Pro tools vs logic 8 ?

[HazzFq]

has anyone compared these two programs? if so lets hear it :D

[BadDude]

I'm currently running M-Powered Pro Tools 7.1 on OS 10.4 but I'm strongly considering switching to Logic Pro 8. I investigated Logic after the price drop but found it does a lot more too.

Pro Tools:
-32 tracks (only 16 stereo), this becomes problematic with aux. bus.
-no OMF/AAF support out of the box ($500USD plugin LE only)
-no 5.1
-Only supports digidesign or m-audio hardware (might not suit your needs)
-Only 1 MIDI instrument out of the box (a very recent addition)


Logic:
-255 mono or stereo tracks, 64 buses
-OMF, AAF and XML support out of the box
-up to 7.1 mixing out of the box
-use a variety of hardware
-backwards compatible with garageband
-comes with a heck of a lot of instruments (both MIDI and DI)

I haven't used Logic 8 yet, I'm a little weary of the new interface, particularly the single window design. I hope there is a way to have all tools in their own windows again.

The only thing keeping me on Pro Tools for now is using FX Pansion's VST to RTAS wrapper, but to get full functionality of this plug-in I have to run Windows on my iMac. The opensource Windows VST community is really quite amazing.

[scottlinux]

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=349825

There is overlap and you can do the same thing in both. BUT IMO:
Pro Tools: audio (if you are into pure studio work)
Logic: midi (music creation)

Yes the track limitation in the affordable versions of Pro Tools are embarrassing. The free program Ardour has more I/O. Bigger studios all use Pro Tools HD setups for recording, so if what you are into is recording pure audio, mixing, etc. I'd say invest in Pro Tools, as that is what is out there.

But for samples, midi, soft synths, and other music creation Logic is much better, from that standpoint. Film composers writing with samples use Logic for composition as working with velocity layers and editing midi is very good. MIDI timing and accuracy is very tight in Logic, but has show stopper bugs (http://duc.digidesign.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1121850) in Pro Tools where midi cannot stay in sync.

[webraider]

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=349825

There is overlap and you can do the same thing in both. BUT IMO:
Pro Tools: audio (if you are into pure studio work)
Logic: midi (music creation)

I Disagree.. I do all of my Audio mixing in Logic 8 now.. It has a workflow that I like better. Logic is by far the better Software all around. Logic 7... Pro-tools still had an edge but not any more. Apple just knows how to do a GUI. It's old school thinking to say that Logic is better for Midi and Pro-Tools is better for Audio. I think we've finally gotten past this

[chasemac]

I have Pro Tools with the 002 rack and it is great. Yet, I purchased Logic Studio and it is becoming my favorite. Lot's of effects and Main Stage is cool. You get a lot for the purchase and there is no usb key verification thing that sucks with protools. If you have a couple of Macs with Logic, you can run it in node mode. Sharing the resources of the spare Mac. A late model Mac and 2-4 Gb of RAM with a decent audio card and HD space. Rock on! Get it. Midi audio is good too.;)

[synth3tik]

Pro-Tools was good up until 1997, since then the only reason it still is around is that people have spent hundreds of thousands on it and years learning it. Pro tools is rather archaic for the times.


EDIT:BTW, I got Logic 8 the day after it was released. Oh man it is so FRICKEN sweet!

[Joe Bannon]

Pro Tools:
-32 tracks (only 16 stereo), this becomes problematic with aux. bus.
-no OMF/AAF support out of the box ($500USD plugin LE only)
-no 5.1
-Only supports digidesign or m-audio hardware (might not suit your needs)
-Only 1 MIDI instrument out of the box (a very recent addition)



This is wrong. I've seen studios use Apogee with PT, and as many tracks as their Mac could handle.

PT is a lot better than logic since it has it's own hardware. But we use Logic Pro 8.

Look at this board.... kick ass...

http://www.digidesign.com/index.cfm?langid=100&navid=15

Logic doesn't have it's own hardware.

[Sceneshifter]

Hey Badude, just to let you know, the new interface (which I prefer) is actualy easily set to the way it looked before. EVerything that has been 'simplified' if you wish to call it that, can still be done the same way it was done before. But you'll quickly see the simplified is actualy streamlined, it's really nice.

[Cromulent]

This is wrong. I've seen studios use Apogee with PT, and as many tracks as their Mac could handle.

Guess what? They were using Pro Tools HD which costs in the thousands. Compared with Logic Studio 8 which costs much much less.

Why is having its own hardware better? Surely being able to use any hardware that you wish is much better. Being locked into one set of devices is bad for choice.

[Joe Bannon]

Guess what? They were using Pro Tools HD which costs in the thousands. Compared with Logic Studio 8 which costs much much less.

That's because they pay for the cards as well.


Why is having its own hardware better? Surely being able to use any hardware that you wish is much better. Being locked into one set of devices is bad for choice.

You can use other hardware with PT HD like Apogee.

[Cromulent]

You can use other hardware with PT HD like Apogee.

In addition too, not exclusively. That is my understanding.

[Joe Bannon]

In addition too, not exclusively. That is my understanding.

Actually, you can use something else exclusively. The Kitchen here in Dallas does, they use the Apogee Rosetta (x5) with the cards in their Mac Pro. Sounds really good with Pro Tools.

[zimv20]

Actually, you can use something else exclusively. The Kitchen here in Dallas does, they use the Apogee Rosetta (x5) with the cards in their Mac Pro.

and those cards are made by digidesign. one can run PTHD w/o digi converters, but there still has to be digi hardware. i assume that's what you meant.

[Joe Bannon]

and those cards are made by digidesign. one can run PTHD w/o digi converters, but there still has to be digi hardware. i assume that's what you meant.


You'd have to ask them about the cards, I never opened their mac. My point is that you don't have to be 100% digidesign hardware chain and not have use their converters. IMO, the rosetta 800 is better.

[zimv20]

You'd have to ask them about the cards, I never opened their mac. My point is that you don't have to be 100% digidesign hardware chain and not have use their converters.

and guess what, no one said or is saying the entire chain has to be digidesign, so who exactly are you trying to argue with?

the cards in the mac are digidesign; i'll save you the trouble of opening the case.

[Joe Bannon]

and guess what, no one said or is saying the entire chain has to be digidesign, so who exactly are you trying to argue with?

the cards in the mac are digidesign; i'll save you the trouble of opening the case.



LOL. Read BadDude's post, he said it. I really don't care about looking, so it's not an issue. My whole point of posting in this thread was for BadDude, so I'll shut up now. CYA.

[Drumjim85]

LOL. Read BadDude's post, he said it. I really don't care about looking, so it's not an issue. My whole point of posting in this thread was for BadDude, so I'll shut up now. CYA.

dude... please learn/think before you start arguing your points..

Baddude was using LE.. and you have to have a m-audio or digidesign sound card to open up PT-LE .... sure, you can feed other converters into that sound card digitally.. but you still have to have their hardware...

PT-HD is a whole different story..

[Joe Bannon]

dude... please learn/think before you start arguing your points..

Baddude was using LE.. and you have to have a m-audio or digidesign sound card to open up PT-LE .... sure, you can feed other converters into that sound card digitally.. but you still have to have their hardware...

PT-HD is a whole different story..

No way dude! -lol. Dude, that is such a waste of a good vocabulary.

The name of the thread is "Pro Tools vs Logic 8", not "Pro Tools LE vs Logic Express".



And on that note, I can tell when I'm not wanted in this thread. TTYL.

[zimv20]

LOL. Read BadDude's post, he said it.

he said PT required digi or m-audio hardware. this is true. but you went about arguing it...

This is wrong. I've seen studios use Apogee with PT

... and now you're pretending you didn't.

so what exactly do you do in that studio when you're not opening up macs?

[Drumjim85]

so what exactly do you do in that studio when you're not opening up macs?

:D:D

[nedlear]

Is this thread done?

If it is, does anybody know a link of an informative thread on this question?

cheers

[bov]

hahaha i would like to know the answer too.

of course, although there is no answer, i would like to hear more peoples opinions

[WinterMute]

Both apps allow recording on multiple audio tracks dependent on hardware inputs, both allow MIDI data to be recorded and edited, both are non-linear environments, both allow mixing using native and 3rd party plug in, both handle video well, both are simple to use and difficult to master.

Protools limits you to Digidesign hardware that you have to have connected (but can use a range of attendant hardware) Logic allows the use of a lot more 3rd party hardware (inc MOTU and Apogee, prism etc.) There is little wrong with Digi's hardware for project level work, but it's not good enough for high level recording, same is true for the budget Logic compatible hardware.

Both allow HD recording dependent on hardware (up to 192Khz on both systems), and it's entirely possible to begin, edit and mix an entire project in either one exclusively.

You still need to understand recording technique, composition, editing and mixing theory and practice in order to get the best out of either of them.

To my ears, Logic 8 sounds like a toy, this is an observation from a Logic user from 4 onwards, Logic 7 sounds fine, but Logic 8 sounds too close to the artificial sound of Reason and GarageBand to me.

Protools sounds like whatever you put into it, which is what I need from a platform.

The choice (as has been noted here) is about you working style. If you are composing I suggest that Logic (or Neuendo or DP5 or even Abelton Live) is a better choice out of the box and gives a lot of bang for the buck. If you are recording Protools offers a linear workflow and a set of editing tools that Logic has only just caught up with. If you are mixing, neither is really good enough, as they are both native and use the computers on-board processors, mixing in Protools or Logic can only really be achieved without pain on an HD or similarly DSP-rich system.

This is a professional viewpoint. No major studio has one or the other, they have both, and others too. Digi have been at some pains to offer hardware that interfaces well with other software and hardware, and this is the reality of the situation.

Ask yourself what you need to achieve, and for your own sake use your ears, not just the feature list and your eyes.

[zimv20]

Both apps allow recording on multiple audio tracks dependent on hardware inputs, both allow MIDI data to be recorded and edited, both are non-linear environments, both allow mixing using native and 3rd party plug in, both handle video well, both are simple to use and difficult to master.

Protools limits you to Digidesign hardware that you have to have connected (but can use a range of attendant hardware) Logic allows the use of a lot more 3rd party hardware (inc MOTU and Apogee, prism etc.) There is little wrong with Digi's hardware for project level work, but it's not good enough for high level recording, same is true for the budget Logic compatible hardware.

Both allow HD recording dependent on hardware (up to 192Khz on both systems), and it's entirely possible to begin, edit and mix an entire project in either one exclusively.

You still need to understand recording technique, composition, editing and mixing theory and practice in order to get the best out of either of them.

To my ears, Logic 8 sounds like a toy, this is an observation from a Logic user from 4 onwards, Logic 7 sounds fine, but Logic 8 sounds too close to the artificial sound of Reason and GarageBand to me.

Protools sounds like whatever you put into it, which is what I need from a platform.

The choice (as has been noted here) is about you working style. If you are composing I suggest that Logic (or Neuendo or DP5 or even Abelton Live) is a better choice out of the box and gives a lot of bang for the buck. If you are recording Protools offers a linear workflow and a set of editing tools that Logic has only just caught up with. If you are mixing, neither is really good enough, as they are both native and use the computers on-board processors, mixing in Protools or Logic can only really be achieved without pain on an HD or similarly DSP-rich system.

This is a professional viewpoint. No major studio has one or the other, they have both, and others too. Digi have been at some pains to offer hardware that interfaces well with other software and hardware, and this is the reality of the situation.

Ask yourself what you need to achieve, and for your own sake use your ears, not just the feature list and your eyes.

this post should be stickied.

[dLight]

To my ears, Logic 8 sounds like a toy, this is an observation from a Logic user from 4 onwards, Logic 7 sounds fine, but Logic 8 sounds too close to the artificial sound of Reason and GarageBand to me.


Hi, there's is no measurable degradation of the sound in Logic compared with Logic 7. GarageBand is a stripped down version of Logic, developed by the same people, with the same audio engine (but with a different user interface)...

People who have been wasting as many hours on various pro audio forums as I have, have probably noticed that when Logic 8 came out, a number of users claimed that it sounded better than Logic 7, but I guess that's just a psychological thing, because it looks more "professional".

BTW, Mipa (http://www1.mipa-award.de/2008/winner.htm) this week gave their annual award for best recording software to Logic 8 (Pro Tools 7.4 came in as #2, Nuendo 4 became #3).

[bov]

hmm well i guess i am just forced to learn and master both!

quite a task that lies before me :D

[WinterMute]

Hi, there's is no measurable degradation of the sound in Logic compared with Logic 7. GarageBand is a stripped down version of Logic, developed by the same people, with the same audio engine (but with a different user interface)...

People who have been wasting as many hours on various pro audio forums as I have, have probably noticed that when Logic 8 came out, a number of users claimed that it sounded better than Logic 7, but I guess that's just a psychological thing, because it looks more "professional".

BTW, Mipa (http://www1.mipa-award.de/2008/winner.htm) this week gave their annual award for best recording software to Logic 8 (Pro Tools 7.4 came in as #2, Nuendo 4 became #3).

As I said to my ears. Do you have research to back up your initial claim? If so, I'd like to see it please.

The audio playback from logic is fine, it's the synth/sample/loop/fx sounds that bother me, maybe I should have been clearer.

For many years I was critical of ALL non-linear and digital recording platforms, as they simply didn't sound as good as a well maintained 2" 16 or 24 track analogue recorder, particularly with the last generation of tape formats. However the advent of HD recording and a better understanding of AD/DA conversion has placed Protools (and others) in the position of being a perfectly acceptable replacement for my trusty Studer 820. If pushed I still admit to preferring the sound of analogue tape, but the sheer productivity of Protools et al is hard to ignore

In the end you use what you want to, based on your needs as a musician/engineer/producer.

[dLight]

As I said to my ears. Do you have research to back up your initial claim? If so, I'd like to see it please.

Hi again,


The synth sounds in these three programs are centered around the same plugins, the same sample and loop libraries, and the fx also come from the same code, coded by the same people - which basically are the same Emagic guys that worked (and sill work) in Rellingen, Germany, with a few exceptions. If you would install Logic and Garage Band two different hard drives, and check eg. the sample library, you'll see that the files they share have the same size, length, creation and modification date. Logic 8 has a few goodies that Garage Band doesn't, like the Space Designer - which used to be a separate plugin costing several hundreds dollars, but this is a reverbs that sounds better than the GB reverbs. The JamPacks that are included with Logic 8 are the same JamPacks that were included with Logic 7, except that they take a little less space on your drives due to Apple's lossless compression format.


a better understanding of AD/DA conversion has placed Protools (and others) in the position of being a perfectly acceptable replacement for my trusty Studer 820.
The sound of a DAW depends on the summing engine (32 bit floating in Logic, 48 bit fixed in Pro Tools HD) and the convertors. In terms of AD and DA, Digidesign don't make their own convertors, and Pro Tools can be used either with 192 I/O or with interfaces from Apogee (AD16X and DA16X) and Lynx (Aurora). Not all, but most people agree that these interfaces from Apogee and Lynx sound better than Digidesign interfaces, which probably is because they are newer (they are also faster).

The same interfaces can also be used by Logic or even Garage Band). So - if we talk about summing, it comes down to the difference between 32 bit float 48 bit fixed, and if you buy the DAW summing comparison CDs, or read what's written about them by people who have bought these blindfold listening source material, you'll discover that there isn't any agreement that Pro Tools HD came our better. Not even Digidesign claim that. Personally I agree that old, analogue gear often sounds a little bit better, especially in the low end, but both Logic and Pro Tools users can use external, analog summing boxes or analogue mixers if they want.

I've seen people claim that Logic sounds better then PT, that Pro Tools sound better than Logic, that Logic 8 sound better than Logic 7 and so on, but nobody I'm aware of have been able to produce a 10 seconds long stereo file demonstrating it. I've sold my Pro Tools HD rig, but made some comparisons before I got rid of it, and couldn't produce anything suggesting that one PT HD sounded better that Logic. I still have Logic 7 and Logic 8 on my drive, and we could always - just for fun - make some comparisons if you can specify what it is that you think is worse in Logic 8. I thought you referred to the audio engine, which has been discussed up and down (eg here (http://community.sonikmatter.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t37074.html)), but if there are samples or loops or synth engines you think have changed to the worse, we could always waste some time on comparing files. :)

Just now, I actually found a thread discussing if Logic 7 sounds better than Logic 8 (not the audio engine, but the plugins) - it's here (http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/showthread.php?t=9931)...

[dLight]

(double post, deleted)

[zimv20]

post people agree that these interfaces from Apogee and Lynx sound better than Digidesign interfaces, which probably is because they are newer (they are also faster).


????????

[dLight]

????????

Newer converters don't have to be better (or even faster), but the development in the converter business isn't that different from the development in the rest of the computer industry. You get more for the money and higher speed today than you did back when Digidesign's 192 I/Os were designed. Disclaimer: please note the word 'probably' in what I wrote, I could be totally wrong, I just know that most people I'm aware of that have compared Digidesign's interfaces with newer (and less expensive) interfaces prefer the non-Digidesign interfaces. Personally I like the sound of Digidesign 192 I/O, so this wasn't the reason I stopped using Pro Tools hardware.

[zimv20]

so.... you call higher clock rates "faster" and that's where a converter's "speed" comes from?

what makes a "newer" apogee 192kHz interface "faster" than an "older" digidesign 192kHz interface?

[dLight]

so.... you call higher clock rates "faster" and that's where a converter's "speed" comes from?

what makes a "newer" apogee 192kHz interface "faster" than an "older" digidesign 192kHz interface?

By faster I mean the time it takes for the converter to convert. This affects the total roundtrip latency. Today's converters can perform a DA or AD conversion in less than 0.2 millisecond, but as far as I know, this wasn't possible when the 192 I/Os were designed, at least not unless if you were using much more expensive converters than those found in the 192.

Pro Tools HD was released in 2002 (and probably designed in 2000/2001), and 6 years is a lot of time in the digital world in terms of processing speed. This must be one of the reasons that most, if not all native systems (in so called 'zero latency mode') today have lower roundtrip latency than what was commonly considered impossible for just the DA and AD conversion alone a few years ago. Good converters with as low conversion time as 0.2 millisecond wasn't considered normal back then.

[zimv20]

so you're saying that a converter's latency is a good indicator of how good it sounds?

[dLight]

No...

[zimv20]

so....?

[djejrejk]

I have used both programs extensively,.. Pro Tools 7 is a great program and the industry standard (if there is one). Logic 8 is also a great program, I have had fewer problems (errors, etc) with Logic 8,.. of course the other plus is the great interface. The Pro Tools interface is a big mess imo.

The sound quality from both programs is pretty similar.. what makes more of a difference of course is the quality of mics, pre amps, monitors and of course engineer and performer skill.

I say use the program that makes the most sense to you, both work well, what it come down to for me is workflow, and Logic wins hands down in that category.

[dLight]

so....?

The thing about conversion speed was a side comment to comparing Pro Tools with Logic, Logic 8 sounding like "a toy" etc. There's a myth that Pro Tools sounds better (due to more "professional" interfaces) and have lower latencies, and my comment was pointing to the fact that the converters you can use with Logic is as fast as those that can be used with Pro Tools HD - in addition to, in most people's opinions, also sounding better than Digidesign's own HD interfaces.

[zimv20]

the converters you can use with Logic is as fast as those that can be used with Pro Tools HD

with regards to your use of the word "fast", and how it relates to quality, i really have no idea what you're on about.

[dLight]

with regards to your use of the word "fast", and how it relates to quality, i really have no idea what you're on about.

If one converter A use 0.2 ms for doing what it needs to do, and converter B takes 1 ms to do the same job, converter A is a faster converter - right?

This doesn't relate to 'sound quality', but it relates to what you can do with a native, Logic based DAW. Most people assume that if you buy Pro Tool HD and Digidesign's 192 high end interface, you'll get lower latency than if you buy Logic for $500 and a 3rd part interface... Since 3rd part companies like Apogee have reverse engineered Digidesign's 'interface code', you can use these interfaces with Pro Tools as well, but if it's correct that the latency in a high and Pro Tools system only comes from the converters, the converters in Digidesign's Pro Tools system has a latency that's circa 6 times higher than the latency in newer converters (in interfaces costing a lot less).

[zimv20]

converter A is a faster converter - right?

This doesn't relate to 'sound quality'

that it does relate to sound quality seemed to be your whole point:


most people agree that these interfaces from Apogee and Lynx sound better than Digidesign interfaces, which probably is because they are newer (they are also faster).

By faster I mean the time it takes for the converter to convert. This affects the total roundtrip latency. Today's converters can perform a DA or AD conversion in less than 0.2 millisecond [...] Good converters with as low conversion time as 0.2 millisecond wasn't considered normal back then.

There's a myth that Pro Tools sounds better (due to more "professional" interfaces) and have lower latencies, and my comment was pointing to the fact that the converters you can use with Logic is as fast as those that can be used with Pro Tools HD

i will assert that:

1. "speed" is a silly term to use when talking about interfaces
2. a converter's latency has no bearing on its sound quality
3. the design of the analog circuits around those converter chips does have a bearing on sound quality
4. the reason apogee converters (e.g.) may sound better than digi's is because of the design of the circuits and execution to a price point, not because of age, latencies, or clock rates

[dLight]

i will assert that:

1. "speed" is a silly term to use when talking about interfaces
I guess the reason that several manufacturers (like RME and Lynx) write about the converter 'speed' (the time it takes to convert a signal), and even post info about this before their interfaces are shipping is that most DAW users want as low latency as possible.


2. a converter's latency has no bearing on its sound quality
We agree in this.


3. the design of the analog circuits around those converter chips does have a bearing on sound quality
Sure.

4. the reason apogee converters (e.g.) may sound better than digi's is because of the design of the circuits and execution to a price point, not because of age, latencies, or clock rates

If you compare the price/sound quality ratio in CD players, converters... anything digital, actually - you'll see that you get 'more quality per dollar' for every year. A $400 CD player produced in 2005 normally sounds better than a $400 CD player produced in 1990. This isn't (of course) because the new products have a different production date, but because technology has improved, and the prices have gone down.

Digidesign's 192 I/O sounded a lot better than their 888|24, not because it was newer as such, but as well all know things get better over time in the digital world, and due to increased competition, a larger market, and generally more knowledge and better technology, you get more 'digital audio quality' for the money than you did 5 or 10 or 15 years ago. So - if developers know what they do, they should be capable of delivering a much better interface for $500 or $4000 (or whatever) today than they did eg. 10 years ago.

The 192 I/O didn't use the best converters that were available when it was designed - not because they didn't want to use better converters, but better converters would of course increase the price.


that it does relate to sound quality seemed to be your whole point:


Originally Posted by dLight
most people agree that these interfaces from Apogee and Lynx sound better than Digidesign interfaces, which probably is because they are newer (they are also faster).

I didn't say that they sound better because they are faster, I said that they probably sounded better because they were newer (as explained in this post), and that they also are faster (as in "by the way, they are also faster which influences the latency"). I didn't link conversion speed to better sound quality, but if I would, it would probably be the other way round. The old 888|24 were faster than the newer 192 I/O, but didn't sound as good either.

So - I stand by my words. 'Newer' normally means 'better' in the digital world (better per dollar) and faster conversion is important for latency, but does not mean better sound. You may disagree, but so be it... :)

[zzmook]

dLight, you are right on. Go over to gearslutz or Lynn Fuston's site (3Daudio I think) and you'll see that the general consensus is that Apogee is even getting dated. Mytek is the hot little number right now. That being said, for prosumers you can't argue the bang for buck of a Duet if you don't want to get into the 2-3k range - although I'd save my money for the Mytek (not the Rosetta) rather than getting an Ensemble. Depends on what you're after.

Now, you got caught up a little with the latency argument. First and foremost are two things - quality of converters and quality of clock. You need to get an accurate reproduction of what's coming in, and you need to be able to put all those little digital slices into your digital stream in as close to the exact right timeframe as is possible (harder than it sounds) - this is actually where a lot of pieces still scrimp, and is why clocks such as the apogee Big Ben sell - 1200 smacks and all it does is act as the master clock - bass tightens up, highs shimmer more, and working with a lot of tracks it gets much easier to get a good sound.

Latency is just a measure of how long it takes between the drummer hitting the drum and it getting to tape. Latency can turn into a real bear if you're kicking input back to analog for monitoring or punch ins, but it isn't a detriment to the sound (usability yes, sound no, but don't trivialize low latency - very good thing).

More and more studios are downgrading their Digidesign IO's to the ones that don't do the AD/DA, or even now trading in their Apogees for the new crop of converters because they already did step 1 (get rid of Digidesign IO's). Apogee has been porting their stuff to the prosumer level lately with the Ensemble and Duet, their real pro stuff is getting a little dated. But I wouldn't count them out just yet, let's see what they have to say to these upstarts in the next year or two. They are dominating with the Duet, I could see them porting this to PC and then getting down to the business of recapturing dominance in the true pro space, although at this point it would just be a pride thing - there's gold in them thar Duets that they'll never see in the high end.

[Drumjim85]

dLight, you are right on. Go over to gearslutz or Lynn Fuston's site (3Daudio I think) and you'll see that the general consensus is that Apogee is even getting dated. Mytek is the hot little number right now. That being said, for prosumers you can't argue the bang for buck of a Duet if you don't want to get into the 2-3k range - although I'd save my money for the Mytek (not the Rosetta) rather than getting an Ensemble. Depends on what you're after.

Mytek is great!, I'm loving my ADC96 ..... and you cant beat their clocks!

[zimv20]

apogee Big Ben sell - 1200 smacks and all it does is act as the master clock - bass tightens up, highs shimmer more, and working with a lot of tracks it gets much easier to get a good sound.

what converter(s) do you have your Big Ben hooked up to?

[WinterMute]

It was generally agreed that Digi's interfaces were a little lacking in the AD dept even when they were brand spanky new, and someone elsewhere in the thread pointed out that they were a vast improvement on the gravely 888's.

That said, there is still so much variation in a studios input and monitoring chain as to make the differences apparent only to those with ears sufficiently educated to hear the improvements.

Most of the mix engineers and producers I work with prefer to feed the DA outputs to a good desk for mixing, allowing the audio to be coloured by the desks architecture, and even Abbey Road's mastering guys feed 192/24 master mixes through a Studer 1/2"!

Subjective comparison aside, new is not always better, numbers don't tell the whole story.

[zzmook]

A friend smacked me over the head and told me that Apogee already answered at the pro level with their X series - 16 channel AD and DA units with the Big Ben clock mechanism built in. Basically $3200 gets you 16 tracks of AD or 16 tracks of DA (Apogee) or 8 AD + 8 DA (Mytek) and right now for my purposes I see myself as happier with 16 AD and either getting 2 tracks of DA or just shining on that, sending anything I want spiffily mastered out to someone as digital. For home mixes I'm burning my CD's/mp3's straight off the Mac.

I don't own, but used the Big Ben going into a Rosetta 800, did hear a decent difference.

WinteMute, I think your point is that there is older stuff that sounds good and not to discount it, which I totally agree with up to a point ;) - add analog warmth for mastering (or wherever works for you), use tube preamps, mics compressors (and of course guitar amps). Someone try and smack the Pultec EQ off it's pedestal, hasn't been done yet. I'll even vouch that I get nostalgic for my DA-38 - it's "numbers" weren't the greatest but it's sound was far better than it's numbers.

That being said, when we hijacked a page of this thread to discuss AD conversion I have to say that this is an area where the tech is still young, and where the "prosumer" is just starting to get wise to the fact that in our rush to get onto the new technology we had taken a step back from our ADAT's and DA-38's in terms of A -> D quality when we went to Firestudios and Laylas (now do we understand what happens when we replace a $2000 piece of gear with a $500 piece of gear? It generally ain't good.)

In the real pro space, though, you had Digidesign and Apogee ruling the roost for a long time, but now there are young upstarts starting to make noise (Mytek, Lynx, others) and it's nothing but good for all consumers. Stir things up with new innovation, and more competition = better prices. The pros see more and better gear coming out at good prices, and the prosumer starts to see price points that they can manage (maybe). The converter market is ACTIVE right now, what is coming out is just getting leaps and bounds better in the pro space, and with the Duet we are starting to see some new tech hit at real consumer (not even prosumer) price points. They are going to starting to sell them in Apple stores, for crissakes (already in pilot in Japan). This is big. When little Johnny starts asking Presonus why his Firestudio audio quality just plain sucks compared to Billy's Duet they're going to have to answer for the PC space - and then it's on all over the freakin' place.

BTW, I am a gear-happy prosumer with a few pro friends but FWIW my info on the pro space is mostly secondhand talk or reading (I read a lot of boards) so grab that grain of salt and run with it. Personally, I really like Logic - you get so much (SO MUCH!) bang for the buck, releasing 8 Studio at 500 clams was a real body blow to the PT behemoth. As a DAW I am comfortable that it will do whatever I want from it throughout our time together (I engineer some local bands, but I am not a pro studio by any stretch of the imagination). If you already know PT or are completely 100% serious about getting hooked into the real pro studio network (where having PT can still be a general assumption) I think those are the only real justifications to go that way, otherwise Logic rules, PT drools (baby!).;)

Just my $.02

[Joko]

Back to topic:

Personally i find Logic alot more 'fun' to work on as compared to PT.
For me it's similar to the experience of Mac vs PC.
Logic has it all. SFX, Loops, great plugins..etc

But Logic 8 also has some stability issues at the moment, we need a fix!

[miggz]

I have been using Pro Tools for almost 5 years now. I have a Digi002 and an MBox. Every time there was an upgrade for Pro Tools I bought it thus keeping my studio up to date. In November I bought a new Mac and it came with Leopard. I love the new OS! I upgraded to PT 7.4. It worked ok.... I have a set of Vdrums that I use to trigger BFD. I found that on the new system I was using over 90% of my system resources and PT would crash every 5 minutes. I have a MBP dual 2.4 gig w/ 2 gigs of ram. I was very frustrated and believed that this was because PT didn't have the version for Leopard yet.... So I waited.

Now it has been 6 months and there is still no update. I tried Logic Pro 8 for the first last week and I was blown away. It is very easy to use, sounds great and doesn't crash. It runs BFD just fine. I will never PT again...

For those of you who are in the process deciding which system to use I will say this.. If you have $12000. to buy a PT HD system do it. However, If you want to record music and not pay through the teeth for every little scrap of anything that Digidesign sells that come standard with Logic.... Buy Logic 8.
You can save your session to an OMF format so it can be opened in PT..

Very disappointed with Digidesigns reluctance to look after the people who pay good money to buy their software.

[pixmixer]

I am one of the many Pro Tools users that is impatiently awaiting an update so I can use my new 8 core 2.8, which only runs Leopard. I am a freelance engineer and I mix a 1 hour music performance oriented show which airs weekly on a national cable network. So working to picture is 95% of what I do. I am very curious about Logic Pro 8, but I've never had a demo and I am very reluctant to fork out $499 just to try it out to see if it suits my work style. I have tried Digital Performer, which I have had for some time for music composition/MIDI, but it's flaky about OMF files. For me OMF MUST work properly.
Is there anyone on this forum who does post audio that has transitioned from PT to Logic? Also where could I go to get a demo of it's use for post?

Thanks

[dLight]

I Disagree.. I do all of my Audio mixing in Logic 8 now.. It has a workflow that I like better. Logic is by far the better Software all around. Logic 7... Pro-tools still had an edge but not any more. Apple just knows how to do a GUI. It's old school thinking to say that Logic is better for Midi and Pro-Tools is better for Audio. I think we've finally gotten past this

Unless people are having really fast Macs, using Logic for mixing somehow makes more sense than using it for recording, since buffer sizes/latency doesn't matter when mixing. I use Logic for both, but finally bought an 8-core Mac, which means that I can have more plugin power and lower latency than I could get from my old PTHD system - especially after the 8.02 update.

[Chairman Plow]

I'll readily admit that I was never a fan of the earlier incarnations of Logic... the layout, feel and workflow felt very foreign to me. Pro Tools is a bit long in the tooth, but such familiar territory that I can pretty much go through a session blindfolded. :D

Having said that, I've seen Logic 8 in action (at a friend's), and I'm intrigued enough to give Logic another look. :cool:

[zimv20]

buffer sizes/latency doesn't matter when mixing.

it does if you're using plugs or inserting hardware.

[dLight]

it does if you're using plugs or inserting hardware.

You are right about inserting hardware, but plugins are compensated for....

[zimv20]

You are right about inserting hardware, but plugins are compensated for....

only to the size of the buffer, is my understanding.

that's my understanding of PTLE, fwiw. perhaps Logic is different?

[dLight]

only to the size of the buffer, is my understanding.

that's my understanding of PTLE, fwiw. perhaps Logic is different?

Sorry - I missed this question.

AFAIK, Logic has a way to find out how many samples latency each latency-inducing plugin has, and moves the recorded material forward in time with the equal amount if samples to compensate.

I don't think I understand what you mean by "to the size of the buffer"...?

[juststartingmac]

This does not really have anything to do with the logic v. pro-tools debate but it does tie into it.

I am looking at taking the plunge and buying logic 8 pretty soon but all the sales people I have spoken to have not been able to show me how to utilize mainstage while recording in Logic. I used to use Cubase in conjunction with Amplitube for my guitar processing, and that worked perfectly but I can't seem to do the same in Logic 8.

Another question some guitarists could maybe answer for me is which effects modeling software is currently the best, and how Mainstage stacks up against analogue effects when gigging live.

Help would be appreciated.

If it is too much to post a reply feel free to shoot me an e-mail.

[juststartingmac]

This does not really have anything to do with the logic v. pro-tools debate but it does tie into it.

I am looking at taking the plunge and buying logic 8 pretty soon but all the sales people I have spoken to have not been able to show me how to utilize mainstage while recording in Logic. I used to use Cubase in conjunction with Amplitube for my guitar processing, and that worked perfectly but I can't seem to do the same in Logic 8.

Another question some guitarists could maybe answer for me is which effects modeling software is currently the best, and how Mainstage stacks up against analogue effects when gigging live.

Help would be appreciated.

If it is too much to post a reply feel free to shoot me an e-mail.

[juststartingmac]

This does not really have anything to do with the logic v. pro-tools debate but it does tie into it.

I am looking at taking the plunge and buying logic 8 pretty soon but all the sales people I have spoken to have not been able to show me how to utilize mainstage while recording in Logic. I used to use Cubase in conjunction with Amplitube for my guitar processing, and that worked perfectly but I can't seem to do the same in Logic 8.

Another question some guitarists could maybe answer for me is which effects modeling software is currently the best, and how Mainstage stacks up against analogue effects when gigging live.

Help would be appreciated.

If it is too much to post a reply feel free to shoot me an e-mail.

[zzmook]

Originally Posted by WinterMute
"To my ears, Logic 8 sounds like a toy, this is an observation from a Logic user from 4 onwards, Logic 7 sounds fine, but Logic 8 sounds too close to the artificial sound of Reason and GarageBand to me."

Logic 8 doesn't have to sound like anything. What Logic 8 is, is a great stepping stone through the levels of consumer to semi-pro to pro audio. For $500 what you get is absolutely astounding - loops, effects, synths, a lot of stuff ProTools doesn't have, resting on top of the real meat - an absolutely first class DAW environment.

Need better effects? Get a UAD-2 or a Waves bundle ($500 - $1500) - you're paying the same thing to go from 10 to 60 that a Pro Tools user is paying to go from zero to 60 - exact same stuff.

You're going to need an AD interface, potentially DA - from the Duet ($500) through the Rosetta ($1800), on to AD-16x/Lynx Aurora 16 (~$3000) up to Prism territory ($10k!) you have all the best choices you do for Pro Tools and more (Digidesign's converters universally suck for the money they charge). The high end is pretty much the same, minus the PTHD card and plus an AES EBU or MADI card. Comes out about even.

The fact is, a lot of high end guys haven't heard much Logic attached to high end gear, and when it is you can't just slap low end effects on it. Don't compare a $12,000 apple to a $500 orange. But the fact that I can trick out my $500 orange to compete VERY favorably with that $12k Digidesign apple for $4500 ( Logic Studio 8 + Aurora 16 + RME PCIe AES card) is, to say the least, a very exciting thing. Add a UAD-2 quad for $1500 and we are talking about a VERY pro setup for $6k, 32 tracks of AD/DA for $10k (add another Lynx and RME) - one that I personally think smokes most PTHD systems I've seen.

[WinterMute]

The odd thing is that we are now getting reports of Logic 8 sounding different on the Mac Pro platforms than on the earlier hardware...!

Some of my master students are replacing old hardware and are commenting that Logic 8 sounds much better on the new machines.

This may mean that apple have merely upgraded the DA or the audio firmware.

Audio recorded in logic 8 sounds like audio recorded in Protools when passed through a decent DA, but any sort of native processing in Logic imparts some very odd timbres to the work.

I'm transferring a couple of biggish sessions from Protools to Logic so I can play with Logic with a little more objectivity, I'll let you know how that goes.

Apparently we are to expect a "shocking" press release from Digi sometime soon, but I have no other info and no-one is talking. I surmise a native version of HD with a firewire 192 style interface, this may be a Mac only product.

I think Digi need to get hold of the routines that will allow HD to utilise all of the cores in the 8 core systems (currently they only use what? 2? 4? I don't know offhand) and Apple's price for that code may be the restriction of Protools to the Mac platform. Digi and Avid are getting their arse kicked by Apple currently by Logic and FCP being able to harness the power in the octa-core systems.

This is not in any way a rumour, but it is a current discussion topic in a department stuffed with industry and research audio pros...!

Watch all the spaces.

[dcocharro]

Hi people!

Its import to master your tools and music.
If I have enough money to buy PT-HD, I would buy it, that really compensates.
You stop worrying less about buffers and latencies etc. and concentrate more on what you are doing, music...
I have PT LE, and I compare LE and M-powered with PT free, its just to give you a taste about the system.
If you want to create bigger projects at home, then the best is logic 8 to avoid the track limitation.
Another gap of PT LE and M-powered its that doesn't compensates automatically plug-ins latency.

PT8 is comming out, lets see if its gonna shake peoples mind...

[zzmook]

I've heard that too. Typical Apple - if you didn't have a reason to upgrade before, here's one now.

I do have to say, I'm a big Logic fanboy but I am an admitted (heavy-duty) amateur - I want to make great mixes like anyone else who cares about this forum, but for those who are pro or really,really serious about getting there, Digi is the standard.

I was just at a guy's place buying a mic, he was a pro, had this SWEET 30k ProTools rig in an Argosy desk, just stellar setup. He just grabs his Glyph drive and carts his home mixes around to different studios. Me being a computer geek, I hook him up with a good free FTP client so he can just broadband his stuff over. More and more studios are opening up to Logic in this way, but it is not by any means ubiquitous (all over) like Pro Tools is (yet), might not get there if Digi puts forth a good answer with version 8. But if they don't, Logic's ballooning market share can't be ignored by the studio cogniscenti (another SAT word!) much longer.

My point is, I think Logic as a product is powerful enough to compete with ProTools (with the modern hardware, it was definitely built with the intel mac in mind). It's at a much, much lower price point. And if Digi doesn't either drop prices drastically or come up with another answer soon, it's going to become standard practice for many more "real" studios to accomodate Logic users. If this does happen, Digi is in a LOT of trouble.

That being said, if you're making music for a living right now in any kind of way that you have to deal with outside studios (Jingles, lead-ins, incindental, foley, voice-over, etc.) you have to consider the fact that the standard IS ProTools. No question. And that alone may justify the extra expense.

[WinterMute]

I agree that Digi have to do something to counter the raw grunt of Logic on a Mac Pro, but if the audio is as good as reported then that removes one of my major concerns.

I still maintain that the workflow through Protools is better than anything in the marketplace, but that alone is simply not enough for PTHD to maintain it's place.

[zzmook]

I am a software developer by trade (keeps me in music gear) and one of the first things you learn in my business is that people think what they've gotten used to is easy, anything new is hard. I've had to convince people on green screens where everything's a terminal code that a client server application with buttons and menus was the way to go (and often I just had to give up, telling them that the decision was made and they'd have to get used to it one way or another). My point here? You think ProTools is easy for the most part because you know it.

But this is the software - I think the big workflow difference is in the hardware.

The one part I've always found interesting in the Digi/Logic debate is how closely it parallels Mac/Windows. Except in this case, Apple is like Windows and Digi is like Apple.

On the one side, you have in Digi a system that is "locked up tight" - likes to manufacture it's hardware in house with a very few exceptions (other AD/DA converters are entering the mix, not unlike the Mac graphics card situation). I've seen some VERY nice ProTools control surfaces - that C24 is the bomb. And they integrate seamlessly, because when you make your own stuff you test your own stuff until it works as advertised, don't throw out any updates that pooch the hardware, etc.

On the other, you have some people who threw some software out there and put out an open call for people to make hardware for it. The Mackie MCU is pretty nice, I have that, the Euphonix stuff is supposed to be great. Still a little light here, there's no direct competition for the C24 (which is $10k by itself, fwiw). I think Digi has a high end edge here, but Logic has hardware to compete with the 8 and 003, and from a software "get for the money" perspective it wins hands down - 32 track limit? Are we in tracking Russia? For those of us who don't envision spending the kind of money we'd put into a car on recording equipment Logic will take you farther on the dime, no doubt. (I save the big loot for amps and guitars)

My big point here, though, is that while controllers ease workflow, you still have to figure out how to make things work under the hood. And when you're already a stud in Product X, it's usually not very fun gong through the "pwned n00b" phase while getting up to speed with Product Y. As a capper, I put this out there - can you really remember back to when you didn't know either of these products, and how hard it was to learn X vs. Y? I think from a blank slate n00b perspective the difficulty of the learning curve is pretty much a wash.

[matthewlaw89]

I'm 19.

Awaiting delivery of my new Mac Book Pro 15" with the 2.8ghz as well as M-Audio Profire 610.

I love the look of Logic, it should run sweet on my new computer... Right?

After cruising for many days Pro Tools seems to have a lot of problems from the fact that it is obscenely frustrating to install to impossible and equally frustrating customer service.

I'm a singer/songwriter producing anywhere from a Presets-esk house/electronica feel to jazz and blues.

Is it as simple as Logic for Songwriting and Pro Tools for Producing or am I missing something.

As far as it goes, I'm pretty set on the Logic but could someone please give an answer based on an amateurs point of view and not that of a professional studio.

Thank You

[zzmook]

I run Logic 8 on that machine, no issues (some hardware had firewire issues, but Mac's 8.0.2 update supposedly handled all of that).

Whichever way you go, there will be a learning curve. With Logic 8, recommend you buy a book - their manual is a good reference but a crappy tutorial.

I think the only "simple as that" answer between these two right now is that if you are interfacing regularly with pro studios, they always can utilize your Pro Tools files, not always true with Logic. But if you're not doing that (me either) then Logic is really cheap for all that you get.

Some "audio on laptop" pointers - watch your hard drive space - Logic is 50 gigs by itself and then you're recording a lot of audio data onto that thing. I subbed in a 200 gb 7200rpm drive with a 16mb cache (good upgrade for recording) and I put together an expressCard34 1TB external drive (7200/32mb cache) - you'll need the space eventually if you record a lot. Make sure your external enclosure works with the expressCard if you're recording with your firewire slot. Lastly, recommend you upgrade your memory to the full 4GB, it's cheap now (crucial.com is good) and ITB (In The Box) audio stuff chews through memory like crazy.

[matthewlaw89]

I will be running 4gb Ram with a 320gb 7200 internal memory.

I also have a 1 TB brick that I will be using. I was correct in reading that you can load all the 50 odd gigabytes of Logic stuff on an external drive wasn't I?

The expresscard I think will be an issue but one I imagine I can easily address later.

On the issue of interfacing with a pro studio, I do not think I would be likely to be in that situation any time soon and when the time came I would simply buy Pro Tools. But even still there surely most studios would be able to handle both Logic and Pro Tools? These are the two industry base standard aren't they?

Any suggestions on a good book?

This is all very helpful, thank you!

[zzmook]

It seems like your laptop is tricked out just fine - you've got your hardware as wrapped up as it's going to get on a laptop.

I can recommend "Logic Pro 8 and Logic Express 8" by David Nahmani, is a good introduction to Logic workflows. You'll have a much better concept of what's what after reading that.

The only thing I'd say is that you do have to choose where to put 100% of Logic from what I remember of my install. It's such a core program for anyone that cares that I'd throw it on the 320 instead of the 1TB - I threw my 50GB at a 200GB drive. It's not an always on server or anything, and if you want to work on anything away from your studio area dragging around a brick is a pain. Stuff like Toontrack DFH I put on my brick, and when I'm in my main tracking space I track straight to the brick (I love my expresscard!). I do my backups to there, have my "low priority" mp3's there, etc.

I think you'll find more and more studios that deal with Logic precisely because of guys like you and me - independents coming out of the woodwork that want someone to take the reins from mixdown or mastering phase, but don't necessarily want to re-track. But for the most part, the day in, day out pros are still very, very Pro Tools-oriented. And if you've already invested $30k and up in a system that Logic competes with, but definitely doesn't surpass, then I don't see why they'd switch unless/until they saw that they were leaving too much cash on the table to ignore. I just don't think they've hit that point yet, and it'll be hard to get there until the current crop of hardware and software is obsolete.

Digi has to be careful - Logic is starting to own the Mac-side consumer to "pro"sumer market, is competitive as a pro product (making big inroads in movie sound - see SpiderMan3 article ) and outside converters are absolutely killing the 192 IO (Apogee AD-16x, Lynx Aurora) in independent testing - they're getting hit on all sides and unless they step up their game they stand a chance of having too little cash flow to support themselves. Luckily for them they've been making money hand over fist for a while now - monopolies are great when they're yours.

[matthewlaw89]

Well thank you very much you have been an enormous help.

Off to buy Logic I guess.

Thanks

[HDJOURNEY]

Hi,
I just bought a set of pro tools m-powered 7 yesterday along with the m-audio profire 2626. I do understand that I will be getting the free upgrade to M-POWERED 8 so that really is the true comparison... I already own logic studio (unopened). After a night of research, i went with the above but now am not sure which route is best. I will be doing BOTH band (my) live recording and creating compositions on a regular basis. In all I've read both softwares seem the way to go but right now having to learn them both I really should decide on one and stick with it for a while. My other concern is that which interface (at least 8 inputs needed for live recording) would be best if I end up with both softwares. NOTHING IS OPENED YET AND I HAVE TO START RECORDING THE BAND TOMORROW EVENING SO I NEED QUICK HELP!!!

Thanks

[zzmook]

Download the manual for the ProTools product you have purchased and check out the track limit - I bet it's 8 - does this allow you all the tracks you want? If so, have a long chat with your drummer about why his toms are going to feel lonely - I've eaten up 8 mics on the kit alone. Non -virtual doubling out the window. All of that extra functionality gone. Listen, I hate loops, all that GarageBand crap I don't use. But there's a half-decent virtual synth in there (it ain't Reason 4, but it'll get a lot of stuff done). And there's no track limit imposed by your software because it wants you to upgrade when you're ready to get real. I vote Logic all the way.

[Let's Sekuhara!]

has anyone compared these two programs? if so lets hear it :D

Oh boy... apparently you haven't tried Googling "Pro Tools vs Logic". There are billions of threads about this. But that's okay - let's open the can of worms again for the sake of tradition. :D

My thoughts are as follows:
Pro Tools pros:
- Quick to chop up and move audio clips around.
- Quick to make and manipulate groups.
- Industry standard
- Exists for Windows as well (not that you'd want to use Windows)
Pro Tools cons:
- Can't hide the app using Cmd+H and cannot work around this via system prefs. Breaks Apple's conventions.
- There are many critical commands that should have keyboard shortcuts but don't.
- There are many redundant confirmation dialog boxes that appear with each step. Don't ask me where I want to store my audio files each time!
- Bouncing a track out takes forever. You can't just render it - you need to let it play out while you watch paint dry or count the hairs on your body. If you are bouncing each stem, be prepared to spend all afternoon.
- When you move session files from one machine to another and open them up you are guaranteed to get errors that linked files or fades can't be found.
- Interface could be better optimized for speed.

Logic pros:
- Easy automation of plug-ins etc.
- MIDI integration is superb.
- Bundled with some fantastic plug-ins, instruments, and samples.
- Can render audio quickly without needing to play in realtime from start to finish.
- Great solution for notebooks since no external hardware is required.
- Key commands are totally customizable and can be saved in a prefs file for transportation to other studios.
Logic cons:
- Tool-specific editing is slower than the Pro Tools approach which relies more on key shortcuts and less specialized tools.
- Interface could be better optimized for speed.
- Some feel it to be less intuitive at first. In other words, steeper learning curve. But this has greatly improved with 8.

To be fair though I have used Pro Tools for longer so there are surely more Logic pros and cons I'm not yet aware of. Also the version of Pro Tools I use is not the most recent, so some of the cons I mentioned may have been addressed.

In summary, Logic caters to composers and Pro Tools caters to recording engineers.

[UgLy KoeRner]

wowo great opinions here on both programs...I thought I was up in the air before I am way more now...Thanx guys :p

At the momment I just purchased a MBP 4 gig ram, and I am thinking about the mbox pro with pro tools, I am more on those grounds, cause pro tools is a big thing, and I see my homys use it and it seems to be the shxt...But I dont want to get this program and cry myself to sleep in fear of waking up lol.

At the momment my plan is to record a record as proffesional as I can, maybe get it mixed and mastered in a pro studio...Heres a link to my music, http://www.myspace.com/officialUgLy At this point it is pre-pro done with a Pc and sonar 4 lol...Do any of U even know what that is lol..

Sorry for going off topic here, but you all got me trippen now.

[junior]

Pro Tools cons:

- When you move session files from one machine to another and open them up you are guaranteed to get errors that linked files or fades can't be found.



If it's constantly happening to you, then I can guarantee that it's based on user error.
I do this for a living. Create/record music at my studio, save session, take it to the big mastering studio where I'll make tweaks in accordance with client requests (tv ads). I don't think I've ever had a problem like you describe.

[zimv20]

so will this thread keep going until it's replaced by "Pro tools vs logic 9"?

[junior]

so will this thread keep going until it's replaced by "Pro tools vs logic 9"?

It'll keep going till

a) Digidesign goes bankrupt
b) Apple drops Logic
c) People stop being so trivial and get on with actually making some music.

[MowingDevil]

It'll keep going till

a) Digidesign goes bankrupt
b) Apple drops Logic
c) People stop being so trivial and get on with actually making some music.

Hear Hear!

[dLight]

trivial
A lot of assumptions, half-truths and plain false info come up in all Logic vs. Pro Tools discussions I've witnessed, but there's nothing trivial about a discussion comparing two applications like PT and Logic as such.

Logic and Pro Tools HD constantly are being compared nowadays. It's currently between Logic 8.02 and Pro Tools 7.4.2, and will soon be between Pro Tools 8 vs Logic 8.* (unless Apple develops something completely new).

When two DAWs starting at respectively $500 list and $8,000 list (or is the PTHD list $9,000 now?) are being compared so intensively, - it has a reason, and IMO it's highly relevant to compare the value of PTHD with the increasing 'pro-ness' of Logic.


On one hand, some PT users seem to firmly insist that what we know has happened with Avid vs Final Cut Pro never will happen with Pro Tools vs Logic, while others are attracted to Logic based on that Apple actually both controls the hardware, the OS and the DAW development. Unlike some others, I'm personally 100% convinced that Logic is still being developed - even if there haven't been any sub-releases for quite some time.

Discussions normally both start and end end up with some people preferring Logic while others prefer Pro Tools. Having followed such discussions both in magazines, among colleagues and if various forums for some years, the tendency has been very clear lately: more people tend to want to move from PT to Logic than ever, which eg. this Pro Tools/Logic poll (http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/285702-ultimate-logic-native-pro-tools-poll-2.html) shows.

It's only fair that some people prefer PT over Logic - and vice versa - but so much happens with the development of Intel chips, with Snow Leopard, 12-core Macs, use of graphics cards to process non-graphical stuff, with Logic itself and with audio optimizations in OSX in general that even if I would have owned a PT based, and not a Logic based recording studio, I'd definitely install Logic even if it was only to be compatible with clients using Logic.

More and more people are relying solely on native processing these days, and nothing suggests that this will change back to mainly be relying on DSP cards - ever. Especially now when we have the global financial situation we have and also know how the situation in the music/recording business has been developing for a while, a switch to more - and not less - use of dedicated DSP cards isn't only unlikely, it just won't happen (unless something very unexpected happens, like eg. that dedicated DSP cards will drop massively in price or that revolutionary features will pop up that just require a lot more DSP power than DAWs usually need today).

"'It is really, increasingly, financial suicide to consider using Avid,' when the same work can be done with Apple gear, he says," Barron's reports. "Alpert's color-correction expert, who 'swore he'd never switch to Apple,' this year made the transition to Apple's program, dubbed 'Color,' with relative ease and is now 'quite happy.' Worse, film and TV's next generation is growing up on Apple's cheaper platform."

Barron's reports, "Avid still has fans, but the devotion gap, if you will, has narrowed substantially with Apple. A recent survey conducted by Piper's Olson of 112 post-production video specialists found 45% using Avid machines and 41% using Apple, with the latter having jumped from 32% just a year ago."

More here (http://www.macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/17543/).

[junior]

Yeah, initial cost is quite a fair bit (I think I spent 12k), but software upgrades aren't too expensive. I think PT8HD will cost me $250. As did 7.4.
When I look at the rest of my equipments in my studio, not to mention construction and acoustic costs, I really don't think the price is a big deal for studios.
For arrangers, composers, musicians, etc I would always recommend them Logic. Absolutely no point in having HD systems in those situations.
Now I know you're an engineer and you're doing your stuff at home on Logic, but I still think you're a rare breed. There aren't too many engineers around me that are as familiar with Logic as they are with PT. I think a few of them would stop using my place if I only offered Logic (I offer both).
It's also got to be a bit of a drag bouncing both processed and unprocessed tracks when mixing in a different location is a necessity?
Anyway, I like PT and you like Logic. We both make a living through different approaches so we're both happy.
I hope both companies keep on improving. If it wasn't for Logic I doubt PT8 would have turned out the way it has. Likewise Logic 8 -> PT7.

[riddlemay]

Hi. First time poster. I have a simple question which may or may not have a simple answer.

I have an old Mac (G4, OS 10.3.9) and Pro Tools 6.4 LE. I am going to be getting a new iMac soon to replace my computer, and obviously I also need to replace Pro Tools 6.4 at the same time. Should I:

A. Get Pro Tools 8, because I know how Pro Tools works, and presumably there will be little or no learning curve for me, or

B. Get Logic 8, because if I know how Pro Tools works, figuring out Logic will be a snap, and Logic will work better with my new Mac, and the audio results will be at least equivalent?

Thanks. I should add that I am 58 as and not as able to "learn new tricks" as I once was. (No disrespect to others who are 58 and can.:) )

[zzmook]

Hi. First time poster. I have a simple question which may or may not have a simple answer.

I have an old Mac (G4, OS 10.3.9) and Pro Tools 6.4 LE. I am going to be getting a new iMac soon to replace my computer, and obviously I also need to replace Pro Tools 6.4 at the same time. Should I:

A. Get Pro Tools 8, because I know how Pro Tools works, and presumably there will be little or no learning curve for me, or

B. Get Logic 8, because if I know how Pro Tools works, figuring out Logic will be a snap, and Logic will work better with my new Mac, and the audio results will be at least equivalent?

Thanks. I should add that I am 58 as and not as able to "learn new tricks" as I once was. (No disrespect to others who are 58 and can.:) )

If you know PT, stick with it - especially if the older version is a decent price point for you and does what you need. Logic will do more for cheaper but the learning curve is a little steep.

Also, try 6.4 on your new machine before you take the plunge on a newer version. I wouldn't be so sure that it won't work. Check DigiDesign's site for compatibility notes, it should say there.

[riddlemay]

Thanks, zzmook. It took me till today to see your reply--hence the delay in my acknowledgment of it. It is very helpful.

I just rechecked digidesign's compatibility page for Mac and Pro Tools LE, and the only version of Pro Tools LE that is compatible with the latest Macs running 10.5.5 and 10.5.6 is, as I thought, Pro Tools 8.

[pepex]

I have the 002 digidesign mixer (not rack) but is logic capable of control in real time the 002 robotic faders? Do I have to instal digidesign drivers in mi macbook pro in order to to use logic with digi 002?

[tempusfugit]

logic will work with any interface whereas pro tools only works with specific ones.

[myca]

Get both :)

Logic 8 and the cheapest Pro Tools LE 8 with the micro interface for just playing with/editing.

I use Logic for my musical needs, but had to get Pro Tools LE purely for work related editing, so the micro bundle did the trick, and Pro Tools 8 from what I've seen is pretty snazzy. Granted there are a fair few limitations to the LE software, and the HD systems are out of the reach of most bedroom producers, but there are features in Pro Tools I'd love to see in Logic.

[UltraNEO*]

Honestly.. I dunno why everyone is arguing. Each has their pros and cons and each of the different platforms will suit different people's work-flows. I think, if you prefer Logic then go with logic!! If on the other hand all you know is ProTools, then it's more productive to stick to what you know instead of being less creative learning a whole new application.

Personally, I prefer PT HD cause it's the tool I learnt to use, sure it has a few cons but how many applications/tools out there doesn't? In the home, i can't afford PTHD for my own projects soo I use the PTLE. Before you say.. I've tried both logic and cubase, to be honest. I don't really like the interface other than that.. it's both equally as doable.

PS.. Logic 9 is coming (perhaps it's already here!)

[akdj]

I hate to resurrect the dead again, but I hadn't read all the way through and wanted to make sure it hadn't been mentioned....

I am a former Windows/Audition/Cool Edit user with some very limited dabbling in PT. 2 years ago, I switched to all Mac for our business's creative and added Windows through BC just to be able to use Audition. A year ago, I was turned on to Lynda.com. Awesome site to learn any software in a pretty enjoyable and entertaining way. Also, beats the heck out of trying to read all the literature Apple packages with Logic:) There are some excellent books out, but in a weekend (only 4 or 5 hours each day), you can run through this course on Logic and be on your way. I learned it on a really late Friday night about a year ago and haven't booted into Windows since:)

Again, I was never a big PT user initially...BUT, we do now record and produce mobile-ly (I know that's not a word) and I couldn't be happier with my Logic experience. The learning curve is only steep if you look at their books that they give you....and it makes a lot of sense, because Logic is a VERY powerful program. You certainly don't need to know it all to get going efficiently though. Spend a weekend with Lynda and you'll be recording 32 channels on Monday;)

http://www.lynda.com/home/DisplayCourse.aspx?lpk2=479

PS, Should also mention for those interested....there is also a very incredible Pro Tools training session

http://www.lynda.com/home/DisplayCourse.aspx?lpk2=756



J

[xparaparafreakx]

People should just not learn use one tool and use both tools.

[deej999]

I agree it's best to have more tools to call on. Learning Logic and Pro tools would be a good move.

Someone mentioned tutorials for Logic above. There are lots of options available but from my experience and that of colleagues and friends the www.macprovideo.com tutorials provide the widest and most indepth range for Logic and now for Pro Tools too. I watched their Elastic Audio tutorial (Pro Tools) last month and decided why choose between Logic and Pro Tools when you can have the best of both worlds?!

With the help of these tutorials switching across from Logic to PT has been a breeze :)

There are some features that are not there in Logic 8 (elastic audio, an efficient way to achieve Beat Detective's features, etc) and I love use Logic for composing and creating over Pro Tools. It's impossible to know about what Logic 9 (if it exists) will be like so my moto is use what is here now to make great music!

deej

[MezicanGangxtah]

so will this thread keep going until it's replaced by "Pro tools vs logic 9"?

LOL apparently so!

Well let the ranting begin!

Pro Tool's 8 vs Logic 9? which one is better! ha

[Lakkaland]

The choice (as has been noted here) is about you working style. If you are composing I suggest that Logic (or Neuendo or DP5 or even Abelton Live) is a better choice out of the box and gives a lot of bang for the buck. If you are recording Protools offers a linear workflow and a set of editing tools that Logic has only just caught up with. If you are mixing, neither is really good enough, as they are both native and use the computers on-board processors, mixing in Protools or Logic can only really be achieved without pain on an HD or similarly DSP-rich system.

what app is good enough for mixing?

[Prom1]

what app is good enough for mixing?

I guess it just depends on what music you're mixing and your venue?
Are you a DJ in a club? If so:
Traktor Scratch,
Live 8
M-Audio (look for this if you're hooked on Vynl).

[Xavier]

what app is good enough for mixing?

It depends on what your audio interface is.

I love Protools for recording.

I also love Logic for recording.

But the main system I usually use is much more suited for pro tools.