Afghans refusing to kick U.S. balls

[TheAnswer]

From the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6964564.stm): 'Blasphemous' balls anger Afghans

A demonstration has been held in south- east Afghanistan accusing US troops of insulting Islam after they distributed footballs bearing the name of Allah.

The balls showed the Saudi Arabian flag which features the Koranic declaration of faith.

The US military said the idea had been to give something for Afghan children to enjoy and they did not realise it would cause offence.

The footballs were dropped from a helicopter in Khost province.

Some displayed flags from countries all over the world, including Saudi Arabia, which features the shahada, one of the five pillars of Islam - the declaration of faith.

The words, which include the name of Allah, are revered, and Muslims are very sensitive about where and how they can be used.

Saudi Arabia has complained to the World Cup's ruling body in the past about the use of its flag on footballs.

Mullahs in Afghanistan criticised the US forces for their insensitivity, and around 100 people held a demonstration in Khost.

Afghan MP Mirwais Yasini said: "To have a verse of the Koran on something you kick with your foot would be an insult in any Muslim country around the world."

A spokeswoman for the US forces in Afghanistan said they made "significant efforts to work with local leaders, mullahs and elders to respect their culture" and distributing the footballs was an effort to give a gift the Afghan children would enjoy.

"Unfortunately," she added, "there was something on those footballs we didn't immediately understand to be offensive and we regret that as we do not want to offend."

You'd think that we'd have learned this simple lesson by now.

[skunk]

I wonder if they were made of pigskin, too?

[mactastic]

Definitely one of the better thread titles in recent memory. :p

Kinda sad that even when we try to be nice, it's still insulting.

[ham_man]

Why can't we just give them a normal ball? Is that so hard?

Note to US military: Go to Walmart. Buy a ball. Give it to Afghani kids. Problem solved. Sheesh.

[SMM]

If we put a picture of Dub on them, you would not be able to keep them in stock.

[solvs]

God, can't we do anything right? Sheesh.

[zap2]

God.....


Not when it comes to that subject


(People get upset FAR to easily about religion)

[solvs]

Not when it comes to that subject

Pun was intended.

[takao]

the irony is very likely gonna be that those footballs have (very likely) been made in pakistan
pakistan is the big center for football manufactures because of the cheap labour
only the real expensive ones are made around here and i doubt they dropped some fancy hightech adidas balls

[Queso]

When you think about it, kicking the symbol of any nation isn't exactly a tribute, but once again the only people complaining are the old men telling everyone else what to think. The Sky Fairy is not offended because the Sky Fairy does not exist. Stupid sodding people and their stupid sodding religious bullcrap!!

It's a ball!! Kick the damn thing!!

[ham_man]

When you think about it, kicking the symbol of any nation isn't exactly a tribute, but once again the only people complaining are the old men telling everyone else what to think. The Sky Fairy is not offended because the Sky Fairy does not exist. Stupid sodding people and their stupid sodding religious bullcrap!!

It's a ball!! Kick the damn thing!!
Wow. And people attack Christians for being intolerant?

[Queso]

Wow. And people attack Christians for being intolerant?
Probably because a sizeable percentage of Christians ARE intolerant. The difference here is that I'm expressing an opinion. If I were attempting to ban religion or punish the religious because of my beliefs you would have a point. As it stands though, I'm not and you don't.

[dswoodley]

I find the spokesperson's comment completely inadequate. How on earth could they not know that was going to be a problem?

[Swarmlord]

This is the same flag that has at its center a pair of crossed swords. I wonder which would offend God more, being associated with religion by the sword or a game ball.

[ham_man]

Probably because a sizeable percentage of Christians ARE intolerant. The difference here is that I'm expressing an opinion. If I were attempting to ban religion or punish the religious because of my beliefs you would have a point. As it stands though, I'm not and you don't.
You're expressing an opinion? What you are doing is presenting completely ungrounded facts ("a sizeable percentage of Christians ARE intolerant")...

And Swarmlord, Saudi Arabia having swords on their flag doesn't come as much of a surprise to me, considering the fact that the first few years of Islam's existence were marked by Muhammed ravaging the Arabian desert with an army of followers. I doubt many Muslims would find offense in that. Kicking a ball with a passage from a Koran on it with their dirty feet (remember, they bath their feet before they go into a mosque, so they are obviously keen on not defiling holy things with uncleen feet) would be unwelcome in the Islamic community. I mean, I wouldn't kick a ball with a picture of Jesus on it, and neither would you.

[Swarmlord]

Your expressing an opinion? What you are doing is presenting completely ungrounded facts ("a sizeable percentage of Christians ARE intolerant")...

And Swarmlord, Saudi Arabia having swords on their flag doesn't come as much of a surprise to me, considering the fact that the first few years of Islam's existence were marked by Muhammed ravaging the Arabian desert with an army of followers. I doubt many Muslims would find offense in that. Kicking a ball with a passage from a Koran on it with their dirty feet (remember, they bath their feet before they go into a mosque, so they are obviously keen on not defiling holy things with uncleen feet) would be unwelcome in the Islamic community. I mean, I wouldn't kick a ball with a picture of Jesus on it, and neither would you.

I'm well aware of Saudi's flag and the symbolism. I wonder how they keep the elements from soiling it while it's flapping in the breeze.

[skunk]

I wonder how they keep the elements from soiling it while it's flapping in the breeze.Now that really is a silly rejoinder.

[TheAnswer]

Hmmm...something doesn't add up here:

This is the same flag that has at its center a pair of crossed swords.

I'm well aware of Saudi's flag and the symbolism.

83483

[dswoodley]

Hmmm...something doesn't add up here:

83483

Maybe Swarm is thinking of the Jolly Roger? I make that mistake a lot. I used to call GB's flag the Yukon Jack.

[Queso]

Your expressing an opinion? What you are doing is presenting completely ungrounded facts ("a sizeable percentage of Christians ARE intolerant")...
Meanwhile, back on planet Earth.....

[dswoodley]

Meanwhile, back on planet Earth.....

i notice you didn't put up any facts to dispute ham...or rather add any facts that support you.

[Santa Rosa]

Thats gonna make a pretty tasty game of footy, to be honest anythings better than watching Man Utd at the moment :(

[Wild-Bill]

Note to US military: Go to Walmart. Buy a ball. Give it to Afghani kids. Problem solved. Sheesh.

You're kidding, right???

Actually, it is: military contracts a company (preferably a subsidiary of Haliburton) and purchases said footballs at 15x their retail value. :p

Contractors 1 Taxpayers 0

[TheAnswer]

Maybe Swarm is thinking of the Jolly Roger

One would hope that someone who supposedly lived in the region for a number of years wouldn't be prone to such a mistake.

[nbs2]

When you think about it, kicking the symbol of any nation isn't exactly a tribute, but once again the only people complaining are the old men telling everyone else what to think. The Sky Fairy is not offended because the Sky Fairy does not exist. Stupid sodding people and their stupid sodding religious bullcrap!!

It's a ball!! Kick the damn thing!!

Ah yes. And this would be a great message to build community relations on. :rolleyes:

A major problem that we have faced in this war, as compared to the European liberation in WWII and WWI, is that we have little cultural commons with these folks. So, what happens? We decide that our cultural norms are superior and export it to them. We believe the "Sky Fairy" doesn't exist, so it doesn't exist, cultural norms be damned. The right gets it wrong when they export Christian beliefs, the left gets it wrong when it exports lack of belief.

And, your tone at the end indicates command, not opinion. So, yes, you are attacking them for their beliefs.

[Queso]

i notice you didn't put up any facts to dispute ham...or rather add any facts that support you.
Oh sorry. I hereby declare my posts as sacred text.

There you go. Now magically I don't need facts. It's automatically true with no proof required :rolleyes:

Or rather, how about this. Did I say ALL? Did I say a MAJORITY? No. Just as my previous post was branded intolerant for expressing an opinion, that post was suddenly latched upon for quoting a vague reference to percentage.

And rather than taking a contrarian stance for the sake of argument, how about admitting you know what I posted was right? A sizeable percentage of Christians ARE intolerant. As are a sizeable percentage of Muslims for that matter.

[dswoodley]

A sizeable percentage of Christians ARE intolerant. As are a sizeable percentage of Muslims for that matter.

And what exactly is the basis of that statement? Intolerant against what? whom? Intolerant by what definition? To what degree? What's your source? reference?

[Queso]

Ah yes. And this would be a great message to build community relations on. :rolleyes:

A major problem that we have faced in this war, as compared to the European liberation in WWII and WWI, is that we have little cultural commons with these folks. So, what happens? We decide that our cultural norms are superior and export it to them. We believe the "Sky Fairy" doesn't exist, so it doesn't exist, cultural norms be damned. The right gets it wrong when they export Christian beliefs, the left gets it wrong when it exports lack of belief.

And, your tone at the end indicates command, not opinion. So, yes, you are attacking them for their beliefs.
The football displays the flag of Saudi Arabia, one of the teams that competed in the 2006 World Cup Finals. Every country that competed is represented on that ball. If Saudi Arabia did not want their flag on that ball, they should have suggested an alternative symbol to use at the time. They didn't.

So as far as I'm concerned, the incompetent Al-Saud run regime in Saudi is at fault for this, and a bunch of poverty stricken desert folks are now going to be manipulated into protesting in the name of some centuries old nonsense that given a decent education most of them would probably renounce, just like most of us do in the developed world.

Meanwhile, what do the kids do eh? Sit in the Mosque learning their Korans I suppose :rolleyes:

[Queso]

And what exactly is the basis of that statement? Intolerant against what? whom? Intolerant by what definition? To what degree? What's your source? reference?
1) Other religions
2) Groups within society who act against laws in the Holy Bullcrap

As for my sources, who needs evidence? You lot should be well accustomed to just accepting what is stated as fact without proof. You do it everyday by buying into the god rubbish. Just have a bit of faith. My words are totally true.

[dswoodley]

1) Other religions
2) Groups within society who act against laws in the Holy Bullcrap

As for my sources, who needs evidence? You lot should be well accustomed to just accepting what is stated as fact without proof. You do it everyday by buying into the god rubbish. Just have a bit of faith. My words are totally true.

You can't defend your own deliberately inflammatory statement, so you distort into something else?

[skunk]

in the name of some centuries old nonsense that given a decent education most of them would probably renounce, just like most of us do in the developed world.The difference of course being that renouncing that "centuries old nonsense" is punishable by death. Apostasy is not too well regarded in the Muslim world.

[Queso]

You can't defend your own deliberately inflammatory statement, so you distort into something else?
Quit the contrary tone. You know as well as I do that what I say is right.

[dswoodley]

Quit the contrary tone. You know as well as I do that what I say is right.

To quote someone on this thread

Meanwhile, back on planet Earth..... :cool:

[skunk]

Quit the contrary tone. You know as well as I do that what I say is right.Your horse is getting rather high. What's he smoking? :rolleyes:

[dswoodley]

Your horse is getting rather high. What's he smoking? :rolleyes:

In my younger days I would have asked for some. Now that I'm a Christian, I must denounce him as Satan and wish him burned at the stake - we're intolerant don't you know? (most of us anyway)

[Queso]

The difference of course being that renouncing that "centuries old nonsense" is punishable by death. Apostasy is not too well regarded in the Muslim world.
Under the current circumstances yes. Maybe concentrating on something else might get the next generation to lighten up a bit. Hence the footballs I suppose.

As I originally posted, that ball has flags on it. It represents nations, countries that the people donating the balls were obviously hoping the children would feel closer to by seeing the flags and seeing that there is a wider world out there. Instead, just because one represented flag contains a bit of text which is supposed to be "special", the whole thing is going to turn into a riot fest. Once again, religion will poison the point of the exercise. As religion loves to do.

Your horse is getting rather high. What's he smoking? :rolleyes:
Are you suggesting that there are not a large enough number of intolerant Christians to be considered a sizeable percentage? What with all those televangelists, Jesus camps, Pentecostal churches and their talk of Sodomites, matthew24 and his Islam is Satan, etc.? Add up all the nutters and it starts building into quite a large number.

[skunk]

In my younger days I would have asked for some. Now that I'm a Christian, I must denounce him as Satan and wish him burned at the stake - we're intolerant don't you know? (most of us anyway)So I've heard, but I believe the stake bit is optional.

[dswoodley]

So I've heard, but I believe the stake bit is optional.

No, no, the stake makes it humane redemption, instead of violent revenge.

[skunk]

As I originally posted, that ball has flags on it. It represents nations, countries that the people donating the balls were obviously hoping the children would feel closer to by seeing the flags and seeing that there is a wider world out there.It should not however be beyond the wit of the donor to realise that plain, unbranded footballs would have avoided any such potential pitfalls.

[Queso]

It should not however be beyond the wit of the donor to realise that plain, unbranded footballs would have avoided any such potential pitfalls.
Maybe, but you're assuming the person making the decision even saw the balls. "Footballs decorated with flags of the world" pretty much sums up how I would describe them. If the supplier touted them as such to the donor, how could they be expected to know which flags were on there, let alone what cultural significance anything on those flags might have?

Meanwhile, the supplier will of course still be paid....

[solvs]

If Saudi Arabia did not want their flag on that ball, they should have suggested an alternative symbol to use at the time. They didn't.
Well... they did complain about it:

Saudi Arabia has complained to the World Cup's ruling body in the past about the use of its flag on footballs.
We should have known better, but this is just another symptom of the problems we're having, many of which we seem to be exacerbating.

[Stampyhead]

A sizeable percentage of Christians ARE intolerant.

I disagree with you. I think a sizable percentage of Christians is NOT intolerant. My statement is no more a fact than yours is, as neither of us knows most Christians and cannot give proof of what they do or think or feel. The difference is that your statement seems to be based on a dislike for or a bias toward Christians, and is therefore intolerant.

[Queso]

I disagree with you. I think a sizable percentage of Christians is NOT intolerant. My statement is no more a fact than yours is, as neither of us knows most Christians and cannot give proof of what they do or think or feel.
Your statement and mine are not contradictory.

[imac/cheese]

I think this article is an example of someone trying to make the US military look stupid and insensitive. They purchased balls that were endorsed by the World Cup. Why would they ever suspect that the balls would be offensive to anyone? They were trying to do something good for the kids that have been affected by this war and they are made to look like insensitive clods. If the world cup knew about htis maybe they should change their balls.

I did really enjoy the title of this thread. Thank you.

[imac/cheese]

1) Other religions
2) Groups within society who act against laws in the Holy Bullcrap

As for my sources, who needs evidence? You lot should be well accustomed to just accepting what is stated as fact without proof. You do it everyday by buying into the god rubbish. Just have a bit of faith. My words are totally true.

It seems that you are more intoleratant to other religions than any Christians I personally know.

Are you suggesting that there are not a large enough number of intolerant Christians to be considered a sizeable percentage? What with all those televangelists, Jesus camps, Pentecostal churches and their talk of Sodomites, matthew24 and his Islam is Satan, etc.? Add up all the nutters and it starts building into quite a large number.

matthew24 refering to Islam as Satan is really no different than you refering to all people who follow any god as delusional and crazy. Both of you are simply stating what you believe in an inflammatory and intolerant manner.

[Queso]

I think this article is an example of someone trying to make the US military look stupid and insensitive. They purchased balls that were endorsed by the World Cup. Why would they ever suspect that the balls would be offensive to anyone? They were trying to do something good for the kids that have been affected by this war and they are made to look like insensitive clods. If the world cup knew about htis maybe they should change their balls.
This is basically my point. Saudi Arabia have complained that their flag is on the ball, but have never offered an alternative symbol to use in its place. Arab football supporters have frequently said that their national teams would be real players on the world stage if only religion and politics would let them get on with it, and here we are again proving them right. When someone kicks that ball they are not kicking the call to prayer, they are kicking the flag of Saudi Arabia, along with the flags of other footballing nations. The symbolism is not the same to anyone of sound mind.

matthew24 refering to Islam as Satan is really no different than you refering to all people who follow any god as delusional and crazy. Both of you are simply stating what you believe in an inflammatory and intolerant manner.
Please point out where I say ALL. Please point out where I even say a MAJORITY. Very touchy today you religious types, aren't you?

As to what I believe, I simply state that I refuse to believe in something for which there is absolutely no evidence. Not one ounce. That's intolerance?

[imac/cheese]

Please point out where I say ALL. Please point out where I even say a MAJORITY. Very touchy today you religious types, aren't you?

As to what I believe, I simply state that I refuse to believe in something for which there is absolutely no evidence. Not one ounce. That's intolerance?

How about this one? link (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=327874)

Originally Posted by dynamicv:
And people wonder why I completely deride religion as nothing more than population control for the deluded

[Queso]

How about this one? link (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=327874)
Oh I see. I thought you meant I'd said ALL christians were intolerant, but that's not what you meant at all.

Sorry, but I stand by that as I do genuinely think the religious are all deluded. I don't see how that is me being intolerant though. It's not like I'm trying to prevent you from wasting your time worshipping, or even attempting to discriminate against you for doing it. As I've said in plenty of other threads, you're all free to follow whatever fantasy gets you through the day. It's only when it crosses the line into hurting the lives of others that I get upset about it.

As with these footballs. Do you think the kids noticed the text on the balls and refused to play with them, or that the local "community leaders" made the decision for them based on their own dogma?

[imac/cheese]

Oh I see. I thought you meant I'd said ALL christians were intolerant, but that's not what you meant at all.

Sorry, but I stand by that as I do genuinely think the religious are all deluded. I don't see how that is me being intolerant though. It's not like I'm trying to prevent you from wasting your time worshipping, or even attempting to discriminate against you for doing it. As I've said in plenty of other threads, you're all free to follow whatever fantasy gets you through the day. It's only when it crosses the line into hurting the lives of others that I get upset about it.

As with these footballs. Do you think the kids noticed the text on the balls and refused to play with them, or that the local "community leaders" made the decision for them based on their own dogma?

You have stated in numerous posts in various threads that we religious folk can believe whatever we want as long as we don't try to force our beliefs on you or others. That is a tolerant belief. You have also, however, posted many times in rather inflammatory ways how deluded, stupid, and foolish religious people are and how we are force-fed our religion by people trying to control us. You have even insulted the God we believe in with childish names. That is not an example of tolerant behavior

You have called matthew24 an intolerant Christian because he stated that Islam was created by Satan. Is it any less tolerant to state that religious people are deluded, foolish, and stupid?

From what I have seen in these forums, most (not all) of the Christian posters seem to be rather tolerant of the beliefs of others but there are several athiests including you that seem to feel it is their duty to mock the religious at every opportunity.

[mactastic]

To be fair, we've also had more than a couple of Christians mock atheists at every opportunity. I can't count the number of times I've been told that I cannot possibly have any basis for my morality since I don't believe in God.

[imac/cheese]

To be fair, we've also had more than a couple of Christians mock atheists at every opportunity. I can't count the number of times I've been told that I cannot possibly have any basis for my morality since I don't believe in God.

I have only been here for a couple months, and I have seen a few Christians be rather aggressive, but most are not. Those that are aggressive do not seem to be regular posters. The numerous Christians that are regular posters do not mock athiests.

[skunk]

I can't count the number of times I've been told that I cannot possibly have any basis for my morality since I don't believe in God.It's not your atheism, it's the fact that you're an architect.

[Queso]

You have stated in numerous posts in various threads that we religious folk can believe whatever we want as long as we don't try to force our beliefs on you or others. That is a tolerant belief. You have also, however, posted many times in rather inflammatory ways how deluded, stupid, and foolish religious people are and how we are force-fed our religion by people trying to control us.
I have also read religious folk on here state biblical nonsense as The Truth™. That I find offensive, since there is nothing to indicate it as such.
You have even insulted the God we believe in with childish names. That is not an example of tolerant behavior
I can't insult your god, because he/she isn't there to insult. I don't mean that as disrespectful to you, but to give you an idea of where I'm coming from.
You have called matthew24 an intolerant Christian because he stated that Islam was created by Satan. Is it any less tolerant to state that religious people are deluded, foolish, and stupid?
I have never called religious people stupid. Deluded and misled yes. Victims of a mass con yes. But not stupid. Even the cleverest minds can be fooled into believing nonsense, especially when it's force fed to you for most of your life. As for matthew24, I'm sorry I brought him up now, since the mere mention of that moniker seems to inflame.
From what I have seen in these forums, most (not all) of the Christian posters seem to be rather tolerant of the beliefs of others but there are several athiests including you that seem to feel it is their duty to mock the religious at every opportunity.
That's just an issue of perspective. We notice the views differing from our own more. My experience has been that it goes both ways, or even that the religious ones get a little preachy on the morality front without even realising it. I won't say all do it, because all don't. I won't even say a majority do it, because that would also be untrue. But some do.

Anyway, weren't we talking about footballs?

[imac/cheese]

I have never called religious people stupid. Deluded and misled yes. Victims of a mass con yes. But not stupid. Even the cleverest minds can be fooled into believing nonsense, especially when it's force fed to you for most of your life.

Originally Posted by dynamicv:
When you think about it, kicking the symbol of any nation isn't exactly a tribute, but once again the only people complaining are the old men telling everyone else what to think. The Sky Fairy is not offended because the Sky Fairy does not exist. Stupid sodding people and their stupid sodding religious bullcrap!!

I believe you called these people stupid because their religious beliefs. And since I am not that familiar with British slang I had to use the urban dictionary to look up sodding. It makes this even more of a rant.

That sure seems intolerant to me.

[Queso]

I believe you called these people stupid because their religious beliefs. And since I am not that familiar with British slang I had to use the urban dictionary to look up sodding. It makes this even more of a rant.
If it appears I'm ranting I'm not being entirely serious. However, religion is very much stupid sodding bullcrap :p

Especially when it just gets in the way of youngsters having harmless fun and getting exercise.

[mactastic]

It's not your atheism, it's the fact that you're an architect.
Ah right. It's architects, not atheists, that have no morality.

[skunk]

Ah right. It's architects, not atheists, that have no morality.'Sright. Ask Ayn Rand. :p

[solvs]

I wasn't really paying attention, but just noticed he's said sizable. I'd agree with that. I don't agree with the "stupid" nor the "sodding", not that I blame people for feeling that way sometimes. Maybe we could tone it down a bit out of respect for those of us who aren't illogical nutters. :)

Though for those who've only been here a few months, it's been worse, and the fundies have made the more rational among us look bad, even if we argue with them as much, or even more than, the rest of you heathens. :p



Oh, and I don't think god is what you think it is.