturity. Do you same folks want to ding BMW 'cause they cost more than a Hyundai? Why not? The real issue is not that all of you who want an iPhone and can't have one-- that is just how it is, for now, so get over it!

It would however be a noble thing for ATT, who HAS a total lock on this for now, to make roaming a lot cheaper. I hope the company looks at this seriously as that is one of the best reasons for hacking the phone.
The US contract is a good one but it gets very costly to take this phone out-of-area-- Nonetheless, well done, ATT and Apple for breaking new ground here. And brickbats to those who can't see what a great job this is. Only ATT was willing to step up to the plate... and Apple clearly got us consumers a very good deal. When I see my bill with all the data/internet use and see "0" charges for 2 minutes (what's with THAT??-- 2 minutes!! ) it just shows what a great deal it is.

mactree
Aug 24, 2007, 10:23 PM
We need more blue boxes!

Genghis Khan
Aug 24, 2007, 10:28 PM
If I can spend US $800 and get a cracked iPhone, i'll do it...anything more than that, and i may have to wait...

note235
Aug 24, 2007, 10:46 PM
i would if this will be on torrent sites?

jamminj
Aug 24, 2007, 10:46 PM
I think this is fantastic news. Power to the people! Or, um, iPhones to the people, on whatever network they want to use!

translation: A company should not be able to do what they want to do. It is my RIGHT to dictate how they should run their business. Supply and demand is not longer valid, it is what I want and how I want it. Shame on these companies for trying to run a business their way. .......

Please, what a bunch of cry babies. Don't like AT&T, iPhone, Apple... DON'T USE/BUY their products!!!!! Simple as that.

I think Verizon sucks, I think Microsoft sucks, I think Fords suck, I think WalMart sucks, but guess what - I DON'T buy their products!!!

Hate the iPhone, hate ATT - DON'T GET THE IPHONE - ITS NOT FOR YOU!!!!

Don't worry, you will still live. Geez, get the point yet?

note235
Aug 24, 2007, 10:53 PM
i have a question:
if i sign up for a cellphone provider but
cancel withint 1 year and pay the ETF will that effect my credit rating?

TPALTony
Aug 24, 2007, 11:09 PM
The riidiculous EDGE fees in outside the US are set by the local PTT, not necessarily by ATT, as are the $1.29 minute voice usage charges.

When outside the US, the most devastating feature is the inability to turn off EDGE to prevent running up an astronomical data bill. I don't mind the voice charges (well I do), but at least I can use a stop watch to control it, as with SMS (50 cents / message). I don't generally stay long enough outside of US spot to justify a SIM per country.

What I would like is a cheaper T-Mobile hotspot plan to use WIFI: on their website, it's $49/month for internet only access. If there is something that various business should just do for "free," its setting up mobile hotspots for their customers: coffee shops, airports, etc. T-Mobile has it sort of sewn up, but once someone else breaks through, how many WIFI plans do I need to have so that I can use the internet "on the go" without the slower 3G or EDGE connections?

Eddie O

Actually they're set by both sides of the connection. There's a roaming charge AT&T charges and there's a charge for network use from the network you roam onto. The breakdown is not shown on your bill or disclosed.

There's clearly a large markup from AT&T here because the international roaming rates between EU carriers are __WAY__ lower. In fact, the charges to use a UK cell phone while in the US are a fraction of the cost of doing it the other way around. I know because I used to use my UK cell phone all the time over here. Orange had a great international plan. They charged you, to receive calls while roaming, at the same rate it would call you to call the country you were in, from the UK. In the US case that was 6p (12c or so) per minute. And the other way around? 10 times that cost. Same networks in use, but the cost was astronomically different. AT&T charges you the same to make or receive calls while roaming. EU operators have different rates depending on whether you make or receive a call (remember in the EU you don't pay to receive calls on a cell phone while on your local network.)

And what is the EU doing about this? They're kicking the crap out of the carriers because their roaming charges are too high!

Suddenly sounds like EU versus US gasoline prices in reverse! :-)

Ultimately, there's a ton of money made by AT&T on international roaming for calls. It's data that kills you because you don't acknowledge it so much. You know if you make a 10 minute call. But if you open that graphic in that email, how much data did you use? We don't naturally measure those things.

Like I said in an earlier post, I ran up $1100 of roaming charges and most of it was data. I knew with decent accuracy what my calls were going to cost, it was data that caught me out. Even text messages I had a good handle on because it's a charge per message and you can count those very easily... But when every little "Connecting...Checking mail..." spin in mail was costing me a dollar! I'm meant to notice that? I can't actually turn that off without turning on Airplane mode and then the phone is offline. Even set to manually check for mail it does it when you go into Mail. Yes I could have used the timers to keep track of it all. Certainly will next time, but my point is it's not intuitive and obvious to keep track of it that way. You count calls and messages easily. You have no real concept that "I've used a lot of data just now" and constantly checking the usage stats is cumbersome.

I'd like a way to turn off data but leave everything else turned on while roaming! Then I can keep track of it much more accurately. :)

be well

t

coolbreeze
Aug 24, 2007, 11:21 PM
In the Engadget screenshots, the iTunes info tab says Phone Number: n/a. So can't Apple just update their software to look for that. If a phone is unlocked, it will say n/a, and the firmware update will brick the phone...or place a permanent nasty gram message to use an ATT SIM, and will fail to operate until you do so.

Just a thought.?

magpie maniac
Aug 24, 2007, 11:30 PM
Hell, you'd have thought we'd finally cured cancer the way everyone's ranting on and on.

If we took all of this collective hacking wisdom and actually did something useful with it, we'd have a prosperous colony on Mars by now.

And I love the delicious irony of how the iphonesimfree guys will glady provide you with the software...once you've provided your credit card info of course. What? You mean you want to get paid for your work? :eek: I'm astonished. I thought you were just working for free out of the kindness of your hearts. Oh, I guess only AT&T network engineers are supposed to work for nothing.

megfilmworks
Aug 25, 2007, 12:13 AM
This would be great for when I travel to Europe, but T-mobile in the US??? No thanks.
I have had great service with Cingular for years and I not going for a lesser player in the US. Besides, if you get a lot of voicemail, visual voicemail is essential to quick checks of VIPs and family without listening to all the sycophants :)

RBilRamZ
Aug 25, 2007, 01:02 AM
If you don't like the Apple/at&t contract, don't buy the phone. No person or company has any ethical or legal obligation to make their product or services available to everybody for any purpose. You have a multitude of other options. THAT'S YOUR FREEDOM. As far as how *great* it is in Sweden that you get "free" stuff--somebody is paying for it, you just don't see who. It's like saying "my electric car doesn't pollute"--the pollution is just not in your back yard, but somebody is still polluting.

And what's really weird here is that most of you who are proclaiming how great of a development this hack is...are the same one's who would bitch endlessly in these forums if Apple released a phone without, for example, Visual Voice Mail, which you aren't going to get with this hack. "It's crippled!!!!!!! How could they do this??!!" Blah blah blah.

One of the basic tenets of patent and copyright law is that the holder of the rights must exercise them...in other words, if you don't actively go after the unlicensed use of your property, you can lose the legal right to do so later.

Apple and at&t will find a way to defend themselves.

Dare I take a stab ... republican?

cyberone
Aug 25, 2007, 02:14 AM
all it takes is a new firmware of apple to wipe this unlocker of the face of this earth.

DanB91
Aug 25, 2007, 02:21 AM
i wonder how much is gonna be the software to unlock it. theres no reason why it shouldnt be free....
but on the other hand i dont care, b/c when i get an iphone, i want AT&T b/c verizon is crappy out here

Stella
Aug 25, 2007, 04:34 AM
Alternatively, send Apple a message:

Consumer is King. Without the consumer, all companies would be nothing.

If you like the iPhone but dislike Apple's tie-in policy with AT&T:
Buy the iPhone, get your phone unlocked, send Apple a photo of your iPhone ( anonymously, if needed ) with a simple message stating why.

If enough people do this, Apple will get the message and change their policy, even if that means having to pay AT&T a large settlement for breaking their contract.

Show Apple that they must serve the consumer wishes, or they sink.


Please, what a bunch of cry babies. Don't like AT&T, iPhone, Apple... DON'T USE/BUY their products!!!!! Simple as that.

I think Verizon sucks, I think Microsoft sucks, I think Fords suck, I think WalMart sucks, but guess what - I DON'T buy their products!!!

Hate the iPhone, hate ATT - DON'T GET THE IPHONE - ITS NOT FOR YOU!!!!

Don't worry, you will still live. Geez, get the point yet?

iAlan
Aug 25, 2007, 06:17 AM
Still don't know if this means us non-USAians can get an iPhone and get the thing to work on our local networks.

I guess i could wait until the iPhone is launched here (Japan) in Q1 2008.

But can I wait 100+ days....oooh so painfu!

And what's with my Avatar having an iPhone - and he isn't even real - not to mention French!

iAlan
Aug 25, 2007, 06:21 AM
... sycophants...

I had to look that one up!

neverni
Aug 25, 2007, 06:35 AM
Perhaps why you barely use your current cell phone is BECAUSE it can't do near what the iPhone can. I think that's the point of the device. It's a phone AND it does a lot of other stuff and does it well.

Do I have one? No. Why?

I can't justify spending $599 on a phone because I work from home. My graphic design keeps me in front of computer all day with complete access to my Email/Internet/Music on a 23" HD Cinema Display. The iPhone's screen just can't compete with that.


I have the exact same situation plus a Cintiq :)

mccldwll
Aug 25, 2007, 06:53 AM
I don't get it. A lot of people seem to be ignoring one of the main advantages/features of the iPhone--it's not a static device. For several reasons (including hack workarounds, IMO) Apple set up the iPhone as a 24 month subscription with the sale on 24 month subscription accounting. You're not buying a phone, but the equivalent of a 2 year "looseleaf service." You can hack it, or cancel contract (paying $175), or use pickyourplan prepay and decide to drop service, but in all of those cases your iPhone will be stuck without further updates (and possibly completely nonfunctional unless you get a hack). And while I'm sure some hackers will figure out some ways to keep the phone functioning with some of the features, I doubt it will function that well, and it won't have any of the goodies coming along over the remainder of the subscription period. The only thing I really see coming from this hack is that it may allow someone who travels to Europe to pop out their "active" AT&T SIM and pop in a cheap European SIM while there. But it will cost, and probably will void the warranty (and AT&T by then probably will offer a reasonably priced SIM for Europe by then). JMO

mara
Aug 25, 2007, 07:03 AM
This is great! 499 $ comes down to 366 € with the current exchange rate. A friend of mine is visiting NYC next week so maybe I should ask him to buy one for me. Here in Finland most of the iPhones are used at Nokia headquarters at the moment ;)

Oh, and the charges here in Finland are usually something like this:

500 min + 100 sms = 19,90 €
25 Mb of data = 4 €

Unlimited data (using EDGE):
384 kbit/s = 9,80 € per month
512 kbit/s = 14,80 € per month
1M kbit/s = 19,80 € per month

(3G packages are even cheaper: unlimited voice, sms, mms, video calling and data (limited to max 1Mbit speed with HSDPA) totals 49,95 € / month)

LastZion
Aug 25, 2007, 07:37 AM
i have a question:
if i sign up for a cellphone provider but
cancel withint 1 year and pay the ETF will that effect my credit rating?

Nope not at all.

cal6n
Aug 25, 2007, 08:24 AM
Just a thought for the barrack room lawyers amongst us.

I understand that it is legal in the US to unlock your handset and that software for this purpose is excluded from the DCMA. This would seem to imply that the phone's user has "jurisdiction" (for want of a better term) over the conditions that the handset operates under. Given that an unlocked phone is operating entirely legally, how legal would it be for Apple or AT&T to re-lock the phone, by firmware update or otherwise, without the user's consent?

Benjamindaines
Aug 25, 2007, 08:37 AM
Holy craaap, totally snagging one off eBay now. :eek:

For upwards of a thousand dollars... have fun!

poe diddley
Aug 25, 2007, 09:28 AM
after reading a lot of these responses, and several of the news stories that have appeared in the last 24hrs, i can honestly say that the fact that this is getting so much press is probably the best thing about it.
i will not be running out to get an iphone just to unlock it using any of the methods, however it does give me hope for the future.
if so many people are this interested in having an iphone, but don't want to or can't use at&t because of the area they live in, then perhaps apple will begin to understand that dealing solely with at&t wasn't the best plan.
i'm sure there were some incentives in the deal that made it sweet for both parties, but in the end, it will be the consumer that makes or breaks the iphone. from what i've heard and read, people love the phone but aren't so happy about the service.
a lot of people cannot or don't want to use at&t, but they really want an iphone.
i'm sure there's some sort of exclusive deal that at&t and apple have for x number of years, i forget how long i heard it was for (5 years maybe?), but hopefully apple will come up with a solution for all these people.

i for one would love to have an iphone, but verizon is the only reliable carrier in my area. i had at&t when i first moved here, but could only make/receive calls when i walked out to the street. i missed calls on a daily basis, and at&t told me they had no plans of upgrading the towers or coverage, and actually suggested to me that i use another provider.

so i applaud all these people who are hacking the phones for use on other providers, but i will either wait until i see how reliably it works for them, or i'll hold out for the verizon compatible iphone, which will probably not be seen for a very long time, if ever.

jarednt1
Aug 25, 2007, 09:29 AM
Frankly I don’t understand, why everyone is so upset that this phone is locked down to a carrier. Every company on the planet no matter what there business is, tries to provide features that another does not have. This is how competition works.

What would you guys purpose happen? Perhaps the government should FORCE Apple to allow other carriers to carry it.

I don’t like Toyota, Best Buy so I don’t buy there products its that SIMPLE.

bdj21ya
Aug 25, 2007, 09:36 AM
I am always curious when I hear about 'customer dealings' of one mobile provider being better then that of another. Maybe for those individuals that utilize their plan, both voice and/or data, to the maximum and may go over and therefore have a billing issue or the like... I have NEVER encountered a situation that required me to deal with a mobile provider's customer service with any regards other than to sign-up for my initial plan, get my phone and maybe make an in-store monthly bill payment.

I had been with Altell for about 5 years before moving on to T-Mobile for the past 4 years and outside of going to a local altell or t-mob shop to make a monthly bill payment that would have been late had I put it in the mail or to stop by the shop every 6 months or so to see the new phones that might be out, I have had virtually no contact with either company's customer service regarding any issues to be resovled in order to judge one way or the other how great or bad their customer service is. I'd image AT&T would be the same way, and that is, as long as I have no discrepancy with billing (ie. utilizing my plan both voice and/or data to the maximum and go over and therefore have a billing issue), I doubt if I'll ever need an AT&T customer service rep, especially now that billing is no longer 300 pages, except to see the iPhone 2 when it comes out or change to a higher rate $$$ plan with more minutes.

Complaining to customer service about coverage and EDGE is a non issue, by that I mean, I have read the posts and hear the news and read the articles concerning EDGE and phone coverage so I'm not walking into something blind. Sure I can call AT&T to tell them I wish phone coverage was better in my area or data transfer speeds were faster but with all respect, I could have done the same with Altell and T-Mobile regarding coverage and/or data plans.

As I said, I am curious about what problems cropped up for other people (such as the poster I quoted - bdj21ya or others with similar experiences) that required customer service and when they got bad customer service, what happened. I'd like to know, just so I know what may be in store for me if I get an iPhone and switch from T-Mobile to AT&T (not going to use a hack software just to maintain a T-Mobile account)? - thanks

But mightn't you be a tad bit frustrated if, when you called to increase your minutes, they extended your contract without even mentioning it? Moreover, since such a thing isn't listed on any of the correspondence they send you, you may not find out about the change until more than a year later when you went to cancel the contract?

I'm sorry, but there's a simple fact here. Assuming you believe that a company that by policy extends contracts with it's customers without consent or notice is evil. AT&T is evil. T-mobile does not do this, and therefore I think them if anything, a bit less evil, possibly even a force for good.

Why does AT&T do this? I assume they have some clause in the original contract which covers contract extensions (which wouldn't hold up in court because of the difference in bargaining power between the parties and the abuse it smacks of without notifying customers of this policy). But more importantly, there is the obvious reason why they do it. Because most customer won't go through the crap they have to go through to get this contract extension later removed.

When they did it to us, I called them 5 times before they finally changed it back. Interestingly, on each call, they told me they were changing it right then, however, every time I would call back (with days in between) it would still list the extended date as the date the contract would end. This indicates to me that either AT&T really skimps on employee training, or on wages so they are unable to hire competent individuals, OR that they have a policy in place for employees to "forget" little details like actually changing the date back until the customer has called a number of times.

poe diddley
Aug 25, 2007, 09:48 AM
Frankly I don’t understand, why everyone is so upset that this phone is locked down to a carrier. Every company on the planet no matter what there business is, tries to provide features that another does not have. This is how competition works.

What would you guys purpose happen? Perhaps the government should FORCE Apple to allow other carriers to carry it.

I don’t like Toyota, Best Buy so I don’t buy there products its that SIMPLE.



well for me it's simple. i really really really want an iphone-i've wanted since well before they came out.. but at&t blows in my area. it's terrible. the coverage on my street is literally nonexistant. i had an at&t when i moved here, but had to switch to verizon just so i could make and get calls at my house.
and i would literally NOT ever purchase whatever phone "that does everything the iphone does" that verizon or whoever comes out with. i want the real deal apple. but i cannot use at&t.
good enough reason?
i don't expect apple or at&t to really care or do anything about it, i just hope that in the future the iphone becomes available to other carriers so that it might be possible for me to get one.

cameronjpu
Aug 25, 2007, 10:25 AM
Just a thought for the barrack room lawyers amongst us.

I understand that it is legal in the US to unlock your handset and that software for this purpose is excluded from the DCMA. This would seem to imply that the phone's user has "jurisdiction" (for want of a better term) over the conditions that the handset operates under. Given that an unlocked phone is operating entirely legally, how legal would it be for Apple or AT&T to re-lock the phone, by firmware update or otherwise, without the user's consent?

Look at it this way - no one is forcing the user to update the phone and accepting Apple's new software. If they do choose to accept Apple's new software, the user cannot complain that the voluntary free update that they themselves chose to apply happens to contain as one of its components software that broke a program not part of Apple's device.

DanB91
Aug 25, 2007, 10:35 AM
Look at it this way - no one is forcing the user to update the phone and accepting Apple's new software. If they do choose to accept Apple's new software, the user cannot complain that the voluntary free update that they themselves chose to apply happens to contain as one of its components software that broke a program not part of Apple's device.

well if apple eventually sues them, they will prob go to court, and it will last for months arguing about this and that. its arguable that this is legal, its also arguable that it is illegal. only the supreme court can truely decide that

cameronjpu
Aug 25, 2007, 10:43 AM
well if apple eventually sues them, they will prob go to court, and it will last for months arguing about this and that. its arguable that this is legal, its also arguable that it is illegal. only the supreme court can truely decide that

A simple popup warning saying that "this update may cause third party software to malfunction. Do not proceed if your iPhone contains third party software" seems like it would get around any legality issue.

The way I think Apple will get around this is the same way MS tried to do it with Windows updates - those who want the updates have to have a valid software system. There are lots of "must have" features that Apple could be planning for the iPhone, so if you hack yours and want to keep using it, you don't get those updates. Which definitely will suck.

Frankly, I think the fact that MS has never been taken to court over the WGA process tells me that Apple won't be either.

rjwill246
Aug 25, 2007, 11:11 AM
They have received a midnight cease and desist from ATT's lawyers...
Waiting...

gnasher729
Aug 25, 2007, 11:36 AM
There is a law called the Digital Millienium Copyright Act that was signed into law and it states that:

You are completely misunderstanding this law. It is about circumventing technical obstacles in order to commit copyright infringement. Whose copyright is infringed here? To be more precise: An absolute necessity for any copyright infringement is _copying_. What exactly is copied here? If nothing is copied, copyright law doesn't apply, and DMCA doesn't apply.

gnasher729
Aug 25, 2007, 11:39 AM
Why is Edge fees ridiculous? No other carries provides unlimited data access for a smart phone for under $40/month. $20/month is a pretty good deal in comparison.

Edge fees while you are in the USA are very reasonable. Edge fees when you leave the USA are beyond ridiculous. They are so ridiculous, I would suggest that you turn your iPhone off when you leave the USA.

maverick808
Aug 25, 2007, 11:42 AM
Edge fees while you are in the USA are very reasonable. Edge fees when you leave the USA are beyond ridiculous. They are so ridiculous, I would suggest that you turn your iPhone off when you leave the USA.

Actually, EDGE fees in many countries outside the USA are reasonable. For example, in the UK t-mobile do unlimited data for Ģ7.50 a month (that's less than $15). It's roaming charges that are ridiculous. That is, if I use my phone in the UK then I pay very little for data. However, if I take my phone to the USA and use it for data there then the charges will be astronomical. Same for you guys in the USA coming to the UK.

It's the roaming data charges that are high.

Skystar
Aug 25, 2007, 11:54 AM
They have received a midnight cease and desist from ATT's lawyers...
Waiting...

On the blog it now says they will be issuing a press release in the next few hours. ATT probably scared them bigtime..

bdj21ya
Aug 25, 2007, 11:56 AM
I don't get it. A lot of people seem to be ignoring one of the main advantages/features of the iPhone--it's not a static device. For several reasons (including hack workarounds, IMO) Apple set up the iPhone as a 24 month subscription with the sale on 24 month subscription accounting. You're not buying a phone, but the equivalent of a 2 year "looseleaf service." You can hack it, or cancel contract (paying $175), or use pickyourplan prepay and decide to drop service, but in all of those cases your iPhone will be stuck without further updates (and possibly completely nonfunctional unless you get a hack). And while I'm sure some hackers will figure out some ways to keep the phone functioning with some of the features, I doubt it will function that well, and it won't have any of the goodies coming along over the remainder of the subscription period. The only thing I really see coming from this hack is that it may allow someone who travels to Europe to pop out their "active" AT&T SIM and pop in a cheap European SIM while there. But it will cost, and probably will void the warranty (and AT&T by then probably will offer a reasonably priced SIM for Europe by then). JMO

You missed the part where they said that restoring the phone didn't break the hack. Also, I've hacked my phone several times and still receive updates without problems. At least for now (which doesn't mean too much considering how new this all still is), Apple hasn't done anything to prevent you from hacking the phone again after applying new updates. We'll see though!

Uragon
Aug 25, 2007, 12:00 PM
*drools*

.......
I predict disaster for my finances, due to iPhone-ness. I may have to tell the girlfriend to hide my cards. :o

That's a great idea, especially if your girlfriend is thinking the same, to use you credit card for her iPhone..:D

bdj21ya
Aug 25, 2007, 12:15 PM
Actually, EDGE fees in many countries outside the USA are reasonable. For example, in the UK t-mobile do unlimited data for Ģ7.50 a month (that's less than $15). It's roaming charges that are ridiculous. That is, if I use my phone in the UK then I pay very little for data. However, if I take my phone to the USA and use it for data there then the charges will be astronomical. Same for you guys in the USA coming to the UK.

It's the roaming data charges that are high.

I think that's actually the same thing he was saying, just without stating explicitly that he meant roaming EDGE.

liketom
Aug 25, 2007, 12:59 PM
all this waiting for the release is driving me nuts - so i've decided to spend the night with Jack Bauer and watch back to back episodes :D i wonder if i finish the whole of series 6 before the release comes ?

steve_hill4
Aug 25, 2007, 12:59 PM
From the screenshots in the original Engadget article, can anyone explain why "Network" is spelt wrong (Netwerk)?

gnasher729
Aug 25, 2007, 01:04 PM
Just a thought for the barrack room lawyers amongst us.

I understand that it is legal in the US to unlock your handset and that software for this purpose is excluded from the DCMA. This would seem to imply that the phone's user has "jurisdiction" (for want of a better term) over the conditions that the handset operates under. Given that an unlocked phone is operating entirely legally, how legal would it be for Apple or AT&T to re-lock the phone, by firmware update or otherwise, without the user's consent?

I think updates cannot be applied without the user's consent. Like MacOS X Software Update; you can always refuse to update your software. On the other hand, Apple's updates for the iPhones will likely install exactly the same software on every iPhone, and they are under no obligation to keep the unlocking software intact.

Benjamindaines
Aug 25, 2007, 02:44 PM
From the screenshots in the original Engadget article, can anyone explain why "Network" is spelt wrong (Netwerk)?

If I remember correctly that's just the name of their WiFi network.

rjwill246
Aug 25, 2007, 03:11 PM
If I remember correctly that's just the name of their WiFi network.

That is their spelling of their own netwerk :D