MLB Hotstove 08

[zioxide]

The more I think and read about this, the more I don't like the trade.

- I definitely don't want to give up Buchholz or Ellsbury.
- Lester has a ton of potential and he's only 23 years old. When he and Papelbon were drafted, the Sox actually valued Lester higher than Papelbon. If it were not for his setback because of cancer, he would have been great this year.
- Masterson looks to be a great RP prospect, which we definitely need since the bullpen could always use another good young arm.
- Santana is going to demand a huge contract which is going to be a waste of money. It's just going to turn us in to the Yankees.
- Santana is a power pitcher who's already had 180 starts. He's probably already peaked and might be starting to decline, as evidenced by his stats and performance for this past season.
- Buchholz, Ellsbury, Lester, and Masterson will earn less than 1/10th of what Santana would earn in about 3 years and would contribute much more.
- Santana is going to come in and demand twice as much money as Beckett, who just won us the World Series, is making.
- We already have our ace. We also have Matsuzaka who is going to be much better next year.

Oh, and the key point:

- We won the World Series with this team, and have won 2 of the past 4 WS. We're not desperate to win a championship. We don't need to turn in to the Yankees, trading away the future for a guy who's only going to be effective for about 4 years.

Many media outlets are now saying that the Angels are in talks for Santana because their Cabrera deal has fallen through. I hope they get him. We could use our prospects for a better trade for a position that we actually need, something involving Crisp, Lowrie, Bowden to get us an A grade catcher prospect to replace Tek in a couple years.

[Naimfan]

The more I think and read about this, the more I don't like the trade.



That's how I feel about the Yankees trading for him. It seems unwise to give up young players with (effectively) unlimited potential for someone who can only go down.....I sincerely hope Cashman is able to hold off!

[zioxide]

That's how I feel about the Yankees trading for him. It seems unwise to give up young players with (effectively) unlimited potential for someone who can only go down.....I sincerely hope Cashman is able to hold off!

Except the Yankees are going to be ****ed if Santana goes to the Sox.

The two best pitchers in the game, followed by Matsuzaka, Buchholz, and the veteran Schilling.

Johan Santana to the Red Sox is all but done. Jon Lester, a center fielder, Justin Masterson and Ryan Kalish are the package. More details now.

--Will Carroll, 5:15 p.m.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6970

Has to be Coco Crisp. Including Ellsbury and Kalish in that deal would be awful.

[zioxide]

ESPN Sportscenter Breaking News:

Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis to Detroit for 6 prospects/young players.

This also opens the Angels up to negotiate more with the Twins now that they are apparently out of the running for Cabrera.

[furcalchick]

ESPN Sportscenter Breaking News:

Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis to Detroit for 6 prospects/young players.

This also opens the Angels up to negotiate more with the Twins now that they are apparently out of the running for Cabrera.

i'm hearing that this is going to be moving time for the marlins...

[MacNut]

Except the Yankees are going to be ****ed if Santana goes to the Sox.

The two best pitchers in the game, followed by Matsuzaka, Buchholz, and the veteran Schilling.



http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6970

Has to be Coco Crisp. Including Ellsbury and Kalish in that deal would be awful.The Yankees will survive. it will be nice to call the Red Sox the evil empire for a change.:cool:

The one team really getting screwed is the Twins.The Tigers and Marlins have agreed to a monster trade -- Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis to Detroit for Andrew Miller, Cameron Maybin, Mike Rabelo and three minor leaguer pitchers.And the Marlins wonder why they never have any fans.:rolleyes:

[zioxide]

Since the Yanks are out of the trade talks with Santana, the Sox should get out too. If the Twins can't find a good deal for him, they won't trade him. And odds are, they wouldn't be able to trade him at the trade deadline because he wouldn't waive his no trade clause.

Then he would become a free agent and we could sign him without giving up prospects.

[MacNut]

Then he would become a free agent and we could sign him without giving up prospects.That is all well and good except that Santana is going to want 150 mil, 25 a year.

Don't expect the Red Sox to be the only team to go after him then either.;)

The whole reason the Twins are trading him now is to get something back for him, they are not going to let him walk and be left empty handed. Of course if they take the Red Sox deal they just about will be empty handed.:rolleyes:

[itgoesbuzz]

Willis may struggle coming from the NL to the AL but overall I like this for the Tigers. They traded potential, for young proven MLB talent.

[furcalchick]

marlin fans are in a frenzy right now...what a disgrace to get rid of those two players in miguel and dontrelle. here's a thread from a marlins forum talking about this dumb move in fire sale part three.

http://www.marlinbaseball.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=78813

[zioxide]

from SOSH
FWIW, McAdam reported on Sports Tonight that the Sox package is Lester, Masterson, and Kalish. No Crisp, No Ellsbury. He explicitly said that, but he must be wrong.

[MacNut]

marlin fans are in a frenzy right now...what a disgrace to get rid of those two players in miguel and dontrelle. here's a thread from a marlins forum talking about this dumb move in fire sale part three.

http://www.marlinbaseball.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=78813How do they expect to get a new stadium built if they don't have anyone worth watching. Why do these teams complain about not making money when they don't pay anyone. If your not going to spend the money on players why bother even running a team. Either sell it or close up shop and do something else.

-----------------------------------------------------------
The New York Yankees found a fresh arm for their bullpen Tuesday, reaching a preliminary agreement to trade Tyler Clippard to the Washington Nationals for right-hander Jonathan Albaladejo in a quiet swap of young pitchers.

The deal was subject to physicals, according to a person familiar with the talks who spoke on condition of anonymity because the trade had not yet been completed.

The 25-year-old Albaladejo was 1-1 with a 1.88 ERA in 14 relief appearances for Washington this season. The rookie struck out 12 and walked two in 14 1/3 innings. He also went 3-0 with a 1.13 ERA in 15 games at Triple-A Columbus.

Clippard made an impressive major league debut in May before a Sunday night national television audience. The 22-year-old beat the New York Mets 6-2 at Shea Stadium to help the Yankees avoid a Subway Series sweep. The lanky right-hander allowed three hits over six innings.

He was sent back down to the minors in June and finished 3-1 with a 6.33 ERA in six starts for the Yankees this year. He gave up six homers and 17 walks in 27 innings.

[furcalchick]

How do they expect to get a new stadium built if they don't have anyone worth watching. Why do these teams complain about not making money when they don't pay anyone. If your not going to spend the money on players why bother even running a team. Either sell it or close up shop and do something else.

it gets worse...loria just made a $20 million donation to yale the other day. looks like he's pocketing the money. and i heard that the $30 million in revenue sharing is all supposed to be payroll money (a salary floor), not pocketing money. he's ultra cheap and wants to pocket as much money as possible. i don't think he even wanted to get a new stadium, i think he was in this to take miami for a ride, before eventually packing up to vegas, which i see happening now with their two big stars gone and likely less people going to games. people like loria make me lose faith in capitalism sometimes.

[MacNut]

There is never going to be a team in Vegas.

[furcalchick]

There is never going to be a team in Vegas.

it's probably going to be portland then. but it sounds like what bud and loria are up to is disgusting. how much longer until we get a real commissioner with teeth like goodell and kick out slimy owners like loria?

i found this gem posted by a nats fan on that thread linked from earlier.

Hey Fish Fans,

I'm coming over here from Nationals Fan Forum(we've got you guys linked as our de-facto Marlins info source :).

anyhow, just to offer an opinion:

this is sad, and i can't believe I am going to say this, but now I believe all those Expos conspiracy theorists that I've argued with over the years during our Relocation Saga. I didn't want to believe them, but I do now. man, they were right. The Expos were sabotaged in order to move them, and now they are doing the same thing to the Marlins.

this is shameful. Loria and Selig are doing the exact same thing with the Marlins that they did with the Expos, in the exact same manner. right down to playing games in San Juan. sure the end result was great for me, as I got a hometown baseball team, but it is still shameful that this is how it has to go down(i woulda been happy with an expansion team,honestly), and I feel for the Marlins fans who are still sticking with the team through all this.

and it is even more shameful in this case, because Miami *was* going to seriously consider funding for a brand new, publicly financed stadium. if i am to understand things correctly. but Loria found some excuse to back out of the deal, even though it likely favored him anyway.

I'm just wondering which franchise Loria/Selig are going to target next, how long will MLB own the Marlins for, and how long will MLB jerk around the City of Portland(the most OBVIOUS, and sensible candidate for relocation, imo) like they jerked around DC(and i don't just mean in 04, i man for years before that), before they finally decide to put the Marlins there.

Loria, and Bud Selig should be arrested (or something) for what they are doing.

[MacNut]

It's nothing new, they do it in all sports when they want a team moved.

...cough...http://www.petitionspot.com/uploads/37416-Whalers.gif...cough.

[Teh Don Ditty]

It's nothing new, they do it in all sports when they want a team moved.

...cough...http://www.petitionspot.com/uploads/37416-Whalers.gif...cough.

LET'S GO WHALERS!!!

Sigh. I miss that team which is now the 2005-2006 Stanley Cup Champion Carolina Hurricanes.

[Naimfan]

Except the Yankees are going to be ****ed if Santana goes to the Sox.

The two best pitchers in the game, followed by Matsuzaka, Buchholz, and the veteran Schilling.


Perhaps, for a year, assuming no injuries. Schilling will show he's done, and Buchholz and Matsuzaka will learn that major league hitters will hit them a LOT better in year 2..... And as we've noted, Santana is only headed down.....

I mean, it's not like Beckett won the Cy Young this year..... ;)

[MacNut]

It does seem that the Red Sox are not preaching what they teach, They always compain that the Yankees buy championchips and it looks like the Red Sox are becoming the Yankees of old. I seem to recall everyone saying that the underdogs seem to do better now a days and who would the underdog be now.;)

[zioxide]

It does seem that the Red Sox are not preaching what they teach, They always compain that the Yankees buy championchips and it looks like the Red Sox are becoming the Yankees of old. I seem to recall everyone saying that the underdogs seem to do better now a days and who would the underdog be now.;)

Except the Red Sox don't go signing 36-37 year olds to $45+ million dollar contracts.

Perhaps, for a year, assuming no injuries.

Same goes for any team. I mean, look at what happened in April/May when Wang & Co were hurt. Yankees fell 14 games back.

[IJ Reilly]

marlin fans are in a frenzy right now...

Marlins fans? Sorry, I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around this concept!

[zioxide]

lol.

Marlins 2008 Payroll is going to be around $12 million.

Yankees is going to be around $210 million. According to reports this morning, the reason they rejected the Santana trade was because they didn't want to get up to the $230-$240 million range.

A-Rod will make more money by the All Star Break than the entire Marlins roster.

[fotografica]

12:15 p.m., from Peter Gammons
• Don't expect to see a Twins-Red Sox or Twins-Yankees whopper. The sense is now that Minnesota will hold onto Johan Santana.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=winter_meetings


Piss or get off the pot for cripe's sake....

UPDATE, 12-5-07 at 9:56am: According to Keith Law via MetsBlog, the Twins have reached out to the Mets, Dodgers, and Angels to revisit Santana talks.

http://www.metsblog.com/2007/12/05/buzz-twins-reach-out-to-mets-and-others/

[Naimfan]

Same goes for any team. I mean, look at what happened in April/May when Wang & Co were hurt. Yankees fell 14 games back.

Rather undercuts your statement that the Yankees are in trouble for the next ten years, no? ;)

[zioxide]

Rather undercuts your statement that the Yankees are in trouble for the next ten years, no? ;)

Injury is always something that can happen. Assuming everyone stays heathy, the Red Sox will probably be the frontrunners in the AL East for a while :p.

Epstein has drafted great and the Sox have a ton of great prospects in the farm system. Our future is bright.

If the Santana trade doesn't happen, we have Masterson who could become a great setup guy for Papelbon, Lowrie to replace Lugo, Kalish to replace Manny or JD. Anderson to play 1B, Youk moving to 3rd when Lowell retires. Bowden to join the rotation behind Beckett, Dice-k, Buchholz, Lester after Schill and Wake retire.

The only position we don't have right now is catcher. I'd like to see them trade Crisp and a prospect to get a good catching prospect.

Meanwhile, the Yankees just locked up a 37 year old catcher and 38 year old closer for 4 and 3 years for almost 90 million combined.

[MacNut]

Being a front runner doesn't mean anything, the Yankees were the frontrunner for 15 years, Just because you have the best team on paper doesn't mean anything in the real world. Most of the teams that have won it all were underdogs.

[zioxide]

Being a front runner doesn't mean anything, the Yankees were the frontrunner for 15 years, Just because you have the best team on paper doesn't mean anything in the real world. Most of the teams that have won it all were underdogs.

Well when the Yankees were front runners, they went to 6 WS, won 4 and won 12 straight AL East titles.

[Naimfan]

Well when the Yankees were front runners, they went to 6 WS, won 4 and won 12 straight AL East titles.

Touche!
;)

[MacNut]

Well when the Yankees were front runners, they went to 6 WS, won 4 and won 12 straight AL East titles.They were not the front runners in 96, the Braves were. 97 the Indians were. 98-2001 they were the best. But in 96-2001 they did not buy from outside. All of those wins were from within. You can argue that both Red Sox championships were with outside help. The only big trade the Yankees made was for Paul O'Neil, and he wasn't a big time trade.

The Red Sox won only because of Ortiz Manny and Schilling, and they were all traded for.

[zioxide]

They were not the front runners in 96, the Braves were. 97 the Indians were. 98-2001 they were the best. But in 96-2001 they did not buy from outside. All of those wins were from within. You can argue that both Red Sox championships were with outside help. The only big trade the Yankees made was for Paul O'Neil, and he wasn't a big time trade.

The Red Sox won only because of Ortiz Manny and Schilling, and they were all traded for.

I'll agree with that for 2004, but 2007 had a lot of homegrown talent as well. Jonathan Papelbon, Jon Lester, Manny Delcarmen, Kevin Youkilis, Dustin Pedroia, Jacoby Ellsbury, Clay Buchholz, Brandon Moss all contributed.

[MacNut]

I'll agree with that for 2004, but 2007 had a lot of homegrown talent as well. Jonathan Papelbon, Jon Lester, Manny Delcarmen, Kevin Youkilis, Dustin Pedroia, Jacoby Ellsbury.But without Beckett and Lowell they still would not have won.

[Naimfan]

I'll agree with that for 2004, but 2007 had a lot of homegrown talent as well. Jonathan Papelbon, Jon Lester, Manny Delcarmen, Kevin Youkilis, Dustin Pedroia, Jacoby Ellsbury, Clay Buchholz, Brandon Moss all contributed.

Granted on the point of 07 having a lot of homegrown talent, but without Ramirez, Ortiz, Schilling, Lowell, and Beckett, the Sox don't even get close.

That's not meant as an indictment, either--it's a credit to the Sox making good, smart, effective trades.

[zioxide]

But without Beckett and Lowell they still would not have won.

Granted on the point of 07 having a lot of homegrown talent, but without Ramirez, Ortiz, Schilling, Lowell, and Beckett, the Sox don't even get close.

That's not meant as an indictment, either--it's a credit to the Sox making good, smart, effective trades.

Well yeah. But it goes back to the homegrown talent too. It's all about managing and deciding the best way to use them. Like trading Hanley Ramirez and Anibel Sanchez for Josh Beckett and Mike Lowell. That was a good trade. Beckett was only 25 at the time and we only had to give up 2 guys, not the whole farm.

Santana is 29 and we'd have to give up at least 3 prospects. It just doesn't seem worth it to me, especially given how well Theo & Co have drafted. We have a bunch of great guys who will be impact players in 3-4 years.


In fact, it seems like that might be what Epstein is feeling now:

And the sentiment seems to have spilled into the Boston Red Sox's suite here at the Opryland Hotel. General manager Theo Epstein, in particular, has cooled on acquiring Santana now that the Yankees have pulled out, according to a source. Part of it involves the surrendering of four players to snag a pitcher who may request $25 million a year, and another is the fact that the Red Sox don't want to be like the Yankees, gobbling up every big name, overpaying and ending up a bloated mess.

That said, this is Johan Santana, baseball's pitcher, and the right deal would quash any such feelings.

"I wouldn't even touch (talking about Santana)," Red Sox manager Terry Francona said Wednesday morning. "The best way I can answer that is I, and we, love our young players. So much stuff seems to fly around the lobby that … wow. It's interesting."

Yahoo (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/mlb_experts/post/Red-Sox-iffy-on-Santana;_ylt=AtLEVnw2tNps4n0pKtJb7oapu7YF?urn=mlb,56364)

[furcalchick]

Marlins 2008 Payroll is going to be around $12 million.

...

A-Rod will make more money by the All Star Break than the entire Marlins roster.

reason why arod should have just bought the marlins from loria. they aren't worth much, and probably would have interfered with bud's plan to get them out of there anyway. most marlin fans are disgruntled, don't be surprised to see record low attendance numbers from florida. (i can't believe that's the only baseball i'll get down here, time to get mlb.tv or something).

and i think the revenue sharing of $30 million is supposed to be used on payroll, not pocketing more cash (as in a soft salary floor). loria should be in huge trouble for this one, but he's not. that franchise is a total disgrace.

[fotografica]

You can argue that both Red Sox championships were with outside help. The Red Sox won only because of Ortiz Manny and Schilling, and they were all traded for.


We can also argue that you still haven't accepted the fact that the Red Sox have won 2 of the last 4 WS.Yet you still continue to diminish the wins and put qualifiers with them,simply because it's not your beloved Yankees.
As a matter of fact,I'll argue that sliding needles under my fingernails is more enjoyable than listening to you argue your belabored points....

[MacNut]

We can also argue that you still haven't accepted the fact that the Red Sox have won 2 of the last 4 WS.Yet you still continue to diminish the wins and put qualifiers with them,simply because it's not your beloved Yankees.
As a matter of fact,I'll argue that sliding needles under my fingernails is more enjoyable than listening to you argue your belabored points....The argument was about home grown talent, not bought talent. If you are going strictly by home grown the Yankees did that in 96,98,99.2000. If you want to argue that everything since has been bought fine. But don't diminish what the Yankees did in the 90's. Compare that to how the Red Sox won they needed outside help. Don't deny that fact. I would say the Yankees did pretty well then compared to what teams are spending now and not getting any return. The Red Sox won 2, great. Lets see them do it without the big stars, wait they can't. They needed Beckett and Schilling. The Yankees had the best farm system in the late 90's and did not need any outside help.

[furcalchick]

to add on the whole marlins thing, one of the local talk show hosts is in an outrage right now. he's calling out the owners for being the worst ever, saying they don't care about the fans or winning.

he says that baseball, although a business and should make money, shouldn't be in it for the sole purpose of making money (this i agree with totally). because he's saying that loria and co. is simply pocketing as much money as possible from revenue sharing without spending any of it on trying to win. they don't care about winning or about how many fans that show up, because he already has the cash he wants. he's calling out mlb to remove loria or to do something about it, because he utterly doesn't care about anything expect making money. he also mentioned that 66 players make more money than the whole marlins payroll per year, loria's $20 million yale donation (so he could afford miguel and dontrelle, he just didn't want to lose his cash) and that he lives in new york. he's saying relocation is pretty much next, as they just want to squeeze every last cent out there, while losing 100 games. he also is hated by the marlins, so he took one more shot at them, saying that fredi (manager), is going to be in a total mess this year, and it's going to be worst team ever (south florida sports are going straight into the toilet).

he closed his ranting by saying that the relationship between the fans and owners are the worst he's ever seen (worse than the knicks), pretty much like a divorced couple who still live together. and he's going to have fun watching this joke of a team because he hates the marlins ownership and they hate him.

[MacNut]

I wonder what MLB can and will do, can they oust an owner for not spending enough. Or do they not have any say in the matter. Im sure the union could step in but on what grounds.NASHVILLE, Tenn -- With the Red Sox still trying to match names with the Twins, other teams -- including the Mets -- are trying to jump into the Johan Santana sweepstakes, SI.com has learned.

It isn't known what the Mets' chances are to beat the favored Red Sox for Santana, but the Twins appear to be at least listening to the new overtures.http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/12/05/santana.update/index.htmlMeanwhile, the Mets have been aggressive in trying to get back into the mix, and while a Twins person suggested days ago that he saw the Mets as an extreme longshot unless Jose Reyes was included, it appears they are at least listening to proposals that don't include Reyes. Mets people have made Reyes and third baseman David Wright untouchable, but they will consider dealing any of their other young players.

The Angels say they aren't involved, and rumors that the Dodgers may jump in couldn't be confirmed. However, it is clear the Mets are still trying for Santana.

The Mets have two excellent outfield prospects, Carlos Gomez and Fernando Martinez, and a handful of pitching prospects, led by Kevin Mulvey and Mike P

[furcalchick]

i'm starting to think that hanley ramirez should demand a trade to get out of that dumpy franchise, who has a yankee obsessed owner. and yes, he's still ranting.

[zioxide]

i'm starting to think that hanley ramirez should demand a trade to get out of that dumpy franchise, who has a yankee obsessed owner. and yes, he's still ranting.

yay lets trade and get hanley back.. then kick lugo out the door

[fotografica]

. The Yankees had the best farm system in the late 90's and did not need any outside help.

And they've won how many WS since then??:rolleyes: http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g301/Captainandcoke/jerkit.gif
If you're going to try and tell me that the Sox would have won the Series without Youk or Pedroia,try again http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g301/Captainandcoke/jerkit.gif

And before any before any of the Red Sox or Yankees haters chime in about trying to take over a thread....>>>>http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g301/Captainandcoke/jerkit.gif

[MacNut]

And they've won how many WS since then??:rolleyes:

If you're going to try and tell me that the Sox would have won the Series without Youk or Pedroia,try again Did you even bother to read anything I said.The argument was about home grown talent, not bought talent. If you are going strictly by home grown the Yankees did that in 96,98,99.2000. If you want to argue that everything since has been bought fine. But don't diminish what the Yankees did in the 90's. Compare that to how the Red Sox won they needed outside help. Don't deny that fact. I would say the Yankees did pretty well then compared to what teams are spending now and not getting any return. The Red Sox won 2, great. Lets see them do it without the big stars, wait they can't. They needed Beckett and Schilling. The Yankees had the best farm system in the late 90's and did not need any outside help.I didn't say anything about the farm system after 2001 did I. It is better now but it is not what it once was.

[fotografica]

Did you even bother to read anything I said..

No,I didn't...I usually tail off after the first few words or first sentence.I'm not into reading the rantings of a Yankee appologist/rump swab..

[MacNut]

No,I didn't...I usually tail off after the first few words or first sentence.I'm not into reading the rantings of a Yankee appologist/rump swab..Merry Christmas to you too.:p

[zioxide]

Merry Christmas to you too.:p

better watch out, some women might get offended by your signature :eek:

lmao.

[MacNut]

better watch out, some women might get offended by your signature :eek:

lmao.Only in Australia.:p

[Silencio]

Dodgers sign Andruw Jones reach an agreement on a 2-year, $36 million deal.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Ah1oh9As483U6UwKC6l.8O3PCsQF?slug=ap-dodgers-jones&prov=ap&type=lgns

That's some serious overpayage IMO.

Speaking of overpayage, the Giants are considering trading Tim Lincecum to the Blue Jays for Alex Rios. Rios is an impressive young hitter, but I'd have to say the Jays would be getting the better of this theoretical deal. Lincecum could be really special...

[goodtimes5]

Dodgers sign Andruw Jones reach an agreement on a 2-year, $36 million deal.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Ah1oh9As483U6UwKC6l.8O3PCsQF?slug=ap-dodgers-jones&prov=ap&type=lgns

That's some serious overpayage IMO.

Speaking of overpayage, the Giants are considering trading Tim Lincecum to the Blue Jays for Alex Rios. Rios is an impressive young hitter, but I'd have to say the Jays would be getting the better of this theoretical deal. Lincecum could be really special...

The Andruw deal is an outstanding deal for a player with Boras as an agent. The most significant part of this contract is the length; only two years. Cuts the risk to a minimum, and Andruw could very well earn his $18 million while I doubt Hunter will even begin to earn his $18 million.

The Giants would get completely ripped off by that trade. Sad thing is that this trade is a very legitimate possibility with Sabean at the helm.

[IJ Reilly]

The Andruw deal is an outstanding deal for a player with Boras as an agent. The most significant part of this contract is the length; only two years. Cuts the risk to a minimum, and Andruw could very well earn his $18 million while I doubt Hunter will even begin to earn his $18 million.

He wasn't at the top of my personal choice list, but I do believe we're going to like that gold glove in center instead of the rag arm of Pierre. Dollars aside, the two year deal is good for both Jones and the Dodgers. Jones is going to have a lot to prove over the next two years, and I look forward to him trying. But I am afraid this means that Kemp is expendable.

[aloofman]

He wasn't at the top of my personal choice list, but I do believe we're going to like that gold glove in center instead of the rag arm of Pierre. Dollars aside, the two year deal is good for both Jones and the Dodgers. Jones is going to have a lot to prove over the next two years, and I look forward to him trying. But I am afraid this means that Kemp is expendable.

I agree that it's overpaying. And his decline in production the last couple years is troubling. But the short deal means they won't be paying for too long, and it gives Jones a lot of motivation because he'll be a free agent again in only two years.

I'm a little tired of hearing about all of Jones' GGs, since he clearly isn't as good in the field as he used to be. Having said that, he's still a far better fielder than He Who I Shall Not Name. Said player is now the expendable one, in my opinion, although Colletti would have to swallow a lot of pride to trade him. But yes, more likely that Kemp will be sent off, unfortunately. If they must trade a young outfielder, then I'm OK with losing Ethier if they get decent quality in return.

[furcalchick]

He wasn't at the top of my personal choice list, but I do believe we're going to like that gold glove in center instead of the rag arm of Pierre. Dollars aside, the two year deal is good for both Jones and the Dodgers. Jones is going to have a lot to prove over the next two years, and I look forward to him trying. But I am afraid this means that Kemp is expendable.

you'll be 100% satisfied with his defense, he'll make plays easy where most struggle, and shown us with his amazing plays why he is probably the best defensive centerfielder since willie mays.

his offense is another story. his bat is very inconsistent, and with the exception of two years, isn't anything to brag about. his stance is all screwy, and he easily goes into extended slumps (2-30 like), and seems to swing for the fences too often instead of listening to his batting coach and doing that. if you can fix his bat away from the horrible offensive output he had last year, you'll love him more than dl drew.

[aloofman]

if you can fix his bat away from the horrible offensive output he had last year, you'll love him more than dl drew.

That's not exactly a ringing endorsement. Drew was never lovable even when he was hitting. :rolleyes:

[goodtimes5]

But I am afraid this means that Kemp is expendable.

As a Giants fan, it makes me outstandingly happy that the Dodgers would trade away the next big thing.

[aloofman]

As a Giants fan, it makes me outstandingly happy that the Dodgers would trade away the next big thing.

Speaking of potential mistakes...

From Tom Verducci in SI (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/tom_verducci/12/04/tigers.trade1/index.html):

A true hot stove winter

On Nov. 19, 1993, the Los Angeles Dodgers traded a 5-foot-11, 22-year-old righthander to Montreal to get one of the best young hitters in the game. Delino DeShields was 24 years old and already had 575 hits. It was a fascinating, pure talent-for-talent trade not driven by salary concerns. The Dodgers were worried that the kid pitcher might not be too durable. The kid pitcher, Pedro Martinez, turned out okay for Montreal.

Now check out a trade conversation that occurred Monday between San Francisco and Toronto: 5-foot-11, 23-year-old righthander Tim Lincecum for one of the best young hitters in the game, Alex Rios, who is 26 years old and has -- get this -- exactly 575 hits.

As of Tuesday night, the Jays were still waiting to hear again from the Giants. San Francisco won't move Matt Cain because it regards him as more durable in the long run. It is tempted to move Lincecum only because its lineup and system are so devoid of impact hitters. The Jays could wind up with possibly the best pure stuff overall of any rotation in the league (Roy Halladay, A.J. Burnett, Lincecum, Dustin McGowan, Shaun Marcum), or they could shop Burnett for a big outfield bat to replace Rios.

We've already seen the Twins move pitcher Matt Garza, 24, for outfielder Delmon Young, 22. The Giants are likely to have cold feet about moving Lincecum because his stuff is so electric -- Pedroesque at times. But thanks to underwhelming free agent choices, an old-fashioned hot stove winter with talent-for-talent trades may be back in vogue.

[goodtimes5]

Speaking of potential mistakes...

From Tom Verducci in SI (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/tom_verducci/12/04/tigers.trade1/index.html):

A true hot stove winter

On Nov. 19, 1993, the Los Angeles Dodgers traded a 5-foot-11, 22-year-old righthander to Montreal to get one of the best young hitters in the game. Delino DeShields was 24 years old and already had 575 hits. It was a fascinating, pure talent-for-talent trade not driven by salary concerns. The Dodgers were worried that the kid pitcher might not be too durable. The kid pitcher, Pedro Martinez, turned out okay for Montreal.

Now check out a trade conversation that occurred Monday between San Francisco and Toronto: 5-foot-11, 23-year-old righthander Tim Lincecum for one of the best young hitters in the game, Alex Rios, who is 26 years old and has -- get this -- exactly 575 hits.

As of Tuesday night, the Jays were still waiting to hear again from the Giants. San Francisco won't move Matt Cain because it regards him as more durable in the long run. It is tempted to move Lincecum only because its lineup and system are so devoid of impact hitters. The Jays could wind up with possibly the best pure stuff overall of any rotation in the league (Roy Halladay, A.J. Burnett, Lincecum, Dustin McGowan, Shaun Marcum), or they could shop Burnett for a big outfield bat to replace Rios.

We've already seen the Twins move pitcher Matt Garza, 24, for outfielder Delmon Young, 22. The Giants are likely to have cold feet about moving Lincecum because his stuff is so electric -- Pedroesque at times. But thanks to underwhelming free agent choices, an old-fashioned hot stove winter with talent-for-talent trades may be back in vogue.

I was in fear for a couple of days from this trade, but the Giants just traded a young reliever with nice potential but horrible control for Matsui from the Yankees. The Giants have too many OFs as is, so HOPEFULLY, this stops any trade of Lincecum/Cain for Rios.

It was a nice trade in itself. The aftereffects of the trade are more significant though. If Lincecum or Cain are ever traded away from the Giants, I will no longer be a fan.

[IJ Reilly]

As a Giants fan, it makes me outstandingly happy that the Dodgers would trade away the next big thing.

I hope they don't trade Kemp, but if it happens it really does matter what they get in return -- and of course as much as every Dodger fan would like to believe that Kemp is the Next Big Thing, the kid is still pretty rough and we don't know where he'll be in a year or two. A heck of a lot of guys with great talent go nowhere because they can't learn discipline.

[MacNut]

I was in fear for a couple of days from this trade, but the Giants just traded a young reliever with nice potential but horrible control for Matsui from the Yankees. The Giants have too many OFs as is, so HOPEFULLY, this stops any trade of Lincecum/Cain for Rios.

It was a nice trade in itself. The aftereffects of the trade are more significant though. If Lincecum or Cain are ever traded away from the Giants, I will no longer be a fan.I don't see anything about a trade, just an offer.3:45 p.m., from Jayson Stark
• A source says the Giants did call the Yankees about Hideki Matsui. They're offering their starting pitchers (Tim Lincecum, Matt Cain or Noah Lowry) for bats, but they are just exploring to see if there is a match. Matsui has a full no-trade clause, and it isn't known whether he would waive it to go to San Francisco or anywhere else.NASHVILLE, Tenn. -- The Giants, who are desperately seeking offense, have inquired about Yankees outfielder Hideki Matsui's availability. Matsui has a no-trade clause, so if there's a match there, the Yankees first would have to get his approval.

The Giants have a lot of good young pitchers whose names have come up in trades, with Matt Cain and Tim Lincecum at the top of the list, followed by Noah Lowry and Jonathan Sanchez. The Yankees, who have said they are out of the Johan Santana sweepstakes, would still like to upgrade their pitching staff.

The Giants had been talking to the Blue Jays about Alex Rios, but Toronto asked for either Cain or Lincecum, who have been called virtually untouchable by the Giants.

The Yankees are talking to other teams about pitching help and have had some talks with the Pirates about Damaso Marte and John Grabow. Marte was once a Yankee.http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/12/06/giants.matsui/index.html

It also looks like the Twins might hold on to Santana and try to sign him.

[aloofman]

I was in fear for a couple of days from this trade, but the Giants just traded a young reliever with nice potential but horrible control for Matsui from the Yankees. The Giants have too many OFs as is, so HOPEFULLY, this stops any trade of Lincecum/Cain for Rios.

It was a nice trade in itself. The aftereffects of the trade are more significant though. If Lincecum or Cain are ever traded away from the Giants, I will no longer be a fan.

The impression I get is that the Giants realize how weak their Bonds-less lineup will be in 2008, but none of their many current outfielders has a good bat. There's a real possibility that they could even have a worse offense than the 2003 Dodgers, which is really saying something. On the other hand, if pitching is their one strength, then trading Cain or Lincecum now might not help.

And like IJ said, you gotta be careful about getting attached to young prospects and popular clubhouse guys. The one comforting thought for me from the Pedro/DeShields trade is that there really was no sign at the time that Pedro was going to be a superstar. But Paul Konerko DID look pretty good and they traded him anyway. Remember when Carlos Perez was going to be a bad-ass? And Wilson Alvarez? You never know. Sometimes you'll steal a young player from another team, sometimes you'll get taken. As good as Lincecum looks now, he's put up no better numbers than a thousand other good, young pitchers of the past that didn't go far. There was a time when Pedro Astacio was going to be the Dodgers' future ace. Or Ismael Valdez. Or Chan Ho Park. Or Darren Dreifort.

* By the way, the Dodgers chose Dreifort with the second overall pick in the draft that year. Seattle got the first overall pick because they won a coin flip. They used it to choose Alex Rodriguez. Every scout that year considered Rodriguez the best overall and Dreifort the best pitcher in that draft, so both choices were no-brainers. What might have been... *sigh* :rolleyes:

[Sayhey]

The impression I get is that the Giants realize how weak their Bonds-less lineup will be in 2008, but none of their many current outfielders has a good bat. There's a real possibility that they could even have a worse offense than the 2003 Dodgers, which is really saying something. On the other hand, if pitching is their one strength, then trading Cain or Lincecum now might not help.

And like IJ said, you gotta be careful about getting attached to young prospects and popular clubhouse guys. The one comforting thought for me from the Pedro/DeShields trade is that there really was no sign at the time that Pedro was going to be a superstar. But Paul Konerko DID look pretty good and they traded him anyway. Remember when Carlos Perez was going to be a bad-ass? And Wilson Alvarez? You never know. Sometimes you'll steal a young player from another team, sometimes you'll get taken. As good as Lincecum looks now, he's put up no better numbers than a thousand other good, young pitchers of the past that didn't go far. There was a time when Pedro Astacio was going to be the Dodgers' future ace. Or Ismael Valdez. Or Chan Ho Park. Or Darren Dreifort.

* By the way, the Dodgers chose Dreifort with the second overall pick in the draft that year. Seattle got the first overall pick because they won a coin flip. They used it to choose Alex Rodriguez. Every scout that year considered Rodriguez the best overall and Dreifort the best pitcher in that draft, so both choices were no-brainers. What might have been... *sigh* :rolleyes:

I'd put it slightly differently, aloofman. The Giants do have a few good bats in the lineup (one in the outfield) but they have no legit 3-4-5 hitters. Winn and Molina are fine hitting in the 2 hole (Winn) or the 6 or 7 hole (Winn or Molina) but they are overmatched in the heart of the lineup - mostly because they lack the power one expects in those positions. That doesn't mean they are punch and judy hitters, but 15 homeruns per year, or there about, doesn't scare a whole lot of people.

Now, the Giants might try modeling themselves after the Dodger teams of the 60s, but if they do, they had better hope Brian Wilson is the next Ron Perranoski. Without a competent closer they are going to continue to blow games they should win at an alarming rate. Fortunately, Wilson might just be better that Perranoski. They're going to also have to have some of the young speedsters show they can get on with some regularity. My prediction today - last place 15-20 games out while leading the league in one-run losses.

btw, I like Brian Sabean, but if he trades Tim Lincecum or Matt Cain I'm heating up the tar and plucking the feathers myself. And Matsui would be great, as long as Timmy and Matt aren't involved.

[MacNut]

Matsui's bat has slowed down, after his injury 2 years ago he isn't the same hitter he once was, and he is getting older.

[Sayhey]

Matsui's bat has slowed down, after his injury 2 years ago he isn't the same hitter he once was, and he is getting older.
If the Yanks want to just give him to the Giants to get rid of him, that's ok with me. ;)

[MacNut]

If the Yanks want to just give him to the Giants to get rid of him, that's ok with me. ;)Well he does have a no trade clause so your gonna have to ask him first.;)

[aloofman]

Now, the Giants might try modeling themselves after the Dodger teams of the 60s, but if they do, they had better hope Brian Wilson is the next Ron Perranoski. Without a competent closer they are going to continue to blow games they should win at an alarming rate. Fortunately, Wilson might just be better that Perranoski. They're going to also have to have some of the young speedsters show they can get on with some regularity. My prediction today - last place 15-20 games out while leading the league in one-run losses.


You're probably right about the lack of a closer. Those 2003 Dodgers won 85 games while leading the league in ERA and having the worst offense in the league. (The middle of the order: Fred "Oh NOW He's Finally Done" McGriff, hobbled and streaky Brian Jordan, and a Shawn Green that hit doubles instead of home runs.) They had the best team ERA in years and possibly the best bullpen of all time, with Gagne mowing down every batter he saw. And they STILL finished 15 games out.

I don't think the mid-1960s Dodgers are a model that can win in this era. The rules were more pitcher-friendly back then. And when Koufax-Drysdale is half of your four-man rotation, you already have a leg up on other teams. (I think Johnson-Schilling on the 2001 D'backs are the only starter tandem that's compared since then.) It's possible that a Giants reliever could step up and surprise everyone, what with bullpen arms being so fickle. But I think it's going to be a couple of years of rebuilding.

Meanwhile, I have nagging concerns that the 2008 Dodgers will underachieve again. Unless they land a Haren or Bedard, they're an arm injury away from a repeat of 2007. I also worry that Kent and Garciaparra will get too many at-bats even if they decline further. Isn't it great that we're fretting about these things in December? We're months away from seeing anyone play and already saddled with lots of baseball baggage. :D

[IJ Reilly]

Meanwhile, I have nagging concerns that the 2008 Dodgers will underachieve again. Unless they land a Haren or Bedard, they're an arm injury away from a repeat of 2007. I also worry that Kent and Garciaparra will get too many at-bats even if they decline further. Isn't it great that we're fretting about these things in December? We're months away from seeing anyone play and already saddled with lots of baseball baggage. :D

Hang on a second -- you'll get no argument about Garciaparra's terrible 2007 season, but Kent was better in 2007 than he was in 2006. He led the team in average, home runs and RBIs. After the '06 season I wondered if he had any more gas left in him -- now I think he's probably good for another year. As for who deserves to get at-bats, that's now Joe Torre's call. Hope springs eternal, eh?

[aloofman]

Hang on a second -- you'll get no argument about Garciaparra's terrible 2007 season, but Kent was better in 2007 than he was in 2006. He led the team in average, home runs and RBIs. After the '06 season I wondered if he had any more gas left in him -- now I think he's probably good for another year. As for who deserves to get at-bats, that's now Joe Torre's call. Hope springs eternal, eh?

Kent's hitting hasn't slacked off as much as expected so far, but his fielding and baserunning have really gone downhill. At this point I don't expect him to reach many balls that aren't hit right to him. And I would submit that leading the 2007 Dodgers in hitting isn't the impressive feat that it sounds!

You're right though that Kent is looking like one of those players that might keep earning a lineup spot up until he retires. I'm just not expecting him to right now.

[IJ Reilly]

Kent's hitting hasn't slacked off as much as expected so far, but his fielding and baserunning have really gone downhill. At this point I don't expect him to reach many balls that aren't hit right to him. And I would submit that leading the 2007 Dodgers in hitting isn't the impressive feat that it sounds!

You're right though that Kent is looking like one of those players that might keep earning a lineup spot up until he retires. I'm just not expecting him to right now.

The Dodgers didn't have a problem with team batting average last year, or even with run production particularly. Anybody with a .300 average and 20 home runs isn't exactly a shabby performer, on any team. At the end of 2006 I though Kent might be used up, but he started '07 in better condition and he was DL-free throughout. He had a good year -- which is why I think he believes he earned griping rights. Barring the unforeseen, I think Kent starts next season, with Abreu getting into a lot of games especially in late innings.

[Sayhey]

You're probably right about the lack of a closer. Those 2003 Dodgers won 85 games while leading the league in ERA and having the worst offense in the league. (The middle of the order: Fred "Oh NOW He's Finally Done" McGriff, hobbled and streaky Brian Jordan, and a Shawn Green that hit doubles instead of home runs.) They had the best team ERA in years and possibly the best bullpen of all time, with Gagne mowing down every batter he saw. And they STILL finished 15 games out.

I don't think the mid-1960s Dodgers are a model that can win in this era. The rules were more pitcher-friendly back then. And when Koufax-Drysdale is half of your four-man rotation, you already have a leg up on other teams. (I think Johnson-Schilling on the 2001 D'backs are the only starter tandem that's compared since then.) It's possible that a Giants reliever could step up and surprise everyone, what with bullpen arms being so fickle. But I think it's going to be a couple of years of rebuilding.
I do think it is possible to win with less emphasis on hitting and more on pitching and defense. Having said that, I think the Giants are not only not there yet in the pitching rotation (two hall of famers is an awful high standard to compare second and third year players to, no matter their talent,) but more importantly the team isn't even comparable to the 60's Dodger teams in terms of offense. The Giants need some players to bounce back (Durham and Roberts) and at least some young players to step up and show they can really play in the majors (Frandsen, Lewis, Davis, Ormeier, Schierholtz) for the team to even get to mediocre as an offense. Mediocre would work with their pitching, but there has to be improvements or the season is lost.

With the bullpen, I like some of the young arms and a few of the older ones. I think Wilson is the best reliever I've seen in the Giants system since Robb Nen blew out his arm. Doesn't mean he will be the Giants' version of Houston Street, but at this point I'm thinking he has a good chance.

Meanwhile, I have nagging concerns that the 2008 Dodgers will underachieve again. Unless they land a Haren or Bedard, they're an arm injury away from a repeat of 2007. I also worry that Kent and Garciaparra will get too many at-bats even if they decline further. Isn't it great that we're fretting about these things in December? We're months away from seeing anyone play and already saddled with lots of baseball baggage. :D

I think the Dodgers have done a very good thing with the signing of Jones. He gives them the one great power bat they have been lacking. A true cleanup hitter. I'm betting that his struggles of last year aren't the start of a trend, but if they are, the Dodgers are on the hook for only two years.

But I think the Dodgers' chances are really all about the health of the starting rotation. If everyone stays healthy, and you get anything like a full season out of Schmidt, I think the Dodgers are the favorites in the division.

[aloofman]

....but more importantly the team isn't even comparable to the 60's Dodger teams in terms of offense.

The 1964-66 teams were the epitome of little ball, but most people forget that in 1962 the Dodgers scored the most runs in the NL even though it was the first year in Dodger Stadium. I think you can chalk most of that up to Wills running wild and Tommie Davis having a career year driving in runs though.

I think the Dodgers have done a very good thing with the signing of Jones. He gives them the one great power bat they have been lacking. A true cleanup hitter. I'm betting that his struggles of last year aren't the start of a trend, but if they are, the Dodgers are on the hook for only two years.

Even though it's overpaying in terms of salary, I like the Jones signing too. I think he will hit better this year, and that barring injury, he'll play hard toward free agency again in 2009. My main worry is that Jones will probably displace Kemp or Ethier from the outfield and not Pierre. But that's a separate decision from signing Jones. Teams took extra bases all season long against Pierre, which shouldn't happen nearly as often now.

But I think the Dodgers' chances are really all about the health of the starting rotation. If everyone stays healthy, and you get anything like a full season out of Schmidt, I think the Dodgers are the favorites in the division.

I like their chances. It will be interesting to see if Arizona and Colorado are going to keep improving. It seems likely that at least one of them will regress slightly, but both teams have a lot of young talent. The Padres seem to once again have the pitching and defense to compete no matter how well they hit.

[IJ Reilly]

I like their chances. It will be interesting to see if Arizona and Colorado are going to keep improving. It seems likely that at least one of them will regress slightly, but both teams have a lot of young talent. The Padres seem to once again have the pitching and defense to compete no matter how well they hit.

I'm not so confident (barring additional trades or signings). The division will be up for grabs -- we'll be starting with four competitive teams this year, which we didn't think we had in the division at the beginning of 2007.

[Sayhey]

I like their chances. It will be interesting to see if Arizona and Colorado are going to keep improving. It seems likely that at least one of them will regress slightly, but both teams have a lot of young talent. The Padres seem to once again have the pitching and defense to compete no matter how well they hit.

I can't believe Colorado can repeat that kind of finish next year. They're a great young hitting team with still suspect pitching in the starting rotation. Arizona was one of the worst teams in the league in scoring runs (I'd have to look it up but they had let up more runs than the scored for most of the year) but they won an incredible number of one-run victories. Not likely to happen again. Both teams are young so they may well get better, but I like the Dodgers and the Padres as the top two finishers.

Not that I don't hope the Giants will surprise everyone and win it by 20 games going away. It's just that such delusional thinking is harder to sustain as the years go by. Perhaps I need to drink more Anchor Steam.

[MacNut]

NEW YORK -- Moving to shore up their weak middle relief, the New York Yankees reached a preliminary agreement on a $3.75 million, one-year contract with right-hander LaTroy Hawkins.

Hawkins' deal is subject to him passing a physical, a baseball official familiar with the negotiations said Sunday, speaking on condition of anonymity because the contract has not been finalized.

The right-hander, who will be 35 on Dec. 21, was 2-5 with a 3.42 ERA last season for the Colorado Rockies. He made $3.25 million and Colorado declined a $3.75 million option, choosing to pay a $250,000 buyout.

New York's middle relievers struggled last season, with Kyle Farnsworth and Luis Vizcaino pitching inconsistently for long stretches and the Yankees converting Joba Chamberlain, a starter in the minors, into a reliever for the final two months of the season. Chamberlain became Mariano Rivera's primary setup man, but New York plans on including Chamberlain in its starting rotation next year.

Yankees general manager Brian Cashman said he hoped to re-sign Vizcaino, who on Friday declined the team's offer of salary arbitration.

Hawkins pitched for the Minnesota Twins from 1995-2003, then moved on to the Chicago Cubs, San Francisco Giants, Baltimore Orioles and the Rockies. He made five postseason appearances this year, allowing one run and one hit in five innings.

His decision to sign with the Yankees was first reported by foxsports.com.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3147959

[MacNut]

In the coming days "The Report" will be released.With the highly anticipated Mitchell report on performance-enhancing drugs in baseball expected to be released within the coming days, scores of baseball employees who were interviewed by former Sen. George Mitchell's investigators said that the inquiry has been critically hampered by investigative missteps, Mitchell's close personal ties in the industry and the longstanding fracture between baseball's owners and players' union. These baseball insiders offer an unprecedented and unfiltered view of the 20-month investigation.

Club executives are nervous that Mitchell will be unsparing in his assessment of their role in enabling the game's steroid culture, while team trainers and strength coaches feel the Mitchell team explicitly pressured them to "guess" about steroid use by specific players. The aim, say trainers and strength coaches, was to produce a report heavy on high-profile names but low on solutions.

The concerns regarding the investigation, these sources say, raise the level of intrigue and anxiety about what Mitchell ultimately will reveal. If he produces a powerful, comprehensive report, they believe these anxieties can be assuaged. But if the report fails to reach that standard, they say it will be clear that the obstacles the investigation encountered from its start were impossible to overcome. Accompanying that intrigue -- and perhaps because of that intrigue -- is a sense that not only will Mitchell's document fail to please everyone, it might fail to please anyone. If that happens, the report -- instead of providing an endpoint to baseball's steroids era -- will instead serve as another example of the game's inability to come to terms with the issue.More reading.....http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3142651

[IJ Reilly]

Off the fence, finally. I hope Joe Torre has better luck managing "Mr. Personality."

Kent will return with $9-million option
Jones passes physical and will be introduced today.

Jeff Kent has postponed retirement and will play out the final year of his contract with the Dodgers, his agent said Tuesday night.

Jeff Klein wrote in an e-mail that the 39-year-old Kent has informed Dodgers General Manager Ned Colletti of his decision. Colletti confirmed that he had "a thorough conversation" with Kent over the phone before last week's winter meetings.

Klein wrote in the e-mail that the second baseman "is looking forward to returning for his fourth season with the Dodgers. He is actively pursuing his customary and rigorous off-season conditioning and weightlifting program, and is very focused on helping his team win the World Series this year."

Colletti and Manager Joe Torre sounded fairly optimistic in recent months that Kent would be back. Torre, who is also represented by Klein, said he received a phone message from Kent upon being hired by the Dodgers last month.

Kent was slowed by a strained hamstring over the second half of last season, but finished batting .302 with a team-best 20 home runs. He also had 79 runs batted in.

Kent has hit .290 with 365 home runs over 16 seasons.

...

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-dodrep12dec12,1,1786682.story

[Naimfan]

Off the fence, finally. I hope Joe Torre has better luck managing "Mr. Personality."


IJ--

Torre seems like just the right type of manager for Kent. Torre will simply expect him to be professional, and from the news stories of him I've read he won't be shy about pulling Kent aside if necessary and explaining the reality of the situation to him. Obviously that's no guarantee, but personality-wise it seems like it's a good match.

The Dodgers look like they are potentially a terrific team next year--I'd say they're the favorite for the NL West, which really does look like it will be a dogfight.

[IJ Reilly]

IJ--

Torre seems like just the right type of manager for Kent. Torre will simply expect him to be professional, and from the news stories of him I've read he won't be shy about pulling Kent aside if necessary and explaining the reality of the situation to him. Obviously that's no guarantee, but personality-wise it seems like it's a good match.

The Dodgers look like they are potentially a terrific team next year--I'd say they're the favorite for the NL West, which really does look like it will be a dogfight.

I hope so, on both counts. I don't know if Grady Little could have done more to keep Kent from mouthing off to the press like he did, but I expect Torre will bring instant respect to the table and forestall any public complaining when the going gets rough, as it always does.

I expected the Dodgers to be the favorites in the division last season, and those expectations were justified right into July. Now the division is so much more competitive, and the Dodgers have made so few upgrades, that I can't get my hopes up too high yet. The way things stand now, all the pieces need to fall into place -- and that rarely happens.

[Naimfan]

I hope so, on both counts. I don't know if Grady Little could have done more to keep Kent from mouthing off to the press like he did, but I expect Torre will bring instant respect to the table and forestall any public complaining when the going gets rough, as it always does.

I expected the Dodgers to be the favorites in the division last season, and those expectations were justified right into July. Now the division is so much more competitive, and the Dodgers have made so few upgrades, that I can't get my hopes up too high yet. The way things stand now, all the pieces need to fall into place -- and that rarely happens.

Well, they may not have made many upgrades, but they made one huge one in Andruw Jones. And I have to think Kemp and Ethier will continue to get better--I saw them a couple of times and they looked GOOD. It may be nostalgia, but I have to think Nomar will bounce back--perhaps not to the numbers when he was in Boston, but improve nevertheless (not to mention staying healthy!). So, granted, some things have to fall in place, but sometimes they do--like the Rockies' run at the end of last season. If you had told people that would happen, even in August, you'd have been laughed out of the room.

Offhand, I'd probably guess the division order like this: Dodgers, Padres, Rockies, Diamondbacks, Giants.

[gauchogolfer]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3151849

Baltimore Orioles shortstop Miguel Tejada finally got his wish for a change of scenery, as he was traded to the Houston Astros on Wednesday.

In return for the four-time All-Star, the Orioles will get outfielder Luke Scott, pitchers Matt Albers, Troy Patton and Dennis Sarfate, and third baseman Michael Costanzo.

The blockbuster trade was first reported by The Baltimore Sun.

I'm an Astros fan, and I'm not sure if Tejada is still worth 5 players, but I appreciate the team making a move to shake things up. Hopefully he'll get comfortable with the short porch in left.

Edit: I'm not sure where this leaves Loretta or Adam Everett, but I have to think Tejada is a major upgrade. Maybe they'll package them for more pitching or a good 3B...

Kaz Matsui and Tejada up the middle is looking pretty good.

[MacNut]

NEW YORK -- George Mitchell called a news conference for Thursday to announce the results of his 20-month investigation into drug use in baseball.

Bud Selig does not plan to attend the 2 p.m. ET news conference at a Manhattan hotel a few blocks from the commissioner's office.http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3151479

[IJ Reilly]

Well, they may not have made many upgrades, but they made one huge one in Andruw Jones. And I have to think Kemp and Ethier will continue to get better--I saw them a couple of times and they looked GOOD. It may be nostalgia, but I have to think Nomar will bounce back--perhaps not to the numbers when he was in Boston, but improve nevertheless (not to mention staying healthy!). So, granted, some things have to fall in place, but sometimes they do--like the Rockies' run at the end of last season. If you had told people that would happen, even in August, you'd have been laughed out of the room.

Offhand, I'd probably guess the division order like this: Dodgers, Padres, Rockies, Diamondbacks, Giants.

I have to like your predictions, but I'm keeping my powder dry for now. Jones has to return to form to be a real impact player. Kemp or Ethier may well be traded. Nomar could bounce back, but he's likely to become a glorified pitch hitter this season no matter what else happens. Schmidt has to come back from surgery, or they have a big hole in the rotation. So many more question marks than we started with last season. If they'd found that big bat at third, I'd feel so much more confident!

[Silencio]

Giants sign CF Aaron Rowand for 5 years, $60 million.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-giants-rowand&prov=ap&type=lgns

I'm not terribly happy with this one. While it may be better than trading a good young arm for Matsui's bad knees and high salary, I think Rowand pretty much maxxed out his potential at the plate last year, plus he's vastly overrated defensively IMO. I highly doubt he'll hit .300 with 25 HR for the Giants. If he hit fifth for the Giants that would be all well and good, but they need to acquire two better bats than him to make that plan workable...

[aloofman]

I think Rowand pretty much maxxed out his potential at the plate last year, plus he's vastly overrated defensively IMO. I highly doubt he'll hit .300 with 25 HR for the Giants.

I agree. He's going from an extreme hitter's ballpark in Philly to a pitcher's park in SF. No way he repeats his 2007 numbers in 2008. I don't think he's as good as Torii Hunter, who also figures to decline before his big, new contract is over. It sounds like a desperation move to me.

[IJ Reilly]

Ouch. I would have been thrilled if the Dodgers had made this deal.

[Silencio]

Ouch. I would have been thrilled if the Dodgers had made this deal.

Yeah, in comparison to the Hunter and Jones deals, the Rowand deal doesn't look sooooo bad. And at least they didn't have to give up Tim Lincecum to get him.

But in the end, Rowand is a complementary player, not a guy you build a team around. All well and good, but we'll have to see what else Sabean can do -- at least he went on record stating he would not trade Cain or Lincecum, but he doesn't have many other bargaining chips aside from more pitching prospects. Jonathan Sanchez could turn out to be a very good pitcher, but apparently the Yanks turned their nose up at him. Gotta be a reasonable upgrade to first base out there somewhere...

[Naimfan]

Any thoughts on Guillen to Kansas City? I'm kinda scratching my head on that one. Good player, but it strikes me as more of a move to placate the fans--"Look, we're doing something!"

That said, I don't know much about the Royals, so thoughts welcomed.

And Rowand got 5 years/$60 million? Wow.

[MacNut]

I thought the Royals have a lot of talented young kids just nobody to teach them.

[zioxide]

There are reports going around that one of the first names on the list is Clemens.. who will now be known as the Roid Rocket.

[IJ Reilly]

Separate thread on the Mitchell Report started:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=400388

[Naimfan]

Separate thread on the Mitchell Report started:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=400388

THANK YOU!

[IJ Reilly]

Yeah, in comparison to the Hunter and Jones deals, the Rowand deal doesn't look sooooo bad. And at least they didn't have to give up Tim Lincecum to get him.

But in the end, Rowand is a complementary player, not a guy you build a team around. All well and good, but we'll have to see what else Sabean can do -- at least he went on record stating he would not trade Cain or Lincecum, but he doesn't have many other bargaining chips aside from more pitching prospects. Jonathan Sanchez could turn out to be a very good pitcher, but apparently the Yanks turned their nose up at him. Gotta be a reasonable upgrade to first base out there somewhere...

And Rowand got 5 years/$60 million? Wow.

I guess I've learned not be shocked by free agent contracts since they're subject to constant inflation. Rowand is a solid player, perhaps not a franchise guy, but a player any team would be pleased to have I suspect. For somebody of that caliber, $12 million a year isn't shocking.

[Naimfan]

I guess I've learned not be shocked by free agent contracts since they're subject to constant inflation. Rowand is a solid player, perhaps not a franchise guy, but a player any team would be pleased to have I suspect. For somebody of that caliber, $12 million a year isn't shocking.

Yep, on further reflection I agree with you. Oh to have stayed in baseball!

So what else can the Giants do? They've said their best trading chips are not available--and it seems like they are in desperate need (still) of more hitting.

[aloofman]

Yeah, in comparison to the Hunter and Jones deals, the Rowand deal doesn't look sooooo bad.


I disagree. I think a short-term deal for Jones is better than a long contract for Rowand. I think the ballpark switch will reveal that -- by centerfielder standards -- Rowand is an average hitter. On the other hand, it's a bit unfair to make the contract comparison because Rowand's value went up after the other two were signed. This looks like a deal that the Giants felt like they had to make.

I guess I've learned not be shocked by free agent contracts since they're subject to constant inflation. Rowand is a solid player, perhaps not a franchise guy, but a player any team would be pleased to have I suspect. For somebody of that caliber, $12 million a year isn't shocking.

Did you ever think you'd see the day that a good (not great) player was making $12 million per? Crazy times.

[IJ Reilly]

Did you ever think you'd see the day that a good (not great) player was making $12 million per? Crazy times.

It's been going in this direction steadily for years now, so I suppose the answer has to be yes. Revenues grow, but the talent pool doesn't, making higher salaries for free agents virtually inevitable.

[IJ Reilly]

Dodgers reel in Kuroda with contract

LOS ANGELES -- The Dodgers won the bidding war for Japanese right-handed starter Hiroki Kuroda, reaching an agreement Saturday on a three-year, $35.3 million contract. He was formally introduced at Dodger Stadium in a Sunday afternoon news conference.

"Kuroda was arguably the best starting pitcher on the free-agent market and will be a great addition to our staff," said general manager Ned Colletti. "There was a lot of competition for a pitcher of his ilk, and we're thrilled that he's chosen to become a Dodger and to make Los Angeles his home."

Kuroda, 32, will join a rotation that already features Brad Penny, Derek Lowe and Chad Billingsley. The fifth starter will come from a group of candidates that includes Jason Schmidt and Esteban Loaiza.

Kuroda, who will become the seventh native of Japan to play for the Dodgers, was the Dodgers' primary pitching target this offseason, and his acquisition follows by a week the signing of free-agent outfielder Andruw Jones.

The Dodgers have now addressed their two biggest needs -- a power bat and a legitimate starting pitcher -- without trading any of their young talent.

Also in on the bidding for Kuroda were the Diamondbacks, Mariners and Royals.

Kuroda went 12-8 for the Hiroshima Carp last year and has a 103-89 career record in Japan.

His signing helps counter the Friday acquisition of Dan Haren by the Diamondbacks and allows Dodgers management to consider acquiring a veteran third baseman.

If Schmidt comes back in form, this looks to be a very good rotation. Now we could only do something about third base...

[Sayhey]

I disagree. I think a short-term deal for Jones is better than a long contract for Rowand. I think the ballpark switch will reveal that -- by centerfielder standards -- Rowand is an average hitter. On the other hand, it's a bit unfair to make the contract comparison because Rowand's value went up after the other two were signed. This looks like a deal that the Giants felt like they had to make.

It kind of depends on whether or not last year's .222 average is the start of a new trend, doesn't it? ;) I think the Dodgers signing of Jones was a good gamble, but it is a gamble, even if it is for two years at 18 million per year.

With Rowand, the Giants get a premium defensive centerfielder, something they have lacked for quite a while, and a decent bat. I look for him to be marginally better than Randy Winn, not much more. That's a big plus for the Giants right now. The team still needs a 4 and 5 hole hitter and they need two players to fill the voids at first and third. If I was Sabean, I'd be looking to make trades for Scott Rolen and Richie Sexson. Both are gambles, for different reasons, but they would make the Giants line up respectable, and are likely trade possibilities that wouldn't cost them a lot in prospects.

[aloofman]

Now we could only do something about third base...

I'm higher on La Roche than most Dodger fans seem to be. I don't think he'll be a major lineup hole. He's a patient hitter and he's cheap. While I wouldn't object to getting a good-hitting third baseman, La Roche has a lot more bang for the buck than most out there, especially if Nomar doesn't bounce back.


With Rowand, the Giants get a premium defensive centerfielder, something they have lacked for quite a while, and a decent bat. I look for him to be marginally better than Randy Winn, not much more. That's a big plus for the Giants right now. The team still needs a 4 and 5 hole hitter and they need two players to fill the voids at first and third. If I was Sabean, I'd be looking to make trades for Scott Rolen and Richie Sexson. Both are gambles, for different reasons, but they would make the Giants line up respectable, and are likely trade possibilities that wouldn't cost them a lot in prospects.

The metrics for defense are pretty wobbly, but Rowand might save a dozen runs over last year in that big center field in SF. I just don't think he's going to hit anything close to his 2007 numbers again.

Actually, I think Rolen and Sexson are big gambles for the same reasons: both are overpaid and underperforming. Both are bigger gambles than Jones, in my opinion. Maybe Rolen is riskier because he seems to alienate managers wherever he goes. :rolleyes:

[IJ Reilly]

I'm higher on La Roche than most Dodger fans seem to be. I don't think he'll be a major lineup hole. He's a patient hitter and he's cheap. While I wouldn't object to getting a good-hitting third baseman, La Roche has a lot more bang for the buck than most out there, especially if Nomar doesn't bounce back.

I'm prepared to withhold my judgement on La Roche until spring training at least, but since he hit only a shade over two bucks last season, he's got something to prove. I think we already know that Nomar isn't going to be an everyday third baseman, so if La Roche can't make the grade, then we're looking at another revolving door at third. Not a pretty prospect.

[Unspeaked]

Is it just me or did the Haren to Arizona news just kind of get lost last week.

If he went to NY or Boston, it would have been talked about for days.

The kid's young, he was the AL starter at the All-Star Game, he's got two years left on his contract and a club option for a third. I think he's a huge impact player. In a lot of ways, a better deal than Santana, who'll make three times as much over the next three years.

[aloofman]

...if La Roche can't make the grade, then we're looking at another revolving door at third. Not a pretty prospect.

In other words, the same situation we've had since Ron Cey left. We should be used to not having a stable third baseman by now.

[Naimfan]

It isn't just you. I meant to post about it earlier but got distracted by Christmas shopping--just HAD to find the Lego Star Wars MTT set.

Haren to Arizona gives them a formidable 1-2 on top of the rotation. That's obviously great. However: Pitching was not their big problem last year--hitting was. So although it is a great acquisition, I'll be interested to see how much of an impact he actually makes. IIRC, they were the first division winner to allow more runs then they scored.

In divisional terms: The one club that has been quiet so far is the Rockies, although they have the knowledge now of how good they can be--and how much better they need to be. They bring their core back (I don't count Matsui or Hawkins as being a part of their core) and have the experience of last year, which could be invaluable.

The Dodgers, in my view, are the scariest team because of Joe Torre, who I think will keep the natives in line and help the team reach its potential. Adding Jones, though a risk, is a very good move as he gives them a real power hitter and a truly gifted center fielder. The Dodgers just have to hope his .222 average was an aberration. The Padres again look solid, and the Giants, barring a major move, appear to be headed to the cellar.

Although my first inclination was to modify my initial prediction of the order of finish in the division, I'm inclined to leave it alone--with the Diamondbacks coming in fourth, even with Haren. Crazy division, though!

[IJ Reilly]

In other words, the same situation we've had since Ron Cey left. We should be used to not having a stable third baseman by now.

Yeah, the others just sort of fell over. :)

Anyway, Adrian Beltre does come to mind.

Although my first inclination was to modify my initial prediction of the order of finish in the division, I'm inclined to leave it alone--with the Diamondbacks coming in fourth, even with Haren. Crazy division, though!

Be prepared, some AL fan without a doubt will call it the "NL Worst." Happens every season. :p

[Silencio]

If I was Sabean, I'd be looking to make trades for Scott Rolen and Richie Sexson.

I wouldn't touch either of those guys with a ten foot pole. Expensive, injury-prone, or just plain mediocre.

Rumor has it that the Giants are interested in oft-injured former Angels IF Dallas MacPherson. Now that's a better kind of risk, assuming his back is sound and his agent, Scott Boras, doesn't ask for some ridiculous amount of money.

[Naimfan]

Be prepared, some AL fan without a doubt will call it the "NL Worst." Happens every season. :p

Ha! I'm ready.....although I am a Yankee fan first. That said, the NL West has the potential to be incredible.

[aloofman]

Anyway, Adrian Beltre does come to mind.



You're right. The Beltre experience was kind of frustrating though, what with him peaking in his walk year and then becoming too expensive.

[IJ Reilly]

Ha! I'm ready.....although I am a Yankee fan first. That said, the NL West has the potential to be incredible.

That is refreshing actually. Most Yankee fans seem to be in a hurry to explain why baseball west of the Hudson is fundamentally irrelevant.

You're right. The Beltre experience was kind of frustrating though, what with him peaking in his walk year and then becoming too expensive.

He probably doesn't look too expensive now, does he? The biggest obstacle to re-signing Beltre wasn't the salary so much as the number of years he wanted. Five years is risky enough, but seven is a real crapshoot.

[Naimfan]

That is refreshing actually. Most Yankee fans seem to be in a hurry to explain why baseball west of the Hudson is fundamentally irrelevant.


Thanks. I've noticed the same thing with some of the more. . . outspoken Yankee fans. Baseball is, at its heart, a beautiful game, whether played by men in pinstripes or red socks or Dodger Blue or even purple. That's what I love about it--it's timeless, and gorgeous to watch.

[IJ Reilly]

Dodgers sign catcher named in Mitchell Report

With one-year deal for Bennett, they become first team to contract with player mentioned in Mitchell inquiry. He admits to HGH use but says it was to recover from injury, same as Pettitte's admission.

The Dodgers became the first team to sign a player named in former Sen. George Mitchell's report on performance-enhancing drugs since it was released last week, as backup catcher Gary Bennett on Monday agreed to a one-year contract with an option for a second season.

Bennett admitted to using human growth hormone, but like Andy Pettitte and Fernando Vina, who were also included in Mitchell's report, he said he did so only to recover from an injury.

Dodgers General Manager Ned Colletti said that the explanation Bennett gave him Friday convinced him that he was a one-time user and alleviated any concerns he had of awarding him a contract that will pay him $825,000 next season. Bennett's deal has a 2009 team option for $825,000 that can be bought out for $50,000.

Dodgers owner Frank McCourt hinted Sunday that such a signing could be on the horizon, saying, "I'd be more inclined to sign a player that may have been in the report but has explained his conduct and who we're convinced isn't doing anything right now than somebody who there's a great deal of suspicion about but whose name wasn't in the report."

Bennett confirmed in a conference call Monday that what was written about him in Mitchell's report was accurate. The portion that pertained to Bennett was on Pages 222-223 and included a copy of a $3,200 check that he wrote in 2003 to Kirk Radomski, a former New York Mets clubhouse attendant who pleaded guilty to steroid distribution. The check was signed July 13, 2003, which, coincidentally, was the day Bennett was punched in the face by Albert Pujols of the St. Louis Cardinals in a brawl.

Bennett, who was with the San Diego Padres that season, said Monday that he used HGH to heal a sprained right knee.

"I was just frustrated with the way my knee was feeling, and I was just hoping it would help me heal," Bennett said. "Rumors were around that it was the wonder drug, it would help you heal, help the injuries go away a lot quicker."

Bennett was referred to Radomski by Denny Neagle, whom he played alongside with the Colorado Rockies in 2001 and 2002, the report stated.

Radomski said that he sold Neagle steroids and HGH on five or six occasions from 2000 to 2004, according to the report. Bennett declined to say Monday whether he went to Neagle for guidance or Neagle sought him out.

Bennett said Monday he was unsure if the drugs expedited his recovery or if they enhanced his performance. A career .242 hitter, he batted .238 that season. He hit .252 in 59 games with the Cardinals in 2007.

"It wasn't like one day my knee was sore and I was sluggish and the next day I was like Superman," Bennett said.

The report said Bennett declined to meet with Mitchell, which Bennett confirmed Monday.

"All we had was an invitation," he said. "We didn't know what it was about, what the circumstances were. There were no guidelines, so to speak. I was unsure from that standpoint."

Bennett said he and his agent, Steve Schneider, warned Colletti ahead of time that his name could be in the report. Bennett, Schneider, Colletti and assistant general manager Kim Ng spoke Friday, the day after the report was released.

"He reached out to us," Colletti said. "He admitted that he made a mistake. Everybody makes mistakes. Nobody's lived a perfect life."

Pettitte made a confession similar to Bennett's.

But the New York Yankees pitcher's admission of HGH use in 2002 contained the inaccurate statement the injections of the drug he received were "not against baseball rules," baseball officials said Monday.

The report by Mitchell that named Pettitte among 86 players who used performance-enhancing drugs made clear that Major League Baseball has maintained since 1971 a policy that "prohibited the illegal use, possession or distribution of drugs, including the unauthorized use of prescription drugs."

According to the Mitchell Report, Pettitte, 35, was on the disabled list because of elbow tendinitis from April 21 to June 14, 2002, when he called his personal trainer, Brian McNamee, and "asked . . . about human growth hormone."

McNamee, according to the report, had worked with Pettitte since 1999 and spent "about 10 days assisting Pettitte with his rehabilitation" in Tampa, Fla. McNamee possessed human growth hormone he had received from Radomski, the report said.

Mitchell characterized the use of that human growth hormone as "illegal" in his report.

McNamee recalled in the report that he had injected Pettitte with human growth hormone "on two to four occasions."

In his admission, Pettitte said he tried HGH twice to hasten his healing.

"If what I did was an error in judgment on my part, I apologize," Pettitte said in a statement released Saturday by his agent, Randy Hendricks. "I accept responsibility for those two days. . . . I felt an obligation to get back to my team as soon as possible."

Hendricks did not immediately return a telephone message left at his office Monday, and a spokesman for Mitchell had no comment.

Pettitte's statement that his HGH use was not against the rules ignores the sport's first drug policy, said a baseball source who requested anonymity because of potential discipline faced by Pettitte.

Former commissioner Bowie Kuhn crafted baseball's 1971 policy instituting "discipline for failure to comply with federal and state drug laws."

A formal drug policy wasn't included in baseball's collective bargaining agreement until after Pettitte's admitted use in 2002, and Major League Baseball didn't ban the use of HGH until 2005, when officials said it had been established the drug possessed obvious performance-enhancement abilities.

...

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-dodgers18dec18,1,3857363.story

[Naimfan]

Just heard on ESPN radio that Alex Rodriguez has signed with a new representative company, effectively eliminating Boras.

[MacNut]

Just heard on ESPN radio that Alex Rodriguez has signed with a new representative company, effectively eliminating Boras.NEW YORK -- Alex Rodriguez's desire to go it alone in contract talks with the Yankees drove a wedge between him and his longtime agent, Scott Boras.

The player revealed the depth of the hard feelings in a "60 Minutes" interview that aired Sunday, telling the CBS news magazine that he and Boras are not speaking to each other.

Rodriguez worked as his own agent in netting another record contract for himself -- $275 million over 10 years -- which was finalized Thursday. The three-time AL Most Valuable Player removed Boras from the negotiations after Boras announced Oct. 28 that his client would be opting out of his current deal.

When asked by CBS' Katie Couric to expound on his relationship with Boras, Rodriguez took his time before finally replying, "The whole situation saddens me a little bit. There hasn't been much back-and-forth talking."

When asked if he and Boras are speaking, Rodriguez said, "Not right now." Asked if that could change, he told Couric, "We'll see." Rodriguez said he had no contact with Boras during negotiations with the Yankees.

"60 Minutes" said Boras declined to be interviewed.

The 32-year-old Rodriguez won his third AL MVP award last month after hitting .314 with 54 homers and 156 RBIs. He said the way the opt out was handled -- during the Game 4 broadcast of the World Series -- was unsettling, and he understood why baseball fans and officials were upset with how it was handled.

"I was angered, upset, shocked, in disbelief," Rodriguez told "60 Minutes." "It was like a bad nightmare."

He said he and Boras agreed the slugger would opt out, but Rodriguez thought the move would be revealed after the World Series.

"When I realized things were going haywire, at that point I said, 'Wait a minute, I've got to be accountable for my own life. This is not going the way I wanted it to go.' So I got behind the wheel," he told "60 Minutes," according to the Post.

After opting out, Yankees senior vice president Hank Steinbrenner said New York would not negotiate further with Rodriguez because his decision eliminated the $21.3 million subsidy the Yankees were to receive from Texas from 2008-10, a figure negotiated at the time of the trade.

Rodriguez said once he did get in touch with Steinbrenner and his brother Hal, an executive vice president with the Yankees, it didn't take long to reach an accord. But the Yankees made it clear from the start of talks they would negotiate only if Boras wasn't part of them.http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3157935

[cycocelica]

anyone see what shillings is saying about Clemens. Saying that he should give up his Cy Young awards if he doesn't clear his name. I am on my iphone so I will post the story when I get home. Personally I think he would keep his mouth shut. The man seems to crave attention, especially with that blog of his

[MacNut]

Does anyone actually read that blog of his. Schilling should worry about his own career before solving everyone elses.

[fotografica]

Now there are a couple of unbiased opinions :rolleyes: I could care what he says on his blog. All that matters is what he says on the field..Especially in October.

[MacNut]

http://deephousepage.com/smilies/rofl5.gifThe baseball from the final out of the 2007 World Series is at Jonathan Papelbon's home in Hattiesburg, Miss., according to the Hattiesburg American.

Well, part of it is.

The rest? You should ask the Boss.

If he could talk, he might say it was delicious. But the most he'll say is "woof."

"Boss," you see, is Jonathan Papelbon's dog. Boss likes to play with baseballs. And Boss found the baseball that Red Sox catcher Jason Varitek gave the closer after he struck out the Rockies' Seth Smith to clinch Boston's second World Series title in four years, the newspaper reported.

And Papelbon was left with a common excuse for not doing one's homework to explain what happened to a historic baseball artifact.

"My dog ate it," Papelbon told the newspaper. "He plays with baseballs like they are his toys. His name is Boss. He jumped up one day on the counter and snatched it. He likes rawhide. He tore that thing to pieces.

"I'll keep what's left of it," he told the paper.

After the 2004 World Series, the Red Sox and first baseman Doug Mientkiewicz haggled over custody of the ball that produced the final out of the team's Series championship in 86 years. Both sides eventually decided to give the ball to the National Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown, N.Y.http://deephousepage.com/smilies/rofl5.gif

[zioxide]

who cares, it's just a ****ing ball.

[Naimfan]

Would someone please tell Schilling that being a great pitcher does not mean anyone else cares what he thinks? He's frankly sounding jealous of Clemens.

[MacNut]

Notice how he never said anything about Gagne's Cy Youngs.

[zioxide]

Notice how he never said anything about Gagne's Cy Youngs.

Gagné won a Cy Young? They should take that away too. But not on the grounds of roids. On the grounds of him sucking ass.

[aloofman]

Gagné won a Cy Young? They should take that away too. But not on the grounds of roids. On the grounds of him sucking ass.

He won one, in 2003, when he was the best pitcher in the National League. If they took away every award from a player who later sucked, it'd get pretty ugly out there! :rolleyes:

[decksnap]

I'm not a fan of schilling doing commercials for John McCain. Shut yer yap and keep pitching. But talking about Clemens or other baseball related stuff is fine.

[MacNut]

I'm not a fan of schilling doing commercials for John McCain. Shut yer yap and keep pitching. But talking about Clemens or other baseball related stuff is fine.If we are lucky maybe Schilling might have to eat his words someday.

[IJ Reilly]

This discussion belongs in the Mitchell Report thread.

[Naimfan]

Prior to the Padres. 1 year, $1 million. Low risk, high potential--not a lot of money by MLB standards, and if he is healthy (a BIG if!) the Padres have themselves a terrific pitcher.

The NL West looks like it is going to be great.

[IJ Reilly]

Interesting move, made even more interesting by the Padre's earlier signing of the Dodger's similar rehab proposition from last season, Randy Wolf. If everything comes together they'll have a great rotation -- but they are relying on the performance of some pretty old and iffy arms. I won't say that I'm wishing them luck. ;)

[Naimfan]

I won't say that I'm wishing them luck. ;)

Gee, I can't imagine why! ;) (Gotta agree with you on that, though!)

Yes they are--relying on old arms. Maddux is how old? :eek: Then again, the Padres have lately been consistently in the running, and part of that has been their ability to pick up players like Wolf and Prior and get something out of them.

[IJ Reilly]

Gee, I can't imagine why! ;) (Gotta agree with you on that, though!)

Yes they are--relying on old arms. Maddux is how old? :eek: Then again, the Padres have lately been consistently in the running, and part of that has been their ability to pick up players like Wolf and Prior and get something out of them.

Without looking it up, I'd say that Maddux will be 43 this year. The Randy Wolf experiment didn't work out for the Dodgers last year. Successfully pulling pitchers off the scrap heap is a lot about luck, and also a little about desperation. Note also, Prior won't be available to pitch until May at least.

[MacNut]

There is still a chance for the Yankees to receive a belated holiday gift.

Trade talks between New York and the Minnesota Twins for Johan Santana decreased to a murmur in December. Now, with Hank Steinbrenner back in the office, the push is on for a resolution to the pursuit of Santana once and for all.

Steinbrenner told the New York Daily News, "We're not desperate, so we're not going to chase anything."

But, he added, "In the next two weeks, we're going to have to get everything done."

According to the Daily News and the Boston Globe, the New York Mets and the Boston Red Sox remain in the hunt for Santana, a two-time Cy Young Award winner.

"I think the Twins realize our offer is the best one," Steinbrenner told the Daily News in a telephone interview. "I feel confident they're not going to trade him before checking with us one last time and I think they think we've already made the best offer."

Multiple reports have speculated the Yankees' offer includes pitcher Phil Hughes, outfielder Melky Cabrera, pitching prospect Jeff Marquez and another prospect. Steinbrenner would not comment, but he did say, "It's still the best one. And let's face it, we're the best able to handle the kind of contract [extension] Santana will be after."

The Mets have said they will not include Jose Reyes in any offer, but they have various prospects that could be in the mix, including pitchers Mike Pelfrey, Philip Humber and Kevin Mulvey and outfielders Carlos Gomez and Fernando Martinez. The Red Sox scenario includes one with Jon Lester, Coco Crisp, Jed Lowrie, and Justin Masterson being proffered.

"I either have to do it [a Santana deal] or don't do it, same thing for the Red Sox, I guess," Steinbrenner added. "I think the Twins would like to keep him, so I don't think there's any hurry on anyone's part. It all depends on what he asks for in an extension. You obviously have to be very careful with pitchers, for obvious reasons."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3179641

[zioxide]

Wow, Hank is just as big of a douchebag as his father.

TAMPA, Fla. (AP) -- The New York Yankees are still discussing whether to pursue a trade for Minnesota Twins ace Johan Santana, and senior vice president Hank Steinbrenner would like to make a deal.

"Nothing is really decided at this point," Steinbrenner said Friday night outside Legends Field at the team's spring training complex. "I'm still leaning towards doing it. There's others leaning not to do it. There are some others that are leaning to do it also. Disagreements within the organization. Nothing major, but just different opinions. I've changed my opinion a couple times."

Right-hander Phil Hughes and center fielder Melky Cabrera would likely be part of a three-player package needed to obtain Santana, a two-time Cy Young Award winner who can become a free agent after this season.

The Yankees made an offer to Minnesota for Santana earlier this offseason, then said they had pulled out of trade talks.

Steinbrenner said ultimately the final decision will made by ownership, but the opinion of general manager Brian Cashman is important.

"I always told him, 'I'm going to make the final decisions because when you're the owner you should,'" Steinbrenner said. "He is the general manager, and he has the right to talk me out of it and he has talked me out of some things."

Steinbrenner said he has no problem going into the 2008 season with a rotation that doesn't include Santana, but features promising youngsters Hughes and Joba Chamberlain.

"I'm very happy with our young pitchers," he said.

Steinbrenner reiterated that he has no plans to bring back Roger Clemens in 2008. Steinbrenner does intend to watch Clemens' interview on CBS's 60 Minutes on Sunday night.

"I guess everybody is going to find out a lot," Steinbrenner said.

Clemens said former trainer Brian McNamee injected him with the painkiller lidocaine and the vitamin B-12, according to the first excerpts released from the pitcher's interview with the TV program.

McNamee said in the Mitchell Report on doping in baseball that he injected Clemens with steroids in 1998 while with the Toronto Blue Jays, and with steroids and human growth hormone in 2000 and 2001 while with the Yankees.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/01/04/yankees.santana.ap/index.html

"I always told [Cashman], 'I'm going to make the final decisions because when you're the owner you should,'" Steinbrenner said.

What the **** does he even have a GM for then?

[MacNut]

He's just going for headlines, kinda like what Schilling does.;)

[KurtangleTN]

He's just going for headlines, kinda like what Schilling does.;)

But one is just a single player out of a sea of them, he's the owner of one of the biggest franchises in the sport.

[MacNut]

But one is just a single player out of a sea of them, he's the owner of one of the biggest franchises in the sport.Nothing new, George has been doing it for 30 years.

[MacNut]

Not good news for you Selig haters.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3201154 SCOTTSDALE, Ariz. -- Bud Selig was given a three-year extension as baseball commissioner through the 2012 season.

Retirement will have to wait now that 73-year-old Bud Selig has committed to another three years as baseball's commissioner.
The unanimous decision made at Thursday's owners' meeting came two days after Selig and union head Donald Fehr testified before a congressional committee that both criticized baseball for its steroids problem and praised it for strides made the past two years.

Selig will become baseball's second-longest-serving leader behind Kenesaw Mountain Landis, who was the first commissioner from 1920-44. Selig had said repeatedly since December 2006 that he intended to retire after the 2009 season, but many in baseball didn't believe him.




A longtime baseball fan is suing the New York Yankees over some players' reported use of performance-enhancing drugs, saying he wants repayment for $221 in tickets and a public response from his once-beloved team.

"I look at it almost as consumer fraud," said Matthew Mitchell, 30, a Brooklyn resident who said he went to his first game at Yankee Stadium in 1984. "If I'm going to watch a baseball game, then I expect it to be the real thing."

The Yankees declined to comment.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,322415,00.html

[IJ Reilly]

Thanks, you really made my day.

Bud Selig, go suck on a lemon!

Oh wait, sorry -- you already are.

[MacNut]

Wanna bet Fehr gets an extension too.:rolleyes:

And one more for now,SCOTTSDALE, Ariz. -- Houston Astros owner Drayton McLane was surprised when Miguel Tejada was mentioned in the Mitchell Report but has no regrets about acquiring the star shortstop.

The chairman and ranking minority member of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee asked the Justice Department to investigate whether Tejada, the 2002 AL MVP, made false statements to federal authorities.

"You can't look back," McLane said Wednesday during a break at the major league owners' meetings. "You have to move forward."

McLane said Astros general manager Ed Wade had spoken briefly to Tejada's agent but has not talked to the player, whose brother died Tuesday in a motorcycle accident in the Dominican Republic.

"We're going to wait until we know more facts and see really what the issues are and what needs to be done," McLane said.How did he not suspect Tejada was on the list, rumors where everywhere.

[furcalchick]

why do the owners keep extending bud? oh wait, he's one of them...not to mention an ex-car salesman.

i thought commissioners were supposed to be more of a bridge between the owners and players. something tells me this isn't good news.

but good news, less than four weeks from pitchers and catchers report!!!

[MacNut]

but good news, less than four weeks from pitchers and catchers report!!!That is always good news.:cool:

The commishes job is to do the owners bidding. He doesn't have to be nice to the players at all.

Following are the Spring Training workout dates, subject to change, both for pitchers and catchers and for each full squad of the 30 Major League Clubs:
American League
Club Pitchers/Catchers
First Workout Full Squad's
First Workout
BAL Feb. 14 Feb. 19
BOS Feb. 16 Feb. 22
CWS Feb. 16 Feb. 21
CLE Feb. 16 Feb. 21
DET Feb. 15 Feb. 20
KC Feb. 14 Feb. 19
LAA Feb. 15 Feb. 20
MIN Feb. 18 Feb. 23
NYY Feb. 15 Feb. 20
OAK Feb. 14 Feb. 21
SEA Feb. 14 Feb. 20
TB Feb. 15 Feb. 20
TEX Feb. 15 Feb. 20
TOR Feb. 16 Feb. 21
National League
Club Pitchers/Catchers
First Workout Full Squad's
First Workout
ARI Feb. 16 Feb. 21
ATL Feb. 15 Feb. 20
CHI Feb. 14 Feb. 19
CIN Feb. 17 Feb. 20
COL Feb. 16 Feb. 23
FLA Feb. 18 Feb. 21
HOU Feb. 14 Feb. 19
LA Feb. 15 Feb. 20
MIL Feb. 17 Feb. 23
NYM Feb. 16 Feb. 20
PHI Feb. 14 Feb. 19
PIT Feb. 15 Feb. 20
STL Feb. 15 Feb. 19
SD Feb. 15 Feb. 20
SF Feb. 14 Feb. 19
WSH Feb. 17 Feb. 22

[IJ Reilly]

The commishes job is to do the owners bidding.

That certainly was not the way the job was conceived when it was created, but it is the way Selig runs the office.

[MacNut]

That certainly was not the way the job was conceived when it was created, but it is the way Selig runs the office.That is also why the owners like him so much. Altho he should be thrown under the bus for the steroid issue he will come out smelling like roses.

[Naimfan]

I am STILL hoping the Yankees refrain from trading for Santana. . . but I'm afraid they will and screw themselves for years to come.

[zioxide]

I am STILL hoping the Yankees refrain from trading for Santana. . . but I'm afraid they will and screw themselves for years to come.

I don't really see how trading away a prospect pitcher like Hughes and a couple of position players for the guy who will be the ace of their staff would be screwing themselves for years to come.

The Yankees don't really have a proven ace pitcher. They need someone to counter Beckett.

Of course the smart thing to do would be to just stay engaged in trade talks enough to stall the Twins so they still have Santana when the season starts, and then you will probably be able to get him for less at the trade deadline. If not, then he possibly becomes a free agent and then it wouldn't cost you any players.

NEW YORK -- The Yankees did finish first in something last year -- spending.

While their streak of AL East titles ended at nine, the Yankees wound up with a record payroll of $218.3 million.

The World Series champion Boston Red Sox were a distant second at $155.4 million, according to information received by clubs from the commissioner's office. The Los Angeles Dodgers were third at $125.6 million, followed by the New York Mets ($120.9 million), Chicago Cubs ($115.9 million), Seattle ($114.4 million), Los Angeles Angels ($111 million), Philadelphia ($101.8 million), San Francisco ($101.5 million) and the Chicago White Sox ($100.2 million).

ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3210779)

$65 million more than the next closest team yet they couldn't afford to buy decent bug spray for Joba... lolz

[MacNut]

Bug spray attracted the bugs if you remember.;)

I don't think any of the 3 biding teams are going to pay the high price for Santana until either July or when he becomes a free agent.

[Naimfan]

I think the Yankees' payroll is going to be huge again next year, but then IIRC a lot of the bloat starts falling off--I think Giambi, Pavano, Abreu, and Mussina's contracts all expire.

Trading two top pitching prospects, who have actually shown something in the bigs, plus position players, for one stud pitcher who is on the way down is not, IMO, a good strategy.

[IJ Reilly]

This came out a couple of days ago. Surprised that nobody's mentioned it already:

LOS ANGELES -- Don Mattingly, named by the Dodgers as hitting coach two months ago and the presumed eventual replacement for new manager Joe Torre, stepped aside on Tuesday for family reasons and was replaced by Triple-A hitting coach Mike Easler.

Mattingly will remain in the organization as a special assignment coach, but requested the change so he could spend more time at home in Evansville, Ind. He also requested that further details of his situation not be released. Mattingly took the Dodgers job after losing out to Joe Girardi for the Yankees' manager job that Torre formerly held.

"I'm very grateful that the Dodgers have allowed me to take care of these family matters and I hope that everyone can respect our privacy during this time," Mattingly said in a released statement. "I truly appreciate the support of all Dodger fans since joining the organization and I look forward to helping the team win in 2008 and beyond."

...

http://losangeles.dodgers.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080122&content_id=2353013&vkey=news_la&fext=.jsp&c_id=la

[MacNut]

I heard about that, Hope everything is ok in the family.

The Yankees are in talks with Cano on a 4 year deal.The New York Yankees and second baseman Robinson Cano have reached a preliminary agreement on a deal that could be worth as much as $56 million over six years, according to reports in the New York Times and the Newark Star-Ledger.

The deal will be finalized when Cano, 25, passes his physical. The contract specifics vary slightly in the reports. According to The Times, Cano will earn $28 million for the 2008 through 2011 seasons, and he will get $2 million more should the Yankees decline the 2012 option.

Cano would earn about $27 million in 2012 and 2013, if the Yankees pick up the options. Cano would be eligible for free agency after 2011 without the option years.

The Star-Ledger reports that the contract is for a guaranteed $30 milllion for four seasons, and worth up to $56 million if the Yankees exercise the options for 2012 and 2013.

Cano joined the Yankees early in the 2005 season and batted .297 with 14 homers and 62 RBIs, finishing second to Oakland Athletics reliever Huston Street in voting for AL Rookie of the Year.

Cano was an All-Star the following season, when he was third in the AL with a .342 average. He struggled early last year -- his batting average was .234 on May 17 -- but wound up batting .306 with 19 homers and 97 RBIs.

After making $490,800 last season, Cano asked for $4.55 million in arbitration and was offered $3.2 million.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3215631

[furcalchick]

four articles of news (i hate this time of year, right before spring training, there's like nothing).

first, lo duca is rehabbing from knee surgery (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-nationals-loduca&prov=ap&type=lgns), but will be ready for the new nationals ballpark opening on march 30. you can see the construction of it here (http://clarkconstruction.oxblue.com/clarkhuntsmoot/).

second, santana will probably be traded within the week (http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/mets/ny-spjohan0128,0,3976041.story).

third, more steroid scandal. clemens says stats prove he's clean (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-steroids-clemens&prov=ap&type=lgns) and knoblauch's hearing (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-steroids-knoblauch&prov=ap&type=lgns).

and finally, no more hall of fame games (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=txhalloffamegame&prov=st&type=lgns) after this year. padres and cubs will play the last one on june 16.

just two more weeks of nothing left until baseball finally comes back.

[MacNut]

The Mets are probably the best team for him, they need pitching and have the prospects to get him. The Yankees and Red Sox were just in it to compete with each other.

[aloofman]

I heard about that, Hope everything is ok in the family.


I think SI.com mentioned that Mattingly had separated from his wife, so it's apparently not an issue with anyone's health or anything.

[MacNut]

I think SI.com mentioned that Mattingly had separated from his wife, so it's apparently not an issue with anyone's health or anything.Still sucks tho, Mattingly is my favorite player ever.

Hope I get to see him in person in a few weeks at The Sun.

[IJ Reilly]

We hope to see him in a Dodger uniform.

[MacNut]

The Mets have 72 hours to make a deal with Santana.The New York Mets have agreed to a trade for two-time Cy Young Award winner Johan Santana, giving up four prospects to acquire the left-handed ace of the Minnesota Twins, according to two high-ranking Twins officials with knowledge of the talks and a person close to Santana.
The deal is pending the Mets and Santana reaching agreement on a six- or seven-year contract extension and that Santana passes a physical; they have been granted a 48 to-72-hour window to do so. Santana has a no-trade clause that he will waive if agreement is reached on a contract extension.

The Mets paid a high price in prospects to land Santana, agreeing to send the Twins outfielder Carlos Gomez and pitchers Phil Humber, Deolis Guerra and Kevin Mulvey.http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2008-01-29-twins-mets-santana_N.htm

[furcalchick]

The Mets have 72 hours to make a deal with Santana.http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2008-01-29-twins-mets-santana_N.htm

deal is done. :(

[MacNut]

deal is done. :(Not yet, the Mets have to agree with Santana on a deal. It is all but done tho.

[zioxide]

Good.. now we don't have to hear about it anymore. And at least the MFYs didn't get him.

[MacNut]

Good.. now we don't have to hear about it anymore. And at least the MFYs didn't get him.Nor the MFRS. Guess we both win.:p And no prospects given up.

[Naimfan]

That's an interesting ending spot for Santana. It makes sense for the Mets, but it sure looks like the Mets got the better end of the deal. From what I've heard on the radio driving home from rehearsal, the Mets' offer wasn't as good as the Red Sox. Curious.

[fotografica]

"If true, it isn't the worst outcome for the Red Sox," Sox chairman Tom Werner said. "We get to hold onto our deep farm system, and Santana ends up pitching in the other league."

Werner did not mention it specifically, but the Sox are not unhappy that Santana is not going to the Yankees, who may initially have made the best offer - top pitching prospect Phil Hughes and outfielder Melky Cabrera - but pulled that from the table by the end of the process, general manager Brian Cashman saying he was committed to the team's youth.

The Sox' offers did not differ dramatically from those they presented at the outset: One package featured pitcher Jon Lester, the other center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury. The Sox refused to include both players in the deal, according to several officials with direct knowledge of the talks, and in the end felt their offers trumped that of the Mets, though one club official said yesterday he anticipated that the Twins would take New York's.

But there was considerable doubt within Red Sox executive offices that even if they'd struck a deal, they would have been able to sign Santana, who turned down a four-year, $80 million extension from the Twins and reportedly is seeking a six-year deal for as much as $25 million annually "I don't necessarily think it's a done deal for the Mets, either," one Sox official said yesterday, "if that's what Santana really wants."
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2008/01/30/twins_have_met_their_match_for_santana/

[Cooknn]

That's an interesting ending spot for Santana. It makes sense for the Mets, but it sure looks like the Mets got the better end of the deal. From what I've heard on the radio driving home from rehearsal, the Mets' offer wasn't as good as the Red Sox. Curious.Reminds me of the Frank Viola deal with the Mets where the Twins got Rick Aguilera, Kevin Tapani and three others. Hopefully Liriano can come back sometime in '08 and the Twins can contend.

[Naimfan]

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2008/01/30/twins_have_met_their_match_for_santana/

Now there's some revisionist history! And so soon. . .

[MacNut]

The Twins really dropped the ball on this one, The Yankees and Red Sox both had better offers on the table then the Mets had and they chose to try to get more. When the Yankees dropped out it really hurt any bargaining the Twins had. The only team that loses here is the Twins. The Yankees and Red Sox keep there prospects and the Mets trade away a lot of no name talent to snag Santana.

[furcalchick]

the santana trade could be cancelled (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3224116). met fans, don't start getting cocky too fast, because it could come to bite you very soon...

and jesse jackson had attacked mlb again. more details here (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=4867646).

[MacNut]

What team in their right mind would give Santana 7 years. I agree with the Mets here.

Rather then investigate the umps why not look at what the players are up too.

Have you seen the games the umps have called last season. It is obvious that they are not doing anything illegal, they are just blind.

[IJ Reilly]

I hold to the theory that it's almost always a bad deal to trade young position players or prospects for pitching. If the pitcher you get blows out his arm, the team has given up players who can't be replaced easily, and will have nothing to show for it. At least with free agents, the team can insure his salary against injury, and they lose only the injured pitcher if he goes down.

[MacNut]

Santana seems to have a big ego that is getting in the way of reality. Im not so certain that even if the Red Sox made a trade for him that they would be able to afford him. The Yankees could do it but I don't think they want to give him that much. Santana has to realize that he isn't going to get what he wants. Pitchers are much more of a risk then position players. Look at Pavano.Santana's agents, Peter and Ed Greenberg, are believed to be looking for a six-year extension in the range of $150 million -- a figure that would include an upfront payment that would boost Santana's 2008 salary ($13.25 million) to beyond $20 million.
The Mets, not surprisingly, differ on the dollars. But the biggest obstacle appears to be the length of the deal.
Indications are that the Mets want to limit the guaranteed portion of the extension to five years, not including Santana's current contract, which expires after 2008. So if Santana's side is adamant that the deal extend beyond 2013, it's believed the Mets would insist that the back end of the contract not be guaranteed, but could include at least one vesting option year.

[Sobe]

Santana seems to have a big ego that is getting in the way of reality. Im not so certain that even if the Red Sox made a trade for him that they would be able to afford him. The Yankees could do it but I don't think they want to give him that much. Santana has to realize that he isn't going to get what he wants. Pitchers are much more of a risk then position players. Look at Pavano.

Pitchers are more of a risk, definitely.

But none are more reliable right now than Johan.

Not only have the Twins protected him from high pitch counts, but he's also fairly young.

Johan is no Carl Pavano.

There's really no comparison anywhere.

This is the best pitcher in the major leagues.

And for reference, Barry Zito:

Seven years at $126 million.

Ego or not, if I am Johan I look at that deal and say, pony up people...or I reject your trade as is my right and wait for free agency where someone will be happy to pay market value for him.

[fotografica]

Santana seems to have a big ego that is getting in the way of reality. Im not so certain that even if the Red Sox made a trade for him that they would be able to afford him. The Yankees could do it but I don't think they want to give him that much. Santana has to realize that he isn't going to get what he wants. Pitchers are much more of a risk then position players. Look at Pavano.

A big reason the Sox were hesitant,is that we would be giving Santana around 25mil/year.The feeling was that wouldn't go over well with Beckett, who has proven himself with team/ownership/clubhouse..
I wasn't a big fan of getting him for the simple fact.Who was the last lefty to win 20 games pitching in Fenway--Mel Parnell?Hurst and Lee never won 20.
The Green Monster has traditionally been the death of LHPs

[IJ Reilly]

And for reference, Barry Zito:

Seven years at $126 million.

Exactly. Zito was considered to be one of the best starters in the game when he landed that deal. Has he been worth it, so far?

At least the Giants didn't give up players and prospects to get him.

[Sobe]

Exactly. Zito was considered to be one of the best starters in the game when he landed that deal. Has he been worth it, so far?

At least the Giants didn't give up players and prospects to get him.

Zito is no Johan.

Not even close.

Zito was simply not one of the best pitchers when he landed that deal.

But you know who was the best pitcher in MLB when Zito signed that deal? That's right, Johan Santana.

Zito didn't even finish in the top 7 for Cy Young in 2006.

Nor did he finish in the top 7 for Cy Young in 2005.

Nor did he finish in the top 6 for Cy Young in 2004.

Nor did he finish in the top 7 for Cy Young in 2003.

In fact, in 2003, 2 teammates (Hudson and Foulke) finished higher in the Cy Young balloting than Zito.

He simply was not one of the best pitchers.

What he was, was one of the best available.

Two very different things.

Johan is not only available, but is also the best pitcher in the major leagues over the last 5 years.

Jake Peavy may be ready to surpass him, but right now I still take Johan as the best pitcher in the game.

[MacNut]

Santana is getting too the point of no return, he won't be effective for 6 years straight without some fatigue. He is not a 21 year old ace anymore. One wrong move and something pops and his career is over. Zito was over paid, no pitcher is worth 150 for 6 years.

[Sobe]

Santana is getting too the point of no return, he won't be effective for 6 years straight without some fatigue. He is not a 21 year old ace anymore. One wrong move and something pops and his career is over. Zito was over paid, no pitcher is worth 150 for 6 years.

...

Do you follow Santana and how the Twins have used him?

This is Johan's classic line:

7 IP, 90-100 pitches. 2 runs.

They simply never overworked him.

Never.

He may be the freshest 29 year old pitcher in the history of the game and he has no injury history.

[MacNut]

Carl Pavano was healthy as well. How did that turn out. I have a big problem giving pitchers big contracts. Anything over 4 years is a risk.

[IJ Reilly]

Zito is no Johan.

Not even close.

Zito was simply not one of the best pitchers when he landed that deal.

He was the most sought-after free agent starter available last year, and he did win a Cy Young, in 2002, and has been an all-star several times.

And, FWIW, I am not making a direct comparison, only responding to your argument that if Zito was worth $126 million for seven years that Santana must be worth $150 million for six. As I said before, the biggest problem I have with the deal is the position players the Mets are prepared to sacrifice for one starter who could break his arm tomorrow. He could be the greatest pitcher ever and not be worth that kind of risk, IMO.

[fotografica]

Johan's CAREER numbers at Fenway:
ERA: 7.20
W-L:1-3
That plus a 3.97 ERA and a post season record of 1-3..In 4 postseason starts vs. the Yankees, he scraped out a 1-1 record. In 2003, his ERA against the Yankees in the postseason was 7.20..Toronto can beat him. He has a 7.44 era versus them in three years. And a 5.68 versus Baltimore.
And the Sox are supposed to give up Ellsbury and Lester/Bucholz for those numbers?No thanks....

[MacNut]

He will do better in the NL with weaker hitters. What are the dimensions of Citi field going to be. Is it bigger or smaller then Shea.

[Sobe]

Johan's CAREER numbers at Fenway:
ERA: 7.20
W-L:1-3
That plus a 3.97 ERA and a post season record of 1-3..In 4 postseason starts vs. the Yankees, he scraped out a 1-1 record. In 2003, his ERA against the Yankees in the postseason was 7.20..Toronto can beat him. He has a 7.44 era versus them in three years. And a 5.68 versus Baltimore.
And the Sox are supposed to give up Ellsbury and Lester/Bucholz for those numbers?No thanks....

You're not seriously arguing that those small sample sizes mean anything, are you?

You want numbers?

How about Jon Lester's career 4.68 ERA and a 1.566 WHIP in 144.3 IP?

How about Bucholz and his 22.9 career IP.

Shall I make you a list of pitchers who have combined for fewer than 200 career IP who never won 20 in a season, who never won a Cy Young, who never won an ERA crown or a strikeout title.

Ellsbury? Sure he's exciting, but the guy has 116 career AB!

You're talking about not wanting a 29 year old 2 time cy young winner in his prime because of 3 players who have combined for 177.2 IP and 116 AB?

You're nuts.

I know the Bagwell for Anderson deal stings but seriously, you need to get a grip on overvaluing prospects.

[zioxide]

You're talking about not wanting a 29 year old 2 time cy young winner in his prime because of 3 players who have combined for 177.2 IP and 116 AB?

Santana's performance is already declining (look at his numbers last year). You'll get more value out of Ellsbury, Lester, Buchholz and Masterson over the long term for FAR LESS money (like $120 million less over a few years) than you would get out of Santana. Oh, and what would happen if Santana ****ed up his arm? Then you'd be screwed because you gave up all your prospects and are paying a ton of money and getting nothing.

Besides, we already have the best pitcher in the game.

[Sobe]

Santana's performance is already declining (look at his numbers last year). You'll get more value out of Ellsbury, Lester, Buchholz and Masterson over the long term for FAR LESS money (like $120 million less over a few years) than you would get out of Santana. Oh, and what would happen if Santana ****ed up his arm? Then you'd be screwed because you gave up all your prospects and are paying a ton of money and getting nothing.

Besides, we already have the best pitcher in the game.

Heh.

Shouldn't you have won at least 1 Cy Young before you are considered the best pitcher in the game?

And you're talking about Santana like he is the one with the injury history.

Take a look at Beckett's medical chart sometime.

Trivia question:

How many times has Josh Beckett started 30 games or more in a season?

Answer: 2

How many times has Johan Santana started 30 games in a season?

Answer: 4. Including two 34 start seasons and 2 33 start seasons.

Beckett is only 1 year younger and yet he has nearly 300 fewer IP in his career.

I know you'll view everything through the lens of winning the World Series, but the bottom line is that the potential trade for Johan would make far more sense than the trade they actually did to get Beckett.

All the arguments you are making against Johan applied but even moreso to Beckett. He actually had an injury history and was coming from an extreme pitcher's park in the NL.

His 5.01 ERA in 2006 is a testament to his trouble adjusting.

But hey if you need to make yourself feel better for not trading for the best pitcher in the last 10 years, then by all means, say what you need to.

[fotografica]

You're not seriously arguing that those small sample sizes mean anything, are you?

You want numbers?

How about Jon Lester's career 4.68 ERA and a 1.566 WHIP in 144.3 IP?

How about Bucholz and his 22.9 career IP.

Shall I make you a list of pitchers who have combined for fewer than 200 career IP who never won 20 in a season, who never won a Cy Young, who never won an ERA crown or a strikeout title.

Ellsbury? Sure he's exciting, but the guy has 116 career AB!

You're talking about not wanting a 29 year old 2 time cy young winner in his prime because of 3 players who have combined for 177.2 IP and 116 AB?

You're nuts.

I know the Bagwell for Anderson deal stings but seriously, you need to get a grip on overvaluing prospects.

Yes,I'm serious.Why is that such a shock? You can make all the lists,copy and paste all the stats you want. In relation to the "Best pitcher in the last ten years",that "small sampling" is against the division he'd be pitching in.Which is kind of important,IMO.As I pointed out, his numbers in Fenway are awful. Which isn't a suprise for lefties..He struggles against the AL East,which again,is the division he'd be pitching in if he came to Boston. I prefer not to look at total overall/career stats (which can be skewed by pitching against weaker teams).I like to break them down a little better. And over his career,he's struggled against the AL East..Again,a somewhat important fact IMO...And I have a fine grip on valuing prospects...

[zioxide]

Shouldn't you have won at least 1 Cy Young before you are considered the best pitcher in the game?

Honestly, the Cy Young doesn't really mean ****. It's voted on by writers.

Beckett should have won it last season anyways.

[Sobe]

Yes,I'm serious.Why is that such a shock? You can make all the lists,copy and paste all the stats you want. In relation to the "Best pitcher in the last ten years",that "small sampling" is against the division he'd be pitching in.Which is kind of important,IMO.As I pointed out, his numbers in Fenway are awful. Which isn't a suprise for lefties..He struggles against the AL East,which again,is the division he'd be pitching in if he came to Boston. I prefer not to look at total overall/career stats (which can be skewed by pitching against weaker teams).I like to break them down a little better. And over his career,he's struggled against the AL East..Again,a somewhat important fact IMO...And I have a fine grip on valuing prospects...

The problem with that sort of analysis is that by those measures Beckett would have been flat out released and be selling car insurance last year instead of winning a world series.

Beckett's career ERA vs NYY: 6.56
4.26 versus TB
4.50 versus Toronto
2.95 versus Baltimore

Santana's career ERA vs NYY: 2.66
3.40 vs Boston
3.76 vs Baltimore
4.84 vs Toronto
2.79 vs Tampa Bay

Career ERA in Fenway Park:

Santana - 6.89
Beckett - 4.51

(obviously a little skewed because Beckett has 2 seasons there of not facing the Red Sox offense while Santana always faced the Sox' offense).

Career ERA in Yankee Stadium:

Beckett - 6.86
Santana - 1.17

So by your own criteria, Boston should never have traded for Beckett. He simply doesn't have a good track record against AL East teams.

Keep Hanley Ramirez and just plug in with youngsters with less of a track record.

[swiftaw]

Beckett should have won it last season anyways.

Even as a die-hard red sox fan, I don't agree with that.

[fotografica]

So by your own criteria, Boston should never have traded for Beckett. He simply doesn't have a good track record against AL East teams.

Keep Hanley Ramirez and just plug in with youngsters with less of a track record.

The difference being is that you would be tieing up Santana for six years,more than likely in excess of $150 million (through the age of 34) and giving up at least two top tier prospects.And I'll take a righty over a lefty ace anyday in Fenway. Way more risk involved with Santana,not only in terms of $$$$. If there wasn't,the Sox would have made the deal as they were close to it... And I'm not about to put Hanley Ramirez up there in Cooperstown. One good year with the Marlins isn't enough to sell me just yet. I'm not a fan of mortgaging the future to win now. If the Sox hadn't won it in 04 or 07,the deal would have been done in a heartbeat.

[Sobe]

The difference being is that you would be tieing up Santana for six years,more than likely in excess of $150 million (through the age of 34) and giving up at least two top tier prospects.And I'll take a righty over a lefty ace anyday in Fenway. Way more risk involved with Santana,not only in terms of $$$$. If there wasn't,the Sox would have made the deal as they were close to it... And I'm not about to put Hanley Ramirez up there in Cooperstown. One good year with the Marlins isn't enough to sell me just yet. I'm not a fan of mortgaging the future to win now. If the Sox hadn't won it in 04 or 07,the deal would have been done in a heartbeat.

If you're not a fan of mortgaging the future to win now, you must have hated the Beckett trade.

Or turning Papelbon into a closer.

Or signging JD Drew

Or trading for Gagne

and on and on and on

Bottom line, if you have a chance at the best pitcher in the game, you go for it.

[fotografica]

If you're not a fan of mortgaging the future to win now, you must have hated the Beckett trade.

Or turning Papelbon into a closer.
That was the plan all along,esp since Hanson turned out to be a bust.

Or signging JD Drew
Never liked,and still don't like,the Drew deal

Or trading for Gagne
Yeah,that worked out great.

and on and on and on

Bottom line, if you have a chance at the best pitcher in the game, you go for it
Not if you're winning world series w/o him.
The Mets can overpay for him....

[Sobe]

The Mets can overpay for him....

Papelbon was not the closer all along. Never was.

That sort of let's me know what's going on here though, so it's a useful thing to discover.

[Naimfan]

That sort of let's me know what's going on here though, so it's a useful thing to discover.

I take it you're for the trade, then?

[Sobe]

I take it you're for the trade, then?

For Boston? Absolutely.

They have the money and the farm system to send the pieces to take their pitching staff from very good to absolutely elite.

Then add in Schilling's age/injury history, Wakefield's age/history, Beckett's injury history...a little bad luck and Lester is their #2 starter.

For the Mets? Even moreso.

[Naimfan]

I never would have guessed! ;)

For Boston? Absolutely.

They have the money and the farm system to send the pieces to take their pitching staff from very good to absolutely elite.

Then add in Schilling's age/injury history, Wakefield's age/history, Beckett's injury history...a little bad luck and Lester is their #2 starter.

For the Mets? Even moreso.

[zioxide]

Papelbon was not the closer all along. Never was.

Papelbon was a closer in college and the Sox knew he could be used for either position. However, they had Keith Foulke as the closer while Papelbon was coming up through the minors (and figured Foulke wouldn't just drop off all of a sudden) so they started to shape him in to a starter.

If you're not a fan of mortgaging the future to win now, you must have hated the Beckett trade.

Nah, we only lost one guy and Beckett was coming in to replace Pedro as the ace of the staff.

Or turning Papelbon into a closer.
I actually was pissed when they were originally planning to put him back in the rotation for 07.

Or signging JD Drew

Or trading for Gagne

Hated both of those.

They have the money and the farm system to send the pieces to take their pitching staff from very good to absolutely elite.

There's still no point in trading away the farm for one guy. What happens if Santana gets injured? Santana could end up being injured like Pavano was for the past couple of years, and then on top of paying him $150 million, you've just traded away 3-4 of your best young players.

We already have Beckett. I fully believe that Matsuzaka is going to do much better this year after having a year to adjust to MLB. They could end up being the best 1-2 punch in the league. Lester is finally going to have a full off-season, spring training, etc and he should be a good #3. Then you have Wake, Schill, and Buchholz for the remaining 2 spots. (There was even talk back after the Sox re-signed Schilling of them using a hybrid six-man rotation at some points in the season to give guys like Schilling, Wakefield, and Buchholz (who may not be ready for a full season until 2009) extra rest in between starts.

[Sobe]

2007:

Schilling, Matsuzaka, Beckett, Wakefield, Julian Tavarez., Lester.

How many of those are home grown farm talent?

One. And that player has 144.3 career IP over 2 seasons worth of experience and has a medical history that includes cancer.

Granted Papelbon was important, but I'm talking SP here.

2004:

Schilling, Pedro, Wakefield, Lowe, Arroyo

Care to guess how many of those are home grown talent?

Zero

Point is?

The farm system wasn't how the 2004 championship team was built, and it wasn't how the 2007 championship team was built.

Why Sox fans would suddenly embrace their farm system is beyond me because it has zero to do with their SP success.

Probably because Lester and Ellsbury are fan favorites more than anything else.

[MacNut]

NEW YORK -- The New York Mets have reached agreement on a contract extension with Johan Santana completing the trade for the pitcher with the Minnesota Twins from earlier in the week. Terms of the deal have not been announced.

The two sides were given a 5 p.m. Eastern deadline to complete a deal after the Mets engineered the trade that involved sending four prospects to the Twins. But more time was needed to to work out the details and baseball officials granted an extension.

Said the Mets in a statement Friday evening: "Negotiations have been completed and the player will take a physical."
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3226412

[Sobe]

Gotta hand it to the mets...they got it done.

They just went from crying in their milk over their september collapse to the best team in the NL.

[IJ Reilly]

Gotta hand it to the mets...they got it done.

They just went from crying in their milk over their september collapse to the best team in the NL.

With one pitcher?

[Sobe]

they won 88 without Johan...

You don't think he can net them 2-3 more?

[gauchogolfer]

With one pitcher?

He was the cream of the crop
are we doing milk puns now?

[Sobe]

He was the cream of the crop
are we doing milk puns now?

no no, he'll have a career ending arm injury by May and never pitch again.

Everyone knows that!

[furcalchick]

the mets are not going to get to the world series just because of this one dopey move. they still have gaps to fill. and trust me, the mets have made bad deals before for damaged goods. i'll see if this is such a good deal in july.

[zioxide]

The farm system wasn't how the 2004 championship team was built
True.
and it wasn't how the 2007 championship team was built.

False.

Why Sox fans would suddenly embrace their farm system is beyond me because it has zero to do with their SP success.

Starting pitchers aren't the only players on the team.

The Sox wouldn't have won in 2007 without Youk, Pedroia, Papelbon, Lester, Ellsbury, etc.

[MacNut]

The Sox wouldn't have won in 2007 without Youk, Pedroia, Papelbon, Lester, Ellsbury, etc.Sure they could have, but not without Beckett.

[Naimfan]

Gotta hand it to the mets...they got it done.

True! I'm impressed.

They just went from crying in their milk over their september collapse to the best team in the NL.

Even if true, I'm not sure "best team in the NL" (at least on paper) is much to get excited about, is it?

On a slightly more serious note, how many more netwins do you think Santana realistically provides? I see the "2-3" in your post, which strikes me as low--I'd think he'd be worth more than that--like 5 or 6.

[MacNut]

True! I'm impressed.



Even if true, I'm not sure "best team in the NL" (at least on paper) is much to get excited about, is it?True, the best team in the NL is like 4th best in the majors. Still behind the Yankees, Red Sox, Tigers, ect...

I don't know how many wins Santana can get on his own. The Mets still need to score runs.

[Sobe]

In 2007, the Mets were 10th in the majors in runs scored.

4th in the NL.

I think Santana is a realistic lock for 15 wins and could easily win 18-20.

They lost Glavine who won 13 last year, otherwise their rotation is basically the same.

So a net increase of 5-7 wins is reasonable assuming everything else remained constant.

It won't of course, but all we can do is try to make educated guesses.

[MacNut]

Glavine was slowing down last year. Not sure he would help them any now.

The Mets really don't have a rotation, no mid relief. They have Santana and a bunch of old pitchers.

[Naimfan]

[A] net increase of 5-7 wins is reasonable assuming everything else remained constant.

It won't of course, but all we can do is try to make educated guesses.

Eminently reasonable! That's where I came up with 5-6 net wins, because I think Santana does represent a substantial upgrade to the Mets' rotation.

And MacNut--if you think that about the Mets, I can only imagine what you'd have said about the Rockies last year. ;)

[MacNut]

I am looking forward to what the Rockies can do this year. They are right on the bubble of being great.

[Naimfan]

I am looking forward to what the Rockies can do this year. They are right on the bubble of being great.

:eek:

Surely you jest? I live here, and NOBODY gives them a realistic shot. Which is, I think, dead right--last year was one of those flukish, once in a hundred years kind of thing. . .

[MacNut]

I thought they had a lot of good young players.

[Sobe]

Glavine was slowing down last year. Not sure he would help them any now.

The Mets really don't have a rotation, no mid relief. They have Santana and a bunch of old pitchers.

Heilman and Smith and Sosa = not bad at all.

[IJ Reilly]

He was the cream of the crop
are we doing milk puns now?

That would be bovine.

[MacNut]

Utterly ridiculous.

[Naimfan]

Udderly ridiculous.

There. Fixed it for you.

[MacNut]

Dang it, screwed that one up. Not having a good night here.:o

[Naimfan]

Dang it, screwed that one up. Not having a good night here.:o

Glad to be of service!

I know what you mean, though--my son and I looked at the window--and it's SNOWING. WTF?

[Sobe]

Johan: $137.5 million over six years

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=mlb&id=3226937

[MacNut]

We now have a new baseball thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=427522) for 2008 thanks to zioxide, the hot stove is off for the season as spring training is 10 days away.