Apple Support: Boot Camp Beta expires as soon as Leopard's released.

[WICKEDfour]

When does Boot Camp Beta expire? (http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=306583)
Boot Camp Beta 1.3, 1.4 expiration

The license to use Boot Camp Beta expires when Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard is available to the public. To continue using Boot Camp at that time, upgrade to Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard.

Here's hoping Apple allows Tiger users to simply purchase Boot Camp 2.0. There's no mention of any such upgrade, but that just means we'll have to play the waiting game. People have already speculated that Apple will do this, a la iChat AV for Jaguar. Heh, if Apple didn't let Tiger users continue to boot their Macs in alternate OS's, there might be a bigger uprising of angry people than iPhone 1.1.1 produced! :p

[yippy]

It is a misconception that BootCamp is running when you boot into Windows. Bootcamp is nothing more than a utility to help you install Windows initially on your Mac (including providing some drivers and partitioning your hard drive).

When BootCamp beta runs out. It WILL NOT affect existing installs. It simply will no longer let you make new Windows installs.

[Fuchal]

It is a misconception that BootCamp is running when you boot into Windows. Bootcamp is nothing more than a utility to help you install Windows initially on your Mac (including providing some drivers and partitioning your hard drive).

When BootCamp beta runs out. It WILL NOT affect existing installs. It simply will no longer let you make new Windows installs.

And of course you can always jsut partition your drive yourself and install Windows without boot camp. :) Even easier if you burn a driver disc ahead of time.

[Bill Gates]

It is a misconception that BootCamp is running when you boot into Windows. Bootcamp is nothing more than a utility to help you install Windows initially on your Mac (including providing some drivers and partitioning your hard drive).

When BootCamp beta runs out. It WILL NOT affect existing installs. It simply will no longer let you make new Windows installs.
We don't even know that. My guess is that it will continue to function as it always has, it's just that the license will prohibit its continued use.

[iJawn108]

if apple killed off booting into windows just right off the bat like that there would be a hell of a lot of unhappy customers with intel macs. Like to the point where it got news coverage. My guess is that there just wont be any new drivers or utilities and you will be stuck using 1.4s.

[Queso]

We don't even know that. My guess is that it will continue to function as it always has, it's just that the license will prohibit its continued use.
Up until the Leopard 1.1.1 update anyway ;)

[Sbrocket]

Considering that the technology that does the BIOS-emulation and lets you boot into Windows is built into the firmware on Intel macs now, there's no way Apple could simply disable Windows booting short of a firmware update that you could just not install until you decided to get Leopard. But even that doesn't make sense. No, this likely just means "The license ends, you shouldn't be using it without Leopard, but there really isn't much we can do to stop you using it. You just won't get any new driver updates."

[chem]

Well, a good way to test this theory would be for someone that was running boot camp 1.2 (which just expired) to chime in on what happened, or for someone to try and install BC 1.2.

[Mac-Addict]

Well for me its a good thing, a reminder I need to buy leopard xD and then I will want a exnternal hard drive for time machine.. and I wanted to save for a 360 :( God damnit :(

[JFreak]

Relax. It only means that Apple will not continue supporting beta software because the beta program naturally ends when the product is released. If you want to have Boot Camp support in the future, you need to be using the Leopard version, which is final.

In theory, Apple will just assume that no beta software is installed once Leopard is out.

[VideoFreek]

Well, a good way to test this theory would be for someone that was running boot camp 1.2 (which just expired) to chime in on what happened, or for someone to try and install BC 1.2.According to ARS Technica (http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2007/10/01/boot-camp-1-2-expires-1-3-and-up-live-to-boot-another-day), the Boot Camp Assistant will no longer open in version 1.2. What will happen when 1.3 and 1.4 expire is unclear, but I'd expect the same.

[Bill Gates]

According to ARS Technica (http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2007/10/01/boot-camp-1-2-expires-1-3-and-up-live-to-boot-another-day), the Boot Camp Assistant will no longer open in version 1.2. What will happen when 1.3 and 1.4 expire is unclear, but I'd expect the same.
I'd be interested in seeing if changing the date on the computer has any effect on either 1.2 or 1.4.

[daveschroeder]

It's probably worth mentioning that an already-installed Boot Camp installation won't just "stop working"; it's just the assistant that will no longer launch after the beta expiration. Leopard, which will include a final Boot Camp, will also ship before the current Boot Camp beta expires. Apple may also decide to offer the "final" Boot Camp for Tiger for a small fee, as was the case with iChat AV; however, it may be that it's officially only available with Leopard. But ALL already-installed Boot Camp setups will continue working indefinitely.

In any event, Boot Camp has always clearly been marked as at-your-own-risk beta software, so regardless of how long it's been around or how many people are using it, there shouldn't be any real complaints about this in my view.

[mmzplanet]

I'd be interested in seeing if changing the date on the computer has any effect on either 1.2 or 1.4.

If that worked... just download the latest Boot Camp and roll date forward one day at at time. When the Boot Camp utility doesn't open "BOOM"... release date for Leopard :p

(I'm sure that would never work)

[sprime1]

I've got BC 1.2 installed on my MBP. Still works fine. I haven't been on my Mac OS side in a while, so who knows what will happen if I boot into Mac OS.

[sprime1]

You think I'd be safe if i installed version 1.4 before it expired? Think it will still run after Leopard is released?

[akac]

When does Boot Camp Beta expire? (http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=306583)


Here's hoping Apple allows Tiger users to simply purchase Boot Camp 2.0. There's no mention of any such upgrade, but that just means we'll have to play the waiting game. People have already speculated that Apple will do this, a la iChat AV for Jaguar. Heh, if Apple didn't let Tiger users continue to boot their Macs in alternate OS's, there might be a bigger uprising of angry people than iPhone 1.1.1 produced! :p

Bootcamp is beta. Its a Leopard feature. Apple will not be making it a feature for non-Leopard users. The drivers for BC 2.0 are on the Leopard CD, not with BC. This has been known from the very beginning.

[hayesk]

if apple killed off booting into windows just right off the bat like that there would be a hell of a lot of unhappy customers with intel macs. Like to the point where it got news coverage.

Yes, just like the ridiculous whining about the iPhone price drop and update. Nevermind that Boot Camp always had a beta moniker and said right from the start that it would expire.

When did people decide they didn't need to be responsible for their own actions?

[BTW]

if apple killed off booting into windows just right off the bat like that there would be a hell of a lot of unhappy customers with intel macs. Like to the point where it got news coverage. My guess is that there just wont be any new drivers or utilities and you will be stuck using 1.4s.


Yep, I don't understand Apple stance on this. They should reward the Tiger beta users with a release version of bootcamp that just isn't supported anymore. Instead they make veiled threats that "Oh that was just a beta and not a Tiger feature to begin with."

They purposely shrink their user base with each OS release. The new Core APIs and XCode are other examples. Microsoft makes their tools and APIs mostly backward compatible so why doesn't Apple at least make an attempt to do the same making easier on 3rd party developers.

[WolfgangK]

so why doesn't Apple at least make an attempt to do the same making easier on 3rd party developers.

It seems, lately, that Apple is less and less inclusive when it comes to 3rd parties...if they could buy Adobe I believe they'd possibly close the entire platform! Very weird climate right now with Apple and 3rd party developers, or maybe it's just looks worse than it is in reality. I don't know anymore.

[junker]

Yes, just like the ridiculous whining about the iPhone price drop and update. Nevermind that Boot Camp always had a beta moniker and said right from the start that it would expire.

When did people decide they didn't need to be responsible for their own actions?

....when George Bush got (re) elected.

[0racle]

If that worked... just download the latest Boot Camp and roll date forward one day at at time. When the Boot Camp utility doesn't open "BOOM"... release date for Leopard :p

(I'm sure that would never work)
If 1.3 and 1.4 had the release date for Leopard, we'd already know what it was. If making the assistant non-functional is Apples intention the update to make that happen will be included in 10.4.11 after Leopard is announced or it already points at some date in the future like next April.

Yes I know you were making a silly joke.

[crossifixio]

I use bootcamp at the moment only for games that is and i cant wait for leopard to come out and then I will be updating straight away but i dont see why people wont still be able to use bootcamp if they dont update :) :apple:

[daveschroeder]

You think I'd be safe if i installed version 1.4 before it expired? Think it will still run after Leopard is released?

Yes. See my above post.

Boot Camp installations will NOT "stop working" when the Boot Camp beta expires. The ONLY thing that will happen is:

- The Boot Camp Assistant will no longer launch, which you will never need again anyway assuming you have everything with Boot Camp set up as desired.

- You may not have an easy way to get updated Windows drivers for Apple hardware (without perhaps "pirating" them from Leopard).

But yes, from a technical standpoint and ignoring any beta or licensing issues, you can absolutely set up Boot Camp right now with the latest installer, and your Windows installation and Boot Camp setup will keep working indefinitely.

[crees!]

....when George Bush got (re) elected.
Thank God for that. (sarcasm... nope.)

[villanova329]

So I guess... if I still have bootcamp installed on my iMac and MBP, and then I do a software update after Leopard...

Apple is going to brick my Macs? ;)


Looks like I have no choice but to buy Leopard....


heh heh heh hehe=)

[raggedjimmi]

No big deal for me as I plan on getting Leopard ASAP. Bootcamp is the reason why I upgraded to Intel Macs, best of both worlds and that.

Everything said - roll on Leopard!

[swagi]

Bootcamp is beta. Its a Leopard feature. Apple will not be making it a feature for non-Leopard users. The drivers for BC 2.0 are on the Leopard CD, not with BC. This has been known from the very beginning.

Actually BootCamp was an Apple style quick reaction to the "Get Windows on my Mac"-contest, which you may remember. Apple managed to sqash all hacking effort in a simple moment by releasing BootCamp.

As soon as BootCamp betas are deactivated, it should only be a little time, 'til a 3rd party solution comes along, which may even be freeware. And with a little bit of googling you should also be fine getting your drivers.

And honestly, if I ever get stuck with not using my BootCamp system (though I don't know how Apple could do that), I will follow the advice, many people gave me here. Yes, I will get a Dell. It's just been one year, and all of a sudden I have two vertical lines on my iMac display. Dell can't be any worse.

And I also think that the BootCamp updates are mainly interesting to people getting new Macs.

[psychofreak]

Actually BootCamp was an Apple style quick reaction to the "Get Windows on my Mac"-contest, which you may remember. Apple managed to sqash all hacking effort in a simple moment by releasing BootCamp.

As soon as BootCamp betas are deactivated, it should only be a little time, 'til a 3rd party solution comes along, which may even be freeware. And with a little bit of googling you should also be fine getting your drivers.

OnMac's (http://www.onmac.net/) solution still works, but its not as comfortable as Boot Camp :)

[rydewnd2]

I've got BC 1.2 installed on my MBP. Still works fine. I haven't been on my Mac OS side in a while, so who knows what will happen if I boot into Mac OS.
You've got a mac and don't go to your "Mac OS side"??? What the hell man?

[daveschroeder]

OnMac's (http://www.onmac.net/) solution still works, but its not as comfortable as Boot Camp :)

"Boot Camp" is an umbrella term for an array of several different things:

- A Mac OS X assistant to make live repartitioning and booting from the Windows installation disc easy

- A BIOS backward compatibility layer for EFI (known as a Compatibility Support Module, or CSM), which is NOT beta and does not expire

- The ability to live-repartition HFS+ disks, which has been possible, though not exposed in Disk Utility's GUI, since Mac OS X 10.4.6, which is NOT beta and does not expire

- Windows drivers for various Intel-based Apple hardware, which do not expire, but may be updated over time

The ONLY thing that "expires" and will stop working after the expiration date is the Boot Camp Assistant. What probably will happen is that there will simply be a substitute for the assistant piece that still uses ALL of the other non-beta components that comprise "Boot Camp" for Tiger users, if Apple itself doesn't choose to release a for-fee version of Boot Camp for Tiger users, as they did in the past with things like iChat AV.

The other issue is that, if Boot Camp isn't officially available to Tiger users, such users won't have access to updated versions of Windows drivers for Apple hardware with new Boot Camp updates (unless they obtain them via some other means; e.g., by illegally pirating them from Leopard's Boot Camp - and yes, they'd work fine on a Boot Camp system alongside Tiger, because they are *Windows* drivers and don't care less about what version of Mac OS X in installed, or even if any version of Mac OS X is installed...and NO, I am NOT condoning such piracy at all, I am simply providing a comprehensive technical answer for completeness).

The lack of continuing access to updated Windows drivers here is the real issue. So while there may be third party solutions that could replace the Boot Camp Assistant's functionality, the only way to get drivers that fully support Apple hardware would be by pirating them (assuming Apple doesn't make a for-fee version of Boot Camp available to non-Leopard users). This might not matter in the short term, but the lack of drivers over the long term will. Obviously some people will choose to pirate them. But for people who want an officially supported environment (research, enterprise, education, etc., users), this won't suffice in the long term.

"Boot Camp", while really just a collection of various technologies that enables Intel-based Macs to easily install and use Windows, has always officially been billed as a "Leopard" feature, even though it has ZERO to do, technically, with Leopard. That's Apple's choice, and people can take it or leave it. Boot Camp has always been clearly marked as expiring, beta, use-at-your-own-risk software that would ship with Leopard.

[Maccus Aurelius]

Are people seriously entertaining the idea that Apple would disable the actual installs of Windows? Need I remind everyone that lots of people actually paid a good sum of money for this OS and that it's a pain to have to reinstall it? I deleted Boot Camp once, while I still had an active Windows XP partition. The install functions whether boot camp is even ON your system, it's just the assistant that goes bye bye.

Anyone out there that took part in the VMware Fusion beta program? :rolleyes:

[daveschroeder]

Are people seriously entertaining the idea that Apple would disable the actual installs of Windows? Need I remind everyone that lots of people actually paid a good sum of money for this OS and that it's a pain to have to reinstall it? I deleted Boot Camp once, while I still had an active Windows XP partition. The install functions whether boot camp is even ON your system, it's just the assistant that goes bye bye.

Anyone out there that took part in the VMware Fusion beta program? :rolleyes:

Oh, I'm sure people think Apple will be "disabling" Boot Camp installs and saying things like, "Just look what they did with the iPhone!" Aside from that being technically impossible (and even impractical and impossible to manage via firmware updates, even if they *did* want to disable Boot Camp installations), no, they won't be "disabling" Boot Camp installations. As you correctly note, the ONLY thing that will stop working is the Assistant, and the other details I outlined in my post above.

Of course, I know I'll come back to this thread later and find that the subsequent responses haven't actually *read* anything in this thread, and will be peppered with garbage like, "OMG, you don't think Apple will disable my Boot Camp, do you!!@!??! I can't upgrade to Leopard because I have an allergy to Leopards, and I spend all of my summer money from my newspaper route on my copy of Windows XP so I could play lame online games with my pimply Windows friends!! Why would Apple just disable Boot Camp out from under me now?!?"

*Sigh*.

[lkrupp]

Yes. See my above post.

Boot Camp installations will NOT "stop working" when the Boot Camp beta expires. The ONLY thing that will happen is:

- The Boot Camp Assistant will no longer launch, which you will never need again anyway assuming you have everything with Boot Camp set up as desired.

- You may not have an easy way to get updated Windows drivers for Apple hardware (without perhaps "pirating" them from Leopard).

But yes, from a technical standpoint and ignoring any beta or licensing issues, you can absolutely set up Boot Camp right now with the latest installer, and your Windows installation and Boot Camp setup will keep working indefinitely.

So if your installation goes belly up for some reason and you need to completely reformat the hard drive (or replace a defective drive with a new drive) how will you re-install Boot Camp and how will you create a new drivers disk in order to re-install the drivers running Tiger? What if driver(s) become corrupted (and you've misplaced or lost or damaged your original drivers disk?

Stuff like this can and does happen every single day to users. And a whole lot of them don't back up anything...ever.:o

[Maccus Aurelius]

http://www.zdnet.com.au/shared/images/products/bootcamp/bootcamp1.jpg

I'm sure all us Boot Campers out there are familiar with this.

[swagi]

"Boot Camp" is an umbrella term for an array of several different things:

- A Mac OS X assistant to make live repartitioning and booting from the Windows installation disc easy

- A BIOS backward compatibility layer for EFI (known as a Compatibility Support Module, or CSM), which is NOT beta and does not expire

- The ability to live-repartition HFS+ disks, which has been possible, though not exposed in Disk Utility's GUI, since Mac OS X 10.4.6, which is NOT beta and does not expire

- Windows drivers for various Intel-based Apple hardware, which do not expire, but may be updated over time

<snip>

The lack of continuing access to updated Windows drivers here is the real issue. So while there may be third party solutions that could replace the Boot Camp Assistant's functionality, the only way to get drivers that fully support Apple hardware would be by pirating them (assuming Apple doesn't make a for-fee version of Boot Camp available to non-Leopard users). This might not matter in the short term, but the lack of drivers over the long term will. Obviously some people will choose to pirate them. But for people who want an officially supported environment (research, enterprise, education, etc., users), this won't suffice in the long term.

Thanks Dave for clearing that up to many people. I'd like to add, that for many existing users this is a non-issue. Most people using BootCamp use it on rather aged machines in terms of computer hardware (with the new Alu iMac being the exception). I can savely say, that I doubt there will be any significant driver update for the hardware of my 1st gen CoreDuo iMac. The hardware is dated, the latest drivers provided should be rather sufficient. And I guess many people are in the same boat here.

And using Windows you should always look out for some system update, that even Apple doesn't supply to you. I may remind all users of BootCamp and the Airport Extreme base station, that they should check out the Microsoft Knowledge Base to get their WPA2 protocol up and running, because it won't work out of the box.

[HLdan]

I've got BC 1.2 installed on my MBP. Still works fine. I haven't been on my Mac OS side in a while, so who knows what will happen if I boot into Mac OS.

It will probably work as a "Mac" like it's suppose to. Sorry but I just don't see a point in buying a Macintosh just to run Windows only as you do. See these shortcomings with Bootcamp and the fact that you have to run Leopard to get the 2.0 version further shows that a Mac is designed to be used a "Mac" and not a Windows machine. With the Mac keyboard layout and Mac Firewire ports it's best to buy a physical PC if you have no intention of using Mac OS X.

[statikcat]

No big deal for me as I plan on getting Leopard ASAP. Bootcamp is the reason why I upgraded to Intel Macs, best of both worlds and that.

Everything said - roll on Leopard!

Yeah.. bootcamp is why the company I work for bought 6 Macbook Pros..running Leopard will not be an issue but not immediately as the software we support will not be on Leopard for a good many months after release. So if someone at work needs to reinstall their system no more bootcamp on 10.4? They should still allow BC to install just consider it d/c.

[HLdan]

And honestly, if I ever get stuck with not using my BootCamp system (though I don't know how Apple could do that), I will follow the advice, many people gave me here. Yes, I will get a Dell. It's just been one year, and all of a sudden I have two vertical lines on my iMac display. Dell can't be any worse.

And I also think that the BootCamp updates are mainly interesting to people getting new Macs.

You are absolutely right in your thinking. Since it's obvious you are like a few others, you have no intention of using your Mac as a real Mac but rather use it as a pseudo Windows machine then get the Dell outta here. :D

[HLdan]

Are people seriously entertaining the idea that Apple would disable the actual installs of Windows? Need I remind everyone that lots of people actually paid a good sum of money for this OS and that it's a pain to have to reinstall it?


May you get reminded that the Apple Macintosh is designed to be used with the OS X operating system and installing Microsoft's funny system is your choice at your own will.

[DaBrain]

When did people decide they didn't need to be responsible for their own actions?[/QUOTE]

It all started with the era of political correctness and like everything else has spun out of control just like our government spending etc.... :rolleyes:

[pagansoul]

Never used Boot Camp even though I liked the idea, I run my XP through Parallels. When I get the new OSX the final version of Boot Camp isn't an issue for me but I'm sure a lot of people who purchased their first Mac over the last year will want some clarification of what will happen if they don't upgrade.

[Maccus Aurelius]

May you get reminded that the Apple Macintosh is designed to be used with the OS X operating system and installing Microsoft's funny system is your choice at your own will.

When I use it, I don't feel much like laughing, though I sobbed a few times.

[daveschroeder]

So if your installation goes belly up for some reason and you need to completely reformat the hard drive (or replace a defective drive with a new drive) how will you re-install Boot Camp and how will you create a new drivers disk in order to re-install the drivers running Tiger? What if driver(s) become corrupted (and you've misplaced or lost or damaged your original drivers disk?

Stuff like this can and does happen every single day to users. And a whole lot of them don't back up anything...ever.:o

Well, first, they'd realize that it was beta software, always known to expire, always known to be a Leopard feature, and in no way supported by Apple.

And if they weren't stupid, they'd keep a copy of the latest Boot Camp installer around, and backed up, and they'd set the clock back on their Mac to perform the installation with the Boot Camp Assistant (and yes, this WILL work, since the Boot Camp Assistant doesn't phone home).

And if they didn't save the latest Boot Camp installer and can't find it anywhere, then see my first paragraph above.

Don't act like Apple is to blame if someone is hell-bent on using as-is, use-at-your-own-risk, unsupported beta software on a Tiger system and doesn't even bother to back anything up to boot.

[HLdan]

When I use it, I don't feel much like laughing, though I sobbed a few times.

Well, there ya go. Once you start drinking the Mac OS Kool Aid you will be laughing a lot more. You will be laughing AT Windows especially at the people that are still sucked up into using it. :D

[mojoxp]

I've got computer lab that I do the technical coordination for, and we've got 70 or so MacBooks that we use for checkout laptops. We image and partition them using NetRestore (fully automated network booted none the less), but we're using all of the Boot Camp drivers and utilities from Boot Camp Assistant 1.4.

Come Leopards releases, am I going to have to purchase 70 licenses of Leopard to keep these guys legal? I realize that it will still "work", but from the way I'm reading it, the drivers and utilities (specifically the ones written by Apple ala the Keyboard Drivers) will no longer be "legal"?

[MacFly123]

You've got a mac and don't go to your "Mac OS side"??? What the hell man?

Ya lol. I can understand if you need to use Windows sometimes for some things. But I know some people that use Windows as the only OS on their Macs even for web surfing and it pisses me off. It's so stupid, they only do it because they are to lazy to learn OS X even though its WAY easier to learn and better. :mad:

[daveschroeder]

I've got computer lab that I do the technical coordination for, and we've got 70 or so MacBooks that we use for checkout laptops. We image and partition them using NetRestore (fully automated network booted none the less), but we're using all of the Boot Camp drivers and utilities from Boot Camp Assistant 1.4.

Come Leopards releases, am I going to have to purchase 70 licenses of Leopard to keep these guys legal? I realize that it will still "work", but from the way I'm reading it, the drivers and utilities (specifically the ones written by Apple ala the Keyboard Drivers) will no longer be "legal"?

Boot Camp was never designed for production use and was always billed as something that goes along with Leopard. That said, many sites are doing exactly what you are. And, Apple still may offer Boot Camp for a small fee to Tiger users, or may do so in selected channels (like education).

In any case, I'd contact the Apple account executive for your institution, and make your concerns known.

[Data]

When did people decide they didn't need to be responsible for their own actions?

I think that was when people embraced religion ;-) .

[iBunny]

http://www.zdnet.com.au/shared/images/products/bootcamp/bootcamp1.jpg

I'm sure all us Boot Campers out there are familiar with this.

You know... Am I the only one who doesn't read these license agreements? I mean who really cares.

[Data]

You know... Am I the only one who doesn't read these license agreements? I mean who really cares.

Indeed.

[HLdan]

You know... Am I the only one who doesn't read these license agreements? I mean who really cares.

If you actually read them you most likely would be the only one. :D

[HSTRIP]

the only thing that bothers me about it is that now bootcamp assistant has expired i can't get rid of my windows partition without buying leopard. Which i may not upgrade to for a while yet. I only use windows now and then for games and i might want that 40GB back before i upgrade to leopard.

[JNB]

It has also been posited (a few months ago) that the Leopard implementation of BC will also incorporate OS management differently as well, somewhere between full reboot and virtualization, wherein you would "sleep" or "hibernate" one OS and switch to the other, still giving full hardware to one OS, while the other would likely be a saved state on the HD. If that were the case, Leopard (for me) would not only a Tiger-killer, but a Parallels-killer as well.

Since I haven't heard a thing about it in quite a while, I suspect that it will remain merely wishful thinking.

[JoeG4]

Fast OS switching was dumped, apparently didn't work well.

Guys, unless you want to have a deleteable windows partition, you can just split your drive into several partitions using disk utility on the OS X disk, and then install windows the same way you installed OS X (insert CD, hold down option, and choose it).

[Hugh]

Can someone please explain to me why people are thinking that Boot Camp is free?

Boot Camp is part of 10.5 and they stated that from the start, and not to mention it's beta software. Therefor it's not supported by Apple at this moment. They most likely support Boot Camp after 10.5 gets released but it would be the version that shipped with 10.5.

This is what's going to happen.

a) Partitioning the hard drive
b) Burning the driver disk that setups Windows up for use on a Mac.
c) Starting the Windows install from Boot Camp instead of just booting with your Windows Install Disk.
C) (MAYBE) You won't be able to restore your Mac's Hard drive partition back as one. With out reforming your hard drive and re-installing every thing (Did you back up your hard drive like Apple told you do? :rolleyes: )

This will NOT effect anyone who has Boot Camp already installed. You just won't be able to get Apple Drivers (There are other drivers out there that some people have been able to find.). You WILL still be able to boot in Windows as long as you do it before Boot Camp 1.4 beta is over.


Hugh

[HSTRIP]

I make fairly regular backups with SuperDuper! just to be safe and i understand that bootcamp is not free and that it was clearly stated in the license agreement that it was beta and for a limited time only. Thats fair enough. But to be forced to reformat the drive and reinstall everything when there was a simple and pain free solution with the bootcamp assistant, i think, is being deliberately awkward. I could understand Apple restricting from any further installs via bootcamp but to force people to go to such efforts to remove it is unnecessary IMO.

[dvince2]

Up until today, I was using 1.1 with no trouble. However, when you try to open the bootcamp assistant in OSX it simply said the licence had run out then closed. So I downloaded 1.4

Question though... after the beta has run out and you can no longer use the assistant, is there a way do destroy the partition and have a hardrive with just OSX on it? or am I stuck with windows until I buy leopard/reinstall 10.4?

[HSTRIP]

once leopard is released bootcamp 1.4's license will expire, so you can't use the bootcamp assistant to remove the partition. You can either purchase leopard, or (if you've got a full backup) repartition your HD which will erase all data, and then reinstall via backup.

[daveschroeder]

once leopard is released bootcamp 1.4's license will expire, so you can't use the bootcamp assistant to remove the partition. You can either purchase leopard, or (if you've got a full backup) repartition your HD which will erase all data, and then reinstall via backup.

You do not have to buy Leopard or reformat your drive.

1. You could simply set the system date back when the Boot Camp Assistant stops working.

2. You could use diskutil at the commandline to live-repartition the disk, which has been supported since Mac OS X 10.4.6.

[daveschroeder]

I make fairly regular backups with SuperDuper! just to be safe and i understand that bootcamp is not free and that it was clearly stated in the license agreement that it was beta and for a limited time only. Thats fair enough. But to be forced to reformat the drive and reinstall everything when there was a simple and pain free solution with the bootcamp assistant, i think, is being deliberately awkward. I could understand Apple restricting from any further installs via bootcamp but to force people to go to such efforts to remove it is unnecessary IMO.

To be clear to anyone reading this, even though I'm repeating myself, you ARE NOT "forced" to do anything you say. When the Assistant from the 1.4 beta finally stops working (it WILL NOT be right when Leopard ships; that's when your "license" to use it technically expires), and you haven't yet upgraded to Leopard, you can still simply set the date back to use the Assistant, or use diskutil via Terminal to live-repartition the disk.

[HSTRIP]

do you know that setting the system date back will work, have you tried it?

I don't know how to use CLI (most people probably don't) is Apple suggesting we should? Sorry but i still think its deliberately awkward.

[Westside guy]

While it's not outside the realm of possibility, knowing how boot loaders work it's hard to imagine Apple disabling your ability to boot into Windows if you've installed it prior to the Boot Camp beta's license expiring.

In any case there is work being done to update the traditional Linux boot loaders like Grub so they'll work with EFI, which is the way of the future for most all PCs - not just Macs. If you've ever used Grub, you know it's quite user-friendly once installed.

But I'd bet those people predicting that Apple won't be making updated device drivers readily available to non-Leopard users are correct.

I stopped using Boot Camp, though, because VMware does the job for me and is much more convenient. For gamers, though, I realize virtualization isn't good enough (yet) performance-wise.

[Nermal]

C) (MAYBE) You won't be able to restore your Mac's Hard drive partition back as one. With out reforming your hard drive and re-installing every thing

Correct. The beta expires on 1/1/08 and the Assistant won't even open after that date. However, you could probably still do it from the command line.

From a strictly legal perspective, does this mean that once Leopard is released, we're then all running unlicensed copies of Boot Camp while we wait for our Leopard boxes to arrive?

[swagi]

You are absolutely right in your thinking. Since it's obvious you are like a few others, you have no intention of using your Mac as a real Mac but rather use it as a pseudo Windows machine then get the Dell outta here. :D

Hi dan,

sorry if it's just that I didn't sleep well this night or that I have to go on an education trip for the next days, but I took your comment rather personal. Normally I would just ignore it, but being a long time reader of Macrumors and following the deterioration of this forum, I feel like I should clear some things up with you.

First of all you don't know **** about my computing situation and my business decisions. Therefore you should not dare to comment on my intentions. But let me enlighten you. Here are the short points:
- Mac user for approx. 8 yrs. (so practically been on the OS 9 side and started with a dual bootable OS X machine with 10.0
- having built up a veterinary practice in the last year
- had to solve some computing decisions being media integration (video material -> chose FCS), direct digital X-Ray (chose Osirix) and having an accounting system (no Mac software available -> hence Parallels, but very slow with main database, hence database server is BootCamped)

When I bought the four iMacs for use in my practice, BootCamp was officially released 1 month for a short time. By that time, there was no arguing, that BootCamp was to be introduced into Leopard. Guess why the version number is BootCamp 2.0! Also there were many resellers, that were advertising their "Ready for Windows"-Macs packages.

So, to bring my point to you, I will educate you on some things:
- the update from 10.0 to 10.1 was FREE (oh...those were the days), it only cost 20 bucks to receive the CD media (btw...the days were only few have broadband connection)
- the first version updates of iLife programs (i.e. iPhoto, iMovie and iTunes) were FREE (though still a lot more functional, than you may think)
- iChat AV was introduced with Panther. There was also a Public Beta Program for that one. People, who chose to skip the Panther update, could buy iChat AV for Jaguar (Mac OS X.2) for 29 bucks
- Apple only slowly integrated known features from OS 9 to OS X, and since Jaguar charged you for every update (10.2 -> spring-loaded fodlers; 10.3 -> Labels)

All I want is an affordable License for BootCamp support without buying Leopard, as I don't need it. And as a small enterprise I don't qualify for family license (otherwise I'd just buy that, and legally install Leopard on all 4 iMacs).

Here's to hoping you don't take the answer too personal.

Cheers,
swagi

[MacBiscuit]

First of all you don't know **** about my computing situation and my business decisions. Therefore you should not dare to comment on my intentions. But let me enlighten you.

Tee Hee

Good for you. It does get tedious reading post after post from people who jump on anyone who even dare mention that they were once in a room with a Windows PC.

I think it would make sense for Apple to release bootcamp for a small fee. After all, one of the main selling points of the Intel Macs was the ability to be all things to all people - most of us cant entirely live without Windows for one thing or another. Apple have heavily marketed this fact and released the beta to win sales to the platform. To then force a paid upgrade to a whole new operating system may be legally fair, but I think it's a PR own goal...

[gnasher729]

Sorry but I just don't see a point in buying a Macintosh just to run Windows only as you do.

Why not? If someone wants to run Windows and nothing else, they would look for the hardware they like best to run it on. And it is hard to beat a 24" iMac, or an eight core MacPro, or a MacBook, or a MacMini.

[damieng]

The Boot Camp Assistant expires January 1st 2008, you can see this by setting your clock forward.

You will also see it works again when you set the clock backwards.

I covered this on my blog at http://damieng.com/blog/2007/10/03/apples-boot-camp-beyond-the-expiry-date

[)amien

[hagjohn]

It's the old "force you to upgrade trick"... no big deal, I was going to anyway.

[Likkie]

Microsoft makes their tools and APIs mostly backward compatible so why doesn't Apple at least make an attempt to do the same making easier on 3rd party developers.

Have you SEEN Windows?

[daveschroeder]

do you know that setting the system date back will work, have you tried it?

Yes. I don't even need to try it to know that it will work, since that's literally the only way it CAN work, given that the Assistant doesn't phone home and the system clock is the only way possible it can know when to expire. (And no, Apple doesn't do things like permanently disable software when the expiration date comes...it is purely a system clock issue, and the clock can always just be set back.) And someone in this thread already confirmed that it indeed works exactly that way.

I don't know how to use CLI (most people probably don't) is Apple suggesting we should?

I didn't say Apple suggested this. I was simply saying that the functionality for live-repartitioning a disk is a supported part of the OS and has been since Mac OS X 10.4.6. And if you don't want to do that, set your system clock back.

Sorry but i still think its deliberately awkward.

Yeah, taking the few seconds to set your date back temporarily if you really need to remove the Boot Camp partition after January 2008 if you STILL haven't gotten Leopard is really an awkward hardship... :-/

All that said, I would not be surprised in the least if Apple releases a utility specifically for Tiger Boot Camp users to do nothing more than remove the Boot Camp partition. Apple doesn't really overlook things like this.

[Orng]

Have you SEEN Windows?

My wife and I were talking about Vista yesterday (it's an IT nightmare for her) and we thought that what microsoft SHOULD have done when they developed Vista, is build it from scratch on a Unix kernel (why not, they've had five years) given it a Windows aesthetic, and allowed users to run their old windows stuff in virtualization. Yeah, I know, exactly like the introduction of OS X 10.0 with Classic mode. They'd get criticised for copying, sure, but they probably wouldn't be hemorrhaging OS market share to Apple right now. Because people would stick with the system they "know" even if it was a whole new system. They only abandon the system they "know" when it lets them down, or better alternatives are becoming impossible to ignore.

I'm glad that Apple is earning a bigger piece of the pie, I'm just theorizing from a business perspective. That's what I would've done if I were Microsoft. And if they HAD done that, it might be appealing to my budget right now. As it stands, I'm scrimping for a new Mac. A decent Unix based Windows... I might have bought one already. (yes, i know I could just go build a Unix box, Ubuntu with Beryl, yadda yadda, I'm talking about the average users)

[sprime1]

Sure, I use Windows XP primarily on my MBP. Why? Well, first of all, the computer itself, to me is flawless, sexy, and not cheaply made (like a Dell, HP, etc.) The quality of Apple products are unbeatable. I wanted to go with a product I know would last me a long long time, for the price I paid. Second, on top of quality, the software I use. I am an architect, and most of my programs I use are Windows based programs. Sure, I use photoshop, but it's easy for me to stay on Windows side to do my work, rather then saving the files i need to an external HD, then switching to Mac side, run photoshop, then wait, oops, i forgot something, so i switch back to Windows and use autocad to get what i missed, save it again, switch to Mac OS, etc.

When I do WORK, i'm on Windows, but if i'm looking to just chat, browse the internet, or listen to music, i'll be on Mac OS. But I primarily use my computer for work, or gaming, so I stay on Windows.

[JudasConstant]

Judging from apples last iphone press relase, I take it this one means my computer will explode if I try to use the beta after the new OS comes out. :)

[ktlx]

My wife and I were talking about Vista yesterday (it's an IT nightmare for her) and we thought that what microsoft SHOULD have done when they developed Vista, is build it from scratch on a Unix kernel (why not, they've had five years)...
I've seen others propose this in the past and it really represents a misunderstanding of the security problems with Microsoft's NT family of operating systems. Vulnerabilities in the kernel itself are rare and really no more frequent than in other kernels.

If every process under Mac OS X, Linux, Solaris, HP-UX, etc. ran with uid=0 and every directory and file under /etc, /usr and /var were given 4777 permissions and almost all applications could execute arbitrary /bin/sh, perl and Python scripts silently behind the user's back, you'd have the same security mess that Microsoft faces.

[Orng]

If every process under Mac OS X, Linux, Solaris, HP-UX, etc. ran with uid=0 and every directory and file under /etc, /usr and /var were given 4777 permissions and almost all applications could execute arbitrary /bin/sh, perl and Python scripts silently behind the user's back, you'd have the same security mess that Microsoft faces.

Uhhhhhhh.... yeah, what he said.


EDIT: I'm not suggesting it would be more secure, just that Windows has the advantage of user familiarity and Unix systems enjoy a vague public perception that they are somehow better/more secure than Windows, although more or less unattainable for, say, My Mom. The unholy alliance of the Windows brand with a Unix Kernel will either negate the existence of the universe, or it will create an environment where people ("My Mom" people, not "us" people) are excited to buy Windows because they think they are getting a super-awesome 21st century OS that is comparable to OSX, rather than how they seem to feel about Windows "Lipstick-on-a-pig" Vista.

It's all about marketing and perspective, your /sqrl and /whatsit are powerless next to My Mom's perception of her OS choices. :)

[Buschmaster]

We don't even know that. My guess is that it will continue to function as it always has, it's just that the license will prohibit its continued use.
What are they going to say? "We want our money back!"

Apple has given us software to use for free on the current operating system that isn't a feature of the current operating system.

Would you guys be mad if they didn't sell you just the new preview or just the new dock? No.

It's good enough we've had the time to use it we have, and think about how many new macs it has probably sold.

[jdechko]

Sure, I use Windows XP primarily on my MBP. Why? Well, first of all, the computer itself, to me is flawless, sexy, and not cheaply made (like a Dell, HP, etc.) The quality of Apple products are unbeatable. I wanted to go with a product I know would last me a long long time, for the price I paid. Second, on top of quality, the software I use. I am an architect, and most of my programs I use are Windows based programs. Sure, I use photoshop, but it's easy for me to stay on Windows side to do my work, rather then saving the files i need to an external HD, then switching to Mac side, run photoshop, then wait, oops, i forgot something, so i switch back to Windows and use autocad to get what i missed, save it again, switch to Mac OS, etc.

When I do WORK, i'm on Windows, but if i'm looking to just chat, browse the internet, or listen to music, i'll be on Mac OS. But I primarily use my computer for work, or gaming, so I stay on Windows.

Out of curiosity (as I'm in the same boat - CAD Drafter wanting to switch) did you try using AutoCAD in either Parallels or VMWare? Do you do a lot of 3D work which precluded you from using virtualization or did you find the performance of virtualization to be inadequate. What version of AutoCAD are you running?

From what I've heard, 2D AutoCAD is acceptable through virtualization, but I realize that any 3D work (which is rare for me) would need to be done natively. Just wondering what your setup is and what your experiences were.

Thanks. :)

[swagi]

What are they going to say? "We want our money back!"

Apple has given us software to use for free on the current operating system that isn't a feature of the current operating system.

Would you guys be mad if they didn't sell you just the new preview or just the new dock? No.

It's good enough we've had the time to use it we have, and think about how many new macs it has probably sold.

Well, actually many people like me would like Apple to sell a BootCamp license seperate to Leopard for say 30 bucks. I guess that would be a fair price.

Given that BootCamp 2.0 will rely on some Leopard only technology, they should simply advance the current BootCamp to 1.5 and sell it as standalone App (like QuickTime Pro) and continue support for it.

Some of us simply don't need Leopard features on some machines while they run it once in a while. But maybe we could have a need for a fully supported (and I don't really care if it's crippled compared to 2.0) BootCamp.

Just my 2 cents.

P.S.: Given those two nasty blue vertical lines on my BootCamped iMac this may also be a non-issue for me, as it will be upgraded to a new one rather sooner than later.

P.P.S.: No, I don't want anything else than an iMac in my workspace. Unfortunately they killed white, as it was the perfect color in a medical environment.

[Consultant]

No, I don't want anything else than an iMac in my workspace. Unfortunately they killed white, as it was the perfect color in a medical environment.

You can get the white iMac still. Go to store.apple.com and look for "special deals" on the bottom right side. Different models come and go. You can also buy it from Apple reseller. Many have some white iMac in stock still.

[HSTRIP]

Yes. I don't even need to try it to know that it will work, since that's literally the only way it CAN work, given that the Assistant doesn't phone home and the system clock is the only way possible it can know when to expire. (And no, Apple doesn't do things like permanently disable software when the expiration date comes...it is purely a system clock issue, and the clock can always just be set back.) And someone in this thread already confirmed that it indeed works exactly that way.



I didn't say Apple suggested this. I was simply saying that the functionality for live-repartitioning a disk is a supported part of the OS and has been since Mac OS X 10.4.6. And if you don't want to do that, set your system clock back.



Yeah, taking the few seconds to set your date back temporarily if you really need to remove the Boot Camp partition after January 2008 if you STILL haven't gotten Leopard is really an awkward hardship... :-/

All that said, I would not be surprised in the least if Apple releases a utility specifically for Tiger Boot Camp users to do nothing more than remove the Boot Camp partition. Apple doesn't really overlook things like this.




No i don't think taking the few seconds to reset the clock is a hardship. I personally thought it wouldn't work, i didn't realize that someone had tried it and it did. Sorry. I've had trialware in the past that i wanted to use a while after the expiration date and have tried resetting the clock to get it to work, it didn't. I just thought this might be what Apple would have done.

If they had, as far as I could see, that would then leave the option of doing it in terminal, which as I said would be to technical for the average computer user, I think. Which is why i felt it was a bit awkward. Never-mind, if setting the clock back works thats fine.

I suppose the other point i could make is that if Apple had made people aware of the exact expiration date, which it seems they have as another poster has mentioned it, then the onus would be on the user to remove the partition if they wanted before that date. So I shouldn't moan. Again I didn't realize they had made the expiration date known.

However, I don't see why they would go to the effort of releasing a separate app to just let people remove the partition. Surely it would be easier to just restrict the ability to burn the driver disk in the bootcamp assistant and let the partitioning tool carry on working so people could remove the Windows partition?

[TBi]

Given that BootCamp 2.0 will rely on some Leopard only technology, they should simply advance the current BootCamp to 1.5 and sell it as standalone App (like QuickTime Pro) and continue support for it.

What leopard only technology does boot camp 2 use? And how does this affect a standalone install of windows?

..

These are trick questions of course because as everyone knows bootcamp is just a nice GUI for a command line application which is built into OSX, and it also makes a driver cd for windows.

Well i know the driver cd can't use any special leopard technology because this wouldn't work in windows.

The GUI though, well they could use core image and make a program which does not actually need all this fancy stuff use it. Although i don't see why they would do this. It would just be a waste of time and energy.

Lastly they could upgrade the program which resizes the hard drive, but there isn't anything really new in leopard in this respect that would make it too "advanced" for tiger.

Well, actually many people like me would like Apple to sell a BootCamp license seperate to Leopard for say 30 bucks. I guess that would be a fair price.

Given that BootCamp 2.0 will rely on some Leopard only technology, they should simply advance the current BootCamp to 1.5 and sell it as standalone App (like QuickTime Pro) and continue support for it.

Some of us simply don't need Leopard features on some machines while they run it once in a while. But maybe we could have a need for a fully supported (and I don't really care if it's crippled compared to 2.0) BootCamp.

Just my 2 cents.

P.S.: Given those two nasty blue vertical lines on my BootCamped iMac this may also be a non-issue for me, as it will be upgraded to a new one rather sooner than later.

P.P.S.: No, I don't want anything else than an iMac in my workspace. Unfortunately they killed white, as it was the perfect color in a medical environment.

If they had, as far as I could see, that would then leave the option of doing it in terminal, which as I said would be to technical for the average computer user, I think. Which is why i felt it was a bit awkward. Never-mind, if setting the clock back works thats fine.

Someone can just as easily make a simple GUI that calls this command line program for you. Even an automator workflow thing could do this. Enter a few numbers and hey presto, you have a new partition. Click a different button and the windows partition disapears!


I suppose the other point i could make is that if Apple had made people aware of the exact expiration date, which it seems they have as another poster has mentioned it, then the onus would be on the user to remove the partition if they wanted before that date. So I shouldn't moan. Again I didn't realize they had made the expiration date known.


Everyone knew it was a beta... so... i don't get this "expiration date" problem...

[Sunnzy]

Some people I know of do buy a Mac just to solely run Windows, they use it as a PC... what is going to happen to those people? A lot of them even removed OS X and use all Disk space for Windows too.

[JiN]

Yep, I don't understand Apple stance on this. They should reward the Tiger beta users with a release version of bootcamp that just isn't supported anymore. Instead they make veiled threats that "Oh that was just a beta and not a Tiger feature to begin with."

They purposely shrink their user base with each OS release. The new Core APIs and XCode are other examples. Microsoft makes their tools and APIs mostly backward compatible so why doesn't Apple at least make an attempt to do the same making easier on 3rd party developers.

------

This is not true. In fact users of MS Visual Studio 2003 and 2005 cannot work on a project together! I use Parallels to load up VS and all of our developers had to switch to the latest VS at the same time because once you convert a project you can't go back.

As for the Core API and XCode changes. I welcome them. I don't think Apple should spend time retro-fitting it for older OS X.

Finally there are lots of features for Vista and is not available for XP and I don't mean the BS Microsoft is pulling with the Games for Vista Only just to push the platform. I mean functions that would take longer to develop or even hampered by the need to support multiple OS Versions.

[cliffjumper68]

When does Boot Camp Beta expire? (http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=306583)


Here's hoping Apple allows Tiger users to simply purchase Boot Camp 2.0. There's no mention of any such upgrade, but that just means we'll have to play the waiting game. People have already speculated that Apple will do this, a la iChat AV for Jaguar. Heh, if Apple didn't let Tiger users continue to boot their Macs in alternate OS's, there might be a bigger uprising of angry people than iPhone 1.1.1 produced! :p

People should be careful as Apple might brick their Mac's in similar fashion to the iPhones. Makes me nervous, I wouldn't update tiger for a while after leopard launches just to be safe. Apple has shown that they do not mind "permanently disabling" your device if they feel you are outside of the EULA. Bite me once shame on you, Bite me twice shame on me.

[JiN]

What leopard only technology does boot camp 2 use? And how does this affect a standalone install of windows?


The one item that was leopard only when Boot Camp was announced but now seems to have disappeared of the Apple site is the ability to put Leopard to sleep and boot Windows and then go back and forth that way. It would mean a bit more HD space for the Windows and Mac Hiberation files and a longer switch time but a performance boost over Parallels and Fusion.

[JiN]

People should be careful as Apple might brick their Mac's in similar fashion to the iPhones. Makes me nervous, I wouldn't update tiger for a while after leopard launches just to be safe. Apple has shown that they do not mind "permanently disabling" your device if they feel you are outside of the EULA. Bite me once shame on you, Bite me twice shame on me.

You are an idiot! You are talking about two different environments. An Open Computing platform vs. a closed smartphone platform.

[sprime1]

Out of curiosity (as I'm in the same boat - CAD Drafter wanting to switch) did you try using AutoCAD in either Parallels or VMWare? Do you do a lot of 3D work which precluded you from using virtualization or did you find the performance of virtualization to be inadequate. What version of AutoCAD are you running?

From what I've heard, 2D AutoCAD is acceptable through virtualization, but I realize that any 3D work (which is rare for me) would need to be done natively. Just wondering what your setup is and what your experiences were.

Thanks. :)

Yeah. I do work in 3dsMAX and Architectural Desktop. I've been told rendering and what not is extremely bad, or doesn't work at all, through virtualization. But I've heard newer versions of Parallels supports 3d or whatever.

Same with gaming... I used to play EverQuest when i first got my computer, couldn't run it with virtualization.

Anyone out there do rendering with Windows based programs using Virtualization software?

[Unseelie23]

We do know that. I have Boot Camp 1.1.2 installed on my MacBook. My Windows partition still works fine. The Boot Camp Assistant, however, says that the beta is expired, so I can't print the docs, partition the machine for Boot Camp, or make driver CDs.

No biggie, I'm downloading beta 1.4 now.

We don't even know that. My guess is that it will continue to function as it always has, it's just that the license will prohibit its continued use.

[sanford]

When does Boot Camp Beta expire? (http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=306583)


Here's hoping Apple allows Tiger users to simply purchase Boot Camp 2.0. There's no mention of any such upgrade, but that just means we'll have to play the waiting game. People have already speculated that Apple will do this, a la iChat AV for Jaguar. Heh, if Apple didn't let Tiger users continue to boot their Macs in alternate OS's, there might be a bigger uprising of angry people than iPhone 1.1.1 produced! :p

It's always been declared it stopped working in September, with the end of Tiger's life cycle. They never promised you could continue dual boot; in fact hey stated the opposite. Almost all beta software expires, that is it locks, when the final product ships. Then of course they had to push that with Leopard's delays, apparently with a non-expiring Boot Camp beta. I'm immediately upgrading our Intel Macs to Leopard, anyway. But still, after the iPhone thing, all the concern about Apple breaking things and the "new" Apple being so dastardly, it looks like here they remind you that your *license* to use the software expires, but they're not going to break your configuration, freeze your Windows use, if you don't upgrade. Just like with iLife and OS X they ask you to buy a 5-install family license for multiple Macs belonging to distinct individuals, but they don't enforce that with Byzantine codes and networked copy protection. You're on your honor. Meet the new Apple, same as the old Apple: iPhone is unique in that it is much governed by obligations to partners, something Apple rarely seeks or establishes.

[Kugo]

Those who broke ranks by wanting to run Windows on their Macs are being punished. Boot Camp was just a trick by Apple to see how loyal their users are. Sadly not many were loyal. Thus begins the cleansing.

[psychofreak]

Those who broke ranks by wanting to run Windows on their Macs are being punished. Boot Camp was just a trick by Apple to see how loyal their users are. Sadly not many were loyal. Thus begins the cleansing.

Boot Camp has probably switched more to the Mac than Leopard will...

[Kugo]

Never attribute to malice, that which may be more adequately explained by incompetence, ignorance, or neglect. - Hanlon's Razor
Why do people take perfectly acceptable and universally accepted sayings and re-craft them (and ruin them) to take their own attribution?

[Orng]

Why do people take perfectly acceptable and universally accepted sayings and re-craft them (and ruin them) to take their own attribution?

I don't know, why do people take a perfectly harmless sig line that isn't bothering anybody, and make an issue out of it?

Why do people need to haughtily resist harmless variations in sayings, colloquialisms and folk wisdom? Don't they WANT language and knowledge to evolve? Are these the same people who get upset that people in my region tell that joke differently from people down around their region?

And why do some people say "some people" when they really mean "you idiots?"

Good questions all, and probably more productive than saying "why don't some people blow it out their hoo-ha." Which would probably result in some people saying "why do some people have to say hoo-ha instead of flow-hole?"

Anyways, I try not to take these things personally; after all, why attribute to malice anything that can be more easily explained by ignorance? Or whichever of the 17 variations of that formula you prefer.

[swagi]

Those who broke ranks by wanting to run Windows on their Macs are being punished. Boot Camp was just a trick by Apple to see how loyal their users are. Sadly not many were loyal. Thus begins the cleansing.

As you spoke those flaming words of wisdom I realized my mistake. I realized, I had to put my main iMac to the treatment, that it deserved.

First of all I digged a hole in the garden, buried it, so just the monitor head looked out and stoned it. Then I built up a heap of failure from all those Windows boxes, I found (stocking it up with old OS X boxes) and burned the iMac on it.

God bless it, on its way to Purgatory!

And as the ashes settled to dust, I felt the warm glowing of our mighty one's RDF, that startet surrounding me again.
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[sosumi1981]

I don't know, why do people take a perfectly harmless sig line that isn't bothering anybody, and make an issue out of it?

Why do people need to haughtily resist harmless variations in sayings, colloquialisms and folk wisdom? Don't they WANT language and knowledge to evolve? Are these the same people who get upset that people in my region tell that joke differently from people down around their region?

And why do some people say "some people" when they really mean "you idiots?"

Good questions all, and probably more productive than saying "why don't some people blow it out their hoo-ha." Which would probably result in some people saying "why do some people have to say hoo-ha instead of flow-hole?"

Anyways, I try not to take these things personally; after all, why attribute to malice anything that can be more easily explained by ignorance? Or whichever of the 17 variations of that formula you prefer.

Now that was funny!!! However Orng, I think you were attributing to malice that which could have been adequetly explained by stupidity! ;)

[Maccus Aurelius]

You know... Am I the only one who doesn't read these license agreements? I mean who really cares.

That's the thing about license agreements, they are binding documents whether or not you care to read them.

The only reason anyone would deem this a negative is because they've grown spoiled and like their new free application, and don't want to have to pay for an entire OS to use the final draft of it. Perhaps this should be a lesson to those that think that these license agreements are meaningless.

[psychofreak]

That's the thing about license agreements, they are binding documents whether or not you care to read them.

The only reason anyone would deem this a negative is because they've grown spoiled and like their new free application, and don't want to have to pay for an entire OS to use the final draft of it. Perhaps this should be a lesson to those that think that these license agreements are meaningless.

Maybe this will spur on advancement for OnMac, the project without which Boot Camp would likely never have existed...

[Orng]

Now that was funny!!! However Orng, I think you were attributing to malice that which could have been adequetly explained by stupidity! ;)

Drat! Hoisted by my own petard!

[kingtj]

Well, technically, shrink-wrap and "click through" license agreements are legally a questionable, gray-area, all in all.

(EG. If you have to simply click an "OK" or "I agree" button to move past one, what if you just let one of your kids do it for you? They're not of legal age to be held to a binding contract, right? And since clicking through it once, during installation or the initial run makes it go away - it never happens to ask YOU to agree to any terms after that.)

By the same token, I imagine there have been cases where a service technician installed some software on a Mac for the owner, and clicked through one of these agreements to do so. Some folks claim they were simply agreeing to the license "on your behalf" - but that seems like a weak argument, unless said tech actually called you to verify YOU were ok with those terms first (or had some kind of written clause you signed in advance, stating he/she could legally act on your behalf to sign for such agreements).


That's the thing about license agreements, they are binding documents whether or not you care to read them.

The only reason anyone would deem this a negative is because they've grown spoiled and like their new free application, and don't want to have to pay for an entire OS to use the final draft of it. Perhaps this should be a lesson to those that think that these license agreements are meaningless.

[Nermal]

This is not true. In fact users of MS Visual Studio 2003 and 2005 cannot work on a project together! I use Parallels to load up VS and all of our developers had to switch to the latest VS at the same time because once you convert a project you can't go back.

At least they've corrected this problem in 2008: You can work on framework 2, 3 and 3.5 apps within the 2008 IDE (and in some cases gain new features even when still targeting framework 2).

[BTW]

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This is not true. In fact users of MS Visual Studio 2003 and 2005 cannot work on a project together! I use Parallels to load up VS and all of our developers had to switch to the latest VS at the same time because once you convert a project you can't go back.

As for the Core API and XCode changes. I welcome them. I don't think Apple should spend time retro-fitting it for older OS X.

Finally there are lots of features for Vista and is not available for XP and I don't mean the BS Microsoft is pulling with the Games for Vista Only just to push the platform. I mean functions that would take longer to develop or even hampered by the need to support multiple OS Versions.


Are you talking about web projects in VS? I've not experienced that on non-web projects. Even so I can still run VS 2005 on 2000, XP, and Vista. Xcode 3.0 is Leopard only.

At least I can get the .Net 3.0 framework for XP even though it is distributed with the Vista OS. Why shouldn't Core Animation be backward compatible with Tiger? Greed?

[gnasher729]

Well, technically, shrink-wrap and "click through" license agreements are legally a questionable, gray-area, all in all.

(EG. If you have to simply click an "OK" or "I agree" button to move past one, what if you just let one of your kids do it for you? They're not of legal age to be held to a binding contract, right? ).

It can be argued that the kids have been acting as your agent; so telling them to click on "I agree" is as good as doing it yourself.

A better method: Find the bit in the installer where the text "I agree" is stored, change it to "I disagree". Start the installer, and click on the "I disagree" button.

Or this method: Turn off your monitor, then start the installer. Click around blindly on your black screen until installation begins.

[TBi]

A better method: Find the bit in the installer where the text "I agree" is stored, change it to "I disagree". Start the installer, and click on the "I disagree" button.

I'm pretty sure that modifying the install file like this is illegal for most programs.

[PhilS1121]

It can be argued that the kids have been acting as your agent; so telling them to click on "I agree" is as good as doing it yourself.

Always good to get the kiddies involved in "fraud" at an early age. :rolleyes: :D

[jdechko]

Maybe this will spur on advancement for OnMac, the project without which Boot Camp would likely never have existed...

I really don't buy that Apple/Intel didn't already know how to (basically) emulate a BIOS from within EFI (the only "tricky" step to Bootcamp). Between the two corporations, I'm sure they'd already figured it out before the official switch announcement was ever made. Apple & Co. were just sitting back, letting the competition run its course. Kinda like a puzzle. After the OnMac competition was over, Apple said, "see, here's the easy way..."

[SolRayz]

When I decide to upgrade to Leopard will I have to scrap my current bootcamp partition and reinstall, in my case, Vista? My inclination is no, but I am not sure. I would hate to have to reinstall Windoze as I only really use it for Flight Sim. So basicaly install Leopard on main partition, update Bootcamp partion drivers in Windows afterwards, correct?

[Westside guy]

People should be careful as Apple might brick their Mac's in similar fashion to the iPhones. Makes me nervous, I wouldn't update tiger for a while after leopard launches just to be safe. Apple has shown that they do not mind "permanently disabling" your device if they feel you are outside of the EULA. Bite me once shame on you, Bite me twice shame on me.

Yes, Lord knows it must've been an intentionally malicious decision by Apple. There can't possibly be another explanation.

Oh, and if you're ever using a Haxie on OS X, and after an OS update things stop working - that's intentional on Apple's part as well.

Conspiracy theories are really handy. They are self-consistent, and don't require a lot of intellectual effort to maintain.