"Copying" music you own is "stealing"

[angelneo]

linkety (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20071002-sony-bmgs-chief-anti-piracy-lawyer-copying-music-you-own-is-stealing.html)

Oh good, now that Sony BMG's chief has came outright to say that "Making 'a copy' of a purchased song is just a nice way of saying 'steals just one copy' "

:eek:

[Stampyhead]

Just because some stupid lawyer says it doesn't make it true. As long as record companies continue to treat their customers like criminals they will continue to lose money.

[Queso]

Oh dear, well in that case I'm seriously guilty of copyright theft having ripped many a CD from my collection into iTunes. I look forward to Sony BMG sending the Police around.

That's if the Police aren't too busy knocking on everybody else's door....

[bartelby]

Sony BMG lost the plot with their illegal copy protection shenanigans a few years back.

[brad.c]

Studio execs might as well spend their time defining the legalities of theft, since in my mind they lost the ethical high ground long ago.

[Eraserhead]

I agree with the other posters, this is really lame and just makes everyone a pirate together, which means you might as well bittorrent the album/song :rolleyes:.

[PlaceofDis]

riiiiiight.

isn't copying music you've purchased protected under fair use?

[~Shard~]

I agree with the other posters, this is really lame and just makes everyone a pirate together, which means you might as well bittorrent the album/song :rolleyes:.

I'm not a pirate.... <hopes no one looks at avatar>

[Vuzie]

Geez, is Sony BMG now going to go after Apple and Microsoft (hell why not themselves) because they are aiding and abetting by marketing a product which promotes piracy by encouraging to move your music to an MP3 player. Sounds like someone there forgot their meds.

[gnasher729]

linkety (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20071002-sony-bmgs-chief-anti-piracy-lawyer-copying-music-you-own-is-stealing.html)

Oh good, now that Sony BMG's chief has came outright to say that "Making 'a copy' of a purchased song is just a nice way of saying 'steals just one copy' "

:eek:

She is employed by Sony. She receives a salary (money) for doing her work.

Surely if she comes out with such nonsense then she isn't doing her job properly, and since she receives money while not doing her job properly, that is stealing from Sony?

[Flynnstone]

So making a copy is illegal. Even with downloaded music.

So defraging your hard disk could be illegal because it copies music from one location to another on your hard disk.
If a hard disk is dying, copying from the old dying one to a new one is illegal.
So perhaps caching could be construed as illegal.
So perhaps Sony CD walkmans that have skip prevention could be illegal.

Absurd!

[gnasher729]

riiiiiight.

isn't copying music you've purchased protected under fair use?

No, "fair use" is something completely different. It covers situations where you had no permission by law or by the copyright holder to copy, but you have a valid excuse. Like copying two lines into a report analysing a book.

This is something completely different. For example, when you buy Leopard, you are allowed by law to make a copy to install it on your harddisk (you have to make that copy to use Leopard as intended, so you are allowed to do it), and you are allowed to make a backup copy. It has nothing to do with "fair use", you are just allowed to do it. Now if you had a problem with some part of Leopard, and you posted a screenshot here to get help (once it is released and not under NDA obviously), and that screenshot contains things copyrighted by Apple, _that_ would be covered by fair use.

The main reason why what she claims is nonsense from a practical point of view: _All_ CDs that I buy get copied immediately onto my Mac, and then the CD is stored away somewhere in a big box in the loft. I never look at it again. If I wasn't allowed to do that, then the value of the CD for me would be zero. Likewise, the value of a CD with DRM that my MacBook can't read is zero to me.

[Counterfit]

Oh dear, well in that case I'm seriously guilty of copyright theft having ripped many a CD from my collection into iTunes. I look forward to Sony BMG sending the Police around.

That's if the Police aren't too busy knocking on everybody else's door....

It would be UMG sending The Police around, if they aren't touring or something. :p

[OllyW]

Doesn't the stupid woman realise that her own company supply software to convert CDs to MP3 with their Walkman MP3 players :confused:

[bartelby]

Doesn't the stupid woman realise that her own company supply software to convert CDs to MP3 with their Walkman MP3 players :confused:

She knows and she knows she's calling her customers thieves.

[Stampyhead]

I think what we need at this point are clear, concise laws of what one can and can't do with the media one purchases (CD's, DVD's, downloads, etc.) so media lawyers don't go around making up laws themselves.

[Maui]

The record companies have been all over the map on the ripping-a-CD-you-own question. In the Grokster argument, their lawyer admitted (http://www.supremecourtus.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/04-480.pdf):



The record companies, my clients, have said, for some time now, and it's been on their website for some time now, that it's perfectly lawful to take a CD that you've purchased, upload it onto your computer, put it onto your iPod.



(See the top of page 12 in the link)

More recently, they have tried to back off that, arguing that the act of ripping (copying) is an unauthorized copy, but that the record companies will authorize the copy so long as it is reasonable to do so (whatever that means).

I'm pretty confident that a record label would lose if they brought suit against someone who merely purchased a CD lawfully and ripped it using iTunes and copied it to their iPod.

[skunk]

More recently, they have tried to back off that, arguing that the act of ripping (copying) is an unauthorized copy, but that the record companies will authorize the copy so long as it is reasonable to do so (whatever that means).It's about time that the record companies realised that it's not they who make the laws or interpret them.

[rdowns]

It's about time that the record companies realised that it's not they who make the laws or interpret them.

Not to mention it's about time the record companies embrace the digital age and figure out how to profit from it rather than trying to kill it.

[Doylem]

Not to mention it's about time the record companies embrace the digital age and figure out how to profit from it rather than trying to kill it.

That's just about the most concise summing-up that I've read.

I know next to nothing about business, yet even I'm aware that the genie is well and truly out of the bottle. The record companies huff and puff, and keep on making bizarre PR gaffes like trying to prosecute their own customers (and the ones who, by definition, love music the most)... when they really should be seeing the potential of digital and downloading.

[raggedjimmi]

Stop being silly Sony.

[Unspeaked]

trying to prosecute their own customers

Isn't the point that these aren't customers?

Not paying customers, anyway...

Are you a customer of Time-Warner if you steal your neighbor's cable?

[atszyman]

Is Sony going to eat itself from the inside?

October 2007 - In a bizarre move today Sony BMG sued Sony's electronics devision for "enabling copyright infringement" by making software available with their MP3 players that illegally converts audio from CDs.

November 2007 - Arguments have concluded the bitter Sony vs. Sony lawsuit and jury deliberations have begun.

November 2007 - Jury deliberations have concluded in the Sony vs Sony trial and the verdict was unanimous.

December 2007 - Sony filed for bankruptcy this week citing massive legal fees incurred in the Sony vs. Sony lawsuit which began in October. In a related story Sony's former lawyers are now topping the Forbes 500 list of wealthiest people in the world.

[Vuzie]

Is Sony going to eat itself from the inside?

Then... Steve Jobs forms a partnership with Disney/Pixar to buy the former Sony for $1.

[IJ Reilly]

Just because some stupid lawyer says it doesn't make it true. As long as record companies continue to treat their customers like criminals they will continue to lose money.

Got it in one. This attorney is espousing a theory of fair use which is not only contrary to existing law, the industry would probably be the big losers in the long run if such a scheme ever turned out to be enforceable.

[notjustjay]

I would like for one of these industry people to state, explicitly and in detail, how THEY think we're supposed to handle our music.

Should I buy every CD six times? One to keep in my car, one in my discman, one in the bedroom, one in the living room, one for the office, one for the kitchen?

I suppose I should keep a stereo and CD changer system beside every computer, too. And buy another copy of each CD for each of those.

I'll have to outfit the trunk of my car with sufficient shelving for all of the CDs I carry with me on road trips. You never know what I might want to listen to.

And forget about ever borrowing music from me, you dishonest thief. Go buy your OWN CD!

[LethalWolfe]

riiiiiight.

isn't copying music you've purchased protected under fair use?

The phrase you are looking for is "space shifting."


Lethal

[yetanotherdave]

I would like for one of these industry people to state, explicitly and in detail, how THEY think we're supposed to handle our music.

Should I buy every CD six times? One to keep in my car, one in my discman, one in the bedroom, one in the living room, one for the office, one for the kitchen?

I suppose I should keep a stereo and CD changer system beside every computer, too. And buy another copy of each CD for each of those.

I'll have to outfit the trunk of my car with sufficient shelving for all of the CDs I carry with me on road trips. You never know what I might want to listen to.

And forget about ever borrowing music from me, you dishonest thief. Go buy your OWN CD!

No, what they want to do is "license the disc to you" (so you don't "own it" and then make you pay per listen, as well an a monthly "enabling fee".

Only then will you be able to truly enjoy Britney Spears latest single.

[Vuzie]

Only then will you be able to truly enjoy Britney Spears latest single.
Urm, there isn't enough money in the world that could do this.

[Masterbuilder]

Reccord companies and movie studios are just flat out greedy.

They also cant stand technology or inovation. I think in their minds and the way they conduct their polices they are still selling 45 rpm's

First they decide to charge so much money for cd's that people can't resist the temptation to borrow a cd from a freind and rip ot or download and occasional song or three from limewire.

The last phyisical CD'S I purchased were about 8 years ago when I was 11, and for a about two months savings of 60 bucks I was only able to buy 3 cd's.

My whole opionion is CD'S should be sold for a flat fee of 5 bucks each. Let the kid with 50 bucks buy a nice selection of music and I am sure he will be more likely to spend his money vs stealing the music off of limewire. There would be less of a profit made off of each unit but I am sure that could be made back by selling in volume.

My message to the reccord companys if any of you are reading this; is be fair to your customers and they will be fare to you in return. You can't expect people to overpay for a product and not be able to use it fairly.

Sonys latest tantrum is sad. They even say it is illegal to make a backup copy.

I think what they want is to force people to buy a CD for their CD player and then in addition to that buy an electronic copy over the internet for their MP3 player. The movie studions are doing the same thing as they want to sell you a DVD to play on your TV, than sell you another copy to play on your computer and ipod, and then yet another in mini disc form to play on your PSP.

[IJ Reilly]

Reccord companies and movie studios are just flat out greedy.

Of course they're greedy -- they are in the business of making a profit.

[Doylem]

Music has been 'free to air' for far longer than it's been marketed by record companies. By 2020 we'll be wondering what all the fuss was about. Record companies will be a small part of our collective memory... nothing more. We'll remember them (if we remember them at all) for being greedy and imagining that they had some kind of monopoly over something as universal as music.

[davidwes]

Doesn't the stupid woman realise that her own company supply software to convert CDs to MP3 with their Walkman MP3 players :confused:

What I don't get is why didn't the women's lawyer bring that up? It seems that might have helped her not lose the case.

There were other things in the trial that the defense lawyer never even mentioned that I've seen online forums talking about.

[davidwes]

No, what they want to do is "license the disc to you" (so you don't "own it" and then make you pay per listen, as well an a monthly "enabling fee".

Only then will you be able to truly enjoy Britney Spears latest single.

I agree. Music companies want to be cable tv companies and have you on a monthly lease. 50 bucks each month please. Its funny that both those types of companies will be totally out of business in 10 years.

There is no reason for artists to not sell you the music directly, there is no reason a tv show can not sell you the show directly.

[LethalWolfe]

First they decide to charge so much money for cd's that people can't resist the temptation to borrow a cd from a freind and rip ot or download and occasional song or three from limewire.
I guess every company charges too much for all their products since on any given day everything from candy bars to exotic cars get stolen.

The last phyisical CD'S I purchased were about 8 years ago when I was 11, and for a about two months savings of 60 bucks I was only able to buy 3 cd's.
Shop at stores that don't have insane markups on CDs. Unless it's an import or double disc or something I usually pay $10-$15 for a CD.


My whole opionion is CD'S should be sold for a flat fee of 5 bucks each. Let the kid with 50 bucks buy a nice selection of music and I am sure he will be more likely to spend his money vs stealing the music off of limewire. There would be less of a profit made off of each unit but I am sure that could be made back by selling in volume.
I'm sure you've done the math and come up w/a viable business model that supports your opinion right?

I think what they want is to force people to buy a CD for their CD player and then in addition to that buy an electronic copy over the internet for their MP3 player. The movie studions are doing the same thing as they want to sell you a DVD to play on your TV, than sell you another copy to play on your computer and ipod, and then yet another in mini disc form to play on your PSP.
The consumers right to space and time shift is under attack and unfortunately the lawmakers in Washington aren't helping out. If you want to blame someone blame them, IMO. Our elected officials are supposed to look out for us, not sell their vote for the highest bidder.

I agree. Music companies want to be cable tv companies and have you on a monthly lease. 50 bucks each month please. Its funny that both those types of companies will be totally out of business in 10 years.
If music companies wanted to be like cable TV companies they wouldn't sell CDs.


There is no reason for artists to not sell you the music directly, there is no reason a tv show can not sell you the show directly.
There are a lot of reasons and most of them look like this, $$$$$$$$$. Most people don't have the millions of dollars (10's of millions if you are talking about a TV show) to pay for everything that it takes to create, market, distribute, etc., an album or TV show on a big scale.


Lethal

[mac 2005]

The recording industry needs to worry more about putting out a quality product and less about criminalizing its customers. I'm not clear on why these executives are going beyond the pale to equate mp3s with theft for people who purchase the CD, rip the songs to their mp3 player and then file the CD away in a drawer somewhere. Do they really expect we'll buy a CD for the stereo and then buy an mp3 file for the iPod?

[neonblue2]

I love Australia (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,19130870-1242,00.html) (the amendments went through late last year)

[Fuchal]

I love Australia (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,19130870-1242,00.html) (the amendments went through late last year)

Yes, there is great reason to love Australia (http://www.metalunderground.com/news/details.cfm?newsid=26245). Wait, no.

[Jovian9]

Maybe I am bias, but to me a MAJOR step against record companies is being made by Radiohead and their new album. They are initially releasing this album on their own via download for whatever price you want to pay, and then releasing a boxset that is BTO.

Regardless of what you think of Radiohead I think that any buyer of this album with the initial way it is being released is contributing to the "next step" towards the end of the current record company model.

Check it out:

http://www.inrainbows.com/Store/Quickindex.html

[phillipjfry]

At some point, everything we do aside from giving the goverment taxes will be considered illegal. Just roll with the punches :)

[Doylem]

Too many people in the 'music business' feel they are indispensible, and can't see an alternative future. They're joining a long long of people - thatchers, blacksmiths, the guys who used to walk in front of cars with a red flag, etc - whose jobs have been rendered obsolete.

Record companies have been charging their customers 'what the market will bear'. Now their customers are biting back. People have played and enjoyed music ever since we stood upright and banged two sticks together. We managed without greedy music moguls... we'll manage without them again...

[chris200x9]

I agree with the other posters, this is really lame and just makes everyone a pirate together, which means you might as well bittorrent the album/song :rolleyes:.


hahaha "Don't go to hell second class" hahaha....sorry just reminded me of this religious cd I heard and the minister was talking about if you do ANYTHING wrong you might as well go all in.

oh yea btw on a similar note do you know what is actually illegal.....ripping dvd's...yet no one has been prosocuted yet lol.

[JNB]

At some point, everything we do aside from giving the goverment taxes will be considered illegal.

Or cause cancer.

Or worsen global warming.

[tech928]

Sony, Sony, Sony... this company has so much potential in some industries (not Record), that make great TVs, camera, playstation (which unfortunately came out a year later that it needed to to be successful, but its still awesome) but come on the record and movie divisions of sony have always had problems, and it not just them. Sony is at this point the only record company that has tried to stop piracy of there Cds... failed really bad but tried. The record industries are in a bad situation where there is really nothing they can do (Sony needs to STOP trying) Somehow these file sharing websites need to be shutdown... that is the only way piracy will stop. Just cutting off limewire would stop a large amount of piracy.

Yes sony's methods are awful and I dont support them but it really is not the whole company that is bad.

[raggedjimmi]

^ They also had Lik-sang shut down too.

[andiwm2003]

people like her should simply be fired, disbarred and stored away in a mental ward.

even if she found a law that supports her view it would have to be changed because it's unrealistic to enforce it.

btw:

in this link is her public information: http://pview.findlaw.com/view/1755781_1

[Loge]

Maybe I am bias, but to me a MAJOR step against record companies is being made by Radiohead and their new album. They are initially releasing this album on their own via download for whatever price you want to pay, and then releasing a boxset that is BTO.

Regardless of what you think of Radiohead I think that any buyer of this album with the initial way it is being released is contributing to the "next step" towards the end of the current record company model.


Radiohead can take that risk because they've already made lots of money. I'm not convinced it is a viable model for emerging bands.

[Markleshark]

... and then they have the cheek to actually wonder why people pirate music.

All I have to say to Sony BMG is... Yarrrrrr!

[Stella]

riiiiiight.

isn't copying music you've purchased protected under fair use?

According to RIAA, consumers have no 'fair use' rights.

[mrkramer]

Radiohead can take that risk because they've already made lots of money. I'm not convinced it is a viable model for emerging bands.

Well they will find out and hopefully do good with it, which will then encourage other bands to do the same.

[bartelby]

There are quite a few bands who now go it alone.

Einsturzende Neubauten have been financially supported by fans for about 4 or 5 years now.

[twoodcc]

Just because some stupid lawyer says it doesn't make it true. As long as record companies continue to treat their customers like criminals they will continue to lose money.

now that's a very good way to put it. i agree with you

[Iscariot]

Interestingly, the RIAA has lost far more money pursuing cases against 'theft' than it's won in damages.

Dollar auction anyone?

[notjustjay]

Interestingly, the RIAA has lost far more money pursuing cases against 'theft' than it's won in damages.


The RIAA is a reasonable idea in theory. But then, so is communism. A chicken in every pot. Sounds good. But of course it doesn't stay very fair for long.

Your sig - Asteroids? :)

[bartelby]

Your sig - Asteroids? :)

Space Invaders, surely.

[Schtumple]

Slightly off topic but...

Are the record labels still taking down guitar tab websites?

I didn't realise a set of numbers, dashes and a few letters are copyrighted :S

The record labels are crashing and crashing hard....

[Doylem]

Whenever society goes through a major upheavel (industrial revolution, internal combustion engine, electricity, internet, etc), some people look to the future... while others cling to the past.

The record companies are trying to hang on to a business model that brought them huge profits in the second half of the 20th century. Now, when their livellhoods are threatened, they lash out and try to bully people.

They're the modern equivalent of the ostler, the hand-weaver, the blacksmith and the lamp-lighter. Their monopoly of the music business is over; they just don't seem to know it yet. Your average computer-savvy 10-year-old will have a more realistic understanding than the record companies about what the music 'industry' might become in the next, 10, 20, 50 years.

If the record companies hadn't tried to screw their customers for every last penny - and drop good musicians from their roster, to replace then with 'manufactured' groups - I'd feel more charitable towards them. Watching their power and influence dwindle is a harmless spectator sport. The next few years are going to be very interesting...

[LethalWolfe]

Slightly off topic but...

Are the record labels still taking down guitar tab websites?

I didn't realise a set of numbers, dashes and a few letters are copyrighted :S

The record labels are crashing and crashing hard....
The labels have nothing to do w/it. The MPA (Music Publishes Association), the trade group that works with the companies who sell sheet music, are the ones threatening legal action against tab sites.


Lethal