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MacRumors
Sep 4, 2007, 09:51 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

NBC and Amazon announced today (http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20070904006367&newsLang=en) that NBC television content would now be available through Amazon's Unbox download service (http://unbox.amazon.com)..
Popular NBC shows now available on Amazon Unbox include the Emmy Award-winning series The Office, the critically acclaimed drama Heroes, and Emmy-nominated comedy 30 Rock. Beginning on September 10, Amazon Unbox customers can download for free -- in advance of their network premieres -- the pilot episodes of NBC’s new shows Bionic Woman, Chuck, Journeyman and Life. New episodes will be available on Amazon Unbox the day after they air on TV.

The shows are available for $1.99 per episode (same as iTunes), but also available as an entire season at 30% off. Apple and NBC had publicly disputed the terms of their agreement which led to the end of the NBC-iTunes contract.

Apple had claimed (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/08/31/apple-to-stop-selling-nbc-television-shows/) that NBC was demanding "double the wholesale price" for each NBC episode. NBC later claimed (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/09/01/nbc-disputes-apples-pricing-claims/) that the dispute centered around flexible packaging of shows together and piracy concerns.

Amazon's Unbox service requires (http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/ref=atv_dp_sysreq/105-0135426-9322066?%5Fencoding=UTF8&nodeId=3759) Window XP and is not compatible with the Macintosh.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/09/04/nbc-television-shows-now-available-on-amazon/)



siurpeeman
Sep 4, 2007, 09:53 PM
does anybody know how well amazon unbox does?

KingYaba
Sep 4, 2007, 09:55 PM
Those bastards.

R303blue
Sep 4, 2007, 09:56 PM
Such a poor move, why is it that these companies don't get the fact that at least iTunes doesn't shut out PC users? Back to the old-school times where Apple is left out in the cold. Tiring. And something seems odd with the public dispute between NBC and Apple, I would love to know the actual truth in that. :mad:

williedigital
Sep 4, 2007, 09:57 PM
so, this must have been planned in advance, with such short turn around time right?

Luis
Sep 4, 2007, 09:57 PM
Those bastards.

Couldn't have said it better myself!

bjmorgan
Sep 4, 2007, 09:58 PM
I, too, would like to know how Amazon's service has fared, seeing as I've never heard of it until this moment.

Why pull the plug on cross-platform service only to migrate to one that doesn't work with the Mac? I wonder what Amazon is making off of each purchase as compared to Apple?

gusapple
Sep 4, 2007, 10:01 PM
I don't know. This issue will probably result in either Apple and NBC "hugging it out" or Apple will not admit anything, loose tons of business, then eventually come back to NBC and "hug it out" too late.

levitynyc
Sep 4, 2007, 10:01 PM
WTF? I hate this not available on mac BS. Why should we be punished since we have good and reliable computers with a secure OS

siurpeeman
Sep 4, 2007, 10:03 PM
I don't know. This issue will probably result in either Apple and NBC "hugging it out" or Apple will not admit anything, loose tons of business, then eventually come back to NBC and "hug it out" too late.

or nbc realizing it isn't selling as many tv shows/seasons with unbox, losing overall viewership due to decreased time shifting. and then nbc comes back to itunes. who knows what's going to happen?

mac 2005
Sep 4, 2007, 10:03 PM
Well, there's still hope. NBC will offer its programs on its own website: hulu.com, I think.

Maybe the format there will be open to Macs and PCs.

That said, I can't understand why companies intentionally choose an exclusive format when it costs just as much to make the material available for most PC users. :rolleyes:

Muzzway
Sep 4, 2007, 10:04 PM
What the ...? NBC leaves iTunes and then enters a PC only service at the same price?

Anyone here going to rate this positive? Steve Ballmer, as usual?

dethl
Sep 4, 2007, 10:04 PM
The only thing Amazon's Unbox service has is the auto-downloading to your TiVO. And once its on the TiVO - DRM becomes a non-issue. NBC just shot themselves in the foot some more. I wonder if there's a proverbial foot for NBC to stand on now.

And I'm going to bet that the price stays at $1.99/ep because of Apple outing NBC before the new pricing was revealed. It's a damn shame NBC couldn't have stayed with Apple.

I'll still watch BSG - but thats about the only major NBC procduced show that I watch from 'em anyway. And I also TiVO it too. It's WAY too easy to rip a show off the TiVO nowadays.

hokullani
Sep 4, 2007, 10:04 PM
this is stupid, if tthey want to stick it to apple then they should at least use a service that is supported on a mac! otherwise they are just serving windows

hooch
Sep 4, 2007, 10:07 PM
I don't know...part of me thinks, "WTF! This sucks!". The other thinks NBC and Amazon will pay for not thinking of the mac community" which, by the way, is gaining in market share. And, when I mean gaining, they are gaining in the home and in the classroom where most of this market would be. Not the PCs that are sitting in the office.

kuribohbabylon
Sep 4, 2007, 10:07 PM
*ducks for cover prior to saying this*

Probably works in Parallels/VMWare :)

Not that I'm in any way shape or form on NBC's side on this one... I think they are making a mistake... but unfortunately we have to wait for time to tell which side was more right.

motulist
Sep 4, 2007, 10:13 PM
These days, having no Mac support means your product is much less likely to ever become a big success. Why? Because Mac users aren't afraid of trying something new - which is how many of us became Mac users. As a group I'd guess that a majority of early adopters of new technology are Mac users. If you don't get the early adopters to use your technology, then you'll never get the general computer users. Because most average tech users will only try out a new product once they feel that enough other people already use it.

No Mac support = few early adopters of your product = most people will never even give your product a try = your product fails.

Now, a company like Amazon can sidestep this chain of events to a certain degree because they already have a very well known name, so they may be able to swing enough atypical early adopters to try their product so that they might reach the critical mass of users needed to gain momentum with general users. But without Mac support they lose a major advantage to general acceptance. So only time will tell.

irmongoose
Sep 4, 2007, 10:16 PM
NBC has gone nuts with their idea of "stronger piracy protection". Unbox has these restrictions:

Shows bought from Unbox can be kept on two computers max and can be stored on up to two different (approved) media players.
Users cannot "mix" accounts, meaning that a PC cannot have authorized content purchased from two different accounts accessible at the same time

Now THAT is some damn restrictive DRM if I've ever heard of one. Only lunatics will spring for such a deal.
I say it's only time that will tell NBC how stunningly, utterly, amazingly asinine they are.



irmongoose

synth3tik
Sep 4, 2007, 10:17 PM
NBC still sucks

sminman
Sep 4, 2007, 10:19 PM
Bitches...:mad:

That is just a slap in Apple's face.

drimmen
Sep 4, 2007, 10:20 PM
Ack! The Office, 30 Rock, and Heroes were all shows I subscribed to on iTunes last season. As well as Battlestar which I think NBC owns as well, no?

I guess I'll keep my $1.99 per episode and look to "other" means of watching, and not via Amazon for obvious reasons.

e-coli
Sep 4, 2007, 10:21 PM
As far as addressing piracy, there has never been a piracy issue with videos purchased off iTMS. You can't even burn the damn things. They're totally locked.

And who cares if NBC isn't selling on iTunes anymore. What, are people going to throw away their iPods and iPhones and buy Zunes? Yeah right.

Everybody uses Miro and TV RSS anyhow. Idiots. Just taking a step backwards and encouraging piracy.

drater
Sep 4, 2007, 10:23 PM
good job NBC. Found a good picture of their Executives.

To the left is Steve Capus, in the middle is Jeff Zucker (aka: mourning star-jigga what?!), and to the right Lynn Calpeter.

Sandfleaz
Sep 4, 2007, 10:23 PM
We'll probably never know the straight scoop on this ... weird!

wnurse
Sep 4, 2007, 10:24 PM
What the ...? NBC leaves iTunes and then enters a PC only service at the same price?

Anyone here going to rate this positive? Steve Ballmer, as usual?

This proves NBC was telling the truth when they said it had nothing to do with doubling the price.. Wow, apple fans were jumping all over NBC for being greedy when all they wanted to do is have the flexibility to package their shows. They even selling the package for a discount. Notice they are not preventing anyone from buying a single show.. just if you want to buy a package, you can too.. itunes does this already with music.. you can buy a track or album. What was apple problem here?. Am i missing something?

hokullani
Sep 4, 2007, 10:25 PM
Boycott The ass holes at NBC!! oh wait they still have some good shows..... OK! Boycott NBC except for your favorite shows!!!! and don't look at the comercials.... that'll stick it to them!!

twoodcc
Sep 4, 2007, 10:28 PM
so, this must have been planned in advance, with such short turn around time right?

i wouldn't doubt it.

you won't see me giving any money to NBC, that's for sure

blindzero
Sep 4, 2007, 10:30 PM
This proves NBC was telling the truth when they said it had nothing to do with doubling the price.. Wow, apple fans were jumping all over NBC for being greedy when all they wanted to do is have the flexibility to package their shows. They even selling the package for a discount. Notice they are not preventing anyone from buying a single show.. just if you want to buy a package, you can too.. itunes does this already with music.. you can buy a track or album. What was apple problem here?. Am i missing something?

Not necessarily. We don't know what kind of hard tactic they were trying with Apple. They may have already wanted to pull out (like they did with Universal music). For all we know Amazon pulled them over with a bigger cut than Apple was giving or even a bribe (like HD-DVD). I can't imagine Apple lying about it if it would come out eventually. It just makes them look bad.

If it is about packaging though- you're right. Apple needs to reduce their cost of a "Season Pass" to less than 1.99 x # episodes. And so does Microsoft 360.

mambodancer
Sep 4, 2007, 10:31 PM
this is stupid, if tthey want to stick it to apple then they should at least use a service that is supported on a mac! otherwise they are just serving windows

What is even stupidier is that they would leave a market that they have, what, 30-40% of iTunes TV download market share and is supported on mp3 players that is 75%+ of world wide market share.

Will Hulu.com and Amazon.com support iTunes without a complicated conversion process? (iTunes being the entry point into iPods and iPhone).

And, in the end, they will be forced to sell the shows for $1.99 or less because the precedence has been set. This is the price consumers have come to expect and wont pay more for. (less, you bet).

Peace
Sep 4, 2007, 10:31 PM
[snippet]



Now THAT is some damn restrictive DRM if I've ever heard of one. Only lunatics will spring for such a deal.
I say it's only time that will tell NBC how stunningly, utterly, amazingly asinine they are.
irmongoose

Most people won't even know about the DRM restrictions until they try to move the tv show to a 3rd computer.

Who knows about the price structure.It may well be , even at double the price Apple was talking about NBC's share of the gross is still higher with Amazon than it would have been with Apple.

Tux Kapono
Sep 4, 2007, 10:32 PM
You can blame Beth Comstock (http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/115/final-word.html), President, Integrated Media, NBC. See her interview at the link - very hypocritical.

The reasoning is simple, NBC is the equivalent of Paramount going exclusive with the soon-to-be-extinct HD-DVD format. Why? Because they'll make more money in the short term. Who are the short term losers? Apple, yes, but mainly the customers who don't get to view content the way they want to.

What about the long term? You can expect a different executive running the show by then when they start losing loyal customers.

As long as Apple focuses on the customer above all else without getting financially desperate, they'll win in the long run.

I've been a loyal fan of NBC's for 30 years, but Beth's decision has me deciding to cut ties. I guess it's just as well, just about time, and a sign of the times, as TV networks are no longer the kings of content anymore anyway. Nice knowing you NBC, good luck in your next job Beth - it's obvious customers don't come first.

CalBoy
Sep 4, 2007, 10:34 PM
The only thing Amazon's Unbox service has is the auto-downloading to your TiVO. And once its on the TiVO - DRM becomes a non-issue. NBC just shot themselves in the foot some more. I wonder if there's a proverbial foot for NBC to stand on now.

And I'm going to bet that the price stays at $1.99/ep because of Apple outing NBC before the new pricing was revealed. It's a damn shame NBC couldn't have stayed with Apple.

I'll still watch BSG - but thats about the only major NBC procduced show that I watch from 'em anyway. And I also TiVO it too. It's WAY too easy to rip a show off the TiVO nowadays.

Interstingly enough, NBC's parent company, GE, also owns a minority stake in TiVO. NBC and Universal also have other special deals with Microsoft regarding media (a percentage of the Zune's profit is passed onto Universal, and of course MSNBC; I'm sure there are other deals, but we just don't know about them). I'm beginning to think that this was in the works far a long time. I think Gates and Balmer can't stand to see someone else with a good idea succeed.

This proves NBC was telling the truth when they said it had nothing to do with doubling the price.. Wow, apple fans were jumping all over NBC for being greedy when all they wanted to do is have the flexibility to package their shows. They even selling the package for a discount. Notice they are not preventing anyone from buying a single show.. just if you want to buy a package, you can too.. itunes does this already with music.. you can buy a track or album. What was apple problem here?. Am i missing something?

I disagree. I think NBC Universal has been trying to look for a way to break from Apple for a long time. This smoke screen is just another way to do it. I think that by the time Christmas rolls around, NBC Universal will be dying to come back to Apple. Many have tried to compete with iTunes, but none have succeeded. It's the only online store with enough fame and easy of use to be competitive. Sooner or later, people and companies will realize this, and we won't have to deal with stupid moves like this from NBC Universal.

balamw
Sep 4, 2007, 10:35 PM
Who knows about the price structure.It may well be , even at double the price Apple was talking about NBC's share of the gross is still higher with Amazon than it would have been with Apple.
For all we know Amazon may actually be losing money on each transaction as a way of building their (pitiful) market share to date.

FairPlay DRM is for the most part a non-issue and is thus transparent to the user. This kind of restrictive DRM is sad. Quite sad.

B

Porchland
Sep 4, 2007, 10:36 PM
NBC hasn't had a lot of good news the past few TV seasons and won't want to finish last again this season AND get bad press for jilting Apple while ABC, NBC and CBS all get high-fives from Steve Jobs.

NBC will snap out of it and get back in line before the end of the year. I'll be interested to see how seasons are priced for returning shows.

Also, the whole NBC thing makes me dump my guess of a few weeks ago that Apple would bring out a TV subscription that would allow users more universal access to TV shows.

chr1s60
Sep 4, 2007, 10:40 PM
I won't be buying any of the shows on Amazon. It just isn't where I shop so I will be waiting for NBC shows on DVD. As far as the pricing goes, NBC had no choice but to charge the same as iTunes. After defending their position against Apple, they couldn't really go and charge more on Amazon.

sterno74
Sep 4, 2007, 10:46 PM
I don't know. This issue will probably result in either Apple and NBC "hugging it out" or Apple will not admit anything, loose tons of business, then eventually come back to NBC and "hug it out" too late.

Your logic implies that Apple needs NBC, not the other way around. Apple has, correct me if I'm wrong, leverage the iTunes store as a way to sell iPods, computers, etc. It isn't a profit center for them. So, as long as the content that is available is a compelling part of the whole apple platform, Apple doesn't need to concern itself with any one company choosing to go elsewhere.

Fine, people who are on macs and using ipods won't be able to watch NBC shows. No big deal. They'll still buy iPods and macs. They'll still download shows from other networks. In the end I think this is more of a loss for NBC than it is for Apple.

kenaustus
Sep 4, 2007, 10:47 PM
Sorry, but I have to laugh at NBC's actions.

Announcing the Amazon the day before Steve J gets on stage and shows off new iPods? Probably all with improved screens for watching your favorite TV shows while commuting on a train or bus? That's gotta be a smart move.

As for keeping the $1.99 price on Amazon - is that with or without the commercials?

I just upgraded one of our cable boxes today - it will record shows, just like TiVo, and hold up to 30 hours. Gonna cost me an extra $5 per month. Since I drive when commuting I doubt if NBC/Amazon will be of any interest to me at all.

What would be fun to watch, however, is the NBC collective reaction to the new iPods tomorrow. Talk about bad timing on their part!

OhEsTen
Sep 4, 2007, 10:48 PM
This proves NBC was telling the truth when they said it had nothing to do with doubling the price.. Wow, apple fans were jumping all over NBC for being greedy when all they wanted to do is have the flexibility to package their shows. They even selling the package for a discount. Notice they are not preventing anyone from buying a single show.. just if you want to buy a package, you can too.. itunes does this already with music.. you can buy a track or album. What was apple problem here?. Am i missing something?

Well as some have already stated here - when NBC said "flexible pricing" how many actually believe they meant less. I think the reality here is a power play that may even include Microsoft. I think that NBC really was trying to be as a-holish as possible with Apple expecting Apple to pull the plug.

Just because NBC announces this deal with Amazon, doesn't mean that NBC wasn't being ridiculous in their negotiations with Apple. They're just trying to save face.

paja
Sep 4, 2007, 10:48 PM
Hey, we can get all of the NBC Content elsewhere and for free.

I don't think Hulu.com will offer the Mac Format either.

NBC perceives the Mac market as being too small to bother with.

Microsoft, NBC and Universal are out to do iTunes in. It's as simple as that.

They feel Apple needs to be put back into it's place. You know... that dusty spot in the back of the store.

Hopefully new iPods will blow people away!
____________________________________________
MBP 2.0Ghz / iPhone / :apple:TV / eyeTV 250+

louden
Sep 4, 2007, 10:54 PM
I love my macs, but come on. Apple deserves this. They're trying to act like an 800 pound gorilla and almost getting away with it. If anything, I'll bet Amazon's service will work on the mac soon - that way they won't shut out this part of the market.

If Apple wants to be a team player, maybe they should:
- allow for open DRM on iTunes
- support 64 bit Vista with iTunes (especially for the iPhone)

Until Apple plays like a better corporate citizen, I say let the competition take them down.

While these turf might make it more difficult for consumers in the short run, hopefully, there will be a light at the end of the tunnel. Maybe this will help usher in the era of OS independent and better interop of music and video services.

cocoma
Sep 4, 2007, 10:58 PM
Yeah, this is very dumb from NBC but hey, Apple's been refusing to be more flexible with the way they sell music, TV shows AND movies, maybe they need to change before going out of that particular business. Cable TV is subscription-based, so could be iTunes, partly. :apple: When it comes to mass media, iTunes is still just getting started and it could reach new hights but not with this kind of behavior, this is gonna hurt!

CalBoy
Sep 4, 2007, 11:01 PM
Hey, we can get all of the NBC Content elsewhere and for free.
Yeah, it's called television:p Seriously though, sometimes the good old VCR is worth unearthing (if only I had one:rolleyes:)

I love my macs, but come on. Apple deserves this. They're trying to act like an 800 pound gorilla and almost getting away with it. If anything, I'll bet Amazon's service will work on the mac soon - that way they won't shut out this part of the market.

If Apple wants to be a team player, maybe they should:
- allow for open DRM on iTunes
- support 64 bit Vista with iTunes (especially for the iPhone)

Until Apple plays like a better corporate citizen, I say let the competition take them down.

While these turf might make it more difficult for consumers in the short run, hopefully, there will be a light at the end of the tunnel. Maybe this will help usher in the era of OS independent and better interop of music and video services.

Truth be told, if Apple is pissing other companies off, then it's probably better for the general consumer. What makes companies unhappy usually makes consumers happy. That's a mighty fine corporate citizen in my book.

hokullani
Sep 4, 2007, 11:02 PM
If Apple wants to be a team player, maybe they should:
- allow for open DRM on iTunes
- support 64 bit Vista with iTunes (especially for the iPhone)



umm i think it is NBC wanting to force apple to allow bundle shows, which is stupid and is just going to piss people off, i think the DRM on iTunes works fine, and people say iTunes does not work for things like Rim players, well then buy and iPod, obviously iTunes will only work with an iPod, just like the zune market place only works with a zune. And the Vista thing, i'm sure microsoft has a part to play in making this work,

NBC is just being a little brat because they didn't get exactly what they want, and since they saw that they wouldn't get what they wanted (no matter who they sold on) they went to amazon just to piss apple off.

apple shouldn't be flexible with prices, as long as they are keeping them at a low reasonable price then there is no reason apple should move on their price. The companies are just getting greedy and they should be punished for this and if that means they can not sell on one of the largest most known media sellers because they are unreasonable, then sucks for them hopefully they will learn their lesson.
I think apple did the right thing telling NBC to screw off that they would not allow stupid bundles and 4.99 shows, go apple!

paja
Sep 4, 2007, 11:02 PM
This proves NBC was telling the truth when they said it had nothing to do with doubling the price.. Wow, apple fans were jumping all over NBC for being greedy when all they wanted to do is have the flexibility to package their shows. They even selling the package for a discount. Notice they are not preventing anyone from buying a single show.. just if you want to buy a package, you can too.. itunes does this already with music.. you can buy a track or album. What was apple problem here?. Am i missing something?

I think this proves that NBC was willing to play games with Apple in order to get out of their agreement with Apple. The contract with Apple runs through December at $1.99 per episode. Lets see what happens with the prices on Amazon and Hulu.com after that agreement ends shall we.

In any case I'm sure Apple will survive without NBC.
Personnaly I could care less as I'm already downoading NBC Shows for free and moving them to my :apple:TV and iPhone. I'm sure most here will do likewise.

nagromme
Sep 4, 2007, 11:05 PM
The DRM limitations with Unbox are insane (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070904-after-ditching-apple-nbc-signs-up-with-the-small-guy-amazon-unbox.html), and the lack of iPod and Mac compatibility make it useless to me--and probably to MOST online media purchasers.

However, NBC wanted out of iTunes, and they have achieved that :p

I don't see Apple's and NBC's statements as particularly contradictory: Apple says NBC wanted to MORE than double the wholesale price. NBC says they wanted "flexibility" to charge different amounts--which of course means an overall increase or NBC wouldn't care. NBC also wanted more money from Apple than they now want from Unbox. This makes sense for many reasons: a) Unbox earns a "favor" due to their draconian DRM, b) Unbox makes no money on iPods, which NBC feels are used heavily for piracy and wants a cut from, and c) Unbox doesn't have Apple's power and success which frighten NBC.

NBC likely didn't WANT to stay on iTunes at any price. The ease-of-use and consumer appeal of iTunes are a BAD thing in NBC's view, because they give Apple power.

It's no surprise that NBC's "replacement" for iTunes costs the same as iTunes, even while NBC demanded more-than-double from Apple.

It may have gone something like this:

NBC: Apple, take insane spyware steps in a futile attempt to block people from putting pirated content on iPods, OR else pay us a share of every iPod, OR else pay us more than double per show. (And let us bundle shows to make people buy stuff they don't want.)

Apple: Buh!

Apple PR: NBC wants to more than double the price that all other networks accept! (A half-truth)

NBC PR: Nuh-uh! We were only concerned about piracy and bundling! (A quarter-truth)

(I would guess that the bundling is a lesser issue, just something NBC can mention as a distraction/excuse, but still one which neither consumers nor Apple would be likely to accept.)

Now... I wonder if Unbox + random PlaysForSure devices will be as easy to use as iTunes ;)

GFLPraxis
Sep 4, 2007, 11:06 PM
does anybody know how well amazon unbox does?

All I know is that it is stupid; a movie you buy will not play on an iPod, a PSP, a Creative, a Zune, or any portable player. That movie you bought can not be burned to a DVD, and it can't even play on a Macintosh or Linux PC. It is locked to only being able to be used with Windows XP and Vista, PERIOD. No portable devices or anything. None of the streaming capabilities of iTunes.

icechunk
Sep 4, 2007, 11:11 PM
If someone has a TiVo, why would they buy shows from amazon, that are currently on the air? Wouldn't you just set TiVo to record them? That is one section of sales that NBC will lose.

I use iTunes for current shows because I don't have a DVR/Tivo and instead of paying a monthly fee for these devices, I just use iTunes. Spread a few shows over the whole season and its the same as the subscription fee for the TiVo.

I have my setup (mac-appletv-iphone) working just the way I like it. I guess I'll just use netflix and rip those NBC shows.

bluedevil14
Sep 4, 2007, 11:14 PM
this is ridiculous. ethier apple or NBC is lying, ethier way it doesnt turn out well for the consumer. If NBC is correct, I don't see the problem with discounting seasons in terms of messing up simplicity. All seasons cost different amounts because of the different number of episodes. Hopefully this will be resolved, but it doesn't look likely.

balamw
Sep 4, 2007, 11:14 PM
Unbox makes no money on iPods
Actually isn't Amazon one of the biggest iPod resellers?

Over half of the top 25 bestsellers in the MP3 player category are iPods, and thus incompatible with Unbox.

It'll be interesting to see what comes of Amazon's music download service/site/portal due this month or next.

If someone has a TiVo, why would they buy shows from amazon, that are currently on the air? Wouldn't you just set TiVo to record them?

The idea behind TiVo/Amazon partnership is that you can essentially get "On Demand" programming from a much larger library than your TiVo's HDD. Say you want to catch up on a new show you found out about mid-season. (As I did with Heroes, though I watched my reruns on NBC.COM). I do wish :apple:TV would offer somethign like this and NOT be tied to my iTunes libraries. Unfortunately DirecTV has neutered my TiVo and I don't get any of the nice features standalone TiVo users do...

B

cowm007
Sep 4, 2007, 11:15 PM
So NBC cites piracy concerns for the move, then switches to Amazon Unbox with PlaysForSure DRM which has been cracked numerous times before. If anything, this makes it easy now for me to create DRM free files out of downloads. At least Apple's DRM is fair and relatively secure for them.

CalBoy
Sep 4, 2007, 11:16 PM
I guess I'll just use netflix and rip those NBC shows.

Now now, you don't want to go around annoucing your criminal activities on the internet;) (no matter how much we agree with your sentiments).

paja
Sep 4, 2007, 11:16 PM
All I know is that it is stupid; a movie you buy will not play on an iPod, a PSP, a Creative, a Zune, or any portable player. That movie you bought can not be burned to a DVD, and it can't even play on a Macintosh or Linux PC. It is locked to only being able to be used with Windows XP and Vista, PERIOD. No portable devices or anything. None of the streaming capabilities of iTunes.

Wow, that's insanely stupid. NBC and these guys are truly living in the dark ages!

Apple should do a Netflix thing (all being digital downloads of course).

robbyx
Sep 4, 2007, 11:19 PM
Nevermind the Mac market. Of course, as a Mac user, I'm ticked about this, but the real boneheaded move here is shutting out iPod/iPhone (and, to a lesser extent, AppleTV) owners. What good is Unboxed for them? Who wants to watch TV on a computer screen? It's idiotic.

Apple is only company offering a simple and convenient way to consume media online. NBC is being remarkably shortsighted. BitTorrent, anyone?

CJD2112
Sep 4, 2007, 11:20 PM
Amazon's Unbox service requires Window XP and is not compatible with the Macintosh.

Wow, that last part is very interesting...

robbyx
Sep 4, 2007, 11:20 PM
Now now, you don't want to go around annoucing your criminal activities on the internet;) (no matter how much we agree with your sentiments).

I'd like to know how ripping a DVD of television shows that are broadcast - without DRM - over the air is illegal? All this copyright madness is out of control. Screw the big media companies. They have nothing but contempt for their customers.

balamw
Sep 4, 2007, 11:23 PM
Apple is only company offering a simple and convenient way to consume media online.

Not quite. Amazon's partnership with TiVo means you have a way of delivering content straight to your TV more conveniently than iTunes+:apple:TV.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/video/tivo

Now, if only it actually worked reliably every time...

B

gusapple
Sep 4, 2007, 11:24 PM
Your logic implies that Apple needs NBC, not the other way around. Apple has, correct me if I'm wrong, leverage the iTunes store as a way to sell iPods, computers, etc. It isn't a profit center for them. So, as long as the content that is available is a compelling part of the whole apple platform, Apple doesn't need to concern itself with any one company choosing to go elsewhere.

Fine, people who are on macs and using ipods won't be able to watch NBC shows. No big deal. They'll still buy iPods and macs. They'll still download shows from other networks. In the end I think this is more of a loss for NBC than it is for Apple.

I know, I know. This subject could be visa-versa! :):D

CalBoy
Sep 4, 2007, 11:25 PM
I'd like to know how ripping a DVD of television shows that are broadcast - without DRM - over the air is illegal? All this copyright madness is out of control. Screw the big media companies. They have nothing but contempt for their customers.

I believe the Supreme Court decided in Sony Corp. of America v. Universal City Studios, Inc. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Corp._v._Universal_City_Studios) that using a recording to watch it later is ok, but that's if it's broadcasted. icechunk implied that he was going to use his Neflix DVD rentals to burn copies, which is a clear crime (the warning tells you so:p).

nagromme
Sep 4, 2007, 11:26 PM
Actually isn't Amazon one of the biggest iPod resellers?

I would imagine so.

So Unbox makes no money selling iPods... but it probably does LOSE money NOT selling iPods :D

Apple should do a Netflix thing (all being digital downloads of course).

Yes please!

BUT... please match Netflix's broad selection (no easy feat) AND please rent per-movie, NOT a monthly subscription. I quit Netflix, but if they offered pay-per-movie as you go--the way any old movie rental from a store works--I'd be back in a flash!

Wow, that last part is very interesting...

The reason Unbox is not Mac-compatible is that it uses Microsoft's DRM system. (Or... one of them. As we know from Zune vs. PlaysForSure, Microsoft's DRM products aren't even compatible with EACH OTHER!) Amazon and NBC fear Apple even more than they fear Microsoft.

Not quite. Amazon's partnership with TiVo means you have a way of delivering content straight to your TV more conveniently than iTunes+:apple:TV.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/video/tivo

Now, if only it actually worked reliably every time...

B

And if only it worked with PORTABLE devices :o

robbyx
Sep 4, 2007, 11:32 PM
Not quite. Amazon's partnership with TiVo means you have a way of delivering content straight to your TV more conveniently than iTunes+:apple:TV.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/video/tivo

Now, if only it actually worked reliably every time...

B

Trouble is, Tivo isn't doing so well in the market. Plus, iTunes offers a more compelling option for people like me who are sick and tired of paying $100 each month for a steady stream of crap. I refuse to do it any longer. With iTunes, I buy what I want to watch, it is downloaded automatically, and I can watch it via AppleTV anytime I like. It's an excellent system.

I would have bought season passes to NBC shows for next season. Instead, I'll have to rely on other means of acquiring my programming. Idiots.

robbyx
Sep 4, 2007, 11:37 PM
I believe the Supreme Court decided in Sony Corp. of America v. Universal City Studios, Inc. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Corp._v._Universal_City_Studios) that using a recording to watch it later is ok, but that's if it's broadcasted. icechunk implied that he was going to use his Neflix DVD rentals to burn copies, which is a clear crime (the warning tells you so:p).

Not familiar with that ruling, but I believe you. :-)

Isn't is sick how TV was once a free, advertiser-supported medium. Then came cable and we starting paying a bit for some premium channels. Now we're paying out the nose for cable or dish - AND we're supposed to pay for the programming AGAIN on our iPods and AGAIN on DVD, etc. It's simply insane.

I really could care less what happens to the big media companies at this point. They are so ridiculously greedy. Long live BitTorrent and MacTheRipper!!!

CommodityFetish
Sep 4, 2007, 11:39 PM
Sorry, but I have to laugh at NBC's actions.

Announcing the Amazon the day before Steve J gets on stage and shows off new iPods? Probably all with improved screens for watching your favorite TV shows while commuting on a train or bus? That's gotta be a smart move.

What would be fun to watch, however, is the NBC collective reaction to the new iPods tomorrow. Talk about bad timing on their part!

Oh you can bet NBC knows what they're doing. The timing is no coincidence. They're trying to take the wind out of Apple's iPod announcement sails ("What I can't get my favorite show?"), and steal some of the publicity for themselves.

Pretty savvy move in the short run. Whether it hurts them or apple more - only time will tell. In the meantime not such good news for consumers who now have fewer options. Such is the quasi-monopoly economics game, yes? :rolleyes:

iLunar
Sep 4, 2007, 11:44 PM
Trouble is, Tivo isn't doing so well in the market. Plus, iTunes offers a more compelling option for people like me who are sick and tired of paying $100 each month for a steady stream of crap. I refuse to do it any longer. With iTunes, I buy what I want to watch, it is downloaded automatically, and I can watch it via AppleTV anytime I like. It's an excellent system.

I would have bought season passes to NBC shows for next season. Instead, I'll have to rely on other means of acquiring my programming. Idiots.

Pretty much. I am over the subscription model the cable companies/networks keep feeding us. I'm done paying monthly cable charges for content I never watch. Now I get Netflix, watch the TV shows I want, or buy stuff off iTunes. If NBC isn't in iTunes, I probably won't watch their shows until they're released on DVD, or not at all.

Subscriptions are great money makers for companies, but they are horrible for customers. Its an old model, and in this day of on demand, its time to be done with it.

CalBoy
Sep 4, 2007, 11:47 PM
Not familiar with that ruling, but I believe you. :-) I gave you the link so you could read it for yourself:)

Isn't is sick how TV was once a free, advertiser-supported medium. Then came cable and we starting paying a bit for some premium channels. Now we're paying out the nose for cable or dish - AND we're supposed to pay for the programming AGAIN on our iPods and AGAIN on DVD, etc. It's simply insane.

I really could care less what happens to the big media companies at this point. They are so ridiculously greedy. Long live BitTorrent and MacTheRipper!!!

To be fair, you can still get free TV; it's quality may not be great, but it's there. Nonetheless, I too feel a bit bitter towards media companies. Not to be philosophical or anything, but are we any better if we steal from them? Sure they're greedy bastards, but when we rip DVDs from Netflix or use a torrent, don't we become as bad as them?...Naw, enjoy your free media:p

Ember Whimsy
Sep 4, 2007, 11:48 PM
NBC can suck my ... toes. XD

I'm not going to be supporting them at all - I refuse to even tune in live for their shows from now on. I WILL continue to support iTunes and the great shows they have on there. Like Dexter, awesome show <3, and of course, it's not an NBC one...

I do like Amazon but I always thought their Unbox service sucked due to their restrictive policies... oh yeah, and how it only runs on Windows.

nagromme
Sep 4, 2007, 11:48 PM
To be fair, you can still get free TV; it's quality may not be great, but it's there.

With my EyeTV Hybrid and free digital high def--the quality IS great! :) And automatically exported to iPod too.

CalBoy
Sep 4, 2007, 11:51 PM
With my EyeTV Hybrid and free digital high def--the quality IS great! :) And automatically exported to iPod too.

And here we are paying Comcast. Seriously, sometimes it sickens me. We don't even have a second cable company to offer us a competing rate!:mad: Microsoft doesn't look so bad when you compare it to Comcast.

robbyx
Sep 5, 2007, 12:11 AM
Not to be philosophical or anything, but are we any better if we steal from them? Sure they're greedy bastards, but when we rip DVDs from Netflix or use a torrent, don't we become as bad as them?...Naw, enjoy your free media:p

What's wrong with philosophical? I like it. :-)

Of course I see your point - and agree with it. I own over 1500 CDs. I love supporting artists.

When it comes to TV, though, I feel a bit differently. Essentially anything on network TV is free. They're giving it away. I can tune in for free.

Netflix *buys* DVDs from the media companies that are *giving* the shows away over the air. I rent one of those and watch it. How is that any different from just tuning in?

So, ultimately, what's wrong with BitTorrent? The networks are *giving* away their content over the air - in both SD and HD. I can rent it legally via NetFlix. Why can't I just download it? I'm not abusing the copyright. I'm not using the content to make money. I'm not changing it. I just want to watch it.

Quite honestly, I think the media companies have an exaggerated sense of the importance of their product. Music is one thing. We live with music. We listen to it over and over. It's woven into our lives. TV is temporary. It serves its purpose to entertain in the short-term, but beyond that, who really cares? How many times are you going to watch a TV series? Seriously. A handful, even if you're a die-hard fan.

Sorry, tangent. :-)

Anyway, I have a problem with giving away something on the one hand, then turning around and acting insufferable when, on the other, someone obtains it via another mechanism - with the sole intention of enjoying it, not using or profiting from it.

rctshack
Sep 5, 2007, 12:21 AM
Has anyone thought yet that maybe Steve Jobs will announce DMR free iTunes tomorrow? NBC does pull out suddenly right before this sep. 5th event that deals with new ipods, which go hand in hand with itunes. He wrote that open letter to the music companies earlier this year... so maybe this is where it is leading. NBC does claim "piracy concerns" as one of the factors. Just thought maybe that will be the scenario?

sonictonic
Sep 5, 2007, 12:22 AM
F- YOU NBC!

You jackasses won't see another penny from me!

LethalWolfe
Sep 5, 2007, 12:22 AM
Truth be told, if Apple is pissing other companies off, then it's probably better for the general consumer. What makes companies unhappy usually makes consumers happy. That's a mighty fine corporate citizen in my book.
If that's your benchmark for being a fine corporate citizen MS must be one of the best corporate citizens ever. ;)

Isn't is sick how TV was once a free, advertiser-supported medium. Then came cable and we starting paying a bit for some premium channels. Now we're paying out the nose for cable or dish - AND we're supposed to pay for the programming AGAIN on our iPods and AGAIN on DVD, etc. It's simply insane.

Cancel your cable/satellite service and you can stop the insanity and go back to the good old days of free, OTA TV.

And here we are paying Comcast. Seriously, sometimes it sickens me. We don't even have a second cable company to offer us a competing rate!:mad: Microsoft doesn't look so bad when you compare it to Comcast.
All this and more thanks to the Telecommunications Act of 1996. If the farmer takes the door off the chicken coop how much can you really blame the wolf when the hens start to disappear?


Lethal

rva1
Sep 5, 2007, 12:34 AM
Think about it: The iPod is by far the largest and fastest growing device for playing music and videos. (And who know what else after tomorrow!). Add to that that Mac sales and new users have increased dramatically in the past few years as people grow tired of the short comings of Windows. Why Universal, or NBC would want out of the good grace of, not Apple (as it might seem), but the MILLIONS of end users, aka "ALL OF US", is beyond me.

I did have one thought on Friday, when the NBC announcement was first made, that might make some sense: Could NBC or Universal consider Apple's solid alliance with Disney via Pixar make them the competition/adversary? If so, isn't it as short-sighted as it would appear?

I say 2 thumbs WAY DOWN to NBC! :(

VanNess
Sep 5, 2007, 12:34 AM
If Apple wants to be a team player, maybe they should:
- allow for open DRM on iTunes

I think a better idea (and this goes to your "interoperability" premise) is to drop DRM altogether. Period.

Let's back up a second. Do you really think the reason iTunes has been so successful to date has anything at all to do with DRM (Fairplay)? Think about it.

The only reason Apple incorporates DRM is because the content providers (save for one recent exception) have insisted on it, a fact Apple has made clear on numerous public occasions since the launch of the iTunes Music Store. I don't think Jobs was posturing when he blogged that Apple would drop DRM in a heartbeat if only the content providers agreed. It just makes business sense because the only thing that DRM has contributed to the overall food chain in the digital download business is a lot of bad publicity. That's the complete, total legacy of DRM's contribution to the business, lock, stock and barrel.

So why has iTunes been so successful? Well, you think the answer to that is pretty obvious, and it's most likely obvious to most iTunes/iPod users, but apparently not to the morons who run NBC. And since NBC likes to talk about about piracy, well, let's talk about it...

Back when the iTunes Music Store first launched, who was the competition? If you answered nobody, you're wrong. iTunes competition in the beginning was piracy, a far more formidable competitor than any of the present legitimate download services combined. How do you compete against piracy? With DRM? DRM is a laughable non-solution (too easily stripped), and arguably, a factor towards ongoing piracy if brainless execs at companies like NBC Universal have their way.

Apple reasoned that access to content via piracy wasn't a user friendly experience overall (quality of content issues and poorly implemented methods for finding what your looking for) and piracy hadn't yet evolved into something that would be considered a mass market. Apple's trump card was it's expertise in ease of use and could deliver, via iTunes and the iPod, a very robust end user experience for music - starting with the consumer's desire for any particular song right down to pumping that very song into the consumer's eardrums. Almost instantaneously. What Apple delivered with iTunes/iPod was unmatched by any piracy network back then, and is still unmatched by any content delivery system over the internet to date. Well, That took care of the first half of the problem.

The second half of the problem was getting consumers to pay. Here again, Apple was smart enough to realize that if you price the content fairly, along with offering a utterly simple, first class software/hardware ecosystem that virtually anyone could use, consumers would bite. They would open their wallets and pay a fair, reasonable price. Over three billions songs sold and counting later, Apple was proven right. And what role did DRM specifically play in this success? Nothing. Zero. Zilch. It was nothing more than security blanket for dim-witted music industry execs who never understood the concept that fair pricing is, by leaps and bounds, the most potent weapon against piracy. Arguably, it was unfair pricing (exorbitant CD prices and a few too many rip-off CDs with just one or two good songs and the rest filler) that was a major factor in the rise of music piracy to begin with.

So I stand up and cheer Apple for not letting letting a bunch of neandrothals at NBC Universal lecture them about piracy - a subject in which they are clearly and utterly clueless.

Kick the bums off iTunes along with their so-called flexable (aka ripoff) pricing canard that these creeps have in mind for iTunes customers, because that's all it is - a canard. Whether it's an overt rise in price to the consumer for no added value whatsoever , or a rise in price and no added value by construct, at the end of the day it's still just a rise in price (and a significant one) for no other reason than pure and simple greed (not to mention the obvious, incendiary flirtation with piracy on Apple's watch).

I'd save the lecture on being a good, responsible, corporate citizen (not to mention just being smart business people) for NBC Universal, not Apple.

pinksalmon
Sep 5, 2007, 12:38 AM
all i have to say to NBC is that ill be spending some quality time on handbrake

CalBoy
Sep 5, 2007, 12:40 AM
If that's your benchmark for being a fine corporate citizen MS must be one of the best corporate citizens ever. ;)
Point taken. Nonetheless, when companies get too happy, I get worried.


All this and more thanks to the Telecommunications Act of 1996. If the farmer takes the door off the chicken coop how much can you really blame the wolf when the hens start to disappear?

I guess that has a great deal of truth to it, but, it doesn't mean that the wolf is any less immoral for doing it.

Ironically, on a seperate tangent, if the farmer does have a door that's open on the chicken coop, he's free to call it "free range." How's that for consumer protection?

LethalWolfe
Sep 5, 2007, 01:02 AM
Point taken. Nonetheless, when companies get too happy, I get worried.
Agreed.



I guess that has a great deal of truth to it, but, it doesn't mean that the wolf is any less immoral for doing it.

Ironically, on a seperate tangent, if the farmer does have a door that's open on the chicken coop, he's free to call it "free range." How's that for consumer protection?
I'm not trying to give Comcast, or any other company, a get out of jail free card by any means. I just think that if people are going to get pissed they should know who all they need to get pissed at. :D


Lethal

skittlebrau79
Sep 5, 2007, 01:10 AM
What's wrong with philosophical? I like it. :-)

Of course I see your point - and agree with it. I own over 1500 CDs. I love supporting artists.
So you like supporting artists, but you won't support the artists that create television? How is it any different? Both are owned by major companies, unless you support indy artists (and there are indie production companies too.) People (like me) make a living off the entertainment industry. No I'm not a producer or actor or director, just somebody in the tech business in Hollywood, but people downloading a show directly impacts my company.

When it comes to TV, though, I feel a bit differently. Essentially anything on network TV is free. They're giving it away. I can tune in for free.
So, if it's on HBO, it's not OK to pirate it but broadcast nets are OK? This argument makes no sense. If that's the way you feel, all TV should become a paid service, and then you have no right to pirate anything. Great, thanks for ruining TV for the rest of us.

You had to pay for cable, and a big part of that cable bill went to the media companies as a fee for re-broadcasting their content. If you have an NBC affiliate, then they paid NBC a handsome fee to re-broadcast NBC's shows, and in return, NBC gave them a bunch of air time to use as they please. So you see, somebody is ALWAYS paying NBC to broadcast their content—you never get it for "free". Sure you never pay anything to your local NBC affiliate, but they sure paid for it, and they make YOU pay for it by watching even more commercials.

Netflix *buys* DVDs from the media companies that are *giving* the shos away over the air. I rent one of those and watch it. How is that any different from just tuning in?
Easy, Netflix pays NBC $200 once. You think that justifies you and 10,000 other people ripping it and watching it any number of times?
If that's the case, then how come I can't just download a copy of Leopard that somebody bought and posted on Bittorrent? After all, SOMEBODY paid for it, so that gives me the right to use it—right?

So, ultimately, what's wrong with BitTorrent? The networks are *giving* away their content over the air - in both SD and HD. I can rent it legally via NetFlix. Why can't I just download it? I'm not abusing the copyright. I'm not using the content to make money. I'm not changing it. I just want to watch it.
You can watch it once, over the air. If you can't because you don't have cable or an affiliate in your area then tough luck. I can't watch HBO either because I don't pony up $15 a month, so I can't watch their shows. But by your logic, I can, as long as Netflix paid for the DVDs already and somebody else posted them online. Just because you're not using it to make money doesn't make it OK. I don't use iLife to make money, so does that mean I can just download it for free?

Quite honestly, I think the media companies have an exaggerated sense of the importance of their product. Music is one thing. We live with music. We listen to it over and over. It's woven into our lives. TV is temporary. It serves its purpose to entertain in the short-term, but beyond that, who really cares? How many times are you going to watch a TV series? Seriously. A handful, even if you're a die-hard fan.
You have a seriously warped look on DVD sales then. Why do you think DVD sales make up the majority of a movie's profits these days? Why is every show on earth on DVD as soon as it makes it past the 13 episode season order? They are HUGELY popular. Evidently, a lot of people want to watch TV more than once.

Anyway, I have a problem with giving away something on the one hand, then turning around and acting insufferable when, on the other, someone obtains it via another mechanism - with the sole intention of enjoying it, not using or profiting from it.
I have a huge problem with people thinking they are entitled to something, and when they can't get it, they just download it. I suppose I should just download any software I want, because I don't intend to "profit from it".

Sorry but I really hate people downloading DVDs and TV shows from the Internet and justifying it, but then ride their high horse about Apple. By most people's standards, downloading anything you want from the Internet is OK as long as Apple didn't make it. Now excuse me while I go search for Aperture, iLife 08, Leopard pre-release builds and Final Cut Pro online...thepiratebay.org is calling.

princigalli
Sep 5, 2007, 01:18 AM
That's too bad because I liked some of their shows. Now of course I'm not going to start downloading with Amazon. I don't know anybody that downloads video from Amazon, just like nobody buys music from Sony's service, whatever it's called.

As usual, many of us will go back to the good old file sharing and torrents to get our favorite shows. Let's just hope that the pirates will be nice enough to encode videos in h.264 instead of some strange linux compatible codecs :)

OhEsTen
Sep 5, 2007, 01:25 AM
I have a huge problem with people thinking they are entitled to something, and when they can't get it, they just download it.

I think most people that talk about downloading NBC shows are doing it more so out of protest to NBC's actions. It's not a sense of entitlement. I'm not advocating that myself, I'm just saying.

NBC's actions are idiotic. They want a ridiculous amount of money for a revenue stream that has only been what... a couple of years old? Now they partner with a company like Amazon - which unnecessarily excludes Mac users from using their service. That is crap.

The only leverage people have in voicing their opinion is by using their wallets. While downloading episodes for free can get you into trouble I think that is what people feel is their "protestacular".

Now if only there was a way to download gas from bittorrent....

rpchan
Sep 5, 2007, 01:25 AM
i am grumpy. I got every episode of Heroes last years on iTunes the day after. I guess I will have to buy a dvr (not really going to happen) or else illegally download them now.

VanNess
Sep 5, 2007, 01:26 AM
just like nobody buys music from Sony's service, whatever it's called.

Well, it was called Sony "Connect" but now it looks like it will be known as Sony "Disconnect (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070830-sony-euthanizes-sony-connect.html)."

irun5k
Sep 5, 2007, 01:47 AM
Sorry, but I have to laugh at NBC's actions.

Announcing the Amazon the day before Steve J gets on stage and shows off new iPods? Probably all with improved screens for watching your favorite TV shows while commuting on a train or bus? That's gotta be a smart move.


Hadn't thought of that, but you're right. Say what you like but the age of digital media hasn't been pioneered and isn't being pioneered by Microsoft, Amazon, Wal*Mart, etc.

I don't mind spending money on occasion at the iTMS, because I feel like I'm adding to a library of things I'll have for a long time. I feel like if I buy media from some other outlet, it will end up in some long lost folder on my computer and eventually the DRM will go extinct and it will all be gone.

ddubbo
Sep 5, 2007, 01:59 AM
These days, having no Mac support means your product is much less likely to ever become a big success. Why? Because Mac users aren't afraid of trying something new - which is how many of us became Mac users. As a group I'd guess that a majority of early adopters of new technology are Mac users. If you don't get the early adopters to use your technology, then you'll never get the general computer users. Because most average tech users will only try out a new product once they feel that enough other people already use it.

No Mac support = few early adopters of your product = most people will never even give your product a try = your product fails.

Now, a company like Amazon can sidestep this chain of events to a certain degree because they already have a very well known name, so they may be able to swing enough atypical early adopters to try their product so that they might reach the critical mass of users needed to gain momentum with general users. But without Mac support they lose a major advantage to general acceptance. So only time will tell.
Wake Up!Still more than 90% of people use PC.Besides, what is new technology in watching TV series? Don't trust all the BS from Jobs Congregation.

DaftUnion
Sep 5, 2007, 02:10 AM
Argh. This is so frustrating that they don't sell stuff on iTunes and then turn around and sell it on Amazon.

robbyx
Sep 5, 2007, 02:10 AM
Cry me a river...

So you like supporting artists, but you won't support the artists that create television? How is it any different?

I think I laid out my argument in a pretty clear manner...


So, if it's on HBO, it's not OK to pirate it but broadcast nets are OK? This argument makes no sense.

Actually, I think it makes perfect sense. They are giving it away for FREE over the airwaves. I'd be happy to download shows from the networks directly with commercials. I'm also more than happy to pay $1.99 per episode to not have to deal with commercials.

As for HBO and *PAID* networks, yes, I think I should have to pay for it. ONCE. Not around every corner as these greedy media companies constantly try to pull money out of my pocket again and again for the same mediocre programming.

You had to pay for cable, and a big part of that cable bill went to the media companies as a fee for re-broadcasting their content. If you have an NBC affiliate, then they paid NBC a handsome fee to re-broadcast NBC's shows, and in return, NBC gave them a bunch of air time to use as they please. So you see, somebody is ALWAYS paying NBC to broadcast their content—you never get it for "free". Sure you never pay anything to your local NBC affiliate, but they sure paid for it, and they make YOU pay for it by watching even more commercials.

Commercials? Isn't that what a PVR is for? I haven't watched a commercial in years.

But I get your point.

If that's the case, then how come I can't just download a copy of Leopard that somebody bought and posted on Bittorrent? After all, SOMEBODY paid for it, so that gives me the right to use it—right?

I don't think so. If Apple gives it away for free in the Apple Store, but sues me into oblivion for downloading it, then I'd feel differently.

I don't use iLife to make money, so does that mean I can just download it for free?

It's not about making money with it. It's about giving it away over the airwaves on the one hand and charging for it on the other. I get your argument about the affiliates and advertising. I'd be happy to download it with commercials. Same difference.

My point isn't to say that I don't care about the content creators. I care about how GREEDY they have become. That's why I like iTunes. It's FAIR. I pay a modest fee to buy my programming. I have it delivered without commercials. I watch it where I want (TV, iPod, computer screen). And life is good - and simple.

But if you're going to stick it to me over and over again, force me to buy ridiculously locked-down files, force me to buy a file for my portable media device as well as a DVD for my TV, all the while paying my cable bill, I'm sorry, I don't have any respect for that.

You have a seriously warped look on DVD sales then. Why do you think DVD sales make up the majority of a movie's profits these days? Why is every show on earth on DVD as soon as it makes it past the 13 episode season order? They are HUGELY popular. Evidently, a lot of people want to watch TV more than once.

I don't doubt it. I didn't say anything about sales. I said that industry has an exaggerated sense of the importance of its product. I'm sure they sell a lot of DVDs. I doubt many people watch them more than once or twice. I own quite a few DVDs and there are only a few that I've watched more than once. It didn't keep me from spending $19.99 for the privilege of watching the movie once, though...

Sorry but I really hate people downloading DVDs and TV shows from the Internet and justifying it, but then ride their high horse about Apple. By most people's standards, downloading anything you want from the Internet is OK as long as Apple didn't make it. Now excuse me while I go search for Aperture, iLife 08, Leopard pre-release builds and Final Cut Pro online...thepiratebay.org is calling.

Seriously, what is your problem? I didn't even mention Apple, nor did I bring software piracy into the argument at all. I'm sick and tired of the TV and movie industries trying to force me to spend A LOT of money on throw-away media. Sell it to me at a fair price and don't restrict the h*ll out of how I can view it, and I'm HAPPY to pay. But your reaction is a perfect example of why the industry can't get it together. You think the system is good and fair. Sorry buddy, it's not. It sucks for the consumer.

ddubbo
Sep 5, 2007, 02:10 AM
This proves NBC was telling the truth when they said it had nothing to do with doubling the price.. Wow, apple fans were jumping all over NBC for being greedy when all they wanted to do is have the flexibility to package their shows. They even selling the package for a discount. Notice they are not preventing anyone from buying a single show.. just if you want to buy a package, you can too.. itunes does this already with music.. you can buy a track or album. What was apple problem here?. Am i missing something?
I suppose the only reason to decline was that Apple wants to much commission for their services. Anyway, even the commission is reasonable, why should they pay it to Apple, when they can sell it by themselves. The exactly the same thing what airlines do now selling you air tickets via the Net and saving commission they pay to travel agents.

robbyx
Sep 5, 2007, 02:17 AM
I suppose the only reason to decline was that Apple wants to much commission for their services. Anyway, even the commission is reasonable, why should they pay it to Apple, when they can sell it by themselves. The exactly the same thing what airlines do now selling you air tickets via the Net and saving commission they pay to travel agents.

So why not do both? The reason Apple deserves a "commission" is that they've created a seamless mechanism for accessing and viewing content. That's got to be worth something, right?

Let people like me pay for it on iTunes. Let others pay for it on Unboxed. Let others download it from the network website. Whatever. Isn't it best to offer the consumer as MANY choices as possible? Trust me, I'm not going to give up my Mac, iPod, iPhone, and AppleTV just because I now can't download Heroes Season 2 from iTunes. The content simply isn't THAT important.

seashellz
Sep 5, 2007, 02:26 AM
In these days of declining studio profits, EVERY source of income helps-even if APPLEs is only....75% or the music/movie DL business.

NBC Vivendi just shot themselves in the foot
"Nah-we dont need the extra cash flow..."

Im sure the sotckholders will be pleased.

Im sure that if there a will theres a way for Mac users to get NBC shows (wink wink)

ddubbo
Sep 5, 2007, 02:28 AM
So why not do both? The reason Apple deserves a "commission" is that they've created a seamless mechanism for accessing and viewing content. That's got to be worth something, right?

Let people like me pay for it on iTunes. Let others pay for it on Unboxed. Let others download it from the network website. Whatever. Isn't it best to offer the consumer as MANY choices as possible? Trust me, I'm not going to give up my Mac, iPod, iPhone, and AppleTV just because I now can't download Heroes Season 2 from iTunes. The content simply isn't THAT important.

Totally agree. But actually Apple is someone who leave you only one choise. Only aluminium for Mac, Only iTunes for iPod, Only ATT for iPhone etc.
Get mTorrent and download whatever you want for free. ****** both, Apple and NBC

robbyx
Sep 5, 2007, 02:38 AM
Totally agree. But actually Apple is someone who leave you only one choise. Only aluminium for Mac, Only iTunes for iPod, Only ATT for iPhone etc.
Get mTorrent and download whatever you want for free. ****** both, Apple and NBC

Personally, I'm happy to live within the Apple universe. And I'm willing to pay for it (as are many others). I don't really care about choice. For me that isn't the issue. I think there SHOULD be choice, but I'm happy to be locked in, so long as being locked in is convenient and transparent. That's the point the media companies miss AGAIN and AGAIN.

Of course, I think the best option is low-cost DRM-free content. But maybe that's the optimist in me...believing people will pay for something, so long as it is priced fairly and easily accessed.

CaptainHaddock
Sep 5, 2007, 03:16 AM
I say "good riddance". The days of DRM-encumbered content are numbered. Let Amazon have the egg on their face when NBC's experiment fails.

ddubbo
Sep 5, 2007, 03:22 AM
Personally, I'm happy to live within the Apple universe. And I'm willing to pay for it (as are many others). I don't really care about choice. For me that isn't the issue. I think there SHOULD be choice, but I'm happy to be locked in, so long as being locked in is convenient and transparent. That's the point the media companies miss AGAIN and AGAIN.

Of course, I think the best option is low-cost DRM-free content. But maybe that's the optimist in me...believing people will pay for something, so long as it is priced fairly and easily accessed.
You're realist. People will pay, at least at USA. Proven. Wast majority of the people prefers to pay a couple of bucks and directly get what they need, instead of dealing with slow P2P networks, torrents etc.

boringName
Sep 5, 2007, 08:16 AM
OK, I don't have a Tivo - but if I did, why on EARTH would I pay to download TV shows that I could, uh, record? (I know, what about older ones) I do have a DVR, and so I've never actually bought a TV show from iTunes, unless I wanted to take it with me - I pay for the portability.

This is a move forced out of MS desperation. They want to build PC-xbox-Zune into the entertainment ecosystem of choice, but they'll have to do much more than this and slashing the price of the Zune to overcome the significant mindshare advantage that Apple has.

Arogant dummies...

dual64bit
Sep 5, 2007, 08:49 AM
And what about those who don't get cable or dish? Those who just watch the shows online because the price of cable or dish is far more expensive then just the small fees of purchasing to own via iTunes?

Am I wrong?

freediverdude
Sep 5, 2007, 08:56 AM
Well I'll tell ya, the only reason I've rented anything off of Amazon Unbox is because sometimes they have a very cheap price for just a rental of a movie that is available for direct download to the Tivo. And not everything on there is available for Tivo download, only some things. And the DRM on the rentals is pretty restrictive- have to press the play button within 30 days, and once you press the play button, the file disappears in 24 hours. So I just use it if it's a special cheap price for a crap movie that I want to see once and don't care about owning. Now granted this is probably purchasing NBC shows, not renting, but they would absolutely have to make it available via the Tivo download service to even have a chance at becoming somewhat successful. Just as a side note as well, the movies on the Unbox service are delivered in the standard 4:3 ratio or whatever, instead of widescreen like a dvd or iTunes, so if you have a widescreen tv there are bars on all 4 sides, just like you were watching a tv program in non-stretched mode instead of a movie.

Since the Unbox service isn't nearly as successful as iTunes, they're going to have a hard time with it I'm afraid. The revenue just won't be there in nearly as big a numbers.

chelsel
Sep 5, 2007, 09:01 AM
Not quite. Amazon's partnership with TiVo means you have a way of delivering content straight to your TV more conveniently than iTunes+:apple:TV.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/video/tivo

Now, if only it actually worked reliably every time...

B

I use Amazon Unbox on my Tivo Series3 all the time. It works GREAT... I'm actually pleased with this news. Who wants to watch a TV show on a 3" screen anyway... let me download it to my Tivo and watch it on the big screen!

aprilfools
Sep 5, 2007, 09:05 AM
Amazon's Unbox service requires Window XP and is not compatible with the Macintosh. NBC can kiss my @#*&!!!!!

princealfie
Sep 5, 2007, 09:06 AM
I use Amazon Unbox on my Tivo Series3 all the time. It works GREAT... I'm actually pleased with this news. Who wants to watch a TV show on a 3" screen anyway... let me download it to my Tivo and watch it on the big screen!

Sorry but my iPhone is way better than the tivo of tedium.:rolleyes:

OhEsTen
Sep 5, 2007, 09:07 AM
Apple is someone who leave you only one choise. Only aluminium for Mac, Only iTunes for iPod, Only ATT for iPhone etc..

Your argument makes no sense. Only aluminum for Mac? Only AT&T for iPhone has to do with Apple partnering with a company that was willing to make some adjustments to their system to support features like VV and such. As a negotiation I am sure AT&T wanted exclusivity. And as for iTunes, do you expect Apple to make 5 different versions of software to use your iPod with just so that they can say "we give people choices"?

I'm all for choices.. but people get way too caught up with "choices" instead of quality. It's blowback from this Wal-Mart society. What good are choices if all but one or two are actually good.

Also, I love how people act like they've personally done business with Apple. People read a book, a blog, or some ranting from an old ex-Apple employee and have this thought that Apple is this dictatorship at the negotiation table. Maybe they are - maybe they aren't (and maybe they are some of the time), I don't know. I've never been at the negotiation table with them.

MacFever
Sep 5, 2007, 09:26 AM
could microsoft be an influence in this decision by NBC since they own considerable shares.

hence their derivative.... MSNBC :)

Peace
Sep 5, 2007, 09:37 AM
And what about those who don't get cable or dish? Those who just watch the shows online because the price of cable or dish is far more expensive then just the small fees of purchasing to own via iTunes?

Am I wrong?

I use Amazon Unbox on my Tivo Series3 all the time. It works GREAT... I'm actually pleased with this news. Who wants to watch a TV show on a 3" screen anyway... let me download it to my Tivo and watch it on the big screen!

Have either of you ever heard of that new technology called an antenna ?
It's cheap and all you need to do is connect it to your Mac via an Eye TV Hybrid.
Then you get all the free over the air HDTV you want.

The fact is Vivindi/Universal has decided they know a better way to make more money without dealing with Apple.This will of course flop.

Just another day as the world turns.

StumpyPeter
Sep 5, 2007, 09:43 AM
Wake Up!Still more than 90% of people use PC.Besides, what is new technology in watching TV series? Don't trust all the BS from Jobs Congregation.

That 90% is probably true, but how many of those 90% are being used in businesses for word processing, accounts, speicific business computing etc. The percentage of Macs in the home market, where all this video watching is occurring may be much higher. Does anybody know what the Mac market share is in the home vs business market?

pubius
Sep 5, 2007, 09:59 AM
I gave you the link so you could read it for yourself:)



To be fair, you can still get free TV; it's quality may not be great, but it's there. Nonetheless, I too feel a bit bitter towards media companies. Not to be philosophical or anything, but are we any better if we steal from them? Sure they're greedy bastards, but when we rip DVDs from Netflix or use a torrent, don't we become as bad as them?...Naw, enjoy your free media:p

i'm going to say nah, it would take decades of ripping off to become as bad as them. just like the whole music piracy issue. if it ends up putting them out of business, i say good riddance!

clevin
Sep 5, 2007, 10:08 AM
I only say 3 points
1. apple was being stupid and dishonest to accuse NBC wanting $4.99/episode. which is against any basic market rules.

2. NBC is apparently giving up apple platform, if hulu.com will not bring it back to osx... Im not sure if thats a good strategy for NBC too. I know OSX is not a big market, I just need to know if iPOD is a significant video market in their research.

3. OSX might need a DRM system that is compatible with windows. for better or worse, altho I don't like DRM.

diamond.g
Sep 5, 2007, 10:09 AM
Will Hulu.com and Amazon.com support iTunes without a complicated conversion process? (iTunes being the entry point into iPods and iPhone).


You have to convert DRM-ed WMV files to M4V (or MP4), which may not be legal.

aristobrat
Sep 5, 2007, 10:14 AM
I only say 3 points
1. apple was being stupid and dishonest to accuse NBC wanting $4.99/episode. which is against any basic market rules.

2. NBC is apparently giving up apple platform, if hulu.com will not bring it back to osx... Im not sure if thats a good strategy for NBC too. I know OSX is not a big market, I just need to know if iPOD is a significant video market in their research.

3. OSX might need a DRM system that is compatible with windows. for better or worse, altho I don't like DRM.
1. The only thing I can think of in NBCs favor is that they wanted to sell "season passes" for less money, without lowering the wholesale cost to Apple. What else do they gain by moving to Amazon and offering their product for the same price per episode, but lower per "season pass"? Either that, or they read the backlash that was created by Apple's announcements and didn't go with the prices on Amazon that they orig. intended to.

3. If this really started to hurt Apple, I wouldn't be surprised to see them start licensing FairPlay. That works on both OS X and Windows. Doesn't Microsoft's new Silverlight do DRM on both platforms too?

Edit: yeah, looks like it does.

http://www.microsoft.com/silverlight/faq.aspx

For content providers, Silverlight will support digital rights management (DRM) built on the recently announced Microsoft PlayReady content access technology on Windows-based computers and Macintosh computers.

pubius
Sep 5, 2007, 10:18 AM
and do we know what percentage of pc users (that do download media) downlaod the pc version of itunes? i'm going to guess that it's skyrocketed every year. thus, this is not a pc vs. mac thing. itunes is universal (no pun intended).



That 90% is probably true, but how many of those 90% are being used in businesses for word processing, accounts, speicific business computing etc. The percentage of Macs in the home market, where all this video watching is occurring may be much higher. Does anybody know what the Mac market share is in the home vs business market?

Darkroom
Sep 5, 2007, 10:20 AM
*cough* torrent sites *cough*

SPUY767
Sep 5, 2007, 10:22 AM
This proves NBC was telling the truth when they said it had nothing to do with doubling the price.. Wow, apple fans were jumping all over NBC for being greedy when all they wanted to do is have the flexibility to package their shows. They even selling the package for a discount. Notice they are not preventing anyone from buying a single show.. just if you want to buy a package, you can too.. itunes does this already with music.. you can buy a track or album. What was apple problem here?. Am i missing something?

Yes, you're missing quite a lot. NBC got half of what it wanted, and I can guarantee, come contract time, it will be getting the other half.

Rot'nApple
Sep 5, 2007, 10:23 AM
Well, it was called Sony "Connect" but now it looks like it will be known as Sony "Disconnect (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070830-sony-euthanizes-sony-connect.html)."

But will Amazon's "Unbox" later be know as "Rebox" (sorry shoe maker)?:rolleyes:

ddubbo
Sep 5, 2007, 10:27 AM
That 90% is probably true, but how many of those 90% are being used in businesses for word processing, accounts, speicific business computing etc. The percentage of Macs in the home market, where all this video watching is occurring may be much higher. Does anybody know what the Mac market share is in the home vs business market?
At the home USA 92% using 2000,XP and Vista. Also surfing patterns leads to conclusion that a lot of people use Windows on Mac. I know that because I m working for an entertaining site, and I don't beleive someone use us from working place. And our site optimized for Mac Safari as well.
What about business use, I'm sure when we exclude designers, columnists and other creative people the business share of a Mac will stand somewhere about 0.1%
Actually I think that Unbox is a passing phenomenon for NBC. The best and easiest way to deliver video is HD streaming. Every company that want to benefit from selling videos on the net, should to develop some kind of such services

tgildred
Sep 5, 2007, 10:39 AM
The DRM limitations with Unbox are insane (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070904-after-ditching-apple-nbc-signs-up-with-the-small-guy-amazon-unbox.html), and the lack of iPod and Mac compatibility make it useless to me--and probably to MOST online media purchasers.

Kinda makes the name "Unbox" a little ironic, doesn't it?

CalBoy
Sep 5, 2007, 10:46 AM
I'm not trying to give Comcast, or any other company, a get out of jail free card by any means. I just think that if people are going to get pissed they should know who all they need to get pissed at. :D

Ok, so now I'm pissed at a government I couldn't have elected and a cable company with bad ethics...am I being fair to all parties now?:p No, I get what you mean; it doesn't make me feel any better though...in fact, I feel much worse knowing it was legally accepted.

clevin
Sep 5, 2007, 10:54 AM
1. The only thing I can think of in NBCs favor is that they wanted to sell "season passes" for less money, without lowering the wholesale cost to Apple. What else do they gain by moving to Amazon and offering their product for the same price per episode, but lower per "season pass"? Either that, or they read the backlash that was created by Apple's announcements and didn't go with the prices on Amazon that they orig. intended to.


I don't think so. I think there are several benefit, what I need to know is if these benefit will compensate the loss at osx/iPod markets

1. They are not doing exclusive with amazon unbox.

2. w/o restrictions of ITMS, they might be able to expand their market: non-iPOD/OSX user market; (After all, watching tv shows on PC is a pretty attractive idea.) or foreign market, (which I don't know if its possible)

3. flexible pricing. I know many people hate the idea, but as long as its optional, there won't be much problem, on the plus side, bundle some new shows for free might generate more interest for the new shows.

*cough* torrent sites *cough*

stop promoting piracy!
:D do canadian users has any options at all?;)

PS. some more news: Sony is preparing to launch a challenge to iTunes' video service
http://news.com.com/Does+Sony+finally+have+an+iTunes+answer/2100-1025_3-6206039.html?tag=nefd.lede

clevin
Sep 5, 2007, 10:58 AM
sorry, plz delete.

happylittlemac
Sep 5, 2007, 11:25 AM
If I did not know any better I say the whole NBC vs Apple dispute was a cheep swipe at Apple and iTunes.

mdriftmeyer
Sep 5, 2007, 11:54 AM
I love my macs, but come on. Apple deserves this. They're trying to act like an 800 pound gorilla and almost getting away with it. If anything, I'll bet Amazon's service will work on the mac soon - that way they won't shut out this part of the market.

If Apple wants to be a team player, maybe they should:
- allow for open DRM on iTunes
- support 64 bit Vista with iTunes (especially for the iPhone)

Until Apple plays like a better corporate citizen, I say let the competition take them down.

While these turf might make it more difficult for consumers in the short run, hopefully, there will be a light at the end of the tunnel. Maybe this will help usher in the era of OS independent and better interop of music and video services.

Microsoft continues to delay MSOffice for Mac and you want Apple to put extra developer resources in making iTunes 64bit clean on Windows Vista?

Blow it out your asses.

The Enterprise Markets for Windows hasn't jumped on the Vista bandwagon. Apple sure as hell isn't going to be an early adopter of moving technologies that aren't there own.

Windows XP is the overwhelming leader of PC deployments, both Consumer and Enterprise.

You want the largest marketshare so you go after it. You don't go after the future markets when they aren't even on your platform.

Apple is focusing it's efforts on its hardware platforms, existing cross-platform options for their software that sells their hardware and mainly on OS X Leopard dev tree/market tree for further platform expansion.

aristobrat
Sep 5, 2007, 12:03 PM
2. w/o restrictions of ITMS, they might be able to expand their market: non-iPOD/OSX user market; (After all, watching tv shows on PC is a pretty attractive idea.) or foreign market, (which I don't know if its possible)

3. flexible pricing. I know many people hate the idea, but as long as its optional, there won't be much problem, on the plus side, bundle some new shows for free might generate more interest for the new shows.
Maybe I'm missing it, but this is how it looks to me:

Before: 99% of the computer market (OS X + Windows -- iTunes lets people watch TV on both platforms) and 80% of the portable media player market (iPods)

After: 92% of the computer market (Windows -- Unbox doesn't work on OS X) and 20% of the portable media player market (a subset of Plays for Sure devices + TiVos (although I don't see purchases from TiVos offsetting the loss of OS X sales, much less iPod sales).

To me, it looks like Amazon's dramatically REDUCED their market. :confused:

As for bundling free episodes, they used to do that on iTunes. It wasn't too uncommon to see where ABC would let you download season finales free (right before the new season started, to get you excited), or free episodes of new shows, or free "iTunes only" episodes of stuff like Battlestar Galatica.

The only thing that really makes sense to me is that Amazon is DYING for content and did anything to snag NBC. :confused:

LionMage
Sep 5, 2007, 12:36 PM
Amazon's Unbox service requires Window XP and is not compatible with the Macintosh.
Actually, if you own a broadband-connected TiVo, you can now directly access Amazon Unbox content without using a PC. The account setup is, IIRC, web-based, so you can use Firefox on your Mac to set up an account.

That is, if you own a TiVo and you really want to download NBC TV shows. But then again, if you own a TiVo, and you watch these shows, why not just record them when they are broadcast?

mahermusic
Sep 5, 2007, 12:54 PM
.

skittlebrau79
Sep 5, 2007, 11:13 PM
As for HBO and *PAID* networks, yes, I think I should have to pay for it. ONCE. Not around every corner as these greedy media companies constantly try to pull money out of my pocket again and again for the same mediocre programming.
You left out ESPN, A&E, USA, TNT, TBS and every other basic cable channel. You didn't get them over the air. They are not paid networks. So is it OK to pirate their content? What about cable channels you do not receive?

My point isn't to say that I don't care about the content creators. I care about how GREEDY they have become. That's why I like iTunes. It's FAIR. I pay a modest fee to buy my programming. I have it delivered without commercials. I watch it where I want (TV, iPod, computer screen). And life is good - and simple.
Many people think ITMS is most unfair. It does not pay artists very much, and restricts you to using iTunes. What if I don't want to use the craptastic iTunes for listening to my MP3s on Windows (it seriously blows on Windows, much more than on the Mac). I suppose it's OK for me to just pirate music in that case.

Seriously, what is your problem? I didn't even mention Apple, nor did I bring software piracy into the argument at all.
How is software piracy any different than pirating content? Let's find out. I'll take each of your justifications for pirating TV shows and apply them to pirating software.

I'm sick and tired of the TV and movie industries trying to force me to spend A LOT of money on throw-away media.
I'm sick and tired of Apple forcing me to spend a LOT of money on throw-away software. I only used it once or twice, so I can pirate it.

Sell it to me at a fair price
Sell me Leopard at a fair price. The most I want to pay is $99. Apparently me gets to set what's a fair price now, and I demand $99.

and don't restrict the h*ll out of how I can view it, and I'm HAPPY to pay.
Don't restrict the h*ll on how I can use Leopard. I want to legally install it on a PC. I want to legally virtualize it. I want to legally reverse engineer it so I can write my own drivers. All three are forbidden by the EULA, so I shall pirate it.

But your reaction is a perfect example of why the industry can't get it together. You think the system is good and fair. Sorry buddy, it's not. It sucks for the consumer.
I don't think the system is perfect, good or fair. I just don't think pirating is the way to solve it. By your reasoning, I can ignore any law I think is unfair or "not good".

clevin
Sep 6, 2007, 08:50 AM
Maybe I'm missing it, but this is how it looks to me:

Before: 99% of the computer market (OS X + Windows -- iTunes lets people watch TV on both platforms) and 80% of the portable media player market (iPods)


what you missed is the fact that computer market != online tv show buying crowd, with later being much smaller.

aristobrat
Sep 6, 2007, 09:06 AM
what you missed is the fact that computer market != online tv show buying crowd, with later being much smaller.
But if a computer is required to buy a TV show online, how can reducing the number of computers capable of making such a purchase not also reduce the number of TV shows purchased?

clevin
Sep 6, 2007, 09:23 AM
But if a computer is required to buy a TV show online, how can reducing the number of computers capable of making such a purchase not also reduce the number of TV shows purchased?

hehe, easy, lets say right now its 5% of pc users +5% of mac users, which is 5% of total computer users

and if NBC can expand their pc users base to 6%, then its 6x.95=5.7% of total computer users. larger than current situation.

aristobrat
Sep 6, 2007, 10:43 AM
hehe, easy, lets say right now its 5% of pc users +5% of mac users, which is 5% of total computer users

and if NBC can expand their pc users base to 6%, then its 6x.95=5.7% of total computer users. larger than current situation.
Ah, OK -- I get where you're coming from. :)

Personally, I think NBC will be lucky if 50% of its iTunes customers move over to Unbox. I don't see any way (short of them giving their programming away for free) that they'll end up with more customers there than they had on iTunes, especially since Unbox shows can't be viewed on iPods.

Your point about watching TV on a computer is valid, but from the threads I've read here over the last year or so, it seems like when "tv purchasing from iTS" is mentioned, seems like the majority of times it's specifically mentioned that it's being purchased for viewing on an iPod.

freediverdude
Sep 6, 2007, 12:20 PM
NBC is probably ok for now going over to Unbox, but I'm thinking they will be forced to seriously reconsider their position in another year or two when the iphone and ipod touch become even more dominant in the portable player market than the regular ipod is now. The sales they will get from Unbox will be mostly Tivo purchases.

robbyx
Sep 21, 2007, 02:29 PM
Many people think ITMS is most unfair. It does not pay artists very much, and restricts you to using iTunes. What if I don't want to use the craptastic iTunes for listening to my MP3s on Windows (it seriously blows on Windows, much more than on the Mac). I suppose it's OK for me to just pirate music in that case.

Then buy a Zune and buy your music from any number of other online music retailers. Or, do what I do, buy CDs. This is a bogus argument. Apples and Oranges. No one is FORCING you to buy Apple products or content form the iTMS. There are many options out there.

Unlike television where, if you want to watch a show, you have only one choice: pay for tons of crap you don't want or care about in order to get the handful of things you do. iTunes broke this horrible model and industry wankers can't seem to understand why it's so successful. Gee, who'd have thought that consumers might actually want to pick and choose what content they buy rather than having a bunch of crap forced down our throats.

As for iTMS not paying artists very well, um, have you checked on how well the big media companies pay? Not that it's any justification, but come on. Artists get the shaft everywhere - unless they self publish or go indie.

As for the rest of your drivel, typical industry whining. Lash out rather than treat the consumer with any respect. It's no wonder the big media companies are imploding.