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astray
Aug 27, 2003, 09:38 AM
Taken from MacBidouille, google translation:


[ Rumours ] No PPC 7457 in Aluminum, etc - Ewok - 13:23:26
Motorola would not ensure as envisaged the production of PPC 7457 intended for the AluBooks futures. Consequently, the next ones will embark PPC 7455 B It will result from it from the falls of performances compared to those envisaged (in particular because of 256 KB of mask (L2 cache i think) instead of 512 and lower frequencies), a hot summer days to be dissipated and a reduced autonomy of some pourcents(percents?). The PPC 7457 should nevertheless be available during the last quarter of this year. One can deduce from it that it will be integrated in AluBooks for January.

In addition, of the keyboards and mice without wire could be revealed in September (for APPLE Expo?).



Tiauguinho
Aug 27, 2003, 09:55 AM
LOL! Motorola is so sweet! Thank god for IBM really. Im tired of this game with motorola, its always the same thing. I know that its MacBiddou that has this rumor but nonetheless, its looks just tipical Motorola. Please IBM, hurry up with the 90nm PPC970!

benoda
Aug 27, 2003, 10:00 AM
I said it once, I'll say it again. If I had to wait 9 months for an updated 15" that only has a minor speed bump + 17" technology (DDR, FW800, Al, etc) I'll be sorely disappointed.

nagromme
Aug 27, 2003, 10:09 AM
Waiting for the 7457 has long seemed like the probable reason why Apple hasn't been able to release new PowerBooks.

If it's THIS bad--NO 7457s--then the next PowerBooks may indeed by no more than a stopgap while something better gets ready. They'd better be priced low if the improvement over current models is minor. PowerBooks are entering the phase PowerMacs used to be in.

Lets hope this is the last revision before G5 PowerBooks this winter!

The only G4 PowerBook I'd buy would be a dual-7457 17", or a slimmer, cheaper 12".

pyrotoaster
Aug 27, 2003, 10:25 AM
While this doesn't surprise me, it's not really that bad. We could still see big revisions to the 12" and 15" models.

The 15" will be a major revision just for the fact that it's a new enclosure with new tech. People who think that isn't major are bound to be disappointed no matter what Apple announces.

The 12" Powerbook has quite a few areas for improvement outside the clock speed. Apple could make it thinner, add some needed L3 cache, bump the processor up to 900 MHz or perhaps even a GHz, and maybe even add a backlit keyboard. Sure, that's not a major major revision, but it's a decent sized revision for sure.

Given the 970's heat issues, it's unlikely we'll see it - at least in its current form - in Powerbooks any time soon. Dual-processor laptops are even less likely. Battery life, heat, size, and power issues aside, it would be completely impractical for Apple to produce dual-processor Powerbooks.

Of course, who says MacBidouille is right? ;)

Rocketman
Aug 27, 2003, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by Tiauguinho
LOL! Motorola is so sweet! Thank god for IBM really. Im tired of this game with motorola, its always the same thing. I know that its MacBiddou that has this rumor but nonetheless, its looks just tipical Motorola. Please IBM, hurry up with the 90nm PPC970!

Just lower your expectations on Powerbooks to existing tech for about a year. Get a desktop G5 this year and if you need a Powerbook, go ahead with an existing 12 or 17 and be aware that current speeds really are adequate for all but the top 2% of users.

But when 90nm comes out in mid-2004 or later, you can BET I will be first in line to buy a dozen or so RevA for my company. The TiG4 RevA 400/500 were a no-regrets buy.

Rocketman

AhmedFaisal
Aug 27, 2003, 10:43 AM
Listen, the G5 gets about as hot as the 7455 if not a little less. So if you clock it down to say 1.4GHz it should be just fine. The main thing that I believe will postpone the G5 PB is the design of a completely new Chipset & Mobo, that is what also delayed the G4 Powerbook, nothing else. Will we see a G5 Powerbook, yes and I believe we will see it by the end of this year. The availability of the G4 7457 is in my eyes irrelevant, we will not see this chip in a Mac ever. Why? Because the iMac and eMac will get slow clock G5s (1.3 & 1.6 GHz respectively) and the iBook will stick with the G3. Why G3? Because while everybody has been buzzing about the G5 IBM also has disclosed more details on future G3 development. We are talking 1MB of L2 Cache on Die at full CPU speed, 90nm and clock speed at 1.3GHz while still dissipating not more than 11Watts. Perfect for a small entry level notebook, thats btw. the same clockspeed that the slower Centrinos from Intel have. Along with a 200MHz FSB they will be perfect. And guess what, for G3 beyond Gobi, Altivec has appeared in the Specs, and not Motorola's Altivec, but IBMs Altivec.
Cheers,

Ahmed

nagromme
Aug 27, 2003, 11:16 AM
I do think a dual CPU laptop may well be practical if Apple needs a high-end interim solution:

* If one CPU can fit in the 15", surely two can fit in the 17".

* Cooling can be handled by the 17"'s surface area, plus more fans.

* To drive the second CPU (and its fans) without losing battery life, simply shut down 1 CPU (either enforced or optional) when on battery.

I wouldn't say no to a dual G5 17" next year... and I might settle for a dual G4 this year, if the GPU were high-end enough.

jettredmont
Aug 27, 2003, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by astray
Taken from MacBidouille, google translation:


[ Rumours ] No PPC 7457 in Aluminum, etc - Ewok - 13:23:26
[...]
One can deduce from it that it will be integrated in AluBooks for January.



One can also deduce that, given a few more months delay by Moto, we may never see a 7457 in a production Apple laptop. Ever. And I, for one, would not be upset about it (7457 is such a minor bump over the existing lineup; I seriously doubt that the much-rumored "RM" successor will get out the door at Moto either). I rather expect to see IBM G3+Altivec rechristened G4s (Apple has made it clear that "+Altivec" is the differentiator here, nothing else) and to replace Moto's lineup until Moto gets its act back together or someone else steps in to take over Moto's side of the PPC desktop business.

Moto continues to dig its own grave with a shovel of incompetence and a pick axe of ineptitude.

Powerbook G5
Aug 27, 2003, 11:28 AM
And IBM is the 25 ton weight that falls from the sky and squishes Motorola like a Looney Toon character. :)

jettredmont
Aug 27, 2003, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by nagromme
I do think a dual CPU laptop may well be practical if Apple needs a high-end interim solution:

[...]

I wouldn't say no to a dual G5 17" next year... and I might settle for a dual G4 this year, if the GPU were high-end enough.

But, the key problem with dual G4s is the shared memory bus, which keeps you from getting everything out of those two processors (without this braindead FSB design, I have no doubt that a dual-G4 machine would have absolutely rocked ... as it is a dual-G4 is more responsive than a single G4 but not a whole lot faster overall, and nowhere near as fast as a P4).

Compound that with the more restricetd buses of a laptop in general (for heat reasons) and you have very little benefit from dual G4s in a laptop. There would be a benefit, of course, but not to the degree that you benefit from dual procs in a desktop.

Add to that reduced benefit the cost factors: more expensive (chip+motherboard), requires a MB redesign, consumes twice as much power for the CPUs, etc. I'd be a bit surprised to see dual G4 CPUs in a laptop.

That having been said, I can see Apple doing this, for no reason other than marketting: dual-proc laptops open up a whole world of marketting possibilities. And, frankly, Apple has no other choice other than severely dissapointing speed bumps until the 970 is viable as a laptop proc (yes, peak heat production can be made OK with the 970 if you cut it down to a 1.2GHz clock rate, but there's no stepping down for battery conservation that I've seen, just sleep modes ... and don't compare the G5 to P4 chips; Apple won't be coming out with a 2" thick, 100dB laptop model anytime soon, and that's what those P4s need to be just to whisk away the heat!)

So, chances of seeing it are probably pretty good. Chances of it being worth the money and inevitable hype are generally fairly low (except for some segments of the market).

ZildjianKX
Aug 27, 2003, 12:07 PM
Wow, this would really blow if its true.

For me to buy a new 15"... at least 1 of these three need to be met, which are all respectable I think.

15.4" screen
Radeon 9600
G5

Just if any of those were in it, I'd feel somewhat content... but an old G4 processor, a NVIDIA card, and the same low resolution screen? This is going to be a model to skip.

skymaXimus
Aug 27, 2003, 12:14 PM
Off topic a little bit ... How long was the G4 in desktops before it made it into PowerBooks? I still consider the last version of the Pismo to be one of Apples best laptops ever. Did Pismo sales drop in anticiaption of a G4 PowerBook just like current PowerBook sales are waining? Also, the design of the G4pb vs the Pismo was totally different. I don't think anyone has taken into consideration that Apple just recently released the Alu book and that when the G5 makes it into the PB the design probably won't be of the Alu era. Just random thoughts.

brucku
Aug 27, 2003, 12:29 PM
Are you kidding me.... We wait weeks and months for a Powerbook based on a chip. Then we find out that it won't be in that powerbook... and we still dont have the laptops.

All I want is better airport reception!!! I'd take the bluetooth, the backlit keys, FW800, usb2.0 and aluminum as a bonus.

I don't even care about the speed bump. I just wanted something that was weeks old, not almost a year old. I also dont like the Ti formfactor because it marks the screen.


So i would have bought no matter what they released, i figured this wait was worth it because it was going to mean a new processor with 1.2 or so processor.

So we wait all this time and we are now told there is no new chip ?

I'm a little confused. Is there even going to be a new powerbook ??? EVER???

:confused: little worried because i've been waiting since may.

chazmox
Aug 27, 2003, 12:35 PM
Motorola just takes the cake! The 7457 wasn't much of a technology leap but yet they still manage to screw it up! I was wondering what happenned to the 7457 when TS released the new iMac specs last week showing the 7455.

But if it is the same processor then why all the wait? Maybe heat issues with a higher clocked 7455 have Apple scurrying to design in more heat piping...

I really wonder how much of a jump this model will be... I think it makes using the G5 for the Powerbooks even more of a possibility. There is a slight consumption advantage to the G5 at equivalent processor speed. With a slightly slower FSB then it is just possible. It just depends on when Apple knew that MOT was not going to be there for them and if there was enough time to get new system controller out. I have my doubts and the timeline seems to short, but lets hope...

I've never been one to totally get rid of Motorola as a CPU partner - there are definite advantages to second sources of at least alternate partners. Mainly they keep your suppliers on their toes and keep them from letting the relationship get stale. But, jeez, it's almost like Mot wants to run customers off!

aras
Aug 27, 2003, 12:40 PM
Sad but expected. Still - like the Pismo which was the pinacle of the old powerbook models, I'll buy one of these final gen powerbook g4's - they are well engineered with bugs worked out.

Still living on my lombard, this baby has come a long way - but with a fried cache, its time for a new baby.

jaedreth
Aug 27, 2003, 12:54 PM
Is this a daggar I see before me?

*Slashes Moto into tiny bits*

Jaedreth

StuPid QPid
Aug 27, 2003, 12:59 PM
Our Jobs which art in Cupertino, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in Mac OS X as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily PowerBook rumor. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from Motorola. Amen.

With apologies :cool:

chetwilliams
Aug 27, 2003, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by AhmedFaisal
Listen, the G5 gets about as hot as the 7455 if not a little less.

Please point me to where you got your information on the G5 heat dissipation.

CmdrLaForge
Aug 27, 2003, 01:12 PM
Hello,

I read in a Mac magazine (Macup) that Moto is developing a G4 with a dual core. Process used is 90nm.

That would be a really great chip for the PB and iMacs !

Anyone else who read about that ?

ZildjianKX
Aug 27, 2003, 01:36 PM
Wow, I really do want to buy a powerbook... but come on.

What part of "top of the line" is unclear to Apple? And don't be telling me a 1.2 GHz G4 is top of the line by any stretch.

chazmox
Aug 27, 2003, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by chetwilliams
Please point me to where you got your information on the G5 heat dissipation.


http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/A1387A29AC1C2AE087256C5200611780

Here you'll see on page 14 42Watts listed at 1.8 Ghz and 19 Watts at 1.2 GHz. This document is almost a year old, so at first I discounted it. EETimes came out with higher numbers and the 9 fans in the G5 would seem to indicate higher power consumption, but then this doc...

http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/7874C7DA8607C0B287256BF3006FBE54

Lists the power consumption at 1.8 GHz to be 47Watts. This is a after production run doc so the numbers are probably pretty accurate. We could expect the 1.2 GHz chips to scale to around 22Watts.

I'm sorry, but I've tried to download info on the 7455 from Motorola but I can't get to the page. If memory serves me correctly, the 7455 is around 20 watts at 1 Ghz.

BTW, I'm coming to the conclusion that the nine fans in the new G5 case are for quiet, efficient cooling today but also a look to hotter processors in the next 3-5 years. The case was designed for a long life.

smartperson
Aug 27, 2003, 02:10 PM
I can wait, I suppose...

Whatever comes out will have to be better than what's out there now, or Apple HQ will be burned down by annoyed want-to-be powerbook users...

It'll happen, y'know.

Personally, I agree with Arn on the decision to make this a Page 2 Rumor. I really think no one knows what Apple is up to anymore. It seems like either they have something huge planned and it's ultra secretive or they have nothing planned at all.

Expect either everything or nothing in the months to come. Of course, after the G5 incident, I would bet Apple's become a lot more careful about keeping their internal information just that...internal. I expect nothing, but hope for everything, myself.

I need my 15 inches of Powerbook lovin'! ;)

crees!
Aug 27, 2003, 02:28 PM
http://www.motorola.com/mediacenter/news/detail/0,1958,2687_2175_23,00.html

Motorola Delivers Volume Shipments of Low-K Microprocessors

Advanced Low-K Process Helps PowerPC™ Microprocessors Improve Performance and Reduce Power Consumption

AUSTIN, Texas - June 2, 2003 - Motorola, Inc. (NYSE:MOT) has delivered some of the first volume shipments of microprocessors produced using a low-k insulating dielectric during the metallization process. Motorola has applied this process to PowerPC microprocessor products including the G4 PowerPC processor, Motorola's MPC 7455 and the recently introduced 7457.

Felix_the_Mac
Aug 27, 2003, 02:31 PM
I am a possible switcher.

What I want from my new laptop are:

Wide screen
Good battery life
Not to thick
Built in bluetooth
Built in wireless networking.

So I ened up looking at the Powerbook 15" (..and the rumour sites!)

The OS X is appealing but also will reduce my choice of available software. And buying VirtualPC and Office vX is going to bump up the total cost of the package steeply (not to mention the Airport Extreme base station with modem and maybe a Bluetooth printer)

However, although processor speed is not a defining factor for me a I do want a machine that is going to last 4-5 years, with possible (amateur) video editing and who knows what else in my future I dont want to pay top dollar for a machine that runs like a 1.4 GHz PC.

I would have bought a 1.33 7457 based Powerbook (being 40% faster than the current model, maybe equivalent to a 2GHz PC), but there is no way that I am going to buy a 7455 1.25 GHz powerbook with worse battery life and higher heat production.

The only way that I may buy the (hoped for) new Alu Powerbook before it hits G5 is if the 1GHz AluBook is CONSIDERABLY (25%) cheaper than the current 1GHZ 15".

If not it is a choice of waiting for G5 Powerbook or getting a new PC based laptop.

I dont know if I can wait another 10 months for the G5 ....

crees!
Aug 27, 2003, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by Felix_the_Mac

The OS X is appealing but also will reduce my choice of available software.

Are you a student? What type of software are you looking into? As soon as any new PB comes out I'm switching too.

Sun Baked
Aug 27, 2003, 02:43 PM
LOL...

Looked like it would be the 7455 rev 3.4 (aka rev g) -- from the Motorola site info.

:p

---

Then again, there is info on the Motorola site about the 7457r3.4 chip. And Apple has a habit of sitting on Motorola's release of chip info.

nagromme
Aug 27, 2003, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by Felix_the_Mac
I am a possible switcher.
...
The OS X is appealing but also will reduce my choice of available software. And buying VirtualPC and Office vX is going to bump up the total cost of the package steeply (not to mention the Airport Extreme base station with modem and maybe a Bluetooth printer)
...

What apps do you need that OS X is missing? You will likely find that's not an issue. (And OS X has apps like Final Cut that have no equivalent on Windows.) See: http://osx.hyperjeff.net/Apps/ and: http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/ (VPC is handy--I use it, while my actual PC collects dust--but very slow. Cheapest answer: hang onto your old PC a while.)

Also, note that you aren't limited to choosing an Apple base station--others are cheaper (and may handle simultaneous users less well, but you probably wouldn't care). One good thing about the Apple base station, though: it has a USB port so you can connect many common, cheap USB printers directly to it--wireless printing without the cost of a wireless printer!

chazmox
Aug 27, 2003, 02:47 PM
Can you post links? I have been having problems getting to info on the Mot site...

Thanks!

Sun Baked
Aug 27, 2003, 02:54 PM
A little hard to post the links, can't get to the site...

Can quote an old post again.Originally posted by Sun Baked
INTRODUCTION OF REV G 7455/7445 (http://e-www.motorola.com/files/shared/doc/pcn/PCN9027.htm)

Motorola is pleased to announce the new mask revision for the 7455 and 7445 product families. The new mask revision, 5L64M, is fabricated at MOS13, a Motorola fabrication facility in Austin, Texas. Production shipment using this new mask will begin in July, 2003.

The 5L64M mask revision (Revision G MC7455A/MC7445A, e.g. MC7455ARX1000LG) is designed to replace the 9L96C (Revision C, e.g. XPC7455RX1000LC and XPC7455RX800NC) mask revision. We will offer a Last Time Buy Date on the XPC7455/XPC7445 Revision C device, 9L96C. Last time buy date will be 07/15/2004 with a Last Time Ship Date of 07/15/2005. Heck even this rev G intro doc mentions the chip in the PowerBook (XC7455ARX867WF) is a device affected by the intro of this new mask.

You can even download the 7455 Qualification report (now with 7455 rev 3.4 included)

Or the MPC7450 Family Chip Errata for the MPC7455 and MPC7445 added the rev 3.4 to it's list.

chazmox
Aug 27, 2003, 03:01 PM
Thanks, I wonder what the difference between this rev and the last...

QCassidy352
Aug 27, 2003, 03:02 PM
hahaha, this is too much. It's been 9 + months since the last revision, and at first we figured "well, that's ok because soon we'll have G5 powerbooks." Then, Apple squashed that hope, and people started saying "well, I don't care, I'll take a new G4 with the 7457 as long as they just release it!"

And now... we've been waiting all this time so that Apple can release a 7455 again? they could have done that in January to bring the Tibooks up to par with the 12" and 17"... so we waited all this time for.... NOTHING.

Oh well, maybe in another 9 months we'll have a G5 powerbook and be done with motorola for good. But I'm not counting on it.

centauratlas
Aug 27, 2003, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by pyrotoaster
Given the 970's heat issues, it's unlikely we'll see it ;)

I am curious if you have a source for that because at equivalent clock frequencies the G5 is roughly like a G4. Plus the lack of a G5 cache helps reduce the heat.

This is an urban legend as far as I can tell.

a6rnh
Aug 27, 2003, 03:20 PM
please tell me this is a sick joke or something.....after trawling the rumour sites for months now, al i want is a new 15"AI powerbook!! come on, there must be some MAJOR problems for this thing to be delayed, i cannot wait until seybold or macworld paris....

come on apple, release SOMETHING...even a tin box with a mini-C64 inside....hmmm actually, not a bad idea........

Felix_the_Mac
Aug 27, 2003, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by nagromme
What apps do you need that OS X is missing? You will likely find that's not an issue. (And OS X has apps like Final Cut that have no equivalent on Windows.) See: http://osx.hyperjeff.net/Apps/ and: http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/

I don't have any particular application requirements, and I have no doubt that there are tools available to accomplish whatever I may need to do.
However in the field of Information/Entertainment software I am pretty sure the choice is limited when compared to the PC market. For example can I get the CD from the British National Gallery for the Mac?
Dont bother checking for me :-) I can clearly do that myself, but that is the sort of software I think may be lacking.

(VPC is handy--I use it, while my actual PC collects dust--but very slow. Cheapest answer: hang onto your old PC a while.)
I dont have any windoze apps which require high performance, so I would prefer to give away my old PC rather than have to synch it.

Also, note that you aren't limited to choosing an Apple base station--others are cheaper (and may handle simultaneous users less well, but you probably wouldn't care). One good thing about the Apple base station, though: it has a USB port so you can connect many common, cheap USB printers directly to it--wireless printing without the cost of a wireless printer! [/B]

I would be very happy if you could show me where to get the equivalent of an Apple Airport Extreme with Modem for less money.

Also the USB port does sound very useful.

Originally posted by crees!
Are you a student?

No I am not a student ... I dont think many UK students can afford a PowerBook (I certainly couldnt 15 years ago)

wizard
Aug 27, 2003, 03:44 PM
It is interesting that the G5 is not all that much more power hungry than the current G4's. A G5 Powerbook arrival is going to be gated somewhat by the performance of the support chips. This is where we have little information.

It would sem to me that this newest revision to the G4 sould be a bit more power effiecent. This is a good thing if the apply some of that power budget gain to higher clock rates and a faster GPU.

A 970 based Powerbook may very well be waiting in the wings, but it is very likely that the motherboard layout is a bit differrent than the current G5's. If nothing else they may drop the bus interface ratio to conserve power.

Thank
Dave


Originally posted by centauratlas
I am curious if you have a source for that because at equivalent clock frequencies the G5 is roughly like a G4. Plus the lack of a G5 cache helps reduce the heat.

This is an urban legend as far as I can tell.

ColoJohnBoy
Aug 27, 2003, 03:49 PM
For the love of God, this is getting ridiculous. A 7457 update is really the only acceptable PowerBook update. If it's another 7455, then screw it. My 1 GHz TiBook already gets hot enough (hotter than any 12" PB) and I don't need it getting hotter by adding an extra 250 MHz to the clock speed. I sincerely hope Steve just says to everyone at the Paris Expo that Apple is getting sick of Moto and they're switching entirely to IBM. Add AltiVec to the Gobi G3's for the iBooks and eMacs, put low-clocked G5's in the iMacs and PowerBooks, and the world will be whole again. If Motorola is going to have the same supply issues again as they have been having, it simply isn't worth Apple's time or money to invest any more of either into them.

Pardon my exasperation, but I'm really very annoyed.

nagromme
Aug 27, 2003, 04:05 PM
If the next PowerBooks can deliver increased speed without sacrificing battery life--which is what we'd expect from a 7457--then that could be a fine update, even if what's in there is a 7455B.

We just don't know what the specs will be, yet--or whether MacB is even correct.

HasanDaddy
Aug 27, 2003, 04:14 PM
.....in other Mac News today, Motorola f*cked up again!!!..... back to you.....

panphage
Aug 27, 2003, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by Felix_the_Mac
I don't have any particular application requirements, and I have no doubt that there are tools available to accomplish whatever I may need to do.
However in the field of Information/Entertainment software I am pretty sure the choice is limited when compared to the PC market. For example can I get the CD from the British National Gallery for the Mac?
Dont bother checking for me :-) I can clearly do that myself, but that is the sort of software I think may be lacking.

I would be very happy if you could show me where to get the equivalent of an Apple Airport Extreme with Modem for less money.

Also the USB port does sound very useful.


Yes, you can get the National Portrait gallery catalog CD for mac. :)

Pardon me, but the airport thing, you seen to contradict yourself. First it seems you are complaining about the airport base station increasing your costs, but here you want us to show you a technically equal solution for a lower costs, and your "tone" suggests that it can't be done. If the airport base station is the best solution at the best price AND it has the ability to add a usb printer for wireless printer sharing that you were unaware of, making it and EVEN BETTER solution for the price, where's the problem? :confused:

Lord Bodak
Aug 27, 2003, 04:39 PM
While the 7457 would be nice, I'd still be happy with a 12" 7455 with L3 cache!

Come on Apple, just release them!

MasterMac
Aug 27, 2003, 04:51 PM
I will sure not be happy if they go with the 7455 processor... I've been waiting too long for them to put in that processor. Please apple, show us the wow factor in Paris!

Vlade
Aug 27, 2003, 05:37 PM
Who's going to want the 7457 when they come out, because in about a month after they come out we will have PB G5's

pyrotoaster
Aug 27, 2003, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by centauratlas
I am curious if you have a source for that because at equivalent clock frequencies the G5 is roughly like a G4. Plus the lack of a G5 cache helps reduce the heat.

This is an urban legend as far as I can tell.
You could be right. ;)

My evidence is the fact that the only 970s being used in G5 machines do run hot. That said, IBM could very well produce rumored 1.2 or 1.4 GHz processors that draw less power and actually run just fine in portables.

But if Apple has access to laptop-ready 970s, why would they put G4s in the next Powerbooks?

ZildjianKX
Aug 27, 2003, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by panphage
Yes, you can get the National Portrait gallery catalog CD for mac. :)

Pardon me, but the airport thing, you seen to contradict yourself. First it seems you are complaining about the airport base station increasing your costs, but here you want us to show you a technically equal solution for a lower costs, and your "tone" suggests that it can't be done. If the airport base station is the best solution at the best price AND it has the ability to add a usb printer for wireless printer sharing that you were unaware of, making it and EVEN BETTER solution for the price, where's the problem? :confused:

The airports are actually not great performers for 802.11g, a netgear wireless router is a LOT cheaper and is the top performer. The airport is really advantageous for 2 reasons... 1, built-in modem if you need one (which I believe he does), and 2, it has wireless bridging with other base stations. If you're not interested in either of those (which I'm not), then you're way better off buying something else.

ZildjianKX
Aug 27, 2003, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by ColoJohnBoy
For the love of God, this is getting ridiculous. A 7457 update is really the only acceptable PowerBook update. If it's another 7455, then screw it. My 1 GHz TiBook already gets hot enough (hotter than any 12" PB) and I don't need it getting hotter by adding an extra 250 MHz to the clock speed. I sincerely hope Steve just says to everyone at the Paris Expo that Apple is getting sick of Moto and they're switching entirely to IBM. Add AltiVec to the Gobi G3's for the iBooks and eMacs, put low-clocked G5's in the iMacs and PowerBooks, and the world will be whole again. If Motorola is going to have the same supply issues again as they have been having, it simply isn't worth Apple's time or money to invest any more of either into them.

Pardon my exasperation, but I'm really very annoyed.

Couldn't agree with you more. I'm really wanting a powerbook, but if they don't deliever the goods I'll probably just wait until Mac World this January and if I'm still dissapointed with powerbooks, I'll get a Rev B G5 tower.

tizza
Aug 27, 2003, 06:07 PM
I would just love to have seen some of the conversations between Steve and the head of Moto H/W! Still in all of this Apple has stayed profitable ... and kept most of us reading rumors sites far more than is healthy!

Surely though Apple wouldn't release powerbook revisions in Sep and then new models again in Jan 2004?

ncbill
Aug 27, 2003, 06:13 PM
Nothing's going to last you 4-5 years, especially not a G4 Powerbook.

You'll want to switch to the G5 Powerbook in a year...

>I do want a machine that is going to last 4-5 years

SiliconAddict
Aug 27, 2003, 06:28 PM
Wow this is bad. We can expect Jobs to go on a psychotic killing spree at Motorola soon.
But on the bright side considering the circumstances the courts may only give him a slap on the wrist.

pyrotoaster
Aug 27, 2003, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by ncbill
Nothing's going to last you 4-5 years, especially not a G4 Powerbook.

You'll want to switch to the G5 Powerbook in a year...

>I do want a machine that is going to last 4-5 years
You obviously haven't had a Mac for a long time.

My first Mac, a 1992 Mac Classic II, still runs just fine. My first Powerbook, a 165, works too.

A new Powerbook will probably work for four to five years, it'll just get outdated in that time. ;)

AHDuke99
Aug 27, 2003, 06:52 PM
Don't worry guys, it's going to be a G5. This site has missed this 7 or 8 times and I don't believe this will happen. If it does, I'll be ashamed for Apple and embarassed. Waiting 10 months for the SAME processor is just inexcusible. I highly doubt this. But if this is true by some stretch, this will be one on the most dissapointing releases in Apple's history. And amunst all the hyp right now, this could be a killer.

AllenPSU
Aug 27, 2003, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by Powerbook G5
And IBM is the 25 ton weight that falls from the sky and squishes Motorola like a Looney Toon character. :)

That's good!

wakedog
Aug 27, 2003, 07:31 PM
i'm with the last poster... actually i've given up. i'm going to spend my money on a new p4 machine and then get a g5 laptop sometime next year.

Zuckuss
Aug 27, 2003, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by pyrotoaster

My first Mac, a 1992 Mac Classic II, still runs just fine. My first Powerbook, a 165, works too.


That's right. I'm currently use my pre-usb beige G3 tower at school while waiting for a 15" AL p-book. It still works better than my roomate's brand new peecee. By the way, my Uncle owns the first ever Apple laptop and it still starts up just fine. :)

neutrino23
Aug 27, 2003, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by AHDuke99
Don't worry guys, it's going to be a G5. This site has missed this 7 or 8 times and I don't believe this will happen. If it does, I'll be ashamed for Apple and embarassed. Waiting 10 months for the SAME processor is just inexcusible. I highly doubt this. But if this is true by some stretch, this will be one on the most dissapointing releases in Apple's history. And amunst all the hyp right now, this could be a killer.

Do you have some proof for this assertion? In the past the G4 was stuck at 500MHz for something like 18 months. IIRC there was actually a time where the spec went backwards to a lower clock rate (550 -> 500?). This thing with the 15" PB is bad but we've seen worse.

My take on the G5 PB is that the G5 itself might be marginally acceptable, but the faster clocked interface chips and memory draw more power so that the overall power consumption exceeds the power budget target.

cb911
Aug 27, 2003, 09:07 PM
i'm sure that Apple would have released the new PowerBooks by now if it was at all possible. this is a situation that they would do everything to avoid.

the 7457 was originally said to be shipping in the 4th quarter, then they thought that they could get it out in Q3, then the problems with low yields, so they moved back to the original date of Q4. since the original shipping date for the 7457 was Q4, you'd think that Apple would plan their release of the new PowerBooks around that date. so if they knew that the 7457 would be here in Q4, i doubt that they'd sit around, waiting until then to update the PowerBooks.

personally, i'm still optimistic of G5 PowerBooks in September somtime. but i guess we'll see if MacBidouilles report of 7455s in the new PowerBooks is true if more sources start saying that as well.

sacrilicious
Aug 27, 2003, 09:53 PM
I'm not asking for a 1.8Ghz G5 or a 15.4" screen or a really fancy video card. I just want Apple to update the freakin' machine with whatever they have working.

MattG
Aug 27, 2003, 10:10 PM
I really hope Apple is just throwing us all for a loop and is going to introduce something BIG in the coming months. A G5 Powerbook, even if it were reduced down to a 1.2ghz processor, would kick some serious ass.

ZildjianKX
Aug 27, 2003, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by MattG
I really hope Apple is just throwing us all for a loop and is going to introduce something BIG in the coming months. A G5 Powerbook, even if it were reduced down to a 1.2ghz processor, would kick some serious ass.

For Apple being primarily a hardware company, they're starting to suck at it, at least in their portables line. I'm starting to look at the G5 towers, and a 1.2 GHz G4 PB seems really sad.

I still have a little bit of hope that Apple will wow me... but its starting to fade fast. If Apple falls way short with the next PB upgrade, I'm going to feel pretty burned (like many others). I don't think anything short of a G5 processor could wow anyone after almost 10 months of waiting.

pigwin32
Aug 27, 2003, 11:56 PM
A faster processor would be nice but I desparately need decent airport reception, a superdrive, and a larger hard drive. Plus I've got a wad of cash burning a hole in my bank account. <sigh /> Of course the longer the delay the less desparate my need. Eventually I will come to my senses and spend the money on something important.

macounaima
Aug 28, 2003, 12:45 AM
I don't believe a second there will be a WOW surprise G5 at the PAris expo. I'm sure Steve is already using one but it's all about money.
They're gonna milk it for what it's worth. If they are suckers like us (and I am one of them) ready to buy whatever comes out they'd be stupid not to do it.
I let's hang on and wait for the G5, force them to put it out ASAP because of bad G4PB sales.

Gericault
Aug 28, 2003, 01:06 AM
Originally posted by Vlade
Who's going to want the 7457 when they come out, because in about a month after they come out we will have PB G5's

They won't come out with a G5 PB a month after a new PB release. Think of all the xtra stock they would have of the old PB be. That would be a truly stupid business manuever. They can't have survived as a company that long by making that kind of decision. Whatever happens I doubt the G5 will come for a long time. Just my guess but it seems like a G5 PB is too good to be true for any time in the next year or so.

Marble
Aug 28, 2003, 01:29 AM
All of the Powerbooks can be ordered with a Superdrive, and they all seem to qualify for decent airport reception as well (the 15" has a construction issue that can be simply solved by removing the battery and pressing along the edges of the indentation). Is an external drive not an option for extra hard drive space?

fraggle
Aug 28, 2003, 02:49 AM
Originally posted by neutrino23
My take on the G5 PB is that the G5 itself might be marginally acceptable, but the faster clocked interface chips and memory draw more power so that the overall power consumption exceeds the power budget target. [/B]

The 12" and 17" already use DDR memory but can make no use of it. A low clocked G5 would take advantage of that memory and AFAIK DDR RAM actually uses less energy than SDRAM (lower core voltage).

Plus a G5 does not need a level 3 cache which reduces power consumption of the system (of course only compared to the 17").

neutrino23
Aug 28, 2003, 03:08 AM
Originally posted by fraggle
The 12" and 17" already use DDR memory but can make no use of it. A low clocked G5 would take advantage of that memory and AFAIK DDR RAM actually uses less energy than SDRAM (lower core voltage).

Plus a G5 does not need a level 3 cache which reduces power consumption of the system (of course only compared to the 17").

I'll freely admit I don't know the details of the design and I am speculating about this. Having said that...

The G5 clocks the bus at half the CPU clock. Let's say the G5 is clocked at 1.2GHz to keep the power consumption down. Now the memory is being clocked at 600MHz - about four times faster than it is clocked in the 17" PB. This faster clock will drive up power consumption.

I make the same argument for the peripheral chips around the G5. They are running at a much faster clock than those of the 12" or 17" PB and so should use more power.

You do make a good point about the lower core voltage of the memory.

Only the Apple engineers know for sure.

Mezzo
Aug 28, 2003, 03:16 AM
Do you guys don´t think of the possibility that the 12" Book may become an iBook because there is no reason to keep up the G3 any longer.

Even in the past the difference between an iBook and the 12" Powerbook was not that big for the difference in the price.

So I think that Steve will announce the 12" Book as the future iBook and 15" + 17" will become the new line für Powerbooks

groovebuster
Aug 28, 2003, 03:57 AM
Originally posted by ncbill
Nothing's going to last you 4-5 years, especially not a G4 Powerbook.

You'll want to switch to the G5 Powerbook in a year...

It really depends on what you are doing with your Powerbook. My G3 Wallstreet is still in service and a decent machine for word processing, e-mails, a little surfing the web and fast Pohotoshop corrections (if the files are not too big) under MacOS 9. I even use Mac OS X on it (even though it is anythging but fast) to run LaTeX for a documentation project. Right now I am using Safari on that Wallstreet to post this message.

Everything else is done on decent desktop systems, since I don't need to do programming, video or music editing on a portable...

So you see... my Powerbook is 5 years old now and I don't see any reason so far to get rid of it... Maybe next year, when Apple has something interesting to offer again or the machine is just starting to work not reliable anymore. But in the meantime it's all I need and I am sure there are lots of people who are in the same position as I am ...

groovebuster

ssamani
Aug 28, 2003, 04:52 AM
Originally posted by Vlade
Who's going to want the 7457 when they come out, because in about a month after they come out we will have PB G5's

Motorola's embedded processor market where they are now focusing their development efforts. Performance isn't an issue, FSB speeds aren't an issue, their clients don't lose market share, share price or credibility because they're not on 3Ghz chips. There is only two issues they care about: power usage and heat dissipation.

Perfect market for a company using somebody else's processor design but can't deliver on updates....

Analog Kid
Aug 28, 2003, 04:52 AM
Anybody else see this as potentially good news?

I've been making strong arguments that the G5 won't be suitable for laptops for at least a year and I'm sure Apple marketing sees some life left in the PBG4 if chips were available, but if Mot is bungling things this badly and Jobs lives up to his reputation as a vindictive sob, I can see Mot getting black listed as soon as Jobs can manage it.

Let's say the 7457 really is a mess, but the 7455 using low-k dielectric is ok. Educated users can get the current 1GHz PBs at cut rate. They speed bump the 7455 to get the Alu PB out, spend 4-6 months working with IBM to build a portable chip set then put the G5 PB out ahead of schedule?

I don't think they'd do this because the G5 is the better technical choice at that point (I still think it would be too hot) but just to cut out Motorola.

Given the hype people seem to feel for the G5 they'd probably sell, even with the problems they'd cause, and the power users might be happy if they keep a phone book on their lap to insulate from the glowing Aluminum shell.

By the time people start to think it might have been a bad call, the updated G5 is out 6 months after that, the design is balanced again, and everything's happy.

Yeah, it's a stretch, but I'm just trying desperately to find a ray of hope...

At the very least, maybe they'll restart production of the current line and cut prices to keep up demand until things work out. Maybe put the G5 in the 17" only?

AllenPSU
Aug 28, 2003, 06:09 AM
Originally posted by ncbill
Nothing's going to last you 4-5 years, especially not a G4 Powerbook.

You'll want to switch to the G5 Powerbook in a year...

>I do want a machine that is going to last 4-5 years

That depends on what you want to use them for. We currently use three computers, two of which are more than 5 years old. In fact I have a 11 year old PowerBook 180 that still does the rounds. (Takes care of all that floppy disk stuff and occasionally is used as remote web browser and word processor).

AllenPSU
Aug 28, 2003, 06:12 AM
Originally posted by wakedog
i'm with the last poster... actually i've given up. i'm going to spend my money on a new p4 machine and then get a g5 laptop sometime next year.

Don't do it! I've had a P4 laptop (provided to me while I am at my current job), and it is aweful. My last windows based laptop was better, but not much. Settle for an iBook before you go with a P4.

AllenPSU
Aug 28, 2003, 06:18 AM
Originally posted by fraggle
The 12" and 17" already use DDR memory but can make no use of it. A low clocked G5 would take advantage of that memory and AFAIK DDR RAM actually uses less energy than SDRAM (lower core voltage).

Plus a G5 does not need a level 3 cache which reduces power consumption of the system (of course only compared to the 17").

The minor power savings you're talking about are insignificant compared to the extra 10-20 watts a G5 will need. If you can get a G5 to run around 10-15 watts, you could might make it work with good power management within the OS.

I with the crowd that believes we will have to wait for the smaller fabrication process before we see a G5 in a laptop.

cb911
Aug 28, 2003, 06:44 AM
i read somewhere a while ago that the 970 had some specially developed power conserving features, as if it were designed specifically as a mobile chip. and doesn't the PowerMac G5 scale down the clock speed when it doesn't need the processing power?

G5 PowerBooks might be closer then many people think.;)

RichardCarletta
Aug 28, 2003, 06:50 AM
Reduce the 12" Powerbook combo drive by $300 down to $1300 , reduce the 15" 1GHZ Powerbook superdrive by $600 down to $2000 , eliminate the 12" superdrive and 15" combo powerbooks, introduce 15" and 17" 1.33 GHZ Powerbooks and Apple could kiss the iBook good bye.

Do you really think that could happen ? :p

Sun Baked
Aug 28, 2003, 06:57 AM
There's a bit on the update G5 developer docs...Processor and Bus Slewing

To lower power consumption, heat generation, and fan noise, the Power Mac G5 computer incorporates an automatic power management technique called bus slewing. Bus slewing is designed to run at high processor and bus speeds and high voltage when the demand on the processor is high, and to run at low processor and bus speeds and low voltage when the demand on the processor is low. Switching between different processor/bus speeds and voltages is achieved by a gradual transition that does not impact system or application performance and operates seamlessly to the user. In slewing, the bus runs at half the speed of the processor.

The ranges of the slewed processor speeds are listed below:
Configuration Processor range
1.6 GHz 1.3 GHz to 1.6 GHz
1.8 GHz 1.3 GHz to 1.8 GHz
2.0 GHz 1.3 GHz to 2.0 GHzIn addition, the Power Mac G5 computer allows the user to control bus slewing mode. The options for specifying either high, reduced, or automatic processor and bus speeds are located at System Preferences>Energy Saver>Options; then select Automatic, Highest, or Reduced.

If the Power Mac G5 computer detects a system temperature that is too high, due to high ambient temperatures or other factors, it will automatically enter bus slewing mode regardless of the selected setting.

Processor States

The following processor states are defined:

* Run: The system is running at maximum processing capacity with all processors running at full speed.

* Idle: The system is idling; this is the default state. All clocks are running and the system can return to running code within a few nanoseconds. If the system has no work to do, it will be in idle mode.

System Modes

The Macintosh system has the following power-saving modes. If the system does not support full sleep, it will use the less efficient doze mode.

* Run: The system is fully functional in normal operating mode with all components powered and operating.

* Doze: The power to the disk drive motors and the display is turned off, but the power supply and fans are still on. PCI cards that don't support full system sleep (some SCSI cards, some graphics cards) will cause the machine to doze rather than fully sleep.

* Full sleep: The main power supply is shut down. A trickle supply provides auxiliary power to the PCI slots and keeps the DRAM state preserved for a quick recovery. All processors are powered off with their state preserved in DRAM. All non-essential clocks in the system are suspended. This mode allows the computer to meet Energy Star sleep requirements while providing the ability to start up without rebooting. This system may be awakened by administrative network packets, keyboard or mouse activity, USB device removal, or PMU scheduled wakeup.

* Off: The Power Mac G5 computer meets FEMP (Federal Energy Management Program) requirements and supports FireWire ports functioning as repeaters when operating on AC power.

CmdrLaForge
Aug 28, 2003, 07:35 AM
Originally posted by ColoJohnBoy
For the love of God, this is getting ridiculous. A 7457 update is really the only acceptable PowerBook update. If it's another 7455, then screw it. My 1 GHz TiBook already gets hot enough (hotter than any 12" PB) and I don't need it getting hotter by adding an extra 250 MHz to the clock speed. I sincerely hope Steve just says to everyone at the Paris Expo that Apple is getting sick of Moto and they're switching entirely to IBM. Add AltiVec to the Gobi G3's for the iBooks and eMacs, put low-clocked G5's in the iMacs and PowerBooks, and the world will be whole again. If Motorola is going to have the same supply issues again as they have been having, it simply isn't worth Apple's time or money to invest any more of either into them.

Pardon my exasperation, but I'm really very annoyed.

I can really understand that you are disappointed about Moto, but never forget. Moto is a big player. And they have the ability to catch up. Rumors are saying that it was not the engineers at Moto but the Managers you made the wrong decisions. In the long run (next 5 - 10 years) it would be very wise for Apple to work with two suppliers and not only one. If they had only one - it could kill Apple. E.g. IBM decides in 5 years not to support Apple any longer. You can never know.

CoreForce
Aug 28, 2003, 07:57 AM
Hi there,

IBM just release new compilers for the G5 that bring dramatic power to this chip.

http://www.heise.de/newsticker/data/as-28.08.03-000/

translated to english:
http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/urltrurl?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.heise.de%2Fnewsticker%2Fdata%2Fas-28.08.03-000%2F&tt=url&lp=de_en


Any investment to the G4 is a waste of money. Just my 2 cent.

groovebuster
Aug 28, 2003, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by CmdrLaForge
I can really understand that you are disappointed about Moto, but never forget. Moto is a big player. And they have the ability to catch up. Rumors are saying that it was not the engineers at Moto but the Managers you made the wrong decisions.

Well, Motorola layed off a lot of staff in their microprocessors devision because their quarterly results were written in deep red ink for a while. Fact is, that they just don't have the manpower anymore to develop processors in a decent time frame.

Originally posted by CmdrLaForge
In the long run (next 5 - 10 years) it would be very wise for Apple to work with two suppliers and not only one. If they had only one - it could kill Apple. E.g. IBM decides in 5 years not to support Apple any longer. You can never know.

And that leads to the second problem... Motorola's target market is embedded systems and not CPUs for personal computers (anymore). That's where they make the big bucks. Apple is just a little customer for them, purchasing the G4 from them. And Apple is also the only computer manufacturer using a Motorola CPU in their machines. The R&D costs to keep the G4 up-to-date as a PC CPU are in no relation to the revenues. Doing the split all the time to develop their CPUs for embedded systems and to keep Apple happy is unreasonable from an economical point of view. Motorolas road-map already reflects where they make their money. Considering their situation it is understandable why they neglect the development of their CPUs for use in PCs, even though we (as Mac users) are not too happy about it. Motorola has share holders too that need to kept happy and when you have a part of your product portfolio that costs you more than you earn with it, you just get rid of it... That's how business is.

For IBM it is much less critical to go with Apple, because they develop CPUs for use in computers (mainly servers) anyway. They have a totally different approach to the problem, since the PPC970 is "just" a crippled Power4 processor. Motorola has the problem that they don't have a high end product like that to take advantage of.

So at the moment it seems that Apple has no choice than being in bed with only IBM on the long run. And to speculate about what's happening in about 5 years is unnecessary, since it is pure speculation anyway. But that Motorola will be back in the ring with a competitive PowerPC processor for PCs is as unlikely as MS would make Office a Mac-only product... Except Apple would gain a market share of 30% or other computer manufacturers would start to use PowerPCs again as well. But that's pretty unlikely as well, since they would never have an acceptable ROI.

Regards,

groovebuster

Ben Sheehan
Aug 28, 2003, 09:30 AM
Originally posted by AhmedFaisal
We are talking 1MB of L2 Cache on Die at full CPU speed, 90nm and clock speed at 1.3GHz while still dissipating not more than 11Watts. Perfect for a small entry level notebook, thats btw. the same clockspeed that the slower Centrinos from Intel have. Along with a 200MHz FSB they will be perfect. And guess what, for G3 beyond Gobi, Altivec has appeared in the Specs, and not Motorola's Altivec, but IBMs Altivec

Bring this on. If Apple bumped the resolution on the 14" ibook and released it with these specs, I'd fall over myself on the way to the store. Heck, they could release it in a powerbook and I'd buy it (though I realize that just ain't going to happen). 11 Watts - imagine using a laptop in summer without burning your knees, and hey, isn't the G3 faster than the G4 clock for clock anyway :)

stockscalper
Aug 28, 2003, 09:34 AM
I got three words to say about this ....


REMEMBER THE BLACKBIRD!

LOZ23
Aug 28, 2003, 09:43 AM
I remember when the powerbook was viewed with awe. Now you can get the same processing power from the almost bottom of the range emac. The emacs are cheap systems designed for schools to surf the web and use light apps. Pbooks should have a faster processor than apples bottom of the range models!!!

Maybe it should be renamed the ebook

ZildjianKX
Aug 28, 2003, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by LOZ23
I remember when the powerbook was viewed with awe. Now you can get the same processing power from the almost bottom of the range emac. The emacs are cheap systems designed for schools to surf the web and use light apps. Pbooks should have a faster processor than apples bottom of the range models!!!

Maybe it should be renamed the ebook

Man, I agree with you. Its disgraceful. There is a HUGE gap between top of the line Apple towers and laptops... absolutely huge.

agentmouthwash
Aug 28, 2003, 10:52 AM
I think the thing that bugs me the most is the fact that the new powerbooks will most likely still have a 1 button mouse.

Ok I've been using Apple computers since the Apple IIe in 1983, way before they even invented the mouse and I know Apple's stance on the multi-button thing how they are hard for beginners..
but that's what the iBook is for.

leave one button on the iBook and
update the PRO models with two.

Too bad Steve doesn't read these posts...

dCube
Aug 28, 2003, 12:20 PM
Ok wild speculation on the ParisExpo announcements here, I haven't read it anywhere else:

- minor retouching to the hardware (except for the PB15 enclosure), I hope for 7457 but 7455 B could be it

However:

- major bragging about improved battery life and lower heat on the "new and vastly improved powerbooks"

How?

Software. I've read somewhere that Panther is supposed to be more battery/mobile friendly, that alone might make battery life double and heat dissipation halven (it's not like you can do one without the other).

Waiting for a PB12 myself.

manu chao
Aug 28, 2003, 03:08 PM
BTW, the IBM compilers ported to OS X mentioned earlier in this thread, were announced two months ago by macbidouille (27 June). I had not seen anybody else reporting this back than. That much about the credibility of macbidouille's sources.

pigwin32
Aug 28, 2003, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by Marble
All of the Powerbooks can be ordered with a Superdrive, and they all seem to qualify for decent airport reception as well (the 15" has a construction issue that can be simply solved by removing the battery and pressing along the edges of the indentation). Is an external drive not an option for extra hard drive space?
20-20 hindsight, I should have ordered my TiBook with the superdrive, I didn't. Airport reception is crap and a known issue with the 15". I'm not sure what exactly pressing along the edges of the indentation of anything is going to fix. I understand the airport reception issue is related to the 15" case acting like a Faraday Cage. An external drive is potentially useful but another cable and an additional widget in my bag. Anyway, a year later and I'm ready to spend some money to alleviate these frustrations.

AllenPSU
Aug 28, 2003, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by CoreForce
Any investment to the G4 is a waste of money. Just my 2 cent.

But if its the only thing out there at this time... what choice do we have if we cannot wait?

nitropowered
Aug 28, 2003, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by skymaXimus
Off topic a little bit ... How long was the G4 in desktops before it made it into PowerBooks? I still consider the last version of the Pismo to be one of Apples best laptops ever. Did Pismo sales drop in anticiaption of a G4 PowerBook just like current PowerBook sales are waining? Also, the design of the G4pb vs the Pismo was totally different. I don't think anyone has taken into consideration that Apple just recently released the Alu book and that when the G5 makes it into the PB the design probably won't be of the Alu era. Just random thoughts.

It was two years before the powerbook g4 came out after the powermac g4 was released. But considering how long apple has been working with IBM to develop the G5, it should not take that long to make a pb G5. As for th pb g4, I would say the they would need the 7457's, at least 1ghz in the 12" and faster 1.25 or 1.33 in the 15 and 17, otherwise its not worth buying one.

DrBoar
Aug 29, 2003, 03:56 AM
The fact that the G4 was very slow in coming to the PB was partly due to the fact that it took a very long time for the G4 to get past the G3 in performance. The G3/450 tower came early 1999 and it was two year later before the G4 went past 533 MHz (to 733). So cramming a hot G4 offering SMP (useless) and Altivec (almost useless back in 1999-2001), into a BP to replace a cooler G3 was not a smart thing.

As opposed to the G3-G4 transition the IBM 970 seem to offer a substantial performance gain right from the start. So there is a good reason to try to get the 970 into everyting ASAP.

Regarding the latest Motorola CPU debacle, what ever CPU they will offer it will be for one last speed bump of the current lineup of PB, iMac and eMAc and the next time it will move to the iBook (perhaps). If the G4 would promise to leap toward the 2 GHz line and then not show up that would be a dissapointment but a low power version going from 1.0 to 1.25 GHz or so:confused:

If 1.0 GHz is to slow so will 1.2-1.3 GHz be

Plutoniq
Aug 29, 2003, 04:09 AM
Buy a used 400mhz Powerbook Pismo for $700 bucks, throw 1gb of Ram in it for, say, $150 (Trans INTL), buy a 2x Superdrive from ESBUY.com for $300 (Easy install into Expansion bay), Buy a VTBookDD 32mb DDR DVI cardbus graphics card (Available Soon), throw an internal Airport card into her ($65 used)......sit on that for a few months till Powerlogix incorporates the 1.1ghz IBM PowerPC 750GX (1mb 1:1 L2 cache) into their Pismo Blue Chip upgrade, priced around $340....or just the current 900mhz 750FX upgrade thats available.

Lets see, thats like a $1500 investment......a profesional-grade Apple Powerbook, with a beautiful 4th generation IBM G3 Gobi CPU (it will happen). Aside from the lack of a hardcore 3d GPU (Rage 128 mobility is still decent though), you've got a damn fine machine for a nice price.

Vlade
Aug 29, 2003, 06:02 AM
Originally posted by Plutoniq
(Rage 128 mobility is still decent though)

If you wanna play 3D Pong maybe :p

AllenPSU
Aug 29, 2003, 06:57 AM
Originally posted by DrBoar
If 1.0 GHz [G4] is to slow so will 1.2-1.3 GHz be?

I don't know. I have a Quicksilver Desktop (867 single processor G4, 1.2 GB Ram) and ran into my first real limiting project. I just upgraded to a superdrive and burned my first DVD... that took nearly 40minutes to render and burn. I know about 20 minutes of that was wasted on 1X media, but the rendering took a long time too.

Not sure if a boost up to 1.3 GHz will make that much difference but losing Altivec might hurt a lot.

rickag
Aug 29, 2003, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by groovebuster
... Apple is just a little customer for them, purchasing the G4 from them. And Apple is also the only computer manufacturer using a Motorola CPU in their machines. The R&D costs to keep the G4 up-to-date as a PC CPU are in no relation to the revenues...
Regards,

groovebuster

A few months back Motorola published total sales figures for their G4. Motorola triumphantly claimed total sales @ about 7 million. Over the course of its' life Apple purchased right at 50% of those. So I really tend to disagree with your position.

While Motorola does indeed sell a very large number of processors, most are very low cost, with razor thin margins, EXCEPT for the G4. The G4 is their high dollar processor and does represent significant revenue AND APPLE WAS PURCHASING HALF OF THEM.

If Apple can or is willing to replace the G4 completely, it will be a large blow to Motorola in revenue and esteem in the industry.

Sun Baked
Aug 29, 2003, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by rickag
If Apple can or is willing to replace the G4 completely, it will be a large blow to Motorola in revenue and esteem in the industry. Especially if the LinuxPPC whitebox market follows Apple's lead in moving to the PPC970 -- and there have been hints that there will be some thirdy-party controllers for the PPC970.

This market isn't standing still either -- Mai Logic added PCI-X to their G3/G4 Northbridge controller.

And if Amiga ever can get AmigaOS 4.0 out the door, there's another chunk of lost revenue for Motorola -- if Amiga makes the switch to the PPC970 rather quickly. And since Amigas are mildly modified LinuxPPCs, it could happen rather quick.

ozlow
Aug 29, 2003, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by agentmouthwash
I think the thing that bugs me the most is the fact that the new powerbooks will most likely still have a 1 button mouse.

Ok I've been using Apple computers since the Apple IIe in 1983, way before they even invented the mouse and I know Apple's stance on the multi-button thing how they are hard for beginners..
but that's what the iBook is for.

leave one button on the iBook and
update the PRO models with two.

Too bad Steve doesn't read these posts...

Two button mice are queer! Long live the one button mouse! Plus, there's always the control key...right?

AhmedFaisal
Aug 29, 2003, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by ozlow
Two button mice are queer! Long live the one button mouse! Plus, there's always the control key...right?

Actually it depends very much on the context, as for an external mouse, one that you push around on a mousepad or a trackball, 2 buttons are a good thing to have. on a laptop however, they are an ergonomical nightmare. I find it annoyingly hard on PC notebooks to switch between right and left button with my thumb while I move around on the touchpad or trackpoint with my index finger, here I like the way Apple has it with one button plus ctrl for the context menu much better.
Cheers,

Ahmed

Stelliform
Aug 29, 2003, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by astray
Taken from MacBidouille, google translation:


[ Rumours ] No PPC 7457 in Aluminum, etc - Ewok - 13:23:26
Motorola would not ensure as envisaged the production of PPC 7457 intended for the AluBooks futures. Consequently, the next ones will embark PPC 7455 B It will result from it from the falls of performances compared to those envisaged (in particular because of 256 KB of mask (L2 cache i think) instead of 512 and lower frequencies), a hot summer days to be dissipated and a reduced autonomy of some pourcents(percents?). The PPC 7457 should nevertheless be available during the last quarter of this year. One can deduce from it that it will be integrated in AluBooks for January.

In addition, of the keyboards and mice without wire could be revealed in September (for APPLE Expo?).

He missed the last sentence in the first paragraph....

Mais il reste plus probable qu'Apple décide de laisser alors tomber le G4 pour passer au G5 dans les portables.

translated....

But this makes it more probable that APPLE decides to drop the G4 to put the G5's in the portables.

Pure speculation... But they are thinking what we are thinking....

groovebuster
Sep 1, 2003, 05:50 AM
Originally posted by rickag
A few months back Motorola published total sales figures for their G4. Motorola triumphantly claimed total sales @ about 7 million. Over the course of its' life Apple purchased right at 50% of those. So I really tend to disagree with your position.

Total sales figures can be misleading. In the early days of the G4 Apple probably purchased way more than 50% of the G4 production. But the G4 is on the market since 4 years. Especially the last one and a half years I highly doubt that the chunk of the total production Apple bought from Motorola was anywhere close to 50%, since PowerMac sales alsmost stalled compared to the beginning. And even if it was 20% of all G4s, then put it into relation to the number of G4s sold by Motorola during that time... especially considering the truly high costs to keep the processor up-to-date. Also don't forget that Apple already switched a while ago to G3s completely from IBM. In the beginning Apple purchased G3s from IBM and Motorola. I highly doubt that switching the entry level Macs (like eMac and iMac) to G4s are making up for these losses.

Originally posted by rickag
While Motorola does indeed sell a very large number of processors, most are very low cost, with razor thin margins, EXCEPT for the G4. The G4 is their high dollar processor and does represent significant revenue AND APPLE WAS PURCHASING HALF OF THEM.

Again: overall sales numbers don't tell the entire truth. I agree that the G4 used to be the cash cow for Motorola, but that is exactly the problem. They can't take a permium anymore for dated technology. Considering what these processors offer (bang per buck) they are way overpriced. And one key argument in the beginning was, that the PowerPC is cheaper than a comparable Intel/AMD chip. That was maybe true for the first 6 months after the G4 was introduced. They could lower the prices, but than they make even more losses and have even less money for R&D. But if they keep their high prices, nobody will buy their crap anymore. Too bad...

Originally posted by rickag
If Apple can or is willing to replace the G4 completely, it will be a large blow to Motorola in revenue and esteem in the industry.

I wouldn't go that far... for the rest of the industry there are alternatives to the G4 and already Apple switching the PowerMacs to the G5 is a clear signal where the journey goes. It is up to Motorola to develop a competitive succesor to the G4 that is optimized for usage in Laptops and portables. If they blow it, nobody will be overly surprised and I am sure that IBM is willing to close the gap for Apple. Maybe they even buy the G4 assets from Motorola to integrate them into future developments... but actually I don't see the need, since IBM has enough Know-How (e.g. G3) in-house already.

groovebuster

pgwalsh
Sep 1, 2003, 01:32 PM
I recall this being a rumor from MacBidouille and do not recall it being set in stone. So, I'm not sure why so many people are getting overly worked up about it. Maybe they're saving the introduction for MacWorld Paris? If nothing is said on September 16th (my birthday) then get worked up abou it.

I know the wait sucks.

rickag
Sep 2, 2003, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by groovebuster
Total sales figures can be misleading. In the early days of the G4 Apple probably purchased way more than 50% of the G4 production. But the G4 is on the market since 4 years....
groovebuster

Total G4 lprocessor Sales as stated by Motorola = 7 million

Apple has sold about 3.5 million G4 processors in their computers.

That puts Apple buying about half of all G4 processors ever sold.

The only other major customer for the G4 listed in Motorola's press releases was CISCO. There may be others, but Motorola has not seen fit to announce them. I think you also underestimate the current total sales of G4's to Apple and overestimate sales to other customers. Anyting above 1.0GHZ and quite possibly 800MHz would be too hot for the embedded market, and the fastest processors, 1.25/1.42GHz would still command the highest prices.

The iMac was until the G5 the # 1 selling Apple computer. Combined with the towers especially the duals my bet is that Apple was still buying half Motorola's production(sheer speculation).

Most Motorola processors cost significantly less than the cheapest G4, the embedded market doesn't need cpu's. Two years ago, a Motorola annual report listed their top five customers, in no apparent order, and Apple was listed in that group.

And no, I'm not dredging up the links, but they are fact.:D

pigwin32
Sep 2, 2003, 11:46 PM
Aargh, MacBidouille (http://www.macbidouille.com/niouzcontenu.php?date=2003-09-03#6482) is reporting no portables before mid-October because Motorola hasn't been able to produce 7457's in sufficient quantities. And the 7455B's are unusable in portables due to the amount of heat generated. They report their source for this information is weak, just thought I'd fan the flames... They do however suggest IBM's .09 micron G5's will be ready for preview in February.
Disclaimer: my French language skills were last updated in 1986, translation may be haphazard.

eric67
Sep 7, 2003, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by pigwin32
last updated in 1986, translation may be haphazard.

no matter, go to hardmac.com then you can read macbidouille.com in english....

eric67
Sep 7, 2003, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by astray
Taken from MacBidouille, google translation:



go and read hardmac.com this is the english version of macbidouille.com; this will definately avoid problems due to automatic translation (google and others)

by the way, there will probably be some new PB Ti at Apple Expo Paris, this is almost certain; the only point still to clarify is ....with which processor.

crees!
Sep 7, 2003, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by eric67
by the way, there will probably be some new PB Ti at Apple Expo Paris, this is almost certain; the only point still to clarify is ....with which processor.

15.4" Al with all the standard goodies? yes.
What processor? who knows, we're all just going to have to wait.