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MacRumors
Aug 21, 2003, 10:58 AM
Panther seems to hold the secrets of an upcoming Apple Wireless Mouse and Apple Wireless Keyboard.

As noted, the most recent Panther builds contain the previously hidden (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/08/20030817140827.shtml) Bluetooth Keyboard and Mouse control panel. Some users speculated that this addition to Panther may signal the support of an Apple-branded bluetooth keyboard and mouse, while others felt it may simply be support for third party peripherals.

However -- if you attempt to use the new Panther build's Bluetooth keyboard and mouse functionality, you are given these error messages:


"If you are using an Apple Wireless Mouse, slide the cover on the bottom of the mouse to expose the LED"

"If you are using an Apple Wireless Keyboard, move the switch on the back of the keyboard towards the LED"


Screenshots available at Chaosmint.com (http://www.chaosmint.com/apple-bluetooth-mouse-keyboard/).

tazznb
Aug 21, 2003, 11:02 AM
I hope they're nice, too!

MoparShaha
Aug 21, 2003, 11:05 AM
If its not a two button mouse with scroll, I'll go insane. C'mon apple, get with the 21st century.

esheep2001
Aug 21, 2003, 11:05 AM
And I just bought an MX700

Doh!

e.

Kwyjibo
Aug 21, 2003, 11:06 AM
very cool, i'm glad I have a computer with bluetooth now :)

tazznb
Aug 21, 2003, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by MoparShaha
If its not a two button mouse with scroll, I'll go insane. C'mon apple, get with the 21st century.

If it's not a 2-button mouse I may not purchase it (even if it matches the G5 tower's aluminum).

slightly
Aug 21, 2003, 11:07 AM
Now we need to find out what kind of powering/docking system Apple has up their sleeve. Maybe something combined?

Very exciting.

S

Niknar
Aug 21, 2003, 11:08 AM
Yes yes yes yes!!!

I have been wanting Apple to release a new mouse for so long! I hope it comes out soon because I will buy it as soon as it is out.

gothamac
Aug 21, 2003, 11:10 AM
I'm sure it'll be an option at additional cost.

onemilkid
Aug 21, 2003, 11:11 AM
It had to happend. Hope they found a good way for long battery life.

Imagine working and then you only have ten minutes left before you keyboard dies.

They need to have a cable anyways

MacManDan
Aug 21, 2003, 11:11 AM
Wow! I wonder if these will match the G5/iSight stylings (meshed aluminum). I suppose the bigger question is when will Apple announce these accessories?

I hope they're nice looking, a set of smooth, Apple wireless accessories would look great on my desk...

NavyIntel007
Aug 21, 2003, 11:12 AM
Knowing Apple, this is going to be expensive. I'll stick with my keyboard and mouse thanks.

MetallicPenguin
Aug 21, 2003, 11:13 AM
Awesome...can't wait to see what it looks like.

Delenn
Aug 21, 2003, 11:13 AM
If your PowerMac is capable of having an internal bluetooth module (I have non OS 9 bootable Dual 1.25 with Firewire 800), but you don't have the module, is there any way to install one, or do you have to get a USB gizmo to use this?

Freg3000
Aug 21, 2003, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by esheep2001
And I just bought an MX700

Doh!

e.

I was about to do the same, but then I heard the rumors of new Apple peripherals, so I held off. Maybe you could return your MX700?

Or maybe you wouldn't want to. I doubt this new Apple mouse is going to have 8 buttons like the MX 700.

mkaake
Aug 21, 2003, 11:14 AM
this should be really sweet!!


good eye person who found it!

matt

robotrenegade
Aug 21, 2003, 11:18 AM
About god damn time. Me happy.

Freg3000
Aug 21, 2003, 11:20 AM
Not sure if this is already known but...

The Mouse and Keyboard have been off the Apple Hardware (http://www.apple.com/hardware) site for a while now, but their links lead to the Apple Store.

Apple Keyboard (http://www.apple.com/keyboard)
Apple Mouse (http://www.apple.com/mouse)

Not that it means anything, it is just a bit interesting.

irmongoose
Aug 21, 2003, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by arn
Note:

Keyboard has an LED Switch.... meaning it's likely a Hybrid keyboard.

both Bluetooth and wired.

arn

I was surprised no one was catching on to that. This is certainly interesting... but I'm afraid the price is going to be a little too steep.

edit: Okay... and now your post is gone... ??



irmongoose

moosecat
Aug 21, 2003, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by irmongoose
I was surprised no one was catching on to that. This is certainly interesting... but I'm afraid the price is going to be a little too steep.

edit: Okay... and now your post is gone... ??



irmongoose

Arn's post IS gone. I never saw it.

About the switch, though: Isn't it possible that the switch simply turns "discoverability" on and off, so that you don't waste battery power being discoverable if you're not going to be using your keyboard for a while?

JetsonJams
Aug 21, 2003, 11:31 AM
Now if only Apple would make an ergonomic keyboard. I have mild carpal tunnel syndrome and have been using Microsoft Natural Keyboards for years now.

Another feature I'd like to see is the ability to switch the keyboard and mouse on-the-fly between different Bluetooth-enabled computers, including Windows boxes. Not sure how possible that is though.

GetSome681
Aug 21, 2003, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by esheep2001
And I just bought an MX700

Doh!

e.

DO NOT RETURN IT!

The mx700 will be a MUCH better mouse than this apple wireless mouse, pending the apple mouse operates over bluetooth. The radio technology that logitech uses in the mx700 is much faster than bluetooth, resulting in hardly no noticeable lag. If people try telling you otherwise, they don't know what they're talking, and have never done any real gaming with a bluetooth mouse.

arn
Aug 21, 2003, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by irmongoose
I was surprised no one was catching on to that. This is certainly interesting... but I'm afraid the price is going to be a little too steep.

edit: Okay... and now your post is gone... ??



yeah - I realized it may simply be a power switch.

arn

Niknar
Aug 21, 2003, 11:36 AM
It doesn't sound like it will have a dock.

More like you just plug-in a firewire cable when your mouse or keyboard is running alittle low on power then you could just use is as normal mouse until your back to full power.

Could help bring down the price as well because there will be no need for a dock.

esheep2001
Aug 21, 2003, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by Freg3000
I was about to do the same, but then I heard the rumors of new Apple peripherals, so I held off. Maybe you could return your MX700?

Or maybe you wouldn't want to. I doubt this new Apple mouse is going to have 8 buttons like the MX 700.

Well I have to say I do like the MX! My only gripe is that it's not as configurable as the wired MS explorer I was using before. With that you can assign buttons to different functions for _each app_. The MX allows you to change the button functionality but it remains the same for all apps. The reason I didn't go for the MS wireless was I'd heard really really bad things about battery life so that was a definite no go.

I'm gonna wait and see. If the apple stuff looks good and has the functionality I want then I'll get it any way and use the MX somewhere else.

e.

Gus
Aug 21, 2003, 11:38 AM
Sounds like this could be the mystery product that PowerPage was talking about.

I'm glad that Apple is going with this, but I also hope, like others, that it is a two-button mouse.

Regards,
Gus

P.S. After a couple of weeks, it sure feels good to have a solid rumor again. ;)

esheep2001
Aug 21, 2003, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by GetSome681
DO NOT RETURN IT!

The mx700 will be a MUCH better mouse than this apple wireless mouse, pending the apple mouse operates over bluetooth. The radio technology that logitech uses in the mx700 is much faster than bluetooth, resulting in hardly no noticeable lag. If people try telling you otherwise, they don't know what they're talking, and have never done any real gaming with a bluetooth mouse.

Now that's really interesting! What sort of technology does the MX700 use then? I have to say I was pleasantly suprised by the accuracy and responsiveness of the MX. Add to that NiMH, 8 buttons, scroll wheel, nice weight, docking station and you have a real winner.

e.

Powerbook G5
Aug 21, 2003, 11:47 AM
I believe Logitech uses RF istead of bluetooth. This is pretty cool, though, it's nice to see some concrete proof that Apple has something new and cool up their sleeves...even though I have a PowerBook and have no need to use them, it's just cool to know that they will be out there. If the mice do have multiple buttons, I might consider a bluetooth mouse for the times I may like to have the extra function over my single track button.

MM2270
Aug 21, 2003, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by MoparShaha
If its not a two button mouse with scroll, I'll go insane. C'mon apple, get with the 21st century.

Man, I couldn't agree more!! :rolleyes: For as much as I would LOVE an Apple bluetooth based wireless keyboard/mouse combo, there is NO way in hell I will give up the functionality I gain by having a Logitech scrollwheel mouse. It just wouldn't be worth it! PLEEEEASE Apple, give us more options that than that one stupid mouse button already!:mad:

GetSome681
Aug 21, 2003, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by esheep2001
Now that's really interesting! What sort of technology does the MX700 use then? I have to say I was pleasantly suprised by the accuracy and responsiveness of the MX. Add to that NiMH, 8 buttons, scroll wheel, nice weight, docking station and you have a real winner.

e.

It uses what they call "Fast RF Technology"
http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm?countryid=19&languageid=1&page=products/features/cordlesstopics&CRID=463&parentCRID=272&contentID=6076

It's basically just a radio frequency, but I forget at what exact frequency it runs at.

I'm not dissing any bluetooth mice, just saying that if you do anything more than casual surfing (especially fps gaming) a bluetooth mouse might not be for you.

zkmusa
Aug 21, 2003, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by esheep2001
And I just bought an MX700

Doh!

e.

Me too! There was an incredible deal at the Dell peripherals store that I just couldn't give up... dang, and the mouse is supposed to arrive today to my front door. Oh well, at least I'll have a year or two to wait for all the kinks to get worked out ... :rolleyes:

mdntcallr
Aug 21, 2003, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by tazznb
If it's not a 2-button mouse I may not purchase it (even if it matches the G5 tower's aluminum).
Tazzy


You are preaching to the converted!

I simply cannot use a 1 button mouse anymore, it is simply not as userfriendly and functional as a mouse with 2 buttons, a scroll wheel which also pushes down as a button.

Cmon, stop being so cheap apple! splurge for the extra 75 cents it will cost to make a mouse that way.

xtekdiver
Aug 21, 2003, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by esheep2001
And I just bought an MX700

Doh!

e.

Don't be too hasty master Merry! I have the MX700 and it is an awsome mouse. Apple will have to come out with a very good design indeed to top this; and considering their last attempts (do we remember the puck?) I'm not overly confident it will be better than the MX700. Besides, the MX already matches the G5 :cool:

walexx
Aug 21, 2003, 12:04 PM
For everyone concerned that the mouse will not have 2 buttons or a scroll wheel, I wouldnt be so worried.

Steve himself made a point of demonstrating Panther with a 2 button mouse and made several references to using a 2 button mouse to take advantage of alot of Panthers features.

It was pretty obvious back then that Panther was going to be a new way of doing things, and Steve himself was hinting at those changes by making so many references to using 2 button mouses.

Looks like Paris will be the perfect platform to debut the keyboards and mouses especially if that too is the time that Panther begins shipping.

Ive been waiting for this for a long time, now if only Apple would release the 15" powerbooks too Ill be a very happy boy :)

nagromme
Aug 21, 2003, 12:05 PM
I wouldn't criticize Bluteooth mice too soon. It may indeed be impossible to make one with excellent responsiveness--but it may be possible.

There's only BEEN one Bluetooth mouse in wide use--Microsoft's--so all we can really judge fairly is THAT mouse.

bperkins
Aug 21, 2003, 12:10 PM
I just bought the MS BT Mouse yesterday, and I was thinking to myself "wonder when Apple is going to release their BT mouse/keyboard". Ahhh not anytime soon I'll go ahead and get this one. Newman! It is a nice mouse though. Like the way it fits in hand, just wish it would allow me to configure the extra buttons. Apple's should be much better.

Well now we know. No date, but at least we know that it should be here before Panther is released.

esheep2001
Aug 21, 2003, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by Gus
I'm glad that Apple is going with this, but I also hope, like others, that it is a two-button mouse.

Two! I've been hooked on 3 buttons, scroll + back and forward for longer than I care to remember. The first thing I did when I switched (yes, I'm a 1st gen flat panel iMac switcher now awaiting my dual 2G G5) was try my MS explorer. The apple mouse simply sucks, big time. It was a nice philosophy when 'WIMP's first appeared on the scene but given the guys from Logitech are from the originators of the WIMP concept and themselves advocate these multi-button mice it's time apple followed suit.

Take a look here:
http://sloan.stanford.edu/mousesite/1968Demo.html
for some interesting history.

Note that Doug Engelbart is now director of his company, Bootstrap Institute and Bootstrap is housed rent free courtesy of the Logitech :-)

Two buttons? Nah, bring on the five button + scroll monster at least!

e.

proglife
Aug 21, 2003, 12:10 PM
An aluminum mouse with perforated skin would be excellent. A little fan in it would be awesome as well to keep the working hand cool (power consumption....I know...I know.....).

crayzaysean
Aug 21, 2003, 12:20 PM
and just think, if they used the old puck design u could play air-hockey with it too!:p

bukweet
Aug 21, 2003, 12:31 PM
Does the Logitech MX700 ship with OS X native software?

GetSome681
Aug 21, 2003, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by bukweet
Does the Logitech MX700 ship with OS X native software?

http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm?page=downloads/software&CRID=1792&contentid=6034&OSID=9&countryid=19&languageid=1

srobert
Aug 21, 2003, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by proglife
An aluminum mouse with perforated skin would be excellent.


Helloooooo mr. Gunk! lol

Mouses get dirty quickly enough as it is, got to wash it every few days. (And yes, I shower everyday) I wonder how dirt friendly perforated alu would be... and also, I'm not a big fan of how the G5 looks. I love it looking at it from the side... but front and back... oh well. If I get one, I'll set it on my desk so I get to look at it sideway.

mactastic
Aug 21, 2003, 12:43 PM
NO PUCKS!!!

I wonder about the rumors of the scroll wheel similar to the iPod's that were floating around for a while. Might be something even better than a traditional scroll wheel.

And I sure hope there it's got a wired solution as well as batteries. I love goin wireless, but you can't have your keyboard or mouse crap out on you in the middle of the night when a paper is due.

RalphNumbers
Aug 21, 2003, 12:48 PM
I was hoping that Apple would do something similar to the iPod.

The Keyboard/Mouse would have a built-in rechargable battery, and come with a 2-ended USB cable. So you could use it wireless, then when the batteries got low you could plug it in and use it wired while the batteries charged off of the USB power.

That's more of the kind of innovation I'd hope to see from Apple.

AllenPSU
Aug 21, 2003, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by tazznb
I hope they're nice, too!

I know that this is a nice to have item, but I don't see what the big deal is. If you wanted a wireless keyboard or mouse, you could get one from a third party.

esheep2001
Aug 21, 2003, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by bukweet
Does the Logitech MX700 ship with OS X native software?

Yes, but like I said before, it's not as flexible as the MS equivalent. Luckily the extra cruise and quick switch buttons can be reprogrammed and cover the extra funcionality I need.

e.

jaedreth
Aug 21, 2003, 12:51 PM
If they came with built in rechargable batteries, then the devices would be *far* more expensive, and no one would buy them.

Heck, they're likely to be more expensive than the third parties anyway.

So let's not go expecting the moon for the price of a few acres in backwoods Arkansas here...

Jaedreth

gothamac
Aug 21, 2003, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by mactastic
NO PUCKS!!!

I wonder about the rumors of the scroll wheel similar to the iPod's that were floating around for a while. Might be something even better than a traditional scroll wheel.

And I sure hope there it's got a wired solution as well as batteries. I love goin wireless, but you can't have your keyboard or mouse crap out on you in the middle of the night when a paper is due.


You can buy a 4 pack of AA batteries for a buck at any dollar store. They're much easier to find than AAA. My Logitech mouse has been using the same 2 batteries since a bought it 6 months ago, and I'm on the computer all the time. All this talk about batteries running out, try having a few packs on hand. ( 2 bucks, 8 fresh batteries)

mrwilly123
Aug 21, 2003, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by RalphNumbers
I was hoping that Apple would do something similar to the iPod.

The Keyboard/Mouse would have a built-in rechargable battery, and come with a 2-ended USB cable. So you could use it wireless, then when the batteries got low you could plug it in and use it wired while the batteries charged off of the USB power.

That's more of the kind of innovation I'd hope to see from Apple.

and maybe also like the ipod, it could have a dock that plugged into one end of that cable to drop the mouse in.

machan
Aug 21, 2003, 01:01 PM
it's not hard to buy rechargable batteries and a charger. i used the same 4 batteries in my portable cd player, everyday, for a year and a half before they started to go. i imagine with the low power consumption of a keyboard or mouse they would last a couple years at least.

brucku
Aug 21, 2003, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by JetsonJams
Now if only Apple would make an ergonomic keyboard. I have mild carpal tunnel syndrome and have been using Microsoft Natural Keyboards for years now.

Another feature I'd like to see is the ability to switch the keyboard and mouse on-the-fly between different Bluetooth-enabled computers, including Windows boxes. Not sure how possible that is though.


I have been trying to get responses on maccentral's chat boards , but no one seems to have info on this. Can I buy a bluetooth mouse for my windows box and hot swap it to my new PBG4 w/ bluetooth?

jaedreth
Aug 21, 2003, 01:09 PM
Yes, provided:

1) You make sure and pair the PC to the mouse at one time, and pair it to the mac at a totally different time. The range is 30 feet each way. Don't want interference.

2) The mouse is supported natively in OS X 10.2.

3) The mouse has drivers for OS X 10.2 if it isn't supported.

That's all it takes. You will have to set the mouse to discoverable on both machines.

But if the two computers are within 60 feet of each other, you might wind up with interference issues including controlling both cursors with one mouse at the same time. (Not likely, but it could happen)

Jaedreth

cnladd
Aug 21, 2003, 01:12 PM
I'm surprised that no one's asked this question yet of those that have the new builds of Panther:

Has anyone tried using existing Bluetooth mice (like Microsoft's product) with Panther yet?

I mean, Bluetooth is a pretty tight spec, so anything that acts as a Bluetooth pointing device should theoretically work (though I've heard that Microsoft implemented the spec a little bit differently with their products...)

Still, the screenshots clearly imply that Panther will support third-party Bluetooth devices.

If no one else has tried it yet, I'll try posting an update in a couple of days. I'm in the process of downloading the latest build and already have both the Microsoft Bluetooth products (for my Windows box) as well as a Bluetooth dongle for my Mac (for syncing my old T68i and printing to my boss' printer...)

esheep2001
Aug 21, 2003, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by RalphNumbers
I was hoping that Apple would do something similar to the iPod.

The Keyboard/Mouse would have a built-in rechargable battery, and come with a 2-ended USB cable. So you could use it wireless, then when the batteries got low you could plug it in and use it wired while the batteries charged off of the USB power.

That's more of the kind of innovation I'd hope to see from Apple.

Personally I prefer the Logitech cradle. No messing having to find the cable and fiddle with it plugging it in, just drop the mouse in and let it suck up the juice.

As for AA's. That's one of the reasons I went for the MX700! It takes 2 NiMH AA's which are recharged when the mouse is docked. That way when the batteries die after a few years all I need to do is pop out and buy some more or use ordinary AA's.

I'm actually quite bothered by my iPod having an internal battery. What will I do when that stops holding juice? Chuck it away?! Send it off for a replacement which will likely cost more than a new iPod? Only be able to use it when it's plugged in?

Nah! Easily replacable batteries are a much better option IMHO.

e.

MightyB
Aug 21, 2003, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by machan
it's not hard to buy rechargable batteries and a charger. i used the same 4 batteries in my portable cd player, everyday, for a year and a half before they started to go. i imagine with the low power consumption of a keyboard or mouse they would last a couple years at least.

This would be so unApple though, wouldn't it? :-(

gothamac
Aug 21, 2003, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by MightyB
This would be so unApple though, wouldn't it? :-(

What? Keeping it simple?

MightyB
Aug 21, 2003, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by gothamac
What? Keeping it simple?

Simple isn't pulling out rechargable batteries, charging them, putting them back in, repeat..

that was SO 1991! :D

ewinemiller
Aug 21, 2003, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by MoparShaha
If its not a two button mouse with scroll, I'll go insane. C'mon apple, get with the 21st century.

21st century? I'd be happy if they just got to about 1998 (wasn't that about the time scroll wheels started getting popular?) or so mouse technology!

capacity
Aug 21, 2003, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by ewinemiller
21st century? I'd be happy if they just got to about 1998 (wasn't that about the time scroll wheels started getting popular?) or so mouse technology!

Found this image in this MacNN Forums thread (http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1544967#post1545564). The guy found it while snooping around in Panther's files. It's one of those silhouette images that show up like when you change the volume or eject from the keyboard. Hate to burst your bubbles, but think it means the wireless mouse will look similar to the current one?

elmimmo
Aug 21, 2003, 01:50 PM
What has changed in ten years for Apple to decide that now it makes sense to release a 2 button mouse (I'll accept the scrollwheel) while it was not that useful then?

Whether or not you prefer a 2 button mouse or not, that would mean Apple has been plain stupid during all these years in mouse design.

If it is not one button I do not want it. Am I uncomfortable with 2 buttons? Not I am not, I am a Windows user most of the time and always hand configured lots certain file type's context menues (I mean, Windows' TRUE context menues) to add suboptions related to those particular file-types. But, as amazing as you may find it, my mother does not. She continually mistakes one for another and starts getting frustrated. And I do want my mother to find using the computer pleasant.

Besides, what is wrong with all those VERY GOOD third party 2 button + clickable scroll wheel ou there? Is it that they are not fashionable enough or what?

whawho
Aug 21, 2003, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by capacity
Found this image in this MacNN Forums thread (http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1544967#post1545564). The guy found it while snooping around in Panther's files. It's one of those silhouette images that show up like when you change the volume or eject from the keyboard. Hate to burst your bubbles, but think it means the wireless mouse will look similar to the current one?

Man, I was hoping that it was two button mouse with a scroll wheel... I still will hope, at least until they release it.

elmimmo
Aug 21, 2003, 01:57 PM
Definitely the most innovative and useful method for battery life concerns would be to implement this (http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/lights/5a9f/). Very good for preventing carpal tunnel syndrome, maybe not so much for tendinitis... And should they add two handles for the keyboard then?

whawho
Aug 21, 2003, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by elmimmo

Whether or not you prefer a 2 button mouse or not, that would mean Apple has been plain stupid during all these years in mouse design.


Apple's big thing has always been innovation. A one button mouse now-a-days is not very innovative. IMO

Powerbook G5
Aug 21, 2003, 01:59 PM
It's impossible to tell with just an outlined image, it may have the same shape/form, but that doesn't tell you if there are going to be more buttons or a scroll of some sort...we'll just have to wait and see.

matty8r
Aug 21, 2003, 02:00 PM
The thing that I just don't understand is why the keyboards need any power at all. I'm not an EE, but it seems to me that the energy generated by typing on keys could easily be captured and stored in a rechargable. As you use the keyboard, it gets more power. When not using the keyboard, the comminications die. they only start again once a key is pressed. Also, I see no reason for the mouse to need batteries. Why not have a pad or a dock where you store the mouse when away, sort of like the recargible electric toothbrushes. Batteries are a bummer.

Powerbook G5
Aug 21, 2003, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by elmimmo
Definitely the most innovative and useful method for battery life concerns would be to implement this (http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/lights/5a9f/). Very good for preventing carpal tunnel, maybe not so much for tendinitis... And should they add two handles for the keyboard then?

I don't know if I'd want to shake the life out of my perhiperals....but that may prove to be quite good for keeping my sanity intact during long hours of studying!

ewinemiller
Aug 21, 2003, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by elmimmo
Besides, what is wrong with all those VERY GOOD third party 2 button + clickable scroll wheel ou there? Is it that they are not fashionable enough or what?

The problem with those good third party mice is that they are terribly inconvenient and libel to start a fight when you are sitting on an airplane with your laptop in front of you and nothing but the pant leg of the person sitting next to you to use as a mousepad. I understand that this is a new product targeted at the desktop, but if Apple finally drags itself out of the mouse dark ages on the desktop, it's probably not long until we see Apple laptops with two mouse buttons. That would just make my day to see new powerbooks with two mouse buttons released with the wireless keyboard and mouse for the desktop.

Mr. Anderson
Aug 21, 2003, 02:03 PM
In order to set up a peizo-electric keyboard, you'd have to have more resistance in the key to capture more energy to power the device.

I imagine when nanotech becomes more widespread you'd get something like self powered keyboards and mice. And you'd also need to have low power wireless communication.

D

esheep2001
Aug 21, 2003, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by elmimmo
Definitely the most innovative and useful method for battery life concerns would be to implement this (http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/lights/5a9f/). Very good for preventing carpal tunnel syndrome, maybe not so much for tendinitis... And should they add two handles for the keyboard then?

LOL!

Great for a glove box torch but I can just see a dilbert cartoon of this if it were implemented in mice and especially keyboards :-)

Thanks for a big smile!

e.

elmimmo
Aug 21, 2003, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by whawho
Apple's big thing has always been innovation. A one button mouse now-a-days is not very innovative. IMO By the very same reasoning it was not very innovative 10 years ago. Windows used it all over the place, still Apple preferred to simplify instead of causing possible confussion. You still had (have) ctrl+click to access those. Has word processing, image editing, 3d modelling or even navigating the OS UI changed so much in all those years. I do not think so, they still use the same base and the same context menues that they used by that time. What has changed so much according to you.

Maybe it is just that you have discovered context menues since that time? They were there even if you did not know about them. Apple did now about them to, and still thought ctrl+click was better.

reyesmac
Aug 21, 2003, 02:09 PM
I wonder out of the 100,000 powermacs Apple will ship this quarter how many of them will come with the new keyboard? Why isn't this included in the already high $2000 starting price for the new G5's? All those people already have to pay to upgrade to Panther. Is this keyboard not a pro keyboard or Apples new standard for connectivity? Or is it just some new device to enhance your Mac experience and fatten Apples pockets?

They already charge like $60 for keyboards with less features than $20 ones, how much will they charge for this thing?

Tom800
Aug 21, 2003, 02:11 PM
have i missed something here? What is the point of having a wireless keyboard or mouse??


then the downsides - powering hassles, expensive, maybe in fact MORE confusing for the beginner... etc.

somebody please enlighten me.

ZildjianKX
Aug 21, 2003, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by esheep2001
Two! I've been hooked on 3 buttons, scroll + back and forward for longer than I care to remember. The first thing I did when I switched (yes, I'm a 1st gen flat panel iMac switcher now awaiting my dual 2G G5) was try my MS explorer. The apple mouse simply sucks, big time. It was a nice philosophy when 'WIMP's first appeared on the scene but given the guys from Logitech are from the originators of the WIMP concept and themselves advocate these multi-button mice it's time apple followed suit.

Take a look here:
http://sloan.stanford.edu/mousesite/1968Demo.html
for some interesting history.

Note that Doug Engelbart is now director of his company, Bootstrap Institute and Bootstrap is housed rent free courtesy of the Logitech :-)

Two buttons? Nah, bring on the five button + scroll monster at least!

e.

How did you get the forward and back buttons to work with your MS Explorer mouse in OS X? I installed the MS Drivers even and I can't get it to work... :confused:

ewinemiller
Aug 21, 2003, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Tom800
have i missed something here? What is the point of having a wireless keyboard or mouse??


then the downsides - powering hassles, expensive, maybe in fact MORE confusing for the beginner... etc.

somebody please enlighten me.

You don't have to worry about the cat chewing on the cord and it provides more freedom of movement because the cords not in the way or dragging on the mouse. On the other hand, it's something small and light that the toddler can pick up and wander off with. ;)

Powerbook G5
Aug 21, 2003, 02:20 PM
I wouldn't care about the keyboard since I have a PowerBook, but a wireless optical mouse would be awesome to have since it'd be so convenient to just pull it out of your laptop case/pocket/off your desk to take with you whenever and not deal with wires or searching for the USB port at night when your roommates are asleep--just pick it up and go. If that isn't damn cool, I don't know what is. As far as with a desktop unit, I can understand the "why wireless" approach since if you are just sitting at the desk, having it plugged in or not makes little difference.

esheep2001
Aug 21, 2003, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by Tom800
have i missed something here? What is the point of having a wireless keyboard or mouse??


then the downsides - powering hassles, expensive, maybe in fact MORE confusing for the beginner... etc.

somebody please enlighten me.

Well, have you never had hassles with the cables? Can you not think of a better way to use that valuable desk space?

Also, if you're a musician, being able to walk over to a keyboard (musical) and press start when you're ready makes life a lot easier than pressing start and running over to try and get there is time to play.

When I'm reading a document or web page, I no longer have to have my elbow tethered to the table I can kick back and relax.

For home use, connecting an imac or similar to a TV and still being able to use it without having to sit next to it or have wires trailing all over the room is handy too.

Less hassle if you're using a laptop on site too. No messy wires to try and plug in.

I was sceptical to start with too I have to admit. But since I got my MX700 it's been a breath of fresh air.

e.

soggywulf
Aug 21, 2003, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by MightyB
that was SO 1991! :D

It was sponsored by the guy from Apple Computers.

<What> computers?

:D

soggywulf
Aug 21, 2003, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by ewinemiller
I understand that this is a new product targeted at the desktop, but if Apple finally drags itself out of the mouse dark ages on the desktop, it's probably not long until we see Apple laptops with two mouse buttons.

Absolutely. You can use 3rd party mice on a desk, but you can't replace the trackpad on the road. Using 1 button on a laptop sucks. At least they should have a BTO option for the laptops, between 1 or 2 buttons. And who knows...what with all the "2-button" comments from Jobs, maybe he'll finally relent and put two buttons in the laptops as well.

srobert
Aug 21, 2003, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by Tom800
have i missed something here? What is the point of having a wireless keyboard or mouse??

My desk is a spaghetti desk. Wires running all over the place. The less wires the better for me.

Now if only Tesla would have completed his research on how to transmit electricity wirelessly. That would have been awesome. A full bluetooth and TeslaPowered computer and periphicals would be delightfull. ;-p

Powerbook G5
Aug 21, 2003, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by soggywulf
It was sponsored by the guy from Apple Computers.

<What> computers?

:D

Yay for Simpsons!

soggywulf
Aug 21, 2003, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by elmimmo
Maybe it is just that you have discovered context menues since that time? They were there even if you did not know about them. Apple did now about them to, and still thought ctrl+click was better.

Personally I think it is far more convenient to right click than to hunt for a control key each time I want to pull up a menu. This is something the darkside did right, imo.

nagromme
Aug 21, 2003, 02:39 PM
This MacNN thread (scroll to the bottom) has some images found within Panther. The poster says one is a Bluetooth mouse icon--and it looks just like our current 1-button mouse:

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1544967#post1544967

http://www.webscreamer.com/personal/panther_7b39/btmouse.png

Does anyone know if Panther uses that icon when attaching a USB mouse? If so, the image is likely generic, used for any USB or BT mouse. If not--I think it's got to be what the new Bluetooth mouse will be.

Presumably then, the new keyboard will also look identical to the eMac one, just wireless.

I hope at LEAST they offer silver versions for pro users! But having only one button again would be a real shame.

srobert
Aug 21, 2003, 02:41 PM
About that mouse icon we keep saying in this thread. Anybody else noticed that it is off center?

Could the space under the mouse be used to display signal strenght? (if there is such a thing with bluetooth.

Just a tought.

nagromme
Aug 21, 2003, 02:46 PM
Oops. Sorry for the extra post. This thread grew fast! Anyway, yes--that icon is above center just like the volume icon is, so I bet you're right--some kind of bar gauge could well go below it. Signal strength maybe, or battery charge. Handy to see the charge every time you connect.

whawho
Aug 21, 2003, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by elmimmo
By the very same reasoning it was not very innovative 10 years ago. Windows used it all over the place, still Apple preferred to simplify instead of causing possible confussion. You still had (have) ctrl+click to access those. Has word processing, image editing, 3d modelling or even navigating the OS UI changed so much in all those years. I do not think so, they still use the same base and the same context menues that they used by that time. What has changed so much according to you.

Maybe it is just that you have discovered context menues since that time? They were there even if you did not know about them. Apple did now about them to, and still thought ctrl+click was better.

Hmmm... I started on windows... and right clicking and contextual windows are old hat and for that matter so are two button mice with scroll wheels. I've used them for years. When I switched to Mac in 2001 I thought was weird that Apple didn't have two button mouse with a scroll wheel. It's less productive to not have a scroll wheel and a second button. At least it is for me....scrolling down long .php, html documents in BBedit would get annoying if I didn't have a scroll wheel.

It's not that I don't know about other 3rd party mice that I can buy... it's just you should have an option to at least get one with your system that you buy...even if Apple doesn't make it...

elmimmo
Aug 21, 2003, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by soggywulf
Personally I think it is far more convenient to right click

Oh gosh... For the second time, my post was not about conveniency! But about what are Apple's argument about introducing something they openly considered less apt for desktop computers not so long ago!

I understand why some of you might prefer 2 button mice. What I am saying is that nothing has changed so notably as to let Apple abandon its argument about the inadequacy of 2-button mice without appearing as straight down idiots.

PS: And I explicitely stated I was only discussing about the number of buttons, since scroll wheels have not been around for so much time.

rainman::|:|
Aug 21, 2003, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by elmimmo
Oh gosh... For the second time, my post was not about conveniency! But about what are Apple's argument about introducing something they openly considered less apt for desktop computers not so long ago!

I understand why some of you might prefer 2 button mice. What I am saying is that nothing has changed so notably as to let Apple abandon its argument about the inadequacy of 2-button mice without appearing as straight down idiots.

PS: And I explicitely stated I was only discussing about the number of buttons, since scroll wheels have not been around for so much time.

well, the OS itself has never been more integrated with right-clicking mice... OS 9 supported it, as did previous OS X, but now it's getting really heavy duty.

i know where you're coming from, i can't stand the idea of Apple releasing a two button mouse either... After all, it's one of their trademarks! love it or hate it, a one-button approach is part of what sets Apple apart.

However, probably 90% of Mac users, and 100% of switchers that Apple is targeting, are comfortable using a two button mouse. I think things are shifting very quickly to Apple adopting it, rape of principal or no.

pnw

soggywulf
Aug 21, 2003, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by elmimmo
What I am saying is that nothing has changed so notably as to let Apple abandon its argument about the inadequacy of 2-button mice without appearing as straight down idiots.

True.

Originally posted by paulwhannel
i know where you're coming from, i can't stand the idea of Apple releasing a two button mouse either... After all, it's one of their trademarks! love it or hate it, a one-button approach is part of what sets Apple apart.

Thinking different just for difference's sake is IMO not a good thing.

mactastic
Aug 21, 2003, 03:18 PM
I would much rather not have to plug the USB cable into my laptop when I use it at my desk. I don't really care if there is a power cord coming off the mouse or keyboard (well maybe the mouse, i like my logitech wireless one) as long as I don't have to constantly be pluggin and unplugging stuff from my computer. Heck that's most of the reason I bought an Airport, just so I didn't have to worry about plugging something in and out all the time that gives me a higher risk of breaking something that's directly connected to my mobo.

I can see why desktop users would not be as excited but this is the year of the laptop...

elmimmo
Aug 21, 2003, 03:19 PM
Following on my last post, the only exit door I find Apple has unless they do not mind whatever people might think of their decisions in mice design in the past, is give the choice of either a 1 button or a 2 button mouse. That does not make it valid to stick with current 1 button mouse design and introduce a new wireless 2-button mouse, since they are obviously considering the 2 button one is the most preferable if we do not consider price. Whenever Apple introduces a 2 button mice, it must introduce a new 1 button mouse of the same generation unless the previous one has the exact technical characteristics besides the number of buttons.

And honestly, I do not see Apple doing that.

contempt
Aug 21, 2003, 03:19 PM
My previous experiences with wireless mice have been they're a bit difficult to control for fine pixel tuning in photoshop. There always seems to be a lag and it's difficult to move things as you'd like. I really hope Apple fixed this since most designers are dependent on these.

Also, the preference panel didn't show any configuration options. I really like my MS Explorer, one because it's a five button mouse, and two because I can have different configurations for each application. Apple definitely needs to allow for that.

sparks9
Aug 21, 2003, 03:20 PM
AA batts = NOT KEWL

whawho
Aug 21, 2003, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by elmimmo
I understand why some of you might prefer 2 button mice. What I am saying is that nothing has changed so notably as to let Apple abandon its argument about the inadequacy of 2-button mice without appearing as straight down idiots.



I don't know, rather than giving a lot of users what they need rather than admitting you were wrong seems kinda lame. Being stubborn and continuing with a 1-button mouse makes them seem like idiots as well.

soggywulf
Aug 21, 2003, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by whawho
I don't know, rather than giving a lot of users what they need rather than admitting you were wrong seems kinda lame. Being stubborn and continuing with a 1-button mouse makes them seem like idiots as well.

Well said.

picklescott
Aug 21, 2003, 03:31 PM
What about the usb ports on the side (and now back) of the keyboards that have been with apple forever!? There is no way that enough power could be supplied to the ports (over bluetooth), right? That would be a big pain, since my iMac only has 3 USB ports... maybe with the new computers they will include more usb ports??? hopefully...

srobert
Aug 21, 2003, 03:32 PM
"The wise man could always use, only one button, on a two button mouse if he wishes so. But he can wish all he want, he'll never be able to use two buttons on a one button mouse."

elmimmo
Aug 21, 2003, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by paulwhannel
i know where you're coming from, i can't stand the idea of Apple releasing a two button mouse either... After all, it's one of their trademarks!

My personal preference has nothing to do with sentimentalism. I have always been exclusively a Windows user and still am, except that at work I use Mac OS X, and am pretty much the guy solving other collegue's problems (disknowledge) with Mac OS 9 and X (even when most of them have always been -lazy- Mac users).

I am confortable with 2 mouse and as I said I do think I take even more profit from it than the average Joe (just how many people do you know customizing Window's Explorer contextual menues for certain file types? -I know none). But over the years I have also get used to 1 button mice in Macs because the UI and apps have been designed (mostly until some quirks recently) to be able to do everything with 1 button while letting owners of 2 button mouse take advantage of it (like "open in new tab" when clicking with the scroll wheel in Safari). Windows would be unusable to me with just 1 button.

Having been a Windows user for about 12 years, one of the reasons (and I said one, not The reason) I'd like to have a Mac is because I am pretty sure my mother would enjoy using computers a lot more if she did not walked continually into walls of frustration when using the 2-button mouse I have in my desktop Windows PC.

PS: That is not to say that some of the things in certain pro apps simply cannot be done with 1 button. If anyone has used Rhinoceros NURBS modeler for Windows, s/he'll know nothing can beat its keyboard-free pan/zoom/rotate controls with the mouse. Maya also requires a 2 button mouse, doesn't it.

AppleMatt
Aug 21, 2003, 03:39 PM
argh I can't believe this has gone into the age old one button/two button debate again. Shouldn't we just have a thread dedicated to that?!

Anyhoo, for the poster who asked if that mouse image was applicable to USB mice aswell, if I remember correctly when I submitted the preliminary images ages ago, they were called along the lines of "KDBconnected" and "KBDdisconnected", same for mouse (note the picture posted above is a different file, the keyboard and mouse images still exist with the text on them), so quite possibly yes, as the Airport pictures are called "AirportOutOfRange" and "AirportInRange".

Who knows, we'll have to wait until a later build or GM. Or I'll have to read up this thread and see it's probably already been answered.

AppleMatt

elmimmo
Aug 21, 2003, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by whawho
Being stubborn and continuing with a 1-button mouse makes them seem like idiots as well.

Exactly the same argument that hundreds of PC users used against Apple 10 years ago. Still, since most Apple users but that time were also quite stubborn as not to see how that MacOS-rippoff, a.k.a Windows included, so many enhancements to the UI it had ripped off, no one really cared about it. Maybe that is what have changed in 10 years...

esheep2001
Aug 21, 2003, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by sparks9
AA batts = NOT KEWL

But throwing away a perfectly good piece of kit because the non standard built in battery is completely shot is?

AA NiMH rechargeables combine the best of both worlds IMHO, especially if, like the MX700, you can recharge them wthout having to remove them.

e.

esheep2001
Aug 21, 2003, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by contempt
My previous experiences with wireless mice have been they're a bit difficult to control ...

Also, the preference panel didn't show any configuration options. I really like my MS Explorer, one because it's a five button mouse, and two because I can have different configurations for each application. Apple definitely needs to allow for that.

I have to agree about the MS Explorer. Config wise it's one of the best mice I've used. However, if you want to go wireless then I can recommed the Logitech MX700, I've not noticed any lag or control problems. Not as configurable but plenty of buttons.

e.

simX
Aug 21, 2003, 03:49 PM
This "Apple really needs to get with the game and release a two-button mouse" is getting really old.

Yes, Apple would be admitting it was "wrong" all those years if it went ahead and released a two-button mouse. But, see, the thing is, it wasn't wrong and it still isn't. Apple should not release a two-button mouse as standard equipment on new Macs.

Study after study has shown that, despite what everyone else has said in this thread, new computer users are confused by more than one button. They start clicking the wrong button, and then new menus start popping up and they can't figure out for the life of them what they are doing differently.

*shakes head* No, Apple would be stupid to release a standard two-button mouse across all of its product lines. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

If these bluetooth mice do indeed have more than one button, you can be sure that they will ONLY be build-to-order options at the time of purchase or available separately. They will never become standard, no matter how "1990s" 1-button mice are.

RalphNumbers
Aug 21, 2003, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by esheep2001
Personally I prefer the Logitech cradle. No messing having to find the cable and fiddle with it plugging it in, just drop the mouse in and let it suck up the juice.

As for AA's. That's one of the reasons I went for the MX700! It takes 2 NiMH AA's which are recharged when the mouse is docked. That way when the batteries die after a few years all I need to do is pop out and buy some more or use ordinary AA's.

I'm actually quite bothered by my iPod having an internal battery. What will I do when that stops holding juice? Chuck it away?! Send it off for a replacement which will likely cost more than a new iPod? Only be able to use it when it's plugged in?

Nah! Easily replacable batteries are a much better option IMHO.

e.

Replacable batteries are fine, as long as they're rechargable within the device. I assumed AA=normal non-rechargable Alkaline AA.

Also, unlike my idea, your mouse's scheme with a cradle seems to indicate that you can't use it while it's charging. That might be fine with a 3rd party mouse, where you'll probably have a wired backup mouse to use while it charges, but in a mouse that is shipped with a computer, It would be unacceptable imho.

elmimmo
Aug 21, 2003, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by srobert
"The wise man could always use, only one button, on a two button mouse if he wishes so. But he can wish all he want, he'll never be able to use two buttons on a one button mouse."

Ha, ha, ha!! LOL (BTW, isn't the acronym LOL lame? Using initials for emotions :-? That has always been the realm of smilies) So there I go.

:D :D :D :D :D

Macrumors should have a sections of "Best quotes of all time" and this proverb should go in there.

BTW, gosh... should we just trigger a chat or what. This grows fast...

Originally posted by simX
new computer users are confused by more than one button. They start clicking the wrong button, and then new menus start popping up and they can't figure out for the life of them what they are doing differently.

I'm 100% with you. During all the years I was a MacOS ignorant, and during the first times I started using it, I just could not understand how Apple was, besides that stupid, bold enough to openly defend 1 button only. Until I get used to it and then tried to get my mother used to Window's 2 buttons. Windows is a way more difficult OS to use for newcomers by that very simple fact (among others).

whawho
Aug 21, 2003, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by simX

If these bluetooth mice do indeed have more than one button, you can be sure that they will ONLY be build-to-order options at the time of purchase or available separately.


That's all I'm asking for :)... (even if it isn't an apple branded) I don't care.

It's a bummer that when you buy a brand new computer that you immediatley have to buy a new mouse. I'm not saying to ever ditch the one-buttoned version (a lot of people like them) just give people that know how to use two-buttons the BTO option, not every user is new to computers.

Flowbee
Aug 21, 2003, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by simX
Study after study has shown that, despite what everyone else has said in this thread, new computer users are confused by more than one button. They start clicking the wrong button, and then new menus start popping up and they can't figure out for the life of them what they are doing differently.

However, Apple could include a two button mouse with their pro-level systems without ever admitting that the one-button mouse isn't right for most computer users. Professional applications rely more and more on contextual menus, and Apple would do well to acknowlede this. Software has changed significantly since the one button mouse was first introduced.

It can be reasonable argued that few "new computer users" who have never used a mouse before should be buying a pro-level machine... and the people who *are* spending $3000+ on a new G5 system probably won't be too confused by a 2-button mouse.

MacUser1
Aug 21, 2003, 04:09 PM
didn't apple receive a patent or something to include an "ipod-like" scroll wheel on a mouse? i think it was posted here on macrumors, if i find it i'll post it. do you think they would implement it into this new bluetooth mouse?

esheep2001
Aug 21, 2003, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by RalphNumbers
Also, unlike my idea, your mouse's scheme with a cradle seems to indicate that you can't use it while it's charging.


True

That might be fine with a 3rd party mouse, where you'll probably have a wired backup mouse to use while it charges, but in a mouse that is shipped with a computer, It would be unacceptable imho.

Surely that depends on the battery life?

I think we've become accustomed to short battery life due to the current crop of laptops and PDAs and even some mobile phones.

I used to use a Psion 3a organiser. That used two AAs and kept going for between 4 and 6 weeks without needing them to be changed. A small watch backup battery held it in stasis whilst you changed the batteries for new ones. The older Palms were equally good. These days though, everything seems to eat power for breakfast leaving you in search of a power socket for lunch!

I haven't tried to see how long my MX700 will go without a recharge but I've seen reviews saying between 5 and 10 days. NiMH batteries are notorious for not holding charge well when they're new. They need wearing in! After a few days they tend to be much better. So son't believe all the reviews you read.

The MX has an LED that flashes to say battery is low, again I'm not sure how much warning it gives you (yet) but I'd be suprised if you couldn't get to the end of what you're doing before having to pop it on the cradle. I've had mine three days now, one overnight charge followed by two days solid(ish) use and still no warning light.

I wonder what the battery life of the new apple kit will be? 4 AAs for the KB seems like a lot I have to say. I'd have a bigger problem with a wireless KB that ran out of juice on me than a mouse I have to admit.

Having said all that, I think I have to agree with you that a cordless mouse as a part of a shipped system would be a mistake. You need to have at least something as a backup is only for peace of mind.

e.

mattalici
Aug 21, 2003, 04:29 PM
Apple is going to stick with the one button mouse. If they do go two, I will be mega surprised. Who needs two buttons? Pro users. And they have an unlimited number of 3rd party options.

The one button mouse is brilliant, minimalist and if you take any cues at all from the hardware design or the OS design, it's pretty clear there will always only be one button.

Simplicity and ease of use "for the rest of us", or them, I should say... not us guys who know better.

simX
Aug 21, 2003, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by Flowbee
However, Apple could include a two button mouse with their pro-level systems without ever admitting that the one-button mouse isn't right for most computer users. Professional applications rely more and more on contextual menus, and Apple would do well to acknowlede this. Software has changed significantly since the one button mouse was first introduced.

And that's the fundamental problem. Software should never, EVER rely on contextual menus to do something. There should *ALWAYS* be an alternative way of performing a specific action other than forcing a user to right-click. Apple has always followed this one simple design principle (of course, it's not the only one), which is one of the reasons why their software is easy to use.

I'm not saying contextual menus are bad, but forcing users to use them is bad form, and is a big reason why Windows software is so confusing (even to me, an experienced computer user IIMSSM). Including two-button mice as standard on all Macs would be just one step towards this confusing future, and one step towards a more complicated system.

One-button mice should be offered by default, with two-button mice as extras that you can buy if you really want it. Perhaps a "trade in trade up" program would be in order, where you could trade in your one-button mouse for a discount off a two-button mouse.

elmimmo
Aug 21, 2003, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by elmimmo
Definitely the most innovative and useful method for battery life concerns would be to implement this (http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/lights/5a9f). Very good for preventing carpal tunnel syndrome, maybe not so much for tendinitis... And should they add two handles for the keyboard then?Originally posted by esheep2001
LOL! [...] I can just see a dilbert cartoon of this if it were implemented in mice and especially keyboards :-)I guess you are refering to this Dilbert meets Powerbook (http://www-structure.bio.purdue.edu/~bhebert/Cartoons/cartoons.htm) strip. :D

RalphNumbers
Aug 21, 2003, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by esheep2001
Surely that depends on the battery life?

Not especially. No matter what the battery life, Murphy's law dictates that the end of that life will come while you're doing something important.

If everyone remembered to leave their mouse in thier crade when not in use, and the batteries could be constantly charged, this wouldn't be a problem, but alot of people aren't usually that responsible.

I know my roomate's wireless optical mouse was allways dieing in the middle of a game. after a couple months, he just chucked it in his closet and used his plain old wired optical mouse full time.

Having a mouse that can recharge while in use with just one cord would prevent that kind of problem. It's the kind of obvious yet cool innovation I would want from apple.

mstecker
Aug 21, 2003, 04:43 PM
I'm posting this right now from Omniweb 4 running on my NeXT Cube. My NeXT mouse has 2 buttons.

So, at some point, Steve saw the two-button light. It's only a matter of time before he brings Apple back around on this.

cb911
Aug 21, 2003, 04:45 PM
sounds promising.

wasn't there some confusion a whilel back about the apple pro keyboard going missing from the Apple Store? being replaced with the eMac keyboard or something?

i bet these new keyboards and mice will be designed to go with the new PowerMacs, they should be sweet. :D

SiliconAddict
Aug 21, 2003, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by MoparShaha
If its not a two button mouse with scroll, I'll go insane. C'mon apple, get with the 21st century.

Add me to the list. I _NEED_ a two button mouse. Its worse for laptop users though. At least with a PowerMac you can replace the mouse. Its not like I can rip the buttons out of a PowerBook :(

mstecker
Aug 21, 2003, 05:10 PM
Maybe, just maybe, they're holding the new Powerbooks until the new bluetooth stuff is ready... becuase ... because .... the new Powerbooks have 2 button mice!

agentmouthwash
Aug 21, 2003, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by mstecker
Maybe, just maybe, they're holding the new Powerbooks until the new bluetooth stuff is ready... becuase ... because .... the new Powerbooks have 2 button mice!

ha I was thinking the same thing...


How long do you thing the battery would last on a bluetooth mouse?

raschild
Aug 21, 2003, 05:25 PM
All I can say is bring it (bluetooth keyboard/mouse) on!! Go Apple!!

rjstanford
Aug 21, 2003, 05:39 PM
Apple is going to stick with the one button mouse. If they do go two, I will be mega surprised. Who needs two buttons? Pro users. And they have an unlimited number of 3rd party options.

Aww, come on. I'm a pro user. I use a laptop. I have ZERO options, other than lugging around another piece of crap to plug into a system that's supposed to be self-contained. Or a BT mouse, which I still have to carry around when I really have no use for it whatsoever except for a single additional button. By all means, leave the iBook with one button, but the PowerBook should move to two buttons at the next rev.

The one button mouse is brilliant, minimalist and if you take any cues at all from the hardware design or the OS design, it's pretty clear there will always only be one button. (emphasis added)

'scuse me?

How many times do you see "Use CTRL-click to ..." these days in the OS? Heck, how often did Jobs mention multiple mouse buttons in his recent keynote?

-Richard

tex210
Aug 21, 2003, 05:50 PM
I am one of those users that had pc'd for a while. Once you adjust to the two button scroll wheel, it is hard to go back. If they change to multiple buttons, it is not admitting they were wrong, it is saying, "Go ahead and switch to Apple!" From the hockey puck(which I used regularly until optical took off), I moved to the Kensington optical pro, when it died (because I dropped it a million times getting caught in the mile long cord!), I now use my wacom tablet mouse. Two buttons and a scroll wheel, no batteries! How do they do that? Magnetics? Anyway, the tablet goes on my lap, I can sit back and browse the web.
With that said... If it were not for the one button mouse, my buisiness partner would still be computer illiterate. He has become proficient in everyday use of our office iMac, which has the Apple Pro mouse. When he's on my machine, I've learned not to say,"now right click on...." as he just gets a glazed look in his eyes. He just uses the one button, and is quite content. He never scrolls, which I can't personally understand, but hey, it works for him!
My suggestion? Make the right button a different shape/texture/place...or how about a one button with a scroll wheel? I'll keep my wacom though... I like switching to the pen when I am editing photos or building a web site.
OT : anyone know if Inkwell got beefed up in Panther?

oh, As for laptops... the control key is right there... come on, oh come on...

fixyourthinking
Aug 21, 2003, 05:50 PM
I have the eluminX keyboard and at first I thought it would be a novelty but it turns out that the backlighting (even in a well lit room) is much easier to use and to top it off you don't have to have a bright light glaring on you at night.


I wish Apple would make a wired keyboard that backlit.

job
Aug 21, 2003, 06:17 PM
I don't think we will see a light-up keyboard that is wireless. Too many problems.

However, I would like to see a wired lightup key board.

So, who would choose what? A lightup wired keyboard, or a wireless, normal keyboard?

soggywulf
Aug 21, 2003, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by simX
And that's the fundamental problem. Software should never, EVER rely on contextual menus to do something. There should *ALWAYS* be an alternative way of performing a specific action other than forcing a user to right-click. Apple has always followed this one simple design principle (of course, it's not the only one), which is one of the reasons why their software is easy to use.

I have to strongly disagree here. This may have been a good principle to rigidly adhere to in 1984, but things have moved quite far since MacPaint. Tell me how to do "Open link in new window" and "Copy link to clipboard" without a mouse-activated contextual menu.

Originally posted by simX
One-button mice should be offered by default, with two-button mice as extras that you can buy if you really want it. Perhaps a "trade in trade up" program would be in order, where you could trade in your one-button mouse for a discount off a two-button mouse.

I can see the point that you (and others) are making relative to new users. So I agree that 2 buttons should be a BTO option, if at all. But as has been mentioned before, there are plenty of third-party solutions, and the OS support for them is quite good. So a BTO option for desktops is not really necessary. In fact, it may even be worse than the status quo--because 3rd-party mice might be driven out of the market by freely-included BTO 2-button mice, and 3rd-party mouse options are currently better than Apple's offerings IMO (aside from the number of buttons, even).

My main concern is with LAPTOPS! You can't get a third-party trackpad! This is the place where Apple really needs to get on the ball and provide a 2-button BTO option.

appleguru1
Aug 21, 2003, 06:51 PM
uAlong with the mose file attached earlier, there is a keyboard profile. The mouse image is named "btMouse.png", the keyboard, "btKeyboard.png". So, these images are definitly for BT mice. I don't see any indication of signal strength, but I could be wrong. These images have not been used or existed previously.

The profiles suggest that they wont change much from the current design...

Keyboard image attached...

appleguru1
Aug 21, 2003, 06:57 PM
There is also an image for the G5 door being ajar (Prolly the same one for G4s...)... cool:

SiliconAddict
Aug 21, 2003, 08:12 PM
This topic has probably been talked into the ground but I have to ask what about this possibility?

Apple has 2 lines of products right? The Pro line and the (what would the imacs and iBooks be?) home consumer line of products.

The pro line of products always have the uber hardware do they not? Top of the line stuff. Why not ship the Power Macs and the PowerBooks with 2 button mice and leave the i line with one WITH the option of upgrading, except in the case of the iBook of course.


IMHO of course: At this point the one button mouse makes as much sense as needing to hold down the Apple cloverleaf thingy to use the enter key. I subscribe to the idea that mouse functionality, check that, all mouse functionality stays on, no points for guessing, the mouse. The first time I walked into an Apple store and started playing around with a PowerBook it took me a good 2-3 minutes to guess what key mods the mouse. Iím willing to bet there are A LOT of Mac users that donít even know about contextual menus. A one button mouse isnít easier then a 2 button one. Its different thatís all. Migrating users from 1 to 2 button mice would be as simple as a 30 second tutorial on startup of that brand new Mac. I personally think Apple dropped the ball when they moved to OSX. They had a brand new OS with a brand new GUI. That was the time to introduce a 2 button mouse. *shrugs* Just my .02 on the subject.

As for BT mouse and keyboard. Anyone want to spec on what the batt life on something like this would be? A week? 2 weeks? A month? :confused:

scem0
Aug 21, 2003, 08:27 PM
Originally posted by NavyIntel007
Knowing Apple, this is going to be expensive. I'll stick with my keyboard and mouse thanks.

and it will probably be worse than the cheaper things anyways.

I don't care what anyone says, Microsoft makes a damn good mouse, at an affordable price. Apple makes a mediocre mouse at a expensive price.

If apple can get the cost down I'd get one in a second.

scem0

Kid Red
Aug 21, 2003, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by capacity
Found this image in this MacNN Forums thread (http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1544967#post1545564). The guy found it while snooping around in Panther's files. It's one of those silhouette images that show up like when you change the volume or eject from the keyboard. Hate to burst your bubbles, but think it means the wireless mouse will look similar to the current one?

I don't know why anyone here would expect anything really different from the current mouse. i don't see the excitement of a bluetooth version of the current mouse. I'll be sticking with my MX 300.

mstecker
Aug 21, 2003, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by Kid Red
I don't see the excitement of a bluetooth version of the current mouse. I'll be sticking with my MX 300.

You're missing the point! The release of this product is another reason for me to make a trip to the Apple Store and part with more of my hard earned money! Does it get better than that? :)

simX
Aug 21, 2003, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by soggywulf
I have to strongly disagree here. This may have been a good principle to rigidly adhere to in 1984, but things have moved quite far since MacPaint. Tell me how to do "Open link in new window" and "Copy link to clipboard" without a mouse-activated contextual menu.

If you have tabs enabled: Command-Option-Shift-Click or Command-Option-Click on a link, depending on whether you've set "Select new tabs as they are created" in Safari preferences.

If you have tabs disabled: Command-Click on a link.

As for copying a link to the clipboard, there are many ways to do this. You can drag a link to the location bar, and then select all and copy. You can click on a link, click in the address bar, and then select all and copy. You can also simply view the source of the HTML page and then copy the URL directly from the source of the link.

The point is not that contextual menus are not convenient. On the contrary, they *ARE* convenient. But you should never rely SOLELY on contextual menus to do certain actions. In Windows, oftentimes, you cannot get around using contextual menus at all -- you are forced to use them. That's all I'm saying: you should always provide an alternative, even if it's a bit more inconvenient.


I can see the point that you (and others) are making relative to new users. So I agree that 2 buttons should be a BTO option, if at all. But as has been mentioned before, there are plenty of third-party solutions, and the OS support for them is quite good. So a BTO option for desktops is not really necessary. In fact, it may even be worse than the status quo--because 3rd-party mice might be driven out of the market by freely-included BTO 2-button mice, and 3rd-party mouse options are currently better than Apple's offerings IMO (aside from the number of buttons, even).

My main concern is with LAPTOPS! You can't get a third-party trackpad! This is the place where Apple really needs to get on the ball and provide a 2-button BTO option.

A potential solution would be for Apple to provide a two button trackpad on their laptops, but by default make them both do a single click (with the option of changing one to control-click, obviously). But I'm still inclined to say that many users would probably be confused by this, and this should definitely not go in the iBook.

mstecker
Aug 21, 2003, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by simX
If you have tabs enabled: Command-Option-Shift-Click or Command-Option-Click on a link, depending on whether you've set "Select new tabs as they are created" in Safari preferences.

If you have tabs disabled: Command-Click on a link.

As for copying a link to the clipboard, there are many ways to do this. You can drag a link to the location bar, and then select all and copy. You can click on a link, click in the address bar, and then select all and copy. You can also simply view the source of the HTML page and then copy the URL directly from the source of the link.

The point is not that contextual menus are not convenient. On the contrary, they *ARE* convenient. But you should never rely SOLELY on contextual menus to do certain actions. In Windows, oftentimes, you cannot get around using contextual menus at all -- you are forced to use them. That's all I'm saying: you should always provide an alternative, even if it's a bit more inconvenient.




A potential solution would be for Apple to provide a two button trackpad on their laptops, but by default make them both do a single click (with the option of changing one to control-click, obviously). But I'm still inclined to say that many users would probably be confused by this, and this should definitely not go in the iBook.


How about this for the ultimate solution to this problem? I propose that the new laptops (both pro and consumer) should have a single button like they do today, but with a slight line etched down the middle (just enough to feel it). By default, it behaves just like a one button trackpad, but - only if you enable it in software, the mechanism is set up to tell which side of the pad you've clicked.

Even slicker would be if the user could define where the cutoff between the left button and right button is in software.

Gymnut
Aug 21, 2003, 11:51 PM
Guess my M$ wireless keyboard is going out the window. The Intellimouse too if Apple's mouse proves to one up it.

simX
Aug 22, 2003, 02:13 AM
Originally posted by mstecker
How about this for the ultimate solution to this problem? I propose that the new laptops (both pro and consumer) should have a single button like they do today, but with a slight line etched down the middle (just enough to feel it). By default, it behaves just like a one button trackpad, but - only if you enable it in software, the mechanism is set up to tell which side of the pad you've clicked.

Even slicker would be if the user could define where the cutoff between the left button and right button is in software.

I was thinking of a solution along those lines, too.. although I wonder how troublesome it would be to implement something like that. I suppose if anyone could do it, it would be Apple.

trianglejuice
Aug 22, 2003, 02:43 AM
Originally posted by MoparShaha
If its not a two button mouse with scroll, I'll go insane. C'mon apple, get with the 21st century.

Why all the negative reactions about Apple's one button mouse? Never heard of the Ctrl button?
If you don't like it the Mac way, get a freakin' PC (and we'll see about your complaints then)...

TriangleJuice.

backspinner
Aug 22, 2003, 03:05 AM
Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Migrating users from 1 to 2 button mice would be as simple as a 30 second tutorial on startup of that brand new Mac. I guess that you have parents that are not older than 30 or 40 years...

...mine are 60++ and my dad always tell me that since he switched from a PC to an eMac the mousing is soo much easier! They always confused the left and right buttons.

newnomad
Aug 22, 2003, 03:21 AM
If apple goes with the 2 button mouse, and currently that would make sense, it has to be backward compatible ergonomically. This means users of one button mouses must be able to use thisone without being confused. So their normal 'clikking' bahaviour must still trigger the left mouse button effect. Also apple is most likely to come up with a (ergonomically) 'clever' solution. And the pro mouse as it is now , without any visible button is a perfect functional design, being very simple and not confusing even most inviting to first time users. So the only logic solution for me is to have a forward/backward tilting mechanism; Just try to rotate your pro mouse 180 degrees and you know what I mean; Klick with fingers = leftmousebuttonfunction, klick with wrist is = rightmousebuttonfunction. The 'ears' for holding a click (which I dont like cause of all the dirt that gets into the mouse through there) only apply to the leftmouseklickfunction. So the design visualy can stay unaltered. Why change a winner? As for scroll functionality; when you need this, you are most likely to be a pro (video,...) and you should get a 3th party mouse with lots of other functionalities.(contourdesign.com,...)
For the laptops this kind of toggle can also be applied easily, and there are software solutions for it already(touchpad). It even might be a good timing for updating all the laptops across the line together with Panther and dual function micebuttons....Then again you might prefer to use your wireless applepromouse with your laptop if you needed 'rightclicks'

CmdrLaForge
Aug 22, 2003, 05:17 AM
Originally posted by Gus
Sounds like this could be the mystery product that PowerPage was talking about.


I tought new products are
- LCD
- PB
- iMac
- bluetooth mouse and kb
- panther

adamfilip
Aug 22, 2003, 07:25 AM
i think they will release a two (or more button) mouse

but the second button will be small and off to the side to give the appearance of still a one button mouse

soggywulf
Aug 22, 2003, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by trianglejuice
Why all the negative reactions about Apple's one button mouse? Never heard of the Ctrl button?

The Apple way is supposed to be intuitive and easy. Which do you think is more intuitive, control-clicking or right-clicking? Which do you think is easier?

Niknar
Aug 22, 2003, 08:05 AM
I was just thinking. Would the guy actual designing the Bluetooth mouse and keyboard images for panther (image below) actual know what the new keyboard would look like? or was he just taking the reference from the currant mouse/keyboard.

AppleMatt
Aug 22, 2003, 08:13 AM
Well if the mouse and keyboard are the same as the silver ones used in the Apple G5 promo video, then it looks pretty similar to the Pro mouse.

edit:
http://www.spymac.com/forums/attachment.php?postid=552196
OK so maybe not. But the keyboard in the video was very different.

AppleMatt

Niknar
Aug 22, 2003, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by AppleMatt
Well if the mouse and keyboard are the same as the silver ones used in the Apple G5 promo video, then it looks pretty similar to the Pro mouse.

What are you talking about? There just the same as the emacs, exactly the same that shipped with the G5's.

There not silver in any way.

AppleMatt
Aug 22, 2003, 08:26 AM
Originally posted by Niknar
What are you talking about? There just the same as the emacs, exactly the same that shipped with the G5's.

There not silver in any way.

Look at the picture I linked to in my post.
Then bash me.

AppleMatt

Niknar
Aug 22, 2003, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by AppleMatt
Look at the picture I linked to in my post.
Then bash me.

Looks white to me not silver.

AppleMatt
Aug 22, 2003, 08:42 AM
Oooooooooooook. Well I'm happy to let others make up their minds on that one.

Anyhoo, try to be less confrontational in your posts ("What are you talking about?"), we're all one big community here.

AppleMatt

Ebawho
Aug 22, 2003, 09:24 AM
I have a little idea, (its my first post dont yell at me) What if on laptops, is there a way to make it when you tap the touch pad it acts as a right click, and then use the regular button as a left click, or the other way around, is that possible?, also personally id get a bt mouse like this http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/70202/wo/5a5VruMxUTd72QWaL7nDJhmE1LM/6.3.0.5.10 its nice, its optical, it has a touch pad type scroller, and TWO BUTTONS!, and what do you know, you can dock it, and best of all, its WIRLESS its the Kensington StudioMouse Wireless btw.. it wont link directly to it

trianglejuice
Aug 22, 2003, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by soggywulf
The Apple way is supposed to be intuitive and easy. Which do you think is more intuitive, control-clicking or right-clicking? Which do you think is easier?

My left hand is available; I don't know about yours... ;)
I always did it this way, so why changing it...

TJ

soggywulf
Aug 22, 2003, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by trianglejuice
My left hand is available; I don't know about yours... ;)

Availability's not the question. Ease of use and intuitiveness is. Again I ask...

Originally posted by trianglejuice
I always did it this way, so why changing it...

Because it's lame...

trianglejuice
Aug 22, 2003, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by soggywulf
Availability's not the question. Ease of use and intuitiveness is. Again I ask...



Because it's lame...


Why d' you think they invented Exposť? Because we 're all too lame to switch our windows manually.

I just say:
If you want a two button mouse, buy a third-party-one.
If you want a one button mouse, buy one from Apple (I just don't believe that they will create a two button "M$" mouse).

TJ.

soggywulf
Aug 22, 2003, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by trianglejuice
I just say:
If you want a two button mouse, buy a third-party-one.
If you want a one button mouse, buy one from Apple

One more time: laptop trackpad.

rendezvouscp
Aug 22, 2003, 12:36 PM
The setup preferance panel is to recognize and set up the mouse and keyboard, but if this was your first computer, you would have no way of hooking up the mouse and keyboard until you had a functional USB mouse and keyboard (because they are wireless and not usable until they are recognized). This would cause major problems for new customers. So, I believe Apple would want to have both the mouse and keyboard to be wired for the first time and while charging, then you can remove the cable for wireless. Making chips for BlueTooth isn't very expensive I believe, so mabey it would be the same mouse and keyboard (or revised for buttons and such), only with the chips and that would cost users another (hopefully) 15-25 dollars. Apple could cover their costs, make money, and offer this type of enhancement for a price that would work for consumers. A wireless, wired capable mouse and keyboard for under $80 US (hopefully more buttons would be an option too, so you could still have a one button mouse if you wanted, but multi-button mouse if you wanted that instead), I think that would work.
-Chase

Lepton
Aug 22, 2003, 02:11 PM
Apple's case against the multi-button mouse has a main point that the user can be confused by which button to push. So, it has a mouse where the whole thing is the (one) button.

The way Apple can solve the problem is by making it physically clear which is the main button - keep the whole-mouse-push for the main button, but add something unique for scrolling and additional functionality.

We know Apple has a tilt-disc design in the cupboard. And we know that the iPod has been acclaimed for its physical interface. I can see using these things. Put an iPod-like arrangement on the top surface of the current mouse, a center disc with four buttons surrounding. you can scroll with the center disk, perhaps push it for the scroll-wheel button, and the extra buttons are for, well, extra functionality.

I've been hooked on the MS Trackball Explorer, a five-button arrangement with scroll wheel, and those extra buttons really do add productivity.

In any case, after years and years of thinking about it, Apple is certainly not going to do something to catch up. It's going to do something to leapfrog.

savar
Aug 22, 2003, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by rendezvouscp
The setup preferance panel is to recognize and set up the mouse and keyboard, but if this was your first computer, you would have no way of hooking up the mouse and keyboard until you had a functional USB mouse and keyboard (because they are wireless and

Are you sure about this? It seems to me that since Bluetooth uses auto-discovery, its probably the case that a new wireless mouse works just like a new wired mouse. The Mac just creates a new profile with the default settings and driver.

I don't think Apple would force users to plug-in their wireless mice and keyboards.

MM2270
Aug 22, 2003, 06:35 PM
If Apple does what I really, REALLY hope they do, and comes out with a mouse with more than one button and scroll functions, then maybe it will be something similar to THIS (http://www.kensington.com/html/1510.html#)

This is a pretty cool mouse if you ask me. It's stylish looking, is wireless with a docking station and RECHARGABLE batteries, not stupid AA's that have to be replaced periodically, and uses a touch sensor scrollwheel, unlike most scrollwheel mice out there.

That's just my thought and my 2Ę on the subject. Well, whatever Apple does, I really hope it's good, and not just a dumb wireless version of the existing mouse. :rolleyes:

rendezvouscp
Aug 22, 2003, 08:15 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the device have to be first recognized at some point and then it can be automatically connected? The day Apple wires our wireless devices is going to make all of us wonder what Apple is on, but to use it for charging and that first time use, I don't see that being such a problem.

Ebawho
Aug 22, 2003, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by MM2270
If Apple does what I really, REALLY hope they do, and comes out with a mouse with more than one button and scroll functions, then maybe it will be something similar to THIS (http://www.kensington.com/html/1510.html#)

This is a pretty cool mouse if you ask me. It's stylish looking, is wireless with a docking station and RECHARGABLE batteries, not stupid AA's that have to be replaced periodically, and uses a touch sensor scrollwheel, unlike most scrollwheel mice out there.

That's just my thought and my 2Ę on the subject. Well, whatever Apple does, I really hope it's good, and not just a dumb wireless version of the existing mouse. :rolleyes:

!!!!!, thats the mouse i mentioned on the previous page, i think it looks awesome, and i like the touch pad type scrool wheel

benixau
Aug 22, 2003, 10:43 PM
BT = OK
Why?
If you live in apartments - the guy next door is probably within 10 meters of you or your computer.
.......
DIE EVIL BASTARD DIE
*tap space bar rapidly*
*SHOCK*
*computer has done - 'on its own' a CMD-OPT-ESC and wuit your game wile its at it*
.......

wouldn't want to be the neighbour - or the guy playing the game

bennetsaysargh
Aug 22, 2003, 11:03 PM
i know it's confirmed, but here is further stuff.

Phil Of Mac
Aug 23, 2003, 05:02 AM
Originally posted by proglife
An aluminum mouse with perforated skin would be excellent. A little fan in it would be awesome as well to keep the working hand cool (power consumption....I know...I know.....).

Nah, too noisy.

Originally posted by esheep2001
I'm actually quite bothered by my iPod having an internal battery. What will I do when that stops holding juice? Chuck it away?! Send it off for a replacement which will likely cost more than a new iPod? Only be able to use it when it's plugged in?

That'd be a couple of years from now. Upgrade! :)

Originally posted by Tom800
have i missed something here? What is the point of having a wireless keyboard or mouse??

You can throw them.

Originally posted by srobert
Now if only Tesla would have completed his research on how to transmit electricity wirelessly. That would have been awesome. A full bluetooth and TeslaPowered computer and periphicals would be delightfull. ;-p

http://www.crazyapplerumors.com/2002_11_24_archive.htm

Originally posted by mstecker
I'm posting this right now from Omniweb 4 running on my NeXT Cube. My NeXT mouse has 2 buttons.

So, at some point, Steve saw the two-button light. It's only a matter of time before he brings Apple back around on this.

NeXTs were high-end computers, not consumer PC's. Still possible though

Originally posted by soggywulf
The Apple way is supposed to be intuitive and easy. Which do you think is more intuitive, control-clicking or right-clicking? Which do you think is easier?

I have a two-button mouse, but in defense of control-clicking, it keeps one hand on the keyboard, which makes you more productive for the same reason that keyboard shortcuts do--the time it takes to transition from keyboard to mouse and back. If you keep one hand on the keyboard, there's no transition time.

Cooknn
Aug 23, 2003, 05:23 AM
First Post - doing research before switching. While investigating the mouse issue I found my favorite mouse is indeed supported by OSX. The MS Wireless Intellimouse Explorer fits perfectly in my hand and more than the right mouse button - I live with the scroll function. As I read this forum it is how I navigate up and down.

Drivers for OSX IntelliPoint driver for Macintosh (http://www.microsoft.com/mac/downloads.aspx?pid=download&location=/mac/download/hardware/intellipointdriver.xml&secid=70&ssid=1&flgnosysreq=True)

Information about my current mouse of choice can be found here Wireless Intellimouse Explorer (http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/mouse/wie_info.asp)

I will be posting other questions regarding my future purchase in the Buying Tips, Advice and Discussion forum. Please take a look and offer me your advice please.

Waldo Pepper
Aug 23, 2003, 06:32 AM
I still don't understand why people simply aren't using the hockey puck, It has to be one of Apple greatest designs ever.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

.....ok maybe not

soggywulf
Aug 23, 2003, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
I have a two-button mouse, but in defense of control-clicking, it keeps one hand on the keyboard, which makes you more productive for the same reason that keyboard shortcuts do--the time it takes to transition from keyboard to mouse and back. If you keep one hand on the keyboard, there's no transition time.

Hmm, I don't follow you here. Keyboard shortcuts are different, because you can keep both hands on the keyboard (plus of course they save time over moving the mouse around). But with control-clicks, you have to be on both the keyboard and mouse anyway. Plus you have to distract your pinky (and for me on a laptop, my eyes as well--this makes it doubly annoying) to the control key.




Originally posted by Waldo Pepper
I still don't understand why people simply aren't using the hockey puck, It has to be one of Apple greatest designs ever.
.
.
.

.....ok maybe not

LOL.

trianglejuice
Aug 23, 2003, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by soggywulf
Hmm, I don't follow you here. Keyboard shortcuts are different, because you can keep both hands on the keyboard (plus of course they save time over moving the mouse around). But with control-clicks, you have to be on both the keyboard and mouse anyway. Plus you have to distract your pinky (and for me on a laptop, my eyes as well--this makes it doubly annoying) to the control key.


I told you that it's just a way of self-habit. My left hand always lies on the right side of my keyboard; ready to use the Ctrl, Alt or Cmd button. It's something you get used to when you're constantly working with e.g. Adobe Photoshop.

TJ.

Phil Of Mac
Aug 23, 2003, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by Waldo Pepper
I still don't understand why people simply aren't using the hockey puck, It has to be one of Apple greatest designs ever.

Actually, I liked the puck. Problem was that Apple thought too different and people didn't know what to do.

Guys, it's a finger mouse, not a hand mouse. You anchor the heel of your hand on the desk and hold the mouse lightly between your index and ring fingers, and slide it around.

Originally posted by soggywulf
Hmm, I don't follow you here. Keyboard shortcuts are different, because you can keep both hands on the keyboard (plus of course they save time over moving the mouse around). But with control-clicks, you have to be on both the keyboard and mouse anyway. Plus you have to distract your pinky (and for me on a laptop, my eyes as well--this makes it doubly annoying) to the control key.

The control key is the downmost, leftmost key. I don't see why it's so difficult to find.

My point was, with one hand on the keyboard and the other on the mouse, you can use the mouse while still firing off a few keyboard commands. You can even start typing while your hand moves from the mouse to the keyboard.

Or at least that's the argument.

soggywulf
Aug 23, 2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Guys, it's a finger mouse, not a hand mouse. You anchor the heel of your hand on the desk and hold the mouse lightly between your index and ring fingers, and slide it around.

That was only half the problem. The other problem with the puck was that it did not naturally fall into the proper orientation. All other mice have a definite direction which is immediately detectable by your hand. Not so the puck--which means the mouse always moves a little off the heading you intend.

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
The control key is the downmost, leftmost key. I don't see why it's so difficult to find.

Not on an ibook--I believe the function key is there. Control is one in. I think. And since "Open in new Tab" is command-click (in Mozilla as well as Safari, I think), and the function key is needed for page up/down, I always have to stop and think and look and rethink and finally half the time I hit the wrong modifier anyway. A mess. Yeah sure, I can manage--but the point is, Apple is supposed to be easier and more intuitive. At this point, I think you will agree that right-clicking is better in that sense (perhaps with a caveat for absolute novice users).

Phil Of Mac
Aug 23, 2003, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by soggywulf
That was only half the problem. The other problem with the puck was that it did not naturally fall into the proper orientation. All other mice have a definite direction which is immediately detectable by your hand. Not so the puck--which means the mouse always moves a little off the heading you intend.

They added a groove on the second revision to solve that problem.

Originally posted by soggywulf
Not on an ibook--I believe the function key is there. Control is one in. I think. And since "Open in new Tab" is command-click (in Mozilla as well as Safari, I think), and the function key is needed for page up/down, I always have to stop and think and look and rethink and finally half the time I hit the wrong modifier anyway. A mess. Yeah sure, I can manage--but the point is, Apple is supposed to be easier and more intuitive. At this point, I think you will agree that right-clicking is better in that sense (perhaps with a caveat for absolute novice users).

Well, I use a dual-button wireless mouse with a clickable scroll wheel anyway, I was just offering that argument because I thought it was interesting.

bennetsaysargh
Aug 23, 2003, 06:41 PM
i use the puck!
i love it. i wish apple still made the puck.:(

SiliconAddict
Aug 24, 2003, 02:27 AM
Originally posted by srobert

Now if only Tesla would have completed his research on how to transmit electricity wirelessly. That would have been awesome. A full bluetooth and TeslaPowered computer and periphicals would be delightfull. ;-p

Actually this can be done in a roundabout way. Not via the air. Not yet at any rate. But via a surface. I think it was about a year or so ago I was reading ZDNET or possibly news.com about a method of charging various devices through a plate. Instead of using cables your simply drop the device onto the plate and it automatically charges. Before you say what about getting a shock by touching the surface they mention in the article, I think, that the contacts have to be metal based.
What would be really cool is if in the future the desktop of all computer desks would use this method so any device: camera, mouse, keyboard, laptop, ipod, etc that gets set down on it would charge.
Hmm I need to find that article again. I thought this trick had come from HP but I could be wrong.

Phil Of Mac
Aug 24, 2003, 02:54 AM
Maybe it'll be the same way we recharge electric toothbrushes. My recharghing stand for my toothbrush doesn't do anything when I touch it, and water doesn't affect it, yet it still recharges the toothbrush. It's all plastic, too. On both ends.

The technology exists.

iRiKliAN
Sep 3, 2003, 10:14 AM
Without a doubt!

Apple Pro BTooth Mouse & <PRESENTER> ???

- 30-foot (9-meter) range and no line of sight required
- Optical mouse precision on almost any surface:
- Simple two-button design to move through presentations easily
- Power-saving switch and smart power management
- Carrying case included
- Two Rechargable AA batteries included
- Rapid firewire charge base station
- Five-year warranty
- Compatible with most presentation applications inc. Keynote

Apple Pro BTooth Keyboard

- Eliminate clutter with cordless freedom through bluetooth technology with secure encryption
- Enjoy total control of your Movies and iTunes directly from the keyboard
-Access favorite web sites and applications with one-touch hot keys
- 2 AA NiMH rechargeable batteries via Firewire Mouse charge station


Logitech anyone?

iRiKliAN
Sep 3, 2003, 11:38 AM
Really.. how much can Stevie talk up a cordless keyboard and mouse launch ?

Apple are definetly not the first. So what's the punch? Well theres obviously no clutter, it uses Bluetooth, and has a few extra buttons.

That does NOT impress me... it infuriates me. So much suffering, for so long, we have waited.

So i ask... is not Apple aware of the rage swelling deep within, at such an overdue release. YES. Completely aware.

Apple can not afford to tarnish its image at such a crucial peroid. So, it will anounce the mother of all MICE.

The Apple iMouse Presenter.