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Gus
Aug 11, 2003, 01:48 AM
Ok, it's been a long time now since AE was introduced into the product line. Every Mac has it except for the iBook, and this just seems a little odd to me. I know that putting it into the iBook requires a redesign of the innards because it uses a mini-PCI interface rather then the older PCMCIA style interface, but as Apple's consumer lne laptop, and one of its best-selling products quarter to quarter, it seems a bit strange that it is the only non-AE product. Has anyone seen or heard any rumors about an iBook update that at least includes this update. This isn't a complaint really, because I have a fairly current iBook and don't plan on getting a new one anytime soon, but as an Apple fan and rumor-monger, it just seems odd.

Regards,
Gus

shadowfax
Aug 11, 2003, 02:34 AM
i didn't know that iMacs had AE already. i missed the bus on that one. but at any rate, take comfort: the iBook is not alone. the Powerbook 15" is AE-Less as well.

tazo
Aug 11, 2003, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by Gus
Ok, it's been a long time now since AE was introduced into the product line. Every Mac has it except for the iBook, and this just seems a little odd to me. I know that putting it into the iBook requires a redesign of the innards because it uses a mini-PCI interface rather then the older PCMCIA style interface, but as Apple's consumer lne laptop, and one of its best-selling products quarter to quarter, it seems a bit strange that it is the only non-AE product. Has anyone seen or heard any rumors about an iBook update that at least includes this update. This isn't a complaint really, because I have a fairly current iBook and don't plan on getting a new one anytime soon, but as an Apple fan and rumor-monger, it just seems odd.

Regards,
Gus
u answered your own question. most consumers will never have a need for 802.11g, which is why it keeps it out of its consumer lines. There is no AE in the TiBook because Apple is lazy to update ;) :p

MacBoyX
Aug 11, 2003, 07:25 AM
Originally posted by Gus
Ok, it's been a long time now since AE was introduced into the product line. Every Mac has it except for the iBook, and this just seems a little odd to me. I know that putting it into the iBook requires a redesign of the innards because it uses a mini-PCI interface rather then the older PCMCIA style interface, but as Apple's consumer lne laptop, and one of its best-selling products quarter to quarter, it seems a bit strange that it is the only non-AE product. Has anyone seen or heard any rumors about an iBook update that at least includes this update. This isn't a complaint really, because I have a fairly current iBook and don't plan on getting a new one anytime soon, but as an Apple fan and rumor-monger, it just seems odd.

Regards,
Gus

Gus,

The iBook is not the only Mac without AE... no iMac has it yet, nor the 15" PB.

I am a big iBook fan as most on these forums can attest but I see no reason for my iBook to have AE.. first of all I never saturate an 802.11b connection. My broadband connection is 800Mbps and my AirPort probably on a good day is running at 1Mbps (remember that just because AE can get 54Mbps and AirPort can get 11Mbps they rarely do.) so I am hardly running slower than my cable connection. I know that it's a pain for copying large files over a network but it's a price to pay for the freedome wireless allows you. Even if my iBook got AE I am not paying to upgrade my wireless router to AE.

MacBoyX

jxyama
Aug 11, 2003, 07:36 AM
highest spec iMac (1 GHz) is AE ready...

otherwise, as stated before, it's 15" Ti and iBook that aren't...

since wireless-g isn't that widespread, i don't really see why apple would want to make ibook AE ready. it probably won't cost them any money, but it will make 12 pb look like a ripoff so prices will probably have to rise somewhere...

junior
Aug 11, 2003, 08:38 AM
I don't know why people say something 'doesn't need' a certain technology.
I don't know about you guys, but I would like to keep my bran new mac for at least a good 2 to 3 years. So in the meantime, I would like to get as much technology as possible crammed into the latest mac on offer. Especially when this wireless -g technology is something Apple is trying to popularise. They were after all the first to implement this standard into there products. There ain't nothing bad about having faster connection over the network and/or the internet. That goes for pros AND consumers.

shadowfax
Aug 11, 2003, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by junior
I don't know why people say something 'doesn't need' a certain technology.
I don't know about you guys, but I would like to keep my bran new mac for at least a good 2 to 3 years. So in the meantime, I would like to get as much technology as possible crammed into the latest mac on offer. Especially when this wireless -g technology is something Apple is trying to popularise. They were after all the first to implement this standard into there products. There ain't nothing bad about having faster connection over the network and/or the internet. That goes for pros AND consumers. well, it doesn't "need" it per se. it would be good, helpful, useful, but ultimately, 802.11g is not necessary for the average user; it's not significantly faster than 802.11b. it's less than 5 times the bandwidth, while the 802.11b has more bandwidth than your internet connection will have in the next 3-5 years, probably. if you want to talk about LAN transfers, any major transfer is going to be deathly long on either one. for those, it's much more practical to use wired connections.

in conclusion, there is nothing bad about AE, but there's not enough inferior about airport to justify a "need" to migrate the iBook line to them. in my opinion.

jxyama
Aug 11, 2003, 09:45 AM
like shadowfax wrote above, it's more about the "need" of the target customers. it would be nice, of course, for every machine to have the maxed out specs, not just AE vs. AEX. apple has to weigh the R&D cost for a new mobo for AEX (which could be next to nothing... just using 12" PB mobo) and consequently, potential price increases in the ibook vs. the demand for such technology by the target consumers and how many of them will be willing to pay more (possibly) for the ibook with AEX or the effect it would have on 12" PB sales, etc., etc.

it's not as simple as, ok, here's the latest and the greatest, everyone should have it so we'll put it in the ibook.

if someone really "needed" AEX and knows the benefits of it, he/she will figure for him/herself that what he/she really needs is a PB. i imagine the average consumer who apple targets the ibook for either doesn't know the difference between AE and AEX or knows the difference but doesn't know how he/she would benefit from it.

i have no doubt AEX will make it into ibook eventually and i imagine that the original post's point was that that "eventually" is now... we shall see, i guess. i imagine the next big revision of ibook will contain AEX. so the question is, is it time for the big revision yet?

MacBoyX
Aug 11, 2003, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by junior
I don't know why people say something 'doesn't need' a certain technology.
I don't know about you guys, but I would like to keep my bran new mac for at least a good 2 to 3 years. So in the meantime, I would like to get as much technology as possible crammed into the latest mac on offer. Especially when this wireless -g technology is something Apple is trying to popularise. They were after all the first to implement this standard into there products. There ain't nothing bad about having faster connection over the network and/or the internet. That goes for pros AND consumers.

The fact that the AE is not in the 15" PB or the iBook is because tehy aren't the LATEST Macs on offer. The AE is not simply a differnet card but a total different port. It is going to require a redesign of the MOBO for both.

This is the problem we have with lots of technology. I think every Palm should have a built in 802.11b card but that doesn't mean it NEEDS it.

Of course we all want the latest everything when we buy a computer but 802.11g vs b is not a significant reason to not buy a computer. Just because Apple has tried to popularize a technology doesn't mean that most people NEED it. We are pointing out in this thread the NEED vs the want. Most universities are not upgrading their Wireless networks just because 802.11g is available, so again no "need" lies in the iBook line.

It's also worth noting that the technology is not even a year old and that the iBook has not had a major revision since it's introduction. If we were on a new version (not revision) of the iBook and it was lacking it...I could see the argument, but it's not.

I am sure the next gen iBook and the iMac will have it.

One more point to be made is it's MUCH easier to change and add things to full size Mobo's like the ones in the eMac and PowerMac than it is to do it in the iBook line, as far as the iMac... I think it's becuase the 15" iMac is on the way out and 17" will be the standard so why bother to upgrade that Mobo which IS a different Mobo than the 17"

Just my 25 cents...I could be wrong...If I am..can I get a refund? LOL

MacboyX

pagemap
Aug 11, 2003, 10:20 AM
Sorry for the off-topic question.

How do I tell what speed in megabits my airport card is operating at? If I open internet connect it shows me a bar with signal strength but not the speed in megabits that I can transfer at that signal strength. Thanks!

pagemap
Aug 11, 2003, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by MacBoyX
My broadband connection is 800Mbps

800Mbps? I doubt that, that would mean you have more than an OC12 to your house. I think you mean 800Kbps.

Kwyjibo
Aug 11, 2003, 10:30 AM
I think apple is smart for atleast the last revision and the next one to keep AE out of the iBook line, its a budget computer more or less. The average person who buys an iBook might be looking for good wifi (802.11B) but not necessarily the greatest .....I mean you save the twenty bucks if you buy the card new, and even more if you get the router for cheap because it quasi-old tech...so you save all around for something that personally suits you....When i needed to transfer very large files to my iBook I wired in the iBook and went from there because it was that much faster (good ol' bittorents )

MacBoyX
Aug 11, 2003, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by pagemap
800Mbps? I doubt that, that would mean you have more than an OC12 to your house. I think you mean 800Kbps.

Darn...what a typo lol :)

I did mean 800Kbps. My whole argument would be moot if i had 800Mbps.

MacBoyX

mstecker
Aug 11, 2003, 11:08 AM
I disagree with the opinion that getting Airport Extreme into the current iBooks would require a motherboard design. The Airport slot that is currently there is just a PCMCIA slot - nothing more. There are 802.11g PCMCIA cards currently on the market with OS X drivers. All Apple would need to do would be to redesign the built-in antenna to use the external airport antenna connector.

I can't think of any reason why they wouldn't bother to do this.

Powerbook G5
Aug 11, 2003, 11:36 AM
I'm sure that the next time they update the iBook, the new Airport Extreme will be put into the systems.

MacBoyX
Aug 11, 2003, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by mstecker
I disagree with the opinion that getting Airport Extreme into the current iBooks would require a motherboard design. The Airport slot that is currently there is just a PCMCIA slot - nothing more. There are 802.11g PCMCIA cards currently on the market with OS X drivers. All Apple would need to do would be to redesign the built-in antenna to use the external airport antenna connector.

I can't think of any reason why they wouldn't bother to do this.

Umm...Apple is not in the business of having two different types of cards for the same technology. That being said there is no way Apple would use PCMCIA style cards in iBooks/iMacs as AirPort Extreme. AE is a Mini-PCI and as such will stay that way. Don't hold your breath for AirPort extreme cards for Aiport slots. If they were going to do this they would have done it at the same time as releasing the AE cards.

Also I don't know for sure that the AirPort slot in an iBook is truly a PCMCIA port...It may be but I dunno.

MacBoyX

mrjamin
Aug 11, 2003, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by Powerbook G5
I'm sure that the next time they update the iBook, the new Airport Extreme will be put into the systems.

wasn't there speculation that the iBook was being eol'd, then dropping the price of the 12"?

i forsee the 12" becoming the new iBook, and the 15" + 17" getting a G5 in them. It seems a little silly + confusing to have three generations of processors available.

Powerbook G5
Aug 11, 2003, 12:14 PM
It does seem like the 12" could become the next iBook, although I hope they put it in a more iBook like case, I personally like the looks and strength of it, combined with the better reception and cooler operation since it isn't made out of Al. The only thing they need to keep of the 12" PowerBook is the better construction of the keyboard because it's just a real gem.

Gus
Aug 11, 2003, 12:53 PM
Look, there is a "need" for it in the iBook. I never understand people who say that a computer doesn't need to be upgraded. When the entire line that have been updated in the last 8 months has this technology except the iBook. something is worng, and I'll tell you why. Maybe I work in an environment where I DO want to transfer files from an iBook to a PowerBook over AirPort. Because the iBook only had 802.11b, the ENTIRE AE network gets throttled down to match the speed of that one iBook on the network. This is why it is needed.

By the way, all this discussion on redesign is moot, I already stipulated that a redesign is needed.

The iMac has AE. The 15" PowerBook of course does not have have it because it hasn't been updated in almost 10 months. The iBook has has a new revision since-(note I said revision, not redesign. A speed bump is a revision, just like the iMac got a revision and not a redesign).

I don't know why people think that just because someone owns a "consumer" machine, they will never want or NEED to transfer large files. SOme of us professionals who have to buy our own machines have to get buy with what we can afford.

Regards,
Gus

jxyama
Aug 11, 2003, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by Gus
I don't know why people think that just because someone owns a "consumer" machine, they will never want or NEED to transfer large files. SOme of us professionals who have to buy our own machines have to get buy with what we can afford.

Gus-

Apple doesn't design machines to cater to every possible user needs. Of course there'll be people who would need AEX in an iBook and iBook is all he/she can afford. What I was saying is basically this: if they put AEX in an iBook, perhaps, it will no longer be as "affordable" as it is now?

Regardless of the real costs of parts and specs loaded, Apple needs to distinguish its products. I believe AEX is one of those things used to distinguish their i-line to Power-line of products.

When wireless-g become popular and widespread and/or iBook gets a decent upgrate, I am sure AEX will be in it. I just don't believe now is the time because the difference between iBook and 12" PowerBook is almost non-existent as is.

Gus
Aug 11, 2003, 01:27 PM
Understood, but both the eMac and the iMac have AE, so part of that argument is nullified, you see what I mean? The price difference in a redesign I can understand. I don't like it, but I could understand it.

Regards,
Gus

GeeYouEye
Aug 11, 2003, 02:01 PM
Just a couple quick notes:

1. I assume AEX is supposed to be AirPort Extreme, and AE is regular AirPort, but there's no "E" in AirPort. I think the naming conventions you all are looking for are AP and APE (or possibly APX).

2. The AirPort card slot in the iBook is a standard PCMCIA, AFIAK, unless Apple messed with the pin/signal configuration. In fact, from what I can tell, the AirPort card itself is a standard 802.11b card with an adaptor for the antenna clipped on (it's that last millimeter or so that frames the top of the card - I never noticed until today though that it was held on by clips. I don't have the guts, or the $79 for a new card, to take it apart though).

Blackstealth
Aug 11, 2003, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by GeeYouEye
The AirPort card slot in the iBook is a standard PCMCIA, AFIAK, unless Apple messed with the pin/signal configuration.

I have it on good authority that two of the pins are swapped, however no-one (as yet) knows which two pins.