Panther by Mid-October? [Archive]

robbieduncan

Sep 1, 2003, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by dongmin
Yeah!

Anyone try Panther on an iBook? Jaguar runs decent on my G3 500 mhz, but it's still way slower than OS 9. I used 9 for the first time in a few months and couldn't get over how much faster everything was.

No biggee. I'll be shelling out for a G5 dualie soon. I just want to make sure I don't completely abandon my iBook, my baby.

Panther feels significantly faster on my iBook 800 (640Mb RAM). Apps open faster, switching between apps is very fast and general UI responsivness is very good. Menu draw is very fast. Expose runs very well (Quartz Extreme is enabled). The new Preview is amazing. Any PDF opens in close to zero time and you can scroll smoothly through.

I have also noticed far better speed over SMB mounts (from a Windows machine).

All in all a great update!

henryblackman

Sep 1, 2003, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by dongmin
Yeah!

Anyone try Panther on an iBook? Jaguar runs decent on my G3 500 mhz, but it's still way slower than OS 9. I used 9 for the first time in a few months and couldn't get over how much faster everything was.

I've used it on my G3 700 and it is very much faster, but possibly because of improvements to Quartz Extreme.

The GUI is the most improved, it's much more responsive etc, but that's because much of it is being pushed through QE where in 10.2 it wasn't. Your mileage on a non-QE iBook may vary.

pivo6

Sep 1, 2003, 11:04 AM

This will make a great birthday present to me. As much as I like Jaguar, especially compared to Windows, Panther looks to be even better from what I've seen. I haven't ran any of the Panther builds. I can't wait.

Sep 1, 2003, 11:09 AM

my credit card is ready!!!

i have absolutely no dout that panther will be worth the money (good marketing so far apple:)

about those speed-encreases - it sounds very good - hope to get some pepper for my ibook 800 (640mb ram) and mostly for my g4 dual 450 (1.75gb ram).
hmmm... dual 450 ... that sounds sooo old!!!

after purchasing panther a powermac g5 is next!
.a

CompUSAMacNerd

Sep 1, 2003, 11:12 AM

I got to play with Panther for a bit and it is amazing. :) Tho', I don't see too many incredible differences between that and Jaguar, at least outside of Expose. Then again, it was being ran off an iBook with 900 G3 on it. I do like the simple new comestics in the finder and what not. But, would I pay 130 bucks for it when it comes out? No. I'll keep my Jaguar thank you very much. :>

Maybe OS/11 when it comes out. hehe. :)

jZilla

Sep 1, 2003, 11:28 AM

The target audience by far is the G5 owning crew - who have been dicked about no end.

No voucher/discount will really be a slap in the much.

here's hoping for _something_ back from Apple.

Hawthorne

Sep 1, 2003, 11:30 AM

My guesses for announcements?

Powerbooks updated this week, before Apple Expo, so some review of that
More crowing about the G5 ("Kneel! Kneel before Zod, errr, the G5!")
Panther.
And the "Just one more thing" ?

iTMS Europe

Hawthorne

Sep 1, 2003, 11:33 AM

Originally posted by CompUSAMacNerd
I do like the simple new comestics in the finder and what not. But, would I pay 130 bucks for it when it comes out? No. I'll keep my Jaguar thank you very much. :>

Maybe OS/11 when it comes out. hehe. :)

$130 bucks for Expose and the font management by themselves is worth it to me.

henryblackman

Sep 1, 2003, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by jZilla
The target audience by far is the G5 owning crew - who have been dicked about no end.

No voucher/discount will really be a slap in the much.

here's hoping for _something_ back from Apple.

I agree that Apple should provide an upgrade, for free, of Panther, for all people that purchased a Mac since the annoucement.

I don't think there should be anything special for G5 buyers though. Apple is a company and trying to make a profit. The G5 is advertised to come with 10.2.7, and when it's purchased, or ordered, you enter a contract to buy what is advertised.

This is exactly why Apple don't make premature annoucements (unlike other companies who have other things to gain with premature annoucements that become later and later). People stop buying stuff when they know something new is coming. With a small market share they can't afford that!

AppleMatt

Sep 1, 2003, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by henryblackman
The GUI is the most improved, it's much more responsive etc, but that's because much of it is being pushed through QE where in 10.2 it wasn't. Your mileage on a non-QE iBook may vary.

I didn't know the UI was all QE now. I think I'll fire up Panther and have a poke around. Does that include the dock? If you look back in threads on this site you'll see people saying they experienced bigger speed increases on older hardware rather than newer, I can't verify this as the two machines with Panther are QE anyway.

I just want four things to greatly improve;

- nVidia graphics drivers (and of course ATi, but they've never been as bad as nVidia's)
- OpenGL > currently shocking in Panther
- Graphics, that's everything, Quartz subsystem etc etc
- Remove OS 9 code from QuickTime (and anywhere else it may be hiding)

CompUSAMacNerd,
It's not just prettier, there's a lot of under the hood improvements as-well, take a read of the linked articles for examples. Couple that with the improved performance of apps on existing hardware, I'm sold.

AppleMatt

restiffbard

Sep 1, 2003, 11:51 AM

just one more confirm that Panther (beta 7B49) runs like a dream on an ibook (800 640 RAM)

The PDF Preview is so fast that you can't time it with a stop watch. Finder Searches are instantaneous. Believe the hype. Panther is, as the homies say, the shizzle.

I was just hoping for a mid September release. Sniff.

bartje

Sep 1, 2003, 11:53 AM

Panther is absolutely worth the money !

This is really what a good OS has to be.

There are a lot 'small" improvements, for example, the possibility to zip your files is build in, so no more extra app for that. Idem for faxing…

I'm going to Steve"s keynote in Paris. Hope we get Panther for free :D

esheep2001

Sep 1, 2003, 11:55 AM

Originally posted by henryblackman
I agree that Apple should provide an upgrade, for free, of Panther, for all people that purchased a Mac since the annoucement.

I don't think there should be anything special for G5 buyers though. Apple is a company and trying to make a profit. The G5 is advertised to come with 10.2.7, and when it's purchased, or ordered, you enter a contract to buy what is advertised.

Sorry, which announcement do you mean? I thought that Panther and G5 were announced pretty much at the same time so you're saying only non-G5 purchasers should get an upgrade? That's not very fair is it?

After delaying G5 orders beyond the advertised shipping dates, breaking your so called contract (which doesn't actually exist until the credit card is charged BTW), and therefore reducing the benefit of pre-ordering, I think Apple should give something back.

After all, it's the pre-orders that make the books look so good and new products successful.

e.

henryblackman

Sep 1, 2003, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by AppleMatt
I didn't know the UI was all QE now. I think I'll fire up Panther and have a poke around. Does that include the dock? If you look back in threads on this site you'll see people saying they experienced bigger speed increases on older hardware rather than newer, I can't verify this as the two machines with Panther are QE anyway.

I don't know if it's all QE, but I feel Apple have leveraged QE to do more things... they might as well, it is faster where it's possible to use.

QE will have a great effect where the CPU isn't brilliant but the Graphics Sub-system is up to QE. Those with fast CPUs will likely not notice a great deal of difference. Benchmarking finds my iMac 800 (17") with Panther to be up to par with a dual 1Ghz with Jag. Not bad, no matter how they've done.

I just want four things to greatly improve;

- nVidia graphics drivers (and of course ATi, but they've never been as bad as nVidia's)
- OpenGL > currently shocking in Panther
- Graphics, that's everything, Quartz subsystem etc etc
- Remove OS 9 code from QuickTime (and anywhere else it may be hiding)

I agree with OpenGL. It seems to be getting slower, first through the 10.2.3 to 10.2.6, and now in Panther.

Lastly, Quicktime. Have Apple forgotten about it? As far as I can see, the player is very different in 10.3 seeds. At least in terms of the options in Movie Properties (I can no longer turn on High Quality); and it appears to be more responsive. However this may just be the player. I seem to remember better support for Quicktime in Cocoa APIs in Panther, but I may have just made that up.

I'd like a Finder that really is multi-threaded. I can't bear having to wait with a spinning ball when browsing my iDisk (remotely). I know this probably comes down to WebDav, but I see it a lot when the spinning ball appears and that's that. Multi-tasking OS my arse.

Other than that, I'm really happy with Panther, things appear to be getting better. Now I'd love IBMs new compiler to make an appearance with compilation, get some more speed out of it, or is that going to happen with 10.4 (hey, it's faster again and worth the $129).

iJon

Sep 1, 2003, 12:09 PM

this sounds great. and this will stop people from asking will i get a free copy of panther. now we can point them to this address and say wait till then.

iJon

henryblackman

Sep 1, 2003, 12:11 PM

Originally posted by esheep2001
Sorry, which announcement do you mean?

The "annoucement" of Panther. Or maybe that's "preview". Whatever, it's the same thing. They've announced it will be available before year end after all.

I thought that Panther and G5 were announced pretty much at the same time so you're saying only non-G5 purchasers should get an upgrade? That's not very fair is it?

Actually I said that all Mac buyers should get a free upgrade to Panther if they bought a system since the "annoucement". Regardless of whether it was a G5 or a G4.

My point was why should it have to give anything away specifically for G5 buyers?

After delaying G5 orders beyond the advertised shipping dates, breaking your so called contract (which doesn't actually exist until the credit card is charged BTW).

Actually, legally, a contract is indeed entered into at the point of ordering. It however cannot be changed once payment is taken (but can be before). The delivery dates are "expected", if you read the small print of the purchase contract it says Apple can change the delivery date and it is not a guarenteed date.

Apple have never said you get Panther for free, so they have no requirement to do so. I however think they *should* since the G5 was announced after Panther. I'm just saying it shouldn't be limited to G5 buyers.

iJon

Sep 1, 2003, 12:20 PM

the announcment day for panther has not come yet. they have told us that panther is in existence and will come before the end of the year. the announcment day is when steve tells everyeone when the exact day panther will ship. and from that day on if you buy a mac or jaguar you will recieve a copy of panther for 20 dollars, covering shipping and handling.

iJon

jamesatzones

Sep 1, 2003, 12:25 PM

The switch to OS X has been an overall rough road for most Mac users. Apple has been successful in switching users to X from 9; primarily the consumers were the first to change slowly followed by the professionals who make their living via Apple and their own creative talent. Now that Quark 6 is out, the reasons for most professionals not to change are slowly diminishing. With Apple now offering little support for 9 and making most new machines non-9 bootable, the coffin is soon to be sealed. This upgrade is worth every cent Apple charges for it, I'll gladly buy several copies just to send out to my larger clients to show the difference!

Bring on Panther! In my mind this is the biggest Apple announcement since that of the iMac, even overshadowing that of the awesome G5.

Long live Apple and Panther!

henryblackman

Sep 1, 2003, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by iJon
the announcment day for panther has not come yet. they have told us that panther is in existence and will come before the end of the year. the announcment day is when steve tells everyeone when the exact day panther will ship. and from that day on if you buy a mac or jaguar you will recieve a copy of panther for 20 dollars, covering shipping and handling.

iJon

I partly agree. Only Apple know the date of shipping of Panther and this has not yet been made public. Nontheless, an annoucement has been made. We know most of us will have a final GM copy of Panther before 31st December 2003.

Apple has a tendancy not to acknowledge a products existance until it ships though. The 17" PowerBook and G5 are exceptions to this, I believe to allow hype to build and to fit with their conference schedule.

I also agree that those purchasing Macs (including G5's) are buying knowing Panther will be available reasonably soon; but I do believe that there should be some compensation for that. I'd like to see it free (or $20 for shipping), of course I don't think it will happen.

We don't see MS doing this either, but their "annoucement of Longhorn" is what, 4 years ahead? This is an annoucement of a roadmap, which is fine, but Apple's "annoucement" is a little closer than this.

esheep2001

Sep 1, 2003, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by henryblackman
Actually, legally, a contract is indeed entered into at the point of ordering. It however cannot be changed once payment is taken (but can be before). The delivery dates are "expected", if you read the small print of the purchase contract it says Apple can change the delivery date and it is not a guarenteed date.

Hey, I have no problems with that. I just thought you wanted G5 purchasers left in the cold.

Apple have never said you get Panther for free, so they have no requirement to do so. I however think they *should* since the G5 was announced after Panther. I'm just saying it shouldn't be limited to G5 buyers.

That's cool and i agree 100%. I think we just got our wires a little crossed :-)

e.

iJon

Sep 1, 2003, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by henryblackman
I partly agree. Only Apple know the date of shipping of Panther and this has not yet been made public. Nontheless, an annoucement has been made. We know most of us will have a final GM copy of Panther before 31st December 2003.

Apple has a tendancy not to acknowledge a products existance until it ships though. The 17" PowerBook and G5 are exceptions to this, I believe to allow hype to build and to fit with their conference schedule.

I also agree that those purchasing Macs (including G5's) are buying knowing Panther will be available reasonably soon; but I do believe that there should be some compensation for that. I'd like to see it free (or $20 for shipping), of course I don't think it will happen.

We don't see MS doing this either, but their "annoucement of Longhorn" is what, 4 years ahead? This is an annoucement of a roadmap, which is fine, but Apple's "annoucement" is a little closer than this.
what do you mean you partly agree, thats how apple does it and did it last time. apple lets us know that panther exists. but customers dont benefit until the day where they annouce an exact shipment date. apple did this last year, but powermacs benefited from it. apple introduced jaguar in may at wwdc, steve said it would ship by summers end. later on in the summer apple announced that jaguar would ship on august something if i remember right. then steve said if you buy a mac with 10.1 or a 10.1 box you would recieve a free upgrade by mail for 20 dollars, or if you were lucky apple threw in the discs before shipment. the way the powermacs benefitted that time is that apple shipped the new powermacs about a week before jaguar was announced and apple reloaded jaguar on to them. i just dont understand when you said you partly agree, because that is how it will be done.

iJon

henryblackman

Sep 1, 2003, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by esheep2001
That's cool and i agree 100%. I think we just got our wires a little crossed :-)

e.

Apologies if I came across a little harsh.

While I value what Apple does very much, and I appreciate the break-neck speed of OS X development; I do worry that Apple are setting a trend of $129 each year to keep current.

Support is dropped quickly of the last version which frankly is a shame - although it is not without reason (such dramatic changes version to version - again with good reason). MS has not long dropped support for Windows 95 - a 8 year old OS - but Apple has already dropped support for 10.1 - an (just) under 2 year old OS. Seems a little eager to me.

I'll no doubt pay $129 (with EDU discount) each year as I feel it's worth it. I'm also paying to be ADC Select so I've legitimately seen Panther and I can see how far Apple is going, especially under the hood, but it's an expensive business.

If this was Microsoft, they've be slaughtered by the press, customers, business etc.

henryblackman

Sep 1, 2003, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by iJon
what do you mean you partly agree, thats how apple does it and did it last time. apple lets us know that panther exists. but customers dont benefit until the day where they annouce an exact shipment date. apple did this last year, but powermacs benefited from it. apple introduced jaguar in may at wwdc, steve said it would ship by summers end.

SNIP SNIP SNIP

i just dont understand when you said you partly agree, because that is how it will be done.

iJon

I partly agree because I maintain that an annoucement has been made. A pretty clear one at that.

However given your own logic that an annoucement has not been made how do you know exactly what will be done? Apple may not repeat what they did for 10.2, they did give away 10.1 for people who had the coupons 2 years ago. I know, I got mine for free.

At the end of the day I'm stating my opinion. Clearly yours differs, however it is no more based on fact in this instance than mine. Given that Apple have indeed not mentioned a price tag, or upgrade schedule, I would say this is perhaps a litt more open than we might first suggest. You should probably read the post above which also discusses this point.

iJon

Sep 1, 2003, 12:49 PM

Originally posted by henryblackman
I partly agree because I maintain that an annoucement has been made. A pretty clear one at that.

However given your own logic that an annoucement has not been made how do you know exactly what will be done? Apple may not repeat what they did for 10.2, they did give away 10.1 for people who had the coupons 2 years ago. I know, I got mine for free.

At the end of the day I'm stating my opinion. Clearly yours differs, however it is no more based on fact in this instance than mine.
apple will do this because they like money, and they did it last time. if apple announces panther will come out in a month, no one will buy a mac because they will wait until panther comes installed on it. this way yo utell the customer, sure go ahead and buy it, and just mail this in and they will send it to you. and by the way, you didnt have to have coupons to get 10.1 for free. you just walked in a got it, and 20 dollars for shipping for people who couldnt walk in and get it.

iJon

jZilla

Sep 1, 2003, 12:49 PM

Originally posted by Hawthorne
$130 bucks for Expose and the font management by themselves is worth it to me.

Don't expect their (apple's) font management to be good enough for "professional" use, I just can't see it being "as good" (ie it's not great) as Extensis Suitcase for eg.

Sure getting a chance to not have loads of duplicated fonts will be cool, but as it stands I expect to install Extensis Suitcase even with Panther.

YMMV of course.

jZilla

Sep 1, 2003, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by henryblackman

My point was why should it have to give anything away specifically for G5 buyers?

Mine was that they told us how fast the G5 was/is but that it's dramatically slower under Jaguar (Smeagol) so maybe there is a case for G5 buyers to get a voucher/discount when Panther finally ships.

?

henryblackman

Sep 1, 2003, 12:56 PM

Originally posted by iJon
apple will do this because they like money, and they did it last time. if apple announces panther will come out in a month, no one will buy a mac because they will wait until panther comes installed on it. this way yo utell the customer, sure go ahead and buy it, and just mail this in and they will send it to you. and by the way, you didnt have to have coupons to get 10.1 for free. you just walked in a got it, and 20 dollars for shipping for people who couldnt walk in and get it.

iJon

Really this is annoying, but I'll post one last time. You shot me down for saying what Apple should do, but you are predicting the future mate. You might be right, but in your own words it's not been announced yet so it's still an open issue.

Apple aren't as greedy as you make out. Look at iLife. Not the cost upgrade like was predicted (unless you want iDVD which is fair enough). Perhaps due to reports of Steve Jobs reading forums and backtracking, or perhaps the plan all along. No one knows until it's announced do they?!

You're comment re; no one will buy a Mac until Panther ships. Hello? We all know it's coming, and yet people are buying the G5 knowing it will come with 10.2.7. Your circular arguement is finally agreeing with what I made out in the first place.

Oh, and you're wrong re: 10.1. I had to present coupons at my local Apple dealer, otherwise no go. Perhaps this was different for you, but it is fact for me.

Can we close this issue now? No one knows what will happen for sure, things can change, Apple might charge, or might not, might give it to G5 owners or not. It's all opinion and all heresay until the final annoucement is made. Here's for Apple Expo Paris later this month.

henryblackman

Sep 1, 2003, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by jZilla
Mine was that they told us how fast the G5 was/is but that it's dramatically slower under Jaguar (Smeagol) so maybe there is a case for G5 buyers to get a voucher/discount when Panther finally ships.

?

A good point, but my iMac is a lot slower under Jag than Panther too... and I'd love to get it free :-)

iJon

Sep 1, 2003, 01:06 PM

Originally posted by henryblackman
Really this is annoying, but I'll post one last time. You shot me down for saying what Apple should do, but you are predicting the future mate. You might be right, but in your own words it's not been announced yet so it's still an open issue.

Apple aren't as greedy as you make out. Look at iLife. Not the cost upgrade like was predicted (unless you want iDVD which is fair enough). Perhaps due to reports of Steve Jobs reading forums and backtracking, or perhaps the plan all along. No one knows until it's announced do they?!

You're comment re; no one will buy a Mac until Panther ships. Hello? We all know it's coming, and yet people are buying the G5 knowing it will come with 10.2.7. Your circular arguement is finally agreeing with what I made out in the first place.

Oh, and you're wrong re: 10.1. I had to present coupons at my local Apple dealer, otherwise no go. Perhaps this was different for you, but it is fact for me.

Can we close this issue now? No one knows what will happen for sure, things can change, Apple might charge, or might not, might give it to G5 owners or not. It's all opinion and all heresay until the final annoucement is made. Here's for Apple Expo Paris later this month.
we can close it, wasnt trying to piss you off or anything. and yes the 10.1 issue was different for me, as coupons were not needed and i didnt see why they would have to be because you arent allowed to sell them and every store, reseller or apple store got boxes of 10.1 cd's for free. but you are right, it is up in the air, and we realy dont nkow what will happen, i just assume thats what they will do and stick by it. and about the g5 thing, i cant imagine apple giving panther free to them, that would be a generous gift though, 100,000 free copies of panther, but who knows.

iJon

splatter

Sep 1, 2003, 01:12 PM

A guy I know "may or may not" have "marklar". Anyway, what I saw was amazing and repulsive at the same time. He had what seemed to be either an early version of Marklar or a really spiffy windows theme that also allows the user to run .app files. It bogged down the system a lot and he didn't have the ability to open .dmgs w/o special libs. Safari ran on this PC but I tried an app file that is compiled like a .pkg (quake 3) and it read it as a folder, so i don't know whats up w/ that. Anyway, It was built onto windows, he had to reformat his harddrive and files to HFS+ and it would run windows and some cocoa applications simultaneously. You don't have to believe me, but I know what I saw. It was a nice idea, but I still would prefer the apple OS on mac hardware, especially if you have to keep windows to run OS X.

Edit: I just looked at safari and its compiled like a .pkg too, I dont know why it would run safari, but not Q3. I'll try some other programs when i get a chance and see how they fare.

PS: I'm working on getting screenshots from the guy

AppleMatt

Sep 1, 2003, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by henryblackman
I agree with OpenGL. It seems to be getting slower, first through the 10.2.3 to 10.2.6, and now in Panther.

Lastly, Quicktime. Have Apple forgotten about it? As far as I can see, the player is very different in 10.3 seeds. At least in terms of the options in Movie Properties (I can no longer turn on High Quality); and it appears to be more responsive. However this may just be the player. I seem to remember better support for Quicktime in Cocoa APIs in Panther, but I may have just made that up.

I'd like a Finder that really is multi-threaded. I can't bear having to wait with a spinning ball when browsing my iDisk (remotely). I know this probably comes down to WebDav, but I see it a lot when the spinning ball appears and that's that. Multi-tasking OS my arse.

I don't know what's going on with QuickTime, my guess is to make an omelet you have to break some eggs. I'm positive performance and options will match Jaguar, and hopefully exceed it, eventually.

OpenGL...who knows. On the one hand you would think that it would improve greatly, but on the other you wonder why it still isn't faster in this late stage.

Agreed about BBOD.

AppleMatt

trianglejuice

Sep 1, 2003, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by dongmin
Yeah!

Anyone try Panther on an iBook? Jaguar runs decent on my G3 500 mhz, but it's still way slower than OS 9. I used 9 for the first time in a few months and couldn't get over how much faster everything was.

No biggee. I'll be shelling out for a G5 dualie soon. I just want to make sure I don't completely abandon my iBook, my baby.

One way to fasten your iBook, is get the full ram (640 MB). Now you can run Mac OS X more smoothly (and it's even faster than OS 9).
A second way is to get Panther. I tried the very first beta (alpha actually) and it's a huge difference compared to Panther. I even can say that it's a bigger step from Mac OS X.2 to X.3 than from X.0/X.1 to X.2.
I have an iBook 600/640 and with the possibilities of OS X.3 I can say I'll never switch to OS 9 again...

TJ

Rocketman

Sep 1, 2003, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by jZilla
The target audience by far is the G5 owning crew - who have been dicked about no end.

No voucher/discount will really be a slap in the much.

here's hoping for _something_ back from Apple.

I am trying to undersdtand your logic that machines that have been out a week or two could have owners being dicked around by anybody for anything? Oh, ya. What logic?

Rocketman

Macmaniac

Sep 1, 2003, 03:04 PM

I've heard it pre-orders for $180 maybe I'm wrong but it could be true:(

Brother Mugga

Sep 1, 2003, 03:22 PM

Is it just me, or are there an inordinately large number of Brits posting on this thread? I clocked some of the idioms and then looked at those postings that have locations.

Is it a holiday in the U.S. and no bugger bothers posting from home, or what?

Or maybe it's always like this and I've only just noticed?

Cheers

Brother Mugga

CheekyGit

Sep 1, 2003, 03:33 PM

Panther would be a nice Xmas gift. Order it in October and it will show up in mail sometime in December. Sorry to be sarcastic. With the shipping delays of the PowerBooks and PowerMacs, I can't help to think that Panther would join that club too.

iJon

Sep 1, 2003, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by CheekyGit
Panther would be a nice Xmas gift. Order it in October and it will show up in mail sometime in December. Sorry to be sarcastic. With the shipping delays of the PowerBooks and PowerMacs, I can't help to think that Panther would join that club too.
apple usually does a pretty good job with software. ealier this year they had a problem with ilife and it shipped a week later.

iJon

henryblackman

Sep 1, 2003, 04:00 PM

etoiles

Sep 1, 2003, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by Brother Mugga
Is it just me, or are there an inordinately large number of Brits posting on this thread? I clocked some of the idioms and then looked at those postings that have locations.

Is it a holiday in the U.S. and no bugger bothers posting from home, or what?

Or maybe it's always like this and I've only just noticed?

Cheers

Brother Mugga

Labour Day (http://www.historytelevision.ca/monthlyFeatures/labourDay/history/)

;)

panphage

Sep 1, 2003, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by Brother Mugga
Is it just me, or are there an inordinately large number of Brits posting on this thread? I clocked some of the idioms and then looked at those postings that have locations.

Is it a holiday in the U.S. and no bugger bothers posting from home, or what?

Or maybe it's always like this and I've only just noticed?

Cheers

Brother Mugga

It's labor day, the last major holiday of the Summer in the US. Most people are barbequeing and getting pissed and flashing frat boys at the lake. :D

etoiles

Sep 1, 2003, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by iJon
and yes the 10.1 issue was different for me, as coupons were not needed and i didnt see why they would have to be because you arent allowed to sell them and every store, reseller or apple store got boxes of 10.1 cd's for free.

I went to the Valley Fair Apple store with my coupons to get 10.1 a few months after the release, only to be told that they had run out of CD's, that I couldn't get the upgrade from Apple any longer and that my best bet was to try another store like CompUSA or the like... the sales guy (who had just finished his instore presentation of OSX) refused to burn me a copy, too, citing some licensing/copyright BS. I wasn't very happy, eventually just got it from a friend...

Anyway, just to say yes, your experience with ugrades may vary.

CompUSAMacNerd

Sep 1, 2003, 04:10 PM

CompUSAMacNerd,
It's not just prettier, there's a lot of under the hood improvements as-well, take a read of the linked articles for examples. Couple that with the improved performance of apps on existing hardware, I'm sold.

AppleMatt [/B][/QUOTE]

Oh yah. I'm pretty sure that there is a lot improvements that isn't real noticeable to the naked eye by staring at the O/S itself, but I'm also just thinking for my needs. :)

Quartz Extreme is definitly cool and I'll admit that. I didn't mention it before (cuz I'm at work and I didn't have a lot of time to really talk). I was playing Warcraft on my iBook and did see a noticeable difference in speed and preformance. It rocked.

But, for my needs, which is real, real basic photoshopping and dream weaver, I don't know if the improvements will really help me out in the long run. Its just /another/ 130 bucks I'd have to shell out after doing it for Jaguar. If this happens on a year to year basis, thats a lot of money to shell out everytime they come out with an 'improvement'. I think offering upgrade plans with proof of purchase of previous versions, that'd it'd make customers, and retailers (Like me) happier :)

My argument is not with the OS/, cuz it rocks. I just can't see myself, at least, shelling out another 130 for the OS. :)

See ya guys :>

beefstu01

Sep 1, 2003, 04:16 PM

And I, as a student at Cornell University, had class today. A day of labor. Yay.

Wonder Boy

Sep 1, 2003, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by .a
good marketing so far apple:)

Really? The only "marketing" or advertising for Panther that I have seen has come from build updates that Macrumors gives us. If you have other examples, please share.

henryblackman

Sep 1, 2003, 04:21 PM

Originally posted by CompUSAMacNerd
CompUSAMacNerd,

But, for my needs, which is real, real basic photoshopping and dream weaver, I don't know if the improvements will really help me out in the long run. Its just /another/ 130 bucks I'd have to shell out after doing it for Jaguar.

Just talking speed improvements alone, on my lowly iMac G4 (17") 800Mhz I generally find Dreamweaver to be almost unusable because it's so slow. Menus in particular are dreadful. Almost as bad as Photoshop.

I'd normally blame Carbon, but GraphicConverter is Carbon and doesn't have any of the associated slow downs. Photoshop and Dreamweaver are heavy on their menus though so I guess...

Anyhow my point is that with Panther makes Dreamweaver usable. Menus' are downright snappy. They appear the instant they are clicked on rather than a second (or longer) after. Windows appear immediately and Dreamweaver is suddenly usable.

You personally might find paying for Dreamweaver 2004 a better bet though.

henryblackman

Sep 1, 2003, 04:23 PM

Originally posted by Wonder Boy
Really? The only "marketing" or advertising for Panther that I have seen has come from build updates that Macrumors gives us. If you have other examples, please share.

Then by even allowing this to happen, and ensuring the seeds are quick and fast coming means their Marketing department are doing a very good job.

These rumors get into the mainstream press, and without Apple saying a word, the press are generally proclaiming Panther a success (even when it hasn't even been seen yet).

Brother Mugga

Sep 1, 2003, 04:45 PM

Ah haaaa...

"And another piece of the puzzle falls into place..."

Personally, I'm up for getting Festivus recognised as a World Day of Fun (feats of strength included).

Who's with me...?

Brother Mugga

PS: I take it the whole ironic 'labor day being a holiday' thing has been done to death over there, yeah?

PPS: I was over in New York once on President's Day (or should that be 'Presidents Day'? or maybe even 'Presidents' Day'? Oh my poor brain...). That single experience told me everything about the differences between our countries. Believe me, you ain't *never* going to see a 'Prime Minister's Day' holiday over here...

henryblackman

Sep 1, 2003, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by Brother Mugga
Ah haaaa...

"And another piece of the puzzle falls into place..."

Personally, I'm up for getting Festivus recognised as a World Day of Fun (feats of strength included).

PS: I take it the whole ironic 'labor day being a holiday' thing has been done to death over there, yeah?

PPS: I was over in New York once on President's Day (or should that be 'Presidents Day'? or maybe even 'Presidents' Day'? Oh my poor brain...). That single experience told me everything about the differences between our countries. Believe me, you ain't *never* going to see a 'Prime Minister's Day' holiday over here...

Personally I'd love to see Prime Minister's Day. Another bank holiday. Damn right!! We don't have enough anyway, bring us into line with "Europe" I cry, just keep the Euros and Cents.

And it should be Presidents Day... unless it's a celebration of the current President. God help us.

tizza

Sep 1, 2003, 05:33 PM

Well that's great to hear Panther should be out before the end of the year. I'm intending on getting a new PB, so I was hoping that I wouldn't then have to go out and but Panther, but with any luck PB's may even come pre-installed!!! (or at least a free upgrade ...)

Brother Mugga

Sep 1, 2003, 06:01 PM

fatfish

Sep 1, 2003, 06:33 PM

Anyone know if panther will run on my IIcx

MacPhyle

Sep 1, 2003, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by fatfish
Anyone know if panther will run on my IIcx

definitely not. I believe the only machines it will run on are G4 & G5.

3.1416

Sep 1, 2003, 06:43 PM

Originally posted by MacPhyle
definitely not. I believe the only machines it will run on are G4 & G5.

It will run on G3s with USB built-in; iMacs, B&Ws, and Pismos (the "New World" models).

mvc

Sep 1, 2003, 06:54 PM

Originally posted by henryblackman
Just talking speed improvements alone, on my lowly iMac G4 (17") 800Mhz I generally find Dreamweaver to be almost unusable because it's so slow. Menus in particular are dreadful. Almost as bad as Photoshop.

I'd normally blame Carbon, but GraphicConverter is Carbon and doesn't have any of the associated slow downs. Photoshop and Dreamweaver are heavy on their menus though so I guess...

Anyhow my point is that with Panther makes Dreamweaver usable. Menus' are downright snappy. They appear the instant they are clicked on rather than a second (or longer) after. Windows appear immediately and Dreamweaver is suddenly usable.

I find exactly the same thing on my dual 450 with Jaguar & 512mb ram (graphics card has been updated to do quartz extreme). I just wonder how much ram you have, and if thats our problem? (i.e do you need a gig to run OSX and Dreamweaver?) Its all faster under OS9 anyway, but I don't want to go there.

fatfish

Sep 1, 2003, 07:03 PM

Anyone know if panther will run on my IIcx

Only joking guys!!!:D

What I would be intrested in, is any improvements to the address book, I would love to be able to copy:- Name, Company name and address and paste it into a letter in one go, just like any other address book I have ever used.

mim

Sep 1, 2003, 10:20 PM

Originally posted by Brother Mugga
Ah haaaa...

PPS: I was over in New York once on President's Day (or should that be 'Presidents Day'? or maybe even 'Presidents' Day'? Oh my poor brain...). That single experience told me everything about the differences between our countries. Believe me, you ain't *never* going to see a 'Prime Minister's Day' holiday over here...

Ah, but Brother Mugga, we do celebrate the Queen's Birthday, and Jubilee, and what not.

And we also have those Bank Holidays, because everyone knows how overworked and stressed our poor financial industry slaves get :p

iJon

Sep 1, 2003, 10:31 PM

Originally posted by MacPhyle
definitely not. I believe the only machines it will run on are G4 & G5.
panther supports all the same machines as jaguar besides 1 computer, and thats the beige g3, they dropped it.

iJon

edenwaith

Sep 2, 2003, 12:54 AM

My most anticipated improvement in 10.3: Preview.

If it can open both PDF, PS, copy and search text, and be able to print just odd or even pages, that would be about perfect for me. The program PostView is a pretty good app, but it has a few cosmetic issues that I'd like to see be resolved, and then THAT would be the best PS (and probably PDF) reader that I've used.

It certainly would be nice if those people who order new PowerMacs get some type of deal to upgrade to 10.3, instead of having to shell out another $129. Or maybe an upgrade program for those of us who bought OS X beta, 10.0, 10.1, and 10.2 in the box. :) Now THAT would be nice to have, instead of charging everyone $129. But, perhaps not having the opportunity to buy a new computer at this time will work out for the best for me. I can either wait until Panther is already on the new PowerMacs, and perhaps I'll end up with Version B of the G5 PM.

And if Panther does make it by mid-October, well, great for them, but I'm not holding my breath. Jaguar still feels quite fresh to me, and there are still many avenues (development-wise) I'd like to research. Considering OS 7 sat around for about what....six or seven years before Mac OS 8 came out, I'd say all of these changes to OS X are pretty drastic. OS 10.2 probably should have been OS XI.

trianglejuice

Sep 2, 2003, 01:39 AM

Originally posted by MacPhyle
definitely not. I believe the only machines it will run on are G4 & G5.

Absolutely not true! I write this post from My iBook (G3) running Panther (and it is faster than Jaguar)!

Jimmni

Sep 2, 2003, 09:12 AM

Originally posted by edenwaith
My most anticipated improvement in 10.3: Preview.

If it can open both PDF, PS, copy and search text, and be able to print just odd or even pages, that would be about perfect for me. The program PostView is a pretty good app, but it has a few cosmetic issues that I'd like to see be resolved, and then THAT would be the best PS (and probably PDF) reader that I've used.

Preview is like a totally different app. It's so fast you'd not believe it. While in Jaguar on my old iMac 400 if I opened a 100 page PDF and scrolled through it it would be like trying to run through cement... Now each page renders swiftly and beautifully, never a pause. Amazing stuff. I really can believe Jobs when he said it was the fastest PDF viewer in the world. Even on my old 400mhz machine...

I can confirm that you can copy and search text, and just print odd or even pages. I've not tried opening a PS file with it though. That would be very handy.

- Jimmni

CooCooCaChoo

Sep 2, 2003, 09:25 AM

1) Development Phases:

Alpha: Features still being added. under heavy development.

Beta: All major features added, however, if possible new features could be added as so long as it doesn't cause issues

RC (Release Candidate): Feature freeze; no new features are to be added, purely bug fixing and hunting down and show stoppers.

2) IIRC, Finder and a large number of parts have been re-written in Cocoa rather than relying on Carbon.

3) New compiler, GCC, which includes new scheduling code etc should produce better code for the PPC.

CooCooCaChoo

Sep 2, 2003, 09:42 AM

Originally posted by mmmbop
I was hesitant about buying Jaguar three months after purchasing an iMac, but with what I know is packed into Panther I am completely convinced that it's worth the money.

I've still got my coupons though, just in case!

MARK

I've still got three of those coupons from my eMac purchase, what do you actually use them for? sorry, I am a new Mac user (moved from x86/FreeBSD) and was trying to work out what they were there for. Free upgrades? a signed picture of Steve Jobs in the nuddy? whats the story?

CooCooCaChoo

Sep 2, 2003, 10:10 AM

Originally posted by henryblackman
Just talking speed improvements alone, on my lowly iMac G4 (17") 800Mhz I generally find Dreamweaver to be almost unusable because it's so slow. Menus in particular are dreadful. Almost as bad as Photoshop.

I'd normally blame Carbon, but GraphicConverter is Carbon and doesn't have any of the associated slow downs. Photoshop and Dreamweaver are heavy on their menus though so I guess...

Anyhow my point is that with Panther makes Dreamweaver usable. Menus' are downright snappy. They appear the instant they are clicked on rather than a second (or longer) after. Windows appear immediately and Dreamweaver is suddenly usable.

You personally might find paying for Dreamweaver 2004 a better bet though.

What version of Dreamweaver are you running? I am running Dreamweaver MX (with the 6.1 Update) and I find the performance usable.

btw, I have 512MB installed, and the machine is an eMac.

One I would love to see a speed improvement in is Corel Graphics Suite. Painter 8 is rocket fast by Corel Draw, for example, tends to be a bit slugish. Are there an Corel Draw 11/Panther users out there who can confirm/deny whether there is a responsiveness improvement?

Freg3000

Sep 2, 2003, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by CooCooCaChoo
I've still got three of those coupons from my eMac purchase, what do you actually use them for? sorry, I am a new Mac user (moved from x86/FreeBSD) and was trying to work out what they were there for. Free upgrades? a signed picture of Steve Jobs in the nuddy? whats the story?

They are just about as useful as those white Apple stickers you got with your eMac too. They really don't mean anything. :(

danielgrenell

Sep 2, 2003, 11:06 AM

oooooooooooo! i am soooooooooo excited!

henryblackman

Sep 2, 2003, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by CooCooCaChoo
What version of Dreamweaver are you running? I am running Dreamweaver MX (with the 6.1 Update) and I find the performance usable.

btw, I have 512MB installed, and the machine is an eMac.

I'm running a iMac 800 (17") with 768MB of RAM with Dreamweaver MX 6.1. Under 10.2.6 (and 10.2.7) I find it simply too slow. Barely usable; at least in terms of the UI responsiveness. I open and close windows a lot, because I'm obsessionally tidy I guess, and find that it's incredibly slow in this (especially the Site Files window).

Panther does relieve these woes, which leads me to believe it's X not Dreamweaver. Dreamweaver is still slow though. It's a lot faster on my 500Mhz P3 at work (with WinXP). It's a shame even Macromedia seem to make sure it's OK on Win and get away with murder with Mac.

jayscheuerle

Sep 2, 2003, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by iJon
panther supports all the same machines as jaguar besides 1 computer, and thats the beige g3, they dropped it.

iJon

Make that 2. The original G3 Powerbook.

It's made-out to be a non-built-in USB thing.

Can anyone fathom why Apple would purposely disable Panther for these machines?

Is Panther built-in USB centric? :p

By most accounts, Panther is faster across the board, so these machines would gain as well.

If this is another heavy-handed attempt by Apple to get users of older hardware to buy something new, they'll be disappointed. As someone whose beige box works fine for what it's used for (but would really like fast user switching), I'd be much more likely to buy a low-end G4 on ebay than something directly from Apple. What most likely will happen is that I'll just end up not buying Panther, so Apple has not only not gained a hardware buyer, but lost a software buyer as well.

Personally, I'm counting on someone coming up with a hack that lets Panther install on these machines. Putting the lack of support on the boxes clearly puts installing Panther in the "at your own risk" category, so Apple's covering its backside, but I can't help but feel that disabling any type of install for these machines is Apples response to the class-action suit brought up against them by beige-box owners and others... - j

gopher

Sep 2, 2003, 03:01 PM

Originally posted by jamesatzones
The switch to OS X has been an overall rough road for most Mac users. Apple has been successful in switching users to X from 9; primarily the consumers were the first to change slowly followed by the professionals who make their living via Apple and their own creative talent. Now that Quark 6 is out, the reasons for most professionals not to change are slowly diminishing. With Apple now offering little support for 9 and making most new machines non-9 bootable, the coffin is soon to be sealed. This upgrade is worth every cent Apple charges for it, I'll gladly buy several copies just to send out to my larger clients to show the difference!

Bring on Panther! In my mind this is the biggest Apple announcement since that of the iMac, even overshadowing that of the awesome G5.

Long live Apple and Panther!
Despite my having been using Mac OS X since the beginning I would be honest and say, not! Mac OS 9 has been all most people needed in their computer, and they aren't looking for new features. There are even sites that go so far as to say:

http://www.os9forever.com/

Most of my customers still use it. My mother who I convinced to switch to the Mac still uses it, and I'm not about to try and convince to her Mac OS X is better. If Apple offered free software upgrades to anyone who updated to Mac OS X from Mac OS 9, that would be the thing that really help the switch to Mac OS X. Nothing less than that will.

BWhaler

Sep 2, 2003, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by henryblackman
...MS has not long dropped support for Windows 95 - a 8 year old OS - but Apple has already dropped support for 10.1 - an (just) under 2 year old OS. Seems a little eager to me.
...
If this was Microsoft, they've be slaughtered by the press, customers, business etc.

Let's clear this point up.

Microsoft has not dropped support for Win95 because the federal government mandated it as part of their anti-trust settlement, not because they care about their customers. Something, I am told, MS faught hard not to have to do.

I understand the sentiment of your point, but personally speaking, I am OK with Apple's approach.

It's a "pick your poison" proposition. Would you rather have the option to pay $129 each year for a markedly better OS, or wait for an incremental upgrade every 4-6 years at $199. Personally, I would take the innovation and progress every time.

Plus, you don't HAVE TO upgrade. Your software will still work with Jaguar years from now.

iJon

Sep 2, 2003, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by jayscheuerle
Make that 2. The original G3 Powerbook.

It's made-out to be a non-built-in USB thing.

Can anyone fathom why Apple would purposely disable Panther for these machines?

Is Panther built-in USB centric? :p

By most accounts, Panther is faster across the board, so these machines would gain as well.

If this is another heavy-handed attempt by Apple to get users of older hardware to buy something new, they'll be disappointed. As someone whose beige box works fine for what it's used for (but would really like fast user switching), I'd be much more likely to buy a low-end G4 on ebay than something directly from Apple. What most likely will happen is that I'll just end up not buying Panther, so Apple has not only not gained a hardware buyer, but lost a software buyer as well.

Personally, I'm counting on someone coming up with a hack that lets Panther install on these machines. Putting the lack of support on the boxes clearly puts installing Panther in the "at your own risk" category, so Apple's covering its backside, but I can't help but feel that disabling any type of install for these machines is Apples response to the class-action suit brought up against them by beige-box owners and others... - j
well true to be more specific. jaguar didnt support that machine either, so in my statement "every computer jaguar supported besides 1, the beige g3' is still correct. but for the obvious part, original powerbook g3 and original beige powermac g3 are not supported.

iJon

WM.

Sep 2, 2003, 04:55 PM

Originally posted by jayscheuerle
Make that 2. The original G3 Powerbook.
Not quite. Actually, you and iJon are both incorrect. No version of OS X has supported the original G3 PowerBook (250 MHz), which was introduced at the same time as the beige PMG3 (November 1997). Panther drops support for the beige PMG3 and the Wallstreet PowerBook, which was introduced in April '98. At least, I'm pretty sure it was April; maybe it was March--in any case it was before the original iMac was announced.
It's made-out to be a non-built-in USB thing.

Can anyone fathom why Apple would purposely disable Panther for these machines?

Is Panther built-in USB centric? :p

[...]

Personally, I'm counting on someone coming up with a hack that lets Panther install on these machines. Putting the lack of support on the boxes clearly puts installing Panther in the "at your own risk" category, so Apple's covering its backside, but I can't help but feel that disabling any type of install for these machines is Apples response to the class-action suit brought up against them by beige-box owners and others... - j
Nah, that suit covered iBooks (like mine) and Rev. A-D iMacs too, and they're all supported in Panther.

Rather, Panther requires built-in USB because that's an easy-to-understand indicator of a NewWorld machine (Rev. A iMac and later), rather than an OldWorld one (Wallstreet and earlier). I believe the significant internal difference between them are at the ROM/firmware level--it totally changed, which, I imagine, is pretty important to booting and supporting an OS. Presumably there are fairly significant changes to the kernel in Panther (as there are in each new version of OS X), and Apple simply decided that it wasn't going to expend the time needed for kernel versions 7.0 and later to support a totally different architecture.

So over the past few years we've seen support for non-G3 machines, the original G3 PowerBook, and now OldWorld machines dropped. What's next? I think there are two possibilities:

1) Machines with less than, say, a 300 or 400 MHz G3. I doubt Apple would do this "just because", so it would have to be because 10.4 (or whatever) includes some fancy new feature that's always turned on and requires a certain level of performance.

2) Machines without the Unified Motherboard Architecture introduced with the original iBook. If you look in Apple System Profiler, you'll see that there are quite a few kexts dedicated to things like Gossamer, Grackle, and Heathrow. These all refer to chipsets used in Apple hardware before the UMA was introduced. (Some of those are from OldWorld machines, so you won't see them in Panther .) I imagine Apple could save some money if they didn't have to constantly revise those kexts to make them work with the latest version of OS X. KeyLargo, on the other hand, is one of the two primary chips in the UMA (it's the southbridge). In case you're wondering, I think the most obvious feature of the UMA is AGP graphics--so it might be harder for Apple to communicate to less knowledgeable users whether their machine is supported or not. There really aren't any external changes that are common to all the product lines that came along with UMA. For example, if your PowerBook or iMac has built-in FireWire, it has the UMA, but there are plenty of Power Macs out there that [i]do have FireWire but don't have the UMA (B&W G3s, and G4s with PCI graphics). And all iBooks have the UMA. So, even though this option would probably save money on the development side, it would mean quite a few confused users--which might cost more on the PR side.

To sum it all up, the newest machine that will lose support in Panther (the Wallstreet PB) was introduced over five years ago, and we should be expecting more machines to become obsolete as development continues. I personally think that option #2 above is more likely for 10.4 or 10.5, but we've got at least a year to worry about that, and by this time next year the B&W G3 will be over five years old just like the machines that are losing support now are.

HTH
WM

edits: clarified the end of option #2

WM.

Sep 2, 2003, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by henryblackman
Personally I'd love to see Prime Minister's Day. Another bank holiday. Damn right!! We don't have enough anyway, bring us into line with "Europe" I cry, just keep the Euros and Cents.

And it should be Presidents Day... unless it's a celebration of the current President. God help us.
I believe it's Presidents' Day, and it celebrates Washington's and Lincoln's birthdays. They're not the same day, but they're close, so at some point we combined them into one holiday.

But I'm not sure--American Government (or Civics for you old farts ;) ) is this year, and maybe (just maybe) we'll learn about that kind of stuff. Although since I'm taking AP Gov, what we'll learn is dictated by the College Board, not the district or the teacher, and I doubt that the origins of holidays will be on the AP test. But we'll see...

FWIW
WM

CooCooCaChoo

Sep 2, 2003, 09:13 PM

Originally posted by henryblackman
I'm running a iMac 800 (17") with 768MB of RAM with Dreamweaver MX 6.1. Under 10.2.6 (and 10.2.7) I find it simply too slow. Barely usable; at least in terms of the UI responsiveness. I open and close windows a lot, because I'm obsessionally tidy I guess, and find that it's incredibly slow in this (especially the Site Files window).

Panther does relieve these woes, which leads me to believe it's X not Dreamweaver. Dreamweaver is still slow though. It's a lot faster on my 500Mhz P3 at work (with WinXP). It's a shame even Macromedia seem to make sure it's OK on Win and get away with murder with Mac.

Oh well, for me, I normally have a whole tonne of applications open and simply minimise those I am not current using it, hence, I most likely don't see the issues you are having.

IIRC Panther may still include debugging code so you may see a performance improvement in the final product.