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MacRumors
Sep 4, 2007, 09:30 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

According to numbers (http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSL0432369320070904) from iSuppli, Apple's iPhone outsold all smartphones in the United States in July. This represents its first full month of sales and accounted for 1.8% of all U.S. mobile handsets.
The two models of the iPhone on the market sold more than Research in Motion's Blackberry series, the entire Palm portfolio and any individual smartphone model from Motorola, Nokia or Samsung.

The data was collected through a consumer survey of 2 million participants in the U.S.

Cellular-news offers (http://www.cellular-news.com/story/25814.php) some additional statistics from iSuppli's survey.

- 57% of iPhones bought in July were U.S. consumers 35 years or younger
- 52% Male, 48% Female
- 1/4 of iPhone purchases switched to AT&T from another provider.

Apple had previously stated (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/07/25/apple-posts-818-million-profit-for-3rd-quarter-2007/) that they expect to sell one million iPhones by the end of September, with a longer term goal of grabbing 1% of the cell phone market.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/09/04/apples-iphone-outsells-all-other-smartphones-in-july/)



Much Ado
Sep 4, 2007, 09:31 AM
Should make for some good reading come the Q4 report. :)

Zwhaler
Sep 4, 2007, 09:33 AM
Not bad, Apple. I'm still wondering if they will manage the big 1%, but it seems that they are doing well at this point.

tomoisyourgod
Sep 4, 2007, 09:37 AM
Not bad, Apple. I'm still wondering if they will manage the big 1%, but it seems that they are doing well at this point.

They are aiming for 10 million by Q4 of 2008... I don't know how that fairs with regards to market share

Buschmaster
Sep 4, 2007, 09:39 AM
They are aiming for 10 million by Q4 of 2008... I don't know how that fairs with regards to market share
I believe in the keynote they said almost 1 billion (950-960 or so?) phones were sold in 2006. This was January 2007 that it was announced, so I'm assuming those were complete 2006 numbers.

Chaszmyr
Sep 4, 2007, 09:44 AM
I believe in the keynote they said almost 1 billion (950-960 or so?) phones were sold in 2006. This was January 2007 that it was announced, so I'm assuming those were complete 2006 numbers.

That's correct. 10 million units is roughly 1% marketshare, according to the numbers we've seen.

ddubbo
Sep 4, 2007, 09:45 AM
It seems to me these are the same analysts that predicted that Apple would sell 500K - 1000K of iPhones on the very first weekend, when actually it barely reached 250K?

phytonix
Sep 4, 2007, 09:46 AM
Well two models are not enough. But they are doing okay at the moment I think.

Rhosfelt
Sep 4, 2007, 09:47 AM
Kind of curious, who would rate this negative?

tomoisyourgod
Sep 4, 2007, 09:49 AM
It seems to me these are the same analysts that predicted that Apple would sell 500K - 1000K of iPhones on the very first weekend, when actually it barely reached 250K?

Says here (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/technology/article2015420.ece) that they sold 500k on the first weekend

Kind of curious, who would rate this negative?

I wouldn't say it's negative from a shareholders perspective, the iPhone has really affected the share price in a positive way...

Dimwhit
Sep 4, 2007, 09:49 AM
Not a bad first month, for sure. Just imagine how well they'll do when the next gen comes out, as well as (hopefully) other models, etc. Once the iPhone matures, it's going to do quite well.

colocolo
Sep 4, 2007, 09:50 AM
Kind of curious, who would rate this negative?

Good ol' Ballmer, as usual. Crazy ape. :)

Jaykay
Sep 4, 2007, 09:51 AM
So what kind of numbers sold so far does that equate to? (or just for july)

aristobrat
Sep 4, 2007, 09:53 AM
It seems to me these are the same analysts that predicted that Apple would sell 500K - 1000K of iPhones on the very first weekend, when actually it barely reached 250K?
I remember seeing iSuppli stating how much the iPhone components cost Apple, but I don't recall them predicting any sales figures.

July was "launch month" for Apple. It's cool to hear about how well the iPhone sold then, but I'm wondering if it can maintain July's momentum throughout the rest of the year? You'd think that even as well as it's selling, August sales would be lower.

stormdrums
Sep 4, 2007, 09:53 AM
these numbers are really impressing. i think the "iPhone-isation" will gain momentum with more and more people using this phone and showing it to others who then decide to buy it, too.
the next interesting point is, that apple is earning much more money than the other phone companies because they are selling as much as all other companies together and only have to pay one development group

tomoisyourgod
Sep 4, 2007, 09:53 AM
Not a bad first month, for sure. Just imagine how well they'll do when the next gen comes out, as well as (hopefully) other models, etc. Once the iPhone matures, it's going to do quite well.

like iPod sales going up and up since the first gen in 2001, imagine if they could repeat that with iPhones!

Squonk
Sep 4, 2007, 09:55 AM
I am curious to see how sales will be for Aug, Sept and Oct. I have the feeling that July is the bleeding edge folks who had pent up demand for the new toy. Does the iPhone have "legs" to take Apple to their 1% of the market goal? I find it hard to believe that :apple: can accomplish this with a $499 and $599 device.

KingofAwesome
Sep 4, 2007, 09:55 AM
Assuming the survey is accurate, if 1.8% of all phones sold are iPhones, then after a little more than half the average lifespan of a phone, it should reach that 1% marketshare mark. And I've heard the average lifespan is a little over two years, so if demand ramps up (and a new version comes out) over the next 12-15 months, they may hit that Q4 08 target.

I say demand should ramp up because the first month's sales will almost definitely be higher than the next few months. Still, with phone contracts being the way they are, I wouldn't be surprised if the dropoff was minimal, as more people see their contracts end with other carriers.

Dimwhit
Sep 4, 2007, 09:57 AM
like iPod sales going up and up since the first gen in 2001, imagine if they could repeat that with iPhones!

That would be amazing. Probably won't happen like the iPod, since the iPhone is hitting a very mature market, whereas the iPod hit a young, largely untapped market.

But still, I really only see the iPhone gaining momentum. Hitting the 1% mark be end of next years seems very doable.

Dagless
Sep 4, 2007, 09:58 AM
This is great news.

I can't wait to see various levels of iPhone just as there is the iPod, one for different markets. I'd love a 1gb mini iPhone :)

alywa
Sep 4, 2007, 09:58 AM
These are great initial numbers. It is likely apple will release an iphone-nano type product in the future... that's where we'll start to see big sales numbers.

Personally, I don't think I could ever be happy with a conventional cell phone again. I use the iPhone constantly... it is just so handy.

My wife lost her RAZR, and we got a free Nokia 6026. It isn't a bad phone, but it makes me realize how nice the iPhone really is. (We're waiting to see if a smaller iPhone comes out to get her one)

colocolo
Sep 4, 2007, 09:59 AM
the next interesting point is, that apple is earning much more money than the other phone companies because they are selling as much as all other companies together and only have to pay one development group

Not exactly.

THey outsold the whole Blackberry series and all of Palm's offerings, but "just" sold more than each individual smartphone from Nokia, Motorola and Samsung. That means that Nokia's whole lineup outsold the iPhone. :)

As i have no idea what each company's margins and R&D cost are, I can't comment on the making more money statement.

Still impressive though. I thought it would do good, but not this good.

aLoC
Sep 4, 2007, 10:00 AM
Ok so they are the most popular Smart phone but how many people buy smart phones vs ordinary phones.

To me a smart phone is just a phone with a lot of junk added that gets in the way of it being a phone.

zap2
Sep 4, 2007, 10:00 AM
Kind of curious, who would rate this negative?

People with money in Palm, RIM, Mot, Nokia or other smartphone companys!

tomoisyourgod
Sep 4, 2007, 10:01 AM
That would be amazing. Probably won't happen like the iPod, since the iPhone is hitting a very mature market, whereas the iPod hit a young, largely untapped market.

But still, I really only see the iPhone gaining momentum. Hitting the 1% mark be end of next years seems very doable.

good point, i'll be getting one for sure.

I also feel it will help sales of Macintosh computers, many anaylists and market people indicated iPods have this effect, but that's a whole new topic...

Much Ado
Sep 4, 2007, 10:01 AM
Kind of curious, who would rate this negative?

The Amish?

zap2
Sep 4, 2007, 10:01 AM
To me a smart phone is just a phone with a lot of junk added that gets in the way of it being a phone.

:eek:

I'm inclined to believe, you aren't really grasping the point of a smartphone.

dernhelm
Sep 4, 2007, 10:02 AM
It will be interesting to see if the next gen iPods eat into iPhone sales at all. I know some people who bought the iPhone just because of the interface - they didn't really care about the phone function.

mambodancer
Sep 4, 2007, 10:03 AM
I am curious to see how sales will be for Aug, Sept and Oct. I have the feeling that July is the bleeding edge folks who had pent up demand for the new toy. Does the iPhone have "legs" to take Apple to their 1% of the market goal? I find it hard to believe that :apple: can accomplish this with a $499 and $599 device.

Of course, that what they said in 2001 about a certain mp3 player.

aLoC
Sep 4, 2007, 10:05 AM
I also feel it will help sales of Macintosh computers, many anaylists and market people indicated iPods have this effect, but that's a whole new topic...

Yes the current iMac is reminiscient of the iPhone and the previous iMac was reminiscient of an iPod. The halo effect is not by accident.

aLoC
Sep 4, 2007, 10:07 AM
I'm inclined to believe, you aren't really grasping the point of a smartphone.

Quite possibly. I rather think the smart phone exists not because people asked for it, but because of phone manufacturers trying so hard to differentiate themselves.

Mgkwho
Sep 4, 2007, 10:09 AM
Wow! So, if iSuppli is correct, and Apple really did grab 1.8% of the US market, how many iPhones is that so far?

I hope the sales don't slow down; i.e. that there will be an immediate uptick in sales and not a lack of sales now that the initial two months have gone by.

-=|Mgkwho

Squonk
Sep 4, 2007, 10:09 AM
Of course, that what they said in 2001 about a certain mp3 player.

True. What I meant to add to my post was that they will need to fill out the product line with some more affordable options as well. When it came to the iPod, I bought in fairly early because I'm willing to spend the money on audio gear. But when it comes to a device that I might use currently for 1-2 hours a week, I'm reluctant to spend 500-600 + another $240/year (to add on the data plan). I KNOW that I'd use an iPhone more than I use my current cell phone because it DOES MORE. But, I'm having a hard to justify the cost and take the plunge.

I know that when the days comes that I buy and iPhone, I'm going to love it! :D

I look forward to seeing the iPhone evolution of models and marketshare over the next year.

Dagless
Sep 4, 2007, 10:12 AM
To me Smartphones have just meant a mobile phone crossed with a PDA.

Whereas the XDA was a PDA trying to be a phone too :p

Small White Car
Sep 4, 2007, 10:12 AM
Wow! So, if iSuppli is correct, and Apple really did grab 1.8% of the US market

Only if everyone in the U.S. threw away their old phone and bought a new one in July.

Which is probably unlikely.

BKF
Sep 4, 2007, 10:15 AM
Ok so they are the most popular Smart phone but how many people buy smart phones vs ordinary phones.

To me a smart phone is just a phone with a lot of junk added that gets in the way of it being a phone.

Yes, not many people buy smartphones because there's a lot of junk on them, or if there are cool features on them, nobody can figure out how to use them. But there's nothing Apple likes better than swooping in when they see somebody doing a crappy job on something that could be great. So, the thinking must have been, if you could build a phone on which the features are more than junk, and if you could make it easy for people to use, then you could exponentially expand the number of people who would think about buying such a phone. Like the ad says, say hello to iPhone.

Daremo
Sep 4, 2007, 10:19 AM
Apple doesn't need to release a new phone for sales to ramp up, they need to add all the missing features with a software upgrade, to bring in the people on the fence waiting for the full gamut of basics. Give the phone MMS, copy and paste, open it up for 3rd party apps, and you'll double sales.

hug
Sep 4, 2007, 10:20 AM
It seems to me these are the same analysts that predicted that Apple would sell 500K - 1000K of iPhones on the very first weekend, when actually it barely reached 250K?

They sold over 500K the first weekend. The 250K was an incorrect and misleading report. The real numbers were over 500K.

BKKbill
Sep 4, 2007, 10:28 AM
Yawn, let's see the September results before throwing the party if you don't mind. Oh and done you thing it would be nice if we could get numbers from a reliable source.

jholzner
Sep 4, 2007, 10:29 AM
They sold over 500K the first weekend. The 250K was an incorrect and misleading report. The real numbers were over 500K.

Umm...Apple said they sold 270,000 and i doubt that they can legally lie to you at a financial conference call.

newguineafan
Sep 4, 2007, 10:32 AM
Ah, bravo, Apple, bravo.

But will they continue their great success?

I think so.

By the way: it took the Zune 7 MONTHS to sell one million. It took Apple about a month to reach that mark. Lol.

killmoms
Sep 4, 2007, 10:37 AM
Only if everyone in the U.S. threw away their old phone and bought a new one in July.

Which is probably unlikely.

Maybe you don't know what market share means. Market share is "percentage sold within a given time period." You seem to be referring to installed base, which is "percentage of all units within a given market segment." So, a 1.8% market share would mean that out of all phones sold in the US in July, 1.8% of them were iPhones. A 1.8% installed base would mean out of all phones that EXIST in the US now, 1.8% are iPhones. Clearly the first is quite possible—the second is nigh impossible. But that's also not what the post you quoted said. ;)

KingofAwesome
Sep 4, 2007, 10:40 AM
Umm...Apple said they sold 270,000 and i doubt that they can legally lie to you at a financial conference call.

They were referring to June 29th and 30, but the weekend extended to July 1st, so unless they didn't sell any on Sunday, the number is definitely higher than 270K for that weekend. I don't think anyone but Apple knows what that number is - theoretically, they could have sold another 230K that day, but that isn't likely. We'll have to wait for the actual numbers from Apple, if they ever even provide them.

shadowfax
Sep 4, 2007, 10:40 AM
Umm...Apple said they sold 270,000 and i doubt that they can legally lie to you at a financial conference call.

Apple said they sold $270,000 on Friday and Saturday on opening weekend. That leaves out Sunday, so it's highly likely that the numbers are in the $400,000-500,000 range for the whole opening weekend.

Agathon
Sep 4, 2007, 10:40 AM
Umm...Apple said they sold 270,000 and i doubt that they can legally lie to you at a financial conference call.

That was 270,000 by midnight Saturday. The quarter ended then. That doesn't count Sunday sales, which could easily have been another 100K

APPLENEWBIE
Sep 4, 2007, 10:44 AM
The same article reported: ISuppli reiterated its forecast that Apple would sell 4.5 million iPhones this year, rising to more than 30 million in 2011.

JonasLondon
Sep 4, 2007, 10:45 AM
...

July was "launch month" for Apple. It's cool to hear about how well the iPhone sold then, but I'm wondering if it can maintain July's momentum throughout the rest of the year? You'd think that even as well as it's selling, August sales would be lower.

All they need to do is to bring it to the UK - I'm buying as my Nokia E61 has gone "useless" with its joystick failing now "permanently", conveniently 13 months after buying the darn thing.

Apple iPhone rocks!

cyberone
Sep 4, 2007, 10:45 AM
it says "the two models of the iphone ..."

two models.

o well, storage-wise.

kind of an overstatement.

Glassman
Sep 4, 2007, 10:45 AM
Ok so they are the most popular Smart phone but how many people buy smart phones vs ordinary phones.

To me a smart phone is just a phone with a lot of junk added that gets in the way of it being a phone.

Who says iPhone should be considered a Smartfone? It's quite the opposite - no user installable 3rd party applications, not a lot of functions, certainly no junk and very simple and intuitive UI and no large keyboard - in other words the exact opposite of Smartfone as we know them.. this is the phone for ordinary people, not geeks or business people..

psingh01
Sep 4, 2007, 10:46 AM
Apple said they sold $270,000 on Friday and Saturday on opening weekend. That leaves out Sunday, so it's highly likely that the numbers are in the $400,000-500,000 range for the whole opening weekend.

That's without the $...otherwise they would have only sold around 450 total iphones :D

KingofAwesome
Sep 4, 2007, 10:47 AM
it says "the two models of the iphone ..."

two models.

did i miss something?!

4GB and 8GB.

JPark
Sep 4, 2007, 10:48 AM
it says "the two models of the iphone ..."

two models.

did i miss something?!

4GB AND 8GB.

Edit: (12345678910 JINX! You owe me a coke.)

Buschmaster
Sep 4, 2007, 10:53 AM
Edit: 4GB and 8GB (didn't want to feel left out!)

I would think that there will be 3 factors that will help the iPhone keep (even gain?) momentum.

The first is that it's only with one provider. I for one have to wait until December 10th to get my iPhone and I am so certain I am getting one that my dashboard even has a Countdown Calendar until 'iPhone'. (97 days!) Many other people are going to be riding out their other contracts and then shopping for a phone. If it's somebody who really wants an iPod or a smartphone this will be very attractive.

The second would be that people do wait to buy phones. I've never bought a phone while currently riding out a contract and I'm sure a lot of other people are the same way. Even Cingular/ATT users will want to wait until their phone is in dire need of replacement. People typically want to get what they can out of their device. Sure, the price won't drop just because they get a contract but it doesn't mean that they won't wait for their contract to end anyway.

The third would be that the more people using them the more people will see them. The more people that see them the more people that see how great they are. When you see how great it is and you have the money to spend, you will probably buy it. This will probably mostly help the people currently using iPods and phones and are in need of replacing both...

dontmatter
Sep 4, 2007, 10:54 AM
Assuming the survey is accurate, if 1.8% of all phones sold are iPhones, then after a little more than half the average lifespan of a phone, it should reach that 1% marketshare mark. And I've heard the average lifespan is a little over two years, so if demand ramps up (and a new version comes out) over the next 12-15 months, they may hit that Q4 08 target.

I say demand should ramp up because the first month's sales will almost definitely be higher than the next few months. Still, with phone contracts being the way they are, I wouldn't be surprised if the dropoff was minimal, as more people see their contracts end with other carriers.

Would be great, but the macrumors headline was missing one important word: apple hopes for 1% of global market share. 1.8% refers to US market share.

So the question is, how many phones are sold in the USA, so we can translate this into real numbers?

~Shard~
Sep 4, 2007, 11:32 AM
Great news! Now bring it to Canada, Europe, etc. and watch the sales really take off!

weckart
Sep 4, 2007, 11:33 AM
The iPhone is NOT a smartphone. Not even close. Comparing sales of this with smartphones is like comparing sales of the iMac with smartphones. Possible, but pointless.

So how did it do compared with other non-smartphones?

KingofAwesome
Sep 4, 2007, 11:46 AM
The iPhone is NOT a smartphone. Not even close. Comparing sales of this with smartphones is like comparing sales of the iMac with smartphones. Possible, but pointless.

So how did it do compared with other non-smartphones?

What is the definition of a smartphone, and why doesn't the iPhone fit that definition?

JPark
Sep 4, 2007, 11:49 AM
The iPhone is NOT a smartphone. Not even close. Comparing sales of this with smartphones is like comparing sales of the iMac with smartphones. Possible, but pointless.


It's not at all pointless. They are after the same market share. Many of the people who are willing to pay $500 for a phone already have smart phones.

lazyrighteye
Sep 4, 2007, 11:52 AM
To me a smart phone is just a phone with a lot of junk added that gets in the way of it being a phone.

:)

It's clear, by your comments, that you have not used an iPhone.
Of all of the 'smart' phones I have used, this one makes said "junk added that gets in the way" (which plagues other smart phones I have used) transparent.
Nothing comes close to it's ease of use.

I guess we could call the iPhone a smarter phone...

sjo
Sep 4, 2007, 11:53 AM
Would be great, but the macrumors headline was missing one important word: apple hopes for 1% of global market share. 1.8% refers to US market share.

So the question is, how many phones are sold in the USA, so we can translate this into real numbers?

during one quarter less than 40m mobile phones are sold in the us, so 13m a month and 1.8% would be less than 250k. worth noting also that this include the hype peak. how they come to 4.5m sold in the us this year, i really don't understand.

plumbingandtech
Sep 4, 2007, 12:05 PM
Poor Palm.


Not.

And to the poster above.

YES it is a smartphone IMO.

chr1s60
Sep 4, 2007, 12:05 PM
It is good to hear this. I am pretty sure Apple has probably already sold 1 million iPhones. They seem well ahead of the seemingly low goal they set for 1 million sold by the end of the quarter. I still fear that a new iPod Touch could have huge impact on iPhone sales, causing them to drop significantly since many people seem to buy the phone for the iPod.

plumbingandtech
Sep 4, 2007, 12:10 PM
I still fear that a new iPod Touch could have huge impact on iPhone sales, causing them to drop significantly since many people seem to buy the phone for the iPod.

Not sure. At the end of the day a person needs to decide if they want one device (that dials) or two that are more of a pain to carry.

Plus. I hope but we have not seen if the ipod will do Safari. It will be interesting if they only do wifi for music streaming....

24 more hours....

gnasher729
Sep 4, 2007, 12:15 PM
They are aiming for 10 million by Q4 of 2008... I don't know how that fairs with regards to market share

If you follow the link to the article, iSuppli estimates sales of 4.5 million in 2007. That is for only six months with almost no sales outside the USA; Apple would then have 12 months to sell another 5.5 million all over the world to reach that goal.

About the market share: Remember that market share counts number of phones sold. My £30 pre-paid mobile with no features whatsoever except ten buttons numbered 0 to 9 counts as ONE phone sold, just like a $600 iPhone. Whatever the market share numbers, Apple will have a much much bigger share in the total revenues.

EagerDragon
Sep 4, 2007, 12:20 PM
Was that more than all of them combined or more than each individually?

compuguy1088
Sep 4, 2007, 12:26 PM
The Amish?

Impossible, the Amish would not even have a computer, nor be looking at this site in the first place :D...

APPLENEWBIE
Sep 4, 2007, 01:12 PM
Impossible, the Amish would not even have a computer, nor be looking at this site in the first place :D...

Oh yeah? What about a wood-fired computer, huh?:D

lazyrighteye
Sep 4, 2007, 01:13 PM
Not sure. At the end of the day a person needs to decide if they want one device (that dials) or two that are more of a pain to carry.

Plus. I hope but we have not seen if the ipod will do Safari. It will be interesting if they only do wifi for music streaming....

I think there is room for both a "Touch" and an iPhone in Apple's lineup.
They cover two totally different markets.
iPhone = the active mobile user that wants/needs a true all-in-one.
"Touch" = the casual mobile user that doesn't mind carrying two device (phone + iPod).
But the second you put Safari on a "Touch," things quickly get a little crowded.

<Slightly OT>
One of my biggest gripes about the iPhone is that it does not offer that ever-handy Hard Disk mode - allowing users to (say) move files between Macs, like I have done with all of my iPods to date. That little, seemingly insignificant feature, is HUGE... to me. If the "Touch" maintains this ability, that too could cut into iPhone sales. But again, different markets... blah blah blah...
</Slightly OT>

I'm guessing if there is a "Touch" announced tomorrow, it will implement the new, slick nav features a multi-touch screen offers, minus Safari, Mail, YouTube, Maps, etc. My ¢2.

rlreif
Sep 4, 2007, 01:14 PM
Ok so they are the most popular Smart phone but how many people buy smart phones vs ordinary phones.

To me a smart phone is just a phone with a lot of junk added that gets in the way of it being a phone.

but....
by definition a smartphone is one which can have applications added to it. The iPhone isnt a smartphone... most every phone these days has a web browser, email, etc... though it is terrible. The iphone is the best non smart phone out there, but it isnt a smartphone

rlreif
Sep 4, 2007, 01:24 PM
Poor Palm.


Not.

And to the poster above.

YES it is a smartphone IMO.

it is not a smartphone... not everything is a matter of opinion... some things are or are not... you could say a triangle is a circle in your opinion or england is in japan in your opinion, or a skateboard is a type of automobile, but that wouldnt be valid

skoorbevad
Sep 4, 2007, 01:38 PM
This would be great if the iPhone were a smartphone.

Edit: to clarify, smartphones traditionally have the ability to install 3rd party software not included by the manufacturer for the purpose of adapting to its user's needs. While I guess "unofficial" steps are being made to do that on the iPhone device, an iPhone is an iPhone -- if you need functionality that's not there out of the box, you're out of luck. I would say it's a more fully-featured phone, but definitely not a smartphone by any means.

notjustjay
Sep 4, 2007, 01:39 PM
This would be great if the iPhone were a smartphone.

What is the definition of a smartphone, and why doesn't the iPhone fit that definition?

aristobrat
Sep 4, 2007, 01:41 PM
This would be great if the iPhone were a smartphone.
Don't tell that to the analysts that are calling it that. ;)

rlreif
Sep 4, 2007, 01:42 PM
What is the definition of a smartphone, and why doesn't the iPhone fit that definition?

3rd party application support

neven
Sep 4, 2007, 01:49 PM
it is not a smartphone... not everything is a matter of opinion... some things are or are not... you could say a triangle is a circle in your opinion or england is in japan in your opinion, or a skateboard is a type of automobile, but that wouldnt be valid

A term like "smartphone" is quite far from a term like "triangle". Triangles are much simpler and more simply defined - and yet even their definition isn't always clear. In non-Euclidian geometry a triangle is quite a different thing, for instance.

In any case, here's Wikipedia's definition of a smartphone:

"A smartphone is a full-featured mobile phone with personal computer like functionality."

If being able to install applications is a necessary feature of "computer-like" devices for you, that's dandy. But don't think you're safe behind some wall of mathematical definition when it comes to such vague and subjective matters.

madmaxmedia
Sep 4, 2007, 01:50 PM
but....
by definition a smartphone is one which can have applications added to it. The iPhone isnt a smartphone... most every phone these days has a web browser, email, etc... though it is terrible. The iphone is the best non smart phone out there, but it isnt a smartphone

I'm fine with that, if that's the general definition of a smartphone and everyone uses it. But this is actually the first time I've heard that.

Internet, multimedia, the ability to view email attachments, etc...those are more the things that come to mind for me.

I can buy crappy games and Java apps on my RAZR- does that mean it's a smartphone?

What if all these companies develop for mobile Safari services that are basically as fully-featured as regular installed app? Does that count?

Again, I'm fine with whatever is the industry standard (since it's all semantics anyways.) But I don't think there really is one. The other thing about using this as the definition, is that most people never buy 3rd party apps anyways. A common mantra regarding Palm PDA's is that 95% of the users only use the default apps. So making that the definition seems suspect to me (in addition to the question of whether my RAZR is then by 'definition' a smartphone.)

aristobrat
Sep 4, 2007, 01:54 PM
I would say it's a more fully-featured phone, but definitely not a smartphone by any means.
So it's missing one feature found on most other smartphones, so you completely take it out of the smartphone category and put it in the "more fully-featured phone" category, completely ignoring the smartphone features that it does have? :rolleyes:

rlreif
Sep 4, 2007, 01:57 PM
A term like "smartphone" is quite far from a term like "triangle". Triangles are much simpler and more simply defined - and yet even their definition isn't always clear. In non-Euclidian geometry a triangle is quite a different thing, for instance.

In any case, here's Wikipedia's definition of a smartphone:

"A smartphone is a full-featured mobile phone with personal computer like functionality."

If being able to install applications is a necessary feature of "computer-like" devices for you, that's dandy. But don't think you're safe behind some wall of mathematical definition when it comes to such vague and subjective matters.

nice try, but no.
here is the wiki article you refer to, so everyone else can see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smartphone

look at the very next sentence after the one you quote, but just HAPPENED to leave out of your comment.... nice try though

madmaxmedia
Sep 4, 2007, 02:00 PM
Even Brighthand lists the iPhone in its sales rankings of smartphones:

http://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsID=13308

I would tend to trust their arbitrary terminology more than anyone here. My impression has always been that the terms 'smartphone', 'feature phone', and regular dumb phones aren't so clear and overlap a bit, i.e. most people consider the iPhone to be a 'smartphone', so it is.

cgavula
Sep 4, 2007, 02:01 PM
but....
by definition a smartphone is one which can have applications added to it. The iPhone isnt a smartphone... most every phone these days has a web browser, email, etc... though it is terrible. The iphone is the best non smart phone out there, but it isnt a smartphone

but..

Native application installation is possible and HAS been done many times now. I'm running half a dozen 3rd party apps on my iphone. For those who don't want to use the available 3rd party application installation methods, the system CAN have apps added, but it's simply controlled by the vendor (who haven't released any new apps YET), mostly likely controlled via iTunes (just like apps/games for the ipod).

MS smartphones also require you to use a controlled conduit - Activesync - to facility the installation process (called directly or indirectly) so they try to control application installation as well (albeit with a LOT fewer restrictions). To be fair, you can bypass the Activesync approach using .CAB files, but that isn't the recommended/preferred approach from MS.

The iPhone is therefore NOT a closed system (by definition) and therefore CAN be called a smartphone. Application installation even happens over the air - a thing that MS has a lot of trouble accomplishing right now (although it can be accommodated via Handango and other service providers).

rlreif
Sep 4, 2007, 02:03 PM
I'm fine with that, if that's the general definition of a smartphone and everyone uses it. But this is actually the first time I've heard that.

Internet, multimedia, the ability to view email attachments, etc...those are more the things that come to mind for me.

I can buy crappy games and Java apps on my RAZR- does that mean it's a smartphone?

What if all these companies develop for mobile Safari services that are basically as fully-featured as regular installed app? Does that count?

Again, I'm fine with whatever is the industry standard (since it's all semantics anyways.) But I don't think there really is one. The other thing about using this as the definition, is that most people never buy 3rd party apps anyways. A common mantra regarding Palm PDA's is that 95% of the users only use the default apps. So making that the definition seems suspect to me (in addition to the question of whether my RAZR is then by 'definition' a smartphone.)

apple insinuates that because it has web and email it is a smartphone... i received email on my sony erricson t68i in 2002... the experience sucked, but it has been possible to use web and email on any ol phone forever... email and web is not what makes it a smartphone.. the industry standard litmus test for a smartphone is 3rd party apps... we can argue whether this is a good definition in our opinions all day, but that would be a waste of time

aristobrat
Sep 4, 2007, 02:03 PM
Isn't the next sentence "Most smartphones are cellphones that support full featured email capabilities with the functionality of a complete personal organizer"?

The sentence in the Wiki dealing with 3rd party applications starts with "Most smartphones", implying that not all Smartphones run 3rd party apps, no?

madmaxmedia
Sep 4, 2007, 02:03 PM
nice try, but no.
here is the wiki article you refer to, so everyone else can see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smartphone

look at the very next sentence after the one you quote, but just HAPPENED to leave out of your comment.... nice try though

Not that I place too much on any Wikipedia entry, but if you read the entire description-

A smartphone is a full-featured mobile phone with personal computer like functionality. Most smartphones are cellphones that support full featured email capabilities with the functionality of a complete personal organizer. An important feature of most smartphones is that applications for enhanced data processing and connectivity can be installed on the device,[1] in contrast to regular phones which support sandboxed applications.

Most smartphones are...
An important feature of most smartphones...

'Most' meaning obviously most, but not all. It's obvious that the wikipedia entry suggests the term 'smartphone' is not written in stone.

Finally, the wikipedia entry includes the iPhone in the list of popular smartphone models anyway. So why the insistence that 3rd-party apps is the defining feature of a smartphone? Where did you hear it? Do you have a link?

we can argue whether this is a good definition in our opinions all day, but that would be a waste of time

I agree its pointless to argue whether it's a good definition. We are questioning whether that actually is the 'industry-standard' definition, considering even industry-specific sites like Brighthand call the iPhone a smartphone. And again, is my RAZR considered by industry to be a smartphone? The answer is clearly no.

rlreif
Sep 4, 2007, 02:05 PM
Not that I place too much on any Wikipedia entry, but if you read the entire description-



Most smartphones are...
An important feature of most smartphones...

'Most' meaning obviously most, but not all. It's obvious that the wikipedia entry suggests the term 'smartphone' is not written in stone.

Finally, the wikipedia entry includes the iPhone in the list of popular smartphone models anyway. So why the insistence that 3rd-party apps is the defining feature of a smartphone? Where did you hear it? Do you have a link?

ok fine you win (sarcasm intended)
i have better things to do than argue semantics all day with zealots

madmaxmedia
Sep 4, 2007, 02:10 PM
ok fine you win (sarcasm intended)
i have better things to do than argue semantics all day with zealots

LOL, it's not about semantics. I was just curious if you knew something I didn't. I've browsed various mobile device web sites for a long time, and never came across that particular definition of a smartphone, that's all.

Sorry for not completely accepting your truth at face value.

aristobrat
Sep 4, 2007, 02:14 PM
ok fine you win (sarcasm intended)
i have better things to do than argue semantics all day with zealots
Zealots, the media, and most telecom analysts, huh?

Industry litmus test, huh? Are you kidding? There hasn't be a concise test of anything since the terms "PDAphone" and "smartphone" were combined years ago.

skoorbevad
Sep 4, 2007, 02:18 PM
Don't tell that to the analysts that are calling it that. ;)

Yes, (http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/09/the-iphone-is-not-a-smartphone/) somebody (http://www.betanews.com/article/Report_Apple_IPhone_Not_a_Smartphone/1169746276) should (http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/8514.cfm) tell (http://www.osnews.com/story.php/17084/Report-Apple-iPhone-Not-a-Smartphone/) those (http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2173507/experts-warn-apple-iphone) analysts (http://www.wmexperts.com/articles/editorials/the_iphone_is_not_a_smartphone.html) about (http://www.bbhub.com/2007/01/26/analysts-think-iphone-is-not-a-smartphone/) the (http://tuxtops.com/node/2018) iPhone (http://mikeinmanila.wordpress.com/2007/01/13/new-apple-iphone-not-a-smartphone-apple-idiot-phone/)

Rhosfelt
Sep 4, 2007, 02:19 PM
Not sure. At the end of the day a person needs to decide if they want one device (that dials) or two that are more of a pain to carry.

Plus. I hope but we have not seen if the ipod will do Safari. It will be interesting if they only do wifi for music streaming....

24 more hours....

I am pretty sure that the iPod will not do Safari due to they want that to be bundled with the iPhone. I am pretty sure that the whole thing about the iPhone was it was three divices a phone, iPod, and a "breakthrough internet device."

madmaxmedia
Sep 4, 2007, 02:26 PM
I'm fine with that, and the definition of the iPhone as a high-class 'featurephone'. I was asking for links, as I didn't recall any stories specifically including or excluding the iPhone as a smartphone. The only link that was brought up was the Wikipedia one, which seemed to basically describe the iPhone as one.

What it is called by industry analysts is less than important than what it does do, and how well it sells for Apple. Obviously the term is used somewhat vaguely, but it's just semantics in the end.

Yes, (http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/09/the-iphone-is-not-a-smartphone/) somebody (http://www.betanews.com/article/Report_Apple_IPhone_Not_a_Smartphone/1169746276) should (http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/8514.cfm) tell (http://www.osnews.com/story.php/17084/Report-Apple-iPhone-Not-a-Smartphone/) those (http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2173507/experts-warn-apple-iphone) analysts (http://www.wmexperts.com/articles/editorials/the_iphone_is_not_a_smartphone.html) about (http://www.bbhub.com/2007/01/26/analysts-think-iphone-is-not-a-smartphone/) the (http://tuxtops.com/node/2018) iPhone (http://mikeinmanila.wordpress.com/2007/01/13/new-apple-iphone-not-a-smartphone-apple-idiot-phone/)

notjustjay
Sep 4, 2007, 02:38 PM
nice try, but no.
here is the wiki article you refer to, so everyone else can see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smartphone

look at the very next sentence after the one you quote, but just HAPPENED to leave out of your comment.... nice try though

OK, so let's assume for the moment that the Wikipedia definition for "smartphone" is authoritative. You're clearly referring to: An important feature of most smartphones is that applications for enhanced data processing and connectivity can be installed on the device.

Let's also ignore the word "most" for now and assume that this authoritative definition for smart phone must apply to the iPhone.

So, granted, support for third-party apps is a bit lacking (but NOT missing). "Can be installed" still technically applies, but I grant you that it is not officially supported in as much of a capacity as certain other, competing, smartphones.

So what about the "applications for enhanced data processing and connectivity" part?

Full-fledged email, on a keyboard (well, sort of)? A full-screen, color touch display? Full internet browsing? Google Maps? YouTube videos? Full iPod interface with graphical display? Full-screen photo album viewing and photo manipulation? Camera and image processing? Fully integrated contact database with all of these apps? You don't think all those count as "enhanced data processing and connectivity"?

If you're basing your entire assertion that the iPhone is not a smart phone on the three words "can be installed" from a definition written up by some dude on Wikipedia, then your argument is shaky, indeed.

But, as someone else said, this is all semantics. Whether you call it a "smart phone" or a "highly featured cell phone" or "personal internet communicator" or "the best iPod ever made" or whatever, is irrelevant. The iPhone is what it is. And what it is, according to the article, is outselling all (other) smart phones.

50548
Sep 4, 2007, 02:42 PM
I can only say one thing: it seems like people are finally seeing the light and becoming more intelligent in the IT arena...

Apple is rocking on ALL fronts, from computers to music players to high-end phones. It's gonna turn QUICKLY into THE biggest consumer electronics company in the world.

iPods = no contest
iPhone = no contest
Macs = no contest

Where are the naysayers and PCzoids now? Microsoft is DEAD.

skoorbevad
Sep 4, 2007, 02:49 PM
I'm not trying to hate on the iPhone, I rather like it and I think it's a pretty killer device. I just don't know that I like the definition of calling it what it's very reasonably not. The same way I get mildly annoyed when terminology of things gets muddy -- and before you know it, it means something totally different. :)


Microsoft is DEAD.


...oh boy.

aristobrat
Sep 4, 2007, 02:51 PM
Yes, (http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/09/the-iphone-is-not-a-smartphone/) somebody (http://www.betanews.com/article/Report_Apple_IPhone_Not_a_Smartphone/1169746276) should (http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/8514.cfm) tell (http://www.osnews.com/story.php/17084/Report-Apple-iPhone-Not-a-Smartphone/) those (http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2173507/experts-warn-apple-iphone) analysts (http://www.wmexperts.com/articles/editorials/the_iphone_is_not_a_smartphone.html) about (http://www.bbhub.com/2007/01/26/analysts-think-iphone-is-not-a-smartphone/) the (http://tuxtops.com/node/2018) iPhone (http://mikeinmanila.wordpress.com/2007/01/13/new-apple-iphone-not-a-smartphone-apple-idiot-phone/)
In your links there, you only managed to find two analysts, both of whom made their quotes six months before the iPhone launched. :rolleyes:

SPUY767
Sep 4, 2007, 03:36 PM
good point, i'll be getting one for sure.

I also feel it will help sales of Macintosh computers, many anaylists and market people indicated iPods have this effect, but that's a whole new topic...

The iPhone will likely give users more of a taste of the "mac experience" than iPods. So I see the potential for an even bigger Halo effect.

skoorbevad
Sep 4, 2007, 03:37 PM
In your links there, you only managed to find two analysts, both of whom made their quotes six months before the iPhone launched. :rolleyes:

Are you suggesting that the scope of the iPhone project drastically changed from January to the release date, such that these arguments would be invalid?

TurboSC
Sep 4, 2007, 03:52 PM
i knew it! Now that we own the marketplace lets get those apps out huh apple wheres my ichat...

twoodcc
Sep 4, 2007, 03:52 PM
wow, great news! especially for a proud iPhone owner ;)

bretm
Sep 4, 2007, 04:25 PM
Quite possibly. I rather think the smart phone exists not because people asked for it, but because of phone manufacturers trying so hard to differentiate themselves.

Well, no, it started with companies adapting original palm pilots to fit into a casing allowing them to be used as a phone. Them palms with phone connectivity so they could be on the internet. Then phones with mail. Then MS devices (a little late as always), etc.

Are you saying you don't like the smartphone idea? Errrr... why? Is it too hard to operate?

smiddlehurst
Sep 4, 2007, 05:18 PM
This would be great if the iPhone were a smartphone.

Edit: to clarify, smartphones traditionally have the ability to install 3rd party software not included by the manufacturer for the purpose of adapting to its user's needs. While I guess "unofficial" steps are being made to do that on the iPhone device, an iPhone is an iPhone -- if you need functionality that's not there out of the box, you're out of luck. I would say it's a more fully-featured phone, but definitely not a smartphone by any means.

Actually, speaking as someone who had the very first Microsoft Smartphone (the SPV) this wasn't entirely accurate. Orange decided to implement a closed eco-system so only their approved apps (or apps that were put through the approval process) could be installed. Granted this lasted about as long as a chocolate teapot under a blowtorch but still...

I'd say the definition of a Smartphone is a device that enables specific data functionality targeted at the needs of the mobile user that would traditionally have required a PC. Not so long ago this would have included phones that bundled MP3 player software although that's obviously long since past. If you want a software definition it'd be something like:

E-mail
Web Browsing
Some form of application interface (either local install or a powerful enough web client to allow apps)
'Smart' contact management
Some form of data synchronisation with a host computer

Of course this software definition changes as hardware becomes cheaper and some formally advanced functionality becomes more common on lower end hardware and the Smartphones use the extra power available for their extra price tag to push the boundaries that little bit further.

The concept that a smartphone MUST allow local install of software and that this is the sole definition of whether a device is a smartphone or not is, frankly, outdated. Heck, this isn't even a requirement for PC's in a business environment now (for example, we're currently investigating getting VERY cheap Windows boxes which will run the OS and a web browser and that's it. The application is run via web interface, e-mail is web-based and the bulk of the users have no requirement for an office suite). Certainly such devices are more flexible (and occasionaly more powerful) but providing there is access to SOME form of application environment then this is more than enough. Indeed the concept that a Smartphone must be able to run applications other than those supplied by the manufacturer is also questionable providing that the manufacturer gets the software bundle right.

Now all this is not intended to pass judgment on whether or not the iPhone is a good Smartphone or not, that will of course depend on the requirements of the individual user. However to argue that it's not a smartphone at all strikes me as ridiculous.

JGowan
Sep 4, 2007, 06:27 PM
boo-yaaa!

RZetlin
Sep 4, 2007, 07:26 PM
Is Steven Balmer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5oGaZIKYvo) still laughing at the iPhone? :)

cameronjpu
Sep 4, 2007, 08:00 PM
It is good to hear this. I am pretty sure Apple has probably already sold 1 million iPhones. They seem well ahead of the seemingly low goal they set for 1 million sold by the end of the quarter. I still fear that a new iPod Touch could have huge impact on iPhone sales, causing them to drop significantly since many people seem to buy the phone for the iPod.

I've heard this sentiment a few times and I don't get it. Do you really believe that people are out there paying $600 and $60 per month to get an iPod? I would LOVE to hear about a single person who uses it that way.

cameronjpu
Sep 4, 2007, 08:07 PM
but....
by definition a smartphone is one which can have applications added to it. The iPhone isnt a smartphone... most every phone these days has a web browser, email, etc... though it is terrible. The iphone is the best non smart phone out there, but it isnt a smartphone

That may or may not be the definition of a smartphone, but the fact is that "real people" have no care or concern for that. To a "real person" a smartphone is a phone that looks and works like a BB, a Palm, etc. You can define it how you like, but the 99.9% of the world that does not look up the definition for the word assumes that the iPhone is a smartphone.

cameronjpu
Sep 4, 2007, 08:11 PM
So it's missing one feature found on most other smartphones, so you completely take it out of the smartphone category and put it in the "more fully-featured phone" category, completely ignoring the smartphone features that it does have? :rolleyes:

How about the fact that the iPhone has smartphone features that no other smartphone has? Like integrated youtube and safari? No other smartphone has an integrated iPod. How do all those other "not as smart" phones make it into the smartphone category when they are missing all those smartphone features?

Geesh! Such geeks....

cameronjpu
Sep 4, 2007, 08:33 PM
What's with quoting wikipedia anyway? We do all know that wikipedia is edited by potentially the very same people who post on this board, right? What wikipedia's definition is depends on the most recent update and what their moderators determine to allow. It's not some definitive source of information just because the last 5 letters are pedia, eh?

DaftUnion
Sep 5, 2007, 02:19 AM
I'll be curious to see how many iPhones Apple will sell by the end of the year.

rjstanford
Sep 5, 2007, 08:31 AM
My wife lost her RAZR, and we got a free Nokia 6026. It isn't a bad phone, but it makes me realize how nice the iPhone really is. (We're waiting to see if a smaller iPhone comes out to get her one)Of course, the RAZR and the iPhone are almost exactly the same size, even though the iPhone does look significantly larger - and its hard to see how they could make it any smaller without compromising both web browsing and their suite of applets (which would now have to be resolution-aware when they can currently make full use of the known screen real-estate, as can all of the iPhone-specific websites out there).