Man, 72, refused alcohol over age [Archive]

Jaffa Cake

Sep 20, 2007, 05:37 AM

If I remember rightly from my time in the wines and spirits profession, technically speaking it doesn’t matter how old the individual is – if they’ve been challenged for ID and they’re unable to provide you with any, then you can’t serve them.

However, it was bloody stupid to ask this guy for ID in the first place. There's no photo of the gentleman in question on the article, but I think it's safe to assume that he certainly appeared to be over 21.

iBlue

Sep 20, 2007, 05:41 AM

that's rich. :rolleyes:

like the amputee who was asked to prove his disability before being let on the bus. link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/6521979.stm)

Must be graduates of the WTF university.

Southern

Sep 20, 2007, 05:47 AM

Must be graduates of the WTF university.

Hahaha, I laughed. Our office was incredulous when we read this article on the Beeb yesterday - which then prompted a tirade of "oh yeah, that happened to me once" stories, making out that we were pissheads trying to get served at all hours of the day. In front of customers :)

I was once in my local Tescos when I was at uni at about 1.30am. This was a 24 hour one store. I tried to buy some Kaliber (non-alcoholic beer) and they refused because licensing laws prohibited the sale after 11pm. Because it was an alcoholic beverage.

Despite being sold as not having any alcohol in it.

FFS guys, get a grip.

solvs

Sep 21, 2007, 02:50 AM

The law says if you look over 35, they don't have to ask you. But some are worried they're going to be sued or fined. Or they're jerks. So they hide behind the part of the law that says you need to provide evidence if asked. Believe it or not, it's there for a reason. It's hard to draw a line and say what age is ok, but the arbitrary number of 35 is there if they choose to use it.

If not, show ID or no alcohol for you.

Loge

Sep 21, 2007, 08:38 AM

It sounds like he wasn't asked to show ID, just to state that he was over 21. Pointless stubbornness on both sides really.

lilrichie

Sep 21, 2007, 09:20 AM

Working in retail myself, if the individual in question is challenged by the sales staff for proof of age (UK Law) it dosent matter if they are 21 or 91 they have to provide their Identification to be served however if i was to challenge that man as they did in the Wirral and my manager was called he was politely take the customer to one side appologise and ask me to serve them because obviously i was taking the biscuit.

I think that store had been given order from the top to ask people buying alcohol for ID and decided it would be fun to take it one step to far, in this case causing up-roar.

edesignuk

Sep 21, 2007, 09:22 AM

Working in retail myself, if the individual in question is challenged by the sales staff for proof of age (UK Law)Which in itself is fair enough, but what kind of twunt asks a 72 year old in the first place?

lilrichie

Sep 21, 2007, 09:24 AM

"I think that store had been given order from the top to ask people buying alcohol for ID and decided it would be fun to take it one step to far, in this case causing up-roar."

wordmunger

Sep 21, 2007, 09:24 AM

I'm 40 and I hadn't been carded for years. Then last month I went to New York and got carded three or four times. Rather amusing, actually, for someone with a full beard that's 50 percent gray.

dornoforpyros

Sep 21, 2007, 09:35 AM

I know in some places (such as alberta where I live) the law says you have to be of age and have your id on your person to be served alcohol. So although the bar staff may not be questioning your age at all, they are still required to ask just because if a liquor inspector comes in and finds a person without ID the establishment can be fined.

Silly law? absolutely. But having at the end of the day the people running the bars must abide by it.

raggedjimmi

Sep 21, 2007, 01:05 PM

I don't see much wrong with this. If it's their job and they can get sued for it then as bar owners (or wherever this was) they risk trouble for themselves if the person is under 18.
It's a bit extreme but I've known kids in secondary school to put on fake beards and stuff to look older just to get served.

In the sue and blame society we're living in this is what we should be expecting to see more often.

calculus

Sep 21, 2007, 01:09 PM

What he should have done is ask for proof that the person serving him was old enough to do so. That would have floored them...

IJ Reilly

Sep 21, 2007, 01:52 PM

I can see the supermarket's point. This gentleman doesn't look a day over 60.

lilrichie

Sep 21, 2007, 01:53 PM

What he should have done is ask for proof that the person serving him was old enough to do so. That would have floored them...

Wouldnt make no odds, that person only has to be in the presence of someone over 18 and that rule is shot dead.

bellychris

Sep 21, 2007, 02:13 PM

Um forgive my ignorance but I thought the drinking age in the U.K. was 18 and over not 21 and over. :confused:

lilrichie

Sep 21, 2007, 02:17 PM

Um forgive my ignorance but I thought the drinking age in the U.K. was 18 and over not 21 and over. :confused:

21 is the given guideline because apparently it is harder to judge someone who may or may not look 18 so the goverment say if they dont look 21 ID them.....

BoyBach

Sep 21, 2007, 02:19 PM

Um forgive my ignorance but I thought the drinking age in the U.K. was 18 and over not 21 and over. :confused:

You are correct.

But recently lot's of pubs, bars and off-licences have been implementing the Challenge 21 scheme (http://www.beerandpub.com/content.asp?id_Content=2573&id_ContentType=1) in an attempt to stop selling alcohol to under-18's.

Having said that, the people who challenged the chap about his age in this story should be sacked. No excuses.

bellychris

Sep 21, 2007, 02:31 PM

You are correct.

But recently lot's of pubs, bars and off-licences have been implementing the Challenge 21 scheme (http://www.beerandpub.com/content.asp?id_Content=2573&id_ContentType=1) in an attempt to stop selling alcohol to under-18's.

Having said that, the people who challenged the chap about his age in this story should be sacked. No excuses.

Oh ok thanks, over here in New Jersey I think they are supposed to I.D. you if you look under 24 or 25.

imac/cheese

Sep 21, 2007, 02:39 PM

I have seen signs in convenience stores that state: "We will not sell cigarettes or alcohol to anyone that looks under 30 years old without ID."

bousozoku

Sep 21, 2007, 02:45 PM

Which in itself is fair enough, but what kind of twunt asks a 72 year old in the first place?

The kind that had been cited for not asking for proof of identification in past instances, most likely.

dale.albiston

Sep 21, 2007, 06:30 PM

i like the way asda (uk) handles this, a sign stating:

"if you are lucky enough to look under 21..."

nice approach.

in cases of "i know this is a stupid question but.." which i have been asked a few times i find if they ask with a smile i'd have no problems at all.

but then i don't carry id with me, i fail to see the need frankly.

had one shop insist i had to have a passport to by a bottle or martini.. told em i didn't have a passport.. this appeared to cause confusion, i ended up leaving, apparently they were going to call to police since i was obviously attempting 'something'. yeah whatever.

this was a clear case of following a stupid rule to the letter, and then the gent in question refusing to give the correct answer.

personally i'd have answered it, but in a somewhat sarcastic way, but the answer would have been clear.

i dare say the bad publicity the 'M' have got over this really wasn't worth it and the staff in question will never live this down.

ehurtley

Sep 21, 2007, 06:36 PM

Twunting Jobsworthy twunt!!

I got refused once!
I didn't have any ID on me. So I went home got some and went back. Demanded to see the store manager and made the sales staff apologise as they were *******ing when they refused me. So I suggested they were ****ing around and they got reprimanded right then and there!

How old were you at the time? In the U.S., many localities (and most establishments,) have a policy of verifying age for anyone that "looks under 30". That is, of course, completely subjective, so if you were 28 at the time, they could have been just following policy. When I was 19, with a long beard, I was often mistaken for being in my late 20's/early 30's. I could buy beer with almost no fear of being 'carded', while my 23 year old friends were carded often. My wife, on the other hand, at 35 was often mistaken for being in her early 20s. (My wife is 10 years older than I am, yet people often think I am older than her. When I tell people we are 10 years apart, they usually get it backwards, and comment that I look very young for my age.)

Counterfit

Sep 21, 2007, 08:58 PM

Rodimus Prime

Sep 21, 2007, 10:24 PM

How old were you at the time? In the U.S., many localities (and most establishments,) have a policy of verifying age for anyone that "looks under 30". That is, of course, completely subjective, so if you were 28 at the time, they could have been just following policy. When I was 19, with a long beard, I was often mistaken for being in my late 20's/early 30's. I could buy beer with almost no fear of being 'carded', while my 23 year old friends were carded often. My wife, on the other hand, at 35 was often mistaken for being in her early 20s. (My wife is 10 years older than I am, yet people often think I am older than her. When I tell people we are 10 years apart, they usually get it backwards, and comment that I look very young for my age.)

case and point on why some places have a policy that is crystal clear. No ID no Alcohol. It does not matter your age they require you to always show your id.
Personally I think the store made the right move. It is their policy. To many people like the posted I quoted can get away with it.
Heck it is possible for some one in is 19-20 to easily added 10-20+ years to there looks so the safe bet is to Aways card because if a store sells to some one under 21 no matter what the age the person looks like they will get fined no if and or buts about it.

210

Sep 22, 2007, 07:11 AM

I don't mind being carded as I take it as a compliment. I'm 30 and have been told many a time if I have ID to buy a lotto ticket or ciggarettes (you have to be over 16 to buy them). I always have by driver's license card in my wallet so it doesn't bother me.

However, that 60 year old must have discovered the elixir of youth or has been using Oil Of Ulay since he was 10 to look under 21!

xsedrinam

Sep 22, 2007, 12:29 PM

A Morrisons spokesman said: "We take our responsibility with regard to selling alcohol very seriously and all our stores operate the Task 21 scheme, which addresses the difficulties our staff face in being able to determine if a customer is legally old enough to buy alcohol."
"Difficulties" determining if this mug is over 21? I'd say the manager has financial issues and is projecting his tensions on to staff. Totally banal anal.

paddy

Sep 22, 2007, 01:45 PM

For gods sake the mans 72, some right eejit whoever tried to card him. :rolleyes:

d_and_n5000

Sep 22, 2007, 07:42 PM

My God - I think I'd be rather offended if the clerk tried to card me at that age. If he were a young-looking forty year old, i can see, but 72? That is just retarded.

mrbrown

Oct 13, 2007, 09:37 PM

Rodimus Prime

Oct 14, 2007, 03:04 PM

There are some states here in the US where the neo-prohibitionist organization known as M.A.D.D. has gotten laws passed to where you can't be served alcohol, period, if you don't have ID (doesn't matter if you're 100 years old)... I believe Tennessee is one of them.

And then there are states like New Hampshire where EVERYBODY WITH YOU has to be carded. If you're a parent and have a child with you, you can forget about buying alcohol.

umm it is legal for a child to drink alcohol if their legal gariden is the one buying it for them. So in that case they are not going to stop one from buying it.

As for the the article l itself I fully support the store. No ID no Alcohol no matter the age(and in some states that is the law). I know in Texas it is a pretty heavy fine to sell to a minor. Not only does the store get fined the clerk gets a heavy fine and has their rear taken to jail for the night. The only way for the clerk not to get in trouble for selling alcohol to a minor is if they have a Texas DL that a reasonable person would consider legit looking at it very quickly.

Also as some one else pointed out it is not hard to add 10-20+ years to some one look. I knew a guy who shaved just the top part of his head so he look like he was balding. He look like he was pushing 50 (he was 19 years old). I personally am 24 years old but with my beard I look a heck of a lot closer to to 30 and some days from lack of sleep or just stress I will like like I am mid 30s. Now if I grey my hear a little I would easily look over 40. I already am starting to get some grey.
As for me being ID 1/2 the time I get ID 1/2 the time they just assume I am over the age limit. The only time I have ever seen a bar not ID any one was because it was over loaded with a bunch college students that where in there Jr Sr year. This bar was not in a college town or even near a college so they never really have to deal with a ton of college students. On top of all that the most of us where of age and it was not like not selling to some one under age was going to stop them since each school had 2-3 running tabs (we had 6 colleges and 18 or so students per college.)

Jaffa Cake

Oct 14, 2007, 03:11 PM

umm it is legal for a child to drink alcohol if their legal gariden is the one buying it for them. So in that case they are not going to stop one from buying it.It depends where you are though. Here, you can't sell alcohol to an adult if you suspect they may be buying it for someone under 18-years old, be they legal guardian or not. When I worked in an off-licence I had to refuse sales for that particular reason quite regularly.

I think there was some obscure loop hole a few years back that you could buy booze for a kid in a pub if it was a certain drink below a certain alcohol content and they were drinking it in a different room from which it was served, while eating, but I'm certain they sealed that particular loophole when it came to light. :D

calculus

Oct 14, 2007, 03:16 PM

In your own home you can give children alcohol from the age of five...

Jaffa Cake

Oct 14, 2007, 03:39 PM

In your own home you can give children alcohol from the age of five...Looking at this (http://www.youthinformation.com/Templates/Internal.asp?NodeID=92124) – discussing the Licensing Act 2003 – it seems that the children aged five and over thing is in Scotland only... mind, it says that five+ is apparently okay but the next sentence it says that '[anyone] buying alcohol for anyone under 18 commits an offence' which seems a little contradictory. So you can give a child alcohol but it's against the law to buy it for them? Home brew, anyone? :p

It does say though that 16-17-year-olds can drink outside of the home in both England and Scotland, as long as they're having a table meal in licensed premises with a proper grown up.

I dunno – it was a long time ago and I was only following orders. :D

mkrishnan

Oct 14, 2007, 03:43 PM

As for the the article l itself I fully support the store. No ID no Alcohol no matter the age(and in some states that is the law).

I agree... recognizing this is your (to you residents of the UK) country and not mine, I still think that the minimal inconvenience (which is what I see it as -- not as a violation of any kind of civil liberty) associated with making an obviously of-age individual provide proof of age is much more in the public interest than the consequences of an inconsistent policy. It sounds good when you say that people can rely on common sense, but common sense is just not a good system on which to achieve completely reliable results.

Rodimus Prime

Oct 14, 2007, 04:21 PM

It depends where you are though. Here, you can't sell alcohol to an adult if you suspect they may be buying it for someone under 18-years old, be they legal guardian or not. When I worked in an off-licence I had to refuse sales for that particular reason quite regularly.

I think there was some obscure loop hole a few years back that you could buy booze for a kid in a pub if it was a certain drink below a certain alcohol content and they were drinking it in a different room from which it was served, while eating, but I'm certain they sealed that particular loophole when it came to light. :D

while it is the store choice in it is not illegal for a legal guardian to buy alcohol for the person if they are under age. But the alcohol my not be shared with any one else underage (because the legal guardian did not buy it for them) That is the law and I belive that is the law in all 50 states.

Now for any one one else yeah that is the way you are supposed to do it. (yes I have work in a store that sold boozes so I do know the law there) The reason most store do not follow that rule on legal guardian is because it is confusing and they are worried about it being abused. Much simpler case to just make it a blanket band for the store.

Rodimus Prime

Oct 14, 2007, 04:30 PM

I agree... recognizing this is your (to you residents of the UK) country and not mine, I still think that the minimal inconvenience (which is what I see it as -- not as a violation of any kind of civil liberty) associated with making an obviously of-age individual provide proof of age is much more in the public interest than the consequences of an inconsistent policy. It sounds good when you say that people can rely on common sense, but common sense is just not a good system on which to achieve completely reliable results.

very true. while I do think it might be a minor inconvence to always have to get it out I still trying to figure out how it is so hard. Most people carrier their money and credit cards in their wallet. Also they carry there DL in their wallet so it is not like one has to really remember to bring it with them. For me asking to see my id at most means I have to get my wallet out of my pocket one extra time to show some one my id. It takes me a hole 5 seconds. It is very rare for me to buy something with out my wallet and with a few bucks in my pocket and I never try to by booze that way. the only time I may not have my wallet on me and a credit card is if I going out really quickly to get gas.

I am still working on how it is so hard to just show ones id (even if that person is clearly of age.) It a matter of policy so there can not be any questions what so ever is some one is old enough. I know in NC it is the law No ID no Alcohol (yes even if you are 99 the law still applies)

Jaffa Cake

Oct 14, 2007, 04:39 PM

That is the law and I believe that is the law in all 50 states.My experience though is with the law here in the UK, which naturally differs from US law –heck, even within the UK we have different laws depending whether you're in England or Scotland... ;)

The law here as it was explained to me at my old place of employment was that we couldn't serve to someone if we suspected that the alcohol was to be consumed by someone under 18-years old, whatever the circumstances. Mind, it was quite a few years ago that I worked there (13 years or so, to be precise) so the law may have been amended in the meantime, or it might have been more shop policy than legal requirement – and as mentioned by calculus, it looks like there might be exceptions to the law anyway depending on the circumstances in which the alcohol is to be consumed.

But as you say it's easier for a blanket rule to be applied to limit confusion and confrontation – an example of that in the UK would be the recently adopted practice of asking for ID from someone who doesn't look over 21, even if they're 18-21-years old and as such legally entitled to buy the booze of their choice.

It's all a little confusing though, so I'm glad that I'm not working in an offy any more and that I'm old enough to (usually) purchase alcohol without challenge. Cheers! :)

mrbrown

Oct 16, 2007, 01:37 AM

umm it is legal for a child to drink alcohol if their legal gariden is the one buying it for them. So in that case they are not going to stop one from buying it.

Not at all correct. In fact, for a while, the legal drinking age here in Louisiana was 18, provided that a parent, guardian, or spouse (over the age of 21) purchases the alcohol and PHYSICALLY HANDED IT to the 18-20 year old. Public possession (including consumption) by anybody under 18 was prohibited.

After a big stink involving DWI laws and MADD, it was brought up to 21, and anyone under 21 can drink with a parent/guardian/spouse over 21 present.

And as ridiculous as the NH thing sounds - its absolutely true to the best of my knowledge... saw it in action the last time it was up there. You can't even buy a six pack with your kid present (as you're unable to comply with the law, since the child is not over 21, and cannot show a license proving that), much less go into a state run liquor store. It should be noted, this is in regards to PURCHASING, not DRINKING (two totally different actions).

blipper

Oct 16, 2007, 10:54 PM

I hadn't been carded since I turned 18, back in the early '70s when that was the drinking age. However, this spring, on my way back from visiting my first grandchild, I got carded at one of the restaraunts in the Atlanta airport. Now, I'm a young grandfather, but still . . . .

samh004

Oct 17, 2007, 12:40 AM

umm it is legal for a child to drink alcohol if their legal gariden is the one buying it for them. So in that case they are not going to stop one from buying it.

According to New Zealand law that is the case, and it's a very good law. I have had many a hot chocolate on a ski mountain with some liqueur in it thanks to that law, however then New Zealand has other laws that are completely ridiculous.

phillipjfry

Oct 17, 2007, 10:10 PM

There is a liquor store where I used to grow up. The sign outside reads "If you're under 21, don't walk in. I know how to stage a robbery"
A friend of mine has that disorder where you just stop aging. He's 23 and looks every bit like an 8 year old boy. You want to talk about tough time getting drunk...

21stcenturykid

Oct 18, 2007, 05:08 PM

What a load of tosh. It's just taking it too far why would you even bother asking for ID for someone that is so obviously over 21 or even 50.

The store manager delt with it very badly. If he had the slightest bit of common sense he would see the guy is old enought to be allowed to buy alchohol.

I know it's usually "only in america" but "only in liverpool" :p

Simplesimon101

Oct 19, 2007, 10:47 AM

i think you'll find that that morrisons (the supermarket) had been recently in trouble for serving underage kids. so they where asking people just to be on the safe side (they may've even been told to do that). it's not really a problem for someone just to say they're over 21.

dunno what all the fuss is about. (plus it makes more sense when you know that background not that most journalists will tell you what it is)

im_to_hyper

Oct 19, 2007, 02:43 PM

I'm 19 and have purchased beer before without being carded in Minnesota just to see if I could do it here.

I'm from Wisconsin originally and go to the bars with my parents... even when I was 16 they would buy me a Smirnoff Ice or something. As long as a parent/guardian is with the under-21 person, the kids can drink.

Also, police have to right to enter a home if they suspect an underage party as long as a parent is the one answering the door. I know a lot of times they will hover around and wait for some kid to leave and try getting in his car, but the kids never leave. (This happened to me once or maybe 5 times in high school.)

So, I guess Louisiana and Wisconsin have something in common there! Good law, that one.