Steve Jobs at Paris [Archive]

nagromme

Aug 25, 2003, 02:52 PM

Steve gave last years' software-only Paris keynote. This is just reaching out to European customers.

An announcement of a future date for a Euro iTunes store might be possible. G5 demos are a given. Maybe iMac updates if they don't happen sooner.

But the MOST expected news, faster PowerBook G4s, probably won't wait one week longer that Apple is forced by Moto to wait. They are still very possible before Paris.

G5 PowerBooks are not possible this soon. Apple has officially said so. The G5 is too hot and draws too much power. Jan-Feb 2003 would be the ABSOLUTE earliest for G5 'Books, if IBM can get the chips down to 90nm by then.

adamfilip

Aug 25, 2003, 02:57 PM

its never "safe to say" anything.

MasonMcD

Aug 25, 2003, 02:59 PM

Methinks Panthire. Maybe new keyboard and mouse.

Dont Hurt Me

Aug 25, 2003, 03:01 PM

Originally posted by Dahl
Something big must be coming then.

Oh boy.... I think you have stated it,displays??new imacs??new device??powerbooks???

Stella

Aug 25, 2003, 03:03 PM

LOL. New PowerBooks, feed the never ending PB rumour mill

Lancetx

Aug 25, 2003, 03:03 PM

On the website it shows that the keynote is to be held on September 16th at 10am. I'm assuming this means 10am in Paris which would mean it will be at 4am Eastern Time. So I doubt any Apple Stores will be carrying it at that hour at least. :D

areyouwishing

Aug 25, 2003, 03:07 PM

What I want to see... in order.

1. New Powerbooks
2. Panther Shipping
3. iPod Perphs (recording)
4. Bluetooth Keyboard/Mouse
5. iTunes Music Store in Euro and for windows
6. Studio MX 2004 Previewed
7. InDesign 3.0 PS 8.0 Ill 11.0 Previewed

*edit: Forgot about the adobe prods

CrackedButter

Aug 25, 2003, 03:08 PM

A certain somebody by the name of crackedbutter is getting the morning off work with one hand holding a mouse, the other holding the phone hotline with credit card!

pilotgi

Aug 25, 2003, 03:09 PM

G5 PowerBooks are not possible this soon.
Yes they are. IBM is already making the chips. If Apple was able to come up with a MB and chipset for the PowerMacs, I don't see why they couldn't do the same for the PowerBook. Apple has officially said so.
What they said was not to expect to see G5s in laptops in the near future. That could mean anything. The Paris expo will be 3 months after WWDC.
The G5 is too hot and draws too much power.
No it doesn't. At 1.2 Ghz it dissipates heat at 19W. That's acceptable for a laptop.

pilotgi

Aug 25, 2003, 03:13 PM

I think the likely possibilities are:

Panther shipping

New displays

PowerBook updates

iMac updates

Freg3000

Aug 25, 2003, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by pilotgi
Yes they are. IBM is already making the chips. If Apple was able to come up with a MB and chipset for the PowerMacs, I don't see why they couldn't do the same for the PowerBook.
What they said was not to expect to see G5s in laptops in the near future. That could mean anything. The Paris expo will be 3 months after WWDC.

No it doesn't. At 1.2 Ghz it dissipates heat at 19W. That's acceptable for a laptop.

Thank you for clearing that up. It is funny actually; people just casually make claims like "the G5 is too hot!" "it needs to get down to 90nm first!" etc. All of these things are easily disproved.

I think we are looking at Euro iTMS info, iMac updates, Bluetooth mouse/keyboard, and Panther about to go GM. PowerBook updates prior to the the expo.

My 2 cents. :)

centauratlas

Aug 25, 2003, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by nagromme
G5 PowerBooks are not possible this soon. Apple has officially said so.

No, what they said was:
The G5 was "not going in PowerBook anytime soon". That was back in June. Please define "anytime soon." That could mean, the summer or whatever they want. It is vague enough to mean anything. And I *think* that was a good move. Unlike them saying "ITMS for Windows by the end of the year." That was silly because it encouraged everyone to try to beat them to the bandwagon.

Originally posted by nagromme
The G5 is too hot and draws too much power.

This is incorrect. Please see the thread in the PB 15 discussion showing the power dissipation of the G5 at various clock rates. Plus the power management features of the G5 etc.

It is an urban legend that keeps getting repeated without any facts/links to back it up.

jaedreth

Aug 25, 2003, 03:20 PM

If PowerBooks ship tomorrow, then I expect to see stats on how many new powerbooks were sold in the first week alone.

Else, I expect new powerbooks to at least be announced if not shipping at AppleExpo Paris.

I also expect announcements of revs to iBooks, iMacs, possibly eMacs, not necessarily shipping. I also expect announcement of new displays. I expect the announcement of the exact ship date of Panther. I don't expect it to ship with AppleExpo.

I also expect the announcement of the mystery new product, which I hope to be iWorks.

I also expect announcement on the new Bluetooth mouse and keyboard.

I don't expect a lot of things to be shipping as of the expo, though I think Powerbooks may come before, or ship at.

Apple will likely release a mystery product on the Expo date, that will ship then too.

Jaedreth

centauratlas

Aug 25, 2003, 03:25 PM

Here is my quick overview (from that other discussion) so it is easy to find. I don't think it will happen (I'd love it to), but from my reading, the problem is not that the G5 runs to hot, doesn't have any power management etc. It is time to put that rumor to rest unless it can be backed up with facts:

Summary: the 970 has got doze/nap/sleep mode, which were on previous PowerPCs. It can turn off some parts of the processor when things are quiet--under OS control. For thermal management, it has a diode on chip for monitoring temperature with leads that go off chip allowing external control.

I keep seeing things like "The G5 needs 8 fans to keep it cool." But the point of the 8 fans was to use more at a lower speeds to decrease the sound, not because 1 fan couldn't handle it. Plus the clock-rates involved are high. Likewise, as was quoted here again, since the G5 doesn't need a L3 cache, the power usage could be *less* than for a PB G4 at, say, 1.2Ghz.

Although I'd *love* to see it happen soon, but am skeptical that it will. I think the things like the "needs 8 fans" become conventional wisdom without facts to back them up.

(G5:
http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/techlib/...7256C5200611780

7457:
http://e-www.motorola.com/files/32b...t/MPC7457EC.pdf

G5 power management:
http://www.arstechnica.com/cpu/03q2...nterview-2.html
)

xtekdiver

Aug 25, 2003, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by pilotgi
Yes they are. IBM is already making the chips. If Apple was able to come up with a MB and chipset for the PowerMacs, I don't see why they couldn't do the same for the PowerBook.
What they said was not to expect to see G5s in laptops in the near future. That could mean anything. The Paris expo will be 3 months after WWDC.

No it doesn't. At 1.2 Ghz it dissipates heat at 19W. That's acceptable for a laptop.

I think pilotgi is correct. For Steve Jobs to announce a minor update to the G4 PB, at this late date, would be simply embarrasing. Jobs goes for the spotlight, the headlines, the total "wow" factor. I believe he will announce a lower MHz G5 Powerbook at Paris. It is the year of the Laptop after all. But what am I going to do about VPC?:confused:

vollspacken

Aug 25, 2003, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by arn
:) Not necessarily. Jobs gave last year's Paris keynote as well

arn

exactly! ...and back then everybody was raving about new powerbooks just like everybody does now... and I still had to wait two more months until I could order the 1GHZ tiBook...

vSpacken

meta-ghost

Aug 25, 2003, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by MacsRgr8

I'm gonna be there!

i'll be there as well and hopefully leaving with a mouse (':)!

Frobozz

Aug 25, 2003, 03:33 PM

My prediction:

-- Panther will be available for Preorder. Release date set. Available October 13th ot 20th?

-- Powerbook line updated. No G5, obviously, but the incremental boost we're all expecting. 12, 15, 17 all updated.

-- Wireless keyboard and Mouse released.

-- Other software revisions such as iChat 2.0, etc.

-- Maybe iPod accessories.

idea_hamster

Aug 25, 2003, 03:40 PM

While Steve's plan to give the Paris keynote doesn't mean that there is going to be something big (as pointed out by arn) I think that it does say that there's not going to be nothing.

I think that if we're getting something, the worst feeling is let-down from artificially inflated expectations. I'm keeping mine low and hoping for:

*Snazzy new font on keyboards!

*"Apple" to court new Euro presence with name change to "Pomme"!

*New peripheral: the iCarpal-Tunnel!

*Next operating system to named OS Yen, followed by OS Zen!

*New iApp: iBSOD to give switchers nostagic feeling!

*Next Macs will do away with "archaic" CD-RW in favor of only hot-swap S-ATA drives!

*Re-vamped 15" PB to sport case made from buckyballs -- on track for 2008!

*Jobs to reveal OSX is actually binary representation of his own genome!

and the number one thing idea_hamster is waiting for from the Paris Expo:

*We're bringin' back the CUBE!

tazznb

Aug 25, 2003, 03:40 PM

Of keyboards, and mice, panthers, and iMac.

BUT, you didn't hear it from me.:rolleyes:

Frobozz

Aug 25, 2003, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by Lancetx
On the website it shows that the keynote is to be held on September 16th at 10am. I'm assuming this means 10am in Paris which would mean it will be at 4am Eastern Time. So I doubt any Apple Stores will be carrying it at that hour at least. :D

I'm going to get to see Studio MX 2004 working next week. :-)

gothamac

Aug 25, 2003, 03:47 PM

G6?

Jerry Spoon

Aug 25, 2003, 03:48 PM

I don't think apple will be ready with the g5 pb's yet, but when he announces slightly bumped up g4 pb's I can't imagine there will be too much excitement in the house.
What is the sound of hundreds of people thinking at the same time, "I waited for THIS?":confused:

syriani

Aug 25, 2003, 03:48 PM

wanna know what's jobs going to announce?
- 12" Pb update
- Release Panther
- iPhoto and iTunes International support

rjwill246

Aug 25, 2003, 03:50 PM

An internal Apple memo last week said November to January for GM Panther. Now this could be simply to confuse their employees but I think not.
PB G4s, bumped would be great but I suspect all the Apple world would give a big yawn and say "So what?" Apple, should get G5s into the PBs as fast as possible (with a clip-on mini-fan that blows directly on the processor through a modified chicken wire enclosure.. USB2 connected of course! This makes good use of the 1.6 GHz processors that no-one seems to want int their towers Accompanied by a warning about not using the laptop while naked due to potential entanglement possibilities).

iTunes and iChat AV for Wintellers I think are priorities.

buseman

Aug 25, 2003, 03:54 PM

Last year's Apple-Expo Paris keynote was not webcast, and only brought software announcements.

It's here actually (http://www.apple.com/quicktime/qtv/expo02/)

;)

I think this years event will be more event-full as a lot of products are "cropped up" for so long now; Powerbooks, Panther, European iTunes Music Store, iPod peripherals etc...

AhmedFaisal

Aug 25, 2003, 03:58 PM

Are we having a troll infestation or why is it that no matter how positive the news is people still find reasons to vote negative??
Cheers,

Ahmed

nitropowered

Aug 25, 2003, 04:00 PM

maybe g5 xserves? I doubt anyone cares so much about an xserve, unless you run your company's it department. but ever since apple released the g5, the xserves became a huge rip off and even apple offered huge discounts on them to developers. I also think the new keyboard and mouse, ipod accessories, computer updates (unless annouced earlier), itunes for windows, and panther will be announced.

Frobozz

Aug 25, 2003, 04:01 PM

Originally posted by centauratlas
Here is my quick overview (from that other discussion) so it is easy to find. I don't think it will happen (I'd love it to), but from my reading, the problem is not that the G5 runs to hot, doesn't have any power management etc. It is time to put that rumor to rest unless it can be backed up with facts:

Summary: the 970 has got doze/nap/sleep mode, which were on previous PowerPCs. It can turn off some parts of the processor when things are quiet--under OS control. For thermal management, it has a diode on chip for monitoring temperature with leads that go off chip allowing external control.

I keep seeing things like "The G5 needs 8 fans to keep it cool." But the point of the 8 fans was to use more at a lower speeds to decrease the sound, not because 1 fan couldn't handle it. Plus the clock-rates involved are high. Likewise, as was quoted here again, since the G5 doesn't need a L3 cache, the power usage could be *less* than for a PB G4 at, say, 1.2Ghz.

Although I'd *love* to see it happen soon, but am skeptical that it will. I think the things like the "needs 8 fans" become conventional wisdom without facts to back them up.

(G5:
http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/techlib/...7256C5200611780

7457:
http://e-www.motorola.com/files/32b...t/MPC7457EC.pdf

G5 power management:
http://www.arstechnica.com/cpu/03q2...nterview-2.html
)

In all honesty, that is the smartest post I've read in a LONG time. Kudos.

ColoJohnBoy

Aug 25, 2003, 04:01 PM

I'll bet Apple will release Panther for sale either that day or the next (It is supposed to be released in mid-September, right?). That would be cool to wake up, head to the Store and pick up Panther. :D

Ahhhhh, the possibilities!

I don't expect to see G5 PowerBooks, but I wouldn't be surprised if they announced them and set November as a shipping date. If that's the case, I wouldn't mind at all having to wait a year for the update! Aagain, I doubt it'll happen but it's pretty damn awesome, especially since it's in the realm of remote possibility.

I do expect the Bluetooth Mouse and Keyboard - it just seems given, and probably demonstartion of new software designed especially for and around Panther.

In any case, I hope there will be a webcast. I wouldn't mind staying up 3 am to see Steve-O give a keynot, no matter how major or minor.

BTW, "The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers" comes out on DVD tomorrow.

Huzzah!

nagromme

Aug 25, 2003, 04:02 PM

I remain skeptical about G5 PowerBooks--although they are what I personally am waiting for. "Impossible" may be slightly too strong, but I've seen very convincing posts made on both sides of that question.

I seriously doubt Apple would say "no G5 PBooks soon" and then ship them around the same time as the desktop G5s! If August-Sept. was ever in the cards, then Apple would have announced G5 desktops AND laptops together.

But that doesn't all add up to bad news: a G4 update need not be "minor" or a "bad buy" just because it's not G5.

The G4 laptops are already outstanding. They are due for another speed boost, USB 2.0 etc. to make them that much more perfect. And the MAIN model--the 15"--needs to catch up in other ways.

Those "minor" things alone would make new G4 PowerBooks GREAT machines to buy.

agentmouthwash

Aug 25, 2003, 04:06 PM

Originally posted by xtekdiver
I think pilotgi is correct. For Steve Jobs to announce a minor update to the G4 PB, at this late date, would be simply embarrasing. Jobs goes for the spotlight, the headlines, the total "wow" factor. I believe he will announce a lower MHz G5 Powerbook at Paris. It is the year of the Laptop after all. But what am I going to do about VPC?:confused:

Yes I agree as well. For Apple to release upgraded G4 powerbooks in Mid September I think it would be extremely embarressing for Apple and disappointing for the consumers.

Would I would like to see?

(1)G5 Powerbook, but we all want that.

(2) $199 5 GB iPod. It makes sense - $299 is too much $ for most people and
not everybody needs 10gb for an Mp3 player. Apple would sell a ton of these and I am sure those 5GB Ipod users will download a ton of itunes music store music.

(3) updated imacs.

(4) updates ibooks with the G4.

(5) a Soundtrack update because mine keeps crashing!!

(6) a Safari update because mine keeps crashing!

(7) Euro itunes -> more $ for Apple.

soggywulf

Aug 25, 2003, 04:06 PM

Originally posted by xtekdiver
I think pilotgi is correct. For Steve Jobs to announce a minor update to the G4 PB, at this late date, would be simply embarrasing.

Yes, it would.

Originally posted by xtekdiver
But what am I going to do about VPC?:confused:

FWIW, I saw an official statement recently where they (MS, Connectix, whatever) said they would be updating VPC soon with G5 support. Sorry, I forget where and when I saw this.

Nermal

Aug 25, 2003, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by ColoJohnBoy
BTW, "The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers" comes out on DVD tomorrow.

Huzzah!

Well here in NZ it's out already :D But I'm gonna wait for the extended version in November.

That's my off-topic for the day :)

centauratlas

Aug 25, 2003, 04:15 PM

p.s. A bit more on power dissipation.

1. If the figures from Oct 2002 were significantly different then IBM would update them. They are trying to sell chips and need accurate information for their customers.

2. The dual G5 dissipates 97 watts at 2 Ghz. So around 48.5 for each G5 which is reasonably close to the October 2002 figures of 42 watts at 1.8 GHz. Thus, the lower speed figures are probably pretty accurate too.

3. The IBM Power4 consumes about 35 watts at 1.2GHz. Given the differences in the chip and manufacturing, the October 2002 figures for the 970 are probably pretty accurate. (from various reading regarding the Power4).

4. There are also considerations of watts/sq. mm, e.g. density.

March 2003:
"Unlike the Itanium2, IBM's PowerPC 970 isn't that different from the chips Apple is already using. Its die size, power dissipation and core voltage are all in line with what Apple would need for 64-bit PowerBooks. "
(http://www.technewsworld.com/perl/story/21144.html)

And for completeness:

Here is a pic of the 970:
http://www.theinquirer.net/images/articles/ppc970.jpg

ThomasJefferson

Aug 25, 2003, 04:19 PM

G4 Powerbooks will be out by the end of August. I think Paris will see ...

1. Euro iTunes
2. imac updates

No Panther - just a few more teasers.

jxyama

Aug 25, 2003, 04:35 PM

i don't think there'll be a g5 PB for business reasons. g5 PM is hardly shipping and i think apple believes g4 still has some life left in it as a laptop cpu.

putting a g5 in a pb, combined with r&d for mobo/casing/cooling designs would price those laptops very, very expensive. i am not going to argue that it's not possible - it's probably possible - but i don't see much incentive for apple to "rush" g5 into a laptop. a power user would probably be happy for a bit longer using g5 pm at home, g4 15" updated pb on the road...

by the way, the proclamation "not anytime soon" probably means there'll be a few more g4 PB revisions or PM g5 revisions before g5 pb. i'd tend to judge along the product cycle than time scale.

also, i really think the claim "year of laptop" was used by jobs to promote 12/17" and does not indicate some sort of promise to deliver amazing laptops one after another this year. give the announcement was back in jan., it kinda made sense to stick the word "year" in the promotion. and he probably meant more as percentage of sales rather than hardware advancement.

regardless, i hope he introduces 15" update (along with 12/17 bumps) at paris.

hose this!

Aug 25, 2003, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by nagromme
But that doesn't all add up to bad news: a G4 update need not be "minor" or a "bad buy" just because it's not G5.

The G4 laptops are already outstanding. They are due for anther speed boost, USB 2.0 etc. to make them that much more perfect. And the MAIN model--the 15"--needs to catch up in other ways.

Those "minor" things alone would make new G4 PowerBooks GREAT machines to buy.

Umm, maybe if all you want is a $2000 word processor/web browser.

I work side by side with someone who uses a 867 MHz 15.2" TiBook. We use our laptops to do some pretty heavy lifting in Photoshop 7, Illustrator 10, and Acrobat. My laptop keep ups with his and in some apps, even makes it seem pokey. What's my laptop? A 3-year old 850MHz PIII Vaio running XP pro with 256 RAM. Oh, but I also have the disadvantage of having all those pixels in a 1400 x 1050 display.

Don't get me wrong - I would love to be the proud happy owner of a mac laptop, but c'mon $2000 is A LOT of money to spend on a laptop that isn't that much faster and has lower resolution than my 3yr old machine, even if it is lighter, has better battery life, and looks prettier.

benoda

Aug 25, 2003, 04:38 PM

At this point I don't care what is announced in Paris - I just want an updated 15" PB now! I don't care if it's G5 or G4, just bring it up to speed (not directly :) with the 12" and 17"!! It's crazy that the 15" hasn't been updated!

CRAZY I TELL YA!!!!

Why wasn't the 15" Aluminumized :) w/ bluetooth, FW800, APX, 6 months ago? WHY?!

jxyama

Aug 25, 2003, 04:42 PM

Originally posted by hose this!
Umm, maybe if all you want is a $2000 word processor/web browser.

I work side by side with someone who uses a 867 MHz 15.2" TiBook. We use our laptops to do some pretty heavy lifting in Photoshop 7, Illustrator 10, and Acrobat. My laptop keep ups with his and in some apps, even makes it seem pokey. What's my laptop? A 3-year old 850MHz PIII Vaio running XP pro with 256 RAM. Oh, but I also have the disadvantage of having all those pixels in a 1400 x 1050 display.

Don't get me wrong - I would love to be the proud happy owner of a mac laptop, but c'mon $2000 is A LOT of money to spend on a laptop that isn't that much faster and has lower resolution than my 3yr old machine, even if it is lighter, has better battery life, and looks prettier.

while i can't say much in concrete terms, i find it hard to believe your p3 with 256 mb ram with xp pro wouldn't be "much" slower than 867 g4. there's a lot of room for subjective judgement there... i would think xp pro with just 256 mb would be quite sluggish, regardless of comparing to 867.

regardless, as i wrote before, i don't think there's much incentive for apple to let a g5 pb eat into the sales of g5 PM. just not yet. if apple were to dumb down the g5 in PB so it won't compete against the PM, then is there still a point to using g5 in a PB to begin with?

one of the advantages of g5 is expanded memory access. how many slots or $$$ would you need to take advantage of this when 512 mb SODIMM modules cost nearly $100 and a 1 gb, over $500? faster fsb is nice, for sure, but i really think it's a wishful thinking at this point.

instead of thinking "what's technically possible," we need to ask "what makes the best business sense for apple" because that's how apple (and any other business) operates.

Foocha

Aug 25, 2003, 04:43 PM

Right now, Steve Jobs is mulling over the problem of whether to launch an inferior iTunes Music Store Europe at the Expo or wait and risk disappoint the crowds in order to hold out against the record companies a little longer for a better deal.

He's likely to favour the latter option and just give a "coming soon" message at the keynote.

Then we'll have lots of Euro-griping on the boards!

That's my bet, anyways.

AllenPSU

Aug 25, 2003, 04:45 PM

The deal on the iPod also ends this Wednesday.

Decisions, decisions… buy a laptop now and save $200 on a pod or wait for who knows what?

---- EDIT -----
OOPS!!!

I must have written the date down wrong. Glad to find out that the deal ends in Sept and not Aug.

AllenPSU

Aug 25, 2003, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by panphage
A stevenote. My G5 powerbook theory is now a given. :D

The G5 is going to be a stretch.

jaedreth

Aug 25, 2003, 04:51 PM

Not necessarily. How many stevenotes have ended with thousands of faithful online webcasting watchers thinking, "That was LAME!", not referring to Steve's infamous presentation, but the number of *actual* new shipping products? (Or lack thereof)

Jaedreth

AllenPSU

Aug 25, 2003, 04:57 PM

blueBomber

Aug 25, 2003, 05:05 PM

All I want is a g4 ibook and an alBook 15".

I could live with those for now...

Vonnie

Aug 25, 2003, 05:16 PM

Well, I'm hoping for european support in iTunes, Sherlock and maybe iPhoto. Maybe the announcement of european apple stores in paris, london and brussels. That would be cool.

But that's just the small announcements, i have no idea what the big one will be. Whatever it is, I will probably not be able to afford it :-)

nagromme

Aug 25, 2003, 05:16 PM

What iPod deal ends this Wed? I thought the current laptop deals ($200 off iPod--for education--and $100 off printer) ran through Sept. 27, not Aug 27... ?

EDIT: PDF here says 9/27:
http://store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/buy_a_bundle_terms073003.html

Also, as far as G4 PowerBooks being an "embarrassment" now that the G5 exists, and the fact that many people will wait for a G5 no matter what... that doesn't change what's POSSIBLE for Apple. Apple will do what they can--and I do think an updated G4 PowerBook would be a very good buy and very competitive in performance.

(Again, I AM one of the ones who will wait for a G5... or possibly a dual G4 17" if Apple were to do that.)

xtekdiver

Aug 25, 2003, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by jxyama
i don't think there'll be a g5 PB for business reasons. g5 PM is hardly shipping and i think apple believes g4 still has some life left in it as a laptop cpu.

That's a good point about the G5 PMs and you may be right; however, I think the higher end dual G5 PMs have such incredible stats, that a lower MHz and single processor G5 PB would not eat into the sales of these higher end workstations. I think the G4 chips have lagged so far behind that doing minor updates on them will hurt sales of PBs. I think most people will opt to wait for the G5 PBs if that is the case, except for the few of us who really need a laptop soon.

you

Aug 25, 2003, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by nagromme
What iPod deal ends this Wed? I thought the current laptop deals ($200 off iPod and $100 off printer) ran through Sept. 27, not Aug 27... ?

thats what i thought too... thats what the apple store says

soggywulf

Aug 25, 2003, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by jxyama
regardless, as i wrote before, i don't think there's much incentive for apple to let a g5 pb eat into the sales of g5 PM. just not yet.

This is like chopping off your arm to get rid of the pain of a paper cut.

Originally posted by jxyama
if apple were to dumb down the g5 in PB so it won't compete against the PM, then is there still a point to using g5 in a PB to begin with?

Yes, there is. The G5 gives us a fast memory bus, which will speed up the powerbook enormously.

Originally posted by jxyama
one of the advantages of g5 is expanded memory access. how many slots or $$$ would you need to take advantage of this when 512 mb SODIMM modules cost nearly $100 and a 1 gb, over $500? faster fsb is nice, for sure, but i really think it's a wishful thinking at this point.

Why? Current powerbooks use DDR266 and DDR333. If you use these same modules in a dual-bank configuration, that is fast enough to supply a 500-600 MHz FSB. Wintel laptops are already at 400 MHz FSB. Why can't Apple at least match that?

Originally posted by jxyama
instead of thinking "what's technically possible," we need to ask "what makes the best business sense for apple" because that's how apple (and any other business) operates.

Right. So it would make business sense for them to consciously release a crappy powerbook revision? The only reason for such a decision would be to make large short term profits by screwing the customers. So I hope they are not planning on doing this.

avus

Aug 25, 2003, 05:47 PM

Originally posted by jaedreth
Not necessarily. How many stevenotes have ended with thousands of faithful online webcasting watchers thinking, "That was LAME!", not referring to Steve's infamous presentation, but the number of *actual* new shipping products? (Or lack thereof)
Originally posted by AllenPSU
You're right. He could simply announce the shipping of 10.3.

That's last year... Apple decided to cut down major events from 3 Macworlds/1 Apple Expo/WWDC to just 1 Macworld/1 Apple Expo/WWDC to avoid that kind of letdowns. Steve and Co. (I think) now want to include major product announcements in every Stevenotes - whether it is software related (Euro iTMS is a HUGE news) or hardware related (I don't even want to speculate on that).

jxyama

Aug 25, 2003, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by soggywulf
Why? Current powerbooks use DDR266 and DDR333. If you use these same modules in a dual-bank configuration, that is fast enough to supply a 500-600 MHz FSB. Wintel laptops are already at 400 MHz FSB. Why can't Apple at least match that?

Right. So it would make business sense for them to consciously release a crappy powerbook revision? The only reason for such a decision would be to make large short term profits by screwing the customers. So I hope they are not planning on doing this.

apple laptops are thin and compact. tell me how to stuff a dual banked ram in enough capacity to be taking advantage of g5 into a powerbook. (or would you think mac heads won't complain about bigger pb's just because it's got g5 in it?)

powerbook with g4 is not crappy. g5 is superb, no doubt. but that doesn't make g4 pb crappy. (rather, it's no more crappier than they were before g5 introduction.) if you need all the ghz, you should get a g5 pm, no question. however, to claim that g4 pb is suddenly useless or along that line is ridiculous. 15" ti, in comparison to 12/17" is outdated and should be updated. i just don't think it will be a g5 pb. if i'm wrong, great, but i don't want you to be pissed if g5 pb isn't released and start ranting that "apple is screwing the customers."

as some else wrote earlier, g4 pb is not "word processor/web browser" machine. i'm sure some will buy a $4000 15" g5 powerbook just because they need to render their movies fast on the road - however, that's not a very viable market.

tizza

Aug 25, 2003, 06:14 PM

well I guess every day that new PB's don't come out makes the next day even more likely! I guess we can say that this:
P(PB announcments at Mac Expo | no previous PB announcements are made) = 1.0

I mean really how much longer can they drag this on??

Peyote

Aug 25, 2003, 06:19 PM

OH GAWD!

Ok, Steve if you're reading, please either tell these people when the new PB's are coming, or go ahead and release them in Paris. I am so sick of hearing 5 rumors a week saying "maybe PB's are coming, maybe PB's are coming, oh this must mean PB's are coming!" Get over it people! It will be relesaed when it is released. No sooner. No amount of wishing will change that. All you rabid PB people need to just settle down and chill.

tizza

Aug 25, 2003, 06:28 PM

Originally posted by Peyote
OH GAWD!

Ok, Steve if you're reading, please either tell these people when the new PB's are coming, or go ahead and release them in Paris. I am so sick of hearing 5 rumors a week saying "maybe PB's are coming, maybe PB's are coming, oh this must mean PB's are coming!" Get over it people! It will be relesaed when it is released. No sooner. No amount of wishing will change that. All you rabid PB people need to just settle down and chill.
Ummm - well this IS a rumors site! If we just want the raw facts we'd just go to apple.com ... ;)

soggywulf

Aug 25, 2003, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by jxyama
apple laptops are thin and compact. tell me how to stuff a dual banked ram in enough capacity to be taking advantage of g5 into a powerbook. (or would you think mac heads won't complain about bigger pb's just because it's got g5 in it?)

You (or, I should say, Apple) can't put two SODIMMs in a 1" form factor?

Originally posted by jxyama
powerbook with g4 is not crappy. g5 is superb, no doubt. but that doesn't make g4 pb crappy.

If it was priced like an ibook, then it wouldn't be crappy. Because that's the level of performance the G4 has or can have according to the rumors that we have heard thus far. 10 years ago a Quadra 950 was a butt-kicking machine. Would you pay $3000 for one today?

Originally posted by jxyama
i just don't think it will be a g5 pb. if i'm wrong, great, but i don't want you to be pissed if g5 pb isn't released and start ranting that "apple is screwing the customers."

You yourself have stated that Apple has to look at the "business case" for releasing a G5 laptop, with regards to cannibalizing PM sales etc. If Apple had the technical ability to design a G5 laptop to be released now (and I have seen *very little if any* evidence to the contrary), and if they release another G4 powerbook with ibook-level performance and keep the same price points, then yes, in fact, they are screwing their customers.

Originally posted by jxyama
as some else wrote earlier, g4 pb is not "word processor/web browser" machine. i'm sure some will buy a $4000 15" g5 powerbook just because they need to render their movies fast on the road - however, that's not a very viable market.

Umm...there isn't a viable market for faster laptops? Where have you been the last 10 years?? The computer industry has been breaking its bones struggling to make laptops faster all this time...why didn't you tell them it was a waste of time??

OK. Sorry for the sarcasm. :) Anyway, no indeed the powerbook is not just supposed to be a web browsing machine...that's why it needs the G5.

reedm007

Aug 25, 2003, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by soggywulf
This is like chopping off your arm to get rid of the pain of a paper cut.

Yes, there is. The G5 gives us a fast memory bus, which will speed up the powerbook enormously.

Why? Current powerbooks use DDR266 and DDR333. If you use these same modules in a dual-bank configuration, that is fast enough to supply a 500-600 MHz FSB. Wintel laptops are already at 400 MHz FSB. Why can't Apple at least match that?

Whoa, this is out of control. First of all, the PowerMac G5 is completely redesigned over the G4. *Completely*. It uses a different Mobo, different bus, etc. Now, given all the time an energy the spent getting that done, and the difficulties IBM is having producing enough chips to keep up with demand (although thank GOD nothing like the problems Motorola had), I don't think putting out a G5 laptop is viable.

Energy management is a huge issue with the new G5s, and in order to get a G5 in a PBook, it would have to be completely redesigned from the inside. Given that these PBooks just got released in January, I don't think a complete redesign is in order yet.

Plus, you make a bizarre analogy of cutting of your arm, but I see selling G5 PowerBooks right now *could* impact Apple's bottom-line. The towers are selling well. Why don't they wait until the tower sales taper off and *then* sell the PBooks? That seems like good business sense. If you have both offered at the same time, people will choose between the two. If you offer them an amazing tower now, many people (me, for instance) will forego portability because I just want the G5 so badly. Then, when G5 PBooks come out next year, I'll buy one of those too. 2 sales.

Originally posted by soggywulf
Right. So it would make business sense for them to consciously release a crappy powerbook revision? The only reason for such a decision would be to make large short term profits by screwing the customers. So I hope they are not planning on doing this.

The G4 is not crappy. I use G3s every day for business and they work extremely well. I would love to have a G4. And it comes down to what's technically feasible as well. If they can't get a G5 into a laptop until January for technical issues, wouldn't you rather have an update in the G4 PowerBook line instead of making it suffer because "people would think it's crappy and would get pissed"?? I don't understand the logic. Every revision is better than the previous one. Why be upset when a revision happens?

andyduncan

Aug 25, 2003, 06:44 PM

Maybe it's just an excuse for Esteban to visit Jean Marie Hullot (http://www.apple.com/ichat/)...

nitropowered

Aug 25, 2003, 06:53 PM

Originally posted by soggywulf
You (or, I should say, Apple) can't put two SODIMMs in a 1" form factor?

The 15" Ti books (at least the one my dad has, 667 DVI model) has two sodimm slots so a dual bank config is totally possible on future powerbooks. the 17" also has two slots, its just the 12" and ibooks with only one slot.

jxyama

Aug 25, 2003, 06:59 PM

soggywulf,

have you seen the 12" pb disassembled? there are two slots (1 on mobo, 1 ext) for RAM and there really isn't much more room. to get 2 gigs on two SODIMM RAM, you'd need close to (if not over) $1000...

i never said there's no market for a faster laptop. i said there's not much of a viable market for "as fast as a desktop but at twice the price" laptop at $4,000 range.

sing. proc. g4 at 1 ghz was priced around $1500 (maybe cheaper) for PM and $3000+ for PB back when 17" pb came out. if sing. proc. g5 at 1.6 ghz is $2000, then PB would be $4,000? if people are complaining about how much money apple costs, how $2,000 is such a lot of money for a 15" PB, etc., etc., do you think there'll be enough people buying $4k g5 pb to justify apple spending all r&d on re-designs, cooling etc.?

i personally think apple would be better served focusing on g5 PM for now... and make PB updated with the best g4 can offer. early next year, once supply for g5 stablizes and cpu/hd/ram prices come down, they can release a g5 pb. i just think it would be a hasty job for apple to release a g5 pb.

of course, i'd love to be wrong. but i kinda doubt it.

jxyama

Aug 25, 2003, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by nitropowered
The 15" Ti books (at least the one my dad has, 667 DVI model) has two sodimm slots so a dual bank config is totally possible on future powerbooks. the 17" also has two slots, its just the 12" and ibooks with only one slot.

what i implied in my first post about ram slots is that in order to get more than 1 gb at reasonable prices, you will need more than two slots. i never said two slots can't be fitted into a powerbook because you obviously can.

if there are only two slots, the most you can have right now is 2 gb, using two 1 gb RAM. but each 1 gb SODIMM is over $500 right now. that's a lot of money to spend on memory, if you ask me.

centauratlas

Aug 25, 2003, 07:05 PM

This is what I think we'll see at -or around- Mac Expo Paris. Just my personal guesses:
1. PB speedbumps, plus a 15 updated to equiv of the 12 and 17 - all G4s. (Hopefully increased maximum memory for the 12")
2. Panther demo's with a "coming soon" including things like Bluetooth keyboard, mice. Disk encryption etc.
3. Updates to several iApps, perhaps demos of the updated Appleworks (less likely). Perhaps iChatAV demo for Windows (e.g. via AOL)(less likely).
4. Updated iMacs - speed bumps, Firewire 800 etc.
5. "Shipping" dual 2GHz G5s.
6. 10.2.7 update

What I would *love* to see, but think unlikely (hope I am wrong):
1. iTMS for Windows, unless it is just a demo with a coming soon (this should be a huge priority for them - 1st mover advantage and all). Apple needs this and iChatAV for Windows.
2. iChatAV beta for Windows
3. Bigger iPods plus new accessories and periphs. Perhaps Bluetooth synching
4. 10.3. This is possible since they seemed to be shooting for Sept/Oct earlier in the year but things got pushed back for the dev conf, but perhaps it will be "shipping soon".
5. PB G5 - I still don't think the heat is an issue at 1-1.2 GHz. But for other reasons I think it unlikely in the Aug-Oct time-frame, unfortunately. Steve wants to be the one to announce the "world's first 64-bit laptop" (in all sizes). That is a no-brainer. ;-) But the issue is that until Apple can *ensure* that it can ship all the G5 PMs that are being ordered with enough 970s extra, it won't go with the PB G5. It needs something shipping in bulk to keep the $ coming in.
6. If no PB G5, perhaps a dual G4. That would be nice (unlikely, but nice).

rdowns

Aug 25, 2003, 07:14 PM

. For Steve Jobs to announce a minor update to the G4 PB, at this late date, would be simply embarrasing. Jobs goes for the spotlight, the headlines, the total "wow" factor. I believe he will announce a lower MHz G5 Powerbook at Paris. It is the year of the Laptop after all. But what am I going to do about VPC?:confused: [/B]

I think there will be a lot for him to announce, see all the other posts in here. I think a G5 laptop pre-announcement would be in order.

The PowerBook G5, the world's fastest laptop. Order one today for Xmas delivery!

SiliconAddict

Aug 25, 2003, 07:20 PM

Originally posted by xtekdiver
For Steve Jobs to announce a minor update to the G4 PB, at this late date, would be simply embarrassing. Jobs goes for the spotlight, the headlines, the total "wow" factor. I believe he will announce a lower MHz G5 Powerbook at Paris. It is the year of the Laptop after all. But what am I going to do about VPC?:confused:

Well the question is has Jobs done the Apple Expo in Paris in the past? If no I would say this is a PowerBook 15" release.

I'm betting that he wanted to announce the 15" at WWDC but Moto screwed up once again. This could be the makeup presentation. As for G5. Heh I wish. Honestly my money is on next spring. This isn’t about being embarrassed or not. This is to get to any school kids holding out and for the X-mas season. As much as I want a G5 to show up; unless Apple has been working on it in parallel with the Power Mac it ain’t going to be ready. I think even Jobs knows at this point they can’t afford to mess up any products they release. Releasing a G5 at this point would probably end up being a rush job and would probably end up being a disaster. Laptop designs aren’t created overnight and certainly they aren’t created from the ground up, like a G5 would be, in 4 months.
The updated G4s are going to be a stop gap to hold people over until a G5 can be released.

Of course my mileage will very with speculation. *shrugs* I’ll leave a bit of hope. But there isn’t much.

PS- We are forgetting the ultimate reason they can’t release a G5 PowerBook. I don’t have the 3 grand I need to get it yet. :D By March I should be good. March will definitely be the release date. :D ;)

NavyIntel007

Aug 25, 2003, 08:13 PM

It's probably euro itunes. Maybe announcing Panther is ahead of schedule. Maybe even a surprise itunes for windows beta or something.

I don't think it will be hardware though.

hose this!

Aug 25, 2003, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by jxyama
while i can't say much in concrete terms, i find it hard to believe your p3 with 256 mb ram with xp pro wouldn't be "much" slower than 867 g4. there's a lot of room for subjective judgement there... i would think xp pro with just 256 mb would be quite sluggish, regardless of comparing to 867.

regardless, as i wrote before, i don't think there's much incentive for apple to let a g5 pb eat into the sales of g5 PM. just not yet. if apple were to dumb down the g5 in PB so it won't compete against the PM, then is there still a point to using g5 in a PB to begin with?

instead of thinking "what's technically possible," we need to ask "what makes the best business sense for apple" because that's how apple (and any other business) operates.

No, really. It irks my friend to no end that m old lappy can keep up with his. I'm not saying G4 PBs are crap as a rule of thumb - I'm saying for THE MONEY they are. I don't mind paying a premium for better OS, better design, etc. so long as the performance is comparable.

As for what makes business sense, do you really think Apple would devote this much time and energy on something that's not going to win over a lot of buyers? Especially after the school buying season where people who HAVE to buy PBs already have? A speed-bumped 15" in a new shell isn't going to win over a lot of users, especially savvy power users who need speed in their machines - and PowerBooks are supposed to be for power users. I guarantee you there are a lot of would-be switchers out there who would make the leap but only if it's a G5 PB later next month.

People are falling all over themselves to buy G5s. Do you think Apple thinks people will do the same for a speed-bumped G4 PB? That's like saying G4 PMs bumped up to 1.7 GHz would have been hot sellers. :D

AidenShaw

Aug 25, 2003, 08:21 PM

Originally posted by centauratlas
Steve wants to be the one to announce the "world's first 64-bit laptop" (in all sizes). That is a no-brainer. ;-)

"No Brain" is right - Tadpole has been shipping 64-bit Alpha and SPARC notebook systems for many years.

Go to their website (http://www.tadpolecomputer.com/exec.php?p=prod-note) and pick up a 64-bit UltraSPARC with 4GiB of RAM - today.

Jobs won't be honest if he claims "first" 64-bit notebook, but then honesty isn't exactly a foundation of a Stevenote. The RDF and all, you know....

cb911

Aug 25, 2003, 08:26 PM

big deal. so Steve Jobs is going to announce that Panther is shipping.

and why does everyone now think that the updated PowerBooks will come at Paris? Apple is just going to make another few thousand TiBooks and that'll be it for the year. then they will release the G5 PowerBooks when they're produced with the 90nm process in 2004. :rolleyes: what were you expecting?

Mac User Canada

Aug 25, 2003, 09:00 PM

There seems to be a large body of opinion that G5 laptop sales would eat in to G5 tower sales.

With similarly processored machines, towers will always be more powerful than laptops and portability will always come at the expense of a performance hit.

If you want raw processing power you will always purchase a tower or a rack mount.

If you want portability you will always purchase a laptop.

I suggest that these are two separate markets and that the overlap between them is not as large as is being suggested.

Therefore I don't feel that a G5 laptop would eat heavily into G5 tower sales.

soggywulf

Aug 25, 2003, 09:02 PM

Originally posted by jxyama
have you seen the 12" pb disassembled? there are two slots (1 on mobo, 1 ext) for RAM and there really isn't much more room. to get 2 gigs on two SODIMM RAM, you'd need close to (if not over) $1000...

Why 2 gigs of RAM? Get 1 gig, then. The G5 does not need 2 gigs of RAM to be faster, as you seem to be implying. The additional speed comes from having much greater memory throughput than a G4 system. They can easily fit two slots, which is needed for the dual-bank configuration.

Originally posted by jxyama
i never said there's no market for a faster laptop. i said there's not much of a viable market for "as fast as a desktop but at twice the price" laptop at $4,000 range.

Why does it have to be $4000? Why can't it be price competitive with similar-performing wintel laptops? Just because machines were priced highly in the past, does not mean they have to be overpriced now.

Originally posted by jxyama
i personally think apple would be better served focusing on g5 PM for now...

I think Apple is a big enough company to have separate teams and engineer two products simultaneously. They have had a ton of time to design a G5 laptop.

soggywulf

Aug 25, 2003, 09:07 PM

Originally posted by Mac User Canada
With similarly processored machines, towers will always be more powerful than laptops and portability will always come at the expense of a performance hit.

If you want raw processing power you will always purchase a tower or a rack mount.

If you want portability you will always purchase a laptop.

I suggest that these are two separate markets and that the overlap between them is not as large as is being suggested.

Therefore I don't feel that a G5 laptop would eat heavily into G5 tower sales.

Yes, I agree. Not releasing G5 laptops for the purported reason that it would eat PM sales is silly.

daRAT

Aug 25, 2003, 09:12 PM

My prediction ....

Everyone here will be bitterly dissapointed, and will lament on thier frustration in some 400 posts, all saying the same thing ;]

Anyone wanna bet money on this :>

nagromme

Aug 25, 2003, 09:14 PM

To put those Tadpole Solaris laptops into perspective... here are some details (http://www.tadpolecomputer.com/exec.php?p=prod-note-ultra-spec) on the UltraBookIIi:
http://www.tadpolecomputer.com/images/products/ultrabook_124.jpg

Battery life: 30 to 60 minutes.

Charge time: 6-7 hours while computer is on, 2.5 hours otherwise

Weight: 8.5 lbs. with battery

Size: 2.3 in. x 12.84 in. x 11.66 in.
(almost THREE times the volume of the 15" TiBook; more than double the volume of the 17" AlBook)

ATI Rage LT graphics

14.1" 1024x768 display, only 260 thousand colors (or up to a 17" external display)

400MHz UltraSPARC-IIi

20 or 30 GB HD (can swap out battery and graphics card for more drive space)

256 MB RAM (expandable to 1024 MB)

Solaris OS and StarOffice

Expansion: cardbus, ethernet and legacy ports: SCSI, parallel, serial, floppy

No wireless, no USB, no Firewire

NO optical drive--but fear not, they sell an external kit as an accessory:
http://www.tadpolecomputer.com/images/accessories/29.jpg

No pricing given for that model. The SparcLE sounds a bit better--15.1" screen available, and internal CD-ROM or Combo drive. WiFi, up to 80 GB HD and 2 GB RAM. Still bigger and heavier than any PowerBook, still no Firewire. Starts at $3000 for the bottom-end 440 Mhz with 1024x768 14.1" display and CD-ROM.

In short... these are not practical laptop choices by most standards--they are TRUE niche products. I don't think Apple will have much trouble phrasing their claims around these models, when PowerBooks go 64-bit.

daRAT

Aug 25, 2003, 09:14 PM

Oh, anyone wanting to give away thier "crappy" G4 PB, please send it my way. I'll write you a very nice thank you note :P

reedm007

Aug 25, 2003, 09:18 PM

Originally posted by soggywulf
Yes, I agree. Not releasing G5 laptops for the purported reason that it would eat PM sales is silly.

By the logic quoted above "if you want power, purchase a laptop" and "if you want portability, purchase a laptop" then it sounds like you expect the PowerBook to lag well behind the PowerMac.

If the PowerBook is upped to a G5, it would seem its speed is quite close to the PowerMac which, in my book, could cause issues with PowerMac G5 sales.

For example, from my own experience, I want a laptop. I love portability. But I do love the advanced architecture and speed of a G5. Thus, as it stands, I'm debating whether or not to buy a G5 Tower. If a G5 PowerBook came out, I would definitely not buy a tower, I'd buy a PowerBook.

However, as it stands, I may end up buying a G5 simply because I want the power. But when a G5 PowerBook comes out, I'll want that too.

What do they risk waiting 2 months before releasing a PowerBook, all technical issues aside? Will it "piss us" off enough to jump ship and not buy the Mac? I'm not so sure.

So I think you may be wrong. I don't think there's a "laptop" camp and a "desktop" camp, and you either belong to one or the other. I personally own an iBook and a G3 tower, and I think there are a decent number of people who might be that way. I'm not saying I don't want a PowerBook G5 right now, however. I just don't think it will happen.

Of course, I don't think it will happen for technical reasons, as I explained above. So this conversation is somewhat irrelevant. :)

panphage

Aug 25, 2003, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by soggywulf
Why 2 gigs of RAM? Get 1 gig, then. The G5 does not need 2 gigs of RAM to be faster, as you seem to be implying. The additional speed comes from having much greater memory throughput than a G4 system. They can easily fit two slots, which is needed for the dual-bank configuration.

Originally posted by jxyama
i personally think apple would be better served focusing on g5 PM for now...

I think Apple is a big enough company to have separate teams and engineer two products simultaneously. They have had a ton of time to design a G5 laptop.
I think Apple is a big enough company to have separate teams and engineer two products simultaneously. They have had a ton of time to design a G5 laptop.

Good points, soggywulf, this is the "G5 theory" I was talking about in my first post in this thread. You do not have to pack tons of memory into the G5 for it to be faster, it has greatly faster bandwidth everywhere in the system, and bandwidth is what the G4 NEEDED, way more than the G4 needed higher frequencies.

And apple has been at this for 3-5 years, developing the G5. This is the industries finest R&D department bar none. Why did apple just stop innovating the G4 for 5 years? Because all their architecture geniuses were working in the four or five G5 teams. Yes, four or five. A few tower teams, a few laptop teams. Read Insanely Great, you will see how apple does it. They are always working on several new products, when one is clearly a winner, they cancel the others and focus on the future. I have no doubt at all they were designing a mobile G5 architecture at the exact same time as the G5 tower architecture. IBM has planned on putting the 970 into high-density blades all along, that convinces me that the 970 has what it takes to fit into a portable.

panphage

Aug 25, 2003, 09:30 PM

Originally posted by reedm007
By the logic quoted above "if you want power, purchase a laptop" and "if you want portability, purchase a laptop" then it sounds like you expect the PowerBook to lag well behind the PowerMac.

If the PowerBook is upped to a G5, it would seem its speed is quite close to the PowerMac which, in my book, could cause issues with PowerMac G5 sales.

I think the G5 will be a totally different situation from the G4. I really don't expect (after reading the updated Ars Technica review of the 970) apple to toss a 1.4GHz 970 with a 700Mhz system bus into a portable. I think they will choke back the bus to a figure that still beats the pants off the G4's meager 133 while not killing the heat and battery life. So yeah, the G5 powerbook will not be as fast as the G5 towers. This was not the case with the G4, where the powerbooks were extremely close to the same performance of the towers due to the entire architecture being choked by slow bus speeds.

Originally posted by reedm007
So I think you may be wrong. I don't think there's a "laptop" camp and a "desktop" camp, and you either belong to one or the other. I personally own an iBook and a G3 tower, and I think there are a decent number of people who might be that way. I'm not saying I don't want a PowerBook G5 right now, however. I just don't think it will happen.
[/B]

In the "real world" (Intel :) ), there are portable and desktop camps. Most people want a desktop, because they destroy the laptops for performance. People want the best rig for gaming and prick-waving. In the apple world, we have become accustomed to late, shoddy ports of most games, the games aren't driving us. We DO want prick-waving rights, but as noted above, there hasn't been that much of a difference in the G4 world. We could make up for the minor differences with a "but mine's only 1-inch thick and get's 5 hours battery life. And it's SHINEY!" :D

rjwill246

Aug 25, 2003, 09:35 PM

Originally posted by panphage
[B----that convinces me that the 970 has what it takes to fit into a portable. [/B]
Of course it does and it will and there won't be 9 bloody fans either. As I posted before, internally Apple says NO Panther until ?? Jan. next year. Fine! I can live with that. But anything other than a G5 PBs will make them a laughing stock... derision will know NO bounds.
Apple really needs to get with ONE processor across all lines. They are not Dell... no one looks at Dell and says "Wow! You don't have the fastest processor in the universe on all your machines. Shame on you!" Apple, poor buggers, are lambasted unless they have the best processor in the universe... and while I know that otherwise is true, the REST of them will demand G5s, so Apple needs to do it! And, as an exception, since no-one expects a lot from them, the iBooks could all be G4s and bloody beautiful they would be,too. Thus and all, they have to get G5s into all the PBs and all incarnations of their boxes, save the iBooks, otherwise some miserable little s*it will take them to task, write horrible reviews (Dvorak comes to mind---YUK!!!!) and there you go again! APPLE! For once listen to your audience... make ONLY the best, bide your time and SCREAM OUT to the world that OS X really rules... and mean it!

sneakerpimp

Aug 25, 2003, 09:42 PM

Hello Macfans... Welcome to the Real.

** insert sound of thunder **

In my hand I have a blue pill and a red pill.

You take the blue pill and the story ends. You wake up in your bed and you only know of 1 Ghz Powerbooks. You are happy and you buy one plus you get a crappy Lexmark printer.

You take the red pill and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes.

There you will find promises of G5s that you can hold with one hand, FW 800, USB2 and a crappy Lexmark printer.

Remember that all I am offering is you wait. And stew. Oh yea, and wait some more. Nothing more.

So what's it going to be people?

love, sneakerpimp - the red pill poppin' mac fanatic

AllenPSU

Aug 25, 2003, 09:43 PM

Originally posted by nagromme
What iPod deal ends this Wed? I thought the current laptop deals ($200 off iPod--for education--and $100 off printer) ran through Sept. 27, not Aug 27... ?

I've got to be wrong... happily that is. I must have wrote it down wrong. I was bent on buying the new laptop before the deal ran out. Maybe I can wait Apple out a little longer! :-D

soggywulf

Aug 25, 2003, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by reedm007
If the PowerBook is upped to a G5, it would seem its speed is quite close to the PowerMac which, in my book, could cause issues with PowerMac G5 sales.

It won't be as fast as the powermacs. We're talking 1.2 GHz, 500-600 MHz bus, slower graphics hardware, less RAM capacity, and of course less expandability. These are definitely separate markets, as pointed out by Mac User Canada.

Originally posted by reedm007
What do they risk waiting 2 months before releasing a PowerBook, all technical issues aside? Will it "piss us" off enough to jump ship and not buy the Mac? I'm not so sure.

That is indeed a problem. Apple knows it can do whatever it wants, and we will pay full price for it. Recipe for disaster, long term.

Originally posted by reedm007
Of course, I don't think it will happen for technical reasons, as I explained above.

I have been browsing these boards for some time, and I have not yet seen any substantiated technical evidence that a G5 powerbook is not possible today. On the contrary, there is quite a bit of technical information that suggests that the G5 laptop is quite doable, today.

soggywulf

Aug 25, 2003, 09:49 PM

Originally posted by rjwill246
Apple really needs to get with ONE processor across all lines. They are not Dell... no one looks at Dell and says "Wow! You don't have the fastest processor in the universe on all your machines. Shame on you!" Apple, poor buggers, are lambasted unless they have the best processor in the universe...

No, not necessarily. There are two parts to this--price and performance. There's nothing wrong with a G4 laptop--as long as it is priced appropriately.

soggywulf

Aug 25, 2003, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by sneakerpimp
USB2 and a crappy Lexmark printer.

LOL :)

reedm007

Aug 25, 2003, 09:54 PM

Originally posted by soggywulf
I have been browsing these boards for some time, and I have not yet seen any substantiated technical evidence that a G5 powerbook is not possible today. On the contrary, there is quite a bit of technical information that suggests that the G5 laptop is quite doable, today.

Okay well I understand from a technical standpoint that putting a G5 in a laptop is technically feasible. The things I've seen posted suggest this as well. But, now let's look at practicality of this technical implementation, and the r&d time it takes to put new architecture into a box such as a PowerBook.

In order for Apple to be able to ship a G5 in a PowerBook today, I believe they would have had to be designing this essentially for the past year. Given the fact that these powerBooks came out in January, I'm just not sure that's the case. We're talking a complete overhaul internally, and that takes time, research, and money.

So, you never know, but it's not as if Apple could slap a G5 in a laptop in 3 months and ship it. There are enough changes under the hood that need to happen that it takes a significant amount of time to get working. And Apple won't ship an unfinished product. They can't afford to.

jxyama

Aug 25, 2003, 10:03 PM

one of the greatest power of 64 bit g5 is the fact it can address more memory. all i'm saying is, why release a product into a market where one of the best feature of it can't be taken advantage of in reasonable terms?

who here hasn't read about 12/17" powerbook users lamenting the fact g4 as is can't optimally handle DDR RAM? it's DDR but doesn't double the data rate because of g4 memory addressing bottleneck. and many people lament about this.

if g5 pb is released and configured such that reasonably affordable max. memory is 1 gb, people will complain that they are being charged too much for features that aren't exactly affordable/accessible...

anyway, i'm done. there are two camps: g5 powerbook is coming soon and g5 powerbook won't be coming for a while, stick to g4 powerbook camp. so that's that...

panphage

Aug 25, 2003, 10:08 PM

Originally posted by reedm007
Okay well I understand from a technical standpoint that putting a G5 in a laptop is technically feasible. The things I've seen posted suggest this as well. But, now let's look at practicality of this technical implementation, and the r&d time it takes to put new architecture into a box such as a PowerBook.

In order for Apple to be able to ship a G5 in a PowerBook today, I believe they would have had to be designing this essentially for the past year. Given the fact that these powerBooks came out in January, I'm just not sure that's the case. We're talking a complete overhaul internally, and that takes time, research, and money.

So, you never know, but it's not as if Apple could slap a G5 in a laptop in 3 months and ship it. There are enough changes under the hood that need to happen that it takes a significant amount of time to get working. And Apple won't ship an unfinished product. They can't afford to.

I have GOT to find that article. I read it about a week before the intro of the G5, the thesis was that apple's G4 R&D had all but disappeared about five years ago, when the Motorolla "G5" project was cancelled. The author claimed that all Apple's R&D might was focused on bringing the 970 to market, as apple clearly couldn't count on motorolla. (I think what was going on is that people weren't sure that moto wanted to continue to develop microprocessors at all, let alone desktop versions.) The powerbooks haven't seen a great deal of innovation in that same time period. I think it's entirely possible that Apple has had a team working on the mobile G5 all the while. I don't know if you think this is possible as well or not. I want to believe it, and it does make sense. What do you think?

AidenShaw

Aug 25, 2003, 10:23 PM

Originally posted by nagromme
I don't think Apple will have much trouble phrasing their claims around these models, when PowerBooks go 64-bit.

Apple won't bother with subtle wordsmithing - they'll go with the "big lie". They did it with the Power Mac G5, why not expect Stevie to lie about a PPC970 'book?

The Lord God Jobs claimed that the Power Mac G5 was the "first 64-bit desktop", when in fact Digital and Sun and HP had been shipping far smaller 64-bit systems for nearly a decade.

Will the LGJ claim "best battery life for a 64-bit laptop"? LOL. He'll smile and utter the bald-faced lie "first 64-bit laptop", and the sheeple will cheer.... MMWTV.

How on Earth can you even claim that the Power Mac G5 is a desktop anyway - that case is really, really big! It's only a "desktop" because you put the monitor on your desk!

spice weasel

Aug 25, 2003, 10:24 PM

I would love to see a shiny, new PB G5 announced at Paris, if not sooner, but I just don't see it happening. If Apple had one ready for release, why not announce it back at WWDC? It's not like the G5 towers shipped right away, so Steve could have announced it and then made everyone wait to get one. I see little reason why Apple would wait until mid-September to announce a G5 PB, thereby loosing out on the back to school crowd (and yes, we all know that very few if any students would actually need a G5, but I think a fair number would scrape up the cash somehow for one). Of course, it is possible that Apple was still working out some last minute details that kept them from announcing a G5 PB back at WWDC.

Has Paris ever been a venue for major hardware releases? This is not a rhetorical question -- I'm asking because I don't know.

Lastly, there seem to be a fair number of people who believe that simply because Apple wants to release a PB G5, they therefore will release one in the next few weeks. I fail to see how A follows B here. Putting a G5 in a PB requires more engineering than putting a G4 in one did -- the G5 system architecture is vastly different from the G4, much more so than the G4 was/is from the G3. And look how long it took to come up with the first TiBook.

Are PB G5's possible at Paris? Yes, I suppose. Probable? Not likely.

Anyway, I'm hoping they announce a PB G6 at Paris. After all, the line hasn't had a revision in almost 10 months -- plenty of time to design a new case, mobo, chip, etc. for a G6. And if they don't release one, I'm gonna be pissed and buy me a big ole' brick of a Dell. That'll show Steve. :p

Whatever.

Mudbug

Aug 25, 2003, 10:46 PM

you know, if every person complaining in these threads about the lack of a new powerbook were actually going to _purchase_ said powerbook, then Apple would be in the black in no time. Instead, there is a constant "whining" noise being made by multiple folks who _want_ a new powerbook, but when they emerge (and they will, sometime) they'll say "i'm gonna wait for revB" or "well, I didn't think they'd be that much $$" or "it doesn't run at 14 Ghz."

If you're gonna buy one, and have put off the purchase for a while, I can completely comiserate. If you're just complaining to complain, do it elsewhere.

I'd like to see them. I have my own opinion as to what I think they'll be able to do, and how fast they'll go. But I'm not gonna buy one. And chances are, a good number of the whiners aren't going to either.

Sorry about that - just not in a very good mood about this...

xtekdiver

Aug 25, 2003, 10:58 PM

Originally posted by jxyama

regardless, as i wrote before, i don't think there's much incentive for apple to let a g5 pb eat into the sales of g5 PM. just not yet. if apple were to dumb down the g5 in PB so it won't compete against the PM, then is there still a point to using g5 in a PB to begin with?

Yes there is. Having a G5 PB, even if it were only 1.2GHz, would still spark the Gollum factor. "We mussst have it!! Ours it iss." You get the picture. It would also allow for there to be G4 upgrades to the iBook line.

soggywulf

Aug 25, 2003, 10:58 PM

Originally posted by reedm007
In order for Apple to be able to ship a G5 in a PowerBook today, I believe they would have had to be designing this essentially for the past year. Given the fact that these powerBooks came out in January, I'm just not sure that's the case. We're talking a complete overhaul internally, and that takes time, research, and money.

Apple has known about the 970 for more than a year. I think that should enough time to design a laptop based on it.

Originally posted by jxyama
one of the greatest power of 64 bit g5 is the fact it can address more memory. all i'm saying is, why release a product into a market where one of the best feature of it can't be taken advantage of in reasonable terms?

Because it is a lot faster. The main benefit of the G5 at this point is speed, not amount of memory. Everyone can use speed. How many people use >4GB of RAM today? When 2GB DIMMs are sold for cheap, you can put them in your exising G5 laptop. Your statement is not a good reason to hold back the G5 powerbook; nor does your statement present any technical difficulties with desgining or building a G5 laptop, as you were implying in your earlier posts.

xtekdiver

Aug 25, 2003, 11:19 PM

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Well the question is has Jobs done the Apple Expo in Paris in the past? If no I would say this is a PowerBook 15" release.

I'm betting that he wanted to announce the 15" at WWDC but Moto screwed up once again. This could be the makeup presentation. As for G5. Heh I wish. Honestly my money is on next spring. This isn’t about being embarrassed or not. This is to get to any school kids holding out and for the X-mas season. As much as I want a G5 to show up; unless Apple has been working on it in parallel with the Power Mac it ain’t going to be ready. I think even Jobs knows at this point they can’t afford to mess up any products they release. Releasing a G5 at this point would probably end up being a rush job and would probably end up being a disaster. Laptop designs aren’t created overnight and certainly they aren’t created from the ground up, like a G5 would be, in 4 months.
The updated G4s are going to be a stop gap to hold people over until a G5 can be released.

Of course my mileage will very with speculation. *shrugs* I’ll leave a bit of hope. But there isn’t much.

PS- We are forgetting the ultimate reason they can’t release a G5 PowerBook. I don’t have the 3 grand I need to get it yet. :D By March I should be good. March will definitely be the release date. :D ;)

I'm pretty sure they have been developing a G5 PB in tandem with the PM. I am no engieneer, but it seems pretty obvious that PBs come with their own special design issues. However, none of us can really know what they are and when they will have solved them. It is not outside the realm of possibility that they have prototype G5 PBs already. I'm betting also that they must announce something by September; I mean, how could Steve get up there and not announce something about the PBs? I agree they wouldn't announce something that was not ready, but who can say they aren't?

Let's just consider this: we all agree that the reason we havn't seen the PB updates is because of Moto. So, if this is a problem (and we don't know just how bad a problem it is btw.) they would have been forced to consider the possibility of having no choice but to release a PB G5. What if Moto can't supply any chips? Apple would be in serious trouble and would be pressuring IBM for possible solutions. I think a G5 PB announcement may be the only option Apple has; and this is why the big wait. Either way, I will be plunking down my three grand no matter what they come out with. I need a laptop bad!

reedm007

Aug 25, 2003, 11:27 PM

Originally posted by AidenShaw
Apple won't bother with subtle wordsmithing - they'll go with the "big lie". They did it with the Power Mac G5, why not expect Stevie to lie about a PPC970 'book?

The Lord God Jobs claimed that the Power Mac G5 was the "first 64-bit desktop", when in fact Digital and Sun and HP had been shipping far smaller 64-bit systems for nearly a decade.

Well, I believe you are wrong. :) I was at the WWDC keynote and Steve Jobs called it the "world's first 64-bit personal computer". And that's the same as what's on the website at: www.apple.com/powermac (http://www.apple.com/powermac)

You see -- it's not a lie at all. It *is* the world's first 64-bit PERSONAL computer, with personal being the operative word in that sentence. In fact, they never mention the word desktop... I challenge you to find anything from Apple that says that it is the "first 64-bit desktop"!

yoshi1013

Aug 25, 2003, 11:33 PM

Ever since discovering the joy that are Steve Jobs Keynote speeches about two years ago I become irrationally excited upon hearing that another one is forthcoming.

Unfortunately, now that I'm working it's not as possible to go to the Apple Store to watch them which is really the best way 'cause of the people cheering and stuff. *Sigh* streaming video from now on for me.

xtekdiver

Aug 25, 2003, 11:34 PM

Originally posted by Mudbug
you know, if every person complaining in these threads about the lack of a new powerbook were actually going to _purchase_ said powerbook, then Apple would be in the black in no time. Instead, there is a constant "whining" noise being made by multiple folks who _want_ a new powerbook, but when they emerge (and they will, sometime) they'll say "i'm gonna wait for revB" or "well, I didn't think they'd be that much $$" or "it doesn't run at 14 Ghz."

If you're gonna buy one, and have put off the purchase for a while, I can completely comiserate. If you're just complaining to complain, do it elsewhere.

I'd like to see them. I have my own opinion as to what I think they'll be able to do, and how fast they'll go. But I'm not gonna buy one. And chances are, a good number of the whiners aren't going to either.

Sorry about that - just not in a very good mood about this...

The wad in my pocket is hurting my ass! I have a tingly feeling in my foot too.

tizza

Aug 25, 2003, 11:38 PM

AidenShaw

Aug 25, 2003, 11:38 PM

Originally posted by reedm007
I challenge you to find anything from Apple that says that it is the "first 64-bit desktop"!

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2003/jun/23pmg5.html

...featuring the world’s first 64-bit desktop processor...

As I said, Stevie's speciality is "the big lie" !!!!!!!

I met your challenge, now what?

reedm007

Aug 25, 2003, 11:44 PM

Originally posted by AidenShaw
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2003/jun/23pmg5.html

...featuring the world’s first 64-bit desktop processor...

As I said, Stevie's speciality is "the big lie" !!!!!!!

I met your challenge, now what?

heh. Good call :) Now what? I dunno. Wanna go get coffee or something? It's on me... ;)

Oh no no wait, I need to further this very useful debate.;) So what is the definition of a "desktop computer"? If you visit Sun or HP's website, their 64-bit machines fall under their "server" category on their site, not "desktop"... So maybe desktop computers are equated to personal computers?

Yeah, fight that! Huh? Huh? What you got on that, man?? (by the way, this is all joking -- you caught me fair and sqaure :) )

tizza

Aug 25, 2003, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by AidenShaw
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2003/jun/23pmg5.html

...featuring the world’s first 64-bit desktop processor...

As I said, Stevie's speciality is "the big lie" !!!!!!!

I met your challenge, now what?
Heck has anyone ever heard of Google? Just type in apple "world's first 64-bit desktop" and you'll find just a _few_ articles ...

panphage

Aug 25, 2003, 11:48 PM

Originally posted by AidenShaw
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2003/jun/23pmg5.html

...featuring the world’s first 64-bit desktop processor...

As I said, Stevie's speciality is "the big lie" !!!!!!!

I met your challenge, now what?

And your claim is what, that an SGI Octane2 is a desktop machine? Please, this has been hashed out 10000 times. It's all marketing and semantics, ok? There are four main categories of computers now: Portable, "desktop", Workstation, and Server. Yeah, I'm leaving out mainframes and supercomputers, sue me. The real question is whether Apple's claim that the G5 is a "desktop" is true or whether the G5 is more accurately called a workstation. Price is a touch high for a desktop (it IS an apple after all), low for a workstation, and with no real pro cards available for it yet, I'd say the G5 is not really in the same class as a Sun or an SGI.

AidenShaw

Aug 25, 2003, 11:49 PM

Originally posted by reedm007
heh. Good call :) Now what?

No biggy - just my point that Apple often does subtle wordsmithing - what they say seems to be incorrect, but if you very carefully analyze the words it isn't exactly a lie.

The Power Mac G5 announcement, though, isn't so clear. Neither the claims of "first" or "fastest" seem to be bullet-proof....

But where this started, though, was to point out that 64-bit laptops have been on sale for nearly 10 years. Maybe not the smallest, the lightest, or the best battery life - but you can buy them today.

Will Apple flat out lie and claim that a PPC970 in a PowerBook is the first 64-bit laptop? You and I both know that the answer is probably yes....

SiliconAddict

Aug 25, 2003, 11:52 PM

Originally posted by soggywulf
It won't be as fast as the powermacs. We're talking 1.2 GHz, 500-600 MHz bus, slower graphics hardware, less RAM capacity, and of course less expandability. These are definitely separate markets, as pointed out by Mac User Canada.

Don't forget anywhere from 4200,5400, or now just starting to show up 7200 RPM hard drives vs. Serial ATA drives.
Anyone who expects G5 based laptops to = G5 based desktops is going to be in for a rude awakening.
People are mentioning that the low end G5 doesn't put out that much heat however has anyone considered the support chips? You get your system bus high enough you will end up with some serious additional heat output from the surrounding hardware and not just the CPU. Laptop design has always been a delicate balancing game between power usage, heat, performance, size, weight, and other various factors. Apple seems to do a good job with this balancing act. When they do release a G5 laptop you ARE going to see power but also good battery life while keeping it lightweight.

vixapphire

Aug 26, 2003, 12:00 AM

now that the g5's will be hitting stores, seems like the natch thing to update is the display form factor. the clear/white/chrome apple studio/cinema display casing is totally g4.

plus, showing off a flash new piece of furniture (which is really all the monitor is, in terms of its casing, let's face it) will give jobs a chance to bask in the oohing and aahing of an admiring crowd, like old man earl at the GM motorama's back in the 50's.

does anyone have an opinion on the likelihood of seeing that rumored 32" lcd display come to fruition anytime soon? what better time than now/paris? they'll update the displays before anything else - apple needs to sell a complete, nice looking system: yesterday's plastic monitor and tomorrow's mesh-metal cpu box don't look right together, and that should be everyone's first hint -- after all, since the imac debut and the blue g3's, aesthetics have been a big part of apple's "rolls royce marketing strategy"...

something as big as a 32" monitor will also comport with the gargantuan case of the new g5's, which apparently are too large even to rack-mount...

just my 2 bits...

merges

Aug 26, 2003, 01:07 AM

I have to agree with the no-G5-PowerBook folks here.

While there may be technical advantages to such a product, and while Apple *may* be capable of creating a PowerPC G5-based PowerBook, think about this:

1) The 12" PowerBook G4 and 17" PowerBook G4 have never been revised. That's a lot of money to spend on engineering two products that would likely have to be completely redesigned (case and all, no doubt, to account for heat issues)...

2) If the PowerBook line went G5, where would the iBooks be? They are still using G3s, and I wouldn't expect that their low MHz numbers and non-Velocity Engine G3 would be very popular. Especially compared to the education desktop, eMac, which would still be a G4.

3) Along the same lines, iMac would still be a G4, but cost about the same as an insanely great portable with a faster G5. iMac sales would probably suffer hugely, along with iBook sales.

Product-grid-wise, a G5 PowerBook doesn't make sense right now. It would cannibalize sales of other products.

Another point to consider from a design perspective: Would Apple release a major new product, like PowerBook G5, without a huge product redesign as well? As in, "just a G5 version" of the existing PowerBook (Aluminium case for the 15" notwithstanding)? I somehow think not. And I certainly don't think that it's very Apple to invest heavily in product designs like the 12" and 17", only to ditch them just over half a year later.

My money is on faster G4 PowerBooks, with improved graphics, and a new 15" PowerBook G4 in the style of the 12" and 17" models. Which, despite not using the PowerPC G5, will still be *amazing* versus the hordes of awful Windows XP-sporting laptops out there, and by far the most useful and usable laptops on the market.

Let's face it, a 15" PowerBook G4 with Mac OS X (especially Panther) blows the pants off almost any Wintel laptop in terms of overall quality and experience. Nothing beats Apple's OS, apps, and elegant hardware combo.

dguisinger

Aug 26, 2003, 01:32 AM

Originally posted by merges
I have to agree with the no-G5-PowerBook folks here.

While there may be technical advantages to such a product, and while Apple *may* be capable of creating a PowerPC G5-based PowerBook, think about this:

1) The 12" PowerBook G4 and 17" PowerBook G4 have never been revised. That's a lot of money to spend on engineering two products that would likely have to be completely redesigned (case and all, no doubt, to account for heat issues)...

2) If the PowerBook line went G5, where would the iBooks be? They are still using G3s, and I wouldn't expect that their low MHz numbers and non-Velocity Engine G3 would be very popular. Especially compared to the education desktop, eMac, which would still be a G4.

3) Along the same lines, iMac would still be a G4, but cost about the same as an insanely great portable with a faster G5. iMac sales would probably suffer hugely, along with iBook sales.

You've got to be kidding me, thats really not thinking very far. LOOK at the 12" PowerMac. Its begs to be called an iBook. Look at the selection of ports. Look at the speeds. They could use the same board in both a 12" and 14" iBook and announce the G4 iBooks with ease.

G4 iMacs? No one will complain, because there are G4 iBooks. Duuhhhhhhh

Not everything needs to be a G5. The R&D spent developing the latest powerbooks is not lost if they immediately jump to a G5 powerbook. Don't try to fool yourself on that.

trianglejuice

Aug 26, 2003, 02:56 AM

Originally posted by Steven1621
hmm...if steve jobs is venturing across the ocean to give the keynote this would certainly lead me to believe that something big will be coming. it might be safe to say that we can expect our powerbooks at this time after months of waiting.

Not necessarily. He'll probably
- do his Panther speech again
- introduce the iApps upgrades.

Nevertheless I'm also hoping he'll introduce the new PB's :rolleyes:

TJ.

Ryan1524

Aug 26, 2003, 03:26 AM

i'm not going to give any speculation since there seemed to be enough of it already. but think about this, most of the speculations here has been based on the idea that what apple's doing inside closed doors conforms with the time they announce new products. but for a corporation as big as apple, they might alreadyahve the next decade or two planned out or at least outlined. (roadmap)

how long have they been working on the G5 before it was released? and when did we start hearing anything about it? they might already have a G5 powerbook since january and the new casings have also been designed to accomodate the new chips, who knows. and i think they should have many many teams working on many different things all at once. apple is a huge corporation and i don't think they would have only one team working on everything one by one.

why don't we all sit back and relax and wait for the day. :)

note: the 12" PB is technically a face lifted iBook. i don't think it takes them very long to design that particular machine. so that leaves them the 17" to design from the ground up.

CmdrLaForge

Aug 26, 2003, 05:38 AM

Originally posted by areyouwishing
What I want to see... in order.

1. New Powerbooks
2. Panther Shipping
3. iPod Perphs (recording)
4. Bluetooth Keyboard/Mouse
5. iTunes Music Store in Euro and for windows
6. Studio MX 2004 Previewed
7. InDesign 3.0 PS 8.0 Ill 11.0 Previewed

*edit: Forgot about the adobe prods

Like to add something here. I think we are waiting for:
1. New powerbooks with dual core G4
2. iMacs
3. iPod perphs
4. bluetooth stuff
5. iTMS Europe
6. New LCD in G5 design
7. GM Panther

Have I forgotten something ? Pls add.

noneis

Aug 26, 2003, 05:40 AM

i think we will see updates to the 15"(possibly a g5), and the wireless mice and keyboard in paris.

apple would have killed desktop sales if they had come out and said that "powerbooks with a g5 are here in 2 months", a lot of people would have waited.

motorola isnt going anywhere because apple will still use the g4 in their lower end machines.

due to the shortage of the current models, its not like most of us could go out and get one before the paris expo with the 4-6 week wait right now.

did anyone else find it real strange that apple did not simply update the 15" back when they did the 12" and 17", with at least the aluminum enclosure, and the backlit keyboard (would have sold a ton of those, it seems to say they were working on somthing new and better for the 15" way back then)

this is the year of the notebook, and so far we havent seen anything to make it that. if i am wrong, then apple has made its biggest mistake since stevie wonder took ahold of the reigns again.

centauratlas

Aug 26, 2003, 05:44 AM

Originally posted by AidenShaw
"No Brain" is right - Tadpole has been shipping 64-bit Alpha and SPARC notebook systems for many years.

First, whether what you say is true or not is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to my point, which was Steve wants to say it. I made no comment about the veracity of the statement.

Secondly, in the mass-market "PC"-class machine it is a pretty accurate statement: *Intel* running Windows, not SPARC, Transmeta, or Alpha etc are the machines that Apple compares itself too. Those are the machines that IBM, Dell, Gateway etc all sell a majority of.

So, whether it is strictly accurate to say the "first 64 bit portable", they will say it. Just look at the PM G5, in that class (mass-market, desktop, Intel-based, Windows machines), it is a pretty accurate statement. And besides, as we've learned before when you say "It is the first 64-bit portable with an 17 inch display," that can be perfectly true it just depends on the meaning of "is".

fpnc

Aug 26, 2003, 05:47 AM

Everyone who is wishing for or expecting a G5 PowerBook should consider the fact that presently there is no guarantee that a G5 PowerBook running at 1.2GHz would be any faster than a well-designed G4 system running at either 1.25GHz or 1.33GHz (MPC7457). In fact, it's possible that for many tasks a G4 running at 1.33GHz would outperform a 1.2GHz G5 (IMO, without G5-optimized applications this might be a given). Most of the benchmarks I have seen suggest that the G5 is providing similar clock-per-clock performance as a G4. The only area where the G5 seems to provide a significant advantage over the G4 is in floating point operations (and, of course, advantages gained from pure cpu and memory clock speed improvements).

Therefore, a G4 (rumored MPC7457-based PowerBook) running at 1.33GHz could be about as good as we can expect (or should expect). So, a best-case G4 might still outperform any G5-based PowerBook that Apple could produce (for the time being, this could change early next year).

As for PowerBook introductions at the Paris Expo, yes, I think that is about the right timeframe (a suggestion that I made over ten days ago while many were still saying that it had to happen on Aug. 19).

noneis

Aug 26, 2003, 05:51 AM

Originally posted by fpnc
there is no guarantee that a G5 PowerBook running at 1.2GHz would be any faster than a well-designed G4 system running at either 1.25GHz or 1.33GHz

correct me if i am wrong, but could G5 powerbooks not utilize more ram then a G4?

noneis

Aug 26, 2003, 05:59 AM

Originally posted by merges
The 12" PowerBook G4 and 17" PowerBook G4 have never been revised. That's a lot of money to spend on engineering two products that would likely have to be completely redesigned (case and all, no doubt, to account for heat issues)...

is it not entirely possible that they "thought" ahead, and pre-deisgned tha basics of these models to be updated at some point?

AidenShaw

Aug 26, 2003, 06:55 AM

Originally posted by noneis
correct me if i am wrong, but could G5 powerbooks not utilize more ram then a G4?

The main problem is finding space for 3 or 4 DIMM slots for the memory, and cooling the heat generated by them - not the processor's capability.

The G4 can easily handle 2 GiB of RAM, which would be 2 DIMMs at today's highest density. The 15" and 17" have 2 DIMM slots, but Apple is not offering the 1GiB DIMMs needed for 2 GiB.

isgoed

Aug 26, 2003, 07:34 AM

Originally posted by CmdrLaForge
Like to add something here. I think we are waiting for:
1. New powerbooks with dual core G4
2. iMacs
3. iPod perphs
4. bluetooth stuff
5. iTMS Europe
6. New LCD in G5 design
7. GM Panther

Have I forgotten something ? Pls add.

Ok my opinion of all rumoured products in the order of likeliness according to me:

--extremely likely--
Bluetooth mouse
Bluetooth keyboard
iTunes Europe. This is Paris, you know.
ibook G3 1Ghz (max 1.3Ghz)
Powerbook G4 1.33Ghz
Panther release date announced
New LCD in G5 design

--possible--
XServe G5
iPod perphs (Camera, audio record, bluetooth)
Panther Shipping
iMac G4 1.4Ghz (max 1.6Ghz) iMac says: "Give me a decent GPU"
HW: Graphics cards, HD, usb2.0 devices

--not gonna happen--
Powerbook G5
iTunes Windows
iChatAV for Windows

noneis
correct me if i am wrong, but could G5 powerbooks not utilize more ram then a G4? [/B]

Well it is possible to attach a terrabyte to a G5 (current G5 = 8Gb max though) but just imagine the space required, power consumption and heat generated by 4GB ram in a notebook???

soggywulf

Aug 26, 2003, 07:36 AM

Originally posted by AidenShaw
As I said, Stevie's speciality is "the big lie" !!!!!!!

I met your challenge, now what?

I hear you and I sympathize, but in all honesty I don't think it really matters too much. It's just marketing crap, after all, and all companies fudge it a little when it comes to that. The important thing is that the Mac has to move to 64-bit eventually as memory usage starts to approach 4 GB and beyond, and it is a good thing that we have such a seamless transition due to the 970 chip. So much the better that we have it now, rather than when the majority of users are already hitting the 4GB wall.

cubist

Aug 26, 2003, 07:39 AM

So if Apple went to IBM and said "we're in trouble with our PowerBooks, Moto can't deliver the 7457", what do you think would happen?

Apple announces the 1.2GHz G3 iBook.

soggywulf

Aug 26, 2003, 07:53 AM

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
People are mentioning that the low end G5 doesn't put out that much heat however has anyone considered the support chips?

The lack of L3 cache in a G5 system may reduce power consumption and counter the increased power consumption of the system controller. The RAM stays the same, so no difference there. Furthermore, PC manufacturers are making fast-bus laptops today with reasonable battery life--if they can do it, so can Apple.

Originally posted by merges
2) If the PowerBook line went G5, where would the iBooks be? They are still using G3s, and I wouldn't expect that their low MHz numbers and non-Velocity Engine G3 would be very popular. Especially compared to the education desktop, eMac, which would still be a G4.

No kidding. The iBooks are extremely long in the the tooth. The obvious answer to your concern is that the current G4 powerbooks (or a 7457 revision thereof) will become the new iBook line, when the G5 powerbooks are released. This will finally put the G4 laptops at the proper price point.

Originally posted by merges
3) Along the same lines, iMac would still be a G4, but cost about the same as an insanely great portable with a faster G5. iMac sales would probably suffer hugely, along with iBook sales.

Then perhaps the correct answer to this is to reduce iMac prices as well to bring them more in line with other computers with similar performance.

soggywulf

Aug 26, 2003, 07:53 AM

Originally posted by fpnc
Therefore, a G4 (rumored MPC7457-based PowerBook) running at 1.33GHz could be about as good as we can expect (or should expect). So, a best-case G4 might still outperform any G5-based PowerBook that Apple could produce (for the time being, this could change early next year).

No, it won't. Don't have so much faith in benchmarks, they can be very misleading. Benchmarks that test only the CPU (either artificially or through a single specialized app function) blind you to the fact that the processor on a slow bus is usually sitting around idle starving for data. The fast bus on the G5 will make it much faster in real-world, multi-app, hi-power usage.

jxyama

Aug 26, 2003, 08:45 AM

soggywulf,

i never claimed nor implied that g5 pb is impossible. i said it would be hard to put enough memory slots (more than 2) to make it reasonable (less than $1000) to install more than a 1 gb.

read my posts. i never said g5 pb can't be made at this point. i never even implied it.

Frobozz

Aug 26, 2003, 09:25 AM

Originally posted by AidenShaw
"No Brain" is right - Tadpole has been shipping 64-bit Alpha and SPARC notebook systems for many years.

Go to their website (http://www.tadpolecomputer.com/exec.php?p=prod-note) and pick up a 64-bit UltraSPARC with 4GiB of RAM - today.

Jobs won't be honest if he claims "first" 64-bit notebook, but then honesty isn't exactly a foundation of a Stevenote. The RDF and all, you know....

Oy. :-) Jobs said the "first 64-bit personal computer", and he would say "the worlds first consumer 64-bit laptop" or the like. Anything released before, such as the link above, are not in the consumer space.

Frobozz

Aug 26, 2003, 09:31 AM

Originally posted by AidenShaw
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2003/jun/23pmg5.html

...featuring the world’s first 64-bit desktop processor...

As I said, Stevie's speciality is "the big lie" !!!!!!!

I met your challenge, now what?

No, you didn't. It _is_ the worlds first 64-bit desktop processor. It's also the world's first 64-bit personal computer. They're using desktop and personal as synonyms here... obviously a gray area. However, "desktop processor" is right, and "personal computer" is also right. "desktop computer" would NOT be right.

It's all about symantics in marketing. I'm no fan of the word game, but Jobs never lied. If you believe it was meant to be misleading... OF COURSE it was! It's marketing, my friend! :-)

AidenShaw

Aug 26, 2003, 09:39 AM

Originally posted by Frobozz
Jobs said the "first 64-bit personal computer"

Windows NT and Windows 2000 ran on Digital/Compaq 64-bit Alpha personal computers. It ran Microsoft Office (some native Alpha code, some through translation), QuickTime player, and most "personal computer" applications like Photoshop

Tell me that this isn't a 64-bit personal computer:

http://membres.lycos.fr/multia/multia2.gif

jxyama

Aug 26, 2003, 10:02 AM

this discussion about 64 bit desktop business is all silly. who really cares?

you can load Windows to run on Alpha. do you find dells and HPs shipping Alpha's with Windows?

for most consumers, they probably won't even know any processors other than intel anyway.

g5 PM is the first, afaik, 64-bit desktop machine you can buy from a widely available vendor, pre-loaded with all consumer programs. it works out of the box.

so if the "lie" works for most of the target, then it's a "lie" but it's also marketing.

Sratner

Aug 26, 2003, 10:05 AM

Pardon me for re-stating something someone else may have said already... but I didn't read every post here.... basically the thing that strikes me about the powerbook situation is.. With the announcement of the new G5 processor Apple had to figure that sales of the aging G4 powwerbooks would come to a screeching halt..... I mean why invest $3000 dollars in a laptop with a processor that has reached the end of the line.. unless of course you need it now... How hard is it to develop the powerbook and tower at the same time when they were working on the G5...... couldn't they have been working on both .... and then release them seperately.... I guess the question is what is the lifespan of the G4 powerbook... maybe 6months..... I just think its quite possible they will hold off and release the G5 no upgrades to the exsisting g4... who knows... and please.. are we supposed to take apples word that there won't be a G5 anytime soon???? come on they are in the buisness of selling computers... they arent going to kill sales of their exsisting powerbooks, just so they can be stand up guys..

just my thoughts

bennetsaysargh

Aug 26, 2003, 10:19 AM

maybe, just maybe they were waiting for Paris to just screw IDG by releasing updates for everything, announce panther shipping, new keyboards and mice, and an iPod recording device:D
when as the last time a product was updated by apple?

it is a possibility:)

isgoed

Aug 26, 2003, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by Sratner
With the announcement of the new G5 processor Apple had to figure that sales of the aging G4 powwerbooks would come to a screeching halt.....

I think you are looking at it from the wrong perspective. The G5 is introduced because PowerMacs were coming to a screeching halt. Apple sales show that even with 'slow' G3 & G4 procs, still nearly half of the sales are notebooks. The sales that are really going to halt, because of the G5, are that of the iMac. It seriously needs minimum specs of:

iMac 17"
any 1.6Ghz+ proc
512mb 333DDR
nVidia FX5200/radeon 9000
200mhz bus

I just had another interesting idea... What if Apple is going to put a crusoe processor in the powerbook. Just dump G3, G4, altivec & G5 altogether.

CmdrLaForge

Aug 26, 2003, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by isgoed
Ok my opinion of all rumoured products in the order of likeliness according to me:

--extremely likely--
Bluetooth mouse
Bluetooth keyboard
iTunes Europe. This is Paris, you know.
ibook G3 1Ghz (max 1.3Ghz)
Powerbook G4 1.33Ghz
Panther release date announced
New LCD in G5 design

--possible--
XServe G5
iPod perphs (Camera, audio record, bluetooth)
Panther Shipping
iMac G4 1.4Ghz (max 1.6Ghz) iMac says: "Give me a decent GPU"
HW: Graphics cards, HD, usb2.0 devices

--not gonna happen--
Powerbook G5
iTunes Windows
iChatAV for Windows

Well it is possible to attach a terrabyte to a G5 (current G5 = 8Gb max though) but just imagine the space required, power consumption and heat generated by 4GB ram in a notebook???

Well, I don't completly agree to your assumptions.
I don't see the iBook update at Paris.

lord_flash

Aug 26, 2003, 10:58 AM

So, in summary of this thread, It's be possible to put a G5 in notebook, but the old hands are going to be mightily suprised if Apple actually do?

A few weeks ago it was all "there'll never be a G5 laptop this soon". Have a lot of people have changed their minds very quickly, or have the pre-Steve excitables come out of hiding in time for the show?

For those of us trying to decide what to do with our hard earned, having hoped to be a switcher with a lovely new PowerBook, it's all a little perplexing. After all, I now can't buy a PowerBook until they've got a G5 in them, and, odds on, that won't be this update. Which means not until at least February next year? (I'm trying to think actual shipping dates, not announcements).

So, hold on until Paris, if there is no news then get myself a Windows tower to tide me over (no one can possibly argue there is a value-for-money Apple desktop for those of us used to PC prices and willing to pay that bit more for reliability and style).

That'd also give me a chace to see whether Apple do anything to further infuriate the decreasing developer community, or MS do something to mean the internet is the exculsive territory of Windows. After all, it might be terrible that MS can dominate the web so sites only work on IE (which, remember, is no longer developed on Mac) but that's not going to stop me wanting to look at those pages...

You know, before I read this forum I though I was a 100% cert switcher. Now I'm increasingly worried that I'd be an idiot if I did. These, now, are the only circumstances under which I'll switch:
- PowerBook 15" Airport/Bluetooth etc. G4 is a lot cheaper than Apple usually manage
- PowerBook G5 comes out.

Othrwise the money'll go to a bish-bosh box company for another wintel machine, and I'll give Apple a last chance with the notebook. Can't say fairier than that?

jxyama

Aug 26, 2003, 11:21 AM

Originally posted by lord_flash
For those of us trying to decide what to do with our hard earned, having hoped to be a switcher with a lovely new PowerBook, it's all a little perplexing. After all, I now can't buy a PowerBook until they've got a G5 in them, and, odds on, that won't be this update. Which means not until at least February next year? (I'm trying to think actual shipping dates, not announcements).

So, hold on until Paris, if there is no news then get myself a Windows tower to tide me over (no one can possibly argue there is a value-for-money Apple desktop for those of us used to PC prices and willing to pay that bit more for reliability and style).

...

You know, before I read this forum I though I was a 100% cert switcher. Now I'm increasingly worried that I'd be an idiot if I did. These, now, are the only circumstances under which I'll switch:
- PowerBook 15" Airport/Bluetooth etc. G4 is a lot cheaper than Apple usually manage
- PowerBook G5 comes out.

Othrwise the money'll go to a bish-bosh box company for another wintel machine, and I'll give Apple a last chance with the notebook. Can't say fairier than that?

by the time g5 pb comes out, there'll be even faster g5's and just maybe (though doubtful), g6 specs, coming out. will you then claim that g5 pb would be obsolete and wait again?

what exactly do you need the g5 pb for that g4 pb is inadequate to handle but "cheaper PC box" is adequate enough to hold you over?

sorry to sound a bit cynical and i certainly don't want to tell you how to spend your money, but you might be waiting for quite a while, i'm afraid...

some will probably regard your post as a troll simply because we've heard many proclamation of "unless apple does this, i'm gonna go get a pc" and are rather tired of it. if you want a mac and are serious about it, pc's are usually out of the consideration. (on your profile, it says you have an emac already... that won't hold you over until g5 pb but a cheap pc box will?)

lord_flash

Aug 26, 2003, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by jxyama
by the time g5 pb comes out, there'll be even faster g5's and just maybe (though doubtful), g6 specs, coming out. will you then claim that g5 pb would be obsolete and wait again?

what exactly do you need the g5 pb for that g4 pb is inadequate to handle but "cheaper PC box" is adequate enough to hold you over?

sorry to sound a bit cynical and i certainly don't want to tell you how to spend your money, but you might be waiting for quite a while, i'm afraid...

Well a 'cheap' windows box ($1000 sans monitor, I reckon) will serve to pick up mail, etc. (and probably, in fairness, edit video and run Photoshop etc.). If I get a laptop I want it to be able to burn DVDs, edit short vids etc. anywhere, but mostly just Photoshop and mail etc.

You're right to be cynical. I want a PowerBook beccause they look the part, and it's a shame not to get a new model. I don't need it. I could make do for ages with a good desktop and my aging Vaio ultra-portable with a new battery. Or just a windows portable and my external DVD-R.

But then I wouldn't be a switcher, and I do have a residual loathing of Microsoft, not helped by the fact that my laptop (which is my only machine) seems to have an accelerated death following the spread of these latest worms. I use a Mac during the day too - I know that it'd make a lot of tasks easier. I want one. I just don't want to be a chump.

rog

Aug 26, 2003, 11:43 AM

I think this pretty much guarantees the iPod with a quad G6 is going to be announced.

Java

Aug 26, 2003, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by idea_hamster
*We're bringin' back the CUBE!
Yes, a G5 cube! Hehe:p

fpnc

Aug 26, 2003, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by noneis
correct me if i am wrong, but could G5 powerbooks not utilize more ram then a G4?

I doubt whether a G5 PowerBook would support more than 4GB of DRAM (initially), so there is no reason why a G5-based PowerBook would "utilize more ram" than a G4-based model.

idea_hamster

Aug 26, 2003, 01:02 PM

Originally posted by Java
Yes, a G5 cube! Hehe:p
I'd love to see a G5 cube if it could be done. I loved the original -- but not enough to buy one (*guilt*). I think it would be an interesting companion to the PowerMac: small and sleek as opposed to the USS POWERMAC G5 aircraft carrier. Problem is, I think that they couldn't get away with the convection cooling system. Oh, well.

(OS X is Steve's genome! Now that's a Mac rumor worthy of the Weekly World News.)

soggywulf

Aug 26, 2003, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by jxyama
by the time g5 pb comes out, there'll be even faster g5's and just maybe (though doubtful), g6 specs, coming out. will you then claim that g5 pb would be obsolete and wait again?

The idea is that we are hoping Apple will release the G5 powerbook soon, before it is in fact obsolete. By obsolete, I mean overpriced. Nothing is obsolete, at the right price.

hose this!

Aug 26, 2003, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by jxyama
by the time g5 pb comes out, there'll be even faster g5's and just maybe (though doubtful), g6 specs, coming out. will you then claim that g5 pb would be obsolete and wait again?

what exactly do you need the g5 pb for that g4 pb is inadequate to handle but "cheaper PC box" is adequate enough to hold you over?

sorry to sound a bit cynical and i certainly don't want to tell you how to spend your money, but you might be waiting for quite a while, i'm afraid...

some will probably regard your post as a troll simply because we've heard many proclamation of "unless apple does this, i'm gonna go get a pc" and are rather tired of it. if you want a mac and are serious about it, pc's are usually out of the consideration. (on your profile, it says you have an emac already... that won't hold you over until g5 pb but a cheap pc box will?)

Hey, I'm with Soggywolf and Lord Flash on this one. With the introduction of the G5, you can be sure that the OS and other software applications will begin to move to native 64-bit code and what then of your "good-value" speed-bumped G4? Do you really think it's wise to spend $2500 on a laptop now that is running on stale hardware specs and won't be able to take advantage of 64-bit optimized software? Hell, Adobe have already released a G5 plug-in for photoshop that supposedly makes it SCREAM and guess what? You can't get it for PBs BECAUSE THEY RUN ON G4s!!!

Technology always improves blah blah blah but are seriously telling me that $2500 on a G4 laptop now is as good as $2500 on a G5 laptop in January (or September :D)? No way - I'll tell you the difference. That G5 laptop should last me 3 or so years (like a $2500 laptop should). That G4, in less than a year's time, is going to be one of the more popular mac items on ebay.

VIREBEL661

Aug 26, 2003, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by Dahl
Something big must be coming then.

Oh boy....

Or, maybe an excuse to party in Paris?:D

How about some awesome PowerBook and iBook revisions Steve - c'mon!!!

VIREBEL661

Aug 26, 2003, 02:29 PM

the USS POWERMAC G5 aircraft carrier.

LOL! I love it!:D

VIREBEL661

Aug 26, 2003, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by lord_flash
...So, hold on until Paris, if there is no news then get myself a Windows tower to tide me over...

Cheap PC's are made from the lowest common denominator components. I mean, try building one with the quality of stuff Apple puts in! The price difference evaporates quickly... I think of it like this - forget about what's coming or whatever, you have to make a purchase decision based on here and now. There's always going to be new tech, same with buying a car (unless it's a VW or Audi - they tend to stick with their designs much longer, and they rock - but I love little Asian sports cars!)... When you compare even the low end Mac, they still always have graphics cards, etc.. Follow your heart man, if that means buying a ghetto PC, so be it..

IE(which, remember, is no longer developed on Mac)

FYI - IE is no longer being developed for WINDOWS either... It's going to be 'integrated' totally into their latest versions (to my understanding). The majority of people out there on the net ARE NOT using the latest versions of windoze, or even 56k connections. This means they wont be able to upgrade their aging PC's to use the latest IE, either. ALSO, developing a website, whatever it is, so that it only really works correctly in IE is foolish. Yes, the majority of folks are using IE, but you need to design around the HTML standards. It's offensive to me if I go to a website and it doesn't work in Safari - it just means that they lose my money, and my money is as good as everyone else's.

OutThere

Aug 26, 2003, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by agentmouthwash

(4) updates ibooks with the G4.

Thanks for being the first person to mention the iBooks :). If not G4s, then 1.1 Ghz g3s with a SIMD unit/Altivec which has been rumored that IBM is already producing. Maybe a graphics update. I WANT AN iBOOK!!!!:D :D

Qte

Aug 26, 2003, 06:25 PM

My Wishlist for September 16th :

- iOffice (to get rid of the last MSapp on my Imac)
- 30" brushed metal flat screen
- iTMS for Europe
- official release of Panther
- iBooks and iMacs upgrade

- and a lot of presents for the attendees of the Keynote 'coz I'll be there. People not able to be there can call me on my cellphone after the Keynote (will be glad to give you the good news.)

nek

Aug 26, 2003, 09:26 PM

I keep seeing things like "The G5 needs 8 fans to keep it cool." But the point of the 8 fans was to use more at a lower speeds to decrease the sound, not because 1 fan couldn't handle it. Plus the clock-rates involved are high. Likewise, as was quoted here again, since the G5 doesn't need a L3 cache, the power usage could be *less* than for a PB G4 at, say, 1.2Ghz.

Although it was always obvious that the 9 fans were for quietness rather than heat, I had always assumed the G5 would still be too much for the PowerBook. But after reading IBM document here (http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/A2CE393ABF2CE99787256D21006AE8A2/$file/PPC970_MPF_Review.pdf) it is very possible for the PowerBook G5 to be announced anytime Apple wants to.

At 1.2GHz the G5 uses less power (19W) than the 1.0 GHz G4 (21.3W) currently used in the PowerBook. So although I previously expected the 15" and 17" PowerBooks to be 1.2GHz G4, I now expect them to be 1.2 GHz G5.

Remember, it is the Year of the Laptop.

filmmaker2002

Aug 26, 2003, 09:33 PM

Originally posted by nek
Although it was always obvious that the 9 fans were for quietness rather than heat, I had always assumed the G5 would still be too much for the PowerBook. But after reading IBM document here (http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/A2CE393ABF2CE99787256D21006AE8A2/$file/PPC970_MPF_Review.pdf) it is very possible for the PowerBook G5 to be announced anytime Apple wants to.

At 1.2GHz the G5 uses less power (19W) than the 1.0 GHz G4 (21.3W) currently used in the PowerBook. So although I previously expected the 15" and 17" PowerBooks to be 1.2GHz G4, I now expect them to be 1.2 GHz G5.

Remember, it is the Year of the Laptop.

Indeed. That's what I've been saying for some time. There is no reason Apple couldn't put a G5 into a powerbook, I'll even venture the Aluminum enclosures were created with the G5 in mind.

hose this!

Aug 27, 2003, 03:18 AM

Originally posted by nek
Although it was always obvious that the 9 fans were for quietness rather than heat, I had always assumed the G5 would still be too much for the PowerBook. But after reading IBM document here (http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/A2CE393ABF2CE99787256D21006AE8A2/$file/PPC970_MPF_Review.pdf) it is very possible for the PowerBook G5 to be announced anytime Apple wants to.

At 1.2GHz the G5 uses less power (19W) than the 1.0 GHz G4 (21.3W) currently used in the PowerBook. So although I previously expected the 15" and 17" PowerBooks to be 1.2GHz G4, I now expect them to be 1.2 GHz G5.

Remember, it is the Year of the Laptop.

Good point.

And here's another about the 9 fans and the new desktop case design: Remember, this is the first iteration of the G5 chips. The case will be around for many more generations. That's to say, I do think those engineers at Apple who designed the case were smart enough to have thought ahead to when hotter and faster G5s will be going into the case.

It's called "Designing With the Future in Mind"

Chances are good they did the same thing with the Al PB case design. The beauty of it is probably a lot more than skin deep...

lord_flash

Aug 27, 2003, 03:46 AM

Originally posted by VIREBEL661
Cheap PC's are made from the lowest common denominator components. I mean, try building one with the quality of stuff Apple puts in! The price difference evaporates quickly...

Well, yes, but if i've already got a monitor/yeyboard and other PC gubbins lying around, and I only want an ugly box then I get more than enough power to run all my apps comfortably. For a little bit more cash, I can get a Sony system, with perfectly passable components and software pre-loaded.

I think of it like this - forget about what's coming or whatever, you have to make a purchase decision based on here and now.

Normally, I'd agree. But in that case, I'm buying a Windows machine, and I'd rather not if I can avoid it. My heart is with Apple, but my nerves lead me away.

I'll let you into a little secret. I used to own an Acorn RiscPC. Acorn developed the ARM chip, which is now the basis for pocket PCs. Well ahead of it's time (faster, in MIPs terms, than the PCs and, I believe, macs of the time and a GUI that had an Icon Bar and context-sensitive menus years before Windows, then Apple, caught up. The Dock is almost an exact rip off of it. Applications that don't quit just because they don't have a window open - how an OS should be. It was brilliant. And now OS X is it.

Thing is, i also remember the siege mentality as the UK computer market switched from having 3 players to windows dominance. I know it's not quite the same with Apple, but, well, I think you can understand my fear now...

[FYI - IE is no longer being developed for WINDOWS either... It's going to be 'integrated' totally into their latest versions (to my understanding).
... It's offensive to me if I go to a website and it doesn't work in Safari - it just means that they lose my money, and my money is as good as everyone else's. [/B]

Very true, and we can only hope that any new 'features' they insert are provided as service releases for I.E. 5/Mac. Somehow I'm not holding my breath. either way, you'd by lying, or very optimistic, if you weren't a little nervous.

As to it being offensive if a site won't worth with Safari, I quite agree. That said, my ISP's online mail browser doesn't. And, at the end of the day, I have to be led by the reality, not what should be true.

At the risk of drifiting topic, another worry is 'security'. MS, like the US government, can pull off almost any trick it feels like and claim the motive was security, for example the recent updates of Messenger that prevent other clients using the MSN servers.

All I'm saying is that there are legitimate reasons to worry. I know it sounds like I'm having a go, I'm really just nervous about spending that sort of money.

rinnin

Aug 27, 2003, 06:04 PM

I don't know what this fascination with wireless keyboards/mice is. Personally I see more problems with wireless input devices: e.g. Ever loose the remote? - Now you can loose you're mouse too - that's handy! What about power? Gonna have to buy new batteries some time and what do you do when you cant get to a store when you're right in the middle of important work?
I say keep them wired and maybe add a couple more USB ports if thats what people are worried about!
- Wireless keyboards/mice are just a gimmick for PeeCee users who think it's cool.

What I predict for MacWorld Paris:
• iTunes Music Store for Europe and the World (How could Steve show his face in Europe and applaud the iPod etc without doing this?)
• iPod accessories - maybe a recording device?
• Updated iMacs - Faster processors
• Updated 15" PowerBook - Faster than 12 and 17" but NOT G5!
• Updated Cinema Displays - Higher Res.
• iPhoto book printing for Non-US customers
(• Another surprise for the day before my Bday! - Pleeease)

Dahl

Aug 27, 2003, 06:22 PM

Losing your wireless device ( remote or mouse ) wouldn't be a problem, if they just did what phone designers already are doing by adding a find button to the base. You could have a find button on the keyboard, in case your kid throws the mouse behind the sofa. TV should have find buttons next to the other buttons too, so looking for your remote will be a lot easier.
I don't understand why it isn't used ?

spazum64

Aug 27, 2003, 09:20 PM

I think there'll almost certainly be new Bluetooth mice and keyboards. It's at least confirmed that they exist, as demonstrated by a new preferencepane in recent versions of Panthyre (which is likely to ship there also).

trianglejuice

Aug 28, 2003, 02:47 AM

I just hope Steve talks about the following things in his Apple-Expo Keynote:

iBook G4
Powerbook G4/1,25 GHz
PowerMac G5 DP 3GHz (who knows)
iTunes available in Europe
Free .Mac for people who own more than 5 Macs (haha lol)
Adobe PS 8, IL 11 & ID 3 preview

In a world without walls or fences, what use do we have for Windows or Gates?

TJ.

lord_flash

Aug 28, 2003, 04:35 AM

Originally posted by Dahl
Losing your wireless device ( remote or mouse ) wouldn't be a problem, if they just did what phone designers already are doing by adding a find button to the base. TV should have find buttons next to the other buttons too, so looking for your remote will be a lot easier.
I don't understand why it isn't used ?

To get all sad, it's cos TV remotes are basically just torches that flash different patterns of infra-red light at the telly when you press a button. It doesn't have a 2 way communication with the telly but one set of AA batteries sometimes lasts longer than the telly.

With remote keyboards and mice the story might be different, Bluetooth is two way after all, but that only costs in battery life.

Still, neat idea.

noneis

Aug 28, 2003, 05:12 AM

Originally posted by rinnin
Wireless keyboards/mice are just a gimmick for PeeCee users who think it's cool.

There are plenty of great resons for a wireless mouse and keyboard. Me? I am buying the next version of the powerbook be it G5 or G4, and the wireless keyboard and mouse will...

1.Make it much more comfortable to work while at home (I can plug the pbook into my other monitor, and use a regular keyboard and mouse)
2.Use a REAL mouse while I am anywhere else without dealing with a cable, just pull it out and go(I HATE using touch pads, especially the constant "mistouching" which leads to a mouse jump and the annoying repetitive motions required just to move the pointer around the screen effectivly)

Wireless peripherals are much more than a stupid gimmick for PeeCee users, they make a lot of sence. I know I can count on apple to release a mouse and keyboard that have fully adressed the issue of power. We can all try not to loose our mice.

lord_flash

Aug 28, 2003, 05:18 AM

Originally posted by noneis
We can all try not to loose our mice.

That's right - keep some cheese next to the computer... :)

(Sorry...)

noneis

Aug 28, 2003, 06:32 AM

[i]Just a little bit more hoping that those G5 PowerBooks with Panther pre-loaded and all-new, bug-free iLife apps are worth the wait... ;) [/B]

Lets hope, i have been waiting since last august.

Sun Baked

Aug 28, 2003, 06:49 AM

Originally posted by Dahl
Something big must be coming then.

Oh boy.... http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=380969

Hopefully he isn't making the announcements of speed bumped, minor revision machines in another country to avoid the mobs awaiting "something big."

Should be the expected software speech though.

lord_flash

Aug 28, 2003, 07:00 AM

Originally posted by Sun Baked
Hopefully he isn't making the announcements of speed bumped, minor revision machines in another country to avoid the mobs awaiting "something big."

Now that is cynicism on an advanced level. I'm sure the French will do us proud though, mobs are on of their strong points (national strikes, student riots, storming of the Bastille).

So either fantastic new hardware or a full-scale riot. either way, it'll make a great webcast (if they do it)...

Balooba

Aug 28, 2003, 09:45 PM

Optimistic prediction:

1. iBook G4
2. Beefed up PowerBooks incl 15" AlBook
3. ITMS for Europe and for Windows
4. A new lifestyle Device
5. iPhoto (ordering) for Europe
6. New iPod functions

Balooba

Aug 28, 2003, 09:58 PM

Pessimistic prediction:

1. Endless Panther demo, but no release date
2. Double-clicking on G5 on-stage
3. New iPod firmware with even lower volume
4. ITMS for Europe "early 2005"
5. iChat and iChatAV will cost $99/year
6. Safari to be sold for $99 bundled with Sherlock, iTunes, iPhoto, and Finder
7. Mail.app only available to .Mac members
8. Longest applause when Steve announces the upcoming release of Mac OS X version 10.2.7 "any week from now" featuring G5 support and bug fixes and localized for Simplified Jurmese

panphage

Aug 29, 2003, 04:05 AM

Originally posted by Balooba
Pessimistic prediction:
8. Longest applause when Steve announces the upcoming release of Mac OS X version 10.2.7 "any week from now" featuring G5 support and bug fixes and localized for Simplified Jurmese

oh, man, you just blew me up with this one. "Any week from now." I'm gonna be laughing all nite. Cheers.

trianglejuice

Aug 29, 2003, 04:14 AM

Originally posted by Balooba
Pessimistic prediction:

1. Endless Panther demo, but no release date
2. Double-clicking on G5 on-stage
3. New iPod firmware with even lower volume
4. ITMS for Europe "early 2005"
5. iChat and iChatAV will cost $99/year
6. Safari to be sold for $99 bundled with Sherlock, iTunes, iPhoto, and Finder
7. Mail.app only available to .Mac members
8. Longest applause when Steve announces the upcoming release of Mac OS X version 10.2.7 "any week from now" featuring G5 support and bug fixes and localized for Simplified Jurmese

More pessimistic:

Panther release to be rescheduled
Instead: Mac OS X 10.2.8 codenamed Mac OS XP
The new 15" Powerbook 1,01 GHz with Combo Drive
ITMS not for Europe due to taxes
G4 DP 1,48 GHz "Home Edition"
Huge list of apps that are not supported in Panther
Bill Gates on stage instead of Steve

Or: not receiving my K-ticket for Paris due to Post Office strike.

Sorry, I won't ever be that pessimistic.
Apple, go for it in Paris!

TJ.

AllenPSU

Aug 29, 2003, 07:00 AM

Originally posted by trianglejuice
More pessimistic:

Panther release to be rescheduled
Instead: Mac OS X 10.2.8 codenamed Mac OS XP
The new 15" Powerbook 1,01 GHz with Combo Drive
ITMS not for Europe due to taxes
G4 DP 1,48 GHz "Home Edition"
Huge list of apps that are not supported in Panther
Bill Gates on stage instead of Steve

Or: not receiving my K-ticket for Paris due to Post Office strike.

Sorry, I won't ever be that pessimistic.
Apple, go for it in Paris!

TJ.

Okay, for a little optimism here:

Pathern is released at the EXPO!

Unless you've heard something bad about the beta's... it seem to be on track.

trianglejuice

Aug 29, 2003, 07:58 AM

Originally posted by AllenPSU
Okay, for a little optimism here:

Pathern is released at the EXPO!

Unless you've heard something bad about the beta's... it seem to be on track.
I know, I know, I 've got the very first version of Panther and I have to admit... it'll be great.
I buy my copy at the Expo!

TJ.

ryaxnb

Aug 29, 2003, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by pilotgi
No it doesn't. At 1.2 Ghz it dissipates heat at 19W. That's acceptable for a laptop.
If I were Apple, I would create an "early adopter's" G5, at 1.3 Ghz or so. It would be a bit bigger and heavier than the 15" G4. However, I'm not Apple, so I'm guessing that they will introduce new G4 PB's (1.2Ghz?), if they do. Apple seems to be all right with Moto, but it's ironic; the iMac would be all right with a 1.2/1.3 Ghz G5 (perhaps they need to make it bigger?), but Apple just won't do it.

ryaxnb

Aug 29, 2003, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by soggywulf
The lack of L3 cache in a G5 system may reduce power consumption and counter the increased power consumption of the system controller. The RAM stays the same, so no difference there. Furthermore, PC manufacturers are making fast-bus laptops today with reasonable battery life--if they can do it, so can Apple.

No kidding. The iBooks are extremely long in the the tooth. The obvious answer to your concern is that the current G4 powerbooks (or a 7457 revision thereof) will become the new iBook line, when the G5 powerbooks are released. This will finally put the G4 laptops at the proper price point.

Then perhaps the correct answer to this is to reduce iMac prices as well to bring them more in line with other computers with similar performance.
I have an iBook (got it before WWDC, I believe), but I think (like you) Apple's lines are a complete messup. iMac: Too expensive, too slow, G4 problems. eMac: Last one. iBook: Too slow (though I'm happy). And the G4 isn't the solution... but the G5 is too expensive.