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MacRumors
Sep 25, 2007, 10:16 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

TUAW publishes (http://www.tuaw.com/2007/09/25/iphone-dev-team-issues-statement/) a statement from the iPhone Dev Team who promise to release a relocking tool next week:
We will provide you with a tool in the next week which will be able to recover your nck counter and seczones and even enables you to restore your phone to a Factory-like state.
If they are able to restore to a "Factory-like" state, then relocked iPhones should be able to undergo future iPhone updates without risk.

The previously published (http://www.macrumors.com/iphone/2007/09/24/relocking-your-iphone/) relocking guide does not appear to work at this time. Since the state of these tools remain in flux, I'd recommend anyone with an unlocked iPhone to simply wait for futher testing before proceeding.


Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/iphone/2007/09/25/sim-relocking-tool-to-come/)



Spanners
Sep 25, 2007, 10:20 AM
You've got to love those guys

/Strokes his Unlocked iPhone lovingly - It's alright my precious. You're safe now....

mainstreetmark
Sep 25, 2007, 11:04 AM
I wonder if the guys who sold the unlock kit for $100 have thought to sell the relock kit for another $100. That's just good business right there.

carfac
Sep 25, 2007, 11:19 AM
Why do the hackers have to do this? I applaud them for doing this, it is a responsible thing to do, but I would also think it would be something Apple might do, too.

I would think that Apple has the goal of getting the unlocked phones back to locked status- that is what their warning was all about. I would think it would be in Apple's interest to make a relocking tool that everyone would view as "safe". And it probably would not be too hard for them to do.

I am not saying that Apple has to, or I insist they do, or that I have a "right" to an Apple relocking tool. Nothing of the sort. I AM saying that is Apple was really so caring and concerned about this, it would be in their self interest to release a relock, and it would take little to no effort on their part.

alljunks
Sep 25, 2007, 11:19 AM
just dont upgrade new firmware!!!!

cal6n
Sep 25, 2007, 11:30 AM
just dont upgrade new firmware!!!!

Absolutely! It's hardly rocket science. Just wait a few days for the "open edition"* of the new firmware.


* expression borrowed from the PSP community.

Skystar
Sep 25, 2007, 11:50 AM
just dont upgrade new firmware!!!!

Agreed! Why is this such big news? I walk in to work this morning, and two people ask "Oh did you hear, since your phone is on T-Mobile, it will be diconnected by the end of the week!"

Most people who hacked their iPhone knows that when a new firmware comes out (not just this upcoming one, but the two previous), its best to wait it out until things are confirmed. I don't see how this is any different now. I actually thank Apple for sending out this warning so that people will think twice about updating.

shadowfax
Sep 25, 2007, 12:26 PM
Why do the hackers have to do this? I applaud them for doing this, it is a responsible thing to do, but I would also think it would be something Apple might do, too.

I would think that Apple has the goal of getting the unlocked phones back to locked status- that is what their warning was all about. I would think it would be in Apple's interest to make a relocking tool that everyone would view as "safe". And it probably would not be too hard for them to do.

I am not saying that Apple has to, or I insist they do, or that I have a "right" to an Apple relocking tool. Nothing of the sort. I AM saying that is Apple was really so caring and concerned about this, it would be in their self interest to release a relock, and it would take little to no effort on their part.

Self-preservation dictates that they let someone else relock the phones. There are a number of ways to unlock the iPhone, none of them identical. If Apple releases a relock tool and it bricks someone's phone, they are responsible, or at least they will be seen as responsible. That's obvious enough. The iPhone Dev team will be fine. Anyone crazy enough to unlock their phone with a third party tool (and I don't say that pejoratively, because I would also do that if I needed to not be on AT&T) should be willing to use a third party tool to re-lock it to get future updates.

DMann
Sep 25, 2007, 12:35 PM
Why do the hackers have to do this? I applaud them for doing this, it is a responsible thing to do, but I would also think it would be something Apple might do, too.

I would think that Apple has the goal of getting the unlocked phones back to locked status- that is what their warning was all about. I would think it would be in Apple's interest to make a relocking tool that everyone would view as "safe". And it probably would not be too hard for them to do.

I am not saying that Apple has to, or I insist they do, or that I have a "right" to an Apple relocking tool. Nothing of the sort. I AM saying that is Apple was really so caring and concerned about this, it would be in their self interest to release a relock, and it would take little to no effort on their part.

Agreed. It would be in Apple's best interest to do so.

mainstreetmark
Sep 25, 2007, 12:55 PM
Agreed. It would be in Apple's best interest to do so.

Why should they spend their resources writing tools to fix phones that people are intentionally breaking, and doing so without the blessing of Apple, who clearly, clearly told the world this was an AT&T exclusive.

cal6n
Sep 25, 2007, 01:07 PM
Agreed! Why is this such big news? I walk in to work this morning, and two people ask "Oh did you hear, since your phone is on T-Mobile, it will be diconnected by the end of the week!"

*snip*

Actually, this is what it's about. Both Apple and AT&T know that there's nothing they can do, either legally or technically, to re-lock iPhones without the user's consent. They also know that the hackers and tech-savvy users of the unlock software are also fully aware of this. The only thing that they can do is give out carefully crafted (and completely true) information, worded such that it will mislead and scare off the less technical users that might otherwise be tempted to try an unlock.

I noticed the same semantic tricks being played on Apple's UK website after the O2 launch. A couple of examples:

Question:Can I “unlock” iPhone and use it with another wireless carrier?

Answer:O2 is the exclusive wireless carrier for iPhone in the United Kingdom. If you currently use another wireless carrier, you can choose to transfer your number when you activate your O2 account.

What this implies:No, O2 only.

What this means:We're fudging the issue by talking about wireless rather than telephone providers. You can't use any other wireless providers because O2 are the only ones with EDGE in the UK. We're not saying anything about telephone service providers. See if you can work out why!

Another question: Can I use the SIM card from my current mobile phone?

Answer:You should use the SIM card that came pre-installed in the iPhone.

What this implies:No.

What this means:You can if you know what you're doing.

carfac
Sep 25, 2007, 01:10 PM
Why should they spend their resources writing tools to fix phones that people are intentionally breaking, and doing so without the blessing of Apple, who clearly, clearly told the world this was an AT&T exclusive.

Why? Because they want to get the "unlockers" back into the system. They want the revenue from them. Because they know better than anyone what the baseband firmware should be.

To address someone else's point about a variety of unlock methods- sure, there are a bunch. But there is only ONE official firmware that should be there. OK, I am not an software engineer, nor do I play one on TV. But it seems to this simple-minded person that if Apple had a tool that completely wiped ALL Baseband firmware, and then installed the official, current release, it would not matter what one had previously done- it would be a fresh, official install.

As far as spending resources to do this... what resources? Apple already has written an official firmware. There is not a different one for this version or that (at least not yet). And they already have a way to burn that into firmware. A couple hours- hell, even a day- writing an installer, and all is good in AppleWorld. I do not see that as any great strain on the resources of Apple. If they wanted to.

If I am understanding the process wrong, please correct me!

ddrueckhammer
Sep 25, 2007, 08:12 PM
Why? Because they want to get the "unlockers" back into the system. They want the revenue from them. Because they know better than anyone what the baseband firmware should be.

To address someone else's point about a variety of unlock methods- sure, there are a bunch. But there is only ONE official firmware that should be there. OK, I am not an software engineer, nor do I play one on TV. But it seems to this simple-minded person that if Apple had a tool that completely wiped ALL Baseband firmware, and then installed the official, current release, it would not matter what one had previously done- it would be a fresh, official install.

As far as spending resources to do this... what resources? Apple already has written an official firmware. There is not a different one for this version or that (at least not yet). And they already have a way to burn that into firmware. A couple hours- hell, even a day- writing an installer, and all is good in AppleWorld. I do not see that as any great strain on the resources of Apple. If they wanted to.

If I am understanding the process wrong, please correct me!

I can see them not wanting to release a phone relock program with the baseband firmware because it will make it that much easier for the unlock community to have an official copy of the baseband to work with and that much easier to unlock the phone on future updates. Just a theory...

rjwill246
Sep 25, 2007, 10:09 PM
Actually, this is what it's about. Both Apple and AT&T know that there's nothing they can do, either legally or technically, to re-lock iPhones:

Another mad **********ing Brit. First of all you have NO right to hack the iPhone and no right to violate the EULA. It's that simple. My suggestion--- don't even think about buying this device. You will be getting into an area that is unfamiliar and will cause you lots of complications-- stay away!!!

I have come to detest British input on this issue. You don't yet have the frigging phone and if you did you clearly would not understand its subtlties so let it go and PLEASE don't buy one. Apple doesn't need you, and as an investor, neither do I.

As an Aussie, I am beginning to loathe Brit input.

winterspan
Sep 25, 2007, 10:52 PM
Another mad **********ing Brit. First of all you have NO right to hack the iPhone and no right to violate the EULA. It's that simple. My suggestion--- don't even think about buying this device. You will be getting into an area that is unfamiliar and will cause you lots of complications-- stay away!!!

I have come to detest British input on this issue. You don't yet have the frigging phone and if you did you clearly would not understand its subtlties so let it go and PLEASE don't buy one. Apple doesn't need you, and as an investor, neither do I.

As an Aussie, I am beginning to loathe Brit input.

Oh give it up.. Like everyone in Britain has the exact same perspective on the unlock issue :confused:. And Im sick of rehashing the same argument about the rights/legality issues surround the unlock.

this sentence:
"First of all you have NO right to hack the iPhone "
Is actually entirely wrong, at least in the United States. You have EVERY RIGHT to "hack" any device you own. You even have the right to "unlock" any phone you own too. However, Apple's ability to just go right back and re-lock the phone is technically in a legal gray area, but for now it looks to be legal.
And they can do whatever they want with the firmware upgrades as long as they don't intentionally and maliciously create a situation in which those unlocked phones will be permanently disabled. If they do it by "accident" then there is no consequence.

cal6n
Sep 26, 2007, 02:42 AM
Another mad **********ing Brit. First of all you have NO right to hack the iPhone and no right to violate the EULA. It's that simple. My suggestion--- don't even think about buying this device. You will be getting into an area that is unfamiliar and will cause you lots of complications-- stay away!!!

I have come to detest British input on this issue. You don't yet have the frigging phone and if you did you clearly would not understand its subtlties so let it go and PLEASE don't buy one. Apple doesn't need you, and as an investor, neither do I.

As an Aussie, I am beginning to loathe Brit input.

Where do you get off mis-quoting me, eh?

I said: "WITHOUT THE USER'S CONSENT..."

And over here, an EULA that breaks our laws, as the iPhone one does, is null and void and therefore not legally binding.

Don't bother replying, you're another one on the ignore list...

redgaz26
Sep 26, 2007, 03:53 AM
Lets's call a meeting an all have a big cuddle lol. this a forum for people to express their views on the iphone.
if you have unlocked the phone that's your call, if it all goes pear shaped then you only have yourself to blame.
i am counting down the days to the UK release and although the tarrifs could be better that's the deal offered and that's what I'll pay.
good luck to the unlockers but i'm playing it safe. peace to you all!!!!!

shadowfax
Sep 26, 2007, 10:08 AM
You have EVERY RIGHT to "hack" any device you own. You even have the right to "unlock" any phone you own too. However, Apple's ability to just go right back and re-lock the phone is technically in a legal gray area, but for now it looks to be legal.For clarification, there is no law in the US that gives people the right to wo whatever they want with the products they own. You're not allowed, for example, to circumvent encryption schemes such as those employed by DRM. Even if you own that file, that's illegal. The law that prevents this, the DMCA, allows you to unlock your phone for the sole purpose of using it lawfully on another cellphone carrier.

Apple has no obligation to make software updates available to people who unlock their phones, and they never will. Just like Microsoft has no obligation to people who obtain Windows illegally. Apple is not and will not be responsible for bricking your phone because you tried to run an official update on a hacked phone. There's no gray area here. The update is optional, and won't hurt anyone that doesn't run it.

I think that's perfectly fair, and I'm pleased with how this whole situation is panning out. It'll be 2 weeks or so, I am sure, after 1.1.1 gets into the wild, and then we'll have all the current hacks and unlocks working on it, and everyone with unlocked phones can update all that business.

shadowfax
Sep 26, 2007, 10:11 AM
Another mad **********ing Brit. First of all you have NO right to hack the iPhone and no right to violate the EULA. It's that simple. My suggestion--- don't even think about buying this device. You will be getting into an area that is unfamiliar and will cause you lots of complications-- stay away!!!

I have come to detest British input on this issue. You don't yet have the frigging phone and if you did you clearly would not understand its subtlties so let it go and PLEASE don't buy one. Apple doesn't need you, and as an investor, neither do I.

As an Aussie, I am beginning to loathe Brit input.You know, I thought of saying something unfriendly, or clarifying you, but I think that's all been done. I just want you to know that I really, really got a good laugh out of this post, and that I think you should ask someone how many letters there really are in a 4-letter word like the f-word... ;)

megfilmworks
Sep 26, 2007, 10:36 PM
With the impending update possibly bricking unlocked iPhones, what are you going to do. Vote and coment:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=359966

jt2ga65
Sep 26, 2007, 11:28 PM
For clarification, there is no law in the US that gives people the right to wo whatever they want with the products they own. You're not allowed, for example, to circumvent encryption schemes such as those employed by DRM. Even if you own that file, that's illegal. The law that prevents this, the DMCA, allows you to unlock your phone for the sole purpose of using it lawfully on another cellphone carrier.
I think there is a clarification here. You OWN hardware, and with that hardware you are legally entitled to do whatever you want. That can not even be questioned, and has absolutely nothing to do with DMCA because that does not apply to hardware.

DMCA does, however, cover intellectual property. This means anything that can be covered by a copyright, be that software, music or other content. But, even here there are gray areas. You can, for example, reverse engineer software for academic purposes. You can take sections of software code, written material (i.e. book) and clips of songs and movies to use in illustrating works of your own, like a book, song or movie review, or tutorial on programming. You can not reproduce the entire works for this purpose, however. This is called fair use.

You can also change the media that content is on, and make a backup copy. The key here is that you still have possession of the original media, and your license to use the content is still in place. This is also fair use.

You can not, however, use the intellectual property in it's entirety to make money either by selling copied, or selling admission to a public performance.

But, hardware is completely different.

There are certain governmental regulations that could get you in hot water with modifying SOME hardware. For example, if you purchase a firearm, and attempt to modify it in a manner that would turn it into a "class 3" firearm, you need to have a special permit to do this, and then another one to have possession of said firearm. It's not technically illegal to own such things, just not permitted without the proper paperwork. I assure you that the iPhone does not fall into this category.

-jt2

shadowfax
Sep 27, 2007, 01:28 AM
I think there is a clarification here. You OWN hardware, and with that hardware you are legally entitled to do whatever you want. That can not even be questioned, and has absolutely nothing to do with DMCA because that does not apply to hardware.

DMCA does, however, cover intellectual property. This means anything that can be covered by a copyright, be that software, music or other content. But, even here there are gray areas. You can, for example, reverse engineer software for academic purposes. You can take sections of software code, written material (i.e. book) and clips of songs and movies to use in illustrating works of your own, like a book, song or movie review, or tutorial on programming. You can not reproduce the entire works for this purpose, however. This is called fair use.

You can also change the media that content is on, and make a backup copy. The key here is that you still have possession of the original media, and your license to use the content is still in place. This is also fair use.

You can not, however, use the intellectual property in it's entirety to make money either by selling copied, or selling admission to a public performance.

But, hardware is completely different.

There are certain governmental regulations that could get you in hot water with modifying SOME hardware. For example, if you purchase a firearm, and attempt to modify it in a manner that would turn it into a "class 3" firearm, you need to have a special permit to do this, and then another one to have possession of said firearm. It's not technically illegal to own such things, just not permitted without the proper paperwork. I assure you that the iPhone does not fall into this category.

-jt2

Yet, no one is talking about hardware modification, AFAIK. we're talking about modifying software to run on the iPhone. No one is questioning the legality of you taking apart an iPhone and adding a GPS unit to it, or clearing the phone software and writing your own from scratch. But circumventing security measures to protect intellectual property in the form of a company's software is expressly illegal in the US, with the exception of cell phone unlocking, and some others. And of course the fair use policies you mention. but the last time I checked, unlocking and hacking are both 100% software processes, and the argument that "it's my iPhone, therefore I am allowed to do what I want with the software on it" is bullcrap. you own the hardware, and you license the OS. I have no problem with anyone hacking the phone, and I have certainly hacked mine, but it's sure a software issue, not hardware--hacking Mac OS X has nothing to do with hardware rights.

NicP
Sep 27, 2007, 08:55 AM
Another mad **********ing Brit. First of all you have NO right to hack the iPhone and no right to violate the EULA. It's that simple. My suggestion--- don't even think about buying this device. You will be getting into an area that is unfamiliar and will cause you lots of complications-- stay away!!!

I have come to detest British input on this issue. You don't yet have the frigging phone and if you did you clearly would not understand its subtlties so let it go and PLEASE don't buy one. Apple doesn't need you, and as an investor, neither do I.

As an Aussie, I am beginning to loathe Brit input.

As an aussie, I apologize to brits on behalf of this person.

When you purchase a device, you have ever right to hack it.

Timeline
Sep 27, 2007, 03:40 PM
Funny thread. I was quite entertained.

Thanks

povman
Sep 27, 2007, 03:51 PM
Another mad **********ing Brit. First of all you have NO right to hack the iPhone and no right to violate the EULA. It's that simple. My suggestion--- don't even think about buying this device. You will be getting into an area that is unfamiliar and will cause you lots of complications-- stay away!!!

I have come to detest British input on this issue. You don't yet have the frigging phone and if you did you clearly would not understand its subtlties so let it go and PLEASE don't buy one. Apple doesn't need you, and as an investor, neither do I.

As an Aussie, I am beginning to loathe Brit input.

Just to clarify: Not all Australians behave like this. No-one I know behaves this way. This guy is just setting a bad example.