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MacRumors
Sep 16, 2007, 11:49 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

The Guardian reports (http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2007/sep/17/mobilephones.apple?gusrc=rss&feed=technology) on more confirmation that O2 will be the exclusive carrier of the iPhone in the UK. They also claim that T-Mobile for Germany and Orange in France will be announced on Wednesday and Thursday respectively.

Of interest, they describe that Apple pursued a "divide and conquer" strategy in partnering the iPhone in Europe, pitting carriers against each other. In the end, O2 won the deal, but at a high price:
...at the 11th hour O2 snatched the UK deal with an offer that gave such a high proportion of revenues to Apple that none of its competitors could see any way of making any return on the phone, even over three years. They believed that even if it was treated as purely a loss-leading marketing product, a better return could be had by spending the money elsewhere.
Apple is hosting a media event in London at 10am local time on Tuesday September 18th, 2007. While Apple is widely expected to launch the UK iPhone at that time, there are conflicting reports on the details.

ThinkSecret (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0709iphoneeurope.html) believes the iPhone will ship in the UK during the week of November 12th, and expect another media event around September 24th for France. Meanwhile, Gizmodo expects (http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/confirmed-but-not-by-apple/apple-and-o2-to-launch-iphone-in-uk-mid+-to-late+october-299857.php) the UK iPhone to ship by the end of October.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/09/17/apples-negotiations-and-the-iphone-in-europe/)



Buschmaster
Sep 16, 2007, 11:58 PM
This is good news for all of the Europeans who need an iPhone fix. However, I don't think the iPhone will do so hot if it doesn't have 3G. And I don't think Europe will get 3G before America...

NewSc2
Sep 17, 2007, 12:01 AM
that's pretty retarded... with the unlock coming around the corner, why would somebody bid that high?

CalBoy
Sep 17, 2007, 12:03 AM
And I don't think Europe will get 3G before America...

Actually, a simultaneous rollout is more likely. Europe is a more demanding phone market. Apple won't be able to drag its feet with a feature if the population over there feels its necessary.

On a side note, it's interesting that the UK carrier is not going to make much money off of the deal in terms of iPhone plan sales; I'm guessing they're banking on other products and services being able to make up the shortfall?

egibney
Sep 17, 2007, 12:14 AM
This is wonderful for our European based iPhone fans but what about us here in Canada?

BKKbill
Sep 17, 2007, 12:15 AM
It seems to me that if you squeeze the carriers so hard there will not be incentive for them to push apple phone sales as hard.

matthewHUB
Sep 17, 2007, 12:23 AM
O2 just care about their customer base. they'd give anything to beat Vodafone in the 'most popular' or 'most talked on' network. They've been underdogs for some time now and i reckon they'll do anything to get more subscribers on O2.

my $0.02

CHROMEDOME
Sep 17, 2007, 12:23 AM
The iPhone's success in Europe depends on 3G.

ebouwman
Sep 17, 2007, 12:26 AM
This is wonderful for our European based iPhone fans but what about us here in Canada?

Thats what i've been thinking, maybe they're not trying as hard to sell it to us because we dont' have the same kind of population as europe, but how does that make me feel! :(

shadowmoses
Sep 17, 2007, 12:26 AM
The iPhone's success in Europe depends on 3G.

Yes and no, If 02 offer a good EDGE service, people will unlikely not care so long as they can access web/e-mail on the move at reasonable speeds they will be happy......3g is on its was but I am pretty sure we won't see it in the UK in the first iPhone release. The hardware will most likely be the same as what is offered in the US.

ShadoW

TurboSC
Sep 17, 2007, 12:36 AM
Man Apple sure knows how to pull people's strings... but I mean it's the iPhone... Everyone saw how it carried AT&T to the next level, it can't be that much different for the UK... Then again the whole iPhone unlocking does add a twist to the story... I guess we'll find out soon!

BillyShears
Sep 17, 2007, 12:50 AM
This is wonderful for our European based iPhone fans but what about us here in Canada?

As I understand it:


The only cell phone provider in Canada that could work with the iPhone is Rogers (iPhone uses GSM)
Rogers has terrible data rates
In the States, iPhone requires a data plan


I am thinking they want to include a data plan with the iPhone (so customers get the whole feel), but they could only go with Rogers, whose rates are crap. Not to mention they need the provider to rework their network (visual voicemail), and probably other conditions. But they can't do much here, because they can't play Rogers against anyone as they did in the States and Europe.

I'm sure it will happen, but the cost of redesigning the iPhone to work with other providers will probably outweigh the benefit of subscribers in Canada (for the time being).

mjonson
Sep 17, 2007, 12:54 AM
i've heard 40% of revenue is going to apple ... that would be insane

ebouwman
Sep 17, 2007, 12:55 AM
As I understand it:


The only cell phone provider in Canada that could work with the iPhone is Rogers (iPhone uses GSM)
Rogers has terrible data rates
In the States, iPhone requires a data plan


I am thinking they want to include a data plan with the iPhone (so customers get the whole feel), but they could only go with Rogers, whose rates are crap. Not to mention they need the provider to rework their network (visual voicemail), and probably other conditions. But they can't do much here, because they can't play Rogers against anyone as they did in the States and Europe.

I'm sure it will happen, but the cost of redesigning the iPhone to work with other providers will probably outweigh the benefit of subscribers in Canada (for the time being).

I have to say that Rogers is THE WORST carrier in Canada ...worst contracts, worst rates, worst coverage...

If iPhone comes to Canada with Rogers I will not buy it, and i know lots of people who feel the same way.

mjonson
Sep 17, 2007, 12:58 AM
biggest problem with Rogers is it doesnt work outside of major cities.... i had no choice but to go with a bell or telus phone, even though i live in a city, as i am often on the road.

iJed
Sep 17, 2007, 01:04 AM
If the iPhone is not 3G in the UK then Apple are going sell considerably fewer units than if it did have 3G. I think it would be a big mistake to release this in Europe without the 3G radio. Especially if they hope to charge similar prices to the US.

weckart
Sep 17, 2007, 01:04 AM
i've heard 40% of revenue is going to apple ... that would be insane

Yep. Reported on the Money programme today on 5 Live, so it sounds like a City rumour and those usually have legs to stand on. If so, those O2 plans are going to be wallet busting. The iPhone hack will consequently be one of the most popular downloads this year.

Doctor Q
Sep 17, 2007, 01:05 AM
Whether the carriers that partner with Apple make much money off these deals will probably depend on the actual iPhone sales over the next year(s), and nobody knows what those sales figures will be. It's not a guaranteed return on investment, so the "winner" in each market may be either the company that "wins" the iPhone deal or the companies that pass on the deal.

sbrownla
Sep 17, 2007, 01:15 AM
just get one and unlock it.

cervaro
Sep 17, 2007, 01:18 AM
The lack of 3G would be a backward step in Europe, and Apple should realise that. People like the latest technology, and no 3G would make it look the iPhone look a bit crippled. The cost of data traffic will also be a factor in the iPhones success over here too, and it can be very expensive (from bitter experience), so hopefully O2 will address that matter too.

What would Apple have done if all the carriers hadn't played ball and given them the finger to their demands? I think 40% of revenues sucks, and I would have told them where to poke the iPhone too. Vodafone aren't as successful as they are without knowing the mobile phone business, so kudos to them for not signing up.

MattDell
Sep 17, 2007, 01:18 AM
Do you realize how awesome that would be if they released the iPhone in the UK on September 18th? I'm moving to London on the 20th!!! :D

firestarter
Sep 17, 2007, 01:33 AM
Yep. Reported on the Money programme today on 5 Live, so it sounds like a City rumour and those usually have legs to stand on. If so, those O2 plans are going to be wallet busting. The iPhone hack will consequently be one of the most popular downloads this year.

Agreed.

This mad deal with O2 is not good news. O2 are going to have some serious lock-in on their contracts, and high prices too :mad:

Maybe I should just get the iTouch this time 'round. I'm not going to be locked in to O2 for 3 years.

Sabenth
Sep 17, 2007, 01:36 AM
it would be interesting if it was to be released then but again no one knows really whats going to happen and if o2 have paid way over the top we the end user will end up suffering again. Iam happy with my nokia on t mobile and unlimited net usage not sure iam prepared to o2s data rate prices.

villainx
Sep 17, 2007, 01:41 AM
Personally, I rather Apple create a win win for the carriers. They provide the service, and improve service will only be better for Apple.

ma2ha3
Sep 17, 2007, 01:41 AM
why cant apple just make a phone, why need to fix carrier?
i see that 3G most unlikely appear in europe now
but since gsm does not work in japan, only 3G will introduce in japan next year.
at that time, maybe it will appear in europe

microsoft got a 600 millions dollar fine. let apple try to lock user on one carrier, we will see how long it takes for EU courts to fine apple. hopefully, give them a huge fine, that will teach them about locking user.

koobcamuk
Sep 17, 2007, 01:49 AM
I will be angry if we get the same phone as the USA, but for a tariff that is double the price or something like that. I'll just end up getting a touch when I visit New York someday. Either that or I'll be unlocking an iPhone.

I agree that Vodafone know the business very well. They really do. I am with them and I am very pleased - I used to be on O2.

It might be more prudent for people to buy and iphone and use web and walk (Tmobile) - even without EDGE.

I can just see colleagues of mine asking me why I don't have the iPhone, because I use Apple stuff and am seen to be one of two in the department 'supporting' Apple.

I can tell you now, unless I think the deal is attractive, I am not signing to O2 for something like 2 years (some people might realise this is crap too) just to use an iphone, where I can get a 'better' phone (Camera, 3G, more storage, 'normal' keypad) for free and on a 12 month contract at half the price...

Good luck Apple. If you're with O2 you'll need it here in the UK.

it would be interesting if it was to be released then but again no one knows really whats going to happen and if o2 have paid way over the top we the end user will end up suffering again. Iam happy with my nokia on t mobile and unlimited net usage not sure iam prepared to o2s data rate prices.

I think you have the right idea here.

Personally, I rather Apple create a win win for the carriers.

Why on Earth would you say that? I still think an unlocked iPhone in the Apple stores would outsell every phone. With a 2 year contract at a high price, students will avoid it (for one).

Agreed.

This mad deal with O2 is not good news. O2 are going to have some serious lock-in on their contracts, and high prices too :mad:

Maybe I should just get the iTouch this time 'round. I'm not going to be locked in to O2 for 3 years.

Me too. The touch is the only viable option for me now. I am not spending more than 18 months with O2.

Tobsen
Sep 17, 2007, 01:50 AM
Finacial Times Germany reports, that T-Mobile also gets Austria, Netherlands Croatia and Hungary.

http://www.ftd.de/technik/it_telekommunikation/:T%20Mobile%20L%E4ndern/253719.html

jubjub
Sep 17, 2007, 01:52 AM
why cant apple just make a phone, why need to fix carrier?
i see that 3G most unlikely appear in europe now
but since gsm does not work in japan, only 3G will introduce in japan next year.
at that time, maybe it will appear in europe

Visual voicemail.. it's incredible you know ;) But I agree, they would sell a hell of a lot of more phones that way, and as someone else said, if the carriers don't make "any" money of the iPhone.. why push for the sale?

The answer is greed of course.. if they get 40% of the monthly bill.. that's quite a bit of extra cash.

koobcamuk
Sep 17, 2007, 01:56 AM
Visual voicemail.. it's incredible you know ;) But I agree, they would sell a hell of a lot of more phones that way, and as someone else said, if the carriers don't make "any" money of the iPhone.. why push for the sale?

I really couldn't give a **** about visual voicemail if it locks me to a carrier for 2 years at £40 a month. All plans are outdated after 12 months and they start to really screw you.

Even if they don't make any money initially, if more people join O2 that other networks, they might become number 1 provider. The UK market is pretty saturated. Once people are on a network, they will usually stay, thus more money in the long run.

Different carriers also means it'll cost loads to roam - something I currently enjoy for cheap with Vodafone (passport). This has just convinced me to get a touch - if anything at all.

shakalys
Sep 17, 2007, 02:10 AM
well if this is true (http://www.iphonefreak.com/2007/07/iphone-hardware.html) when apple could launch iphone in europe with 3g enabled and update firmware for existing Iphones...

Abstract
Sep 17, 2007, 02:13 AM
I don't mind the idea of being under contract and under specific data plans for the iPhone. ;)

What I do mind is Apple's approach to handling mobile carriers. If this 40% figure is true, then it really does sound like a horrid deal for O2. Sure, O2 didn't have to be stupid enough to sign it, but I just don't like the approach by Apple to use it's weight and push others around. I guess this doesn't have anything to do with a product. Apple did make a great product, but like many of my favourite musicians, movie stars, etc.... some of their attitudes suck, I'm sure.

Jowl
Sep 17, 2007, 02:17 AM
O2 are starting to advertise and increase awareness/put in the contract details about it's EDGE network - a system it wrote off previously. That in it's self doesn't look for a 3G iPhone

I wonder how O2 shareholders feel after they back them to spend Billions on a 3G license ?

koobcamuk
Sep 17, 2007, 02:25 AM
O2 are starting to advertise and increase awareness/put in the contract details about it's EDGE network - a system it wrote off previously. That in it's self doesn't look for a 3G iPhone

I wonder how O2 shareholders feel after they back them to spend Billions on a 3G license ?

Pretty pissed.

well if this is true (http://www.iphonefreak.com/2007/07/iphone-hardware.html) when apple could launch iphone in europe with 3g enabled and update firmware for existing Iphones...

I still think proper 3G with a webcam for iChat support would be immense.

appie57
Sep 17, 2007, 02:28 AM
Finacial Times Germany reports, that T-Mobile also gets Austria, Netherlands Croatia and Hungary.

http://www.ftd.de/technik/it_telekommunikation/:T%20Mobile%20L%E4ndern/253719.html

Hooray! :) I'm on T-Mobile in the Netherlands, so that will save me a switch. However, much will depend on contract pricing:( and 3G.

abrooks
Sep 17, 2007, 02:33 AM
I wonder how O2 shareholders feel after they back them to spend Billions on a 3G license ?

Have you seen O2's 3G coverage? Pretty meagre and definitely hasn't been invested heavily in.

Map. (http://www.gsmworld.com/cgi-bin/ni_map.pl?cc=gb&net=c3)

Loge
Sep 17, 2007, 02:33 AM
The article loses a bit of credibility when they say -

The rush to secure an exclusive iPhone deal has also been called into question by the arrival of the iPod Touch device, which does everything the iPhone does except make phone calls.

If only ... :(

trevreyno
Sep 17, 2007, 02:55 AM
Have to agree,that if it has no 3G and you are locked into a ridiculously long and costly price plan (which seems likely seeing that o2 has paid way over the top for it ?)-it will be an itouch for me at the moment.
The new year will no doubt bring the 3G with 16GB iphone and,possibly lower price plans if o2 dont shift as many as they hoped.

No doubt we will all find out tomorrow the good or bad news.....:confused:

rickx
Sep 17, 2007, 02:55 AM
I'm wondering what will happen with the europeans left out...Italy first of all, which basically is the biggest mobile phone market in Europe with a 130% penetration, and a number of phones just a step behind Germany. It seems none of the mobile providers here was crazy enough to bend over 90° at first sight with Apple :rolleyes:
It will be funny to see the future developments, I think there are going to be even big differences among the various "deals" Apple is signing, and I'm sure there *will* be win win situations. Maybe even for customers (?)

Anyway, I think this strategy is quiet adventurous, looking more like a kind of mobster-style handling than something professional and serious (to me).

ANTMUZ
Sep 17, 2007, 02:55 AM
Well if the US strategy is anything to go by I'm not sure Apple will release the phone tomorrow. Surely they must want a bit of hype first? People around me are like i-what? I'm guessing the October date is correct.

Depending on o2's pricing I think I'm just gonna unlock the phone and use it on Orange. Also it really needs to be 3G to be a deal breaker. I've tried edge on Orange before and it really is slow at loading WAP pages - imagine what it'll be like for the real web!

Maybe o2 are giving away 40% of revenues because Apple have allowed them to subsidise the phone, as is pretty normal in the UK.

Philsy
Sep 17, 2007, 02:56 AM
Unless Apple pulls out a trump card in the form of 3G, and a decent camera that includes video, then the iPhone is not going to appeal to many UK buyers, used to higher-spec phones. Especially if it's going to be expensive.

netdog
Sep 17, 2007, 03:03 AM
Unless Apple pulls out a trump card in the form of 3G, and a decent camera that includes video, then the iPhone is not going to appeal to many UK buyers, used to higher-spec phones. Especially if it's going to be expensive.

Clearly you haven't used this phone. I have, and what it offers is infinitely more interesting that 3G LOL.

When you hold one in your hand, you are going to want it.

Philsy
Sep 17, 2007, 03:05 AM
Clearly you haven't used this phone. I have, and what it offers is infinitely more interesting that 3G LOL.

When you hold one in your hand, you are going to want it.

I've heard that the web browsing is slow compared to 3G, and remember that most of the UK doesn't have EDGE.

gnasher729
Sep 17, 2007, 03:06 AM
If the iPhone is not 3G in the UK then Apple are going sell considerably fewer units than if it did have 3G. I think it would be a big mistake to release this in Europe without the 3G radio. Especially if they hope to charge similar prices to the US.

Apple isn't selling to people who want 3G. Apple is selling to people who want a phone that works, where _all_ features are actually usable to a normal human being, that has a built-in top-of-the-range iPod, not the equivalent to some cheap £20 MP3 player, and that has a full, usable Internet connection.

And these people are the big, big majority.

gnasher729
Sep 17, 2007, 03:08 AM
I've heard that the web browsing is slow compared to 3G, and remember that most of the UK doesn't have EDGE.

According to theregister, one phone company is right now working their ass off to switch everything over to Edge. I wonder why they would be doing that. And if most of England has coverage, that is good enough for me :D

Philsy
Sep 17, 2007, 03:10 AM
According to theregister, one phone company is right now working their ass off to switch everything over to Edge. I wonder why they would be doing that. And if most of England has coverage, that is good enough for me :D

It would silly to invest in inferior technology just to support the iPhone :confused:

126351
Sep 17, 2007, 03:10 AM
Going with o2 in the UK is an absolute scandal. Apple is a company that prides itself on standing out from the crowd; devices that are a thing of beauty, technology to covet.

So choosing o2 is a bit of a contradiction. Of course o2 would agree to the terms - they are losing customers hand over fist since being taken over by Telefonica. Inflexible upgrades (some times you cannot upgrade, they force you into a lesser yet more expensive contract), date plans stuck in the 1980's, Indian call centres manned by people they have dug out of the nearest mental asylum and UK customer services so bad that they make Virgin Media look like a beacon of achievement.

Apple should have been less stringent and used a more reputable provider that is on the rise rather than one who is finished. Seriously, it just makes sense to have Apple working with Vodafone or t-mobile.

:(

gnasher729
Sep 17, 2007, 03:13 AM
The lack of 3G would be a backward step in Europe, and Apple should realise that. People like the latest technology, and no 3G would make it look the iPhone look a bit crippled. The cost of data traffic will also be a factor in the iPhones success over here too, and it can be very expensive (from bitter experience), so hopefully O2 will address that matter too.

Actually, most people don't care about latest technology, they want stuff that works. That is what Apple products and Apple marketing are about: Not "what can this phone do" but "what _does_ this phone do for you".

Get any potential customer to take an iPhone in their hand and use it, and they won't care one bit whether it uses 3G, EDGE or trained pigeons.

hotboiled
Sep 17, 2007, 03:16 AM
There is no official European law that prohobits the locking of phones to a certain provider. It's the country itself that issues those laws atm.
Example: in the Netherlands its a common practice to lock phones, in Belgium it is prohibited
(because it violates the fair competition law)

so we get unlocked iphones or NO iphone :mad::( (in belgium)

Elrond39
Sep 17, 2007, 03:25 AM
Finacial Times Germany reports, that T-Mobile also gets Austria, Netherlands Croatia and Hungary.

http://www.ftd.de/technik/it_telekommunikation/:T%20Mobile%20L%E4ndern/253719.html

Hooray! :) I'm on T-Mobile in the Netherlands, so that will save me a switch. However, much will depend on contract pricing:( and 3G.

Sounds good to me, but I agree with you, Appie.

emotion
Sep 17, 2007, 03:36 AM
Have you seen O2's 3G coverage? Pretty meagre and definitely hasn't been invested heavily in.

Map. (http://www.gsmworld.com/cgi-bin/ni_map.pl?cc=gb&net=c3)

Very good point.

Another map:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1023/1380530641_375848e896_o.png

Project
Sep 17, 2007, 03:38 AM
Going with o2 in the UK is an absolute scandal. Apple is a company that prides itself on standing out from the crowd; devices that are a thing of beauty, technology to covet.

So choosing o2 is a bit of a contradiction. Of course o2 would agree to the terms - they are losing customers hand over fist since being taken over by Telefonica. Inflexible upgrades (some times you cannot upgrade, they force you into a lesser yet more expensive contract), date plans stuck in the 1980's, Indian call centres manned by people they have dug out of the nearest mental asylum and UK customer services so bad that they make Virgin Media look like a beacon of achievement.

Apple should have been less stringent and used a more reputable provider that is on the rise rather than one who is finished. Seriously, it just makes sense to have Apple working with Vodafone or t-mobile.

:(


Come on man this is just getting silly. People would moan whatever network landed the iPhone. I have used them all and they're pretty much all as bad as easy other (though 3's data plans are immense)

As for the article... I just cant see Apple winning a 40% deal. Its too extreme. Even for Apple. 10-20% I can see but not 40. However, if the phone is not being subsidised by the carrier then I think its more than fair for Apple to take a %.

And for the people saying the phone will flop without 3G here...please. Take off your geek cap for a second and realise that the vast majority of people do not care and will be more than won over by what the iPhone can do and the way it does it. Either way, 3G coverage with O2 is so spotty outside London that I can truly understand the decision to stick with it. People who believe the UK is ubiquitous 3G and that everybody demands a 3G phone when signing up for a contract are living in dream world. Have you seen how many people are using BlackBerrys these days? They look like ancient tech compared to the iPhone but are awesome for email so they sell and are loved. The iPhone is awesome for media and the internet...a pretty giant leap above any other phone on these features. There will be a healthy market for it here...even sans 3G.

Don't get me wrong, id love 3G. But the iPhone is extremely enticing even with out it. And my current experience with 3G via a Nokia N series phone is an exercise in frustration. I barely ever get coverage and this is in the UKs second city (hint, its not Birmingham :cool:) - so it reverts to GPRS..and that is painful

alexeismertin
Sep 17, 2007, 03:41 AM
Vodafone has the best coverage in the UK, the best network (3G) but not always the best prices (their PAYG has the worst pricing). O2 is second, Orange 3rd & T-mobile is plain rubbish. It would have been a lot worse if Orange or T-mobile had gotten the contract in the UK. O2 spent stacks in getting a 3G license but don't have a 3G network!

In the end its all horses for courses & it will come down to this (so network really doesn't matter):

1. If you can buy the iphone from Apple direct, unlock it & use it on any network without signing up/activating with O2 like people are doing in the US with AT&T, then it will be a winner.

2. The price will be £269 + £35-£40 per month + 18-24 month contract - Despite the quality product I suspect this will be a hard sell for the UK. The rule here is if you pay that kind of money for your handset then it is PAYG/sim free, if you pay that kind of money for a monthly tariff then your phone is undoubtedly free, only businesses take out 24 month contracts.

koobcamuk
Sep 17, 2007, 03:41 AM
Maybe o2 are giving away 40% of revenues because Apple have allowed them to subsidise the phone, as is pretty normal in the UK.

I agree.

Apple isn't selling to people who want 3G. Apple is selling to people who want a phone that works, where _all_ features are actually usable to a normal human being, that has a built-in top-of-the-range iPod, not the equivalent to some cheap £20 MP3 player, and that has a full, usable Internet connection.

I disagree. Phones over here are really good compared to the USA - I am more than sure phones that 'just work' are here. I am also sure that most people's mothers could still not operate the iphone. It's the techno savvy kids today that will buy this... not my parents!

With that in mind, the new ipods are out here and when people have just bought a new iPod, there's less chance they'll buy a phone with a built in iPod. Touchscreen? Plenty of phones with that. Most people prefer to use normal buttons... we'll see :rolleyes:

xStep
Sep 17, 2007, 03:54 AM
i've heard 40% of revenue is going to apple ... that would be insane
The fact any revenue beyound the sale of the iPhone is going to Apple is insane. To me this is like the music industry asking for a cut of iPod sales when they sell their toons on iTunes.

koobcamuk
Sep 17, 2007, 04:03 AM
-snip-

Nicely said.

offwidafairies
Sep 17, 2007, 04:04 AM
:( what about down under

Project
Sep 17, 2007, 04:13 AM
The fact any revenue beyound the sale of the iPhone is going to Apple is insane. To me this is like the music industry asking for a cut of iPod sales when they sell their toons on iTunes.

Its not insane. Its Apple and Apple alone who are bringing the customers in. Apple handles support for the phone. Apple handles marketing for the phone. And the network does not need to subsidise a penny. So you are essentially saying the networks should be getting new customers for free?

tjcampbell
Sep 17, 2007, 04:37 AM
This is wonderful for our European based iPhone fans but what about us here in Canada?

Move.

That's what I did and I've never looked back!

mudaudio
Sep 17, 2007, 04:39 AM
The last time I checked it was common knowledge that the WiFi music store was coming to the iPhone. So the Guardians suggestion it isn't available is at best a negative spin on the current situation. At worst its just bad facts, bad journalism.

And if I can't rely on that, why would I believe the rest of it?!

Nearly every paragraph starts with a sentence containing the word: appears, believed, understood, etc.... Ok, fine on a rumour site; but when did 'city' journalism become this sketchy?

I hope, for the good of humanity, and the future of the planet, that such speculative journalism is confined to tech news forever more.

Oh hang on. "Sources suggest there are weapons of mass destruction"

No, wait, its fine, I think that was from an official government report, not an over-exaggerating journalist. That’s ok then :)

koobcamuk
Sep 17, 2007, 04:44 AM
-snip-

Awesome post.

twoodcc
Sep 17, 2007, 04:50 AM
good news for europeans. i wonder if the iPhone will get upgraded?

mkjj
Sep 17, 2007, 05:00 AM
Whatever carrier Apple go with, you can't please everyone, just like in the US when they picked AT&T.
I live in the NW so get some of o2's best coverage on video/data etc, would I like an iPhone with 3G, yes but I have a 3G phone now (SEK800) do I use it, no because the GUI is pathetic and searching for stuff is a waste of time.
Would I be happy with EDGE and a better experience and actually be able to us it? you bet.
People are going on about long contracts, 18 months is a norm these days and I get so many minutes and texts from o2 I can't possibly use them all in a month. So if o2 add a nice data plan (ie: unlimited like AT&T) and you can upgrade from your existing your contract then I think I will be first in line.

Like others I have had all carriers (except 3) and found them to be almost identical, people will have bad experiences from all carriers, that's just life.
I have two phones on o2 and found them to be excellent, the one problem I had porting an old number we had was sorted and they gave us a free months rental for our troubles, good customer service.

3G is not going to be the iPhones achilles heel for most users, some won't ever use the email, some the photo viewer, they will just want and iPhone full stop!

cupique
Sep 17, 2007, 05:06 AM
There is no official European law that prohobits the locking of phones to a certain provider. It's the country itself that issues those laws atm.
Example: in the Netherlands its a common practice to lock phones, in Belgium it is prohibited
(because it violates the fair competition law)

so we get unlocked iphones or NO iphone :mad::( (in belgium)

In Finland it's also prohibited to sell non-3G phone with a contract. So it's unlocked iPhone or no iphone in here too - unless they come up with some sort of rental system where you can buy the phone after two years of use for 1€ or something..

koobcamuk
Sep 17, 2007, 05:19 AM
People are going on about long contracts, 18 months is a norm these days and I get so many minutes and texts from o2 I can't possibly use them all in a month. So if o2 add a nice data plan (ie: unlimited like AT&T) and you can upgrade from your existing your contract then I think I will be first in line.

Like others I have had all carriers (except 3) and found them to be almost identical, people will have bad experiences from all carriers, that's just life.


I am on 12 months at £15 a month, for 500 texts and 250 minutes a month, anytime any network. I also have a data allowance of 5MB a day, which I dont use.

£15 a month.

If the iPhone is +£200 and +£35 a month they can suck my vodafone.

firestarter
Sep 17, 2007, 05:38 AM
The last time I checked it was common knowledge that the WiFi music store was coming to the iPhone. So the Guardians suggestion it isn't available is at best a negative spin on the current situation. At worst its just bad facts, bad journalism.

And if I can't rely on that, why would I believe the rest of it?!


Er... the WiFi music store may be coming to the phone, but Starbucks aren't rolling it out in the UK. Maybe that's what they mean?

mkjj
Sep 17, 2007, 05:38 AM
I am on 12 months at £15 a month, for 500 texts and 250 minutes a month, anytime any network. I also have a data allowance of 5MB a day, which I dont use.


Sounds like you are on a texter rather than a talker plan. Mine is 800 mins talk (wife travels a lot so need long talk time, you guys know what I mean:rolleyes:) and 200 texts plus free long weekends and int roaming charge. £35.00 a month.

So for another fiver or so a month for data then sign me up!:)

Phormic
Sep 17, 2007, 05:48 AM
:( what about down under

Apple has always said that Asia will have the iPhone at the end of 2008 but I was speaking to an Australian Apple employee who confidently said the launch has been brought forward to the first third of 2008.

I mean, not great but not as bad as we thought.

koobcamuk
Sep 17, 2007, 05:49 AM
Sounds like you are on a texter rather than a talker plan. Mine is 800 mins talk (wife travels a lot so need long talk time, you guys know what I mean:rolleyes:) and 200 texts plus free long weekends and int roaming charge. £35.00 a month.

So for another fiver or so a month for data then sign me up!:)

Sounds like you're being ripped off.

I threatened to leave Vodafone and join 3 - then they beat their tariff. I have stop the clock - which means for the 'cost' of 3 inclusive minutes, I can talk for up to an hour to landline and vodafone mobiles. Hence, I don't need any more minutes because that allows me to talk for hours and hours in a week.

£35 a month is very expensive for what you're getting. Compare it to mine...

I bet you're on 18 month contract too.

OllyW
Sep 17, 2007, 05:54 AM
Vodafone has the best coverage in the UK, the best network (3G) but not always the best prices (their PAYG has the worst pricing). O2 is second, Orange 3rd & T-mobile is plain rubbish. It would have been a lot worse if Orange or T-mobile had gotten the contract in the UK. O2 spent stacks in getting a 3G license but don't have a 3G network!

In the end its all horses for courses & it will come down to this (so network really doesn't matter):

1. If you can buy the iphone from Apple direct, unlock it & use it on any network without signing up/activating with O2 like people are doing in the US with AT&T, then it will be a winner.

2. The price will be £269 + £35-£40 per month + 18-24 month contract - Despite the quality product I suspect this will be a hard sell for the UK. The rule here is if you pay that kind of money for your handset then it is PAYG/sim free, if you pay that kind of money for a monthly tariff then your phone is undoubtedly free, only businesses take out 24 month contracts.

iPhone poll at Macworld UK (http://www.macworld.co.uk/polls/index.cfm?action=showresults&pid=292)

I'm with the free option :)

DAC47
Sep 17, 2007, 05:57 AM
So not much chance of a Pay-As-You-Go iPhone on O2 then?

Yixian
Sep 17, 2007, 05:57 AM
Nobody in their right mind will pay more than £30pm on top of the cost of the iPhone. They'll get away with no 3G, but if it's any more than £30 a month this thing will crash into the side of the mountain.

gnasher729
Sep 17, 2007, 06:06 AM
It would silly to invest in inferior technology just to support the iPhone :confused:

Edge is a very minor update to the infrastructure if you have the underlying technology installed. Of course you don't upgrade to Edge if you are trying to push 3G, but it is very worthwhile if you want to support the iPhone.

firestarter
Sep 17, 2007, 06:10 AM
Just for reference, and ignoring VAT, the US base plan is:

£200 phone
£30 per month
450minutes, 200 text, 5000mins night + weekend
Unlimited data
Unlimited mobile to mobile

So, add VAT in, add Apple's 'Euro Tax' and add the fact that the UK mobile market is more cutthroat and I think we'll end up with:

£270 phone
£35 per month
500mins, 200 text
Unlimited data

Any more than that, and we're definately being ripped off.

aswitcher
Sep 17, 2007, 06:19 AM
Apple look like they are really recovering a loss lead on the iPhone R&D and manufacturing costs.

Glenny2lappies
Sep 17, 2007, 06:28 AM
Nobody in their right mind will pay more than £30pm on top of the cost of the iPhone. They'll get away with no 3G, but if it's any more than £30 a month this thing will crash into the side of the mountain.

A few will, most won't. That's why Apple dropped the price of the iPhone in the 'States. They sold out in the first couple or three weeks to the people that would cough up, but the 'masses' voted with their wallets and didn't buy.

The initial up-front cost of the iPhone isn't that relevant up against the ongoing costs of the contract. There's various factors to consider such as the lock-in time, inclusive minutes, out-of-plan costs and overall plan flexibility (things can and do change over time).

From what I see O2 is just about the worst for flexibility, lock-in time and out-of-plan costs. Any of these are a very bad thing; all mean that I probably won't bother.

Whist I really want an iPhone, I'm damned if I'm giving carte blanch to O2 to take me roughly from behind.

Lets face it, O2 better be competitive otherwise there'll be a huge number of iPhones that get sold but never connect to O2 - they'll be unlocked and used with any of the other networks at the best price plan. O2 can stick that in their pipe and smoke it.

retroneo
Sep 17, 2007, 06:30 AM
Actually, a simultaneous rollout is more likely. Europe is a more demanding phone market.

Perhaps Europe will get all upcoming models of iPhone first, just so they can remain secret for longer. They can't secretly launch them in the US, they have to disclose the details six months in advance to the FCC.

norbiu
Sep 17, 2007, 06:35 AM
So will you be able to buy an iPhone without immediately subscribing to the contract, like in the US?

If so, is there a way to unlock it without activating?

koobcamuk
Sep 17, 2007, 06:39 AM
Whist I really want an iPhone, I'm damned if I'm giving carte blanch to O2 to take me roughly from behind.

Lets face it, O2 better be competitive otherwise there'll be a huge number of iPhones that get sold but never connect to O2 - they'll be unlocked and used with any of the other networks at the best price plan. O2 can stick that in their pipe and smoke it.

I think the tech savvy will do this if they want one.

Everyone else... well they might not buy them. Over £35 per month is stupid - who pays that? Most people are buying up these £15 and £17.50 deals from the likes of Three. Nobody wants to pay £35 per month any more.

brucebrendon
Sep 17, 2007, 06:47 AM
well my boring opinion is that it will use the BT/o2 OpenZone WiFi network thingy.

yawn, stetch... i'll prob buy one, and i'll prob be annoyed i didn't wait longer for that 3.5G, 16GB and price cuts

Project
Sep 17, 2007, 06:48 AM
koob- it sounds like you have a great deal, but that really isnt the norm. Almost everybody I know pays £30-40 per month.

Phil A.
Sep 17, 2007, 06:50 AM
IMO, the mobile phone market in the UK is vastly different to the states - people simply don't expect to have to pay for their (locked) phones if they're on contract, and especially if there's a 2 year lock in. I use an i600 on Orange which is a £300 phone if you buy it "SIM Free" (i.e. unlocked) - I got it for the princely sum of £0 with a 12 month contract. If they want people to pay for the phone, then most would expect it to be SIM Free and to be able to connect it to whatever tariff / carrier they want. I love Apple products and when I saw the original keynote for the iPhone I had my credit card ready. However, since then I've come to realise that it's not such a great deal and not such a great phone (far too many missing features) and probably not for me. The fact that it looks as though they'll be O2 exclusive actually makes it easier for me to ignore it: O2 are hopeless and I wouldn't move to them under any circumstances...

Yixian
Sep 17, 2007, 07:00 AM
koob- it sounds like you have a great deal, but that really isnt the norm. Almost everybody I know pays £30-40 per month.

I take it almost everyone you know is a traveling businessman?

Nobody pays more than £30, and that's with a free phone. Most people pay £20 with the handset chucked in for free. The market here is waaaaaay more competative than in the US, Apple loyalty isn't going to sell more than a couple of thousand if it's freaking £350 with £40pm.

brucebrendon
Sep 17, 2007, 07:01 AM
1 month usage (WLAN Max)*
£12 per month (12 month minimum subscription period)
http://www.o2.co.uk/business/sme/mobiliseyouroffice/wlan

plus talkplan obv...

well my boring opinion is that it will use the BT/o2 OpenZone WiFi network thingy.

yawn, stetch... i'll prob buy one, and i'll prob be annoyed i didn't wait longer for that 3.5G, 16GB and price cuts

bilbo--baggins
Sep 17, 2007, 07:01 AM
IMO, the mobile phone market in the UK is vastly different to the states - people simply don't expect to have to pay for their (locked) phones if they're on contract, and especially if there's a 2 year lock in.

I've paid for my phones even with a contract over the last few years - because I've wanted the latest and greatest model of smartphone. It tends to be the simpler handsets, or the ones that have been around for a while that are free (unless you get a very expensive contract (eg. £50 per month upwards)

You could argue that most people that Apple are aiming at will be people that usually buy ordinary handsets and not smartphones, and so you could be right in saying that most people do expect to get the handset free with a contract.

However, Apple's argument is that people are currently paying for their iPod separately - so by getting an iPhone you're paying for an iPod, plus a bit extra for a phone that is better than anything you could get free.

Project
Sep 17, 2007, 07:06 AM
I take it almost everyone you know is a traveling businessman?

Nobody pays more than £30, and that's with a free phone. Most people pay £20 with the handset chucked in for free. The market here is waaaaaay more competative than in the US, Apple loyalty isn't going to sell more than a couple of thousand if it's freaking £350 with £40pm.


No. I'm a student. Standard £30 plans are the norm for most of my friends. And given how much they use the phone, £50-80 bills are common.

dalvin200
Sep 17, 2007, 07:06 AM
However, Apple's argument is that people are currently paying for their iPod separately - so by getting an iPhone you're paying for an iPod, plus a bit extra for a phone that is better than anything you could get free.

i think that is precisely what a lot of people need to understand about the cost of the iPhone
you are paying for an iPod (touch) + a phone on top..

phatspider
Sep 17, 2007, 07:22 AM
I take it almost everyone you know is a traveling businessman?

Nobody pays more than £30, and that's with a free phone. Most people pay £20 with the handset chucked in for free. The market here is waaaaaay more competative than in the US, Apple loyalty isn't going to sell more than a couple of thousand if it's freaking £350 with £40pm.

Haha - you seem to speak with a sound of authority - but what you're saying is nonsense!

Just look at the reported revenue figures for the networks and you'll see the ARPU (average revenue per user) which is quoted exc VAT is over £300 a year

Whats more - thats an average across the whole base - people who buy the iPhone are more likely to spend more, talk more, text more etc

freediverdude
Sep 17, 2007, 07:30 AM
From what I'm hearing the UK sounds pretty similar to the US actually. Here in the US people are used to getting a handset for free or very low cost when they sign up for a contract as well. But yet look at how well the iPhone did here- people were willing to pay for it. I don't think it was just smartphone users who were used to paying extra for a higher end handset either. Like myself, for example. I was never a smartphone user, but I sure wanted an iPhone.

john.burn
Sep 17, 2007, 07:40 AM
Just walked through touchwood in Solihull today and noticed the O2 shop has a sign on the door saying not open until 11am tomorrow... Maybe just a coincidence however!


John.

mkjj
Sep 17, 2007, 07:46 AM
Just walked through touchwood in Solihull today and noticed the O2 shop has a sign on the door saying not open until 11am tomorrow... Maybe just a coincidence however!


John.

The one in Southport was being "refurbished" on Saturday????

EVH
Sep 17, 2007, 07:46 AM
Here's a good question;

Will the iActivator program work with 02? I only ask because if the code is AT&T specific then the UK market will have to wait for the devs to modify the code.. something that will seem VERRRRRY long if you've bought an iPhone and don't want to use it without being unlocked.

I'm a bit bummed as I was 02 last year and swapped to Orange on a business plan.. so I have to fricken cancel and go back, oh well :cool:

Here's hoping they release it on the 18th.

Project
Sep 17, 2007, 07:47 AM
From what I'm hearing the UK sounds pretty similar to the US actually. Here in the US people are used to getting a handset for free or very low cost when they sign up for a contract as well. But yet look at how well the iPhone did here- people were willing to pay for it. I don't think it was just smartphone users who were used to paying extra for a higher end handset either. Like myself, for example. I was never a smartphone user, but I sure wanted an iPhone.


It is a similar market in that respect. General consumer phones are often free on a contract in the States too. More often than not it's the smartphones that you pay a fee for.

Yixian
Sep 17, 2007, 07:49 AM
Haha - you seem to speak with a sound of authority - but what you're saying is nonsense!

Just look at the reported revenue figures for the networks and you'll see the ARPU (average revenue per user) which is quoted exc VAT is over £300 a year

Whats more - thats an average across the whole base - people who buy the iPhone are more likely to spend more, talk more, text more etc

Not the sharpest knife in the draw are you mate?

(300 x 1.175) / 12 = £29.30

That's still less than 30, and as you said, that's across the whole base. Most of the public is going to be right down in the £20s, it's the small number of people who rely on their phones as a business who might spend £100+ a month, so unless Apple is content with that small number of actual handset sales, they're going to need to price lower than that.

AND that's often with free handsets.

Next time you accuse me of nonsense, check to see if you haven't already disproven your point in your own freaking post.

Glenny2lappies
Sep 17, 2007, 08:05 AM
... O2 are hopeless and I wouldn't move to them under any circumstances...

Apple have to realise that the reason they "probably" got a great deal is that O2 are desperate. I'm sure I don't have to lecture Steve on this, but if a deal seems too good to be true, it probably is.

O2 will have to come up with a *really* compelling reason for Phil A and myself to move to it. Taking the piss with price isn't the right answer.

And, just to stress the point, if Apple do announce tomorrow that it's O2 with an expensive contract, I will be rather narked and Apple's reputation will be damaged.

mkjj
Sep 17, 2007, 08:06 AM
Sounds like you're being ripped off.

£35 a month is very expensive for what you're getting. Compare it to mine...

I bet you're on 18 month contract too.


Just looked at Vodafone, to get similar it is £50 on a 12 month (£40 on a 18) with no long weekends. Add the stop the clock for £5 then that's £20 more than I'm paying now! Do you pay for Stop the clock? that takes yours to £20 a month (you may be existing customer and the gave you that for free). Mine includes the roaming charge for reduced internatoinal calls also and as we go on holiday at least three times a year this is great. My plan is fine for me and yours for you, I can't be watching the clock when talking, I have a gabby wife!

I bet more people pay nearer £30 than £15!

Would not use 3 until they prove themselves a bit more.

whistler72
Sep 17, 2007, 08:11 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/1C28 Safari/419.3)

wow! Apple sure knows how to get what they want!

Plumbstone
Sep 17, 2007, 08:16 AM
People should remember that Apple doesn't want everyone to buy this phone straight away, they want their product to feel exclusive and special upon release to create more of a buzz about it and increase long term demand (as well as making a load more money!!). This was proved when Apple cut $200 off the price 2 months after the US launch, as they had effectively overpriced it.

I am sure they will do a similar thing in the UK, there are plenty of people in London esspecially who can afford to pay over the odds for it and I am sure they will do. Once the initial excitement dies down they upgrade the product, drop the price and sales go through the roof. I reckon we will see iPhones in stores tomorrow at 11, but they won't be cheap!!

Compile 'em all
Sep 17, 2007, 08:16 AM
So will you be able to buy an iPhone without immediately subscribing to the contract, like in the US?

If so, is there a way to unlock it without activating?

I assume one would be able to buy it without a contract but a contract is needed to USE it. Just like in the US.

Concerning the unlock, this will be tricky. It is highly probable that iPhone will have the new firmware installed, rendering the unlock patch useless.

Project
Sep 17, 2007, 08:18 AM
Not the sharpest knife in the draw are you mate?

(300 x 1.175) / 12 = £29.30

That's still less than 30, and as you said, that's across the whole base. Most of the public is going to be right down in the £20s, it's the small number of people who rely on their phones as a business who might spend £100+ a month, so unless Apple is content with that small number of actual handset sales, they're going to need to price lower than that.

AND that's often with free handsets.

Next time you accuse me of nonsense, check to see if you haven't already disproven your point in your own freaking post.

Sorry mate, but you are wrong on this one. The £300 includes all of their prepay accountss, which have a far lower APRU than contracts. Here are the figures from O2's own financial statements.

2. Average revenue per user (ARPU)(1) - £

O2 UK (2)

Quarterly monthly average
Pre-pay 11 12 12 12 12
Post-pay 43 44 43 42 43
Blended 22 23 23 22 23

So the average revenue per user per month on contract is £43. Thats £512 per annum. For PAYG its £144.

Plutonius
Sep 17, 2007, 08:20 AM
i think that is precisely what a lot of people need to understand about the cost of the iPhone
you are paying for an iPod (touch) + a phone on top..

Very good point. What does a 8G iPod (touch) go for in the UK ?

Glenny2lappies
Sep 17, 2007, 08:20 AM
Concerning the unlock, this will be tricky. It is highly probable that iPhone will have the new firmware installed, rendering the unlock patch useless.

Interesting issue for Apple. If the phone's easily unlockable, they'll sell more, but won't get the revenues. They'll also probably leave themselves open to litigation from the telcos they've signed up.

Sure, they can't be seen to allow unlocking, but I'm sure they don't need to retrospectively and actively block the unblockers.

Glenny2lappies
Sep 17, 2007, 08:22 AM
i think that is precisely what a lot of people need to understand about the cost of the iPhone
you are paying for an iPod (touch) + a phone on top..

And not to forget a decent small-format web browser - something that's really important to me.

mkjj
Sep 17, 2007, 08:31 AM
With all this talk, checked out o2, VF sites and seems your are getting less minutes now than say last year, definately not as many benefits.

My plan now is 750 and 100 texts.

Seems the best way is to stay with a provider and haggle when it comes to renewing!

3 seems to have good plans and pretty cheap. Quite impressive.

Stella
Sep 17, 2007, 08:33 AM
Interesting issue for Apple. If the phone's easily unlockable, they'll sell more, but won't get the revenues. They'll also probably leave themselves open to litigation from the telcos they've signed up.

Sure, they can't be seen to allow unlocking, but I'm sure they don't need to retrospectively and actively block the unblockers.

Telcos that have other exclusive phones - do they sue the manufacturers if those phones get unlocked? If not, then iPhone won't be much different, just higher profile.

emotion
Sep 17, 2007, 08:36 AM
I am sure they will do a similar thing in the UK, there are plenty of people in London esspecially who can afford to pay over the odds for it and I am sure they will do. Once the initial excitement dies down they upgrade the product, drop the price and sales go through the roof. I reckon we will see iPhones in stores tomorrow at 11, but they won't be cheap!!

Given Apple are reportedly getting upto 40% of the revenues, this hints at a very low price for the iPhone. This also means that they'll need to make sure it can't be unlocked easily.

Tobsen
Sep 17, 2007, 08:41 AM
www.t-mobile.de/iphone now produces a connection error not a server error like www.t-mobile.de/iphon ;)

dernhelm
Sep 17, 2007, 08:46 AM
Let me get this straight. There are a number of posters concerned about whether or not O2 will make enough money selling the iPhone?

For some reason, I can't get worked up about whether a cellular phone company can make enough money.

Apple has a killer product. O2 had to outbid a bunch of other suitors to get it. They did so because they felt it strategically important to their business. They did so knowing about an unlock. They aren't stupid, and believe me, they are watching their pocketbook.

Somehow I think it'll turn out just fine for them.

phatspider
Sep 17, 2007, 08:50 AM
Not the sharpest knife in the draw are you mate?

(300 x 1.175) / 12 = £29.30

That's still less than 30, and as you said, that's across the whole base. Most of the public is going to be right down in the £20s, it's the small number of people who rely on their phones as a business who might spend £100+ a month, so unless Apple is content with that small number of actual handset sales, they're going to need to price lower than that.

AND that's often with free handsets.

Next time you accuse me of nonsense, check to see if you haven't already disproven your point in your own freaking post.

Actually the reported figure for VF last year was £314 - so that does take ou over £30 a month MRPU

And thats fully blended across all users from PrePay to corporate

phatspider
Sep 17, 2007, 08:51 AM
Sorry mate, but you are wrong on this one. The £300 includes all of their prepay accountss, which have a far lower APRU than contracts. Here are the figures from O2's own financial statements.

2. Average revenue per user (ARPU)(1) - £

O2 UK (2)

Quarterly monthly average
Pre-pay 11 12 12 12 12
Post-pay 43 44 43 42 43
Blended 22 23 23 22 23

So the average revenue per user per month on contract is £43. Thats £512 per annum. For PAYG its £144.

Thanks - you put my point across much better than I did ;)

norbiu
Sep 17, 2007, 08:52 AM
I assume one would be able to buy it without a contract but a contract is needed to USE it. Just like in the US.

Concerning the unlock, this will be tricky. It is highly probable that iPhone will have the new firmware installed, rendering the unlock patch useless.

Chances are most likely 0 for this thing to land on Vodafone. :( The modmyiphone team will hopefully update the iActivator and then be able to use an unlocking software to free that sucker.

Mitch1984
Sep 17, 2007, 08:59 AM
i think that is precisely what a lot of people need to understand about the cost of the iPhone
you are paying for an iPod (touch) + a phone on top..


Well you're paying for a phone on top instead of an extra 8GB.

firestarter
Sep 17, 2007, 09:06 AM
Let me get this straight. There are a number of posters concerned about whether or not O2 will make enough money selling the iPhone?

For some reason, I can't get worked up about whether a cellular phone company can make enough money.

Apple has a killer product. O2 had to outbid a bunch of other suitors to get it. They did so because they felt it strategically important to their business. They did so knowing about an unlock. They aren't stupid, and believe me, they are watching their pocketbook.

Somehow I think it'll turn out just fine for them.

Noone would disagree with you.

I'm not concerned whether O2 make money or not. They're a very successful business, and I'm sure they will be fine.

The worry here is that if Apple are charging them a lot... then it's us who will end up paying! So until we find out the plan costs tomorrow, these stories about Apple taking a large cut of the revenue can only be a negative indicator of the price.

emotion
Sep 17, 2007, 09:12 AM
The worry here is that if Apple are charging them a lot... then it's us who will end up paying! So until we find out the plan costs tomorrow, these stories about Apple taking a large cut of the revenue can only be a negative indicator of the price.

Which price? It indicates that Apple could be selling the iPhone at a low price (sub-£200) and suplementing the purchase income with a relatively high contract price.

In much the same way as networks currently make the N95, for example, free.

This relies on Apple making it difficult to unlock. Not a great strategy imo.

megfilmworks
Sep 17, 2007, 09:15 AM
that's pretty retarded... with the unlock coming around the corner, why would somebody bid that high?
The unlock isn't coming, it's here. The average consumer doesn't know, care or want to unlock their phone. The small percentage that know or understand about unlocking may see no advantage to crippling the features of their phone for no financial or feature gain.

dernhelm
Sep 17, 2007, 09:23 AM
Noone would disagree with you.

I'm not concerned whether O2 make money or not. They're a very successful business, and I'm sure they will be fine.

The worry here is that if Apple are charging them a lot... then it's us who will end up paying! So until we find out the plan costs tomorrow, these stories about Apple taking a large cut of the revenue can only be a negative indicator of the price.

If Apple charged less, who's to say that O2 would pass any savings along to you anyway? It's a bit naive to think that simply because Apple gets a cut of the plan price, that the plan price would be any lower if they didn't get that cut.

Stella
Sep 17, 2007, 09:26 AM
The unlock isn't coming, it's here. The average consumer doesn't know, care or want to unlock their phone. The small percentage that know or understand about unlocking may see no advantage to crippling the features of their phone for no financial or feature gain.


That maybe in the u.s, but in the UK I think a lot more people know what unlocking is and the benefits of ; people in the UK are generally more knowledgeable than say, the states regarding this. A lot of people I know in the UK have had their phones unlocked purely for the benefit of being able to use a non-uk SIM card when they travel.

In fact, OFCOM often recommends that you don't use roaming when going abroad on your cell phone, instead, buy a local SIM card to reduce cell phone charges.

McScooby
Sep 17, 2007, 09:42 AM
O2 are starting to advertise and increase awareness/put in the contract details about it's EDGE network - a system it wrote off previously. That in it's self doesn't look for a 3G iPhone

I wonder how O2 shareholders feel after they back them to spend Billions on a 3G license ?

o2 never bought a 3G licence!!

It was under ownership of BTCellnet at the time and when this business was sold to MM02 for about £3.5/£4 billion at the time, BT under the terms of the sale accepted the cost of the licence just to get shot of the whole operation, this business was then sold to Telefonica, so all in all sharholders should be ok 'bout it!

o2 were late coming to the table to offer 3G and data plans, so in comparison to T-Mobe, Orange, Voda and 3 it is expected that their coverage will seem somewhat slack (I think I'm right in saying that voda and t-mobe are in the process of a deal to arrange cross sharing of their masts)

Not that I'm defending o2 though, their coverage in Glasgow and west of sctotland is absolutely shocking compared to Voda, etc!!

MrT8064
Sep 17, 2007, 09:44 AM
[QUOTE=Stella;4193437]

stella is horrid, guinness is real beer.

is anyone offering live coverage of the event tommorow?

MrT8064
Sep 17, 2007, 09:55 AM
having a look on the O2 site, the N95, a seriously good phone comes in at:

199£, 25£/month, 18months - 200min, 400txts

FREE, 30£/month, 18months - 400min, 1000txts

perhaps its data that would make the iPhone more costly?


also, is it normal in an american contract to only have 200texts? 'cos is britains generally like more texts than minutes

Manic Mouse
Sep 17, 2007, 10:00 AM
[QUOTE=Stella;4193437]

stella is horrid, guinness is real beer.


Guinness is a stout.

Unspeaked
Sep 17, 2007, 10:02 AM
I think there's a misconception in this thread, as several Europeans have stated that things are different over there because consumers expect to get phones for free when paying £30+ for a data plan.

That's NO DIFFERENT than the US. When the iPhone was released, $599 for a mobile phone with a 2 year (!!!) commitment and $60+ price plan *was* unheard of.

Most people here sign up 1 year contract at the most, and I'd say AT LEAST 75% of folks get their phones free, and most of the remaining 25% pay a pittance.

So the environment is a lot more similar than some folks seem to think...

Manic Mouse
Sep 17, 2007, 10:04 AM
having a look on the O2 site, the N95, a seriously good phone comes in at:

199£, 25£/month, 18months - 200min, 400txts

FREE, 30£/month, 18months - 400min, 1000txts

perhaps its data that would make the iPhone more costly?


also, is it normal in an american contract to only have 200texts? 'cos is britains generally like more texts than minutes

I currently pay £19 a month with O2 and get 300 minutes (off peak), 500 messages and 20 minutes on peak for emergencies. Those pay monthly tarrifs look pretty poor in comparison. I'd rather pay more for a phone and not be screwed for years with an expensive contract. Which is why I don't like Apple demanding money from our monthly fee, it'll just mean more expensive contracts which will cost the consumer in the long run.

EDIT: Actually the £30 contract looks OK (with 1,000 texts). If that included unlimited data in that price I would be perfectly happy to pay that.

MysterMac
Sep 17, 2007, 10:04 AM
Is anyone providing coverage of tomorrows announcement ? Or know the best place to go online to get the news ?
:apple:

koobcamuk
Sep 17, 2007, 10:09 AM
koob- it sounds like you have a great deal, but that really isnt the norm. Almost everybody I know pays £30-40 per month.

No. I'm a student. Standard £30 plans are the norm for most of my friends. And given how much they use the phone, £50-80 bills are common.

They should definitely learn to threaten the companies...

I've paid for my phones even with a contract over the last few years - because I've wanted the latest and greatest model of smartphone. It tends to be the simpler handsets, or the ones that have been around for a while that are free (unless you get a very expensive contract (eg. £50 per month upwards)

You should threaten to leave. Do this and you'll get most stuff for free. That's what I did. I got a +£300 phone for free, the week it came out.

Even the Nokia N95 is free on contract (£30) at the moment. dunno where your £50 comes from...

grappler
Sep 17, 2007, 10:24 AM
Wouldn't apple be better off if they gave their wireless provider a better deal, thus allowing them to improve their network infrastructure and therefore their service quality and public image?

emotion
Sep 17, 2007, 10:31 AM
Wouldn't apple be better off if they gave their wireless provider a better deal, thus allowing them to improve their network infrastructure and therefore their service quality and public image?

If O2/Telefonica need this kind of help from a handset manufacturer something is terribly wrong.

Project
Sep 17, 2007, 10:31 AM
Wouldn't apple be better off if they gave their wireless provider a better deal, thus allowing them to improve their network infrastructure and therefore their service quality and public image?

What makes you think they would do that? The extra money would go the pockets of Shareholders.

You should threaten to leave. Do this and you'll get most stuff for free. That's what I did. I got a +£300 phone for free, the week it came out.

Right, so like I said in my first post, you got a great deal and are in the minority. The fact is most people spend double that per month. As we just pointed out, the APRU is over £40 a month.

ANTMUZ
Sep 17, 2007, 10:31 AM
Well, it sure looks like O2 is allowed to subsidise the phone a little bit (especially if they're sharing 40% of tariff income).

I'm going for £199 for the Edge 8GB iPhone, starting at £30 a month with unlimited data, 100 minutes, 200 texts. I may just be convinced at those prices.

That's the same price of the Touch, but with the Touch you don't need a subscription making a firm difference between the products. Also £199 is around the same price of the US phone to keep everyone happy!

Manic Mouse
Sep 17, 2007, 10:33 AM
I'm going for £199 for the Edge 8GB iPhone, starting at £30 a month with unlimited data, 100 minutes, 200 texts. I may just be convinced at those prices.

Are you INSANE? That's a pathetic tariff for £30, you'd rather pay about £100 less for your iPhone and end up paying hundreds upon hundreds of pounds more than you should on your tariff? Madness.

Project
Sep 17, 2007, 10:37 AM
Id pay £35 for unlimited data, 400 texts, 400 minutes. Possibly £40 as the unlimited data would be a huge selling point for me.

Manic Mouse
Sep 17, 2007, 10:42 AM
Id pay £35 for unlimited data, 400 texts, 400 minutes. Possibly £40 as the unlimited data would be a huge selling point for me.

Again, you people are crazy. I pay £19 for 300 mins and 500 texts. The current O2 £30 contracts have 1,000 texts and 400 minutes and that's with a subsidised phone (which the iPhone wont be).

Considering you have to buy the phone at full price I'd say the tariff should be the about 400 mins, 700 texts and unlimited data for £30.

CalBoy
Sep 17, 2007, 10:50 AM
Perhaps Europe will get all upcoming models of iPhone first, just so they can remain secret for longer. They can't secretly launch them in the US, they have to disclose the details six months in advance to the FCC.

Nope, not going to happen. The US is Apple's "home" market, and Apple always releases new products in the US first, or at the same time as other markets. I'm sure the EU has similar disclosure rules like the FCC (in fact, they're probably stricter and more demanding than ours;)).

Project
Sep 17, 2007, 10:52 AM
Again, you people are crazy. I pay £19 for 300 mins and 500 texts. The current O2 £30 contracts have 1,000 texts and 400 minutes and that's with a subsidised phone (which the iPhone wont be).

Considering you have to buy the phone at full price I'd say the tariff should be the about 400 mins, 700 texts and unlimited data for £30.


So an extra 300 texts makes you not crazy? Give me a break.

I would gladly pay my £35 if it meant unlimited data. Because right now on O2 it costs about £10 for 20MB.

Now that, is crazy.

Glenny2lappies
Sep 17, 2007, 10:53 AM
Considering you have to buy the phone at full price I'd say the tariff should be the about 400 mins, 700 texts and unlimited data for £30.

One of the reasons I like the iPhone is the ease that one can type. I've always hated typing on a 12 key digital keyboard, and have used a stylus style phone for years (P900). When I used the iPhone recently, it was so damn easy to type that I'm sure I'll be using texts far more often.

Why hasn't texting caught on in the 'States like it has in Europe?

cliffjumper68
Sep 17, 2007, 10:54 AM
Hope the T-mobile version will work states side.

megfilmworks
Sep 17, 2007, 10:54 AM
That maybe in the u.s, but in the UK I think a lot more people know what unlocking is and the benefits of ; people in the UK are generally more knowledgeable than say, the states regarding this. A lot of people I know in the UK have had their phones unlocked purely for the benefit of being able to use a non-uk SIM card when they travel.

In fact, OFCOM often recommends that you don't use roaming when going abroad on your cell phone, instead, buy a local SIM card to reduce cell phone charges.Just a word of warning then, you will void your warranty or AppleCare plan, and if your provider wants to they can brick your phone instantly. Doesn't sound worth it to me. Also I like all the features that the legitimate provider will give that the alternate can't. i.e. visual voicemail
Seems like a big risk for so little gain.

Manic Mouse
Sep 17, 2007, 10:55 AM
So an extra 300 texts makes you not crazy? Give me a break.

I would gladly pay my £35 if it meant unlimited data. Because right now on O2 it costs about £10 for 20MB.

Now that, is crazy.

Yeah it is. I think the networks are slowly heading towards unlimited data, I keep seeing adverts from T-Mobile, Vodaphone et al about mobile internet. They realise that as phones become more and more powerful and like computers the internet is going to be more and more important.

CalBoy
Sep 17, 2007, 10:56 AM
Why hasn't texting caught on in the 'States like it has in Europe?

Oh, just ask any teenager, and they'll give you a texted response. Frankly, that's what some people view texting as: an immature habit (in the US). I personally find it useful only when I can't get enough reception, or when I have to be quiet. Otherwise, I'd prefer talking to the person. Text just doesn't have the ability to portray emotions and tones as well as the human voice.

Manic Mouse
Sep 17, 2007, 10:57 AM
One of the reasons I like the iPhone is the ease that one can type. I've always hated typing on a 12 key digital keyboard, and have used a stylus style phone for years (P900). When I used the iPhone recently, it was so damn easy to type that I'm sure I'll be using texts far more often.

Why hasn't texting caught on in the 'States like it has in Europe?

The reason texting is so popular in Europe is because phoning on mobiles is so expensive which isn't the case in the US. They get such good rates on calls that it's probably cheaper to call and tell someone something than text them, whereas here it's the opposite.

Although with the email on the iPhone I can see myself emailing my iPhone owning friends rather than texting them.

koobcamuk
Sep 17, 2007, 11:12 AM
The fact is most people spend double that per month. As we just pointed out, the APRU is over £40 a month.

If people are that ***king stupid, then they deserve to pay that much.

Why hasn't texting caught on in the 'States like it has in Europe?

USA obvsly aint srted. omg man, txting is like da main fing ere, rite?

It's a huge deal that people are forgetting how to spell bcoz they rite like dis all da time.

Project
Sep 17, 2007, 11:23 AM
If people are that ***king stupid, then they deserve to pay that much.



Those are the prices that are in the shop. Its a bit much to suggest they are stupid for paying the RRP. You got a great deal. Jolly ho.

The funny thing is, its those who pay the average who subsidise the people who ring up and threaten to change networks. Everybody can't be on the deal you have. Your network are prepared to keep you on that deal because it means a competitor doesn't have your business. But that model doesn't scale.

Stella
Sep 17, 2007, 11:27 AM
Just a word of warning then, you will void your warranty or AppleCare plan, and if your provider wants to they can brick your phone instantly. Doesn't sound worth it to me. Also I like all the features that the legitimate provider will give that the alternate can't. i.e. visual voicemail
Seems like a big risk for so little gain.

If you do a lot of foreign travel then unlocking will be very very useful - cutting down a lot of expense on roaming charges.

Visual voice mail is the only service other providers can't provide
( oh, other than EDGE.. if iPhone uses EDGE instead of 3G ).

koobcamuk
Sep 17, 2007, 11:28 AM
Those are the prices that are in the shop. Its a bit much to suggest they are stupid for paying the RRP. You got a great deal. Jolly ho.

The funny thing is, its those who pay the average who subsidise the people who ring up and threaten to change networks. Everybody can't be on the deal you have. Your network are prepared to keep you on that deal because it means a competitor doesn't have your business. But that model doesn't scale.

Actually, its because I used to be one of those people. Bills of £60 were common. How about, when people finish their contracts, they all do this... see what happens.

Here... http://www.three.co.uk/personal/index.omp you can see for £15 a great deal. Anyway, we've lost topic and are arguing about tariffs. I won't buy an iPhone.

alexf
Sep 17, 2007, 11:32 AM
Of interest, they describe that Apple pursued a "divide and conquer" strategy in partnering the iPhone in Europe, pitting carriers against each other. In the end, O2 won the deal, but at a high price:

...at the 11th hour O2 snatched the UK deal with an offer that gave such a high proportion of revenues to Apple that none of its competitors could see any way of making any return on the phone, even over three years. They believed that even if it was treated as purely a loss-leading marketing product, a better return could be had by spending the money elsewhere.


Yep, sounds like an ugly American alright.

Project
Sep 17, 2007, 11:56 AM
Here... http://www.three.co.uk/personal/index.omp you can see for £15 a great deal. Anyway, we've lost topic and are arguing about tariffs. I won't buy an iPhone.


£15 - 200 minutes, 50 texts and an 18 month contract.


I guess you get what you pay for.

sananda
Sep 17, 2007, 11:57 AM
Maybe o2 are giving away 40% of revenues because Apple have allowed them to subsidise the phone, as is pretty normal in the UK.

Well, it sure looks like O2 is allowed to subsidise the phone a little bit (especially if they're sharing 40% of tariff income).


am i being thick or something? because i don't understand why revenue sharing would make it more likely that the phone is to be subsidised. i would have thought it was the opposite. presumably these people subsidise the handset to induce people to sign up to a contract and the recover the cost of the subsidy from the monthly charges. so if they have a lower amount to keep from the monthly charges surely they are considerably less likely to be able to afford the subsidise the handset.

Jowl
Sep 17, 2007, 12:11 PM
Have you seen O2's 3G coverage? Pretty meagre and definitely hasn't been invested heavily in.

Map. (http://www.gsmworld.com/cgi-bin/ni_map.pl?cc=gb&net=c3)

BUt they paid huge amounts for the actual License...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/09/14/o2_edge/

oober_freak
Sep 17, 2007, 12:18 PM
Do you realize how awesome that would be if they released the iPhone in the UK on September 18th? I'm moving to London on the 20th!!! :D

24th here. :)

Going to university?

MrT8064
Sep 17, 2007, 12:27 PM
just asking if anyone wants to suggest launch day.

i say NOT tommorow, as they like to build hype,

possibly mid oct, giving a month to tell everyone about it

or late oct/early nov, to cash in on the christmas spending!!

any guesses?

alFR
Sep 17, 2007, 12:32 PM
Unless Apple pulls out a trump card in the form of 3G, and a decent camera that includes video, then the iPhone is not going to appeal to many UK buyers, used to higher-spec phones. Especially if it's going to be expensive.

Guys, guys, before there's too much gnashing of teeth consider the following: we (and everyone else outside Apple and, presumably, o2) know squat about what the plans etc. are going to be. Anyone who knows will be NDAed to the eyes, so the only reliable thing to do is wait until tomorrow.

Also, whatever else they may be, Apple are not stupid. They must know that a core requirement of using an iPhone the way it's meant to be used is a decent unlimited data plan. So, that's more than likely what we'll get.

I agree with earlier posters that 3G is definitely NOT necessary for the iPhone to succeed in the UK. As long as EDGE works OK, the UI and other features will swing it IMHO. As I've posted in other threads, how many people use 3G data services to their full potential on their current handset anyway? Virtually no-one, because the 'phones are so damn hard to use and the data costs so much. Given a reasonable-price unlimited EDGE plan I reckon iPhone's a winner.

Regarding O2's customer service, I reckon they're all as bad as each other TBH. Can you tell me of a 'phone company that you've never heard ANYONE complain about? Thought not.... At least with the iPhone, for all hardware issues you'll be dealing with Apple.

sananda
Sep 17, 2007, 12:33 PM
if the press event is at 10 am....why is the store closed until 4pm? what do they plan to do in all that time?

norbiu
Sep 17, 2007, 12:41 PM
if the press event is at 10 am....why is the store closed until 4pm? what do they plan to do in all that time?

They're setting everything up for the new iPhones perhaps. :)

owen-b
Sep 17, 2007, 12:49 PM
You know what's missing from this thread?

Lots of totally speculative quotes of potential handset prices and tariffs. I think more people definitely need to weigh in with a bunch of total guesswork that doesn't actually add anything whatsoever to the discussion.

:)

Manic Mouse
Sep 17, 2007, 12:52 PM
You know what's missing from this thread?

Lots of totally speculative quotes of potential handset prices and tariffs. I think more people definitely need to weigh in with a bunch of total guesswork that doesn't actually add anything whatsoever to the discussion.

:)

Why don't you head over to forums.macfacts.com?

owen-b
Sep 17, 2007, 12:53 PM
Why don't you head over to forums.macfacts.com?
Because you won't be there.

Manic Mouse
Sep 17, 2007, 12:54 PM
Because you won't be there.

Awww how sweet, lol. :p

emotion
Sep 17, 2007, 01:04 PM
You know what's missing from this thread?

Lots of totally speculative quotes of potential handset prices and tariffs. I think more people definitely need to weigh in with a bunch of total guesswork that doesn't actually add anything whatsoever to the discussion.


Nevermind the complaining what's your guess? Based on what you've read on rumours pages of course.

I still think Apple might take a hit on the price if O2 really are coughing up 40%. No lower than to £199 though.

I suspect that 40% figure is more like 20% max. AT&T are rumoured to give up 10%.

Not long to go now.

To all the contract ninjas: Most people pay over the odds for the service they get. £30-35 for people who work is pretty much normal for phone bill.

norbiu
Sep 17, 2007, 02:15 PM
According to The Guardian

O2 wins Apple iPhone deal - at a hefty price
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2007/sep/17/mobilephones.apple

lewchenko
Sep 17, 2007, 02:44 PM
Going with o2 in the UK is an absolute scandal. Apple is a company that prides itself on standing out from the crowd; devices that are a thing of beauty, technology to covet.

So choosing o2 is a bit of a contradiction. Of course o2 would agree to the terms - they are losing customers hand over fist since being taken over by Telefonica. Inflexible upgrades (some times you cannot upgrade, they force you into a lesser yet more expensive contract), date plans stuck in the 1980's, Indian call centres manned by people they have dug out of the nearest mental asylum and UK customer services so bad that they make Virgin Media look like a beacon of achievement.

Apple should have been less stringent and used a more reputable provider that is on the rise rather than one who is finished. Seriously, it just makes sense to have Apple working with Vodafone or t-mobile.

:(

Never before have more true words been spoken. O2 is the worst carrier in the UK. The rip you off for everything, and are simply not competitive. (I couldnt believe just how much more expensive they were.. until I looked), My wife couldnt even cancel with them without them writing to us demanding money that we didnt owe, claiming they never received the cancellation letter (3 phone calls and 2 letters later.... Jesus!)

way to go apple. O2 sucks donkey balls, and I wouldnt want to be associated with them in the slightest.

What a disappointment.

megfilmworks
Sep 17, 2007, 02:46 PM
If you do a lot of foreign travel then unlocking will be very very useful - cutting down a lot of expense on roaming charges.

Visual voice mail is the only service other providers can't provide
( oh, other than EDGE.. if iPhone uses EDGE instead of 3G ).I agree, when I was in Ireland last week I saw billboards and ads for very inexpensive long distance cell rates. But my travel abroad is tax deductible, so @ $.99 a minute plus long distance when I talk to the U.S. (and $20 for 20 megs of data) is not unreasonable. Is that the only reason??

bumfilter
Sep 17, 2007, 02:50 PM
I'm excited about getting my hands on an iPhone in the UK but the major issue for me is the tariffs and the data plans. At £45 odd for 1024 MB per month without voice/sms including (or very limited), I won't be that impressed. I hope they come up with something clever or actually close to unlimited.

Project
Sep 17, 2007, 03:35 PM
Never before have more true words been spoken. O2 is the worst carrier in the UK. The rip you off for everything, and are simply not competitive. (I couldnt believe just how much more expensive they were.. until I looked), My wife couldnt even cancel with them without them writing to us demanding money that we didnt owe, claiming they never received the cancellation letter (3 phone calls and 2 letters later.... Jesus!)

way to go apple. O2 sucks donkey balls, and I wouldnt want to be associated with them in the slightest.

What a disappointment.

The iPhone is one of the few handsets that I will buy regardless of what network it appears on.

xStep
Sep 17, 2007, 03:40 PM
Its not insane. Its Apple and Apple alone who are bringing the customers in. Apple handles support for the phone. Apple handles marketing for the phone. And the network does not need to subsidise a penny. So you are essentially saying the networks should be getting new customers for free?
Good points.

On the flip side then, the fact that the music content controlled by the publishers is bringing the customers into to the iTunes store which helps sell iPods, and they also market the music, still suggests the music publishers should get a cut of the iPod. ;) Oh, iTunes is known to make a small profit, and, well, iPods make a very nice profit, so they are not subsidized either.

By the way, I think your argument holds up a little better than my previous paragraph simply because the music industry has zero investment in the iPod beyond the device driving sales of their content.

As for marketing, all the cell phone companies do marketing and the phone companies sometimes focus on a particular line. Who says the phone company isn't getting a kick back from the cell phone provider. Also, the marketing Apple is doing right now is large due to them entering a new business.

The most interesting statement you made was "So you are essentially saying the networks should be getting new customers for free?". Is Apple only getting a cut from new customers or all iPhone customers?

This whole argument is an endless circle. What counts isn't our opinion, but that companies are willing to sign these kind of deals in certain circumstances. It will be interesting to see how these exclusive deals help the cell phone operators bottom line.

megfilmworks
Sep 17, 2007, 03:43 PM
I agree with Project. Apple comes to a carrier and says, "How would you like to make a lot of money without spending any. And get more press than you ever have in your history?" Seems like winning the lottery to me.

xStep
Sep 17, 2007, 03:57 PM
I agree with Project. Apple comes to a carrier and says, "How would you like to make a lot of money without spending any. And get more press than you ever have in your history?" Seems like winning the lottery to me.
Supply, demand, and exclusivity. Apple has the hot product and that seems to be worth something to the phone companies. Great for Apple and the bit of Apple stock I own. :)

When Apple needs to futher expand its iPhone sales, they will be looking at different terms that will allow them to sell to more phone companies. Expect the revenue sharing to go down and eventually to zero. Well unless Apple sells like 50% of all cell phones! In that case the remaining phone companies will sign almost any deal. OK, that is just a big dream.

ANTMUZ
Sep 17, 2007, 04:27 PM
am i being thick or something? because i don't understand why revenue sharing would make it more likely that the phone is to be subsidised. i would have thought it was the opposite. presumably these people subsidise the handset to induce people to sign up to a contract and the recover the cost of the subsidy from the monthly charges. so if they have a lower amount to keep from the monthly charges surely they are considerably less likely to be able to afford the subsidise the handset.

Well if Apple say to o2 give us 10% and you can sell the phone £269.99. o2 might have said our customers won't like that, how about we sell it for £199.99 and we'll give you 40% of the monthly tariff. Or something like that. Revenue sharing is what allows phones to be subsidised.

So generally the more you spend monthly (or the higher the percentage of revenue given to the manufacturer by the network), the less you pay for the phone.

I'm not a telecoms expert but that's what I guess happens!