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MacRumors
Sep 20, 2007, 02:40 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

ZDNet's Apple Core blog (http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=882) notes that if you've hacked your iPhone, you may want to restore to defaults before bringing it into an Apple Store for service.

A colleague of O'Grady's was initially refused service for his iPhone due to a combination of 3rd party applications and an unlocked iPhone (on T-Mobile).
So while he eventually got Apple to return the iPhone (after paying the restocking fee, that is), the lesson here is to do a restore of your iPhone and re-install the factory AT&T SIM before bringing into an Apple Store for service. That’s the beauty of software-only hacks, after all!

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/iphone/2007/09/20/apple-refusing-service-on-hacked-iphones/)



NightStorm
Sep 20, 2007, 02:44 PM
Is this even slightly surprising to anyone?

Not me.

Cybergypsy
Sep 20, 2007, 02:45 PM
Common Sense to some:)

severe
Sep 20, 2007, 02:45 PM
Makes sense to me.

brn2prgrm
Sep 20, 2007, 02:46 PM
Well duh! You expect Apple to repair your phone after you've not only hacked it but you're also using it with another provider besides AT&T? Haha that was stupid! He was lucky to get anything...

PDE
Sep 20, 2007, 02:47 PM
My questions is: if you restore it and put in the ATT sim, how do you demonstrate the problem? Will they just pop out the sim and put in one of theirs?

overanalyzer
Sep 20, 2007, 02:49 PM
My questions is: if you restore it and put in the ATT sim, how do you demonstrate the problem? Will they just pop out the sim and put in one of theirs?

If the problem is due to a hack, you're on your own.... Assuming it's a hardware issue or something else requiring Apple service, a restore presumably won't fix it. Otherwise it must be from the hack.

PDE
Sep 20, 2007, 02:56 PM
If the problem is due to a hack, you're on your own.... Assuming it's a hardware issue or something else requiring Apple service, a restore presumably won't fix it. Otherwise it must be from the hack.

Well, right, I understand that if I ruin the phone with a hack I will take responsibility. However, I'm curious about actually being able to show the genius what the problem is if the phone has been restored and not re-activated. There will just be a screen saying that I need to activate it. Will apple require that it be re-activated through ATT before they examine it, or will they use their own sim?

kbrain2929
Sep 20, 2007, 03:01 PM
Kudos to Apple. They are a business and they are here to make money. If they make some people pissed off, oh well, that's business! Again, kudos to Apple! :apple:

MacBoobsPro
Sep 20, 2007, 03:04 PM
Well duh... serves all the unlockers right. They are blatantly breaking the user agreement they signed up to when buying the phone. Apple could quite easily tell them to fuzz right off.

They are also delaying firmware updates for the rest of us while Apple tries to 're-lock' the phones.

You will all end up in hell with locked iPhones raining down on you forever! :apple:

PDE
Sep 20, 2007, 03:06 PM
Kudos to Apple. They are a business and they are here to make money. If they make some people pissed off, oh well, that's business! Again, kudos to Apple! :apple:

Yeah kudos to Apple! Their current direction is doomed to failure. The might be able to make a few bucks before they're eventually stopped by consumer rights laws (most likely in the EU, rather than here) , but it's just a matter of time...

The new Microsoft? Yes...

KindredMAC
Sep 20, 2007, 03:10 PM
If the little punk brought it in to be serviced and didn't think anything of the fact that the iPhone was hacked, he is barely functionally retarded.

If the turd brought it in thinking he was going to be thought of as "cool" for unlocking his iPhone, he is beyond retarded.

Why hack the iPhone? There really isn't that much you can do that is THAT great with the different apps. The only one that peaks my interest is the "GPS" off of cell towers that weas released yesterday. But you know what? I refuse to hack my lovely iPhone to use that. I am one of the sheep in that if Apple thinks I need it they will give it to me and only when I am ready for it.

That's why I do not hack OS X or anyother Mac product. Hacking something to think that you are actually making it better is such a PC mindset.

PDE
Sep 20, 2007, 03:13 PM
Well duh... serves all the unlockers right. They are blatantly breaking the user agreement they signed up to when buying the phone. Apple could quite easily tell them to fuzz right off.

They are also delaying firmware updates for the rest of us while Apple tries to 're-lock' the phones.

You will all end up in hell with locked iPhones raining down on you forever! :apple:

Or you'll be reincarnated as a permanently locked iphone!


I've been looking at all the papers that came with my iphone, but I can't find any user agreement that says that I'm not allowed to unlock the iphone. There is none. Also, I never signed a contract/agreement with Apple. In the warranty description, there is a section that says that the warranty does not apply if damage is caused by operating the product outside the intended use as described by Apple. So, unless the problem is directly related to the hack or unlock (and Apple can prove it), I don't see how they can deny providing warranty service. Can somebody tell me where it says that unlocking will void the warranty? Maybe I missed it...

neven
Sep 20, 2007, 03:16 PM
Well, right, I understand that if I ruin the phone with a hack I will take responsibility. However, I'm curious about actually being able to show the genius what the problem is if the phone has been restored and not re-activated. There will just be a screen saying that I need to activate it. Will apple require that it be re-activated through ATT before they examine it, or will they use their own sim?

They will look at it and say, ok, what seems to be the problem? If the problem is such that you can't demonstrate it without activating the phone, then they'll say great, enjoy your iPhone, have a nice day. That's the whole point of "this breaks your warranty" disclaimers.

I don't think there's any business that will "fix" a problem caused by using your product in a way they don't advise. If I take out the HDD from a computer I got at Best Buy, then take it in for service with no HDD, do you think they'll put one in to see what's wrong with my network card?

Yeah kudos to Apple! Their current direction is doomed to failure. The might be able to make a few bucks before they're eventually stopped by consumer rights laws (most likely in the EU, rather than here) , but it's just a matter of time...

The new Microsoft? Yes...

Care to invest any money in this prediction? Or at least specify a date by which this doom and gloom might befall Apple?

They've been making these "few bucks" for quite some time now, and it shows no signs of stopping.

ct-scan
Sep 20, 2007, 03:20 PM
That's about as bad as turning your computer into apple with stolen serial number for their large apps like Final Cut Studio....they may take notice.

Then again some people may be too busy to notice, but you need to think about what you are doing and their, rightful, stance on things such as this.

Anonymous Freak
Sep 20, 2007, 03:26 PM
Well, right, I understand that if I ruin the phone with a hack I will take responsibility. However, I'm curious about actually being able to show the genius what the problem is if the phone has been restored and not re-activated. There will just be a screen saying that I need to activate it. Will apple require that it be re-activated through ATT before they examine it, or will they use their own sim?

If restoring it fixes the problem, then you shouldn't need to bring it in to Apple in the first place.

If restoring it fixes it, then re-installing the hacks causes the problem again, well, there you go. The hacks are causing it. Not Apple's problem.

If you restore it, and don't have active AT&T service to re-activate it, then you'll have to use one of the activation-avoidance tricks. If the problem still exists, put the AT&T SIM back in and see if it still happens. If so, bring it to Apple then. (Un-hacked, other than the unlocking and faked activation, but that's the best you can do.)

If the problem is phone related, and you don't have active AT&T service, only unlocked T-Mobile, well, then you're screwed. You may have to borrow a friend's active AT&T SIM to bring it in to Apple for testing. (And, again, if it works fine with an AT&T SIM, but not with your T-Mobile SIM, you're still screwed.)

PDE
Sep 20, 2007, 03:29 PM
Care to invest any money in this prediction? Or at least specify a date by which this doom and gloom might befall Apple?

They've been making these "few bucks" for quite some time now, and it shows no signs of stopping.

No, I don't care to invest money in this prediction. My point is that while the world as a whole is moving toward more open systems that allow consumers choice and freedom, Apple is moving toward an ever-more closed system that dictates how people should use their products. They want to completely lock people up in the system and people don't want to be locked up. This is not only related to the iphone, but also other products Apple makes (ipods, some of its software etc). When going against the overwhelming trend of consumers throughout the world, I do think Apple will have to pay a price. I do think that Apple's general arrogance is detrimental to its growth and while they may get away with it for a while in the U.S., I don't think other markets will be as easy.

arn
Sep 20, 2007, 03:29 PM
I guess I should have noted (added to the story) that the apple store initially blacklisted his iphone from future service.

So even if he went home, restored to factory defaults, he would be presumably still be unable to get service.

Just a warning to restore before going to the Apple Store for the first time.

arn

compuguy1088
Sep 20, 2007, 03:33 PM
I guess I should have noted (added to the story) that the apple store initially blacklisted his iphone from future service.

So even if he went home, restored to factory defaults, he would be presumably still be unable to get service.

Just a warning to restore before going to the Apple Store for the first time.

arn

That still from a stand point sucks. I guess apple is starting to make their point that they don't like the unlocking of iPhones. I'm surprised they haven't thrown the new firmware up as well just to prove the point that they will fight against the hackers....even though the hackers will catch up :).

tny
Sep 20, 2007, 03:33 PM
That's about as bad as turning your computer into apple with stolen serial number for their large apps like Final Cut Studio....they may take notice.

Then again some people may be too busy to notice, but you need to think about what you are doing and their, rightful, stance on things such as this.

Not comparable. A stolen serial number is copyright theft. You have a right to do what you want with the phone, unlock or hack all you want - it's your phone. They may be within their rights under consumer law to exclude unlocked phones and hacks from service as unintended uses, but that depends upon whether the warranty specifies software or not. IANAL, but I bet there could be interesting test cases on this.

No, I don't care to invest money in this prediction. My point is that while the world as a whole is moving toward more open systems that allow consumers choice and freedom

Where is this strange universe you live in, and how do I get there? It seems to me that quite the opposite is happening: corporations are trying to do everything they can to limit consumer choice.

PDE
Sep 20, 2007, 03:36 PM
If restoring it fixes the problem, then you shouldn't need to bring it in to Apple in the first place.

If restoring it fixes it, then re-installing the hacks causes the problem again, well, there you go. The hacks are causing it. Not Apple's problem.

If you restore it, and don't have active AT&T service to re-activate it, then you'll have to use one of the activation-avoidance tricks. If the problem still exists, put the AT&T SIM back in and see if it still happens. If so, bring it to Apple then. (Un-hacked, other than the unlocking and faked activation, but that's the best you can do.)

If the problem is phone related, and you don't have active AT&T service, only unlocked T-Mobile, well, then you're screwed. You may have to borrow a friend's active AT&T SIM to bring it in to Apple for testing. (And, again, if it works fine with an AT&T SIM, but not with your T-Mobile SIM, you're still screwed.)


I'm just trying to find out how Apple will handle these things if the phone is presented to them locked with the activation screen on it? That is, without any evidence of unlocking at all, just a description of the problem and the customer's statement that there is what appears to be a hardware problem and that they restored the phone to the original factory settings before coming to the apple store, but did not re-activate it. I fully understand what you're saying, and that if unlocked and the unlocking has caused a problem, the customer will be responsible for repairs. But Apple hardware fails too and it may not be at all related to the software unlock.

I have ATT myself, but the old pre-cingular ATT. MY plan is great and I don't want to get a lesser plan just to be 'legit' with the iphone. And, as I understand it, I can't add the iphone data plan to this old service.

Where is this strange universe you live in, and how do I get there? It seems to me that quite the opposite is happening: corporations are trying to do everything they can to limit consumer choice.

Of course they are, but I do feel that in the EU there is considerable more government action taken to protect consumers. The latest Danish study on the original design flaw of the ibook G4s is a good example of government intervention on behalf of consumers. There are many others in Europe. In the U.S. this is obviously not the case and consumers, in my European mindset anyway, are consistently being screwed over.

The world is still more fluid than ever and people are increasingly mobile in their work, movement and economic activities. Nobody wants to be locked in place and that has, and will have, an impact on their purchasing choices, which in turn will affect companies like Apple.

bretm
Sep 20, 2007, 03:42 PM
No, I don't care to invest money in this prediction. My point is that while the world as a whole is moving toward more open systems that allow consumers choice and freedom, Apple is moving toward an ever-more closed system that dictates how people should use their products. They want to completely lock people up in the system and people don't want to be locked up. This is not only related to the iphone, but also other products Apple makes (ipods, some of its software etc). When going against the overwhelming trend of consumers throughout the world, I do think Apple will have to pay a price. I do think that Apple's general arrogance is detrimental to its growth and while they may get away with it for a while in the U.S., I don't think other markets will be as easy.

That trend is what has made windows a never ending crappier user experience and the Macintosh and iPhone a better and better user experience. It's also the reason Macintosh sales are growing every year. It's no monopoly and extremely far from it. They are far from any sort of world computer domination. They are a small subset that make better more elegant product for exactly the reasons you are specifying. Maybe it will put them out of business someday. I doubt it. But I for one will enjoy their hardware and software designs while they're with us that's for sure.

Of course they are, but I do feel that in the EU there is considerable more government action taken to protect consumers. The latest Danish study on the original design flaw of the ibook G4s is a good example of government intervention on behalf of consumers. There are many others in Europe. In the U.S. this is obviously not the case and consumers, in my European mindset anyway, are consistently being screwed over.

The world is still more fluid than ever and people are increasingly mobile in their work, movement and economic activities. Nobody wants to be locked in place and that has, and will have, an impact on their purchasing choices, which in turn will affect companies like Apple.

And you think the government is smart enough to dictate what the consumer wants? Forgive me, but I guess I thought leaving the market alone to figure things out for itself resulted in MORE choice and MORE competition every time. Let the market decide. Or I guess one can just give more and more money to the government and instead and let the bureaucrats work on the problem. I'm sure it's what they care about. NOT getting reelected.

tico
Sep 20, 2007, 03:45 PM
No, I don't care to invest money in this prediction. My point is that while the world as a whole is moving toward more open systems that allow consumers choice and freedom, Apple is moving toward an ever-more closed system that dictates how people should use their products...

What! You are not in the Matrix "Mr. Anderson". You make it seem as if Apple is forcing you into ATT slavery...It's only a CELL PHONE!! (A cool one at that.) Apple was able to enter into this market by making great deal with ATT. Period. They have to protect that partnership by making it RELATIVELY hack proof and I respect them for trying.
You dont like those terms? Buy a Blackjack.

ben5959
Sep 20, 2007, 03:48 PM
I'm just trying to find out how Apple will handle these things if the phone is presented to them locked with the activation screen on it? That is, without any evidence of unlocking at all, just a description of the problem and the customer's statement that there is what appears to be a hardware problem and that they restored the phone to the original factory settings before coming to the apple store, but did not re-activate it. I fully understand what you're saying, and that if unlocked and the unlocking has caused a problem, the customer will be responsible for repairs. But Apple hardware fails too and it may not be at all related to the software unlock.

I have ATT myself, but the old pre-cingular ATT. MY plan is great and I don't want to get a lesser plan just to be 'legit' with the iphone. And, as I understand it, I can't add the iphone data plan to this old service.

All you have to do to get around this is to call the iphone service #, you will give them your serial #, describe them your problem and then you will ship off your phone in a prepaid package that they overnight to you. You will be told to remove your sim card before you send your phone off. This way you will never have to demonstrate your problem to an actual person, you will just have to describe it. They'll never know your phone is hacked. In my case they sent me a loaner iphone for free while they repaired mine. I wasnt stupid enpough to hack mine in the first place, but this might be a better route to take for you crazy hackers rather than going into the apple store.:rolleyes:

gkarris
Sep 20, 2007, 03:50 PM
All you have to do to get around this is to call the iphone service #, you will give them your serial #, describe them your problem and then you will ship off your phone in a prepaid package that they overnight to you. You will be told to remove your sim card before you send your phone off. This way you will never have to demonstrate your problem to an actual person, you will just have to describe it. They'll never know your phone is hacked. In my case they sent me a loaner iphone for free while they repaired mine. I wasnt stupid enpough to hack mine in the first place, but this might be a better route to take for you crazy hackers rather than going into the apple store.:rolleyes:

I was about to say...

Do it this way, just make sure you take your rogue SIM out and reset the iPhone...

I have my old phone handy just in case...

rjwill246
Sep 20, 2007, 03:51 PM
My point is that while the world as a whole is moving toward more open systems that allow consumers choice and freedom, Apple is moving toward an ever-more closed system that dictates how people should use their products. They want to completely lock people up in the system and people don't want to be locked up. This is not only related to the iphone, but also other products Apple makes (ipods, some of its software etc). When going against the overwhelming trend of consumers throughout the world, I do think Apple will have to pay a price. I do think that Apple's general arrogance is detrimental to its growth and while they may get away with it for a while in the U.S., I don't think other markets will be as easy.

I guess you are not in business. Your implication is that "open" means free. You also seem to ignore the fact that there are imposed restrictions on Apple to keep some things locked. In any case, Apple has every right to make its products closed. No one has a right to expect otherwise, though you may want to.

Your use of arrogance suggests a strong anti-Apple bias, since you cite no example of that behaviour as you assume we all "know" about Apple's arrogance-- I guess!!!

It's true, consumers want Rolls-Royces for Hyundai prices... but, that is not how it is and Apple is going to do what it has to to remain competitive while not giving away the farm. As a stock-holder, I couldn't be happier with their general direction but I am concerned a little about some of their ham-fisted behaviour- as in the iPhone pricing- but hey, no one is asking me, or anyone else to buy Apple. It is all voluntary and in that regard you, the consumer, are more or less on their terms.

The EU is no paragon of fairness either. They use political bullying of companies to win votes... they are only your friend if you like to see companies thumped so you can have your own "cheap??" way!!!

Pounding Apple is surely the best way to make certain new and better products come out of the company -- it is guaranteed by some bureaucrat in Brussels, fer shure!!!

mrrydogg
Sep 20, 2007, 03:52 PM
No, I don't care to invest money in this prediction. My point is that while the world as a whole is moving toward more open systems that allow consumers choice and freedom, Apple is moving toward an ever-more closed system that dictates how people should use their products. They want to completely lock people up in the system and people don't want to be locked up. This is not only related to the iphone, but also other products Apple makes (ipods, some of its software etc). When going against the overwhelming trend of consumers throughout the world, I do think Apple will have to pay a price. I do think that Apple's general arrogance is detrimental to its growth and while they may get away with it for a while in the U.S., I don't think other markets will be as easy.

That is the biggest amount of bull I have heard in quite some time. Apple even addressed this a week or so ago and said they wouldn't directly go after hackers or the software makers, but if one of their updates happens to effect a hack, then so be it. How exactly is that line of thinking the same as "locking people in a system". They have always been good to the hackers, thats why people love buying their products, because their is freedom.

Their software has always been extremely open to hacks. They even recommend certain hacks. You are way off base on this one.

And if you haven't noticed, their growth is just now starting to pick up steam. They are only going up from here. And if they do fail, it will be from their products, not their "arrogance".

Fast Shadow
Sep 20, 2007, 03:53 PM
I'd say this falls into the category of common sense. Unless the problem was a physical defect, I would not expect Apple to be very interested in servicing my phone, being that it's hacked. That being said, I can flash it back to its original condition in a matter of minutes. If that doesn't fix the problem then I would expect them to service it, since it would be a matter of faulty hardware.

PDE
Sep 20, 2007, 03:57 PM
That trend is what has made windows a never ending crappier user experience and the Macintosh and iPhone a better and better user experience. It's also the reason Macintosh sales are growing every year. It's no monopoly and extremely far from it. They are far from any sort of world computer domination. They are a small subset that make better more elegant product for exactly the reasons you are specifying. Maybe it will put them out of business someday. I doubt it. But I for one will enjoy their hardware and software designs while they're with us that's for sure.

Look, I agree that Apple provides the best computer experience and that, in part, it's because they control things the way they do. I've been an Apple user since the early 1990s and have had most of their computers, run all their operating systems and am as loyal a customer as one can find. However, I really don't like the trend I'm seeing in terms of how they are trying to lock people into their 'echo system'.

I'm generally happy with their OS, though I've found their laptop hardware to be subpar in quality control - I only stay with it because I love OS X. But the iphone lock makes me mad because the phone is not subsidised - if it were, I'd say fine and be understanding that Apple/ATT is making sure they get their money back, but it really isn't subsidised and to lock it in like this is bad for the customer. Maybe the reason people don't care so much here is that they're not travellers and don't see why having a local sim would be important (AGAIN, mainly so that people you know abroad don't have to call internationally to reach you!).

Anyway, I'm going to stop here. I have an iphone which I'm happy with. I unlocked it with software and am running it on ATT's network, albeit without the dataplan. I'm quite satisfied, even though I'd like to know that hardware issues would be covered under warranty by Apple if they are not related to the sofware unlock. Other than that, I've never liked a phone so much.

zombitronic
Sep 20, 2007, 03:59 PM
...the warranty does not apply if damage is caused by operating the product outside the intended use as described by Apple...

...Can somebody tell me where it says that unlocking will void the warranty?

You answered your own question. The intended use, as described by Apple, is that you use the phone on AT&T's network.

PDE
Sep 20, 2007, 04:00 PM
I was about to say...

Do it this way, just make sure you take your rogue SIM out and reset the iPhone...

I have my old phone handy just in case...


Thanks, I'll keep that in mind if I ever have to send it in for service...

You answered your own question. The intended use, as described by Apple, is that you use the phone on AT&T's network.

Yes, but it clearly says that the warranty does not cover DAMAGE if it is the result of the item being used wrongly. What if it is not? What if it is the result of Apple's hardware failing?

That is the biggest amount of bull I have heard in quite some time. Apple even addressed this a week or so ago and said they wouldn't directly go after hackers or the software makers, but if one of their updates happens to effect a hack, then so be it. How exactly is that line of thinking the same as "locking people in a system". They have always been good to the hackers, thats why people love buying their products, because their is freedom.

Their software has always been extremely open to hacks. They even recommend certain hacks. You are way off base on this one.

And if you haven't noticed, their growth is just now starting to pick up steam. They are only going up from here. And if they do fail, it will be from their products, not their "arrogance".

Maybe I am off base. I do realise that many other companies are much worse, but Apple is becoming more and more like MS and that worries me.

Cybergypsy
Sep 20, 2007, 04:07 PM
Hello people, if you MOD your car you void your warranty......why not with phones???

mrrydogg
Sep 20, 2007, 04:14 PM
Maybe I am off base. I do realise that many other companies are much worse, but Apple is becoming more and more like MS and that worries me.

I understand...but I think they are just very much in the public eye right now and have had a couple decisions backfire that have been magnified.

If we know Jobs at all, its that he definitely will not go the MS way. At least in terms of how his business is perceived. That being said, Apple's goal is to dominate your electronic and computer world.

The Apple doesn't fall far from the tree sometimes! :)

PDE
Sep 20, 2007, 04:17 PM
I'm sorry if I got carried away here. I really love the iphone, but believe it should be unlocked and that Apple has chosen the wrong path here with locking it down. At the end of the day, it's just a ****ing phone and it really doesn't matter either way. The discussions has brought up lots of emotions that have little to do with the phone, and more to do with views of business, society and the relationship between individuals and large corporations. I think it's all an interesting discussion, but I'm going to stop here because I don't really want to keep leading the discussion astray with my political views.

Let's all enjoy apple products and the iphone!

Twinkie
Sep 20, 2007, 04:19 PM
Yes, but it clearly says that the warranty does not cover DAMAGE if it is the result of the item being used wrongly. What if it is not? What if it is the result of Apple's hardware failing?

Try again.

This warranty does not apply: (a) to damage caused by use with non-Apple products; (b) to damage caused by accident, abuse, misuse, flood, fire,
earthquake or other external causes; (c) to damage caused by operating the product outside the permitted or intended uses described by Apple; (d)
to damage caused by service (including upgrades and expansions) performed by anyone who is not a representative of Apple or an Apple Authorized
Service Provider (“AASP”); (e) to a product or part that has been modified to alter functionality or capability without the written permission of Apple; (f)
to consumable parts, such as batteries, unless damage has occurred due to a defect in materials or workmanship; (g) to cosmetic damage, including but
not limited to scratches, dents and broken plastic on ports; or (h) if any Apple serial number has been removed or defaced.There's no ambiguity there.

If you hack your iPhone at all, you void your warranty. Period.

Whether or not you find a benevolent Apple Store employee is another matter.

PDE
Sep 20, 2007, 04:20 PM
Try again.

There's no ambiguity there.

If you hack your iPhone at all, you void your warranty. Period.

Whether or not you find a benevolent Apple Store employee is another matter.

Yes, you're right. It is clear. Thanks.

Fast Shadow
Sep 20, 2007, 04:23 PM
Hello people, if you MOD your car you void your warranty......why not with phones???

Not exactly

Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson-Moss_Warranty_Act)

Twinkie
Sep 20, 2007, 04:28 PM
Not exactly

Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson-Moss_Warranty_Act)It doesn't have nearly the teeth it appears to.

In a nutshell, an automaker can't say your engine's cracked block is out of warranty because you didn't use their brand of motor oil. However, they can say that adding a supercharger brought the engine out of its tolerance specs, voiding the warranty.

Fast Shadow
Sep 20, 2007, 04:30 PM
That's why I said "not exactly" :)

alexbo
Sep 20, 2007, 04:32 PM
I am constantly amazed at the way the people on this forum are so strongly (even angrily?) against things like hacking the iPhone! It almost sounds like many of you have gone beyond making a personal judgement call to not unlock your phone, and now you actually are mad at the immorality of people who make the alternative choice.

I agree that you would have to be pretty dumb to take a tmobile sim into an apple store and expect them to help you, but come on! Don't say "Good for Apple for catching him!" Is the problem that you are jealous of the benefits you aren't getting by following the rules? For God's sake who cares?

My iPhone has an eBook reader, a full NES emulator, flashcards I study with, Tetris, pseudo-GPS, and an upgraded calculator --and I've only been using it a week! Is it so wrong that I wanted to add a few more programs? Do I deserve to be blacklisted? I paid for my phone, I own it, and I'm simply using it in the way I want.

I'll be sad to have to wipe the memory before I take it in for service if that ever becomes necessary... In my experience most cell phones don't last forever, and highly complex ones are even more delicate, so it's probably just matter of time for us all.

gkarris
Sep 20, 2007, 04:35 PM
Well, Apple wanted to get into the mobile phone business...

So many questions, so little answers...

What about laws saying you must unlock the phone? Steve is going against this.

Also, what about, say, a German user on T-Mobile moves to the UK and just does a change of address, where there is T-Mobile but the iPhone provider is O2? His iTunes account sees him as now a UK customer, but his iPhone is on T-Mobile, not O2. I guess it'll see that it was legally activated, but what's to stop Germans to selling to T-Mobile users in the UK?

Apple will have to figure all this out. I guess they're too busy right now with the newer iPhone and Touch screen issues...

Twinkie
Sep 20, 2007, 04:39 PM
That's why I said "not exactly" :)Oh, I know.

I was just saying that in car terms, bringing the Magnusson-Moss Act is kind of like demanding that Ford fixes your car after you've been using Everclear instead of gasoline :)


I am constantly amazed at the way the people on this forum are so strongly (even angrily?) against things like hacking the iPhone!I think people are railing more against the whining than anything else.

"I took a pee on Apple's warranty terms, and they had the cajones to tell me I'm not covered under their warranty!!1! WELL GUYS, LOOKS LIKE APPLE'S SCREWING US AGAIN! I'm getting on the phone with my lawyer, and the BBB, and the Attorney General's office, and I'm sending a very harshly-worded e-mail to steve@mac.com :mad:"

thejadedmonkey
Sep 20, 2007, 04:43 PM
Makes sense to me.

If you've got a bunch of dead pixels, or the backlight's gone sour, it doesn't make sense at all. That is obviously a hardware issue, and it shouldn't matter if it's hacked or if you're running Linux or even Windows 3.1 on the friggin thing, they should fix it.

Would you be OK if Apple refused to service your $3000 Mac Pro because you were running Linux on it? I see no difference..

Twinkie
Sep 20, 2007, 04:50 PM
Would you be OK if Apple refused to service your $3000 Mac Pro because you were running Linux on it? I see no difference..Actually, Dell, IBM, and HP will do just that on servers that cost exponentially more money, if you run "unsupported" operating systems.

NightStorm
Sep 20, 2007, 04:55 PM
I am constantly amazed at the way the people on this forum are so strongly (even angrily?) against things like hacking the iPhone! It almost sounds like many of you have gone beyond making a personal judgement call to not unlock your phone, and now you actually are mad at the immorality of people who make the alternative choice.

I agree that you would have to be pretty dumb to take a tmobile sim into an apple store and expect them to help you, but come on! Don't say "Good for Apple for catching him!" Is the problem that you are jealous of the benefits you aren't getting by following the rules? For God's sake who cares?

My iPhone has an eBook reader, a full NES emulator, flashcards I study with, Tetris, pseudo-GPS, and an upgraded calculator --and I've only been using it a week! Is it so wrong that I wanted to add a few more programs? Do I deserve to be blacklisted? I paid for my phone, I own it, and I'm simply using it in the way I want.

I'll be sad to have to wipe the memory before I take it in for service if that ever becomes necessary... In my experience most cell phones don't last forever, and highly complex ones are even more delicate, so it's probably just matter of time for us all.
I'm not against hacking at all... I'm just tired of all the whining and sense of "entitlement" that people seem to have. Bottom line, if you use the iPhone (or any product for that matter) outside of manufacturer specs, you shouldn't get upset if it breaks and they won't help you.

mac 2005
Sep 20, 2007, 05:13 PM
No, I don't care to invest money in this prediction. My point is that while the world as a whole is moving toward more open systems that allow consumers choice and freedom, Apple is moving toward an ever-more closed system that dictates how people should use their products. They want to completely lock people up in the system and people don't want to be locked up. This is not only related to the iphone, but also other products Apple makes (ipods, some of its software etc). When going against the overwhelming trend of consumers throughout the world, I do think Apple will have to pay a price. I do think that Apple's general arrogance is detrimental to its growth and while they may get away with it for a while in the U.S., I don't think other markets will be as easy.

I think the argument overstates things quite a bit. One doesn't need an iPhone to have cellphone service. There are plenty of other competitive products on the market at all of the major providers. There also are "exclusive" agreements between the device makers and the service providers, so this deal is anything but unique. If you like a certain device, at some point, you need to go with the carrier who offers it.

Cybergypsy
Sep 20, 2007, 05:19 PM
If you want to hack i am all for it BUT if you cant restore it or have issues,, why should Apple have to service it.....find the hacker for help :)

daneoni
Sep 20, 2007, 05:59 PM
I am constantly amazed at the way the people on this forum are so strongly (even angrily?) against things like hacking the iPhone! It almost sounds like many of you have gone beyond making a personal judgement call to not unlock your phone, and now you actually are mad at the immorality of people who make the alternative choice.



Yeah i don't get it either.

MacAerfen
Sep 20, 2007, 06:05 PM
If you hack your iPhone and Apple blacklists your phone I say good for Apple because you need a reality check. The world does not revolve around you and thinking companies should suck up the cost of you doing what you want is absurd. You can claim "oh but its just a software hack!" all you want. The point is you modified a piece of equipment out of its original specs. The iPhone is not just a physical device, its a software and hardware item. Changing one part of it is just as risky as another. Take a look at Sony's PSP. People mod the @#!@ out of it. If it bricks because they put the wrong software on it, Sony won't fix it, why should they? You bought something that had a very specific advertised function and decided you wanted to use it for something else. That means you do not deserve to have it fixed. Its the chance you take by modding it. You don't like those chances, sign yourself up for AT&T and shut up already.

It would be like buying a kite and deciding to use it as a hang glider and then suing the manufacturer because it wouldn't support your weight and it ripped and they told you to take a hike when you asked them to fix it. I mean after all you bought it, you should be able to do what you want with it.
How about software mods that allow you to overclock your CPU in a windows PC. You did not change the hardware but you made it operate in a way thats different. Is the CPU vendor not entitled to tell you where to shove your useless processor?

Those examples sound stupid you say? They are no different than people who have hacked their iPhone and complain if Apple says too bad when it comes time to fixing it. Even the hacking guides will say "we take no responsibility if this kills your product, you have been warned.". Why then is it a surprise that the company that makes it has the same response?

Oh and for doubters: (following from the iPhone Software end user license agreement, the bolded parts are to point the important areas out.)

IMPORTANT: BY USING YOUR iPHONE, YOU ARE AGREEING TO BE BOUND BY THE FOLLOWING APPLE AND THIRD PARTY TERMS:-
A. APPLE iPHONE SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT
B. APPLE iTUNES STORE TERMS OF SERVICE
C. GOOGLE MAPS TERMS AND CONDITIONS
D. YOUTUBE TERMS AND CONDITIONS
E. NOTICES FROM APPLE

1. General The software (including Boot ROM code and other embedded software), documentation and any fonts that came with your iPhone, whether in read only memory, on any other media or in any other form (collectively the "iPhone Software") are licensed, not sold, to you by Apple Inc. ("Apple") for use only under the terms of this License, and Apple
reserves all rights not expressly granted to you. The rights granted herein are limited to Apple's intellectual property rights in the iPhone Software and do not include any other patents or intellectual property rights. You own the media on which the iPhone Software is recorded but Apple and/or Apple's licensor(s) retain ownership of the iPhone Software itself.

2. Permitted License Uses and Restrictions
(a) This License allows you to use the iPhone Software on a single Apple-labeled iPhone. This License does not allow the iPhone Software to exist on more than one Apple-labeled iPhone at a time, and you may not make the iPhone Software available over a network where it could be used by multiple devices at the same time. This License does not grant you any rights to use Apple proprietary interfaces and other intellectual property in the design, development, manufacture, licensing or distribution of third party devices and accessories for use with the iPhone. Some of those rights are available under a separate license from Apple. For more information, please email madeforipod@apple.com.
(b) With respect to updates to the iPhone Software that Apple may make available for download (“iPhone Software Updates”), this License allows you to download the iPhone Software Updates to update the software on any iPhone that you own or control. This License does not allow you to update iPhones that you do not control or own, and you may not make the iPhone Software Updates available over a network where it could be used by multiple devices or multiple computers at the same time. You may make one copy of the iPhone Software Updates stored on your computer in machine-readable form for backup purposes only; provided that the backup copy must include all copyright or other proprietary notices contained on the original.
(c) Except as and only to the extent permitted by applicable law, or by licensing terms governing use of open-sourced components included with the iPhone Software, you may not copy, decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble, attempt to derive the source code of, modify, or create derivative works of the iPhone Software, iPhone Software Updates, or any part thereof. Any attempt to do so is a violation of the rights of Apple and its licensors of the iPhone Software and iPhone Software Updates. If you breach this restriction, you may be subject to prosecution and damages. By storing content on your iPhone you are making a digital copy. In some jurisdictions, it is unlawful to make digital copies without prior permission from the rightholder. The iPhone Software and iPhone Software Updates may be used to reproduce materials so long as such use is limited to reproduction of noncopyrighted materials, materials in which you own the copyright, or materials you are authorized or legally permitted to reproduce. THE iPHONE SOFTWARE AND iPHONE SOFTWARE UPDATES ARE NOT INTENDED FOR USE IN THE OPERATION OF NUCLEAR FACILITIES, AIRCRAFT NAVIGATION OR COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS, AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL SYSTEMS, LIFE SUPPORT MACHINES OR OTHER EQUIPMENT IN WHICH THE FAILURE OF THE iPHONE SOFTWARE OR iPHONE SOFTWARE UPDATES COULD LEAD TO DEATH, PERSONAL INJURY, OR SEVERE PHYSICAL OR ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE.

And why is it people are upset with iPhone hackers? Because instead of working towards making better products, developing new software and hardware for people to use. Apple has to spend time trying to protect its products from people that think they should be changing it. A lot of people are tired of seeing companies like Apple have to waste resources and money trying to fix problems or covering the costs of peoples own stupidity and their refusal to take responsibility for their own actions. Instead of saying "I took the chance and modded my iPhone and it broke, oh well lesson learned" these modders are saying " I modded my phone and it broke it, Apple should fix it because they didn't design it to handle the software I forced onto it"

Hacking a product is a personal choice. I myself have hacked my PSP for personal reasons. If you want to, and it makes you enjoy your item more thats great. Just do not expect it fixed or complain that the company won't fix it. You make the choice to mod it, have the guts to stand by your choice. And from a troubleshooting standpoint saying but I restored it and so it must be Apple's product, thats not true in that no one knows what operating different software on a product may due to its hardware. Just like changing a setting in the bios of a PC to change the way the processor reads, may cause the processor to wear out faster.

sblasl
Sep 20, 2007, 07:07 PM
This isn't the EU. Apple is an American Corporation. I don't give a rat's a** about what they think US companies should be doing and that includes M$ as much as I hate to say it.

Maybe the iPhone is subsidized by Apple/AT&T. You just are not being charged the "real" amount.

chr1s60
Sep 20, 2007, 07:17 PM
Why should Apple service your phone after you hack it? That means they could potentially lose money by giving you another phone that they should not be responsible for replacing because there was nothing wrong with it until the user messed up the software in it. I have no problem with them blacklisting the phone that was brought in hacked either, I actually think it is a good idea. I have nothing against people hacking their phone, but they should have the common sense to know that it is done at their own risk. It is like saying Apple should replace your phone because you threw it against a wall and it broke... the problem with the phone isn't because of something Apple did to the phone, it is something the user did to the phone that they should not have.

matticus008
Sep 20, 2007, 07:36 PM
If you've got a bunch of dead pixels, or the backlight's gone sour, it doesn't make sense at all. That is obviously a hardware issue, and it shouldn't matter if it's hacked or if you're running Linux or even Windows 3.1 on the friggin thing, they should fix it.
And they would, because that's a simple and obvious condition that can be diagnosed even prior to activation. If you have some functionality problem (say, it won't place calls), however, and it's hacked, there's no clear indication that a hack isn't the cause. It requires troubleshooting and time and effort that no company should have to pursue. They're not responsible for figuring out the interaction of unapproved software with their device. If you're using a product in an unapproved manner, it's pretty difficult to show that you have a hardware issue conclusively unless you can demonstrate that when used as approved, the problem still exists.

In order to demonstrate that, you'd have to be an AT&T iPhone customer running stock firmware. If the problem existed in that instance, it would be eligible for service.
Would you be OK if Apple refused to service your $3000 Mac Pro because you were running Linux on it? I see no difference..
There's a huge difference. You didn't put an alternate OS on a hardware platform. You modified an existing platform at a sufficiently low level as to affect device operations and have no way of demonstrating a hardware problem outside of physical construction and screen issues.

Anonymous Freak
Sep 20, 2007, 07:46 PM
I'm just trying to find out how Apple will handle these things if the phone is presented to them locked with the activation screen on it? That is, without any evidence of unlocking at all, just a description of the problem and the customer's statement that there is what appears to be a hardware problem and that they restored the phone to the original factory settings before coming to the apple store, but did not re-activate it. I fully understand what you're saying, and that if unlocked and the unlocking has caused a problem, the customer will be responsible for repairs. But Apple hardware fails too and it may not be at all related to the software unlock.

I have ATT myself, but the old pre-cingular ATT. MY plan is great and I don't want to get a lesser plan just to be 'legit' with the iphone. And, as I understand it, I can't add the iphone data plan to this old service.

The only problem is that in order to do any troubleshooting, they will ask for the AT&T phone number to reactivate it with. If that line no longer exists, activation will fail. And I doubt Apple would continue to troubleshoot, they would figure out that something was wrong. (Hrm, I'm going to have to double check the warranty terms to see if a valid warranty requires active AT&T service, or just activated AT&T service. (Or any at all. I mean, if you do a fake activation, and never activate with AT&T at all, I wonder what they would do if you brought it to them unactivated.)

Actually, Dell, IBM, and HP will do just that on servers that cost exponentially more money, if you run "unsupported" operating systems.

There have been many news stories like this. OEMs refuse to service obvious HARDWARE problems because the end user installed Linux.

decadentdave
Sep 20, 2007, 07:52 PM
I hacked my iphone and then the battery overheated and wouldn't hold a charge and there was no way I could do a restore. They just swapped mine out and gave me another one. Took it home and the first thing I did was hack it again.

CiscoGuru&aMac
Sep 20, 2007, 08:33 PM
Any person that would bring a hacked iPhone into the Apple store for a refund deserves to be slapped.

Poor bloak must have been dropped on his head too many times as a child.

I hacked my iphone and then the battery overheated and wouldn't hold a charge and there was no way I could do a restore. They just swapped mine out and gave me another one. Took it home and the first thing I did was hack it again.

Your case is an exception. You have been pardoned ;)

Anyone who knowingly brings in an iphone that is hacked and that could have did a restore and doesn't is an ID10T.

calvy
Sep 20, 2007, 08:58 PM
There have been many news stories like this. OEMs refuse to service obvious HARDWARE problems because the end user installed Linux.

Interesting. Where I work, we buy servers from all three of those vendors specifically to run Linux on. I guess they don't want you running linux on it when they sold it to you with a Windows support contract.

La Porta
Sep 20, 2007, 09:19 PM
That's like buying a car, modding out the engine, and then taking it in for warranty service because you are having engine performance problems. No company is going to pay for that!

Canuck4
Sep 20, 2007, 09:26 PM
This should common sense.
You're bringing in a hacked phone with all kinds of software and icons they're not familiar with and even a network they dont support. And you expect them to fix it?
Who knows what kinda software job you did on it.
You got a problem with it just restore it and bring it in like that IMO.

Canuck4
Sep 20, 2007, 09:27 PM
Lol :D
Yep, sorry I just got this Civic but I put in a turbo and 2 NOS bottles and now the engine and transmission are messed up.
Im still covered under warranty right? :D

That's like buying a car, modding out the engine, and then taking it in for warranty service because you are having engine performance problems. No company is going to pay for that!

synth3tik
Sep 20, 2007, 09:35 PM
of course Apple would refuse to repair a hacked phone, who would have thought differently about that. You replace parts on your computer Apple will not fix it. You install OS X on your Dell Apple will not fix it.

itsaka
Sep 20, 2007, 09:48 PM
That's why I do not hack OS X or anyother Mac product. Hacking something to think that you are actually making it better is such a PC mindset.

Really? What Windows hacks are there? Seems to be more along the lines of Unix/Linux users modifying what they can cause, well, you just can. I haven't heard of any kind of Windows "hacks." I could be wrong.

Rot'nApple
Sep 20, 2007, 09:53 PM
Yes, but it clearly says that the warranty does not cover DAMAGE if it is the result of the item being used wrongly. What if it is not? What if it is the result of Apple's hardware failing?

What hardware failing would that be? The iPhone not being able to handle third party hacking software to unlock it so a different carrier's SIM card can work?

If your phone was never hacked to be unlocked and your sim card was nothing but at&t, then by all means have apple look at your phone.

If your phone is acting up because you hacked via software to unlock and put a non at&t sim card to operate on a different cell carriers network, then maybe restore to default iPhone settings and put in an at&t sim card. If problem doesn't persist and you go back to unlock and a different sim card and the problem reoccurs, then you might have to confess to Apple when taking a look or find an outside 3rd party source that repairs iPhones, that is, if Apple blacklists those that alter Apple's and AT&T's partnership... or as Steve Jobs would say, you are the "philanderer" of the Apple & AT&T "marriage" (see comments from Steve regarding Apple and the UK O2 partnership er marriage - http://crave.cnet.co.uk/video/0,139101587,49292859,00.htm ) cuz your messing around with an "ex-girlfriend". This is getting too soap opery for me... or sounds like a bad "Reba" episode.

Anyway, if you are having problems, good luck with resolving them!

Tochee
Sep 20, 2007, 10:24 PM
They may refuse to service or replace your phone under warranty, they may offer to restore your phone for you (after warning that you'll lose all data and will have to re-sync at home) but there is no such thing as black listing.

EricHvk
Sep 20, 2007, 11:06 PM
If the little punk brought it in to be serviced and didn't think anything of the fact that the iPhone was hacked, he is barely functionally retarded.

If the turd brought it in thinking he was going to be thought of as "cool" for unlocking his iPhone, he is beyond retarded.

Why hack the iPhone? There really isn't that much you can do that is THAT great with the different apps. The only one that peaks my interest is the "GPS" off of cell towers that weas released yesterday. But you know what? I refuse to hack my lovely iPhone to use that. I am one of the sheep in that if Apple thinks I need it they will give it to me and only when I am ready for it.

That's why I do not hack OS X or anyother Mac product. Hacking something to think that you are actually making it better is such a PC mindset.

umm I know alot of people that including myself that have hacked the iphone for good reasons.

number one. switching from t-mobile to att with cancelation iphone and activation fees for a family plan would have cost me 1200$

number two is that there are good apps. send files, the finder read write access rearranging your springboard. changing app icons. people like to customize the look apple should atleast respect that.

I can understand if you buy the phone and use it with t-mobile that is kinda ripping them off alittle att and apple both are losing money in there plot but people who have att and hack the phone for apps ring tones etc its there phone do with it what they want. Me i just wanted the sickest phone and i had t-mobile and unwilling to shell out the cash to switch. wow i hacked it apple sold me an iphone that they normally would not have sold. they made a profit.

klimegreen
Sep 20, 2007, 11:24 PM
Its hard to believe that Apple would blacklist a phone. Obviously they can do this. But business wise it makes no sense (unless it was deemed stolen). And practically speaking they'd have to send this info over to AT&T to prohibit activation... or are they saying iTunes will reject it. Just hard to believe. Anyone know if this is TRUE?

-
klime aka Sammy
iPhone (http://personafile.com/Apple-iPhone-8GB-P885909100178.htm)

Mgkwho
Sep 20, 2007, 11:48 PM
Obviously he voided his warranty. No one should be complaining.

-=|Mgkwho

Anonymous Freak
Sep 21, 2007, 12:25 AM
Interesting. Where I work, we buy servers from all three of those vendors specifically to run Linux on. I guess they don't want you running linux on it when they sold it to you with a Windows support contract.

I was actually talking about desktops and laptops. Sorry I didn't specifically clarify that my comment was separate from the person who was talking about servers. And most manufacturers seem to have gotten it figured out by now that hardware problems are not caused by Linux. (Dell was notorious a couple years ago for refusing to warranty repair laptops that had Linux installed.)

JohnMcKee
Sep 21, 2007, 12:29 AM
If you've got a bunch of dead pixels, or the backlight's gone sour, it doesn't make sense at all. That is obviously a hardware issue, and it shouldn't matter if it's hacked or if you're running Linux or even Windows 3.1 on the friggin thing, they should fix it.

Would you be OK if Apple refused to service your $3000 Mac Pro because you were running Linux on it? I see no difference..

Unlocking an iPhone is not the same thing as running a different operating system, to unlock it they have to modify the software on a separate chip and subsystem that was never designed to be modified by the end user, only Apple was ever intended to modify that chip and only with extensive testing, thats why unlocking took so much more time than figuring out how to install software.

A better example is if you flashed the firmware on your Mac Pro with an update un-approved by Apple and then complained about hardware problems

emegmac
Sep 21, 2007, 02:24 AM
That's like buying a car, modding out the engine, and then taking it in for warranty service because you are having engine performance problems. No company is going to pay for that!

What if the problem is not with the engine but with the power seats or sunroof. Then it is covered. I own a new mustang I have done tons of mods to make it go fast but when the radio went out I took it in and Ford serviced it because I never done anything to disrupt its service it just stopped working.

If my iphone running on tmobile screen goes out dang right I have the right to get it fixed. If the os gets locked up I am to blame and I accept that.

GavinTing
Sep 21, 2007, 02:34 AM
Sounds like what steve meant by passively stopping these modifications

ghall
Sep 21, 2007, 08:36 AM
of course Apple would refuse to repair a hacked phone, who would have thought differently about that. You replace parts on your computer Apple will not fix it. You install OS X on your Dell Apple will not fix it.

I don't know about that. A few months ago I flat out told Apple that I had replaced the hard drive in my MBP, and they were like "whatever", and fixed my MacBook Pro no questions asked.

diamond.g
Sep 21, 2007, 09:06 AM
Slightly OT:

If AT&T started subsidizing the iPhone (say down to 199) would Apple have any recourse against them? I mean the 399 price is only a MSRP. Show why couldn't AT&T just lower the price to bargin bin levels? They already have to give Apple the full 399 anyways might as well try to sell as many (and get the 2 yr contracts) as they can. Have people activate in the store. Is the iPhone locked to the particular computer you activate it from, or the iTunes account used?

overcast
Sep 21, 2007, 09:18 AM
What if the problem is not with the engine but with the power seats or sunroof. Then it is covered. I own a new mustang I have done tons of mods to make it go fast but when the radio went out I took it in and Ford serviced it because I never done anything to disrupt its service it just stopped working.

If my iphone running on tmobile screen goes out dang right I have the right to get it fixed. If the os gets locked up I am to blame and I accept that.
How do they know that? You tooling around with the electrical system in the engine can CERTAINLY cause things like your radio to stop working.

megfilmworks
Sep 21, 2007, 09:26 AM
What if the problem is not with the engine but with the power seats or sunroof. Then it is covered. I own a new mustang I have done tons of mods to make it go fast but when the radio went out I took it in and Ford serviced it because I never done anything to disrupt its service it just stopped working.

If my iphone running on tmobile screen goes out dang right I have the right to get it fixed. If the os gets locked up I am to blame and I accept that.

Hopefully you don't have Onstar, they may turn off your engine!:D

diamond.g
Sep 21, 2007, 10:17 AM
Hopefully you don't have Onstar, they may turn off your engine!:D

Note: Onstar != Ford, Onstar = GM.

logandzwon
Sep 21, 2007, 11:01 AM
Gosh, wow. A lot of you are WAAAAY off something here.

As to legality of unlocking, engadget actually had their lawyer right about this; http://www.engadget.com/2007/08/24/know-your-rights-is-it-illegal-to-unlock-my-iphone/
(summary, unlocking your own phone for personal use is legal)

As far as warranty, research the Magnuson Moss act. (In short, modifying anything does not void your warranty, except for those things you modified.)

Now, in practice this all gets a little convoluted. If you modify the firmware on your radio and unlock the phone then the screen goes out should you be covered?
-yes.

But what is it's the radio that goes out? Well, radio firmware is rewritable. And if the unlocking procedure changes the settings in the firmware to the correct unlocked settings, (opposed to adding code to to by-pass the locking code of the firmware.)
-Theoretically, you should be covered.

However, in practice you would mostly be denied repair. The other thing that comes into play is, businesses sometimes look at the cost of replacement vs your cost of suing over it. It would me a lot more to higher a lawyer then just buying another one.

dadsp33k
Sep 21, 2007, 11:18 AM
Kudos to Apple. They are a business and they are here to make money. If they make some people pissed off, oh well, that's business! Again, kudos to Apple! :apple:

we did get a decent rebate...

SiliconAddict
Sep 21, 2007, 12:23 PM
And this is why I will never own an iPhone. Its one thing if you are hacking the hardware. This? This is just retarded.

SiliconAddict
Sep 21, 2007, 12:24 PM
we did get a decent rebate...

You didn't get a rebate. You got a coupon.

mdntcallr
Sep 21, 2007, 12:32 PM
I really hope this is only if people hack their iphone for service.

NOT... if they use a hack to add extra programs ie pimping out your iphone with Apptap.

that apple limits people to web safari type apps is unacceptable. they need to have a certification program to allow developers access to create programs for the iphone.

If you need to know how to hack your iphone, easily and keep it easy... goto

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/iphone/pimp-your-iphone-for-iphone-users-who-arent-fanboys-300854.php?autoplay=true

robbyx
Sep 21, 2007, 01:21 PM
Yeah kudos to Apple! Their current direction is doomed to failure. The might be able to make a few bucks before they're eventually stopped by consumer rights laws (most likely in the EU, rather than here) , but it's just a matter of time...

The new Microsoft? Yes...

Doomed to failure? You must be joking. Apple is nothing like Microsoft. Sure, they both want to make money, but Microsoft licenses its crap to anyone and everyone, thus resulting in an inconsistent (at best) and often problematic user experience. Apple's approach is single source. You get everything from them - and, therefore, it just works.

I've been an Apple customer for 25 years and I'm very happy with their strategy. I never feel like I'm missing out on anything. I'm never wasting a weekend troubleshooting, nor am I dealing with incompatibilities and inconsistencies. If you don't like Apple's approach, buy from someone else. It's that simple. I'm sick and tired of other people (ie: consumer groups) thinking they know what is best for me. I have a choice: Apple or anyone else out there making phones, PCs, portable media players, etc. I willingly choose Apple's closed system because it's the BEST one.

Look at the Microsoft anti-trust trial. What did it accomplish? NOTHING. Why is Apple growing and prospering? Not because the government intervened and forced M$ to play nice. Nope. It's because Apple is delivering better products. That's the key to competition. Lawsuits and government intervention should be absolute last resorts.

minik
Sep 21, 2007, 02:50 PM
Of course. Why would Apple offer support for those who messed with their iPhones?

That's a given IMHO.

You're on your own...unlocked iPhone users.

Canuck4
Sep 21, 2007, 03:31 PM
Yeah, good luck with that.


What if the problem is not with the engine but with the power seats or sunroof. Then it is covered. I own a new mustang I have done tons of mods to make it go fast but when the radio went out I took it in and Ford serviced it because I never done anything to disrupt its service it just stopped working.

If my iphone running on tmobile screen goes out dang right I have the right to get it fixed. If the os gets locked up I am to blame and I accept that.

stockcerts
Sep 21, 2007, 04:37 PM
No, I don't care to invest money in this prediction. My point is that while the world as a whole is moving toward more open systems that allow consumers choice and freedom, Apple is moving toward an ever-more closed system that dictates how people should use their products. They want to completely lock people up in the system and people don't want to be locked up. This is not only related to the iphone, but also other products Apple makes (ipods, some of its software etc). When going against the overwhelming trend of consumers throughout the world, I do think Apple will have to pay a price. I do think that Apple's general arrogance is detrimental to its growth and while they may get away with it for a while in the U.S., I don't think other markets will be as easy.

Just wondering why you buy Apple products? I don't blame Apple for not supporting a product if someone has altered it. If you don't like the business model for this product or others, don't buy them. Seems hypocritical that you would....makes no sense. I'm wondering if PDE is bitter because he hacked his phone, or possibly constipation.

plumbingandtech
Sep 21, 2007, 04:47 PM
. My point is that while the world as a whole is moving toward more open systems that allow consumers choice and freedom, Apple is moving toward an ever-more closed system that dictates how people should use their products. They want to completely lock people up in the system and people don't want to be locked up.

And it makes them better products. With better user experiences.

Nahhh couldn't be because they want to make the best products in the world. And to do so means controling the whole widget..

Nahhhhh....Must be because APPLE is EVUL!! EVULLLLL!!!

You have the choice of not buying them. Run linux on something.. I'm surrrreee it will be the same experience.

/snark

MacAerfen
Sep 21, 2007, 06:17 PM
What if the problem is not with the engine but with the power seats or sunroof. Then it is covered. I own a new mustang I have done tons of mods to make it go fast but when the radio went out I took it in and Ford serviced it because I never done anything to disrupt its service it just stopped working.

If my iphone running on tmobile screen goes out dang right I have the right to get it fixed. If the os gets locked up I am to blame and I accept that.

First off the Radio is a part that is easily replaceable and not connected other than by power. If while servicing the radio they noticed that you put the wrong power connection in for your your power sunroof and that caused wrong power to go to radio, they most likely would have handed you a bill for the service or told you "thats tough but we will not fix it".

What people seem to be failing to understand is that the iPhone is not designed for people to modify it. Unlike a car or a computer, there is no official parts for it. You can buy a new hard drive for your mac book pro and as long as you don't muck up the installation it won't void the warranty because technically the hardware is designed to handle a specific type of drive so any drive of X type should work. Now if that part causes a problem then no Apple won't cover the part or what it broke. But if you send it in because your processor is messed up and in testing there is nothing showing the hard drive had anything to do with it Apple will happily fix it for you. The iPhone is not designed to be used with different software. So if you use different software it does not matter what the problem is, you were using the phone for however long in a manner other than what it was intended to be used as.

People may very well feel that the modified software does not have anything to do with the screen but at this point noone knows the long term effect on the hardware of the iPhone by running software thats not supposed to be on it. So whether you modify it to go on another network, or to use programs that are not written for it, you are using the phone in a manner not outlined in its usage guide. As such Apple is well within their rights to say take a hike when it comes to asking them to fix it. They do not have to spend the money examining the product to determine if its malfunction is due to wrong software. We are not talking about using a different piece of hardware in place of the original we are talking about directly modifying an existing component. And when it comes to a proprietary device its a lot different than simply using a different brand of device. Apple didn't design S-ATA hard drives they simply use them in the computer. Thats why using a different brand of S-ATA hard drive doesn't automatically void the warranty because the system is designed to handle what you did.

And for those that keep bragging about how they got something fixed that they modified. First off you are the exception to the rule and got very lucky. You should just be happy you got it covered and stop bragging like that somehow entitles you to future support. Apple may not be taking the Sony approach and making new patches every two weeks to try and break the hacks, but that doesn't mean they are going to eat the bill for your messing around with it. I like having my PSP hacked which is why I did it. But if something goes wrong with it, I know I am going to have to go buy a new one. Thats the risk I took when I decided to hack the device. And if I have to go buy a new one, I will probably hack that one too because thats the way I like the product. Thats not the companies problem though. Its my choice to use it that way and my responsibility if anything goes wrong. I didn't have to buy the PSP when it didn't do what I wanted it to and the company is not responsible to make it do everything I want. Apple does not have to allow third party software devs to make software. Maybe some day down the road they will but for now I know the limitation of the device and if I want a fully warranty covered item I will have to accept those limitations or find another product that does what I want.

PDE
Sep 21, 2007, 06:42 PM
Just wondering why you buy Apple products? I don't blame Apple for not supporting a product if someone has altered it. If you don't like the business model for this product or others, don't buy them. Seems hypocritical that you would....makes no sense. I'm wondering if PDE is bitter because he hacked his phone, or possibly constipation.

Things aren't black and white, you know. And, besides, the choices are limited. I've been a happy mac owner since 1992 and I've been through Apple's ups and downs, often doubting their choices but always feeling that I prefer Apple to the competion - not hardware wise, but in terms of software. Recently, as in the last few years, Apple has been very successful and, as it becomes increasingly successful, it is becoming more and more like the companies it always criticised. The fact that it partnered with ATT, Starbucks and Pepsi says a lot.

So, I love my mac, OS X and what it allows me to do with little complication and with elegance that is unrivalled. I deal with the poor quality control of its hardware because the software is good when the hardware allows it (which it is doing now in my case). The iphone is a really nice phone, but it also has many limitations. It has lots of potential to be the greatest multi-function phone/music/video thing around, but there's no way I'm going to spend thousands of dollars on roaming fees because I can't put a local sim in it - nor can I ask of my friends abroad to call a U.S. number each time they want to reach me. I will also not bring another phone for my travels because that would be defeating the purpose of the device. So, I'm perfectly happy to have set it free with an innocent unlock. IF, the iphone develops a HARDWARE problem (screen stops working, no RF signal, battery doesn't charge or whatever), I'll restore it and if the problem is still there I think Apple should fix it under warranty. Period. I'm an ATT customer with a sim card from the old ATT before it became Cingular. I have a GREAT family plan and one that ATT will not match today. If they would allow me to have the plan I have today and simply add the data plan for the iphone, I'd go with that. BUT I'd still unlock it when I travel.

What I criticise apple for is locking things down like this when everybody (outside the US, that is) is travelling all over the place, moving between countries etc. Even those who sign up for a two-year contract might need to move, or travel to an area where ATT roaming doesn't work well (a lot of places!) - what about them? I don't mind if Apple makes a closed system - and I know that this is the reason I like their products generally - but I don't like the way they are greedily undermining their customers' convenience and choice with regard to the iphone. SIM locking has nothing to do with keeping the Iphone operating system's integrity.

I'm not bitter at all, except that I feel that the people who are criticising those who have other needs and thus unlocking the phone are full of it. My bowel movement is also perfectly fine.

twoodcc
Sep 21, 2007, 07:35 PM
Is this even slightly surprising to anyone?

Not me.

not me either

PDE
Sep 22, 2007, 07:53 AM
Don't know how trustworthy this source is, but :

http://www.informationweek.com/software/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=2MMN1IY510JT4QSNDLPCKHSCJUNN2JVN?articleID=202100187

hondaboy945
Sep 22, 2007, 02:34 PM
No, I don't care to invest money in this prediction. My point is that while the world as a whole is moving toward more open systems that allow consumers choice and freedom, Apple is moving toward an ever-more closed system that dictates how people should use their products. They want to completely lock people up in the system and people don't want to be locked up. This is not only related to the iphone, but also other products Apple makes (ipods, some of its software etc). When going against the overwhelming trend of consumers throughout the world, I do think Apple will have to pay a price. I do think that Apple's general arrogance is detrimental to its growth and while they may get away with it for a while in the U.S., I don't think other markets will be as easy.

I have to agree. I am a Apple fan and user, but I would like to use the product that I paid quite a bit of money for, in any manner that I see fit. I do find it troubling that you can buy any other SIM based phone and use it on any network you choose, but NOT THE IPHONE. I am not saying that Apple is wrong, I am just saying " Why can't I use T-Mobile in the USA if other parts of the world are going to have T-Mobile?" Now, I know we are all entitled to each others opinions (haha), so go ahead and grill me, but I still agree with the quote. However I do not think that they are as doomed as people think.

Oh, and one last thing " Apple, if you are reading this; can we please have the ability to put a couple of 8800GTX video cards in our Mac Pros. Thank you Apple."

NightStorm
Sep 22, 2007, 04:36 PM
I have to agree. I am a Apple fan and user, but I would like to use the product that I paid quite a bit of money for, in any manner that I see fit. I do find it troubling that you can buy any other SIM based phone and use it on any network you choose, but NOT THE IPHONE. I am not saying that Apple is wrong, I am just saying " Why can't I use T-Mobile in the USA if other parts of the world are going to have T-Mobile?" Now, I know we are all entitled to each others opinions (haha), so go ahead and grill me, but I still agree with the quote. However I do not think that they are as doomed as people think.

Oh, and one last thing " Apple, if you are reading this; can we please have the ability to put a couple of 8800GTX video cards in our Mac Pros. Thank you Apple."
Because T-Mobile didn't agree to allow Apple to put services on their network to allow functionality like visual voicemail, and instead of trying to field all the complaints about why this feature wasn't available to one person when it worked on their friends iPhone (who happened to use AT&T), they decided to go with a carrier who was open to working with them.

mactogo
Sep 24, 2007, 08:59 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

ZDNet's Apple Core blog (http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=882) notes that if you've hacked your iPhone, you may want to restore to defaults before bringing it into an Apple Store for service.

A colleague of O'Grady's was initially refused service for his iPhone due to a combination of 3rd party applications and an unlocked iPhone (on T-Mobile).


Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/iphone/2007/09/20/apple-refusing-service-on-hacked-iphones/)


im glad :apple: