MLB Hotstove 08

[MacNut]

yankess.com (http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071108&content_id=2295793&vkey=news_nyy&fext=.jsp&c_id=nyy)NEW YORK -- Yankees general manager Brian Cashman plans to offer Alex Rodriguez salary arbitration this month, cracking open the door for the possibility that A-Rod could return to the Bronx -- though such a scenario remains overwhelmingly unlikely.
Cashman intends to offer A-Rod arbitration on the premise that he will almost certainly reject it. The Yankees have motives for doing so. If they offer him arbitration and he declines, they would be able to secure two Draft picks from whichever team ultimately signs him.

"Believe me, I'm going for the Draft picks," Cashman said. "So there's no doubt I'm offering him arbitration."

Because of A-Rod's high contract demands -- he reportedly sought at least $300 million -- there's little chance he would accept the offer. In the arbitration process, both the team and player submit salary requests to a league arbiter and are then bound by the ensuing decision.

Often, teams don't offer arbitration to star free agents -- and in doing so forfeit the Draft picks entitled to them -- out of fear that the player might accept. The team would then be forced to pay a salary it didn't expect for the upcoming season.

The Yankees have no such fear with A-Rod, due to his high demands. Any arbitration decision would result in a one-year deal with a no-trade clause, which doesn't come close to the type of contract A-Rod is seeking.

"Essentially, he'd be coming back in a non-guaranteed situation on a one-year deal," Cashman said. "I don't think they're accepting it."

A-Rod has until Dec. 7 to accept an arbitration offer. Should he reject, that would likely close any remaining window that he would return to the Bronx. The Yankees have said on numerous occasions that if A-Rod opts out of the remainder of his contract with the Yankees -- which he did during Game 4 of the World Series -- they won't pursue him as a free agent.

The Mets, Angels, Giants and Dodgers are all thought to be chasing A-Rod on the market.

Should one of those teams sign him, the Yankees would receive both a first-round pick and a sandwich-round pick in the 2008 First-Year Player Draft. That's no small consolation. In 2005, the Yankees landed Joba Chamberlain and Ian Kennedy with those two picks, and a year earlier, their top choice was C.J. Henry, the main chip traded to Philadelphia for Bobby Abreu. In 2004, they took Phil Hughes in the first round.

[fotografica]

http://www.courant.com/sports/baseball/hc-yankees1110.artnov10,0,4863725.story

Torre: A-Rod to Dodgers?

The hot stove buzz this morning is Joe Torre's coy remarks about Alex Rodriguez ending up in Dodger blue. Said Torre, "It's possible. It's possible. It's possible." There are a number of articles, but Dom Amore of the Hartford Courant reminds readers that Torre and A-Rod have been exchanging phone messages.

In Amore's article Torre adds that "you've got four or five clubs that figure to be in the sweepstakes." The Dodgers were on Jon Heyman's list of possible teams. If the Yankees offer Rodriguez arbitration, which he would decline, and he signs with the Dodgers, the Yankees would not gain a first round pick; however, I'd say the Dodgers and A-Rod make a good deal of sense. They'd certainly make room for him at 3B or SS. And Frank McCourt is the kind of owner not afraid to make a big splash.

[MacNut]

Can the Dodgers afford A-Rod without breaking the bank?

[IJ Reilly]

Can the Dodgers afford A-Rod without breaking the bank?

Nobody really knows McCourt's top line. He has invested substantially in Dodger Stadium renovations. I suspect he could afford an A-Rod deal -- the real question is what it does to the team's ability to fill out the starting rotation and other needs. I find the suggestion that Rodriquez could play short to be a little far-fetched, if only because it leaves third open (I doubt Torre is going to want to play Nomar or LaRoche there) and turns Furcal into a man without a position. A trade would have to be in order as well. Hmm, maybe a three-way deal that brings us Cabrera? Now that would be an awesome lineup.

[Sobe]

Nobody really knows McCourt's top line. He has invested substantially in Dodger Stadium renovations. I suspect he could afford an A-Rod deal -- the real question is what it does to the team's ability to fill out the starting rotation and other needs. I find the suggestion that Rodriquez could play short to be a little far-fetched, if only because it leaves third open (I doubt Torre is going to want to play Nomar or LaRoche there) and turns Furcal into a man without a position. A trade would have to be in order as well. Hmm, maybe a three-way deal that brings us Cabrera? Now that would be an awesome lineup.

Cabrera at 3rd and Arod at short, trading Furcal, LaRoche and a pitcher would be pretty nice.

[MacNut]

Cabrera at 3rd and Arod at short, trading Furcal, LaRoche and a pitcher would be pretty nice.Does A-Rod want to go back to short tho. He has been playing 3rd for 4 years.

[Sobe]

Does A-Rod want to go back to short tho. He has been playing 3rd for 4 years.

I have not heard one bit of info on what position Arod wants to play or even if it is an issue.

My thinking is that he was a fantastic fielding short stop so if he can do that he will...but it's pure speculation at this point.

In unrelated news, do my eyes deceive me or did Mariano Rivera file for free agency?

[MacNut]

In unrelated news, do my eyes deceive me or did Mariano Rivera file for free agency?He filed a few weeks ago.

[zioxide]

I don't think Lowell's going to be back.

[Naimfan]

I don't think Lowell's going to be back.

Why not? I thought it was all but a done deal?

[MacNut]

Why not? I thought it was all but a done deal?Im sure the Red Sox are not giving him the number of years he wants.

[zioxide]

Why not? I thought it was all but a done deal?

Because the offer has been on the table for like 2 days. If he liked it, he would have signed it already.

He knows he can get more on the free agent market.

[IJ Reilly]

Cabrera at 3rd and Arod at short, trading Furcal, LaRoche and a pitcher would be pretty nice.

I don't know about losing a pitcher, but a lineup including Rodriquez, Cabrera, Kent, Kemp and Martin sounds pretty good to me.

[Naimfan]

Because the offer has been on the table for like 2 days. If he liked it, he would have signed it already.

He knows he can get more on the free agent market.

Aha. That makes sense, although I thought he really wanted to stay in Boston? If the Yankees could sign him I think it'd be great for the Yankees and not good for the Sox.

[zioxide]

Aha. That makes sense, although I thought he really wanted to stay in Boston? If the Yankees could sign him I think it'd be great for the Yankees and not good for the Sox.

It's possible that he could still remain with the Sox. He might go out and test the market and get the Sox to give him a bit more. We shall see.


In other news, Dustin Pedroia is a ****ing bad ass. He played the last 2 months of the season and the playoffs with a broken bone in his left hand/wrist.

BOSTON -- He looked the part of a Boston favorite, throwing his body around the right side of the infield and exhibiting a tough-guy charm that belied his 5-foot-9 frame. So it's not surprising, perhaps, that Dustin Pedroia played that part -- quietly -- through pain.

Pedroia played the final two months of the 2007 season with a cracked hamate bone in his left hand, The Boston Herald reported on Saturday. Pedroia told the newspaper that he didn't know when the injury occurred, only that an MRI and bone scan on Sept. 10 revealed the break.

The rookie second baseman played in 30 games after the injury was discovered -- 16 in the regular season and 14 in the playoffs -- while missing only a Sept. 23 road contest against the Rays. Pedroia went 34-for-124 during that stretch, nevertheless playing a critical role in the Red Sox's late October offensive resurgence.

The hamate, a wedge-shaped bone found near the far side of the wrist of each hand, is particularly vulnerable to injuries among hitters. Nationals outfielder Wily Mo Pena missed nearly two months for the Red Sox in 2006 with a fractured hamate.

Teammates David Ortiz and Eric Hinske had their hamates removed early in their careers; Pedroia had his operation performed on Tuesday by Dr. Donald Sheridan in Scottsdale, Ariz., less than two weeks after the World Series concluded. The bone reportedly crumbled when Sheridan removed it, suggesting that much further activity would have come with significant risks.

http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071110&content_id=2297892&vkey=news_bos&fext=.jsp&c_id=bos

[Naimfan]

It's possible that he could still remain with the Sox. He might go out and test the market and get the Sox to give him a bit more. We shall see.


In other news, Dustin Pedroia played the last 2 months of the season and the playoffs with a broken bone in his left hand/wrist.


I think if I'm the Sox, I give Lowell pretty much whatever he wants--if it's an extra year, better that than lose him to the Yankees (which is the only other landing spot I've heard of for him).

As far as Pedroia goes, all I can say is ouch.

[IJ Reilly]

I think if I'm the Sox, I give Lowell pretty much whatever he wants--if it's an extra year, better that than lose him to the Yankees (which is the only other landing spot I've heard of for him).

Lowell would be a welcome addition to most teams. I think the Dodgers would show some interest if he doesn't re-sign with Boston, even though he hasn't quite got the power the Dodgers are after.

[Sobe]

Aha. That makes sense, although I thought he really wanted to stay in Boston? If the Yankees could sign him I think it'd be great for the Yankees and not good for the Sox.

not many 3b options out there in Free agency.

Maybe Boston will be involved with Cabrera or Arod after all....unless they plan on moving youk back to 3b and maybe shifting Drew to first.

[Naimfan]

not many 3b options out there in Free agency.

Maybe Boston will be involved with Cabrera or Arod after all....unless they plan on moving youk back to 3b and maybe shifting Drew to first.

True that. What concerns me as a Yankee fan is that the Red Sox have more flexibility than the Yankees do. Or, perhaps more accurately, the Yankees are a couple of years behind the Sox. The Yankees have some very good looking young players (obviously you never know until they play a full season) but appear to be behind the Sox time-wise.

I think the Yankees would be best served in the long run by letting Betimit play third next year and continuing to develop, knowing next year is a transition year no matter what happens as they bring Chamberlain, Hughes, Stewart, etc., along.

[zioxide]

Too bad Lowrie is still probably a year off. He could probably shift from SS to 3B.

[IJ Reilly]

I think the Yankees would be best served in the long run by letting Betimit play third next year and continuing to develop, knowing next year is a transition year no matter what happens as they bring Chamberlain, Hughes, Stewart, etc., along.

Good luck watching Wilson Betemit develop. We had that treat in LA. His best role by far was pinch hitting. He was hardly missed here at all.

[Naimfan]

Good luck watching Wilson Betemit develop. We had that treat in LA. His best role by far was pinch hitting. He was hardly missed here at all.

LOL--yep, I know--he's hardly an all-star in waiting, but I'd rather see the Yankees go with him than overpay for another free agent or give up solid young talent for another about-to-break-down free agent, which the Yankees have specialized in over the last few years (though they do appear to be improving).

I just don't think it's worth the Yankees going too far out of their way to get a body to play third base. . .

[Sobe]

True that. What concerns me as a Yankee fan is that the Red Sox have more flexibility than the Yankees do. Or, perhaps more accurately, the Yankees are a couple of years behind the Sox. The Yankees have some very good looking young players (obviously you never know until they play a full season) but appear to be behind the Sox time-wise.

I think the Yankees would be best served in the long run by letting Betimit play third next year and continuing to develop, knowing next year is a transition year no matter what happens as they bring Chamberlain, Hughes, Stewart, etc., along.

Transition year?

They just fired a manager who took them to the playoffs 12 years in a row. Did they really need to give Torre a performance-laden contract offer if in fact this is a s "transition year"?

I agree with you though. I think some transition is in order, which is exactly what Arod saw and didn't want to be a part of it. Neither did Torre.

The yanks are not that bad off though.

They have some kids with Cano and Melky, Hughes, Joba, Kennedy, Duncan.

The real issue is, will they be able to patch the holes and deal with their lack of pitching. Clemens is gone, Pettitte looks gone. Mussina is old and ineffective. Wang is good and you can build around him. Kei Igawa is a mess.

They have a lot of work to do to avoid dropping back considerably.

[Naimfan]

Yep, transition year. The Yankees are transitioning from the core that won 4 WS and from their (hit or miss) forays into free agency. And I think next year will be one of the years where they feel it most keenly. I don't mean to suggest it's a rebuilding year where they will be terrible--there is still a lot talent on the roster.

Re pitching--I think they're fine if they can wait for Chamberlain, Hughes, etc. to develop. Next year is the year to find out if they can pitch or not. I agree with you on Wang, although he strikes me as a second or third starter--he's definitely not a prototypical ace. I agree with you on Mussina--I think he's done, and on Igawa, who just looks like a mistake.

Next year is a time when we Yankees fans will have to have patience. Which is not something many Yankee fans are known for.....

[zioxide]

Next year is a time when we Yankees fans will have to have patience. Which is not something many Yankee fans are known for.....

King George and Princes Hank and Hal need to have patience too.

[MacNut]

King George and Princes Hank and Hal need to have patience too.Don't hold your breath....

[aloofman]

I find the suggestion that Rodriquez could play short to be a little far-fetched, if only because it leaves third open (I doubt Torre is going to want to play Nomar or LaRoche there) and turns Furcal into a man without a position.

I believe Furcal only has one year left on his contract? Rodriguez could play third in 2008 and have the option of moving to short if Furcal isn't re-signed.

But the other rumors are that Torre's presence in L.A. isn't going to be an enticement to Rodriguez.

[MacNut]

NEW YORK -- Jorge Posada prefers to stay with the New York Yankees and believes he is "really close" to reaching a new deal with the team.

"My first priority is the Yankees," the five-time All-Star catcher told reporters Sunday at halftime of the New York Knicks' game against the Miami Heat. "I would like to stay with the Yankees. My heart is with the Yankees, so hopefully we can get something done."

The Yankees' exclusive negotiating rights with Posada end on Tuesday, when free agents can talk money with all teams.

"We're working with the Yankees," Posada said. "Right now it's up in the air, but the chances are good."

Posada, coming off a season in which he hit a career-best .338 with 20 homers, 90 RBIs and 91 runs scored, has reportedly been offered a three-year deal for around $40 million by the Yankees. He is believed to be seeking a fourth year.

Posada also voiceed his support for new Yankees manager Joe Girardi, a teammate in the Bronx from 1996-99.

"I love Joe," he said. "He's been like a big brother to me since '96, so I'm really hopefully looking forward to working with him."

[MacNut]

Red Sox Dustin Pedroia wins AL Rookie of the Year, Brewers Ryan Braun Wins NL Rookie of the Year.

Pedroia finished 10th in the AL this season with a .317 average. That batting average was the all-time best for rookie second basemen, as Pedroia beat out Jim Viox of the 1913 Pirates by two percentage points.

The 24-year-old Pedroia -- who was drafted by the Red Sox with the 65th overall pick in the 2004 First-Year Player Draft -- led all Major League rookies in doubles with 39 and was second in on-base percentage (.380) and third in runs (86).

After the rough April, Pedroia hit .415 in May, .333 in June, .299 in July, .346 in August and .302 in September.Braun's offensive numbers made a compelling case. He batted .324 and led NL rookies with 34 home runs and a .634 slugging percentage, breaking the Major League rookie record set by Mark McGwire, who slugged .618 for Oakland in 1987. Braun drove in 97 runs and stole 15 bases.

He ranked in the top four among NL rookies in average, slugging percentage, extra-base hits, RBIs, runs, total bases, triples, multi-hit games, hits, batting average, stolen bases and on-base percentage.

Imagine if he had played all season.

Braun didn't make his big league debut until May 25, when he was promoted from Triple-A Nashville to spark a Brewers offense that was slumping on a West Coast road trip. Braun played in 113 games and made 112 starts at third base.

[IJ Reilly]

I believe Furcal only has one year left on his contract? Rodriguez could play third in 2008 and have the option of moving to short if Furcal isn't re-signed.

But the other rumors are that Torre's presence in L.A. isn't going to be an enticement to Rodriguez.

I think so. This could limit his appeal in a trade but could raise it for a club looking for a stop-gap.

It's hard to give the rumors much credence. All of the intangibles add up to a lot less than the dollars in the contract.

[Sobe]

Red Sox Dustin Pedroia wins AL Rookie of the Year, Brewers Ryan Braun Wins NL Rookie of the Year.

Braun tied for the league lead in errors with 26.

Tulowitzki should have won:

Tulowitzki led big league shortstops in fielding percentage, got to many more balls than anyone at his position and turned an unassisted triple play.

Tulowitzki also set an NL rookie record for home runs by a shortstop (24), and batted .291 with 99 RBIs as the Rockies surged to the NL pennant.

[zioxide]

Pedroia is the ****ing man.

I wonder if the Sox will be able to go back to back with the ROTY. Ellsbury definitely has a shot if he plays next year like he played this fall in Boston.

[Silencio]

Braun tied for the league lead in errors with 26.

Tulowitzki should have won:

But Braun's offensive numbers were just too impressive for a rookie: high BA, lots of power, >.600 SLG is hard to ignore. I think that trumps the bad defense and total lack of walks.

Tulowitzki played good defense and put up good offensive numbers for a shortstop, inflated by Planet Coors, of course...

[Sobe]

But Braun's offensive numbers were just too impressive for a rookie: high BA, lots of power, >.600 SLG is hard to ignore. I think that trumps the bad defense and total lack of walks.

Tulowitzki played good defense and put up good offensive numbers for a shortstop, inflated by Planet Coors, of course...

I'll take .291, 24 HR, 99 RBI, 104 R, along with a .987 fielding percentage @ SS over

.324, 34 HR, 97 RBI, 91 R, along with an .895 fielding percentage.

Basically Ryan Braun was a very good hitter and one of the worst (if not the worst) fielding 3B in the NL.

Tulowitzki is right up there in offense with some greats like Rollins, Hanley Ramirez, and Jose Reyes at SS offensively and far and away the best fielding SS in the NL.

He topped the NL in total chances, put outs, assists, double plays, fielding percentage, range factor, and was second in zone rating. while making the 5th fewest errors.

Braun was dead last in zone rating (The percentage of balls fielded by a player in his typical defensive "zone," as measured by STATS, Inc.) and dead last in range factor.

So not only did he make a lot of errors on the balls he got to, there were tons of balls he never even fielded that other 3B would have.

Ryan Braun had 586 (834 vs. 248) fewer total chances in the field. That is huge. The difference between Braun and Tulowitzki in total chances is greater than the total number of chances by the 3B who led the league in total chances -- Ryan Zimmerman with 511.

And in those 248 chances, Braun committed 15 more errors!

Maybe this is why the Brewers allowed 68 unearned runs, while the Rockies only allowed 52.

Considering that the Brewers missed the playoffs by a measly 2 games, I bet they'd love to have a few unearned runs back, particularly when the actual runs created (the statistical measure) are 101.1 for Tulowitzki and 97.9 for Braun.

Completely idiotic decision.

[MacNut]

NEW YORK -- Jorge Posada has a new contract in hand and is set to stay in Yankees pinstripes, according to a published report.
The New York Daily News reported Monday on its Web site that Posada will accept a four-year, $52 million contract from the club, an increased offer delivered to the catcher's camp just hours before he could have discussed financial terms with other clubs.

The deal matches the dollar amount and length of contracts signed by outfielders Johnny Damon and Hideki Matsui two years ago, and it will become official pending a physical and the completion of final contract language.

Posada, 36, held an impromptu news conference with reporters at Madison Square Garden on Sunday, saying he and the Yankees were "really close" on a new contract as he spoke during halftime of a New York Knicks-Miami Heat game.

After batting a career-high .338 with 20 home runs and 90 RBIs in 144 games for the Yankees this past season, Posada would have been a coveted figure on the free agent market.

[Sobe]

NEW YORK -- Jorge Posada has a new contract in hand and is set to stay in Yankees pinstripes, according to a published report.
The New York Daily News reported Monday on its Web site that Posada will accept a four-year, $52 million contract from the club, an increased offer delivered to the catcher's camp just hours before he could have discussed financial terms with other clubs.

The deal matches the dollar amount and length of contracts signed by outfielders Johnny Damon and Hideki Matsui two years ago, and it will become official pending a physical and the completion of final contract language.

Posada, 36, held an impromptu news conference with reporters at Madison Square Garden on Sunday, saying he and the Yankees were "really close" on a new contract as he spoke during halftime of a New York Knicks-Miami Heat game.

After batting a career-high .338 with 20 home runs and 90 RBIs in 144 games for the Yankees this past season, Posada would have been a coveted figure on the free agent market.

I love how people say that signing Arod for 10 years is a bad move, but here the yanks go and lock up a catcher til he's 40 at $13 million per year and no one bats an eyelash.

Anyone care to look up the historical trend in terms of productivity from 35+ year old catchers?

Hint: it's not good.

[MacNut]

What other quality catchers are out there. I don't see many.

[aloofman]

What other quality catchers are out there. I don't see many.

Depends on what you mean by "quality". Most teams would settle for a decent-fielding catcher who can hit .250. Catchers who can hit .300 are rare, even if they don't do it every season.

His point is that catchers tend to have a very steep drop in production in their 30s. Rodriguez is more likely to be good enough to earn a starting job eight or ten years from now than Posada is to finish four. But these are the kinds of contracts you hand out when you're desperate to retain offense.

[Naimfan]

I love how people say that signing Arod for 10 years is a bad move, but here the yanks go and lock up a catcher til he's 40 at $13 million per year and no one bats an eyelash.

Anyone care to look up the historical trend in terms of productivity from 35+ year old catchers?

Hint: it's not good.

Yep! Look at what happened to Piazza......

[aloofman]

Yep! Look at what happened to Piazza......

Or Bench, or Campanella, or just about every other catcher. Off the top of my head, the only catchers with long careers that I can think of whose hitting didn't make them liabilities in their 30s are Gary Carter and Carlton Fisk.

What still burns me about losing Piazza is that he was still hitting well until that last year of his Mets contract. If the Fox people hadn't been so insistent on making a statement, they could have signed him to a similar deal and we could have watched Piazza slug them out of the Ravine for a half dozen more years.

That actually bothers me more than trading Pedro Martinez because losing Pedro didn't seem like a mistake at the time, whereas I knew that trading Piazza was. What we got out of that trade was a few years of Sheffield making similar money and putting up similar numbers while acting like an a$$. Then Fox turned around and gave an even more ridiculous amount of money to Kevin Brown.

It still irks me to this day. :mad:

[IJ Reilly]

It still irks me to this day. :mad:

Even more than the JP deal? ;)

You forget, Brown actually had some really good seasons with the Dodgers. And, they dumped him on the Yankees at just the right time.

[MacNut]

Kevin Brown has good seasons? Could of fooled me.

[Naimfan]

Kevin Brown had good seasons? Could have fooled me.

There. Fixed it! ;)

[aloofman]

Even more than the JP deal? ;)

I'd like to point out that you brought it up, not me. :cool:

You forget, Brown actually had some really good seasons with the Dodgers. And, they dumped him on the Yankees at just the right time.

That's true. What I meant was that by hardballing Piazza on a contract extension, Fox was apparently trying to let everyone know that they wouldn't cave in to big contracts to star players. Then they turned around and did exactly that with the most exorbitant contract up to that time. It was just the start of a series of stupid moves by Fox.

Kevin Brown has good seasons? Could of fooled me.

He most definitely did. From about 1996 to 2001 he was quite dominating with the Marlins, Padres, and Dodgers, led the league in ERA a couple times. The folly of the contract the Dodgers signed him to was really the seven years. When he was healthy he pitched quite well (maybe not $15 million per year well but who can measure such things?), but when he had several trips to the DL that made the contract seem more irritating.

IJ is right, the Dodgers traded him at exactly the right time. When I heard we got Weaver in return I was thrilled because we could tell that Brown didn't have much left in the tank at all. Then Brazoban turned out to be quite useful too.

[IJ Reilly]

IJ is right, the Dodgers traded him at exactly the right time. When I heard we got Weaver in return I was thrilled because we could tell that Brown didn't have much left in the tank at all. Then Brazoban turned out to be quite useful too.

And Kevin Brown was such a head case. He was dealing with so many personal demons it's a wonder he could pitch at all.

[zioxide]

Sabathia wins AL Cy Young

[MacNut]

Sabathia wins AL Cy YoungCLEVELAND -- The Cy Young questions sprang up midseason, as C.C. Sabathia consistently put together dominant performances for an Indians team in contention for a division title.
As those questions arose from reporters after each win, Sabathia shrugged them off. It was the team's success, not the individual glory, that he sought.

But individual glory caught up with the Indians' ace left-hander on Tuesday.

In voting conducted by members of the Baseball Writers Association of America, Sabathia beat Boston's Josh Beckett for his first American League Cy Young Award. He is only the second pitcher in Indians history to win the award -- the first being Gaylord Perry, who won it in 1972.

The 27-year-old Sabathia was rewarded for a regular season that saw him go 19-7 with a 3.21 ERA in 34 starts. The win total, ERA mark and number of starts were all career bests for Sabathia, as were his strikeout total of 209 and his innings total of 241, which led the Majors.

Sabathia, who twice faced Beckett head-to-head in the AL Championship Series and lost each time, bested Beckett in the Cy Young voting in large part because of that innings mark.

Though Beckett certainly had award-worthy credentials with a 20-7 record and 3.27 ERA in 30 starts for the AL East champion Red Sox, he was 40 1/3 innings shy of Sabathia's tally.

Furthermore, Sabathia didn't have the run support that Beckett had. While the Red Sox put together an average of 6.4 runs in Beckett's starts, the Indians afforded Sabathia an average of 5.1.

Had Sabathia's run support been stronger, he no doubt would have become the first Indians pitcher since Perry to win 20 games in a single season. Alas, Sabathia had nine starts in which he received a loss or no-decision while pitching five or more innings and giving up two earned runs or less.

[Naimfan]

Sabathia wins AL Cy Young

Based purely on the regular season, seems a reasonable choice....

[zioxide]

I'm sure Beckett will take his WS ring and ALCS MVP over the Cy Young. :D

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/3413/gdjbon5.jpg

[MacNut]

Even tho the Cy Young is a more coveted award.:D

[Naimfan]

Even tho the Cy Young is a more coveted award.:D

Than a World Series ring? I'm sorry, I don't agree with that......

I bet Sabathia would trade the Cy Young for Becket's WS win.

[MacNut]

Than a World Series ring? I'm sorry, I don't agree with that......Pitchers are recognized in history more for the Cy Young then an MVP award. It is an easier feat to win a World Series ring then a Cy Young.

[zioxide]

Pitchers are recognized in history more for the Cy Young then an MVP award. It is an easier feat to win a World Series ring then a Cy Young.

In the end Beckett will be remembered as one of, if not the, best postseason pitchers of all time.


Oh, and I'd say something that you win yourself is more valuable than something that a bunch of retarded sportswriters vote on.

[furcalchick]

Oh, and I'd say something that you win yourself is more valuable than something that a bunch of retarded sportswriters vote on.

exactly. example, usc two time ap poll champions. i don't listen to the dorky ap polls or awards, it's illegitimate since it's based on who gets the most media hype. i think this started to turn on me when dontrelle won the ap rookie award when ponds won almost every other rookie award that year and dontrelle's win was mostly based on hype. this is also why i think players and managers and such should be involved in the hof voting process, because right now, it's based on who the media likes instead of their whole body of work.

btw, cc won the players award as well. so the ap is 3 for 3 this year.

[aloofman]

exactly. example, usc two time ap poll champions. i don't listen to the dorky ap polls or awards, it's illegitimate since it's based on who gets the most media hype.

Does the illegitimacy start when you don't like the team? Or just when your team comes up short? Polls are how every college football championship was decided until about ten years ago, so does that mean all of those title teams are illegitimate?

One could argue about why the AP poll is still relevant in the BCS era, but in USC's case, they were screwed out of a BCS title game appearance one year. Oregon and Auburn got gipped in other seasons. Until they implement a playoff system, the debate will go on.

this is also why i think players and managers and such should be involved in the hof voting process, because right now, it's based on who the media likes instead of their whole body of work.


The problem with that is that the players and managers would just vote for people they really like. This is what often happens in the Gold Glove choices, where a lot of players win year after year based on how good they were a few years ago. I think it would be more interesting if we could see the vote breakdown for GGs like with MVPs. Then we could have some idea about who was even competitive in their eyes.

[Sobe]

C.C. Sabathia:

34 GS, 19 W, 7 L, 3.21 ERA, 209 K, 1.14 WHIP

Josh Beckett:

30 GS, 20 W, 7 L, 3.27 ERA, 194 K, 1.14 WHIP.

I'd flip a coin personally. CC had more starts so give it to him.

If were going by best pitcher in the fewest starts, Erik Bedard would win anyway:

Erik Bedard:

28 GS, 13 W, 5 L, 221 K, 1.09 WHIP.

And that's for a team that lost 93 games.

No question he was the best pitcher in the AL this year...just didn't stay healthy long enough.

And let's not forget that Beckett and CC both benefitted greatly from not having to pitch against their own teams.

How much did Bedard's numbers benefit from not pitching against the O's? Not much.

[fotografica]

Angels and Dodgers Battling For Miguel Cabrera

Joe Capozzi of the Palm Beach Post says the Dodgers and Angels are leading the pack in the Miguel Cabrera derby. Four other clubs are said to be in the mix. The Marlins will continue to field offers and hope to trade Cabrera at the Winter Meetings in a few weeks.

Both the Dodgers and Angels are also in the mix for Alex Rodriguez. Scott Boras must love Cabrera messing up his market. A friend of Tommy Lasorda's told me today that Lasorda puts the Dodgers' chances of signing A-Rod around 25%.

From the Angels, the Marlins want Howie Kendrick, Nick Adenhart, another pitcher, and an outfielder. Now that's a tall order! Ervin Santana or Joe Saunders could be in the mix. Maybe the Marlins like Terry Evans, Nathan Haynes, or Reggie Willits as well.

The Dodgers are being asked to pony up four of Chad Billingsley, Clayton Kershaw, Andy LaRoche, James Loney, and Matt Kemp. Capozzi suggests the Dodgers would probably only include one of the pitchers. Even so, a Kershaw/LaRoche/Loney/Kemp package is insane for one player. That has to be well over $100MM of value - a bit less than 20 team-controlled seasons. Three of the five would still make for a sweet bounty. The team acquiring Cabrera would probably be compelled to lock him in past 2009.

An educated guess at the other four teams in the mix for Cabrera: White Sox, Red Sox, Yankees, and Giants. I'll guess that the Indians have bowed out.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/marlins/content/sports/epaper/2007/11/13/1113marlins.html?cxtype=rss&cxsvc=7&cxcat=46


Krasovic tantalizes us by not elaborating on this tidbit: Responding to Colletti's preference for veterans, the Padres are contemplating three-team trade scenarios that would bring them young Dodgers outfielder Matt Kemp. In my opinion, any kind of deal that nets the Padres Kemp would have to involve Headley.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/padres/20071114-9999-1s14padres.html

[furcalchick]

The Boston Red Sox will open their World Series title defense in Tokyo. Following months of negotiations, the Red Sox agreed to a two-game series against the Oakland Athletics in Japan on March 25-26, and the commissioner's office announced the trip early Wednesday. With Daisuke Matsuzaka and Hideki Okajima, the Red Sox figure to be an attractive draw for the games at the Tokyo Dome.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-redsox-athleticsjapan&prov=ap&type=lgns

[IJ Reilly]

The Dodgers are being asked to pony up four of Chad Billingsley, Clayton Kershaw, Andy LaRoche, James Loney, and Matt Kemp. Capozzi suggests the Dodgers would probably only include one of the pitchers. Even so, a Kershaw/LaRoche/Loney/Kemp package is insane for one player. That has to be well over $100MM of value - a bit less than 20 team-controlled seasons. Three of the five would still make for a sweet bounty. The team acquiring Cabrera would probably be compelled to lock him in past 2009.


An obviously ridiculous exchange. Any one of these players could be as valuable as Cabrera in a couple of years. Some of them arguably are already. If this is true, the Marlin's front office is certifiable.

[MacNut]

The saga continues...
The New York Yankees have been discussing a deal with their former All-Star third baseman Alex Rodriguez -- but the team says a deal can only move forward if his agent, Scott Boras, is not part of the talks, the New York Daily News reported Wednesday.

According to the report, a high-ranking Yankees source said the team is willing to bring back A-Rod on a below-market contract that would make up for the $21 million subsidy from the Texas Rangers that the Yankees lost when A-Rod opted out of the final three years of his contract -- despite team comments indicating he had burned his bridges by opting out.
But any such deal can't take place with Boras at the table, a Yankee source said, according to the report.

"We will not negotiate with Scott Boras," the source told the Daily News. "He cannot be in the room."

Boras, regarded in some circles as the most powerful man in baseball, has been A-Rod's agent since he was a teenager.

The Daily News also reported that Rodriguez recently approached the Yankees about a return through a third party, and that the team wanted person-to-person talks between A-Rod and Hal and Hank Steinbrenner.

The New York Post said Hal Steinbrenner was non-committal when asked Tuesday if A-Rod's return was possible.

"Whether something did happen or not, I am not going to comment on that situation," he said, according to the Post.

[MacNut]

Here are my thoughts on A-Rod, as a Yankee fan I am split. Is he a great player, yes. Would he help anyones team, yes. But he costs to much and he is unpredictable. But I also don't want to have to give up young talent to get a 3rd baseman, Lowell is to old to get 4 years. Does A-Rod want to be a Yankee or does he know he can't get the huge contract anywhere.

[Naimfan]

Regarding Rodriguez--whatever. I still believe the Yankees are better off without him--the lack of drama cannot be underrated, and the Yankees are perfectly capable of not winning the World Series with or without him. Better to take the money and build the farm system, to increase their depth, and, heaven forbid, perhaps even bank some in reserves.

There is no denying his talent, but he has been ineffective when it mattered most. Jeter at least has four WS rings, and was an integral part in winning all of them. I just think the last thing the Yankees need is a moody prima donna, regardless of talent.

[MacNut]

Official statement from Alex Rodriguez

11/14/2007 3:27 PM ET
After spending time with Cynthia and my family over these last few weeks, it became clear to me that I needed to make an attempt to engage the Yankees regarding my future with the organization.

Prior to entering into serious negotiations with other clubs, I wanted the opportunity to share my thoughts directly with Yankees' ownership. We know there are other opportunities for us, but Cynthia and I have a foundation with the club that has brought us comfort, stability and happiness.

As a result, I reached out to the Yankees through mutual friends and conveyed that message. I also understand that I had to respond to certain Yankees concerns, and I was receptive and understanding of that situation.

Cynthia and I have since spoken directly with the Steinbrenner family. During these healthy discussions, both sides were able to share honest feelings and hopes with one another, and we expect to continue this dialogue with the Yankees over the next few days.In addition, Yankees Broadcaster John Sterling is reporting that it is a done deal that A-Rod will return to the Yankees.

[swiftaw]

Official statement from Alex Rodriguez

11/14/2007 3:27 PM ET
In addition, Yankees Broadcaster John Sterling is reporting that it is a done deal that A-Rod will return to the Yankees.

ESPN is reporting that Boras has not been involved in these discussions. I bet his head is exploding right about now.

[MacNut]

ESPN is reporting that Boras has not been involved in these discussions. I bet his head is exploding right about now.If this is true, the reports are that A-Rod will take a $60 million hit.

[Naimfan]

ESPN is reporting that Boras has not been involved in these discussions. I bet his head is exploding right about now.

What are the rules regarding a team talking directly to a represented player?

[MacNut]

What are the rules regarding a team talking directly to a represented player?I don't think there is any rule. A Player can talk to what ever team he wants. All the agent does is get the best deal for a player.

[swiftaw]

What are the rules regarding a team talking directly to a represented player?

I would say that it is entirely up to the player. If a player wants to talk to a team without his agent, then I'm sure he can. They could agree terms, and then he can tell his agent to sort it out at those agreed terms. Or, the player can always tell the team to deal with his agent and not him.

From what I am reading, it sounds like A-Rod approached the Yankees.

[swiftaw]

A Player can talk to what ever team he wants.

Should probably add "free-agent" in front of the word player.

[MacNut]

Should probably add "free-agent" in front of the word player.Good point.

[aloofman]

Does A-Rod want to be a Yankee or does he know he can't get the huge contract anywhere.

If only it were that simple. If it were just a question of wanting to be a Yankee, then it would be an easy yes, if only for contract and contender status.

But it's not just about that. He'd be returning to the New York media hovering over his every move, bashing every double play he grounds into, following his wife around, hearing how Jeter matters more to the team, getting heckled by the same fans who were cheering when he put the team on his back last spring, and dealing with a Steinbrenner family that's been acting like they don't need him for the last couple years. That's a lot of crap to put up with. I'm not saying that everyone should behave, just that it is what it is, and all of that goes with being Rodriguez the Yankee. Rodriguez has to decide how much money would pay for that much drama. Torre got tired of it and didn't feel like it was worth it, so we'll see.

I'm not in the least bit surprised that the Yankees are talking to him though. They need his hitting, they can pay him more than other teams can, and he already lives in New York. As for Boras not being there, I think it's a non-issue. He can send one of his deputies to make sure Rodriguez doesn't agree to something crazy.

[Naimfan]

As for Boras not being there, I think it's a non-issue. He can send one of his deputies to make sure Rodriguez doesn't agree to something crazy.

I agree with everything you wrote except the above--I cannot see Boras' ego allowing a deputy to handle anything public about Rodriguez.

[aloofman]

I agree with everything you wrote except the above--I cannot see Boras' ego allowing a deputy to handle anything public about Rodriguez.

Has anything they discussed without Boras there become public? I haven't heard any real details about any of it. If it's a matter of Boras' ego getting in the way of a bigger contract, Boras might be willing to take a back seat. None of us really knows how this guy works face-to-face anyway. We only know what we hear the news media say about him.

[zioxide]

If A-Rod does end up going back to the Yanks without Boras, I'll applaud him for these reasons:

1. I hate Scott Boras. He's an ******* and always thinks his players deserve ridiculously overpriced contracts. It would be even better if A-Rod just came out and said he fired Boras.
2. It shows A-Rod isn't a completely greedy whore.
3. It guarantees the Yankees won't win in October for the next 10 years. :D

[Jschultz]

If A-Rod does end up going back to the Yanks without Boras, I'll applaud him for these reasons:

1. I hate Scott Boras. He's an ******* and always thinks his players deserve ridiculously overpriced contracts. It would be even better if A-Rod just came out and said he fired Boras.
2. It shows A-Rod isn't a completely greedy whore.
3. It guarantees the Yankees won't win in October for the next 10 years. :D

I have no problems with players asking what they're worth, but look at what Boras has done. I'm a White Sox fan, and I'm upset because our 3rd baseman (Joe Crede) is a Boras client. I love Crede as a player, he came up through our system and all. But, Boras told him to not negotiate and try the market. We tried to offer him a good deal, but we know he'll end up walking.

I'm a fan of economics, but greed is a powerful thing.

[fotografica]

The Yankees will be in violation of baseball's collective-bargaining agreement if they exclude agent Scott Boras from their negotiations with his client, Alex Rodriguez.

"That clearly is a violation of the Basic Agreement," Michael Weiner, the general counsel of the players' union, told FOXSports.com on Wednesday.

"Once a player designates an agent, a club cannot refuse to meet with that agent."

Rodriguez, a free agent, is again discussing a contract with the Yankees, according to the New York Daily News. The team wants to bypass Boras in the negotiations, the Daily News says.

"We will not negotiate with Scott Boras," a Yankees source told the paper. "He cannot be in the room."

However, Yankees officials likely know that they cannot exclude Boras, sources say.

The Yankees can avoid Boras only if Rodriguez fires the agent and chooses either to represent himself or pick another representative.

Rodriguez gives no indication that he is ready to fire his longtime agent.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7446572?CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=49

Judging from that,I'd say Boras is in there unless he's fired by A Rod...

[MacNut]

Boras may be around but I don't think the Yankees are going to let him boss them around. I think A-Rod realizes that he needs to speak for himself about what he wants and tell Boras to shut it.

[Naimfan]

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7446572?CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=49

Judging from that,I'd say Boras is in there unless he's fired by A Rod...

That's what I thought--it is very similar to a lawyer speaking with a represented opposing party. Perhaps Rodriguez will grow a pair and fire Boras?

[fotografica]

I'd say it has more to do with A Rod doing some image damage control:

A second Yankees source said that the team believes A-Rod is trying to restore his image, which has taken a beating since Boras announced the opt-out during Game 4 of the World Series.
"Alex likes to be the center of the universe," the source said. "He wants to be a part of the Stadium going down and the opening of the new one. It's not about money. It's about his face being everywhere. This is the only stage that can guarantee that."
"Most of this is about Alex trying to salvage his image," said another source close to the negotiations. "He's upset over the way this whole thing has played out and the way he's being portrayed now, because of Boras."

[Sobe]

it's called "good cop, bad cop" also known as "bad agent, good ballplayer" oldest ploy in the agent handbook.

If the money is there, ARod will sign..yankees, dodgers, angels...wherever.

[MacNut]

Boras will be in the room but A-Rod is the one in charge. The Yankees offer is 10 years $270-75 million.

[Koodauw]

I hope the Yankees just let him walk. I wouldn't offer him $1 per year.

[Sobe]

I hope the Yankees just let him walk. I wouldn't offer him $1 per year.

Probably why you aren't a GM. =D

[MacNut]

This is really gonna hurt Lowell who was looking for a 4th year.

[zioxide]

This is really gonna hurt Lowell who was looking for a 4th year.

It increases the chances of him coming back to the Sox :D

[MacNut]

It increases the chances of him coming back to the Sox :DBut will he get a 4th year. I heard Anaheim might be willing.

[Sobe]

Great read on Boras:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/10/29/071029fa_fact_mcgrath?currentPage=1

[Koodauw]

Probably why you aren't a GM. =D

There is something to be said about addition by subtraction.

[zioxide]

But will he get a 4th year. I heard Anaheim might be willing.

you need to learn to use question marks :P

[Sobe]

There is something to be said about addition by subtraction.

No, I get your point. If it were, say, Dennis Rodman or even Sheffield I might agree with you.

We're talking about one of the best baseball players of all time here, not some guy who had a good year and whines a lot.

[aloofman]

That's what I thought--it is very similar to a lawyer speaking with a represented opposing party. Perhaps Rodriguez will grow a pair and fire Boras?

I'm not sure I understand the Boras hate. Is it because he's too good at his job? Because then what you're saying is you hate agents. Is it because he represents Rodriguez? Because that's more like you hate Alex or ambitious athletes like him. Players hire Boras because he's really good at being an agent. I can understand the team front offices not liking him, but I'm not sure why fans would care either way.

[Naimfan]

I'm not sure I understand the Boras hate.

I must have missed where I said I hate Boras. :rolleyes:
;)

[Jschultz]

I'm not sure I understand the Boras hate. Is it because he's too good at his job? Because then what you're saying is you hate agents. Is it because he represents Rodriguez? Because that's more like you hate Alex or ambitious athletes like him. Players hire Boras because he's really good at being an agent. I can understand the team front offices not liking him, but I'm not sure why fans would care either way.

He is a VERY good agent. Obviously, his sole purpose is to get as much money as possible for his clients, to which he excels. But, he seems to be so good at it, he gets players TOO much money. Barry Zito? A-Rod? However, he can't be 100% blamed, the front offices ARE shelling out the money.

To me, it's like having Apple try to sell me a $2000 macbook, when the average macbook costs $1100. But I'm dumb enough to pay $2000 anyways. Nevermind the fact that this macbook may be MVP :p

[MacNut]

Some blame has to go to the union too. They push for the highest money possible.

[Jschultz]

Some blame has to go to the union too. They push for the highest money possible.

I agree. You gotta advocate for each other, right? :rolleyes:

[IJ Reilly]

What a soap opera. It's another one of those New York things.

[swiftaw]

Apparently the Yankees are trying to sign Lowell to be their first baseman.
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2007/11/lowell_to_first.html

[MacNut]

Apparently the Yankees are trying to sign Lowell to be their first baseman.
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2007/11/lowell_to_first.htmlAnd the plot thickens.

[Sobe]

I'm not sure I understand the Boras hate. Is it because he's too good at his job? Because then what you're saying is you hate agents. Is it because he represents Rodriguez? Because that's more like you hate Alex or ambitious athletes like him. Players hire Boras because he's really good at being an agent. I can understand the team front offices not liking him, but I'm not sure why fans would care either way.

Funny you should say that.

If you read the New Yorker article I linked (and you should). here is a response in the form of a letter written by Donald Wollett, who was mentioned in the article:




DON'T HATE THE AGENT

Ben McGrath, in his piece on Scott Boras, describes me as an adviser who told Boras, "If you're good at what you do in the practice of law, ninety per cent of what is said about you will be negative" ("The Extortionist," October 29th). A lawyer, in other words, is often reviled just for doing a good job, and that seems to be the case with Boras.

Some fans (I am one) believe in, as Susan Sarandon put it in the movie "Bull Durham," the "church of baseball." To us romantics, the current compensation system -- in which the star player, with his star agent, sparks a bidding war and ends up with an exorbitant salary, while the journeyman player, without whom the game cannot be played, gets along on much less -- is worrisome.

However, the system is worrisome not because of agents like Scott Boras but because the rules for which the collective-bargaining process is responsible permit gross disparities in income levels.

Boras is not an extortionist. He's a damned good lawyer who believes in doing a damned good job for his client -- nothing more, nothing less -- and he lives by the rules handed down by the collective-bargaining process, by the ownersand the union.

Donald Wollett
Professor Emeritus of Law
University of the Pacific
McGeorge School of Law
Clinton, Wash.

[fotografica]

Graziano admits signing Lowell to switch positions would be tough, as teams like the Angels and Dodgers will be after him. According to a Boston television station, Lowell has already received offers from the Braves, Angels, Cardinals, and Yankees. Each is supposedly a four-year offer between $55-60MM. Color me skeptical of that particular rumor, but you never know.

Anyway, the Yankees dropping $50MM+ on Lowell just to thwart the Red Sox seems kind of irresponsible to me. Here's what they'd have:

C - Jorge Posada - $13.1MM
1B - Mike Lowell - $14MM
2B - Robinson Cano - $0.5MM
SS - Derek Jeter - $20MM
3B - Alex Rodriguez - $28MM
LF - Hideki Matsui - $13MM/Johnny Damon - $13MM
CF - Melky Cabrera - $0.5MM
RF - Bobby Abreu - $16MM
DH - Jason Giambi - $21MM

That's a $139MM starting lineup, and one of those guys would be on the bench. I imagine a Lowell signing would compel Brian Cashman to shop someone.

http://www3.whdh.com/news/articles/sports/BO66884/

Angels and Dodgers Battling For Miguel Cabrera

UPDATE, 11-15-07: MLB.com's Joe Frisaro says the Angels are in the lead now, and trade talk for Cabrera is picking up with A-Rod on the verge of signing. Frisaro says a deal could be done by Thanksgiving, in contrast to Joe Capozzi's suggestion that this would happen at the Winter Meetings. The L.A. Times explained several Dodgers/Angels scenarios on Wednesday; that's also worth a read.


http://www.latimes.com/sports/printedition/la-sp-cabrera14nov14,1,6152700.story?coll=la-headlines-pe-sports&ctrack=2&cset=true

[Sobe]

Excellent. Sign Lowell.

Does Cashman even read stats?

Lowell hit .324 @ Fenway and .276 everywhere else.

.993 OPS vs. .767 OPS.

Let's put it this way...

Playing in Fenway Park, Mike Lowell is Ryan Howard or Albert Pujols (a little less power...14 HR in 292 AB)

Everywhere else, he's Shane Victorino (without the speed) or Austin Kearns.

[fotografica]

Orioles To Attempt To Extend Bedard

It looks like Erik Bedard is Andy MacPhail's top priority right now. He's already gauged the trade interest for his ace, and is now exploring the idea of a contract extension.

Jeff Zrebiec says the Mets, Yankees, Angels, and Dodgers expressed interest in the southpaw starter. Interesting to see the Halos in the mix. The Dodgers are pushing the hardest for him. Two years of Bedard is expected to cost a team three MLB-ready players. The names mentioned for the Dodgers are Jonathan Broxton, Matt Kemp, and Clayton Kershaw. While Kershaw's not MLB-ready, I doubt the Orioles would mind. Zrebiec says the problem with the Dodgers is that Kemp and Kershaw would be part of a Miguel Cabrera package.

What would a contract extension cost? I'm thinking it would require something like four years, $65MM to cover the two team-controlled years and two years of free agency.

Zrebiec also mentions that the Mets inquired on Ramon Hernandez, but found the price of a high-end prospect prohibitive.


http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/baseball/bal-sp.bedard15nov15,0,4916561.story?track=rss

[Sobe]

Bedard should be locked up long term.

Pitching is precious and Bedard just gets better every year.

[IJ Reilly]

http://www.latimes.com/sports/printedition/la-sp-cabrera14nov14,1,6152700.story

I'd be very surprised if the Dodgers gave up Billingsley in a deal for Cabrera, or any of the other young regulars. Every starter who's dealt has to be replaced.

[Naimfan]

This year really seems to underline the trend that teams are not going to trade away good prospects for (expensive) established players, however good they may be. Teams can either spend lots of money on a very thin free agent crop or wait to draft and develop their own players. And that's probably the best way forward these days.

[Sayhey]

This year really seems to underline the trend that teams are not going to trade away good prospects for (expensive) established players, however good they may be. Teams can either spend lots of money on a very thin free agent crop or wait to draft and develop their own players. And that's probably the best way forward these days.

There is no such thing as a sure thing when dealing with "prospects."

Your method has the problem of waiting for prospects who may well, and often don't, develop into anything. If you want to win now, the percentages say to pay for the players who can get you there now, not the ones who may get you there three or four years from now. Your proposal is definitely cheaper, but not necessarily the "best way forward."

[IJ Reilly]

There is no such thing as a sure thing when dealing with "prospects."

Your method has the problem of waiting for prospects who may well, and often don't, develop into anything. If you want to win now, the percentages say to pay for the players who can get you there now, not the ones who may get you there three or four years from now. Your proposal is definitely cheaper, but not necessarily the "best way forward."

It entirely depends on how you define "prospects." It's much easier to build a competitive team after parting with a minor league player with potential, than it is to trade young players who's potential may be unrealized, but who have at least demonstrated the ability to play in the major leagues. The former can be restocked in the farm system over time; the latter must be replaced immediately.

[MacNut]

Lets say the Yankees trade hughes for Santana. Is it wise to take on his contract and hope he can stay healthy for many years or do you gamble on Hughes being an ace and not having to pay him. It is a gamble to trade away prospects that might be great.

[Naimfan]

There is no such thing as a sure thing when dealing with "prospects."

Your method has the problem of waiting for prospects who may well, and often don't, develop into anything. If you want to win now, the percentages say to pay for the players who can get you there now, not the ones who may get you there three or four years from now. Your proposal is definitely cheaper, but not necessarily the "best way forward."

First, that's hardly my "method."

Second, I must have missed saying that prospects were a sure thing.

Third, I was simply observing that given today's thin crop of free agent talent, developing your own talent is probably the best way forward, as opposed to overpaying for free agents.

[MacNut]

SAN FRANCISCO -- Baseball superstar Barry Bonds was charged Thursday with perjury and obstruction of justice for allegedly lying when he said he did not use performance-enhancing drugs.

The indictment, unsealed Thursday by federal prosecutors in San Francisco, is the culmination of a four-year federal probe into whether he lied under oath to a grand jury investigating steroid use by elite athletes.

The indictment comes three months after the 43-year-old Bonds, one of the biggest names in professional sports, passed Hank Aaron to become baseball's career home run leader, his sport's most hallowed record. Bonds, who parted ways with the San Francisco Giants at the end of last season and has yet to sign with another team, also holds the game's single-season home run record of 73.

While Bonds was chasing Aaron amid the adulation of San Franciscans and the scorn of baseball fans almost everywhere else, due to his notoriously prickly personality and nagging steroid allegations, a grand jury quietly worked behind closed doors to put the finishing touches on the long-rumored indictment.

"I'm surprised," said John Burris, one of Bonds' attorneys, "but there's been an effort to get Barry for a long time. "I'm curious what evidence they have now they didn't have before."

The indictment charges Bonds with lying when he said that he didn't knowingly take steroids given to him by his personal trainer Greg Anderson. He also denied taking steroids at anytime in 2001 when he was pursuing the single season home-run record.

"During the criminal investigation, evidence was obtained including positive tests for the presence of anabolic steroids and other performance enhancing substances for Bonds and other athletes," the indictment reads.

He is also charged with lying that Anderson never injected him with steroids.

"Greg wouldn't do that," Bonds testified in December 2003 when asked if Anderson ever gave him any drugs that needed to be injected. "He knows I'm against that stuff."

[gauchogolfer]

Barry Bonds was just indicted on perjury and obstruction of justice charges...

Really!?!?!

*heads over to espn.com*

[zioxide]

It's breaking news on ESPN Sportscenter right now.

edit:

So this topic doesn't get all cluttered with talk of Bonds, I made a new topic in Current Events:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=387875

[zioxide]

A-Rod and the Yankees have agreed on a deal according to ESPN SportsCenter.

10 years, $275 million + incentives for the all time home run record, etc.

[MacNut]

A-Rod and the Yankees have agreed on a deal according to ESPN SportsCenter.

10 years, $275 million + incentives for the all time home run record, etc.Can you confirm this. I can't find any links.

[zioxide]

Can you confirm this. I can't find any links.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3112799

[Sobe]

A-Rod and the Yankees have agreed on a deal according to ESPN SportsCenter.

10 years, $275 million + incentives for the all time home run record, etc.

Everything I hear and read is about how badly Boras botched this.

Did anyone ever consider that this was the type of deal they were looking for all along?

[MacNut]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3112799That must have been posted after I did a search.

[furcalchick]

looks like peavy is going to be a no-name again:(

he won the cy vote outright. thank you bonds and aroid for ruining his special day.:mad:

for those that don't know, i've been a big peavy fan since pretty much day one. this guy is the real deal...expect during big games where he chokes alot. he's sorta like peyton manning.

[MacNut]

Everything I hear and read is about how badly Boras botched this.

Did anyone ever consider that this was the type of deal they were looking for all along?The Yankees offered that deal first, Boras said no.

[Sobe]

The Yankees offered that deal first, Boras said no.

He explored the market and then took the best deal available...I don't see the problem here.

[MacNut]

He explored the market and then took the best deal available...I don't see the problem here.The original deal the Yankees offered had 21 million of the Rangers money. This deal is cheaper then the one originally offered.

[zioxide]

expect during big games where he chokes alot. he's sorta like peyton manning.

hahaha i loled

[Sobe]

The original deal the Yankees offered had 21 million of the Rangers money. This deal is cheaper then the one originally offered.

I thought he was getting $252 over 10 for the old deal.

Now he seems to be getting $275 over 10.

So he extends the life of the contract and makes $2.3 million more per year plus huge incentives.

I wish I could make that kind of mistake.

[zioxide]

I thought he was getting $252 over 10 for the old deal.

Now he seems to be getting $275 over 10.

So he extends the life of the contract and makes $2.3 million more per year plus huge incentives.

I wish I could make that kind of mistake.

The Yankees were going to offer him a 10 year, 300 million extension/restructuring if he didn't opt out. But since he opted out, they lose the 21 million texas was still paying for. So they essentially took that off of his new deal.

[MacNut]

I thought he was getting $252 over 10 for the old deal.

Now he seems to be getting $275 over 10.

So he extends the life of the contract and makes $2.3 million more per year plus huge incentives.

I wish I could make that kind of mistake.Before he opted out the Yankees were going to offer him an extension. The contract would go through 2010 when the original deal ran out. It would include Texas' share of 21 million. Then the Yankees were going to kick in another 7 years on top of that.Yankees executives had tried to arrange a face-to-face meeting with Rodriguez last month, in which they intended to offer Rodriguez, initially, a five-year extension worth about $140 million to $150 million -- on top of the three years and $81 million he still was owed under his previous contract. It was the team's intention to increase its offer, perhaps to nine or 10 years, so that Rodriguez, in the end, would make something in the area of nine years and $260 million, or 10 years and $289 million.

But in response, Boras informed the Yankees that to arrange a meeting they would have to be prepared to offer a deal of at least $350 million. And, about 72 hours later, on Oct. 28, during Game 4 of the World Series, Boras informed the Yankees of Rodriguez's decision to opt out of the $252 million deal he signed with Texas seven years ago.

[Sobe]

Before he opted out the Yankees were going to offer him an extension. The contract would go through 2010 when the original deal ran out. It would include Texas' share of 21 million. Then the Yankees were going to kick in another 7 years on top of that.

Sounds like a lot of "perhaps"es and intends and maybes.

What I see is that in a best case scenario that we don't even know would have happened, Arod got $275 when he could have possibly raked in $289.

And this is after refusing to sit down with them and exploring the market.

Still sounds pretty good to me.

[MacNut]

Sounds like a lot of "perhaps"es and intends and maybes.

What I see is that in a best case scenario that we don't even know would have happened, Arod got $275 when he could have possibly raked in $289.

And this is after refusing to sit down with them and exploring the market.

Still sounds pretty good to me.His image took a hit tho, that is what he screwed up on. If he agreed to meet with the Yankees up front this would be a non issue.

[Teh Don Ditty]

I'm not sure how I'm feeling about A-Rod being back....

He is going to be friggin destroyed by the fans and media all next season. Even more so if he doesn't manage to break out of his postseason slump.

[MacNut]

I'm not sure how I'm feeling about A-Rod being back....

He is going to be friggin destroyed by the fans and media all next season. Even more so if he doesn't manage to break out of his postseason slump.If A-Rod throws Boras under the bus he will be fine. He needs to apologize for being a douche about the World Series. The fact that A-Rod went to the Yankees will mean a lot.

[Martin C]

Arod got $275 when he could have possibly raked in $289.

Here's a quote from this (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3112799) ESPN article:
"There are a few cynics who say, 'Well, he really couldn't get this there,' " Steinbrenner said. "Trust me, he would have gotten probably more. He is making a sacrifice to be a Yankee, there's no question. ... He showed what was really in his heart and what he really wanted."

[Sobe]

Here's a quote from this (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3112799) ESPN article:

There's a certain level of disconnect, not unlike buying a car when you negotiate down from a price rather than negotiating up from what the dealer pays for it.

$300 million, $350 million, $275 million -- who knows.

What we do know is that he signed the most lucrative contract in baseball history, breaking his own previous record.

What he might have received is perhaps interesting to discuss but without a report of an actual offer he turned down, it's just so much speculation.

Bottom line is that before this deal is done, it's likely that it'll be worth very close to $300 million.

I didn't see anyone offer that.

If you did, please let me know where I can read about it.

[IJ Reilly]

I didn't see anyone offer that.

You didn't see anyone offer anything, which doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[Naimfan]

Oh well. I still think the Yankees are better off without him in the long run. I forget who said it (zioxide?) but I agree that with Rodriguez signed the Yankees aren't going to win the WS for as long as he's there. Hopefully it's the last "hit" of the crack that has been the free agent market for the Yankees for so long.

[rdowns]

Am I the only one who feels this whole saga was scripted?

[zioxide]

The Yankees are MLB's retirement home.

[Sobe]

You didn't see anyone offer anything, which doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Perhaps not, but I sort of prefer to deal with facts, or at least something close to it.

[aloofman]

I thought he was getting $252 over 10 for the old deal.

Now he seems to be getting $275 over 10.

So he extends the life of the contract and makes $2.3 million more per year plus huge incentives.

I wish I could make that kind of mistake.

I keep hearing people say that opting out was a mistake by Rodriguez. How so? He increased his leverage by becoming a free agent right after arguably the best season of his career and maybe the best a player has had in many years. If he plays the last three years of his old contract, he risks losing future contracts due to injury. He'll maintain his status as baseball's highest-paid player for at least several more years and be making huge money until he's in his early 40s, well after most players stop being productive. The Yankees will recoup even more of it if he challenges the all-time home run record, something that has never happened in a media market as huge as New York. I suppose it's possible that a Yankees contract extension could have yielded more money, but that's a big hypothetical.

If you think about it, since baseball contracts are guaranteed, what Rodriguez has basically done is increase his future earnings by about $200 million. It's a no-brainer.


Oh well. I still think the Yankees are better off without him in the long run. I forget who said it (zioxide?) but I agree that with Rodriguez signed the Yankees aren't going to win the WS for as long as he's there. Hopefully it's the last "hit" of the crack that has been the free agent market for the Yankees for so long.

Know who also didn't hit well in the postseason? Ted Williams and Willie Mays. Alex Rodriguez is basically the closest modern equivalent of a can't-miss HOFer. To claim that having him on your team will prevent a World Series title is bizarre to say the least.

[IJ Reilly]

Perhaps not, but I sort of prefer to deal with facts, or at least something close to it.

Which means to me that you don't know if he got any other offers.

[MacNut]

A-Rod will have great post seasons in the future, he is too good not too. The Yankees post season problems are not just A-Rod but the whole team in general. Without pitching it's not going to matter what A-Rod does. In the long run both needed each other. The Yankees needed a big right handed bat, and A-Rod needed the Yankees resources.

[Sobe]

Which means to me that you don't know if he got any other offers.

Sure and the moon might be made of cheese and you might have offed JFK.

If you want to deal in naked speculation, have at it.

I prefer the facts, or at least confirmed innuendo.

Like this (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/16/sports/baseball/16rodriguez.html?em&ex=1195362000&en=26248d9099e9ba25&ei=5087%0A) NYT story which might indicate that A-Rod's strategy was a little more planned than one might think.

Two days of talks at a local hotel, at which Boras was not present but was occasionally consulted by the Rodriguez camp by telephone, culminated in Rodriguez’s signing a contract mere hours before the deadline. The deal was worth about $1.3 million — not far from what the Mariners had been offering all along. Boras had advised not to accept such a deal.

[fotografica]

A-Rod will have great post seasons in the future, he is too good not too. The Yankees post season problems are not just A-Rod but the whole team in general. Without pitching it's not going to matter what A-Rod does. In the long run both needed each other. The Yankees needed a big right handed bat, and A-Rod needed the Yankees resources.

Right now the Yankees need a starting rotation,with a number one ace,more than anything...

-------
Yankees Pull Back Lowell Offer?

According to Michael Silverman of the Boston Herald, the Yankees have pulled their offer to Mike Lowell off the table since they're close to signing Alex Rodriguez. The last indication was that Lowell had a four-year offer from the Yanks in the neighborhood of $50-55MM. Reportedly that offer was made with the idea of Lowell moving to first base. If that was true, why would an A-Rod signing change things? The offer was made with an A-Rod signing in mind.

None of the other suitors for Lowell are admitting anything right now. The Phillies seem a logical fit but Pat Gillick is denying it. The Brewers may also enter the market for a third baseman.




http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/baseball/red_sox/view.bg?articleid=1045308#articleFull

[zioxide]

Right now the Yankees need a starting rotation,with a number one ace,more than anything...

Hughes and Joba/Kennedy for Santana.

[Teh Don Ditty]

Hughes and Joba/Kennedy for Santana.

That's absurd. Totally not worth it.

[MacNut]

Hughes and Joba/Kennedy for Santana.

That's absurd. Totally not worth it.Thats not gonna happen either. Maybe 1 but not all 3.

Plus I don't think the Twins will trade him until summer. They will need someone to attract people to their new park. I heard on the radio that they are not happy in Minnesota about trading Santana. They are going to drop Hunter to try to sign Santana. What good will it do them to loose their star players and a new park opening soon.

[MacNut]

NEW YORK -- Warren Buffett advised Alex Rodriguez to approach the New York Yankees and go around agent Scott Boras, The Wall Street Journal reported Saturday.

The newspaper cited a person familiar with the matter, whom it did not identify.

"A-Rod really loves being a Yankee," Buffett was quoted as saying. He wouldn't comment on the substance of any discussions with the player.

The two became friends several years ago.

Rodriguez, on Boras' advise, opted out of the final three seasons of his record $252 million, 10-year contract on Oct. 28. The Yankees had said many times that if he opted out, they wouldn't negotiate because they would lose $21.3 million from Texas for the final three seasons that was agreed to at the time of the 2004 trade, money to offset the $72 million New York owed from 2008-10.

Upset with developments after he opted out, Rodriguez contacted Buffett, and the investor told him to approach the Yankees without his agent, the Journal said.

After speaking with the investor, Rodriguez contacted a managing director at Goldman Sachs that he knew, John Mallory, who then got in touch with Gerald Cardinale, a Goldman Sachs managing director who has worked with the Yankees and their YES Network.

With the assistance of the two Goldman executives, Rodriguez and the Yankees negotiated a $275 million, 10-year contract that is in the process of being finalized.Is Boras loosing his hold on his clients.Kenny Rogers is representing himself as a free agent, the Detroit Tigers confirmed Saturday.

The move seems to be a sign that the left-handed pitcher is closer to returning to Detroit and not letting agent Scott Boras shop his services to the highest bidder.

"I still hope to be in a Tiger uniform in 2008," Rogers wrote in an e-mail to The Associated Press earlier this week before reports surfaced that he fired agent Boras.

The Tigers have been busy since the season ended, exercising the option on Ivan Rodriguez's contract to keep him behind the plate, trading for shortstop Edgar Renteria and outfielder Jacque Jones and re-signing closer Todd Jones.

Detroit wanted to include bringing back Rogers in the flurry of deals, but Boras informed the ballclub that he and Rogers were going to explore other options.

That conflicted statements Rogers made throughout the season about wanting to pitch for the Tigers, if the 43-year-old starter chose not to retire.

[zioxide]

That's absurd. Totally not worth it.

you're kidding, right?

2 pitching prospects who may/may not develop in to great pitchers for a 28-year old 2 time Cy Young winner with a career 3.22 ERA and 1.09 WHIP? That's a no brainer.

[MacNut]

you're kidding, right?

2 pitching prospects who may/may not develop in to great pitchers for a 28-year old 2 time Cy Young winner with a career 3.22 ERA and 1.09 WHIP? That's a no brainer.The Yankees may give Hughes and Cabrera but they are not giving up Chamberlin.

[IJ Reilly]

Sure and the moon might be made of cheese and you might have offed JFK.

If you want to deal in naked speculation, have at it.

I prefer the facts, or at least confirmed innuendo

Likewise, hence my response to your suggestion that he hadn't received any other offers.

[zioxide]

So Pay-Rod won the MVP.. big surprise.:rolleyes:

1. Rodriguez, NYY: 382
2. Ordonez, DET: 258
3. Guerrero, LAA: 203
4. Ortiz, BOS: 177
5. Lowell, BOS: 126

[fotografica]

Lowell Signs With Red Sox

UPDATE: ESPN reports that the deal is for $37.5MM, so $12.5MM per year. Lowell took more than $10MM less to stay with Boston.

UPDATE: Rob Bradford says the Red Sox and Lowell have agreed to the parameters of a three-year deal worth between $12-13MM annually. The Sox had set a deadline today for Lowell to decide on their offer, and he took them up on it.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3118926

[zioxide]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3118926

****ING WIN

yay. glad its for 3 years. 4 would have been too much.

[MacNut]

CHICAGO -- The White Sox traded right-hander Jon Garland to the Los Angeles Angels on Monday for shortstop Orlando Cabrera.

The 28-year-old Garland, an 18-game winner in 2005 and 2006, was 10-13 with a 4.23 ERA in 32 starts last season. He 92-81 with a 4.41 ERA in 246 games, including 223 starts, over eight major league seasons, all with the White Sox.

Garland was acquired by the White Sox from the Cubs on July 29, 1998, for pitcher Matt Karchner.

Cabrera, 33, batted .301 with 35 doubles, eight home runs, 86 RBIs and a career-high 101 runs with the Angels last year. He had a career-high 192 hits.

He won his second Gold Glove and led AL shortstops in fielding percentage (.983). Cabrera, who has also played with Montreal and Boston during his 11-year career, is a career .273 hitter. He was on the 2004 Red Sox team that won the World Series.

Chicago also receives cash as part of the trade.
------------------------------------------------
ATLANTA -- Tom Glavine won his 300th game with the New York Mets. He plans to get his final win for the Atlanta Braves.

Glavine agreed to an $8 million, one-year contract with the Braves on Sunday, returning full time to the city he always called home even while pitching the last five years in New York.

Negotiations between the 303-game winner and the Braves lasted less than a week after Glavine made it clear he wanted to finish his career in Atlanta and the team worked out room in its budget to sign him.

Glavine pitched for the Braves from 1987-2002, winning 242 games and two NL Cy Young Awards. An afternoon news conference to formally announce the signing was scheduled for Monday at Turner Field.

"We are absolutely thrilled to bring Tom Glavine back to the Braves,'' new general manager Frank Wren said. "We've had an overwhelmingly positive response from the players on our club, our staff and our fans concerning Tom's return. Tom is a proven winner and a future Hall of Famer."

The initial talks were held Wednesday, the Braves made their first offer Friday and the details were hammered out over the weekend, said Glavine's agent, Gregg Clifton.http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3118868

[IJ Reilly]

I wonder if the Angels are moving one Cabrera to make room for another?

[MacNut]

I wonder if the Angels are moving one Cabrera to make room for another?That is the new rumor. The Angels might make a mega trade with the Marlins.

[Sobe]

I wonder if the Angels are moving one Cabrera to make room for another?

It's all about Brandon Wood @ SS.

[MacNut]

Mariano Rivera told the Yankees on Monday that he will accept their three-year, $45 million contract. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3118286)

[IJ Reilly]

That is the new rumor. The Angels might make a mega trade with the Marlins.

More fool them, then. Everything I'm hearing tells me that the Marlins are asking way too much.

[zioxide]

Mariano Rivera told the Yankees on Monday that he will accept their three-year, $45 million contract. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3118286)

lol so much for the yanks trying to get younger. They should have said happy trails to him and made Joba the closer.

[Sobe]

Bedard might be LA bound:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Al4WVQB9Macz6xlKMTEeU9U8R9MF?slug=ti-dodgersorioles112007&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

[IJ Reilly]

Bedard might be LA bound:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Al4WVQB9Macz6xlKMTEeU9U8R9MF?slug=ti-dodgersorioles112007&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Bedard is a talent, but it's tough to get very excited about any deal that involves Kemp.

[zephead]

CHICAGO -- The White Sox traded right-hander Jon Garland to the Los Angeles Angels on Monday for shortstop Orlando Cabrera.
I'm really steamed about that. Cabrera came off a wonderful year, wins a Gold Glove, and how do the Angels thank him?! "Hey Orlando, great season! Congrats on the Gold Glove! You've really done a lot for the team. Buuut we're gonna send you off to Chicago."

:mad:

[MacNut]

lol so much for the yanks trying to get younger. They should have said happy trails to him and made Joba the closer.They need Jaba more as a starter then a closer. Who knows he might be a set up man again. Rivera is still the best closer in the game and he deserved a big contract.

[zioxide]

Rivera is still the best closer in the game and he deserved a big contract.

lol.

he's 37

he hasn't been the best for at least 3 years.

[Sobe]

I'm really steamed about that. Cabrera came off a wonderful year, wins a Gold Glove, and how do the Angels thank him?! "Hey Orlando, great season! Congrats on the Gold Glove! You've really done a lot for the team. Buuut we're gonna send you off to Chicago."

:mad:

Orlando Cabrera and his career .321 OBP won't be missed.

[MacNut]

NEW YORK -- Joe Girardi has plenty of reasons to feel good about his upcoming season with the Yankees, especially with Alex Rodriguez, Jorge Posada and Mariano Rivera seemingly back in the fold.
As Girardi said, it's always better when you know who you'll be working with. As such, the Yankees officially unveiled their 2008 coaching staff on Tuesday, keeping some members of last season's crew while incorporating some new faces and roles.

Hitting coach Kevin Long and first-base coach Tony Pena will return, while Dave Eiland has been promoted to pitching coach. Rob Thomson becomes the new bench coach, and both third-base coach Bobby Meacham and bullpen coach Mike Harkey -- both members of Girardi's 2006 Marlins' coaching staff -- have joined New York.

"Now that the coaching staff is put together, we can all go to work," Girardi said. "We've already started working on Spring Training and how we'll approach it. It's obviously a lot better when you know everyone that you're going to be working with."

Three members of Girardi's staff worked under Joe Torre in 2007 -- Long, Pena and Thomson, while Eiland traveled with the team in September after his season with Triple-A Scranton/Wilkes-Barre ended.
Yankees.com (http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071120&content_id=2304694&vkey=news_nyy&fext=.jsp&c_id=nyy)

[zioxide]

BOSTON -- Following the signings of Mike Lowell and Curt Schilling, the defending World Series champion Red Sox have the luxury of knowing that both the starting nine and pitching rotation is virtually set for 2008. Perhaps that will give the front office more time to dedicate to negotiations on an extension for manager Terry Francona.

Though Francona has one year left on his existing deal, the manager and the club both have interest in extending the relationship before the 2008 season starts.

"We've been on record before as saying it's certainly one of our goals of the offseason to engage with Tito and his contract," said Red Sox general manager Theo Epstein. "That process is in the early stages, and hopefully will be done with the confidentiality that marked most of the Mike Lowell negotiations. We'll try to do it behind closed doors, but I don't want to give an exact timetable because a lot of it depends on the natural ebb and flow of the rest of the offseason as we engage in free agency and potential trades."

The Red Sox have won the World Series twice in the four years Francona has been the manager. It is conceivable Francona could make his stay in Boston a lengthy one, when you consider the way he meshes with the organization and the players.

"Certainly it's something that's very important to ownership and the front office, and Tito's interested in it as well," Epstein said. "We'll let [the media] know when there's anything to report, but right now everything is just in the preliminary stages."

Good to see they're going to give Tito an extension. He definitely deserves it, winning 2 WS in 4 years.

http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071120&content_id=2305481&vkey=news_bos&fext=.jsp&c_id=bos

[Sobe]

NEW YORK -- Joe Girardi has plenty of reasons to feel good about his upcoming season with the Yankees, especially with Alex Rodriguez, Jorge Posada and Mariano Rivera seemingly back in the fold.
As Girardi said, it's always better when you know who you'll be working with. As such, the Yankees officially unveiled their 2008 coaching staff on Tuesday, keeping some members of last season's crew while incorporating some new faces and roles.

Hitting coach Kevin Long and first-base coach Tony Pena will return, while Dave Eiland has been promoted to pitching coach. Rob Thomson becomes the new bench coach, and both third-base coach Bobby Meacham and bullpen coach Mike Harkey -- both members of Girardi's 2006 Marlins' coaching staff -- have joined New York.

"Now that the coaching staff is put together, we can all go to work," Girardi said. "We've already started working on Spring Training and how we'll approach it. It's obviously a lot better when you know everyone that you're going to be working with."

Three members of Girardi's staff worked under Joe Torre in 2007 -- Long, Pena and Thomson, while Eiland traveled with the team in September after his season with Triple-A Scranton/Wilkes-Barre ended.
Yankees.com (http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071120&content_id=2304694&vkey=news_nyy&fext=.jsp&c_id=nyy)

Bobby Meacham?

David Eiland?

Mike Harkey?

What, Aurelio Rodriguez, Dennis Rasmussen, and Cecilio Guante weren't available?

[zioxide]

Mike Lowell is the ****ing man.

Although there were lots of reports that the Phillies made a four-year offer to Mike Lowell over the weekend, that isn't quite true. They were prepared to make that offer if Lowell had told them he wanted to be a Phillie. But instead, Lowell was so intent on going back to Boston, he called the Phillies and told them it wouldn't be right to even ask for an offer. Just one more example of how one of the classiest humans in baseball operates 24/7.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=3121887

[jzieske]

Torri Hunter Signed with Los Angeles Angels last night for 5 years $90 million. Sounds like him will beocme the regualr center fielder with Vlad and Matthews Jr. splitting time at DH.

http://www.startribune.com/677/story/1567339.html

As a Twins fan this was expected but is still dispappointing, now we worry about Santana.

[zephead]

Torri Hunter Signed with Los Angeles Angels last night for 5 years $90 million. Sounds like him will beocme the regualr center fielder with Vlad and Matthews Jr. splitting time at DH.

http://www.startribune.com/677/story/1567339.html

As a Twins fan this was expected but is still dispappointing, now we worry about Santana.

:D :D I think this just might make up for Cabrera being traded.

[IJ Reilly]

Hunter was on the Dodgers' CF short list, which is now down to Jones or Rowand.

[Sobe]

:D :D I think this just might make up for Cabrera being traded.

They already had hunter though. He's GMJr.

Honestly, Hunter is not at all the kind of player they want.

They have low OBP hackers coming out of their ears.

Hunter is a career .324 OBP guy.

Does he have skills? Of course, but they don't need more of that kind of player. They need someone like Helton or someone who is more of an OBP guy.

In the last 2 years the Angels have paid big dollars for basically 2 of the same kind of player coming off career years. You can add Steve Finley to that too.

I don't think they will regret it as much as it's simply not going to help them as much as people think.

Kenny Lofton with his career .794 OPS (.001 higher than Torii Hunter's) would be a much better fit. Put him in the leadoff slot, then bat Figgins 2nd, GMJr 3rd, Vlad 4th. Much better.

Just not as flashy, but they probably could have had him for fewer years and fewer dollars.

[furcalchick]

i'm still hearing miguel to angels rumors. marlins need to just move right now.

[furcalchick]

The Braves left-hander injured his right hamstring in the first inning of his first start in the Mexican Winter League last week. He left after one inning, and it's uncertain if he'll pitch again this winter.

"We don't know when he'll come back [in winter ball], if at all," Braves general manager Frank Wren said. "There's only four weeks left in the season, and hamstring injuries usually take a while."

Hampton hurt his right hamstring when he came off the mound to make a play near the end of the first inning Thursday. He tried to keep his leg loose and come back for a second inning, but the pain worsened in warm-ups before the inning, and he left the game.

Wren said Hampton called him Friday and told him the bad news, and the GM was informed by trainers that the muscle had "bled out," usually a sign of something more than a mild strain.

http://www.ajc.com/braves/content/sports/braves/stories/2007/11/26/braves_1127.html

i don't think he pitches for the braves, or anyone else again. his career looks to be over:mad:. too bad, because he could swing a good bat and be someone's dh over in the al.

[aloofman]

i'm still hearing miguel to angels rumors. marlins need to just move right now.

If the other teams are smart, they'll wait until midseason to bid on Santana. By then the Twins will be more worried about losing him for draft picks. And there hasn't been much talk about which teams he might be willing to sign an extension with. I don't think any team wants to part with good prospects for one season of Santana.

[Teh Don Ditty]

Twins, Yankees in Talks about Santana (ESPN) (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3129086)

There is no God.

[MacNut]

Twins, Yankees in Talks about Santana (ESPN) (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3129086)

There is no God.Are the Twins that cheap that they can't keep their ace.

[zioxide]

Twins, Yankees in Talks about Santana (ESPN) (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3129086)

There is no God.

That would be a really bad trade if they traded away a couple of those pitching prospects for Santana.. for Red Sox fans. I don't know how Yankees fans couldn't love that trade. He's a 28 year old 2 time Cy Young winner.

It mirrors the Sox trading Hanley Ramirez and Anibel Sanchez for Josh Beckett.

[Teh Don Ditty]

Are the Twins that cheap that they can't keep their ace.

Yes.

That would be a really bad trade if they traded away a couple of those pitching prospects for Santana.. for Red Sox fans. I don't know how Yankees fans couldn't love that trade. He's a 28 year old 2 time Cy Young winner.

It mirrors the Sox trading Hanley Ramirez and Anibel Sanchez for Josh Beckett.

No doubt that Santana is premier pitcher, however he does play in the AL Central which really wasn't all too competitive this season. (In the beg. of season yes)

Hughes, Kennedy and Chamberlain have already pitched this season and we already got a preview of what's to come from them. As much as I would love to have Santana, I think that all 3 have a great future in front of them. It's a rebuilding year (so to speak) for the Yanks. Let them rebuild from the inside instead of buying/trading away our future. Look where it's gotten them so far.... no where.

[zioxide]

Yes.



No doubt that Santana is premier pitcher, however he does play in the AL Central which really wasn't all too competitive this season. (In the beg. of season yes)

Hughes, Kennedy and Chamberlain have already pitched this season and we already got a preview of what's to come from them. As much as I would love to have Santana, I think that all 3 have a great future in front of them. It's a rebuilding year (so to speak) for the Yanks. Let them rebuild from the inside instead of buying/trading away our future. Look where it's gotten them so far.... no where.

They could end up being flops.. Santana is proven and possibly the best pitcher in the game.

And I'd hardly call it rebuilding when you're signing multiple 35+ year olds to huge multi-year contracts.

[Teh Don Ditty]

They could end up being flops.. Santana is proven and possibly the best pitcher in the game.

And I'd hardly call it rebuilding when you're signing multiple 35+ year olds to huge multi-year contracts.

And Santana could pull an A-Rod and absolutely choke. There are no guarantees.

Mo and Posada were necessary. Too bad Posada doesn't have somebody to groom to be the next catcher. Mo has a little juice left, but I think his signing was more of the fact that he can teach his predecessor. We'll see what happens.

[aloofman]

Are the Twins that cheap that they can't keep their ace.

Yes, they are. Or more accurately, the Twins' owner is. He might be the richest owner in baseball, but doesn't care if the Twins win or not.

And Santana could pull an A-Rod and absolutely choke. There are no guarantees.


One could argue that Rodriguez hasn't pulled his weight in the playoffs, but in terms of staying on the field and producing offense, he might be the most sure thing in baseball. I wouldn't say he's "earned" $25 million a year, but at least a team knows he'll be very good and stay healthy. If that's choking, then our standards are too high.

[zioxide]

BOSTON -- Jon Lester, who came back from a cancer diagnosis in 2006 to win this year's World Series clincher for Boston, was honored Wednesday with the Tony Conigliaro Award for overcoming adversity through spirit, determination and courage.

The 23-year-old pitcher was diagnosed with a rare form of non-Hodgkin's lymphoma in August 2006. After cancer treatment during the offseason, he started the year on the disabled list. Lester was recalled in July and finished the regular season 4-0 with a 4.57 ERA.

Lester is cancer-free and will have another checkup when he returns to Boston in January to receive the award.

"It's just a storybook-type ending," he said. "If you'd have told me that at the end of last year in spring training that we would have been in that situation, I probably would have laughed at you."

The award, which will be presented at the Boston chapter of the Baseball Writers' Association of America dinner on Jan. 17, is named for the promising Red Sox player whose career was derailed when he was hit in the face by a pitch in 1967.

ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3132061)

[MacNut]

MINNEAPOLIS -- The Twins and Rays completed a blockbuster six-player deal Wednesday night that sent pitcher Matt Garza, shortstop Jason Bartlett and Minor League pitcher Eduardo Morlan to Tampa Bay in exchange for outfielder Delmon Young and two other players.
Young, 22, is considered to be one of the game's up-and-coming hitters. A first-round pick in the 2003 First-Year Player Draft, Young finished second in the American League Rookie of the Year voting behind Boston's Dustin Pedroia. He played in all 162 games for the Rays in 2007, hitting .288 with 13 home runs and 93 RBIs.

Along with Young, the Twins received shortstop Brendan Harris and outfielder Jason Pridie in the deal.

mlb.com (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071128&content_id=2313175&vkey=hotstove2007&fext=.jsp)

[aloofman]

MINNEAPOLIS -- The Twins and Rays completed a blockbuster six-player deal Wednesday night that sent pitcher Matt Garza, shortstop Jason Bartlett and Minor League pitcher Eduardo Morlan to Tampa Bay in exchange for outfielder Delmon Young and two other players.
Young, 22, is considered to be one of the game's up-and-coming hitters. A first-round pick in the 2003 First-Year Player Draft, Young finished second in the American League Rookie of the Year voting behind Boston's Dustin Pedroia. He played in all 162 games for the Rays in 2007, hitting .288 with 13 home runs and 93 RBIs.

Along with Young, the Twins received shortstop Brendan Harris and outfielder Jason Pridie in the deal.

mlb.com (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071128&content_id=2313175&vkey=hotstove2007&fext=.jsp)

How exactly is that a blockbuster?

[swiftaw]

Rumored deal is Coco Crisp, Jon Lester, Jed Lowrie + 1 other minor leaguer

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3133598

I'd say (as a sox fan) that I would love this deal. Getting Santana without giving up either Bucholtz or Ellsbury is a steal.

[MacNut]

Rumored deal is Coco Crisp, Jon Lester, Jed Lowrie + 1 other minor leaguer

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3133598

I'd say (as a sox fan) that I would love this deal. Getting Santana without giving up either Bucholtz or Ellsbury is a steal.What are the Twins gonna want with Crisp. Don't forget that Santana has a no trade and has to approve any deal.

[swiftaw]

What are the Twins gonna want with Crisp. Don't forget that Santana has a no trade and has to approve any deal.

Crisp would replace Hunter in CF. I know they just got Delmon Young, but he can't play CF (at least not well)

[MacNut]

Crisp would replace Hunter in CF. I know they just got Delmon Young, but he can't play CF (at least not well)Crisp is a major downgrade from Hunter.

[swiftaw]

Crisp is a major downgrade from Hunter.

Yes, but he is a major upgrade over anyone else they have on their roster currently. The twins aren't in a very strong bargaining position, then know in a year they lose Santana and get nothing in return so they have to grab whatever they can now.

[fotografica]

Here's how the Santana Sweepstakes currently shake out ...

1. Yankees. They have the money to pay Santana and the prospects to get a deal done, even if they don't include untouchable sensation Joba Chamberlain. The Twins likely will try to pry Phil Hughes from the Yankees, who hope a combination of Ian Kennedy, Melky Cabrera and other prospects will suffice. The Yankees are suddenly well-stocked in the minors, with pitchers Alan Horne, Daniel McCutchen and Kevin Whelan and outfielders Jose Tabata, Austin Jackson and Brett Gardner. Odds to land Santana: 2-to-1.

2. Red Sox. The Twins are pressuring Boston to include center field prodigy Jacoby Ellsbury along with World Series-clinching pitcher Jon Lester in a four-player package. However, with Boston refusing to budge on no-hit wonder Clay Buchholz, the Red Sox may have a hard time convincing the Twins to do a deal without Ellsbury. Boston also has decent second-tier guys, such as outfielder Brandon Moss, pitchers Michael Bowden and Justin Masterson and shortstop Jed Lowrie. They can't have the desperation of the Yankees, who are playing catch-up, though. Odds to land Santana: 5-to-2.

3. Angels. They possess the prospects and the wherewithal needed. But they appear to be more focused on a hitter -- namely Cabrera -- at present. Odds to land Santana: 10-to-1.

4. Dodgers. They certainly have what it takes. But they are suggesting publicly -- first in the Boston Globe, then the L.A. Times -- that they want to keep their top prospects and may do nothing more. Odds to land Santana: 15-to-1.

5. Mets. With the Twins trading young pitcher Matt Garza and adding young outfielder Delmon Young from Tampa in a six-player trade on Wednesday, there's now even more need for pitching and less need for outfield help, which is what the Mets have in surplus. New York has no starting pitchers to trade, and it has rebuffed the idea of moving either David Wright or Jose Reyes (good for them), so this looks like a non-starter. Odds to land Santana: 20-to-1.

6. Field. The Mariners have the need and the cash. But does Santana want to go from relative obscurity in Minneapolis to complete obscurity in Seattle? Good luck identifying other teams ready to pay $25 million a year to a pitcher. Odds: 25-to-1.

7. Santana stays. While it's hard to fathom the Twins suddenly enhancing their $80 million offer by 50 percent or letting Santana play out the year, there's still an outside chance that they could decide to keep him until the All-Star break -- very outside. Odds: 7-to-1.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/jon_heyman/11/29/thursday.scoop/index.html

[aloofman]

What are the Twins gonna want with Crisp. Don't forget that Santana has a no trade and has to approve any deal.

All of the rumors flying around seem to agree that any team that agrees to a trade for Santana would require a negotiating period on a new contract (new or an extension)before finalizing it, so that he doesn't become a free agent a year from now. That's probably fine with Santana, since he'd basically be negotiating his free agency contract a year early. And it's fine with the Twins too because they know that they won't get the prospects they want if a team is trading for only one year of Santana.

[fotografica]

The soap opera continues....
Johan Santana Rumors

I think it's time for a new Johan Santana thread. We'll start today with a Peter Gammons report today on Mike & Mike In The Morning.

Gammons favors the Yankees in the Santana derby, because he feels that Hank Steinbrenner could overrule Brian Cashman and include Phil Hughes in the deal. Some feel that the Red Sox are just trying to pump up the price and would then turn to the A's to get Dan Haren. Getting Haren instead of Santana may have the added benefit of not pissing off Josh Beckett about his salary



Bedard rumors
Erik Bedard Rumors

The Baltimore Sun's Jeff Zrebiec has the latest regarding ace Erik Bedard. Some rank Bedard as the best available starter, all-in-all - he's under team control for longer than Johan Santana, doesn't have no-trade rights, and has better stuff than Dan Haren.

* The Orioles and Bedard's agent never actually exchanged salary figures, and now contract extension talks have come to a stop. Andy MacPhail isn't concerned but no one seems to expect the O's to pony up the money needed to retain their ace beyond 2009. Johan Santana should set the bar; Bedard may become a $20MM pitcher.
* Zrebiec lists the Yankees, Mets, Mariners, Angels, and Dodgers as teams that have inquired on Bedard. It's surprising to see the Red Sox omitted from that list.
* The Mets made an offer: Carlos Gomez, Aaron Heilman, and perhaps Phil Humber. That's an OK starting point but the O's could do better.
* The Dodgers have also had talks with the O's, with Matt Kemp, Jonathan Broxton, and Clayton Kershaw coming up. That's certainly worth mulling over.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/baseball/bal-sp.orioles30nov30,0,7480581.story


New one I saw
Yankees Close With Loretta?

UPDATE, 11-30-07 at 10am: Troy E. Renck of the Denver Post has more on this situation. The Rockies got in touch with Loretta's agent recently but weren't optimistic on getting a deal done. While Loretta is close with the Yanks, he will let the Rockies' second base situation play out before signing because Colorado is his first choice.

FROM 11-30-07 at 8:40am:

Ryne Crabb of The Transaction Guy writes of a Buster Olney radio report wherein the Yankees were said to be close to signing Mark Loretta.

Before we punch Robinson Cano's ticket to Minnesota, remember that the Yanks have liked Loretta in the past as a first base and/or backup infield option. It may be as simple as that. To his credit, Loretta posted a .352 OBP last year (though he was awful after the break).

[zioxide]

Umm, what the **** do we need Dan Haren for? We gonna do a 7 man rotation?

[fotografica]

Umm, what the **** do we need Dan Haren for? We gonna do a 7 man rotation?

It would be instead of Santana. Seems people are wondering if Santana gets the huge pay day from the Sox,Beckett's not going to be too happy..
Who the hell knows at this point...

[zioxide]

It would be instead of Santana. Seems people are wondering if Santana gets the huge pay day from the Sox,Beckett's not going to be too happy..
Who the hell knows at this point...

So what would the trade be? If we can't get Santana I'd want to keep Lester. I don't really see the need to trade away some really good prospects for a guy who was decent in Oakland. I can see the trade for Santana because he's so damn good, but Haren is no Santana.

We're in a pretty good situation. Beckett and Matsuzaka are both locked up long term, and we have Lester and Buchholz who are both ready to go full seasons. One Schill retires we have Masterson and Bowden who should be ready. I suppose we could give up one of them, but I think a bigger priority would be trading one of them for a catching prospect, since Tek is getting old.

[fotografica]

So what would the trade be? If we can't get Santana I'd want to keep Lester. I don't really see the need to trade away some really good prospects for a guy who was decent in Oakland. I can see the trade for Santana because he's so damn good, but Haren is no Santana.

We're in a pretty good situation. Beckett and Matsuzaka are both locked up long term, and we have Lester and Buchholz who are both ready to go full seasons. One Schill retires we have Masterson and Bowden who should be ready. I suppose we could give up one of them, but I think a bigger priority would be trading one of them for a catching prospect, since Tek is getting old.

I haven't heard any possible scenarios for Haren yet.It's all Santana talk.. First priority right now is to start grooming Tek's replacement. That's one area,even in the farm system,we don't have covered yet.
I am curious tho as to why Dr. Charles went to the Dodgers??That was an abrupt departure..

[IJ Reilly]

I am curious tho as to why Dr. Charles went to the Dodgers??That was an abrupt departure..

Who is this?

[fotografica]

Who is this?

11/27/2007 1:33 PM ET
Dr. Charles Steinberg named Chief Marketing Officer of the Los Angeles Dodgers
Red Sox Executive departs after six seasons

http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20071127&content_id=2312267&vkey=pr_bos&fext=.jsp&c_id=bos


Was a bit of a surprise.Just came out of the blue on that day..

[MacNut]

Who is this?

http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20071127&content_id=2312267&vkey=pr_bos&fext=.jsp&c_id=bos


Was a bit of a surprise.Just came out of the blue on that day..No offense but is that really a big deal that someone in the front office moves on?

[IJ Reilly]

No offense but is that really a big deal that someone in the front office moves on?

Not to me. I guess it's a slow hot stove day. ;)

[MacNut]

Not to me. I guess it's a slow hot stove day. ;)Here is something to wet your whistle.WASHINGTON -- Catcher Brian Schneider and outfielder Ryan Church were traded to the New York Mets by the Washington Nationals on Friday for outfielder Lastings Milledge.http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3135229

[aloofman]

Not to me. I guess it's a slow hot stove day. ;)

Considering how poor the McCourts have been at PR, I take it as a positive.

[IJ Reilly]

Here is something to wet your whistle.

Be still, my heart.

Lastings Milledge is one of my favorite ballplayers... names.

[fotografica]

No offense but is that really a big deal that someone in the front office moves on?

Not a big deal at all guy.But since there are some Dodger fans on here, just thought I'd throw it out there...Besides,it's November 30th Not much happening...

[MacNut]

Rumor is that if the Yankees ad Phil Hughes into the trade for Santana that could be guaranteed to get him.Yankees people are debating now whether to give in to Minnesota's demands that Phil Hughes be included in trade talks involving Johan Santana. If the Yankees ultimately surrender Hughes, league sources indicate they have a decent chance to complete a trade for baseball's best pitcher.

The Yankees have been offering a package leading with young pitcher Ian Kennedy and outfielder Melky Cabrera, but the Twins are insisting that Hughes be included. The Yankees made Joba Chamberlain off-limits but it appears Minnesota would settle for Hughes if the other pieces are right.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/11/30/santana.update/index.html

[zioxide]

Rumor is that if the Yankees ad Phil Hughes into the trade for Santana that could be guaranteed to get him.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/11/30/santana.update/index.html

That will happen. Cashman might not like it but Princes Hank and Hal will overrule him.

[fotografica]

Rumor is that if the Yankees ad Phil Hughes into the trade for Santana that could be guaranteed to get him.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/11/30/santana.update/index.html

Good..Hope it happens so this deal can get done and we can move on.

[Teh Don Ditty]

:TDD puts gun to head.... pulls trigger:

[MacNut]

:TDD puts gun to head.... pulls trigger:We may not have a choice in giving up Hughes, can't let Santana go to the Red Sox, and we need a quality starter now.For now, however, the Yankees are right in the thick of the bidding, having decided in internal discussions on Friday to offer pitcher Phil Hughes, rather than Ian Kennedy, into their offer, along with Melky Cabrera and a third player -- in all likelihood, a minor leaguer. The Yankees have told the Twins that the third player cannot be any of their very best young players -- Kennedy or Joba Chamberlain or second baseman Robinson Cano, for example, but a second-tier prospect

Pettitte seems to be aiming towards retirement.The Yankees and Red Sox are also engaged in ongoing talks with the Oakland Athletics about Dan Haren, an accomplished pitcher who is a much cheaper option than Santana. Haren would cost, in prospects, a package comparable to what Santana is commanding, but he is already under contract for the next three years at $16.25 million (presuming his team exercises an option for 2010).http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3136495

[zioxide]

So if Hughes is officially in the package I'd say there's about an 80% chance the trade gets done.

[zioxide]

ESPN is reporting that the Sox would be willing to include Ellsbury in the deal but then they would not include Lester. It would be a deal of Ellsbury, Masterson, and maybe Lowrie. SI says that the Twins would also have to include a position player (prospect) along with Santana.

IMO, stupid trade. I don't want to see Coco Strikeout in the ****ing lineup again. Ellsbury is a major upgrade over Crisp offensively. While having Santana would be great, I don't really want the Red Sox to turn in to the Yankees, trading away their future to get an all-star. Ellsbury, Lester, Buchholz will all be able to give us 10 years of service. Santana would probably give 5 solid years before he would start to decline. We already have Beckett, Matsuzaka (who will probably be alot better this year), Buchholz (who could be the next Beckett/Santana), Lester, and Masterson and Bowden to fill out the 5th spot in a couple of years.

[MacNut]

deeper in that article...The Yankees, meanwhile, have informed the Twins that they are going to pull their offer off the table soon -- perhaps by Tuesday at the latest -- unless they get an answer. The Yankees changed their offer on Friday, adding pitcher Phil Hughes after much internal debate, to go along with Melky Cabrera and a third prospect.

The Yankees have told the Twins they will not give them one of their top prospects as the third player in their offer -- not pitchers Ian Kennedy or Alan Horne, or outfielder Austin Jackson, for example.

It's possible that the Twins may find that the offers from Boston and the Yankees are not acceptable, and decide, ultimately, to keep Santana. But executives involved in the trade talks fully expect that the Twins will trade Santana, and that they will make a decision within the next 72 hours on what offer they prefer. If either the Yankees or the Red Sox were to pull out of negotiations, the Twins' leverage would be greatly diminished.

[fotografica]

ESPN is reporting that the Sox would be willing to include Ellsbury in the deal but then they would not include Lester. It would be a deal of Ellsbury, Masterson, and maybe Lowrie. SI says that the Twins would also have to include a position player (prospect) along with Santana.

IMO, stupid trade. I don't want to see Coco Strikeout in the ****ing lineup again. Ellsbury is a major upgrade over Crisp offensively. While having Santana would be great, I don't really want the Red Sox to turn in to the Yankees, trading away their future to get an all-star. Ellsbury, Lester, Buchholz will all be able to give us 10 years of service. Santana would probably give 5 solid years before he would start to decline. We already have Beckett, Matsuzaka (who will probably be alot better this year), Buchholz (who could be the next Beckett/Santana), Lester, and Masterson and Bowden to fill out the 5th spot in a couple of years.

I'm not liking that scenario at all..I'm really not keen on mortgaging the future to win now,esp since the Sox have won two of the last four WS..

[MacNut]

I'm not liking that scenario at all..I'm really not keen on mortgaging the future to win now,esp since the Sox have won two of the last four WS..That hasn't stopped them in the past.

[zioxide]

That hasn't stopped them in the past.

err, when? key point is that we have won 2 of the last 4 WS.

[MacNut]

err, when? key point is that we have won 2 of the last 4 WS.I seem to recall a certain Jeff Bagwell, Im sure there are many others.;)

[zioxide]

I seem to recall a certain Jeff Bagwell, Im sure there are many others.;)

That was a while ago.

[MacNut]

That was a while ago.My point is that the Red Sox have given up good prospects in the past only for it to bite them later on.

[Teh Don Ditty]

Moot point(s). Every team has done that. That's why I'm vehemently against the trade for Santana. Stop mortgaging the future to try to win now.

[Sobe]

That was a while ago.

we can add three more to that:

Bronson Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena.

Wily Mo Pena to Nats (sort of via Arizona) and get Chris Carter.

Kason Gabbard, David Murphy and Engel Beltre for Eric Gagne.

[nickster9224]

Ya. Rowand want to come back to the whitesox. Only question is do they want him back. i hope he comes back.

[MacNut]

Today is the first day of the Baseball winter meetings, this year they are in Nashville.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove07/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=3138769

[quagmire]

While the Yankees do need good pitchers, I am not sure if they can afford giving up the rocket of an arm Melky provides in center field. Abreu's and Damon's arm are WEAK and Matsui's is decent.

[zioxide]

we can add three more to that:

Bronson Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena.

Wily Mo Pena to Nats (sort of via Arizona) and get Chris Carter.

Kason Gabbard, David Murphy and Engel Beltre for Eric Gagne.

The only one that was trading away prospects for an all-star was the Gagme trade.

[MacNut]

The only one that was trading away prospects for an all-star was the Gagme trade.But the other trades were for worse players.

[MacNut]

Andy Pettitte has decided to return to the Yankees.
NASHVILLE, Tenn. -- Andy Pettitte has decided to put off retirement and pitch for the New York Yankees in 2008.

Pettitte's agent, Randy Hendricks, said Monday that the 35-year-old left-hander had started telling teammates on Sunday. Hendricks then informed Yankees general manager Brian Cashman of the news.

The Houston Chronicle first reported that Pettitte would return in 2008.

[Naimfan]

So if the Yankees wind up with Santana, does the balance of power change appreciably?

I'm rather hoping the Twins say no to both the Yankees and the Red Sox, and that the Yankees keep Hughes, Stewart, and Chamberlain, and that they continue to develop as they have to date.

[fotografica]

So if the Yankees wind up with Santana, does the balance of power change appreciably?
.

Not at all..The Yankees would have Santana and four other guys as their rotation...Not gonna get it done...

[Naimfan]

Not at all..The Yankees would have Santana and four other guys as their rotation...Not gonna get it done...

Yep, that's kinda why I'd prefer the Yankees just keep their three young arms. They'll be better off, most likely, in the long run.

[zioxide]

I hope the Twins end up keeping him.

[MacNut]

I hope the Twins end up keeping him.Not gonna happen, they might keep him for now but he will be gone by the all star break.

[zioxide]

Not gonna happen, they might keep him for now but he will be gone by the all star break.

They could change their minds and end up giving him an extension. They can definitely afford it, but their owner is just cheap.

Santana and Liriano gives them a great 1-2 punch.

[iKwick7]

While the Yankees do need good pitchers, I am not sure if they can afford giving up the rocket of an arm Melky provides in center field. Abreu's and Damon's arm are WEAK and Matsui's is decent.

And Abreu is crazy afraid of walls. Melky has a damn good glove, too.

Melky will seriously be missed if they trade him. I'm all for keeping all 3 young pitchers and trying to buy Santana when he becomes a free agent.

[fotografica]

I hope the Twins end up keeping him.

Wouldn't bother me a bit...

Santana has a no trade clause in his current contract. He has to waive that before he can be traded by the Twinkies. Reportedly he will only waive it if he signs a new deal with his new team first, and he's asking $150 million over 6 years, or $25 million a year. The only player in all of baseball making more is A-Rod. Santana wants $25 million to play once a week and start what, 35 games a year?

Bucholz, Lester and Papilbon together aren't making $1 million a year combined.

Then, in two years, you have Beckett at the end of his contract, and if his numbers are better than Santana's, and IMO they will be, what will he ask for? And he'll still be younger than Santana.

Then you have the little detail that Santana was 15-13 last year, with an ERA around 4.00, and served up 33 dingers in a ballpark that doesn't have a green wall 310' away breathing down a lefty pitcher's neck.

And for this, you're willing to trade a prospect who can hit for average, has shown a little power, with speed and a great glove and a good arm. The guy came up into the middle of a pennant race, with no Major League experience, hit .353 down the stretch and .360 in the post season, stole 9 bases in 9 tries only reaching base 49 times. Speed is the one thing your team lacks and this kid has speed to spare. You can work on your hitting, you can work on your defense, and you can work on your pitch selection, but the two things that God gave an outfielder that he can't learn are his legs and his arm. Oh, yeah, and he's equally at home in all 3 outfield positions.

[zioxide]

ugh

Reports say that the Sox have exchanged medical records for Jon Lester with the Twins.

[MacNut]

The Yankees have just about given up on Santana and are setting their eyes on Haren.That got those teams' wheels turning again -- and did so, coincidentally, at the same time the Yankees were almost simultaneously beginning to talk themselves out of this trade.

Officials from other clubs said several of the Yankees' baseball personnel at the meetings had begun openly questioning whether they even wanted to make this trade if the Twins said yes.

"The more this goes on," said one AL executive, "the less they want to do it."
The Twins haven't budged since Friday. They wanted Kennedy then, and they still did on Monday.

Meanwhile, officials from other clubs said some Yankees baseball personnel at the meetings have continued to agonize over the inclusion of Hughes in their offer, out of fear Hughes could come back to haunt them for years. So clearly, the decision to include Hughes in the first place was far from unanimous.

Cashman admitted there's a fear that players he might trade could win Cy Young Awards for another team.
"I'm definitely fully invested in a lot of the young talent. You get attached to it," Cashman said, according to the AP.

And if the Yankees had any inclination whatsoever to waver on their stand a few days ago, the news Monday that Andy Pettitte had decided to return undoubtedly helped ease those concerns.
With Pettitte back, the Yankees can mount a respectable rotation, with or without Santana -- around Pettitte, Chien-Ming Wang, Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy and Mike Mussina. They also are expected to renew their efforts to trade for Oakland's Dan Haren.

[zioxide]

The Yankees are extremely overvaluing Kennedy. I don't know how they would let someone like him hold up a trade for the best pitcher in MLB.

[MacNut]

The Yankees are extremely overvaluing Kennedy. I don't know how they would let someone like him hold up a trade for the best pitcher in MLB.I don't think the Yankees want to make this deal at all, why risk all the young talent. It is obvious that they don't want to trade Hughes. Maybe the Steinbrenner era is finally over where making big trades for 2 years of service is the norm. Don't forget that if the Red Sox sign Santana they still have to pay him $25 mil a year. I'd rather the Yankees spend all that elsewhere.

[quagmire]

The Yankees are extremely overvaluing Kennedy. I don't know how they would let someone like him hold up a trade for the best pitcher in MLB.

Hughes is also holding up the trade though he is on the offer card. I as well hope they don't trade for Santana because they need a good arm in center......

[Naimfan]

I still think the Yankees are best off keeping Hughes, Chamberlain, and Kennedy. Three good, young, ascending pitchers versus one great pitcher who is on the way down already? And who will tie up a ton of payroll? If the Twins had stuck with Hughes and Cabrera and a third (mid-level) prospect, it would be bad enough.

As for the A's wanting Hughes, Cabrera, and Kennedy--please, no. If I'm Cashman, I just laugh as I hang up the phone....

[MacNut]

The Yankees are extremely overvaluing Kennedy. I don't know how they would let someone like him hold up a trade for the best pitcher in MLB.Don't underestimate Kennedy. I think the Yankees offer is still better then what the Red Sox are offering. If they pull this off the Twins are the ones getting screwed.

[Naimfan]

The Red Sox are extremely overvaluing Ellsbury. I don't know how they would let someone like him hold up a trade for the best pitcher in MLB.

There. Fixed it for you! ;)

[MacNut]

There. Fixed it for you! ;)My the tables might be turning, the Yankees are not willing to give up talent and the Red Sox are gonna blow it all away.:p I hope the Red Sox don't bitch and moan anymore about how much the Yankees throw their money around.

-----------------------------------------------------------
In other news,
Report: Mitchell findings to get pre-holiday release
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3140853

Wouldn't it be sweet if after the Red Sox sign Santana they find out he's on "the list".:p

[zioxide]

There. Fixed it for you! ;)

They might be overvaluing him a bit but not "extremely", considering there's nobody to replace Ellsbury. The Yankees would be bringing in a pitcher to replace Hughes and Kennedy probably isn't major league ready.

If the Twins took the Ellsbury deal, they would be the ones who would be overvaluing Ellsbury.

[Naimfan]

Not really, considering there's nobody to replace Ellsbury. And the Red Sox already have their ace pitcher. The Yankees would be bringing in a pitcher to replace Hughes and Kennedy probably isn't major league ready.

Still, for want of an unproven center fielder the Sox would let the best pitcher in the game go?

[zioxide]

Still, for want of an unproven center fielder the Sox would let the best pitcher in the game go?

Like I said, I don't think the Twins would be smart to let Santana go for Ellsbury.

And the Red Sox aren't going to give up two of their young guys to get him.

[MacNut]

Like I said, I don't think the Twins would be smart to let Santana go for Ellsbury.

And the Red Sox aren't going to give up two of their young guys to get him.It does smell fishy that the Twins would take the lesser offer from the Red Sox.

[Naimfan]

Here's a question:

I've not researched it, but it seems that true ace pitchers don't have very long shelf lives these days. Even Santana fell off significantly last year--in terms of ERA, won-loss record, OBP, etc. So while he might be very good for some time, I think it's tough to say he'll be as great as he was in the past.

A quick search turned up this interesting (http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-152258175.html) link. So a few pitchers recently (since about 1980) have lasted as true aces: Clemens, Maddux, Johnson, Martinez. Aside from that group, Santana might be in that group, along with Beckett, Sabathia, etc. But it's also true that Beckett, Sabathia, etc. might be Dontrelle Willis or Chris Carpenter or . . .

So how long does a true ace last as a true ace?

[IJ Reilly]

So how long does a true ace last as a true ace?

Virtually all pitchers are going to start to decline by their mid-30s if not sooner, if they have surgical repairs. Even the ones who survive longer will do so with reduced velocity and have to learn to compensate. The ones that live by the fast ball are the first to go, it seems to me -- with a few exceptions of course.