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MacRumors
Oct 5, 2007, 02:51 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

The DailyPrincetonian reports (http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2007/10/05/news/18871.shtml) on a growing trend amongst at least some universities.

The Princeton University (http://www.princeton.edu/main/) newspaper reports that Princeton's Mac marketshare has been rising dramatically, with 40 percent of students and faculty currently using a Mac as their personal computer. This number is up from only 10% of Mac users on campus only 4 years ago. And this number could still be growing. This year, the University's Student Computer Initiative reportedly sold more Macs than PC's, with 60 percent of students choosing a Mac, up from 45 percent just last year. Students were offered a choice of Dell, IBM and Apple computers.

This follows a recent report (http://www.twincities.com/business/ci_7030265) that looked at a similar trend at many other colleges. According to a separate Pioneer Press survey (http://www.twincities.com/business/ci_7030129), Dartmouth is up to 55% freshman with Macs (up from 30% in 2005), University of Virginia with 20% of freshman with Macs (up from 17% in 2006), and Cornell with 21% dorm network users with a Mac (up from 5% between 2000-2002).

PioneerPress attributes the uptick in sales to the popularity of the iPod, security of Mac OS X, design and ease of use.

These numbers are much higher than the general population, in which Mac marketshare numbers have been hovering around 5-6%. (All of these figures may not be directly comparable, as marketshare numbers typically represent new sales in a particular time-period rather than the installed base. Regardless, the numbers are still significantly higher than would be expected.)

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/05/mac-marketshare-at-universities-booming/)



mcarnes
Oct 5, 2007, 02:53 AM
Right on schedule for world domination.

Ja Di ksw
Oct 5, 2007, 02:56 AM
Seems right to me. At my Uni, more and more people are choosing macs. I honestly would not be surprised if the percentage was higher. Even the last time I went into a computer lab, there was a (short) line of people waiting for the macs, and not *one* person on the two rows of windows machines.

brooker
Oct 5, 2007, 02:59 AM
mebe those darn kidz do knows sumpthin' after all!

ziggyonice
Oct 5, 2007, 03:01 AM
all i have to say is look at them apples (http://duggmirror.com/apple/Look_at_them_apples/cba56d2d8545c3b1818ab1c3c1ba58de_img_6671s.jpg)!


on digg a few days ago

etjazz
Oct 5, 2007, 03:05 AM
PioneerPress attributes the uptick in sales to the popularity of the iPod, security of Mac OS X, design and ease of use.



PioneerPress is way of ... It should be attributed to great design, the switch to Intel and Boot Camp / Parallels - at least those are the most important factors among my student friends

NicoMan
Oct 5, 2007, 03:12 AM
It's all rather impressive. But I hate to rain on everyone's parade, but Apple seem to overstretch themselves: proof is the rather numerous hardware/software interaction issues in recent months. I wish they stopped putting so much energy in the iPhone and concentrated on checking their firmwares and OSX updates before releasing them.

Omni Geno
Oct 5, 2007, 03:13 AM
I don't know about other schools, but here at UCLA I am seeing more and more Macs, especially in my computer science classes. Even where the class requires the use of IDEs like Visual Studio, I'm seeing Macs. It's a very pretty sight.

Belly-laughs
Oct 5, 2007, 03:18 AM
all i have to say is look at them apples (http://duggmirror.com/apple/Look_at_them_apples/cba56d2d8545c3b1818ab1c3c1ba58de_img_6671s.jpg)!


on digg a few days ago

Wow , that´s amazing! Almost like a concert during a ballad…

brilami
Oct 5, 2007, 03:19 AM
buy some shares, will post way better than expected earnings. btw, haven't found the exact date in the earnings calendar. does anybody know when they will release them? mid oct? late oct?

all i know is, BUY THEM NOW :cool:

nlivo
Oct 5, 2007, 03:20 AM
how do you like them apples, baby!!!!!

Mozutaka
Oct 5, 2007, 03:27 AM
My World Civ instructor presented a slideshow with his iPod on Monday. That was way cool.

Also, 3/5 of my current instructors (all History) have Macs and I'd say the 40% mark is pretty accurate for the students as well.

nickd87
Oct 5, 2007, 03:31 AM
I've noticed a sharp increase here at uni in Brisbane, Australia.

I'd say the article's spot on.

Spanky Deluxe
Oct 5, 2007, 03:40 AM
Yeah this sounds about right. When I started University four years ago hardly anyone had macs, in fact I don't remember any of my friends having one, myself included (apart from an old unused iMac G3). Four years later and I have several, my girlfriend has one, three out of my four old housemates have one and several of my girlfriend's friends have them. None of these people had macs four years ago.

I've just started at another University and the whole department is Mac only, all the lecturers have MacBooks and MacBook Pros.

etep
Oct 5, 2007, 03:41 AM
I've noticed a similar thing among astronomers (mostly post-graduates and faculty, though): just two-three years ago only very few people had Macs but now a vast majority of colleagues of mine have either bought their first Mac (latest convert on Wednesday this week) or contemplate it as their next computer. In astronomy conferences now I would say roughly half of the people have Macs and the fraction is still clearly on the increase...

Detektiv-Pinky
Oct 5, 2007, 03:42 AM
I don't know about other schools, but here at UCLA I am seeing more and more Macs, especially in my computer science classes. Even where the class requires the use of IDEs like Visual Studio, I'm seeing Macs. It's a very pretty sight.

I think people in the computer science arena like the underlying BSD. Giving you quick access to command line tools, script programming, etc.
On top of this you have a GUI that let you go on with your other tasks and support from a wide range of professional software (something you simply do not have in Linux).
So in a way I think OSX combines the ease of use and integration people expect from Windows with the openness and flexibility of Linux. Best of both worlds ;)
The only thing that bugs me about OSX really is the diversion in the (German)keyboard-layout from the 'standard' PC-layout, as well as key-bindings in Finder (such as Enter for rename). And please do not tell me will get used to it. I won't - I have to use OSX and Windows systems simultaneously.

For IDE development I highly recommend Eclipse http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/.

winmacguy
Oct 5, 2007, 03:44 AM
The article is great right up to the point where they get to the age old market share myth:rolleyes:

iMacZealot
Oct 5, 2007, 03:51 AM
My sister is a first year student at UCHSC (CU med school for commonfolk), and the school advised people not to buy a Mac because the tech department didn't support them, but about 20% of them did anyway (including my sister, who switched.)

fastbite
Oct 5, 2007, 03:54 AM
Hopefully some will graduate and set up businesses with Macs;)

nagromme
Oct 5, 2007, 03:56 AM
It's certainly quite easy these days to get someone to investigate Macs, I find. It used to be that most people would NOT consider anything but Windows, even if they didn't know why.

bigandy
Oct 5, 2007, 04:16 AM
there's been a big increase here too. if only the unis would embrace them. My uni turned Mac users away when they asked about connecting to the campus VPN - they said it couldn't be done - just because they didn't know where the settings were...

obviously, i told them where it was and they at least don't turn people away now, but they could still be friendlier about the Macs.... :rolleyes:

Spanky Deluxe
Oct 5, 2007, 04:26 AM
I've noticed a similar thing among astronomers (mostly post-graduates and faculty, though): just two-three years ago only very few people had Macs but now a vast majority of colleagues of mine have either bought their first Mac (latest convert on Wednesday this week) or contemplate it as their next computer. In astronomy conferences now I would say roughly half of the people have Macs and the fraction is still clearly on the increase...

That's in line with what I said, I didn't mention it back there but my department is Astronomy too and *everyone* has Macs.

On a different note, I know of loads of people that are looking into macs specifically because of their dissatisfaction of Windows Vista. I'm saying this from the most un-mac-fanboy viewpoint I can muster but it is true. I know of no one that is happy with Vista. Most people are starting to look at Macs or even Linux as a solution.

GoodWatch
Oct 5, 2007, 04:30 AM
Imagine what will happen if 92% of the world’s personal computer population consists of Apple machines. Will a similar problem as in the Windows world emerge? Will Apple fall victim to the same lame practices? In other words; is this a blessing or potential curse? :confused:

nlivo
Oct 5, 2007, 04:35 AM
Imagine what will happen if 92% of the world’s personal computer population consists of Apple machines. Will a similar problem as in the Windows world emerge? Will Apple fall victim to the same lame practices? In other words; is this a blessing or potential curse? :confused:

there would be a lot more viruses, not many fanboys and running windows would be 'thinking different'. I wouldnt like it at all. i like being in the minority.

crossifixio
Oct 5, 2007, 04:38 AM
I go to university in london and I love using my mac for my studies and recommended it to so many students who totally agree when they buy one and start using it. Many of my friends cant believe how much time they use to waste trying to do simple tasks on pcs and love their macs now. Cant wait for leopard as thats going to make things even better :D :apple:

jhande
Oct 5, 2007, 04:40 AM
And here's where Apple is rubbing their hands: These are the future managers, scientists, artists.... in other words Decision-makers.

Grab 'em while they're young, and hold on tight.

Well done, Apple.

SiriusExcelsior
Oct 5, 2007, 04:49 AM
At Auckland Uni in New Zealand I'm seeing quite an increase in Macs around the Engineering School where I'm studing BE. Last year there was hardly any Macs (the occasional MacBook in the cafeteria every few days..) but this year there is suddenly a sharp increase.. now there are usually at least 2 Macs out of the 10~15 laptops in the study area, and maybe another few in the cafeteria.. Moreover many of my friends (who are tradtionally anti-Apple, anti-Mac, and/or anti-iPod, usually for no good reason) now sport/want MacBook/Pros and have/want iPods or actually know about the new iPods that just came out. Frankly I'm quite surprised...

Perhaps the most surprising thing is I see the odd iBook or PowerBook once every few days.. suggesting that a few people are bringing their Macs to uni to use now that Macs are more popular... :rolleyes: I certainly have less to think about when pulling my MacBook out nowadays (I used to be afraid of those "look it's a mac.. what a retard" looks), especially when I boot up VMware and start running Kubuntu and Windows in the labs, then switch to OS X with a keystroke. Unity still gathers the most amazement tho :D

It's a great time to be a Mac user :cool:

I also really hope Apple gets its act together soon too. They're becoming more and more... arrogant (if you will).. regardless of how much they have the right to be (points at iPhone 1.1.1)...

Quiara
Oct 5, 2007, 04:52 AM
My current university is still very PC-dominant. I got my first BA at Harding, though, and my department (English) was all Mac. I didn't switch because of that, but it was a nice additional perk. ASU is still primarily PC; I don't think I've seen a single other MacBook around campus. It's a shame; we're only 1.5 hours from the Apple store. . . ^_~

SpaceMagic
Oct 5, 2007, 04:59 AM
I can attest to this...

During my first year of university... 2005/2006 I was often the only mac in the entire library...

2006/2007 ... i'd guestimate the mac population at around 40%... over just one summer... it was amazing...

I'm on placement this year... but when I go back I expect and hope 60%.

botinhas
Oct 5, 2007, 05:01 AM
Hello to all, i read the MacRumors site for a long long time but this will my first post. :)

About this booming of macs on universities, you should see this photo from a frind's blog: http://caoepulgas.blogspot.com/2007/10/universidade-de-missouri-jornalismo.html

I can onlye count ONE pc user! :p

Rgds from Portugal,
botinhas

MacHiavelli
Oct 5, 2007, 05:08 AM
And this as well is more evidence:

http://goukblog.blogspot.com/2007/10/apple-maul-ms.html

Have noticed that Macs are really popular among teenagers and 20-somethings. At my daughter's school, every kid has a laptop, but only 5 or 6 run Windows - all the rest (about 700) are Apple MBs.

winstano
Oct 5, 2007, 05:14 AM
http://duggmirror.com/apple/Look_at_them_apples/9489b70ab55692ffcac3ec776aa50a1f_img_6672s.jpg

From http://gracefulflavor.net/2007/10/02/you-could-say-that-apple-has-caught-on-with-college-students-just-a-little/

That is one impressive picture...

offwidafairies
Oct 5, 2007, 05:14 AM
i study music at university and I hate the number of students who are buying macs because they look cool
Although, they DO look cool, and ARE cool
It just frustrates me - maybe I am a dog in a manger

offwidafairies
Oct 5, 2007, 05:16 AM
Hello to all, i read the MacRumors site for a long long time but this will my first post. :)

About this booming of macs on universities, you should see this photo from a frind's blog: http://caoepulgas.blogspot.com/2007/10/universidade-de-missouri-jornalismo.html

I can onlye count ONE pc user! :p

Rgds from Portugal,
botinhas

holy crap
ive never seen anything like it! :eek:

Queso
Oct 5, 2007, 05:39 AM
Imagine what will happen if 92% of the world’s personal computer population consists of Apple machines. Will a similar problem as in the Windows world emerge? Will Apple fall victim to the same lame practices? In other words; is this a blessing or potential curse? :confused:
I don't think Apple have the manufacturing capability for this to ever happen, even if they could somehow convince the majority of the public that paying a little extra for a quality computer and OS was worth it.

This trend is incredible for me as when I was at university in the early 90s the reverse was happening. The Mac labs were empty and people queued for the Windows 3.1 machines, and every year less and less students and lecturers had Macs on their desks. Great to see the pendulum finally swinging back :)

twoodcc
Oct 5, 2007, 05:52 AM
great news! this is a very good sign. hopefully this will continue outside of college

Dagless
Oct 5, 2007, 06:12 AM
Only 1 person at my old university didn't have a Mac, and everyone at the place I just graduated from had a Mac laptop.

Maybe it's a Manchester thing? :D

Dagless
Oct 5, 2007, 06:22 AM
And here's where Apple is rubbing their hands: These are the future managers, scientists, artists.... in other words Decision-makers.

Grab 'em while they're young, and hold on tight.

Well done, Apple.

That's quite profound in an odd little way.

Thinking about my circle of friends; the creative ones either have or want (through not being to afford one) a Mac. The ones with dead end call centre or jobless jobs use PC's.

Crazy how it's just an OS and good hardware (in my experience) that causes this rift. They're both doing pretty much what the other does, just one of them does it without fuss :cool:

thejadedmonkey
Oct 5, 2007, 06:34 AM
I think just about anyone who's gone to college lately could tell you that..:rolleyes:

Hell, even community college has an infestation of Macintosh. But then there's people like my friend who HATES the mac, she only has an iPod and an iPhone:p

powertenor
Oct 5, 2007, 06:39 AM
Meanwhile, my kids crappy school district just sold their souls to the devil (Dell). Once upon a time they were all Mac. I'm so upset with the local school board. They actually told the teachers that they switched because the Macs were too difficult to network and had a lot of trouble with the internet. Can you believe that load of crap.

Taylor C
Oct 5, 2007, 06:43 AM
This picture makes me happy. It honestly doesn't surprise me, especially with the great promotion Apple ran for back-to-school.

kwajo.com
Oct 5, 2007, 06:50 AM
This picture makes me happy. It honestly doesn't surprise me, especially with the great promotion Apple ran for back-to-school.

I really hope that the picture wasn't taken in the middle of a lecture. If I was teaching that day, I'd tell everyone to put the computers away and pay attention.


Like the other posters in this thread, I agree that the percentages have been jumping. When I started my undergrad degree, there were 3 of us in the whole dormitory system that used Macs; now I'm well into grad school and it seems like half the campus uses Macbooks. Sometimes I wish I had a badge that said "I've been hooked since the LC II"

manu chao
Oct 5, 2007, 07:03 AM
The only thing that bugs me about OSX really is the diversion in the (German)keyboard-layout from the 'standard' PC-layout,

I also hate the way the Windows keyboard layout deviates from the (standard) Mac one. :D


as well as key-bindings in Finder (such as Enter for rename). And please do not tell me will get used to it. I won't - I have to use OSX and Windows systems simultaneously.

Yes, why is Windows not using the cmd/Apple/Windows key as the main key for shortcuts? :D

MacBiscuit
Oct 5, 2007, 07:10 AM
I really don't think this has much to do with the superiority of Apple. It's about fashion pure and simple. Macs are cool. PCs are a bit geeky. Plus Macs are more expensive so they also have the premium 'cachet'.

I notice this survey is of the top colleges where students tend to be a little more affluent. I wonder what those on lower incomes are using?

Project
Oct 5, 2007, 07:11 AM
Only 1 person at my old university didn't have a Mac, and everyone at the place I just graduated from had a Mac laptop.

Maybe it's a Manchester thing? :D

I'm at Manchester and have converted about 15 people so far. Awareness has been the biggest factor. When I started uni 3 years ago, most people had heard of a Mac but knew nothing about it. Buying a computer meant buying Windows. Now, they at least know that there are other options out there. Which is a huge shift in mindshare.

Craiger
Oct 5, 2007, 07:13 AM
I can definitely see this happening at my school -University of Oklahoma! I was shocked to see the number of macs around campus. Even half of my professors have them.

GO SOONERS!!

swmooretiger
Oct 5, 2007, 07:29 AM
Wow, glad to see that change at Pton. I was one of those 10% of students using a mac in 03-04. I converted a lot of my friends to mac users, but we were all still very much a minority at the time.

I worked for a couple years in the OIT helpdesk there, which is what convinced me to buy a mac. We never got calls from mac users for much more than setting up email. My Dell inspiron kept having just random stupid problems, mostly because of Windows, so I switched, and I'll never go back!

stevehp
Oct 5, 2007, 07:33 AM
Almost half my Masters class of 48 people are using a Mac.

It's pretty awesome.

Evangelion
Oct 5, 2007, 07:35 AM
On top of this you have a GUI that let you go on with your other tasks and support from a wide range of professional software (something you simply do not have in Linux).

Linux has wide selection of professional software. It might be software that you do not use, but they are there. Hell, the software you recommended, Eclipse, runs on Linux!

Detektiv-Pinky
Oct 5, 2007, 07:43 AM
I also hate the way the Windows keyboard layout deviates from the (standard) Mac one. :D


Yes, why is Windows not using the cmd/Apple/Windows key as the main key for shortcuts? :D

OK, that is what really annoys me about some people in the Mac community. The failure to see the issue:

The Standard-PC Keyboard is not something Microsoft invented. It is an Industry-Standard and a lot of operating systems support it (Solaris, Linux, Windows...). I have learned to touch-type a long time ago and expect keys to be on certain places on the keyboard. Can you imagine how often I have cursed the Mac when writing a Webmail I have accidentally closed Safari by hitting right-:apple:-q while trying to enter an @?
Same with curly (and other brackets). They are all over the place in the German-Keyboard layout. Tell you what, I have managed to remap the Keyboard so that the right :apple:-key now functions as ALT-GR. It was quite a difficult process, but something I feel absolutely necessary. (link) (http://1stein.org/tag/AltGr/)

Maybe the real reason Apple is taking of in the educational domain is that those things may not matter so much for young people using their first computer. However, it matters for people like me, who have worked up quite a legacy and have developed certain ways to work.

And please remember, it is all Software and Apple is not even consistent in their own applications. Hitting 'Return' in iTunes does not rename the title, but rather plays it. Apple could easily make it possible to flexibly map the key-bindings to whatever you feel lucky with (maybe a Switcher-Mode?).

Detektiv-Pinky
Oct 5, 2007, 07:51 AM
Linux has wide selection of professional software. It might be software that you do not use, but they are there. Hell, the software you recommended, Eclipse, runs on Linux!

I meant 'professional' in the sense of payed-for, close-source software. I think the open-source scene is really amazing. However, I like the support that OSX has from the professional software developers, something that simply has not yet occured in the Linux arena.:(

That's why I said I like OSX, because I can use Eclipse, Gimp and any other open-source software and at the same time run Photoshop if I need to...

innhitman
Oct 5, 2007, 07:52 AM
offwidafairies and MacBsct, specifically post that students buy Macs to look cool. Hmm.... that is probably not the reason at all... Have you guys ever owned a Mac or used one for any length of time? 'Cool' has nothing to do with it. It's because of the software!!!

Do you think the iPod put MP3 players on the map because they looked cool? NO! It's the software! There were loads of MP3 players before the iPod.. they usually ended up in the junk drawers of the purchaser. I know I bought a few.. never used them... I use my iPhone/Nano daily... The Nano, I move between the car stereo.. or working out with Nike+ and the iPhone for everything else. Could I get away with just owning the iPhone... Of course, but I buy the products I like. I buy the products which are designed well.

Same with the iPhone... it's the software... and wait until Leopard hits the iPhone... omg!!!

My latest Mac convert said after only one day of owning a Macbook, " I can't believe I didn't switch sooner, this thing is amazing". I am sure that is a common quote from those that are just switching to the OS X platform.

justflie
Oct 5, 2007, 07:55 AM
Definitely a noticeable increase in Macs on my campus. I go to WPI (an engineering school in Massachusetts) so we certainly have our share of Windows/Linux geeks but I'm seeing a lot more Mac laptops. I walked into someone's room the other day and he had a Mac Pro, Cinema display (20 or 23") and a Macbook Pro on his desk. I was like, seriously? Oh well, I for one welcome our new Apple overlords.

MrGuilt
Oct 5, 2007, 07:55 AM
On MacBreak Weekly (http://www.twit.tv/mbw) a few weeks ago, Merlin Mann made a very interesting observation. What would be the Mac's market share if we looked only at personal (rather than business) computers? In other words, people who buy the computer they want to use, versus what is on their desk at the office. The analogy he made was leading car figures (Ford leading in overall sales, versus Toyota leading for family car (i.e. taking out fleet sales, rentals, etc.).

It sounds as though the college figure probably reflects a population that has to buy their ow hardware. Provided they meet some base criteria (MS Word Documents and a browser, perhaps), they can buy whatever they want. And, the market has spoken.

("Wait," you say. "Macs are more expensive. These college kids get cool discounts" Though they don't have the ultra low end (older Intel procs, for instance), when you compare apples to apples, Macs cost about the same as a Dell (http://mrguilt.vox.com/library/post/apple-overcharges.html).)

sananda
Oct 5, 2007, 07:55 AM
offwidafairies and MacBsct, specifically post that students buy Macs to look cool. Hmm.... that is probably not the reason at all... Have you guys ever owned a Mac or used one for any length of time? 'Cool' has nothing to do with it. It's because of the software!!!

Do you think the iPod put MP3 players on the map because they looked cool? NO! It's the software! There were loads of MP3 players before the iPod.. they usually ended up in the junk drawers of the purchaser. I know I bought a few.. never used them... I use my iPhone/Nano daily... The Nano, I move between the car stereo.. or working out with Nike+ and the iPhone for everything else. Could I get away with just owning the iPhone... Of course, but I buy the products I like. I buy the products which are designed well.

Same with the iPhone... it's the software... and wait until Leopard hits the iPhone... omg!!!

My latest Mac convert said after only one day of owning a Macbook, " I can't believe I didn't switch sooner, this thing is amazing". I am sure that is a common quote from those that are just switching to the OS X platform.

well i bought my first mac in 2000 because it looked nice! you could say i thought i looked cool. and none of the alternatives were at all pleasant looking. i discovered all the other good things afterwards.

MacBiscuit
Oct 5, 2007, 07:59 AM
offwidafairies and MacBsct, specifically post that students buy Macs to look cool. Hmm.... that is probably not the reason at all... Have you guys ever owned a Mac or used one for any length of time? 'Cool' has nothing to do with it. It's because of the software!!!.

Yes, I have two Macs, but use Windows professionally and I entirely agree with you. However maybe I'm just a little cynical...

Notice in that picture that all those students have powerbooks/mac pro's? Wouldn't a MacBook be sufficient for taking the odd note in lectures? All I'm saying is there seems to be a little more money around these days - jealousy I'm sure... ;)

Thomas2006
Oct 5, 2007, 08:03 AM
This picture makes me happy. It honestly doesn't surprise me, especially with the great promotion Apple ran for back-to-school.
It looks like more than a few purchased their Mac from ColorWare (http://www.colorwarepc.com/products/select_macbook.aspx).

Stella
Oct 5, 2007, 08:10 AM
I meant 'professional' in the sense of payed-for, close-source software. I think the open-source scene is really amazing. However, I like the support that OSX has from the professional software developers, something that simply has not yet occured in the Linux arena.:(

That's why I said I like OSX, because I can use Eclipse, Gimp and any other open-source software and at the same time run Photoshop if I need to...

OSX is a great development platform, out of the box - with XCode. You can *nix stuff.

Eclipse is a good IDE ( with a dire UI ) - but there is still the AWT-SWT bug that cripples a lot of otherwise good plugins, such as MyEclipse.

I'd take OSX over windows for development any day of the week ( unless it was of course, dependent on windows ). The windows command line is hard work and inflexible compared to that of the terminal. Cygwin under windows just isn't the same.

Now can these students afford Macs in the first place?!!

Eidorian
Oct 5, 2007, 08:17 AM
Yes, I have two Macs, but use Windows professionally and I entirely agree with you. However maybe I'm just a little cynical...

Notice in that picture that all those students have powerbooks/mac pro's? Wouldn't a MacBook be sufficient for taking the odd note in lectures? All I'm saying is there seems to be a little more money around these days - jealousy I'm sure... ;)I've found that MacBook Pros tend to be a graduation gift for incoming freshman. The majority of us older PowerPC users tend to migrate to the MacBook as our iBooks and PowerBooks get older.

I remember when I was lucky to find someone with a Mac laptop or even in a lab. Now Mac users are everywhere and the labs are getting packed.

Detektiv-Pinky
Oct 5, 2007, 08:30 AM
OSX is a great development platform, out of the box - with XCode. You can *nix stuff.

<snip>

Exactly!

Something that is most often overlooked by the Mac-veterans and analysts alike. OSX is a BSD-type operating system. With a little eye-candy on top;)

oceanzen
Oct 5, 2007, 08:35 AM
At Brighton Uni (Grand Parade Campus), Every computer there is a Mac, even the staff office computers. Mind you it is an art school.

Le Big Mac
Oct 5, 2007, 08:42 AM
there's been a big increase here too. if only the unis would embrace them. :

Yeah, this is good news but only a trickle. I went to Stanford and started in 1989. Basically the entire campus was mac, and the first thing you did as a freshman was, money permitting, place your order for an SE/30. One wacko in our dorm set up a PC in his room (don't think it was even windows at the time) . . . oh how we laughed. Everybody else could hookup to printers and the network using appletalk, and he was just geeking away with his DOS commands.

Well, pretty sure that mac market share has declined both at Stanford and in the world since then. It's all about what's supported in the community--if everybody has macs, then there's an incentive to have one as well. (Because, well, software is less expensive)

geerlingguy
Oct 5, 2007, 08:43 AM
At my school (a Seminary), there was one Mac when I entered (my old iBook G4). Today, after only three and a half years, there are more than 20 - that's about 15% Macs, 85% PCs. And there are already four other guys I've convinced to buy a Mac when their PCs are dead.

Westside guy
Oct 5, 2007, 08:50 AM
This has also been my experience, in our department anyway, at the University of Washington. Our computing group manager is adamant that we will NOT support Macs; even so, faculty and students (especially grad students) are buying Macs - usually laptops - when it comes time to replace their personal computers (as well as work computers purchased with research funds).

With the folks I've talked to (which is a small subset I realize), the iPod has nothing to do with it. Many of them buy the Mac before the iPod, if they ever buy an iPod at all. For some it's been the advantages of having a great interface on top of Unix. For others - including a new emeritus professor that I was talking to yesterday - it's the reputation of the Mac being safer (and lower maintenance) than a Windows PC, sometimes combined with bad experiences with Windows laptops. I personally think a lot of it is because people seen as "tech savvy" at our university have adopted Macs at a significantly higher rate over the past several years - people tend to be swayed by this over time when they make their own decisions (a large percentage of Unix folks seem to own a Mac laptop for their own use nowadays, although far fewer seem to be inclined towards switching their servers away from Linux/BSD).

BTW the switch to Intel has proven itself to be a stroke of genius. Almost every switcher I know has said they've had their eye on a Mac for quite some time, but the need to run "Windows Application X" had prevented them before.

rockosmodurnlif
Oct 5, 2007, 08:54 AM
I'm glad we're all so happy that marketshare is going up. I am also happy that it is young people who are getting their hands on these computers. Hopefully these young people will become a little curious and try to break them the way Windows machines have been broken, necessitating anti-virus, firewalls and update Tuesday.

I really don't think this has much to do with the superiority of Apple. It's about fashion pure and simple. Macs are cool. PCs are a bit geeky. Plus Macs are more expensive so they also have the premium 'cachet'.

I notice this survey is of the top colleges where students tend to be a little more affluent. I wonder what those on lower incomes are using?

offwidafairies and MacBsct, specifically post that students buy Macs to look cool. Hmm.... that is probably not the reason at all... Have you guys ever owned a Mac or used one for any length of time? 'Cool' has nothing to do with it. It's because of the software!!!

Do you think the iPod put MP3 players on the map because they looked cool? NO! It's the software! There were loads of MP3 players before the iPod.. they usually ended up in the junk drawers of the purchaser. I know I bought a few.. never used them... I use my iPhone/Nano daily... The Nano, I move between the car stereo.. or working out with Nike+ and the iPhone for everything else. Could I get away with just owning the iPhone... Of course, but I buy the products I like. I buy the products which are designed well.

Same with the iPhone... it's the software... and wait until Leopard hits the iPhone... omg!!!

My latest Mac convert said after only one day of owning a Macbook, " I can't believe I didn't switch sooner, this thing is amazing". I am sure that is a common quote from those that are just switching to the OS X platform.

I'm going with MacBiscuit. If you don't think Apple has saturated the market with an expectation of user experience from using their products you're wrong. If you don't think there's a certain amount of ego boost from using a Mac instead of a PC just read any number of member signatures on this board. And if there is one thing people love to feel its better/superior/smarter (take your pick) than other people.

As for the iPod, yes, it looked cool. 5 gigs of music in the palm of your hand. Are you forgetting what mp3 players with that capacity looked like before the iPod? Or the capacity of mp3 players that could rival the iPods size when it first came out? And what about the mini/nano? It was the size and colors more than the software that made that success. The iPod had the same software and was only $50 more than the mini when it first came out for more than 4 times the capacity. But it's the minis that sellout. Software, right.

$156 per share, that sounds a little over valued all things considered including a look at the tech industry as a whole (which are all trading at less than $60 including tech companies that aren't going anywhere, ie: Microsoft, Intel). If you don't think there is a 'cool' factor driving the share price and consumers you're being naive. I'm not saying it's all there is but it is there and Apple is reaping the whirlwind.

Jackie.Cane
Oct 5, 2007, 08:54 AM
I certainly noticed a dramatic increase in the number of Macs I saw around campus over the tenure of my time at university. I'll bet there are even more around now.:)

Evangelion
Oct 5, 2007, 09:02 AM
I meant 'professional' in the sense of payed-for, close-source software.

Well, I fail to see why that software would be better than free, open-source software. It CAN be of course, but being closed does not automatically mean that it's better.

That said, there are LOTS of closed, paid-for professional software for Linux.

That's why I said I like OSX, because I can use Eclipse, Gimp and any other open-source software and at the same time run Photoshop if I need to...

Well, there are other pieces of pro-software besides Photoshop, and I fail to see why everyone keeps on bringing up Photoshop.

ph0rk
Oct 5, 2007, 09:05 AM
UNC-CH offers reasonable support for macs with respect to software, but the "campus computing initiative" still pushes thinkpads on incoming students.

ECU, on the other hand, had macbooks as part of their "recommended laptop" selection.

Shame on you, UNC IT dept!

manu chao
Oct 5, 2007, 09:11 AM
I have learned to touch-type a long time ago and expect keys to be on certain places on the keyboard.

I have learned to touch-type about 10 years ago. In the beginning I typed most on Solaris machines then Windows at my university but also on my non-internet connected Mac at home. I quickly started to switch to the English layout as I found it more convenient for programming (brackets etc.). Over the last six years I mainly typed on a Mac.

My biggest beef with the Windows keyboard layout is the use of ctrl instead of cmd. The cmd key is always directly below my thumbs, the ctrl key is mostly too far out.

I constantly switch between the German layout and the English one, the keyboard I am using has the Swiss German layout printed on it. I don't know all special characters, particular those accessible via alt, by heart. In OS X, I simply open the keyboard viewer whenever I cannot find a character or if I need a character more easily accessible in German layout I quickly switch to it.

There might be a keyboard viewer in Windows as well but it must be well hidden as none of my Windows using colleagues was able to show it to me. Switching layouts is not as reliable in Windows neither. Sometimes I switch but it keeps typing in the old layout. Or I switch programs and it switches the layout (this might be a feature but I find it most annoying).

Just select (or build) a keyboard layout you like and use it on all computers.

Braz0s
Oct 5, 2007, 09:13 AM
Back in the day Apple gave hefty student discounts. Are they still giving deep discounts to students?

t-money
Oct 5, 2007, 09:19 AM
I've been out of school for a few years now, but I live in a large college town. The big shift to Macs has been clear, based on what I see kids are using in cafes and coffee places. The obvious reason is Intel/Bootcamp/XP. For students (and parents especially) compatibility with the standard business software is a must. The Intel chips allow the style and hipness of Apple hardware, with total compatibility if needed.

The photo of a almost completely Apple classroom is somewhat misleading. The Journalism department at that school requires Macs and this is one of their classes. Still, the fact that they are required by a department is just as interesting.

milatchi
Oct 5, 2007, 09:25 AM
I was used to be like all you PC users, then after my Freshman year in college, my professors opened my eyes!:p

monetnj
Oct 5, 2007, 09:34 AM
Back in the day Apple gave hefty student discounts. Are they still giving deep discounts to students?

Not so much anymore. About $100. The discount also applies to faculty and staff.

As for how students afford Macs, at least at Princeton when I was an undergrad, if you were on financial aid (and FYI, many students here are not affluent and on financial aid), you automatically qualified for a loan to buy a machine. However they are getting them, they are all over the place. I currently work at the IT department for Princeton and right outside my door is one of the students' favored study areas. I have seen that little Apple logo multiply over the years like a bunny.

Now, whether that actually impacts marketshare down the line, who knows. When I was a student, the campus was practically 100% mac and it is one of the reasons I have always owned one. Of course, the dark days of Apple kind of squandered that advantage for many. The advent of Intel chips might prevent that now in that you can always have your Mac run Windows apps if you need them. No need to convert and join the dark side.

Queso
Oct 5, 2007, 09:35 AM
OSX's security? PioneerPress, you're full of crap. Kids are buying Apple because "PCs are for fart huffers and Macs get you laid."
LMAO. I just had to look up what a fart huffer was :D

richard.mac
Oct 5, 2007, 09:52 AM
ive only seen about 5 macs at uni including mine. the whole uni is so "pc". we've got a mac lab with about 20 imac core duos but you have to be a computer science student to login... which im not! :(

when i switched last year i didnt know how to connect to the uni's wireless (had to connect to vpn using internet connect) the tech guy was like oh a mac? we dont support them... and im like what? then another techie came to help me and was like macs, yeh there easy!

Virgil-TB2
Oct 5, 2007, 09:59 AM
It's all rather impressive. But I hate to rain on everyone's parade, but Apple seem to overstretch themselves: proof is the rather numerous hardware/software interaction issues in recent months. I wish they stopped putting so much energy in the iPhone and concentrated on checking their firmwares and OSX updates before releasing them.I agree on the "Apple is over-reaching itself" comment, but in all fairness, 2007 is a year like no other for Apple.

Before the year is out they will have revisioned every hardware product in their line-up, come out with a new version of every software package they sell, put out a new OS, and introduced two completely new products (three if you count the Touch). At the beginning of the year you could still buy their stock for under a hundred bucks, by the year end it will likely be closer to two hundred.

So yeah, they are really reaching here and I agree that they are making a really unprecedented amount of mistakes and their quality is down from where it usually is. But you still gotta take into account all that other good stuff. :)

If any year was "the Year of Apple" this is it.

Virgil-TB2
Oct 5, 2007, 10:05 AM
That's quite profound in an odd little way.

Thinking about my circle of friends; the creative ones either have or want (through not being to afford one) a Mac. The ones with dead end call centre or jobless jobs use PC's.

Crazy how it's just an OS and good hardware (in my experience) that causes this rift. They're both doing pretty much what the other does, just one of them does it without fuss :cool:Steve Jobs thought of this decades ago. This is actually an intentional strategy for Apple, which is why they have always emphasized and strongly supported education markets.

The fact that places like Universities have huge numbers of people using Macs is partly what saved them from extinction when Microsoft tried to cheat Apple out of existence. Macs have always been attractive to smart, creative people and are aimed at helping these people do the things they need to do.

FoxyKaye
Oct 5, 2007, 10:18 AM
This trend is incredible for me as when I was at university in the early 90s the reverse was happening. The Mac labs were empty and people queued for the Windows 3.1 machines, and every year less and less students and lecturers had Macs on their desks. Great to see the pendulum finally swinging back :)
Wow - do I ever remember that. I was at Cornell, and they were ripping out Macs at an incredible rate after a very brief flirtation with OS/2 - by my senior year (1994-1995), the University's "policy" was that Macs were unsupported. What a change since then.

This same trend is starting to take root in the nonprofit sector, where traditionally PCs have been the cheap favorite. But, more and more nonprofits are starting to realize that they might be able to save some money in equipment, but the overhead to support Windows is huge.

I might be pretty annoyed with Apple lately re: its business practices and DRM and the iPhone, but it's stuff really does just "work" right out of the box. OS X is really a beautiful thing to administer on a network.

I hope developers in both the education and nonprofit sectors wake up soon - supporting Macs is becoming profitable again.

guzhogi
Oct 5, 2007, 10:19 AM
I work in an elementary school district w/ 9 schools & an administration building and we have all Macs. SEveral of the teachers/staff have Macs @ home, too. At the school I work at, the custodian uses a PC for HVAC kind of stuff I guess and I have a MacBook w/ Windows on it for computerized testing we do. But in a district w/ about 4000 kids that uses only Macs, that'll definitely make an impression.

masse
Oct 5, 2007, 10:19 AM
I'm at Georgia Tech in a Chem lecture right now.

I see 4 mbp, an i book, and a few more macbooks. They are everywhere in college which is a good sign. Today's student's are tomorrow's business leaders. Spot a trend?

Rantipole
Oct 5, 2007, 10:23 AM
Um, does anyone else have deja vu? Didn't they run this identical story not too long ago? :confused:

Consultant
Oct 5, 2007, 10:26 AM
Imagine what will happen if 92% of the world’s personal computer population consists of Apple machines. Will a similar problem as in the Windows world emerge? Will Apple fall victim to the same lame practices? In other words; is this a blessing or potential curse? :confused:

No, Mac OSX is way more efficient in the underlying OS and user interface.

Windows:

- Even installing additional programs, without running them, will slow down the machine over time.
- Need frequent defrag.
- Need to nuke windowz a few times a year if you don't want it to slow down to the crawl.
- Has various interface inconsistencies which slows down productivity. I can show you 4 MS programs that have different behaviors even with the most basic functions of opening and closing windows in the programs.
- Every part of windows is designed to slow down a user. See how long it takes to get you to a nested program. In XP, it's a second or so delay for each item (but you have to do it at least twice or three times). In Vista it's even worst.

crossifixio is exactly right: After switching to Macs,
many ... cant believe how much time they used to waste trying to do simple tasks on pcs

sananda
Oct 5, 2007, 10:26 AM
I'm at Georgia Tech in a Chem lecture right now.


get on with your work :D

guzhogi
Oct 5, 2007, 10:27 AM
I might be pretty annoyed with Apple lately re: its business practices and DRM and the iPhone, but it's stuff really does just "work" right out of the box. OS X is really a beautiful thing to administer on a network.

Agreed. Apple has a lot of really great products, but doesn't want to risk letting 3rd party hard/software to ruin the experience. Understandable to an extent, but Apple's way passed the line and is deeply in the control freak area. Also, assembly problems keep popping up. You don't even want to know how many power adaptors I had to buy for my current & previous laptops. Plus, my current one's screen, a MBP, sometimes doesn't want to turn on when I start up or automatically turns the screen off when opening it from sleep. I have to hold down the power button until it turns off and restart repeatedly just to get it working right. Plus, I already had to get the motherboard replaced once.

rashdown_online
Oct 5, 2007, 10:30 AM
...I was too busy trying to find two pennys to rub together for dinner (after 6 pints of Guinness a night) and massaging my ever increasing over-draft, while trying to pull (not as successfully as I hoped) the ladies.

How times have changed!

(not for me as I'm still trying to find 2 pennys to rub together! But down to 4 pints of guinness - and certainly not as successful with the ladies! I blame the guinness).

Getting funky laptops and stuff! I mean, I had to do with a x486DX-33 with 4Mb RAM + 200Mb HDD + 4Mb VGA that ran AutoCAD12 like a beast! It wasn't portable, but it certainly WAS secure (no Net back then). Oh how life was when we all read books and journals from the library!...

happydude
Oct 5, 2007, 10:32 AM
so apple is almost looking like they might be hitting their 80's/early 90's education computer domination percentages. obviously good news, but apple is still targeting the wrong audience for "world domination" as one post said. they need to go after the business world and in a big way. yeah, college kids think their apple is cool, but entering the work force, they'll have to switch to whatever their boss demands - 98% (just a generalization without any fact checking - no flaming please, meant only to illustrate a point) of the time that's a pc. in turn, the computer these people use at home will more often than not reflect what they use at work. the guy who pays the paycheck has a lot more sway over the computing platform being used at work and at home than the obvious user friendly cool appeal apple has.

i would just like apple to more aggressively going after the business market. a cheaper but still powerful tower, cheaper monitor, networking solutions made apparent, etc. jobs went after the schools/arts, gates went after businesses . . . look where apple is compared to windows. apple should learn from history and start going after the business market.

himansk
Oct 5, 2007, 10:33 AM
im studying in columbia univ in ny, in the cs department more than half 60-65% students use a mac laptop, most of the professors use a mac in their offices. i was fairly surprised to see so many in use when i joined in september

Mavimao
Oct 5, 2007, 10:44 AM
I first went to college in 2001 at Dension University in Ohio. The school had a few iMacs scattered around with OS9 and it was a pain to use. I was a mac user then so I put up with the random, numerous crashes and the completely non-friendly method of logging into novell to access your student drive, just because I knew that deep inside macs were very awesome and that this was a poor representation of its potential. At the time it was very hard to convince others to use the macs, especially when Word would crash for no reason and there was no convincing piece of software that the macs had that the PCs didn't.

The only people to have macs were people who's parents didn't know any better and bought them an iMac much to their disdain, and computer geeks who knew better ;)

Fast foward a few years and OSX matured, Apple introduced iTunes, iLife iPods, and other neat gadgets. Macs were safe, fun, easy, and cool. They've become a fashion statement (perhaps to the grief of many longtime mac users), and people love to follow a crowd.

Now when I pop in to visit campus, I can't believe the amound of glowing apples I see in the library. It's a whole new world.

MacLovin611
Oct 5, 2007, 10:52 AM
yeah, college kids think their apple is cool, but entering the work force, they'll have to switch to whatever their boss demands - 98% (just a generalization without any fact checking - no flaming please, meant only to illustrate a point) of the time that's a pc.

I go to Penn and I'd have to say that 2/3 of the laptops you see people bring with them to study at the library or other lounges are macs. I have a white macbook and my several of my friends have expressed their jealousy. There is definitely a cool factor with the macs with the up and coming generation.

As for the workplace, that's what boot camp is for :).

Clive At Five
Oct 5, 2007, 10:54 AM
I never thought I'd see the Pioneer Press quoted on MacRumors.

Their newspaper is okay but I prefer the StarTribune... Better crosswords ;)

-Clive

Mudo
Oct 5, 2007, 10:58 AM
I work for the official bookstore of Virginia Tech. We are also the only authorized education reseller in a 60+ mile radius.

Our big program here is the engineering department, which is hellbentforleather set on tablet pc at the moment. Our incoming freshman class this year was 5,500. Out of that, we sold 3,000 units -- our best year ever. Our best selling brand was ... Apple. We offered modified mid whitebooks, blackbooks, and the range of mbps (plus a high resolution 17").

Now, in all fairness, that's strictly speaking number of units. We sold way more units of tablets -- spread out across 3 manufacturers -- but for best selling brand it was Apple all the way.

Our machines were specially priced and thus excluded the iPod/ printer offer, so I don't see that as a factor.

Personally, I bought my iPod after I bought my iMac. What drove my personal decision to get a Mac after building my own PCs for the last 10 years was simple -- economics. I can run three operating systems on this machine, and thus practically everything out there, so it's cheap when you look at it that way.

digitalbiker
Oct 5, 2007, 11:02 AM
PioneerPress is way of ... It should be attributed to great design, the switch to Intel and Boot Camp / Parallels - at least those are the most important factors among my student friends

I agree. The switch to Intel was the biggest factor. It allows computer science students to run linux for studies and exercises. It allows business and english majors to run windows for compatibility with exchange, word, and a whole host of other university standard software.

The students get the advantage of using a great Mac OS, iLife, iWork, iTunes, etc. while at the same time being compatible with university requirements.

Next, Apple needs to get their act together with game developers. If Apple were to bring a large number of big name games native to the Mac it would double these university sales.

happydude
Oct 5, 2007, 11:07 AM
I never thought I'd see the Pioneer Press quoted on MacRumors.

Their newspaper is okay but I prefer the StarTribune... Better crosswords ;)

-Clive

better comics too :D

ki4pcm
Oct 5, 2007, 11:07 AM
At Northern Michigan University they started a program where students got thinkpads to use while in school at part of their tuition. The Art and Design students protested for a couple years and then got Mac laptops. I was a computer science major but when I had to tutor students in the low level cources that had macs I loved it, other than figuring out how to use the track pad rather than the nipple. :D

One computer science student bought his own mac, several declared art and design until their last semester, and two profs used macs.

I graduated two and a half years ago and already I was seeing a shift. The art and design department had a liquidation sale and the computer science students were buying the old iMacs (333 MHz CRT iMacs) to try them out, many deciding to switch from their thinkpads with linux to the mac platform for their personal computer. They actually had people lined up for several hours before the sale started (they were selling them for $100 in 2004). That's when I switched as well.

But I still don't think any of them would give up linux on the server.

Oh, and now I have a PPC Mac Mini, a black MacBook (gen 1), an iPhone, and an iPod mini, and a shuffle.. I only touch windows at work. I'm submitting this from work on my macbook (using synergy) and it's one of 7 macs that make the trip in to the building daily in a tech company with about 24 people at this location.

OdduWon
Oct 5, 2007, 11:14 AM
i have recently been informed that Cal Poly university will be replacing ALL their old PC,s with Mac's. The reason, They do windows, and don't crash every hour. Also the store on campus, no less than a year ago, had 4 models of windows laptops and the complete line of apples. Now, only macs. the space where the pc's were is now acessories for the MB's and MBP's. perhaps the reasoning is that with apple you get a near top of the line machine without having to know what makes a top notch machine. all the macs were more powerful that the PC's that were sitting next to them and this was a year ago, now the gap is even more evident.

this is probbably why i ve seen appl shares rise from $44 a share to $150+ since ive been a MR member. just wait till 10.5 comes out lol :p:apple:

yzp
Oct 5, 2007, 11:17 AM
I noticed this fact at Université Laval, in quebec city!

the prices dropped, and people spread the word that MACs are AMAZING!!

Detektiv-Pinky
Oct 5, 2007, 11:17 AM
Well, I fail to see why that software would be better than free, open-source software. It CAN be of course, but being closed does not automatically mean that it's better.

That said, there are LOTS of closed, paid-for professional software for Linux.


Well, there are other pieces of pro-software besides Photoshop, and I fail to see why everyone keeps on bringing up Photoshop.

I never said that closed-source source software is BETTER than open-source. I said that I like to have the choice to use whatever I feel better suited to the job at hand. And for this Photoshop is but one example, where people (including me) know how to use it and to apply it to certain tasks. The $$ for the software package beeing only part of the cost associated with the tool. I think the time to learn to use certain complex types of software is far more costly here.

And like it or not. Photoshop and MS-Office are the standard tools in most companies I know about and here the Mac has a clear advantage over Linux in that it allows to run these tools of the trade.

My experience with open-source tools is rather mixed. Althrough there are some very well supported projects, others sadly have stalled and are hardly supported/developed at all (i am still looking for an open-source alternative for Visio). It is not uncommon for some very promising tool to become unsupported over time...

milo
Oct 5, 2007, 11:18 AM
It's all rather impressive. But I hate to rain on everyone's parade, but Apple seem to overstretch themselves: proof is the rather numerous hardware/software interaction issues in recent months. I wish they stopped putting so much energy in the iPhone and concentrated on checking their firmwares and OSX updates before releasing them.

Apple has some QC issues every year. Every company does. Without statistics to back it up, claiming that quality is down this year is just a wild guess based on anectodote.

Can you imagine how often I have cursed the Mac when writing a Webmail I have accidentally closed Safari by hitting right-:apple:-q while trying to enter an @?

You could start by trying the safari 3 beta, it pops a dialogue box instead of quitting if you've entered text.


And AAPL stock is already closer to 200 than 100. But by the end of the year it will be much closer, may even hit that point if there are enough reports of great holiday season sales.

jmadlena
Oct 5, 2007, 11:19 AM
This has been obvious to me for a while now. But then again, I am sitting in a giant lecture hall right now, surrounded by many, many Macs. Four in the front row alone. Gotta go, the lecture is starting! :D

jlwillia
Oct 5, 2007, 11:22 AM
I'm a first year law student in Nebraska. My universitie's "official" policy is that Macs are not supported. However, I'm in class right now attempting to listen to Civil Procedure and I spot 4 Macbook Pros, 5 or 6 Macbooks and I'm going to buy my MB Pro as soon as Leopard is released. There are about 80 or 90 students in my class.

Our lawschool requires Windows to use the test-taking software (no more writing out 10 page final exams in a bluebook), otherwise Macs would probably be more prominent. I believe the release of Leopard and Bootcamp will allow a new wave of Macs in law schools.

Even lawyers may be changing their ways to Mac....that is saying something!

CalBoy
Oct 5, 2007, 11:37 AM
OSX's security? PioneerPress, you're full of crap. Kids are buying Apple because "PCs are for fart huffers and Macs get you laid."
This actually isn't untrue (in other words, it could be true:p). Macs are very good looking...it isn't hard to imagine how their appeal lies outside of "the software."
Back in the day Apple gave hefty student discounts. Are they still giving deep discounts to students?

Not so much anymore. About $100. The discount also applies to faculty and staff.

As for how students afford Macs, at least at Princeton when I was an undergrad, if you were on financial aid (and FYI, many students here are not affluent and on financial aid), you automatically qualified for a loan to buy a machine. However they are getting them, they are all over the place. I currently work at the IT department for Princeton and right outside my door is one of the students' favored study areas. I have seen that little Apple logo multiply over the years like a bunny.

It seems that the discount has remained the same for the past four years or so (about $100 off of macbooks/iBooks and $200 off mbps/Powerbooks), but different schools give different bonuses for buying from their university stores. For example, a few posters have mentioned being able to get their macbooks for the standard $100 off retail, but it included an Applecare extension(up to three years) and software like Office or sometimes even an Adobe app (this of course, depends on the school one is in).

Veritas&Equitas
Oct 5, 2007, 11:40 AM
I'm a first year law student in Nebraska. My universitie's "official" policy is that Macs are not supported. However, I'm in class right now attempting to listen to Civil Procedure and I spot 4 Macbook Pros, 5 or 6 Macbooks and I'm going to buy my MB Pro as soon as Leopard is released. There are about 80 or 90 students in my class.

Our lawschool requires Windows to use the test-taking software (no more writing out 10 page final exams in a bluebook), otherwise Macs would probably be more prominent. I believe the release of Leopard and Bootcamp will allow a new wave of Macs in law schools.

Even lawyers may be changing their ways to Mac....that is saying something!
I'm a 3rd year law student here in MN. Macs are not supported either, and our exam software is SoFTest, so we need Windows to run it. However, in my class there are probably 7-8 people with a Mac, and we all plan on using Boot Camp come finals time. I'm the only one with a MBP though, they all have lowly Macbooks :p

Uragon
Oct 5, 2007, 11:48 AM
all i have to say is look at them apples (http://duggmirror.com/apple/Look_at_them_apples/cba56d2d8545c3b1818ab1c3c1ba58de_img_6671s.jpg)!


on digg a few days ago

thanks, that was incredible.....I will feel like a minority if me not using MB....
and would rather seat way-way back....
:cool:

Westside guy
Oct 5, 2007, 11:53 AM
Well, I fail to see why that software would be better than free, open-source software. It CAN be of course, but being closed does not automatically mean that it's better.

You are correct - shining examples of this include Apache's web server and Linux itself.

Speaking out of my experiences as a former desktop Linux user, though, one big problem that often hits "free" software is that the developers of many projects lose interest, often specifically because of the lack of remuneration, and the software stagnates and dies. Sometimes a project later recovers, thanks to a new developer or developers - examples are Enlightenment and Pidgin (the IM program formerly known as Gaim). But, more often, the project just sits and stagnates. This is not a problem I've ever run into with true commercial software.

blashphemy
Oct 5, 2007, 12:05 PM
I can honestly say I'm not surprised, it makes a ton of sense for college students to get OS X for reasons that we are all intricately aware of. However, I'm going to get a Wintel for one reason: tablet functionality. The IBM Thinkpad X60 tablet just makes so much more sense for taking notes that its even getting me not to get a Mac.

Of course, if Apple does make a proper Tablet PC by this summer, when I graduate, needless to say I will be the first person in the Apple retail store the next morning :D this is my point, really though: Apple needs to focus on the education market and make a Tablet PC so that there will be virtually 0 reason to not get a mac for college students; get Apple to focus on education.

MacHiavelli
Oct 5, 2007, 12:07 PM
How about a whole school of Macs:

http://www.apple.com/uk/education/profiles/bryanston/

Just found this on the Apple website - a school in the UK that runs their whole kit and caboodle on Apple :D

Quote from page 3 of the article:

++++++++++
This kind of [product] stability has enabled us to push the boundaries of educational technology. As far as we’re concerned, the products coming out of Apple allow us to say, ‘The reason we use this stuff is because it’s good.’
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guzhogi
Oct 5, 2007, 12:20 PM
IMO, it'll take a while for Macs to get a considerable larger total market share. Right now, I believe Macs have 5-6% market share, while Windows has something like 90%. A lot of people will will get PCs because "Well, most of the world is a WIndows world so I might as well fit in." With Leopard & Boot Camp, it should help bring some more people over.

As for security, having such a small market share is a good thing in some respects b/c it lets us Mac users have security by obscurity. So basically, why would you want to hack a computer platform w/ only 5-6% market share when there's a platform w/ 90%? If/when Macs get more market share, don't be surprised to see more malware, people trying to hack, et al, Macs.

offwidafairies
Oct 5, 2007, 12:25 PM
Apple DOES have pretty good education discounts.
Makes me want to buy another mac before I graduate even though my current Dell Desktop is more than adequate :rolleyes:

Digitalclips
Oct 5, 2007, 12:27 PM
Imagine what will happen if 92% of the world’s personal computer population consists of Apple machines. Will a similar problem as in the Windows world emerge? Will Apple fall victim to the same lame practices? In other words; is this a blessing or potential curse? :confused:

If Apple gains a 92% world share I'll be a multi-millionaire due to the value AAPL will reach ...so bring it on :D

guzhogi
Oct 5, 2007, 12:27 PM
You are correct - shining examples of this include Apache's web server and Linux itself.

Speaking out of my experiences as a former desktop Linux user, though, one big problem that often hits "free" software is that the developers of many projects lose interest, often specifically because of the lack of remuneration, and the software stagnates and dies. Sometimes a project later recovers, thanks to a new developer or developers - examples are Enlightenment and Pidgin (the IM program formerly known as Gaim). But, more often, the project just sits and stagnates. This is not a problem I've ever run into with true commercial software.

I agree. Open source has the opportunity to have anyone and everyone be able to edit the code. Yet, w/o pay, there's very little motive to do it other than just the love of it. For commercial software, only a set group of people get to see the code, but the $$ is there. In some ways, it would help to have open source that you have to pay for, just to give incentive to do it.

guzhogi
Oct 5, 2007, 12:30 PM
Apple DOES have pretty good education discounts.
Makes me want to buy another mac before I graduate even though my current Dell Desktop is more than adequate :rolleyes:

Or you can go into education as a career. I'm the computer techie @ an elementary school & I get an educational discount.

tpouliot
Oct 5, 2007, 12:35 PM
Without any official support by our IT department, my company of ~60K people...20% of them are now using a MacBook/Pro. I hear they are going to start offering them as an official device.

The only downfall right now is Exchange...I hope leopard helps out with this or I may have to dump Mail.app + GroupCal for Entourage 2008 for better Outlook / calendaring integration...uggg.

I do have Parallels, but use maybe once a month for stupid websites that say IE is the only supported browser and exits.

Ugg
Oct 5, 2007, 12:36 PM
On MacBreak Weekly (http://www.twit.tv/mbw) a few weeks ago, Merlin Mann made a very interesting observation. What would be the Mac's market share if we looked only at personal (rather than business) computers? In other words, people who buy the computer they want to use, versus what is on their desk at the office. The analogy he made was leading car figures (Ford leading in overall sales, versus Toyota leading for family car (i.e. taking out fleet sales, rentals, etc.).



I've often wondered what percentage of home computers are Macs. Since Apple hasn't made much headway into the enterprise market, the total sales figures for pcs are heavily weighted towards business purchases.

What I'd like to see is an hourly breakdown of browser usage. I'll bet a lot more Macs are browsing the internet in the evenings than during business hours.

quik
Oct 5, 2007, 12:43 PM
Just this year at UQAM (Montreal), most of people use MacBooks and MBPs!

I even saw an old PowerBook G4 :)

With the great discount + free iPod, there's really no reason to NOT buy an Apple laptop anymore...

I already converted some friends :)

METOO999
Oct 5, 2007, 12:46 PM
At my college in NY, I see a lot of Macbooks on the laps and desks of kids. Also, the library has a borrowing system where you can get a PC laptop or a Macbook, and they tout the Windows/OS X-dual boot ability of the Macbook for people who need it. Ah, progress.

About laptops in lecture halls, one of my profs banned them in his class because one day with a guest speaker, he sat in the back and noticed lots of students playing games instead of taking notes (shocker).

alansky
Oct 5, 2007, 12:54 PM
These numbers are much higher than the general population, in which Mac marketshare numbers have been hovering around 5-6%.

But most all of these college students presumably have parents who are the ones actually paying for all these computers. It's hard to imagine how the computer preferences of this army of well-educated young people could fail to have a significant impact on the future buying habits of their families.

pagansoul
Oct 5, 2007, 01:04 PM
My company stripped all the Games off our Dells (we use XP). If they were on, no one would get any work done. I would expect over half of the kids toggle back and forth between notes and something else.

TheBobcat
Oct 5, 2007, 01:08 PM
Here at Michigan State, I'd say at least 1 out of 4 people have some type of Mac laptop when strolling the library or classes.

jellomizer
Oct 5, 2007, 01:15 PM
Imagine what will happen if 92% of the world’s personal computer population consists of Apple machines. Will a similar problem as in the Windows world emerge? Will Apple fall victim to the same lame practices? In other words; is this a blessing or potential curse? :confused:

Yes it would, It would probably be worse then Microsoft if Apple got 92% Market share. Apple controls the hardware and software... Huge Market share like that will cut down on innovation of hardware as well in software. This is what I see for fair market share.

Linux 15% It has less polish then the other Major OS's but being free, stable and working on different hardware will be it biggest plus.

Apple 35% At this Market Share amount the fact that you need to get Apple Hardware and Software will be it major limiting factor.

Windows 40% It will still be the market leader but with much stronger competition, There will be more focus on making itself better and tighter to keep the lead. The fact that it runs on different hardware and its polish will keep it at number one but at greatly reduced level.

Others 10% The other BSD and OS's being that they play friendly with Apple and Linux (Unix and Unix like OSs) will get some market share because people need something more custom for their needs.

mongoos150
Oct 5, 2007, 01:46 PM
It's completely true - and Macs aren't seen as just for artsy majors any more. I go to a big Pac-10 school (U of A) and there are tons of powerbooks/MBPs on campus. My roommate is an optical engineering major and he switched to a Mac last year. He has to run all of his programs in Bootcamp, but when he's doing personal things, he only uses OS X.

To those who said a Macbook would be sufficient enough for taking notes as opposed to a MBP - that's correct, but parents are buying their kids what they want. The MBP is "pretty" - and they get it, even though they don't need it. College students have wealthy parents nowadays, at least here at Arizona (mostly California kids) empowered by their parents. I've seen two Lamborghini Murcialagos, three Ferrari F430s and a slew of Range Rovers, M5s and SL55 AMGs on campus. I'm not rich, but a hell of a lot of students are.

Unspeaked
Oct 5, 2007, 02:11 PM
Exactly why would anyone vote negative on this...? I don't get it...

krunk
Oct 5, 2007, 04:04 PM
offwidafairies and MacBsct, specifically post that students buy Macs to look cool.

In my humble experience, coolness is a fringe benefit. The majority of folks I've personally converted were not impressed by the "cool factor" at all. In fact, the number one (empty) retort they would give is "I don't buy computers cause they look cool, I buy them to get the job done" etc., etc.

How did I convert these folks who thought macs were all flash and no substance? Easy. I loaned them my iBook for a week or so. (I have several computers between work and home).

My own parents are a perfect example. They are both older and the windows learning curve was not easy for them. They worked hard to understand this new technology and were downright put off at even the idea of having to learn a completely new way of doing things...at least in their view, it being a completely new operating system that looked very different to a computer amateur based solely on appearances.

When I moved further away and began working more, troubleshooting their windows machine was a huge PITA. Don't give them admin accounts? Their anti-virus wouldn't work properly, my father couldn't play the RTS games he'd become fond of, etc etc. I delivered an ultimatum: Let me buy you a mac or no more support. They caved.

3 weeks later my mother called and told me switching was the best thing I'd ever had her do. Said she always felt like she was struggling just to figure out how to do things in windows whereas in osx it seemed to work the way she thought it would. Now she has time to learn how to do things with her computer rather then just learning her computer. She has her own blog, photo collections, downloads music instead of going to the store, the list goes on.

She still knows next to nothing about computers. But oddly enough, if you looked at what she does *with* her computer...you'd think she was solidly intermediate and almost geeky.

SiliconAddict
Oct 5, 2007, 05:45 PM
Yes. Apple has mindshare at schools and universities. MacBooks, Macbook Pros, Mac Pros, iMacs, iPods. So the question remains. WHERE IS YOUR DAMN HEAD APPLE?!?! Good god man. E-books! E-books! E-books!
Instead of carrying 15 tons of books you have a ebook reader that links to the iText Media Store which in turn links to your school's bookstore. And e-reader.com might I suggest. Someone please bean Jobs in the head with this idea ASAP. I frankly don't give a flying [beep] about the iPhone. You want to change the world? Kill the paperback and let me download RSS feeds in the morning to read on my iText on my way to work. There is a revolution waiting, and it ain't with the damn iPhone.

GoodWatch
Oct 5, 2007, 05:58 PM
Yes. Apple has mindshare at schools and universities. MacBooks, Macbook Pros, Mac Pros, iMacs, iPods. So the question remains. WHERE IS YOUR DAMN HEAD APPLE?!?! Good god man. E-books! E-books! E-books!
Instead of carrying 15 tons of books you have a ebook reader that links to the iText Media Store which in turn links to your school's bookstore. And e-reader.com might I suggest. Someone please bean Jobs in the head with this idea ASAP. I frankly don't give a flying [beep] about the iPhone. You want to change the world? Kill the paperback and let me download RSS feeds in the morning to read on my iText on my way to work. There is a revolution waiting, and it ain't with the damn iPhone.

Yes, I have thought of this very often. With the advent of ‘digital ink’ it should be feasible. But I still don’t find it comfortable reading from a tablet. I like holding a book, magazine or newspaper in my hands. I know the iReader (pun intended) is the future, why waste tons of natural resources if you can distribute all written content by electronic means? But still, I like my books. :D

CalBoy
Oct 5, 2007, 06:05 PM
Yes, I have thought of this very often. With the advent of ‘digital ink’ it should be feasible. But I still don’t find it comfortable reading from a tablet. I like holding a book, magazine or newspaper in my hands. I know the iReader (pun intended) is the future, why waste tons of natural resources if you can distribute all written content by electronic means? But still, I like my books. :D

I like books too. Even though about half of our weekly readings are currently distrubted online, I still print them out and read them. Something about good old fashioned paper and ink just makes reading easier. :o

matthewHUB
Oct 5, 2007, 06:12 PM
I think one of the great things for college students is that you can just close the screen in-between lectures and let the mac sleep. Hibernating or sleeping on a PC just makes me itch. it's crap.

Eidorian
Oct 5, 2007, 06:43 PM
I think one of the great things for college students is that you can just close the screen in-between lectures and let the mac sleep. Hibernating or sleeping on a PC just makes me itch. it's crap.It works just fine for me in Windows and OS X.

Hibernation in OS X is another story.

SiliconAddict
Oct 5, 2007, 07:21 PM
I like books too. Even though about half of our weekly readings are currently distrubted online, I still print them out and read them. Something about good old fashioned paper and ink just makes reading easier. :o

There will always be books, like there will always be an affinity for records. However the benefits now that e-ink is here far outweigh the cons. as far as I'm concerned the advent of e-books really taking off will be as big as the Gutenberg's Printing Press. And for the one big reason: Once e-books hit a critical mass writers no longer have to go through a publisher to get their wares to the masses. As cheap as binding a book is now a days, and god knows it HAS come down in price, its still far an away much more expensive then distributing a PDF or e-book on the net.
There are some really good web based literature out there that can only be viewed via the net. The problem is there is no good device for viewing such content. A laptop monitor? I think not. A PDA? Close but too small (My iPaq 4700 4" VGA screen is good, yet it still is cramped.
No Apple NEEDS to jump into this market. The big problem though as I see it is the publishers. They are just as bad as the RIAA. Go to most e-book sites. Their wares are almost as expensive as their paper counterpart which IMHO is a load of crap.

PS- And imagine libraries. A certain segment can do it all online. No longer do you need to drive somewhere to get a book. Open up iTMS, enter your library card which will take you to your local library where you can rent books, and audio books (Did I forget to mention the iText will have a 512MB internal storage that has a slider in iTunes that you can divvy up between audio books and e-books.? :D
I kid you not. I would get down on my hands and knees and lick Steve Jobs's shoes for a e-reader ecosystem from them. *does the whole phone hand gesture thing* Steve. Call me. We can schedule a time and date.

cdj948
Oct 5, 2007, 07:22 PM
I think one of the great things for college students is that you can just close the screen in-between lectures and let the mac sleep. Hibernating or sleeping on a PC just makes me itch. it's crap.

I couldn't agree more! I attend University, and thats all i do between classes... open it up when your at your next class and everything is just as you left it with no wait what so ever.

SiliconAddict
Oct 5, 2007, 07:27 PM
I think one of the great things for college students is that you can just close the screen in-between lectures and let the mac sleep. Hibernating or sleeping on a PC just makes me itch. it's crap.

*sighs* No it doesn't. As long as you have the correct drivers, updated firmware, etc its fine. My Thinkpad had all kinds of problems with hibernating (I loath suspend. Waste of power. ARE YOU LISTENING APPLE! IMPLEMENT HIBERNATION AS A USER ACCESSIBLE FEATURE!) Until I went with a centrino solution for WIFI. Since then its been flawless. Its all about the drivers. as long as you are geek enough you generally won't have any problems. And its even better in Vista. hibernating or Standby is faster then even OS X and this is on a MBP I'm measuring the performance.

CalBoy
Oct 5, 2007, 07:34 PM
There will always be books, like there will always be an affinity for records. However the benefits now that e-ink is here far outweigh the cons. as far as I'm concerned the advent of e-books really taking off will be as big as the Gutenberg's Printing Press. And for the one big reason: Once e-books hit a critical mass writers no longer have to go through a publisher to get their wares to the masses. As cheap as binding a book is now a days, and god knows it HAS come down in price, its still far an away much more expensive then distributing a PDF or e-book on the net.
There are some really good web based literature out there that can only be viewed via the net. The problem is there is no good device for viewing such content. A laptop monitor? I think not. A PDA? Close but too small (My iPaq 4700 4" VGA screen is good, yet it still is cramped.
No Apple NEEDS to jump into this market. The big problem though as I see it is the publishers. They are just as bad as the RIAA. Go to most e-book sites. Their wares are almost as expensive as their paper counterpart which IMHO is a load of crap.

PS- And imagine libraries. A certain segment can do it all online. No longer do you need to drive somewhere to get a book. Open up iTMS, enter your library card which will take you to your local library where you can rent books, and audio books (Did I forget to mention the iText will have a 512MB internal storage that has a slider in iTunes that you can divvy up between audio books and e-books.? :D
I kid you not. I would get down on my hands and knees and lick Steve Jobs's shoes for a e-reader ecosystem from them. *does the whole phone hand gesture thing* Steve. Call me. We can schedule a time and date.

Granted, electronic publishing makes life easier in a lot of ways, and also increases efficiency, but what about the ease of reading? Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but I prefer a book made of paper. I haven't see one of the new "e-ink" readers yet (well that's not true, a guy on BART had one the other day) in order to judge how easy they are to read. If they can match a piece of paper, I'll take it. If not, I'll waste my time and drive to the library.

SiliconAddict
Oct 5, 2007, 07:54 PM
Granted, electronic publishing makes life easier in a lot of ways, and also increases efficiency, but what about the ease of reading? Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but I prefer a book made of paper. I haven't see one of the new "e-ink" readers yet (well that's not true, a guy on BART had one the other day) in order to judge how easy they are to read. If they can match a piece of paper, I'll take it. If not, I'll waste my time and drive to the library.

I've seen a couple. Its close to paper. Very close. Not perfect. I'd say 80-90%. But e-ink is a tech. Its implementation that brings how close it is to paper. So you cant based the tech on on company's implementation of it.
Sony's latest e-reader (Literally one that launched this last week.) is suppose to be very close to paper. Now imagine a reader that doesn't use a dang button to change pages but your finger across the page. (Sound familiar?) And before someone brings up battery life. Battery life is measured in weeks not days with e-ink based readers. Expect that to get up to months in the coming years as the tech matures.

CalBoy
Oct 5, 2007, 09:36 PM
I've seen a couple. Its close to paper. Very close. Not perfect. I'd say 80-90%. But e-ink is a tech. Its implementation that brings how close it is to paper. So you cant based the tech on on company's implementation of it.
Sony's latest e-reader (Literally one that launched this last week.) is suppose to be very close to paper. Now imagine a reader that doesn't use a dang button to change pages but your finger across the page. (Sound familiar?) And before someone brings up battery life. Battery life is measured in weeks not days with e-ink based readers. Expect that to get up to months in the coming years as the tech matures.

Like I said, I'll check it out (because it does sound like it has very good potential) but I'll be a fairly harsh critic. However, if it comes to muster, I'll get one.

On a side note, has anyone with one of these things noticed more eye strain with it than regular paper? This is one of the factors that would go into my decision making process, as law school would not be fun if eye strain was a constant problem.

Kashchei
Oct 5, 2007, 11:23 PM
To anyone in academia: it is exceedingly easy to persuasively argue that dual-boot machines need to be bought using grant money. Two machines for the price of one (or the price of Parallels if you want to go that route). I just successfully did this for my department and we are now the proud owners of 36 new 20" iMacs. The best part: these machines replace our old Dell machines. Some of our students have already complained that they have never used Macs and don't want to have to even try something new. This is the audience we need to reach, the ones who know little to nothing about computers and aren't willing to expand their horizons. Once they get some perspective on how much better OS X is from Windows, they'll be converts.

If more schools are able to do something similar, Apple could easily continue to increase their market share.

mrplow
Oct 5, 2007, 11:50 PM
Kind of surprised that Carnegie Mellon University, ranked #1 for CS, wasn't mentioned... Macs absolutely dominate the campus.

mamabigdog503
Oct 6, 2007, 01:23 AM
These numbers are actually the results of a plan Apple put in place 20 years ago. Apple has been the primary choice for many, many schools and school districts for years. These kids are the product of learning in a Mac environment from Day 1. As these kids age and move into college, staying with Apple is the most natural thing in the world. Why would they go to another product, when the one they've been so familiar with all their lives is right there, and so much cooler than those other ugly boxes with stuff they don't have history with.

It's a brilliant plan, actually. Get them hooked while they're young, keep it relevant as they grow up, and they will drive the bigger market someday.

Expect to see these numbers continue to rise as this generation ages. Apple hasn't even gotten started yet.

MBD

Eidorian
Oct 6, 2007, 01:31 AM
*sighs* No it doesn't. As long as you have the correct drivers, updated firmware, etc its fine. My Thinkpad had all kinds of problems with hibernating (I loath suspend. Waste of power. ARE YOU LISTENING APPLE! IMPLEMENT HIBERNATION AS A USER ACCESSIBLE FEATURE!) Until I went with a centrino solution for WIFI. Since then its been flawless. Its all about the drivers. as long as you are geek enough you generally won't have any problems. And its even better in Vista. hibernating or Standby is faster then even OS X and this is on a MBP I'm measuring the performance.I really have to agree here. I closed my Dell laptop from work running Windows XP while on the bus today after starting some work. I fell asleep and didn't wake up for an hour. I was freaking out that my battery was dead and I wouldn't be able to save anything. I just open my laptop and it restores from hibernation and Access 2007 is there just like I left it. My battery only dropped from 87% to 81%. As much as I love OS X, this clunky old Dell knew what to do and all that I did was enable hibernation in the Power Management Control Panel.

Dear Apple,

Enable hibernation for us weary travelers that don't want a dead battery if we forget to shut off our closed laptops.

Westside guy
Oct 6, 2007, 01:41 AM
I really have to agree here. I closed my Dell laptop from work running Windows XP while on the bus today after starting some work. I fell asleep and didn't wake up for an hour. I was freaking out that my battery was dead and I wouldn't be able to save anything. I just open my laptop and it restores from hibernation and Access 2007 is there just like I left it. My battery only dropped from 87% to 81%. As much as I love OS X, this clunky old Dell knew what to do and all that I did was enable hibernation in the Power Management Control Panel.

Hibernation shouldn't be using the battery at all - that's the whole point of hibernation versus sleep/suspend. Hibernation writes the existing state of the computer, including the contents of RAM, to a file on the hard disk - then it shuts down completely. There's no power draw during hibernation, so your battery shouldn't drop no matter how long the machine hibernates.

I prefer sleep/suspend mode (and have turned off "safe sleep" so the disk image isn't written at all), and preferred it even back when I owned a clunky old Dell Inspiron. MUCH faster recovery when powering back up; plus from a practical point of view you'd have to leave your laptop asleep for several days before you'd have to worry about the battery dying.

Eidorian
Oct 6, 2007, 01:46 AM
Hibernation shouldn't be using the battery at all - that's the whole point of hibernation versus sleep/suspend. Hibernation writes the existing state of the computer, including the contents of RAM, to a file on the hard disk - then it shuts down completely. There's no power draw during hibernation, so your battery shouldn't drop no matter how long the machine hibernates.

I prefer sleep/suspend mode (and have turned off "safe sleep" so the disk image isn't written at all), and preferred it even back when I owned a clunky old Dell Inspiron. MUCH faster recovery when powering back up; plus from a practical point of view you'd have to leave your laptop asleep for several days before you'd have to worry about the battery dying.I understand how hibernation works.

My laptop went to sleep when I closed it and then it hibernated itself automatically. The sleep light was flashing before I nodded off and I woke to see that it wasn't doing so anymore.

The battery life in sleep mode is remarkable but I'd rather hibernate my machine.

SiliconAddict
Oct 6, 2007, 02:24 AM
Hibernation shouldn't be using the battery at all - that's the whole point of hibernation versus sleep/suspend. Hibernation writes the existing state of the computer, including the contents of RAM, to a file on the hard disk - then it shuts down completely. There's no power draw during hibernation, so your battery shouldn't drop no matter how long the machine hibernates.

I prefer sleep/suspend mode (and have turned off "safe sleep" so the disk image isn't written at all), and preferred it even back when I owned a clunky old Dell Inspiron. MUCH faster recovery when powering back up; plus from a practical point of view you'd have to leave your laptop asleep for several days before you'd have to worry about the battery dying.

Umm not really. Even overnight it drops at least 5% for me if not more. I've never timed it but it NOT a trivial amount. There have been instances where I get up in the morning and I may have at most a couple minutes of battery life remaining, instead of the half hour I had the previous night. So I need to trudge out to my car and grab my adapter all because Apple doesn't allow you to define when to hibernate after X amount of time, something that Windows has done for years.
My ThinkPad is set to go into suspend after 15 minutes of nonuse on battery (1 hour on external power.) and then hibernate after 1 hour on battery. (3 on external power.) What you are suggesting is you aren't a fan of flexibility. Something that MS and XP\Vista's power management has and sadly OS X doesn't because of the insane need to adhere to K.I.S.S. I wish there was a command line switch to turn on hidden advanced features in OS X. Because frankly the OS frusterates me in the way it treats everyone like a child noob who has never touched a computer. Would it kill Apple to place a slider to control the fan speed on your laptop to keep it cool? (Simple slider where it shows on one side cool, lower battery life, and noisy and on the other hot, extended battery life, and quiet.) Or advanced power mgmt features?
Windows biggest PITA's is the fact that it has so many settings that it confuses nontechy people. This is a blessing and a curse depending on the person. I wish someone would come out with an OS that during setup will ask you how comfortable you are with computers (Novice, intermediate, professional, 1337!) and customize the UI and its settings based on your choice. But hey. Why would we ever want choice. :(

Fortimir
Oct 6, 2007, 09:18 AM
Of course, lest we forget, when you get to a college/university level... many many colleges not only have only Macs on campus and recommend Macs to students...

...several colleges REQUIRE incoming freshmen to purchase Macs.

I'm not saying colleges don't do the same with PCs, but that is going to skew mac numbers in that level of education.

Westside guy
Oct 6, 2007, 11:51 AM
Umm not really. Even overnight it drops at least 5% for me if not more. I've never timed it but it NOT a trivial amount.

On more than one occasion I've (accidentally) left both my Dell - back in the bad old days - and my Powerbook asleep instead of powered down for periods greater than 2 days. The battery certainly dropped, but in both cases the charge left was still well over 50%.

Of course I am working plugged-in much of the time; so dropping 30-40% over a few days wasn't problematic. If you're already starting with a drained battery then you do have to worry about losing unsaved work. :)

Quiara
Oct 6, 2007, 11:56 AM
Umm not really. Even overnight it drops at least 5% for me if not more. I've never timed it but it NOT a trivial amount. There have been instances where I get up in the morning and I may have at most a couple minutes of battery life remaining, instead of the half hour I had the previous night. So I need to trudge out to my car and grab my adapter all because Apple doesn't allow you to define when to hibernate after X amount of time, something that Windows has done for years.


Wow, weird. I sleep mine overnight all the time and it's never down more than 2% - 3% the next morning.

Hibernation is a good option, though, that I wish we as Mac users had. But sleep ain't bad. ^_^

Westside guy
Oct 6, 2007, 12:00 PM
I understand how hibernation works.

My laptop went to sleep when I closed it and then it hibernated itself automatically. The sleep light was flashing before I nodded off and I woke to see that it wasn't doing so anymore.

Ah, that makes sense. I mistakenly assumed you were putting it directly into hibernate mode.

I think one of the factors that swayed me against hibernation was (in my pre-Mac days) I routinely dual-booted my machines between Red Hat Linux and Windows. Managing hibernation in that sort of setup requires some user intervention because the machine has to go through the boot process prior to recovering the system state from the hibernation file. Unlike sleep, hibernation is managed in an OS-specific manner - so Windows, for example, expects the NT loader to manage the start of the system state recovery. It's too bad the various OSes haven't worked out a method that would be more generic; but I suppose for the vast majority of people it doesn't matter (since they only ever use one OS), so the incentive is pretty low.

plumosa
Oct 6, 2007, 12:36 PM
These numbers are actually the results of a plan Apple put in place 20 years ago. Apple has been the primary choice for many, many schools and school districts for years. These kids are the product of learning in a Mac environment from Day 1. As these kids age and move into college, staying with Apple is the most natural thing in the world. Why would they go to another product, when the one they've been so familiar with all their lives is right there, and so much cooler than those other ugly boxes with stuff they don't have history with.

It's a brilliant plan, actually. Get them hooked while they're young, keep it relevant as they grow up, and they will drive the bigger market someday.

Expect to see these numbers continue to rise as this generation ages. Apple hasn't even gotten started yet.

MBD

I don't find this to be very accurate. I'm 25 and the first computer I used that didn't just play games (hello COMPAQ Portable) was a Mac Classic and we used Apple II's in school for the first few years.


HOWEVER, by the time we actually were using the internet at school, it was all switched to PCs. To me, macs were something to play Oregon Trail and maybe write a paragraph or two.

Fast forward 15 years and I've come back to mac, not because I used them as a child, but because I was sick of PCs breaking down and windows crapping out all the time. Most people stay with PCs because "they're the most comfortable thing" because that's what most people used growing up with the internet age, not mac. This trend of switching is based on a superior product.

Quiara
Oct 6, 2007, 12:38 PM
I agree. I'm 28 and in high school, we were all PC. And even when I was a freshman at uni in 97, we were all PC, with a few departments being Mac-centric. I really think that if there was some "master plan" by Apple reaching back 20 years ago . . . it kind of failed. The late interest in Macintosh computers and the OS are due to recent innovation - not some secret seeds of revolt planted in the children of the 80s.

Virgil-TB2
Oct 6, 2007, 03:33 PM
Imagine what will happen if 92% of the world’s personal computer population consists of Apple machines. Will a similar problem as in the Windows world emerge? Will Apple fall victim to the same lame practices? In other words; is this a blessing or potential curse? :confused:Apple will never be on 92% of the World's computers.

More likely, what will happen is a continuation of the historical trends already happening now.


Microsoft will likely try to copy Apple again and re-write windows to be on top of a BSD foundation.
Microsoft will get closer and closer to OS software. More and more parts of Windows will become open source.
Open source will get closer to Microsoft. OS communities will continue to imitate Windows in hopes of getting market share.
Microsoft will continue to execute very poorly. Balmer is so "almost fired" already. :)

So it's likely that Microsoft will continue to do poorly, and lose market share both to Linux and OS-X. Eventually, it will have to slice off it's "negative revenue" parts as the market gets tighter. This means Microsoft will have to get out of X-Box, games, advertising, media sales, and ditch it's failed executives. "Lean and mean" will be the order of the day and this is the point at which Balmer get's fired in the resulting re-organisation. Yay!

Eventually, eventually...

even this re-organisation will fail and Windows will gracefully (and almost un-noticed), slide into "freeware."

They will still (together with Linux and other freeware), command something like 75% of the market, and Apple will make the only computers that people are willing to pay for even though they will be a lot cheaper than they are today. People will be willing to do this because they will get a computer that "just works" and needs no setup. This will still be about 25% of the market only.

Apple will, on the other hand have much bigger slices of various consumer electronics markets and will be bigger than Sony is now. The iPhone will be so ubiquitous it will be just called a "phone," and probably your TV/Stereo and some of your robotics will be made by Apple.

Westside guy
Oct 6, 2007, 04:06 PM
Microsoft will likely try to copy Apple again and re-write windows to be on top of a BSD foundation.



This seems extremely unlikely. Microsoft has always tried to stress that its kernel is superior to the *nixes. With Vista, they rewrote their own IP stack largely to get rid of the one they'd borrowed from BSD years ago (and, incidentally, somehow managed to forget many of the security problems from the past decade, so they got bit with them again during the beta cycle).

I'm not saying they wouldn't be smart to use a Linux or BSD foundation; but I can't see them doing it.

GoodWatch
Oct 6, 2007, 04:30 PM
Apple will never be on 92% of the World's computers.

More likely, what will happen is a continuation of the historical trends already happening now.

Microsoft will likely try to copy Apple again and re-write windows to be on top of a BSD foundation.

Thank you for taking the time to give such an extensive answer. :) I’ve thought about your first point often but in hindsight. Windows, as desktop OS, is still Microsoft’s biggest cash cow with the largest margin. They have lost 1.9 billion on the X-Box so far and are losing on the Zune as well. But still they have mind boggling turnover and profit figures. I think the EU is going to push for the consumer’s right to buy every computer without an OS. For people who are uncomfortable installing and configuring an OS this will make no difference and if I guestimate, a lot of those don’t live in ‘nerd town’. If they buy a car, it must come with an engine and not with an engine of their choice in a crate. The whole Vista project has become so immense, like a super tanker, that it will be very difficult to steer it in a different direction. MS have pockets deep enough to start from scratch, learn from their own and other’s mistakes and come up with a whole new OS. But if it is not 100% backward compatible (with all the consequences) with the former Windows, it will die with grace very soon. That is the inevitable Catch-22 if there is an installed base worth billions of Dollars, Euros and Yen, etc. Apple made a very, very smart move. It could not have done so if they had 92% of the market.

But that steady and easy flow of income will become less in the future. No, let me rephrase this, MS can’t take this steady flow for granted anymore. But all of this is only amounts to ‘crystal ball gazing’. I have already taken the decision to switch. I’ve been contemplating this over a year and started to read magazines, sites and bought an OS X 10.4 book. In my household are already 3 iPods although that wasn’t the main reason.

Westside guy
Oct 6, 2007, 04:52 PM
I’ve thought about your first point often but in hindsight. Windows, as desktop OS, is still Microsoft’s biggest cash cow with the largest margin.

I don't believe you're right about this. I think Microsoft Office is, by far, their biggest cash cow. I've heard this from a lot of sources, but the only direct evidence I can provide is this...

Microsoft donates a LOT of software to the university where I work (I'm a web/IT person) through MSDN. They provide virtually all of their software to students, staff, and faculty - for free. Windows XP and Vista, Visual Studio, Sharepoint Server (pretty much all of their server offerings), etc.; there's something like 150 different packages available. But you know what's NOT there? Microsoft Office. People can buy it for a discount through MSDN; but Microsoft is adamantly opposed to giving Office away.

Eidorian
Oct 6, 2007, 04:55 PM
I don't believe you're right about this. I think Microsoft Office is, by far, their biggest cash cow. I've heard this from a lot of sources, but the only direct evidence I can provide is this...

Microsoft donates a LOT of software to the university where I work (I'm a web/IT person) through MSDN. They provide virtually all of their software to students, staff, and faculty - for free. Windows XP and Vista, Visual Studio, Sharepoint Server (pretty much all of their server offerings), etc.; there's something like 150 different packages available. But you know what's NOT there? Microsoft Office. People can buy it for a discount through MSDN; but Microsoft is adamantly opposed to giving Office away.I have to agree here. Microsoft does a good job of pushing its software on college students. I don't believe that there's any software that's more then $45 from them. Office 2004 was $11 for me.

I'm cheap so I got Visual C# 2005 Express Edition for free. :p

I like how it just merged the registration into my TechNet account. :D

GoodWatch
Oct 6, 2007, 05:01 PM
I don't believe you're right about this. I think Microsoft Office is, by far, their biggest cash cow. I've heard this from a lot of sources, but the only direct evidence I can provide is this...

Microsoft donates a LOT of software to the university where I work (I'm a web/IT person) through MSDN. They provide virtually all of their software to students, staff, and faculty - for free. Windows XP and Vista, Visual Studio, Sharepoint Server (pretty much all of their server offerings), etc.; there's something like 150 different packages available. But you know what's NOT there? Microsoft Office. People can buy it for a discount through MSDN; but Microsoft is adamantly opposed to giving Office away.

I can't argue because I don't know where I put the article where I've I read this :( What I do 'know' is that MC receive about 35 Euro for every PC with (or without?) Windows. And a lot of PC's are being sold world wide.

Anyhoo, I'm an IT clown as well and I have to sign the yearly bills for using MS software on our site. I know why Mr. Gates has a 54 billion dollar bank acount and why I had so save up for my iMac :(

Westside guy
Oct 6, 2007, 07:06 PM
Anyhoo, I'm an IT clown as well and I have to sign the yearly bills for using MS software on our site. I know why Mr. Gates has a 54 billion dollar bank acount and why I had so save up for my iMac :(

Yeah, all the free stuff we get from MS - including regular, free trainings for our IT manager - is likely one of the reasons our group won't support Macs (an executive decision made by the aforementioned IT manager). That may have to change, though, because right now something like 1/4 of our faculty are now using Macs for their personal machines; most of them having just joined the Mac community within the past few years. Generally what faculty want, they get - and that'll probably mean we'll offer some level of Mac support. Up until now, I've been (unofficially) helping them.

The argument has been "we don't want to create more work by adding another OS to support". But the thing is, not supporting Macs is creating support issues! For instance: we (my department, not the computing group) put out several different publications each year. The UW's Publication Services is all Mac; our outside designer uses a Mac; but our in house press person is forced to use InDesign on a PC. Quite often fonts don't cross platforms correctly (or we have to buy them extra for PC), there are occasionally image and/or layout issues, etc. - problems the computing group ends up spending time to resolve - simply because we wouldn't give our press person a Mac. When I load the docs up on my Macbook Pro there are no problems.

I guess I should just be happy that I'm allowed to bring my own Mac laptop in for use. :D

cjcamilla
Oct 6, 2007, 08:39 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

The DailyPrincetonian reports (http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2007/10/05/news/18871.shtml) on a growing trend amongst at least some universities.

The Princeton University (http://www.princeton.edu/main/) newspaper reports that Princeton's Mac marketshare has been rising dramatically, with 40 percent of students and faculty currently using a Mac as their personal computer. This number is up from only 10% of Mac users on campus only 4 years ago. And this number could still be growing. This year, the University's Student Computer Initiative reportedly sold more Macs than PC's, with 60 percent of students choosing a Mac, up from 45 percent just last year. Students were offered a choice of Dell, IBM and Apple computers.

This follows a recent report (http://www.twincities.com/business/ci_7030265) that looked at a similar trend at many other colleges. According to a separate Pioneer Press survey (http://www.twincities.com/business/ci_7030129), Dartmouth is up to 55% freshman with Macs (up from 30% in 2005), University of Virginia with 20% of freshman with Macs (up from 17% in 2006), and Cornell with 21% dorm network users with a Mac (up from 5% between 2000-2002).

PioneerPress attributes the uptick in sales to the popularity of the iPod, security of Mac OS X, design and ease of use.

These numbers are much higher than the general population, in which Mac marketshare numbers have been hovering around 5-6%. (All of these figures may not be directly comparable, as marketshare numbers typically represent new sales in a particular time-period rather than the installed base. Regardless, the numbers are still significantly higher than would be expected.)

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/05/mac-marketshare-at-universities-booming/)
So what? Only reason you guys are getting all horny about this is because iPod sales have increased awareness of a computer company called Apple. You think college kids REALLY went "Hmm, I went to Apple.com recently, and searched iMacs because my friend recommended it. They look pretty awesome.". College kids, in fact, everyone, probably went "My iPod is so cool, I might just get these things called iMacs!"

Now that the Zune got a WHOLE lot better, these statistics won't mean anything. iPod sales will go down, Zune sales will go up, and everything will be the way it was in the 90s.

Lara F
Oct 6, 2007, 08:48 PM
I agree. I'm 28 and in high school, we were all PC. And even when I was a freshman at uni in 97, we were all PC, with a few departments being Mac-centric. I really think that if there was some "master plan" by Apple reaching back 20 years ago . . . it kind of failed. The late interest in Macintosh computers and the OS are due to recent innovation - not some secret seeds of revolt planted in the children of the 80s.

I'm 29 and would also agree. In elementary school I'd go with my best friend to her Mom's office and we'd play on a Mac of sort sort (Apple II I'm guessing?) But by the time Windows 95 rolled around in high school Apple was pretty much out of the picture, and that stayed through undergrad (97-2000). I did hear a bit about OSX but not enough to interest compared to XP.

What started to convert me was the day iTunes became available for Windows - I still remember the "hell freezes over" headline. :P I downloaded it out of curiosity, and the interface just "worked" for me. I liked it enough to get a 3G iPod as a result (back when it wasn't a household name) and finally took the leap with Tiger and the 2nd revision G5 iMac. My best friend's yet to be converted back though.

Going to Intel was a brilliant move (especially when timed with a poorly received Vista release), and hopefully today's college students will become tomorrow's executive Mac users. But Apple needs to keep having a superior product to keep their mindshare. And same goes for the kids growing up today using Macs.

WannaGoMac
Oct 6, 2007, 11:43 PM
So what? Only reason you guys are getting all horny about this is because iPod sales have increased awareness of a computer company called Apple. You think college kids REALLY went "Hmm, I went to Apple.com recently, and searched iMacs because my friend recommended it. They look pretty awesome.". College kids, in fact, everyone, probably went "My iPod is so cool, I might just get these things called iMacs!"

Now that the Zune got a WHOLE lot better, these statistics won't mean anything. iPod sales will go down, Zune sales will go up, and everything will be the way it was in the 90s.

Nice troll
No wait, it's actually pretty poor.:rolleyes:

C'mon, you can troll better than that... at least try. ;)

Quiara
Oct 7, 2007, 01:05 AM
I'm 29 and would also agree. In elementary school I'd go with my best friend to her Mom's office and we'd play on a Mac of sort sort (Apple II I'm guessing?) But by the time Windows 95 rolled around in high school Apple was pretty much out of the picture, and that stayed through undergrad (97-2000). I did hear a bit about OSX but not enough to interest compared to XP.

What started to convert me was the day iTunes became available for Windows - I still remember the "hell freezes over" headline. :P I downloaded it out of curiosity, and the interface just "worked" for me. I liked it enough to get a 3G iPod as a result (back when it wasn't a household name) and finally took the leap with Tiger and the 2nd revision G5 iMac. My best friend's yet to be converted back though.

Going to Intel was a brilliant move (especially when timed with a poorly received Vista release), and hopefully today's college students will become tomorrow's executive Mac users. But Apple needs to keep having a superior product to keep their mindshare. And same goes for the kids growing up today using Macs.

I converted the minute OS X was released. I'd been reading about it and I knew if it was half as awesome as the pre-writes made it sound, it was for me. I bought the first iMac that came with OS X in 2001. It made me happy. ^_^

(PS - don't feed the trolls and they eventually die of attention starvation. Maybe s/he'll go find a nice Amish commune and get a life. But I did have to giggle at the whole "now that the Zune has got better. . ." Pfft!)

virduk
Oct 7, 2007, 03:15 AM
ive only seen about 5 macs at adelaide uni in australia including mine. the whole uni is so "pc". i guess the mac market share hasnt caught on in adelaide yet!

That's my experience here in Newcastle (Australia) too. Even amongst the web development crowd of students and staff there's no Mac usage. A little surprising I thought given the discounts Apple offers compared to other vendors. Though it may just be that with students they are in the cheaper end of the market (sub AU$1000 laptops).

I assumed based on various bits of press that outside the U.S. there really hasn't been much of an uptick in Mac marketshare.

Genghis Khan
Oct 7, 2007, 04:56 AM
well, at my uni, macs and pcs are pretty much 50/50, with most new ones being macs

but what i think is the pattern we see here is prestige

macs are seen as a luxury item almost, and the two uni's mentioned that have a mac dominance are prestige uni's (Princeton in the article, and Melbourne Uni for me)...just goes to prove that you can't prove something for all uni's by surveying one of them:rolleyes:

:apple:but they're definitely getting more popular:apple:

krunk
Oct 7, 2007, 11:02 AM
My battery only dropped from 87% to 81%.


There have been instances where I get up in the morning and I may have at most a couple minutes of battery life remaining, instead of the half hour I had the previous night.

Hmm, let's look at these two statements. First, you say in a bus ride home (let's say 30m) your laptop dropped 6% due to hibernation. Next, you say you left your Apple laptop suspended all night with 30m left in battery time and awoke to a couple of minutes (let's say 5m).

For arguments sake, we'll say battery time in energy savings is 5 hours for both laptops. So, for percentage we divide time suspended by total time.

Hibernation: 6% of 300m = 18m for 30m of hibernate time = .6 bat minutes for every minute slept

Suspend: 25m/300m = 8%, 25m/(60*8) = .05 bat minutes per minute slept

Now, hibernate may be far superior but your anecdotal metric is completely off base. In 8 hours of osx suspend time you consumed only 10m more of batter time then the 30m on a bus ride (5% loss, .05*300 = 15m bat time consumed).

I'd be interested in the difference between an entire night of suspend v. hibernation on the same laptop with a totally charged battery before I drew any conclusions of whether the difference was trivial or not. Because if we took your examples at face value, suspend is far superior (which I don't think is true).

Eidorian
Oct 7, 2007, 11:05 AM
Hmm, let's look at these two statements. First, you say in a bus ride home (let's say 30m) your laptop dropped 6% due to hibernation. Next, you say you left your Apple laptop suspended all night with 30m left in battery time and awoke to a couple of minutes (let's say 5m).

For arguments sake, we'll say battery time in energy savings is 5 hours for both laptops. So, for percentage we divide time suspended by total time.

Hibernation: 6% of 300m = 18m for 30m of hibernate time = .6 bat minutes for every minute slept

Suspend: 25m/300m = 8%, 25m/(60*8) = .05 bat minutes per minute slept

Now, hibernate may be far superior but your anecdotal metric is completely off base. In 8 hours of osx suspend time you consumed only 10m more of batter time then the 30m on a bus ride (5% loss, .05*300 = 15m bat time consumed).

I'd be interested in the difference between an entire night of suspend v. hibernation on the same laptop with a totally charged battery before I drew any conclusions of whether the difference was trivial or not. Because if we took your examples at face value, suspend is far superior (which I don't think is true).

My battery only dropped from 87% to 81%.This was what I said.

Secondly, I was asleep for more then an hour. The last time I checked the battery it was at 87% and I didn't check it again until I restored the machine. I was still using it after I checked the battery percentage left and before I closed it. :p

It's not very good data beyond personal observations. :rolleyes:

krunk
Oct 7, 2007, 11:26 AM
Using only one OS in an academics encourages bad development practices (in the real world too, but with the high mac usage in academics, it's even more glaring).

For example, at my uni there are many, many web management applications that are absolutely necessary for day to day administration that simply don't work on macs (or anything but windows IE). The reason is because a good portion of the IT departments are windows only shops. Test only on windows, design only for windows, and thus are broken every where else. Often this is a direct result of that "free windows training" mentioned above.

Anecdotally, I was contracted to write a patient management web application. I was given the requirements and proposed a solution which involved a MySQL backend. After weeks of work with constant updates and feed back from my client the solution was completed. I was asked if it could tie into another database (migrating the data) and told them that as long as the db they used could maintain the same table/record layout it would be a seemless migration. (database abstraction for the win)

Come to find out the other team was using Access as a back end which was incapable of reproducing the tables. I'm not an access fellow, I protest no deep knowledge of why, but I was informed Access could not handle the table/attribute sizes (this was nothing fancy. in fact, extremely simplistic) and needed to split them across many tables.

This would require a significant rewrite consuming much time, the department had exhausted its funding for my time and so could not afford more. . . . in the end, the Access guys are having to rewrite the whole thing.

Lesson: If your company/school/etc has a diverse environment of users "The Microsoft Way" and the free training they provide will only cost you more in the long run. Your either developing for portability or your developing to redevelop.

Sam0r
Oct 7, 2007, 12:30 PM
Linux has wide selection of professional software. It might be software that you do not use, but they are there. Hell, the software you recommended, Eclipse, runs on Linux!

Too bad its ***** and has a user base of about 3.

nadinbrzezinski
Oct 7, 2007, 12:49 PM
Using only one OS in an academics encourages bad development practices (in the real world too, but with the high mac usage in academics, it's even more glaring).

For example, at my uni there are many, many web management applications that are absolutely necessary for day to day administration that simply don't work on macs (or anything but windows IE). The reason is because a good portion of the IT departments are windows only shops. Test only on windows, design only for windows, and thus are broken every where else. Often this is a direct result of that "free windows training" mentioned above.

Anecdotally, I was contracted to write a patient management web application. I was given the requirements and proposed a solution which involved a MySQL backend. After weeks of work with constant updates and feed back from my client the solution was completed. I was asked if it could tie into another database (migrating the data) and told them that as long as the db they used could maintain the same table/record layout it would be a seemless migration. (database abstraction for the win)

Come to find out the other team was using Access as a back end which was incapable of reproducing the tables. I'm not an access fellow, I protest no deep knowledge of why, but I was informed Access could not handle the table/attribute sizes (this was nothing fancy. in fact, extremely simplistic) and needed to split them across many tables.

This would require a significant rewrite consuming much time, the department had exhausted its funding for my time and so could not afford more. . . . in the end, the Access guys are having to rewrite the whole thing.

Lesson: If your company/school/etc has a diverse environment of users "The Microsoft Way" and the free training they provide will only cost you more in the long run. Your either developing for portability or your developing to redevelop.


Well I have used PCs exclusively for years... but the Macbook gets here tomorrow

I actually was pleased that the site I wrote for the company looked good on Safari, on the lemon I had to return on Friday. (that was another interesting story)

Now... with all the serious issues vista is having at the user end (at least for power users, if you're only going to use WORD you're fine, or exclusively microsoft products)... the reality is that companies are putting off upgrading to vista... what is more, companies are looking at both MAC and Linux systems. So if you are a student who knows at least Mac and WIN, that's a plus in your resume.

If they go for either, portability will happen...

I will also hazard to say that market share for Macs will only increase after Panther proves not to be a dog.

Me upgrade shy, will not touch the new OS for at least six months.

We were not truly early adopters with Vista (six months into the release cycle since the eight year old gaming machine finally croacked), and I think the wall in the office is begining to develop divots from... me put in installation disk... and wondering... will it run?

Ah the joys of doing IT at home...

:D

Now the comment made up board about Macs seen as a luxury item... absolutely.

And here is where the company has to change perceptions...

When you look at two similar machines from the Intel world and the Mac world the Intel machine (just the hardware) is about 200 dollars less. But... you knew it was comming... if you need to buy the software for it... aka Word et al, you are looking at another 300-700 dollars worth of money, depenidng on the suite you choose.

The average one, small business will put you behind round numbers four hundred dollars... I know, this gaming machine has it (and why I don't feel like buying a second licence for Mac)

So once you look at that, and add to your new Mac I-Works, you are either slightly cheaper or even skeeven.

But I only know that since I did a lot of the research looking at machines.

If I had not done that... we are talking about a more expensive machine, a luxury item.

Perceptions, somehow the marketing guys have to change those

The other major barrier is quite frankly the fact that there are not that many gaming programs for it... we looked at a mac earlier in the year for the gaming machine, why we went for the Intel. And there are not that many programs written for the mac for other specialized fields either.

I know why it is almost a closed shop in writing programs and third party are not as widespread as the Windows machines, but.

Selling points for a Mac:

Great for graphic design
Security, the fact that I will not have to buy Nortons or any other suite is kind of great...
And yes, they look kind of cool
And for me, not having to hit my head on the wall with a second box.

But there are many reasons why the market penetration has not been as good. In time I am sure it could be... especially if MS insists on taking that damn shotgun and shooting its foot off... which in my view they have done with Vista...

Drivers, drivers, drivers, I need to find a way to roll back this macihne to XP... been told it ain't as simple as just loading the OS on the drive and turning it on...

Research for another day...

krunk
Oct 7, 2007, 02:35 PM
But there are many reasons why the market penetration has not been as good.

In my humble opinion, there is really only one major reason why market penetration has not soured.

Business. Corporate is not buying macs. They account for the vast majority of unit sales I'd reckon (I did some brief searching...I'm sure the data is out there).

Why? Probably a lot of reasons, but none that Apple has put even a fraction of the effort into that they have in the consumer gadgets market.

So for the short answer: Why isn't apple souring in market penetration? They aren't trying to.

flopticalcube
Oct 7, 2007, 02:37 PM
nterestingly, however, I am beginning to see a lot of people who are forced to use Windows in the corporate world choosing Macs as their home platform.

GoodWatch
Oct 7, 2007, 03:52 PM
nterestingly, however, I am beginning to see a lot of people who are forced to use Windows in the corporate world choosing Macs as their home platform.

No, it has nothing to do with ‘being forced’. From my own perspective, there is no need for Macs on the desks of our users. They all use the same more than capable but relatively simple PC. Al PCs have the same RIS install and contain only six programs. If a PC or anything running on that PC fails we just RIS it, it takes 20 minutes. All data is stored on the network, all other programs that users might need are offered through a Terminal Server because they are exceptions. The desktop is locked-down, users cannot install programs themselves. EPO is used to enforce anti-virus. That’s it, the PC’s costs us about $700. In our particular environment, Macs would only increase costs without adding additional value. And why then, would they choose a Mac for home use? What does the average home user do? Browse the Internet, e-mail, print photographs, write letters and listen to music.

escalinci
Oct 7, 2007, 07:57 PM
I'm at Uni in Scotland, and I've seen almost as many macs as pcs. Support is great, there's some for Linux too. For instance, soon we'll be able to print things wirelessly from anywhere on campus (or in halls), despite the print server being all windowsy.

rorober
Oct 7, 2007, 08:22 PM
http://www.pizdaus.com/pics/MC3KUw7uCDtL.jpg

WannaGoMac
Oct 7, 2007, 08:25 PM
http://www.pizdaus.com/pics/MC3KUw7uCDtL.jpg

Is that real!?

That's hilarious!

What school is that?

rorober
Oct 7, 2007, 11:21 PM
http://www.pizdaus.com/pics/MC3KUw7uCDtL.jpg

I found it online and didn't change a thing. The school is University of Missouri.

krunk
Oct 8, 2007, 11:21 AM
I've heard this speech before. So I'll break it down for you having worked in similar environments.

No, it has nothing to do with ‘being forced’. From my own perspective, there is no need for Macs on the desks of our users. They all use the same more than capable but relatively simple PC. Al PCs have the same RIS install and contain only six programs. If a PC or anything running on that PC fails we just RIS it, it takes 20 minutes.

Netboot and NetInstall.

All data is stored on the network, all other programs that users might need are offered through a Terminal Server because they are exceptions.

Again, there's nothing prohibiting this sort of setup in an OSX/Unix environment.


The desktop is locked-down, users cannot install programs themselves. EPO is used to enforce anti-virus.

This can also be done in an OSX/Unix environment. However, a true multi-user environment with the ability to run software without effecting the core system allows for more versatility in this area in so far as allowing users to install personal software. Especially in conjunction with quota's on home directories. . . if you wish.


That’s it, the PC’s costs us about $700. In our particular environment, Macs would only increase costs without adding additional value. And why then, would they choose a Mac for home use? What does the average home user do? Browse the Internet, e-mail, print photographs, write letters and listen to music.
Depending on if the $700 includes monitors or not, the mac mini or iMac can match initial hardware costs. Especially if you buy last year's models when the new models come out (these are sold at significant discounts).
When you take into account no need for anti-virus licenses and a better overall security record and thus less man hours for maintenance as well as leveraging free software the monetary savings (or lack thereof) is not so clear cut.

I'm not arguing the case that you *should* switch, I just don't think the reasons given were applicable. Issues such as being locked into proprietary solutions which only run on windows, custom in-house windows only software, transition costs (e.g. even if osx has lower TCO, the cost of transition may mitigate it for the short term), a heavily MS services dependent office (Exchange, MSSQL, etc), and other such issues are far more to the point.

I would note that the majority of the above problems come hand in hand with management choices to indefinitely commit to the "one true way" mentality which is arguably a bad choice to start with. So the cost of transition to more open, secure, portable, and versatile platform could be viewed as the penalty for initially choosing a less secure, closed, non-portable, and rigid platform in the beginning. ;)

BTW all of the services you mention don't have to be run from OSX Server. You can actually accomplish everything with a Linux server on the backend.

GoodWatch
Oct 8, 2007, 11:35 AM
I've heard this speech before. So I'll break it down for you having worked in similar environments.

This was no speach, just the way it is. What you described is a green field situation. Hind sight, "what if". Our storage appliances don't run on Windows at all an our core business runs on IBM iSeries. I needn't say more, I presume. Or should I dump them too for X Servers?

krunk
Oct 8, 2007, 11:47 AM
This was no speach, just the way it is. What you described is a green field situation. Hind sight, "what if". Our storage appliances don't run on Windows at all an our core business runs on IBM iSeries. I needn't say more, I presume. Or should I dump them too for X Servers?

Now that is an excellent (and heretofore unmentioned) hurdle to switching. I am not an expert in iSeries, but as I understand it OSX and iSeries are a no go.

So that would fall under "proprietary, incompatible software" problem that I mentioned at the end of my post.

All I was saying is that the reasons you *did* mention were presented as if there was no alternate solution for OSX clients. . . which was not accurate. Terminal services, netboot/netinstall, locking down desktops, etc. etc.

There are very valid and real reasons that make transitions to OSX (or any platform) a significant hurdle. It's important to focus on those instead of ones that aren't really an issue.

flopticalcube
Oct 8, 2007, 11:47 AM
No, it has nothing to do with ‘being forced’. From my own perspective, there is no need for Macs on the desks of our users. They all use the same more than capable but relatively simple PC. Al PCs have the same RIS install and contain only six programs. If a PC or anything running on that PC fails we just RIS it, it takes 20 minutes. All data is stored on the network, all other programs that users might need are offered through a Terminal Server because they are exceptions. The desktop is locked-down, users cannot install programs themselves. EPO is used to enforce anti-virus. That’s it, the PC’s costs us about $700. In our particular environment, Macs would only increase costs without adding additional value. And why then, would they choose a Mac for home use? What does the average home user do? Browse the Internet, e-mail, print photographs, write letters and listen to music.

It has everything to do about being forced. End users usually have no choice in the hardware they are told to use. Do you give a choice to your end users? At home they have a choice.

CourtneyA1
Oct 8, 2007, 11:53 AM
USC's EMBA program 1/3 of instructors use a Mac to present.
My class of 45 now has 9 Macs up from 7 6 months ago, and 5 a year ago.

Its great to iChat during class too!

GoodWatch
Oct 8, 2007, 12:56 PM
Do you give a choice to your end users?

No, and everyone in his right mind wouldn't do either. Standardisation is one of the most important pilars of a smooth running IT environment. And not to mention cost saving. But this whole discussion isn't about this of course. Using Windows for whatever valid reason is always the wrong choice.... I appologize for being dragged into this AND making replies. I will refrain from this and only concentrate on my iMac and all it brings. Eh?

GoodWatch
Oct 8, 2007, 12:59 PM
Now that is an excellent (and heretofore unmentioned) hurdle to switching. I am not an expert in iSeries, but as I understand it OSX and iSeries are a no go.

So that would fall under "proprietary, incompatible software" problem that I mentioned at the end of my post.

All I was saying is that the reasons you *did* mention were presented as if there was no alternate solution for OSX clients. . . which was not accurate. Terminal services, netboot/netinstall, locking down desktops, etc. etc.

There are very valid and real reasons that make transitions to OSX (or any platform) a significant hurdle. It's important to focus on those instead of ones that aren't really an issue.

And never assume anything ;) ;) ;) That is a bad habbit of well, Windows users, isn't it? :p :p

cohibadad
Oct 8, 2007, 09:30 PM
So what? Only reason you guys are getting all horny about this is because iPod sales have increased awareness of a computer company called Apple. You think college kids REALLY went "Hmm, I went to Apple.com recently, and searched iMacs because my friend recommended it. They look pretty awesome.". College kids, in fact, everyone, probably went "My iPod is so cool, I might just get these things called iMacs!"

Now that the Zune got a WHOLE lot better, these statistics won't mean anything. iPod sales will go down, Zune sales will go up, and everything will be the way it was in the 90s.

lol. dumb

Consultant
Oct 9, 2007, 10:11 AM
I can honestly say I'm not surprised, it makes a ton of sense for college students to get OS X for reasons that we are all intricately aware of. However, I'm going to get a Wintel for one reason: tablet functionality. The IBM Thinkpad X60 tablet just makes so much more sense for taking notes that its even getting me not to get a Mac.

Of course, if Apple does make a proper Tablet PC by this summer, when I graduate, needless to say I will be the first person in the Apple retail store the next morning :D this is my point, really though: Apple needs to focus on the education market and make a Tablet PC so that there will be virtually 0 reason to not get a mac for college students; get Apple to focus on education.

Um, a good number of people can type faster than writing.

Consultant
Oct 9, 2007, 10:17 AM
*sighs* No it doesn't. As long as you have the correct drivers, updated firmware, etc its fine. My Thinkpad had all kinds of problems with hibernating (I loath suspend. Waste of power. ARE YOU LISTENING APPLE! IMPLEMENT HIBERNATION AS A USER ACCESSIBLE FEATURE!) Until I went with a centrino solution for WIFI. Since then its been flawless. Its all about the drivers. as long as you are geek enough you generally won't have any problems. And its even better in Vista. hibernating or Standby is faster then even OS X and this is on a MBP I'm measuring the performance.

Yes, sleep or hibernation are very buggy in windoze machines. Almost all windows user I know shuts down their computer, even for a 30 minute drive.

Apple current laptops does have hibernation mode. It is user accessible, but the terminal command doesn't seem to work on my Santa Rosa MBP.
http://www.macworld.com/weblogs/mac911/2006/10/safesleep/index.php

Consultant
Oct 9, 2007, 10:29 AM
I really have to agree here. I closed my Dell laptop from work running Windows XP while on the bus today after starting some work. I fell asleep and didn't wake up for an hour. I was freaking out that my battery was dead and I wouldn't be able to save anything. I just open my laptop and it restores from hibernation and Access 2007 is there just like I left it. My battery only dropped from 87% to 81%. As much as I love OS X, this clunky old Dell knew what to do and all that I did was enable hibernation in the Power Management Control Panel.

Dear Apple,

Enable hibernation for us weary travelers that don't want a dead battery if we forget to shut off our closed laptops.

Windoze have background processes running even when sleeping, which drains the battery.

Macs in contrast, maintains the battery level when the cover is closed, in either sleep mode or hybrid hibernation mode.

On the various different iBook G3, iBook G4, PowerBook G4, and MacBook Pro I've owned, I've never ran out of battery and thus never need hibernation, even if I run the battery down to 1 minute, and don't charge it for a day. (I have a 4 year old iBook that still gives me 4.5 hours of internet surfing time.)

Yes, Macs do have hibernation mode. Just because you "don't know" something doesn't mean it's not there. You are asking for a feature that's been included with every Mac for a couple of years.

Seems like you have not used a Mac laptop? Do I smell a troll?

flopticalcube
Oct 9, 2007, 10:36 AM
Windoze have background processes running even when sleeping, which drains the battery.

Macs in contrast, maintains the battery level when the cover is closed, in either sleep mode or hybrid hibernation mode.

On the various different iBook G3, iBook G4, PowerBook G4, and MacBook Pro I've owned, I've never ran out of battery and thus never need hibernation, even if I run the battery down to 1 minute, and don't charge it for a day. (I have a 4 year old iBook that still gives me 4.5 hours of internet surfing time.)

Yes, Macs do have hibernation mode. Just because you "don't know" something doesn't mean it's not there. You are asking for a feature that's been included with every Mac for a couple of years.

Seems like you have not used a Mac laptop? Do I smell a troll?

I don't understand this part of thread either. My MacBook loses 0.75% of power per hour when the lid is closed. It just sleeps quietly. I can send it to deep sleep through a widget but I don't think 0.75% per hour is really the end of the world.

PS. No way is Eldorian a troll. He's probably had more Mac laptops than I've had hot breakfasts and I love to eat!

krunk
Oct 9, 2007, 10:44 AM
So what? Only reason you guys are getting all horny about this is because iPod sales have increased awareness of a computer company called Apple. You think college kids REALLY went "Hmm, I went to Apple.com recently, and searched iMacs because my friend recommended it. They look pretty awesome.". College kids, in fact, everyone, probably went "My iPod is so cool, I might just get these things called iMacs!"

Now that the Zune got a WHOLE lot better, these statistics won't mean anything. iPod sales will go down, Zune sales will go up, and everything will be the way it was in the 90s.

Actually, every single switcher I know (whether they also owned an iPod before or not) made their decision based on personal recommendation or having seen someone using osx and said "wow, that looks really nice...huh? No viruses? Nice!". Some like the looks, others liked the OS their friends were using, some saw friends using the bundled iLife and such, and many a programming friend drooled over the unix backend. It had nothing to do with the iPod.

Seriously. I've NEVER heard anyone say "My iPod is sooo cool, I got to get a mac now!" But I have frequently heard "Why would I want a mac? My iPod works fine with windows."

Eidorian
Oct 9, 2007, 11:12 AM
Windoze have background processes running even when sleeping, which drains the battery.I can say the same for OS X while it's asleep. kernel_task to windowserver (PID 1 to 68 for me) would like to have a talk with you. mds and automount are my friends too.

Sleep is a low power state regardless of the operating system. The only requirement is that it's support by the operating system's power management features. The sleep state is still using a minimal amount of energy.


Macs in contrast, maintains the battery level when the cover is closed, in either sleep mode or hybrid hibernation mode.How so? I guess that flashing light doesn't consume power either.


On the various different iBook G3, iBook G4, PowerBook G4, and MacBook Pro I've owned, I've never ran out of battery and thus never need hibernation, even if I run the battery down to 1 minute, and don't charge it for a day. (I have a 4 year old iBook that still gives me 4.5 hours of internet surfing time.)I've never run out of battery power either in my laptop usage. I still think that giving OS X users the option to hibernate in order to save even more battery life. I don't want to have to reboot my entire machine in the field when I could just hibernate it. The sleep state is still using power albeit a small amount.


Yes, Macs do have hibernation mode. Just because you "don't know" something doesn't mean it's not there. You are asking for a feature that's been included with every Mac for a couple of years.Safe Sleep (http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=302477) is nice but why can't you make it user controllable?


Seems like you have not used a Mac laptop? Do I smell a troll?+2 years and over 8,000 posts here on MacRumors. I'm #30 on post count if you want to check the members list. :D Not to mention at administer a department of Macs and Windows machines. I suggest that you don't question my credentials without looking into them.

Check me out on Apple's mailing lists as well.

PS. No way is Eldorian a troll. He's probably had more Mac laptops than I've had hot breakfasts and I love to eat!Thank you

Consultant
Oct 9, 2007, 11:18 AM
I don't understand this part of thread either. My MacBook loses 0.75% of power per hour when the lid is closed. It just sleeps quietly. I can send it to deep sleep through a widget but I don't think 0.75% per hour is really the end of the world.

PS. No way is Eldorian a troll. He's probably had more Mac laptops than I've had hot breakfasts and I love to eat!

You see, Eldorian is asking for hibernation, a feature that's part of OS X for over 2 years. The hibernation feature can actually be implemented in many of the older Macs too. See my post #181

So if he's not a troll, then he is quite uninformed.

Also, in term of battery usage, it's Mac compared RELATIVELY to the other option, which is wintel only machines. Compared to the drain on wintel machines, the Mac's sleep/safe sleep/hibernation mode has relatively no drain on battery.

Eidorian
Oct 9, 2007, 11:21 AM
You see, Eldorian is asking for hibernation, a feature that's part of OS X for over 2 years. The hibernation feature can actually be implemented in many of the older Macs too. See my post #181

So if he's not a troll, then he is quite uninformed.As I said, Safe Sleep (http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=302477) is there to provide a backup in case you lose power while your Mac is asleep on battery power.

It's just not a easily user controllable. I can set my current Dell laptop to hibernate after a certain period of sleep inactivity. I found this quite useful when I nodded off with my closed laptop. I understand that sleep's battery usage on its own is minimal.

Consultant
Oct 9, 2007, 11:44 AM
Meant to post this page instead:
http://www.macworld.com/weblogs/macosxhints/2006/10/sleepmode/index.php

What's so difficult about this?

sudo pmset -a hibernatemode [insert 0, 1, 3, 5, or 7 here]

Eidorian
Oct 9, 2007, 11:46 AM
Meant to post this page instead:
http://www.macworld.com/weblogs/macosxhints/2006/10/sleepmode/index.php

What's so difficult about this?

sudo pmset -a hibernatemode [insert 0, 1, 3, 5, or 7 here]Once again, easily user controllable.

Try getting average Mac Joe to use Terminal.

Not that it's hard to make a GUI application or script for this. Why doesn't Apple do it then?

Consultant
Oct 9, 2007, 12:00 PM
I see you are insistent. If you want it, why don't you make an automator script, or make a widget? Probably take less time than reading what I said and replying to it. =p

Later on, I'll see how fast my Mac Genius friend can make an automator script, although for most users, the current sleep setting is the best choice.

Eidorian
Oct 9, 2007, 12:01 PM
I see you are insistent. If you want it, why don't you make an automator script, or make a widget? Probably take less time than reading what I said and replying to it. =p

Later on, I'll see how fast my Mac Genius friend can make an automator script, although for most users, the current sleep setting is the best choice.I still don't want to pop my battery out after my machine enters Safe Sleep hibernation though. :p

Thank you for enlightening me a little more on Safe Sleep though. MacWorld's videos were informative.

Virgil-TB2
Oct 9, 2007, 02:13 PM
I don't believe you're right about this. I think Microsoft Office is, by far, their biggest cash cow. ... Office and Windows are the two "lynch-pins" of the Microsoft money printing facility.

Office does make a bit more, but if you think of these two as being almost the only money generating products they offer and if you think of the revenue they generate as being roughly 50 percent each, you aren't far off the actual figures.

Every other thing they do pretty much hemorrhages money. :D

So my prediction was that in any MS future re-organisation (a reasonable expectation), they will likely follow standard business procedure and sell off everything that doesn't actually make them money, (goodbye X-Box, Zune, etc.) and retire the exec responsible for the disaster that caused the re-organisation. They might also want to correct their "image problem" by shuffling out the old guard exec and going with a new, "re-invented" MS team.

If I was Balmer, I would be checking for knives in my back every morning before work. :p

Consultant
Oct 9, 2007, 04:58 PM
IMO, it'll take a while for Macs to get a considerable larger total market share. Right now, I believe Macs have 5-6% market share, while Windows has something like 90%. A lot of people will will get PCs because "Well, most of the world is a WIndows world so I might as well fit in." With Leopard & Boot Camp, it should help bring some more people over.

As for security, having such a small market share is a good thing in some respects b/c it lets us Mac users have security by obscurity. So basically, why would you want to hack a computer platform w/ only 5-6% market share when there's a platform w/ 90%? If/when Macs get more market share, don't be surprised to see more malware, people trying to hack, et al, Macs.

It would probably be worse then Microsoft if Apple got 92% Market share.


Do you personally know any hackers? Not script kiddies, but real hackers making viruses to infect Windows machines for profit?

See, a lot of hackers are using macs because it's the most capable OS / hardware combination out there (Macs can multi boot Mac OS x, Windows XP, Windows Vista, Linux at ease).

Combine lack of interest (because they don't want to destabilize Mac OS X, their tool of choice), Macs being harder to hack than Windows, and other reasons, theoretical exploits on the Mac are never taken advantage of by any hacker. So no matter what the possibilities are, despite of your wet dream being that all macs are hacked, zero real life exploits on Mac is still zero exploits.

Definitely more secure and usable than your frankenstein windows machine which you have to put days to trouble shoot, find drivers, install drivers, install virus protection (which slows down your CPU), perform frequent defrag, reformat after a few months.

sjwk
Oct 10, 2007, 08:28 AM
Just for the record, the numbers here for our students (UK higher education) are showing just over 10.5% running some version of OSX which, while still low, is a touch up from last year. 21% on Vista and 65% still on XP (either of which *could* of course be running on Apple hardware)

With teaching staff, the Apple numbers are currently lower, but growing more rapidly and some have recently switched back to Apple having moved to Windows before OSX came out.

krunk
Oct 10, 2007, 10:51 AM
As for security, having such a small market share is a good thing in some respects b/c it lets us Mac users have security by obscurity.

The numbers we're seeing on campuses makes me think otherwise. From previous links we see that campus usage is up to 50% and above in many cases.

So why would this be significant? Campuses are a prime target for bot nets. They normally have the best infrastructure around, relatively open networks, and a pool of users that are on the whole inexperienced and naive (18-25 year olds).

In ad dition they're a virtual cornucopia of personal information via on campus hospitals and student databases. I work in IT at my uni and it is frequently targeted by real hackers. Not script kiddies and email viruses (which of course are as prolific here as anywhere since they're all just shotgun approaches). Windows is always their preferred point of entry.

Why? There's one simple reason: Windows comes with oodles of services enabled while osx has none. For example, when you see a remote exploit in ssh pop up and go "ah ha! It's obscurity! OSX has vulnerabilities too." The fact that this service isn't even running on 90% of osx installs means the actual vulnerable pool of systems is far smaller then the total of all osx installs. Contrasted with windows, where a service vulnerability normally effects 100% of XP installs.

If the roles were reversed in this policy (osx with always on services and windows with always off), then the number of vulnerable osx clients per exploit could actually surpass the number of vulnerable windows pc's per exploit even with osx only having ~10% of the market. Now that's something to chew on.

We could go on with other glaring gaffs in MS's security choices, but it's like shooting fish in a barrel. This is why folks say "Obscurity sure helps, but OSX is more secure by design as well."

seenew
Oct 10, 2007, 11:11 AM
I go to the Savannah College of Art and Design, so you'd expect higher Mac numbers here, and they are. I'd say at least 7/10 people I know here use Macs. Mostly MacBook Pros.

chrismarks
Oct 10, 2007, 11:18 AM
I am in engineering and use my mac. I have never used a pc. I got a brand new macbook to repalce my old powerbook G4 and it works wonders at school. I see Macbooks everywhere these days on Campus. On my floor at least half the people have macs. My only problem is that I use SolidEgde (Autocad like program) and I need paralells to use it.:mad:

weberik
Oct 12, 2007, 12:09 PM
More law students are using Macs, too. I've been running Mac Law Students (http://www.maclawstudents.com/blog) for the past couple of years, and have seen plenty of evidence of marketshare growth. The move to Intel in particular has had a huge effect.