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MacRumors
Sep 1, 2003, 12:20 PM
Apple seeded Panther and XCode 7B53 versions today -- which includes the usual round of bug fixes and remaining 'known issues'.

Of interest, Apple writes: "We are fast approaching first candidate build" in the included Seed Notes provided to developers. (as noted by ThinkSecret today)

As Apple ramps up towards as final release (aka Gold Master) of an Operating System, they typically go through a variable number of "Final Candidate" releases for final testing/bug fixes.



PyroTurtle
Sep 1, 2003, 01:17 PM
ya, it's a cool new version...little faster on the G4 than the others...
just need a G5 to really test it out eh?

FredAkbar
Sep 1, 2003, 01:47 PM
So no new features? Just speed/performance increases?

I think Panther is on track for a September announcement and September/October shipping.

morlium
Sep 1, 2003, 02:24 PM
yes sir .... after all, Oct. 3 (10.3) falls on a Friday.

FredAkbar
Sep 1, 2003, 02:43 PM
Ah...I didn't even think of the "10.3" (Oct 3) release date possibility. Neat :)

bobindashadows
Sep 1, 2003, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by FredAkbar
Ah...I didn't even think of the "10.3" (Oct 3) release date possibility. Neat :)
yeah, that's an awesome idea.

sickracer2015
Sep 1, 2003, 03:17 PM
anyone see it on the adc site yet? or still just on the appleseed?

AppleMatt
Sep 1, 2003, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by sickracer2015
anyone see it on the adc site yet? or still just on the appleseed?

AppleSeed at the mo.

Originally posted by PyroTurtle
ya, it's a cool new version...little faster on the G4 than the others...
just need a G5 to really test it out eh?

How do you know this? Assuming I'm wrong and within the last few minutes it's been made available, what connection do you have to download (at least) a gig that fast? And then install & test it?!

AppleMatt

daveL
Sep 1, 2003, 04:28 PM
Must have just gone up.

AppleMatt: I think the other person was just taking the comments from AppleInsider in the most generous light :)

cubist
Sep 1, 2003, 04:45 PM
Since this is in fact a news item and not a rumor at all, it would seem that it would justify a Page 1 placement.

FTM, the creaky old "Apple on Intel" rumor should have been on page 2 - if only because there is no page 3.

arn
Sep 1, 2003, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by cubist
Since this is in fact a news item and not a rumor at all, it would seem that it would justify a Page 1 placement.


http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/07/20030725152925.shtml


Page 2 also may collect minor tidbits and links, that are not detailed enough to write a full article about.


that being said, ThinkSecret has added enough information to upgrade this to a first page post.

arn

alia
Sep 1, 2003, 05:26 PM
This is pretty exciting. :) My mom has been waiting diligently for Panther to be released. She has 10.1 and didn't want to upgrade to Jaguar if Panther was going to be right around the corner. I guess procrastination works sometimes.

Anyway, hopefully the mid-October thing is true. Yay!


Now if only they'd update their Powerbooks!

Alia

Freg3000
Sep 1, 2003, 05:34 PM
October 3rd for 10.3 would be the perfect Apple touch.

"10.3 on 10-3."

Although it wouldn't mean that much internationally. :)

I am a bit confused. I know that the last 10.2.x updates have seeds numbers with 4 digits. But I seem to remember that the GM Jaguar seed was 6C115. That is 5 digits. Is there anything to this, or is this just normal?

tizza
Sep 1, 2003, 05:39 PM
This is excellent news - and yes I love that 10.3 release idea!!

bobindashadows
Sep 1, 2003, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by Freg3000
October 3rd for 10.3 would be the perfect Apple touch.

"10.3 on 10-3."

Although it wouldn't mean that much internationally. :)

I am a bit confused. I know that the last 10.2.x updates have seeds numbers with 4 digits. But I seem to remember that the GM Jaguar seed was 6C115. That is 5 digits. Is there anything to this, or is this just normal?
I don't know. I always do build numbers as.... uhh... numbers. Like v1, v2, v3.

Rincewind42
Sep 1, 2003, 05:51 PM
Bah, and I was just going to file a few bugs tommorow... now they prolly won't be fixed until 10.3.1, or worse, 10.4 :(

bennetsaysargh
Sep 1, 2003, 06:02 PM
yay!
getting closer:)

i really like the 10.3 and 10/3 idea:)
perfect night for an apple store event:p

Catfish_Man
Sep 1, 2003, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by Freg3000
October 3rd for 10.3 would be the perfect Apple touch.

"10.3 on 10-3."

Although it wouldn't mean that much internationally. :)

I am a bit confused. I know that the last 10.2.x updates have seeds numbers with 4 digits. But I seem to remember that the GM Jaguar seed was 6C115. That is 5 digits. Is there anything to this, or is this just normal?

6C115:
6: Darwin major version. Corresponds to 10.2
C: Specifies the "fork" of the code that the build came from (I'm not sure about this, but the first and last ones I'm pretty sure about)
115: The build number

henryblackman
Sep 1, 2003, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by Rincewind42
Bah, and I was just going to file a few bugs tommorow... now they prolly won't be fixed until 10.3.1, or worse, 10.4 :(

As an ADC Select member myself, you should definately file all the bugs you can find in this seed. If they know about them they usually fix them, if they don't know about them they'll never get fixed.

At least you can watch the status of the bug.

whooleytoo
Sep 1, 2003, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by Freg3000 "10.3 on 10-3."

Although it wouldn't mean that much internationally. :) [/B]

Heheh. So either Panther is 7 months late here in Europe or (more likely) 5 months early! Perhaps that's why Steve is coming over for the Paris Expo - to launch MacOS 3.10? :-)

fatfish
Sep 1, 2003, 06:25 PM
October 3rd for 10.3 would be the perfect Apple touch.

"10.3 on 10-3."

Although it wouldn't mean that much internationally

--------------------------------------------------
I assume you mean it wouldn't mean that much internationally because it's only North America that writes the month before the day in digit form.

Not quite true, I do it all the time, I usually start my file names with the date and unless you put the month first, they're all messed up in a list.

I know I'm not the only one outside of NA to do this.

Also nobody here refers to the 11-9 incident.

So let's make it 10.3 on 10-3 Apple

henryblackman
Sep 1, 2003, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by AppleMatt
AppleSeed at the mo.



What is AppleSeed? It's the first time I've heard of it?

daveL
Sep 1, 2003, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by henryblackman
What is AppleSeed? It's the first time I've heard of it?
It's a non-ADC beta program, i.e. a beta program for end users, rather than developers (who can sometimes be myoptic (sp?)). I forget where the page is, but you can find the sign-up info on the Apple site. They only maintain a set number of folkds, so you may be rejected (not personally, of course) if they already have enough participants.

Longey Nowze
Sep 1, 2003, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by Rincewind42
Bah, and I was just going to file a few bugs tommorow... now they prolly won't be fixed until 10.3.1, or worse, 10.4 :(

what kinda of bugs? can you tell us or is there some sort of NDA? if so I wont tell anyone it was you :)

thank you
MaT

Macmaniac
Sep 1, 2003, 09:06 PM
A day after my birthday:) What a wonderful gift.

sebaz
Sep 1, 2003, 09:11 PM
Does anyone know if they fix that problem, where if u change ur volume while the processor is thinking, or change it up and down, or too fast period, the balance goes off, anyone anyone?

soosy
Sep 1, 2003, 09:33 PM
Getting towards final candidate status, eh?

I was thinking that Steve would unveil a few more new features at launch... does anyone remember if that happened with Jaguar? Or did the preview of Jag pretty much cover all the new stuff?

daveL
Sep 1, 2003, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by soosy
Getting towards final candidate status, eh?

I was thinking that Steve would unveil a few more new features at launch... does anyone remember if that happened with Jaguar? Or did the preview of Jag pretty much cover all the new stuff?
Hmmm... release new features that haven't seen the light of day on product launch? Unless it's been secretly beta tested to the extreme, I find that highly unlikely. We don't want to start emulating M$'s idea of software development, do we?? Let's hope not!

tizza
Sep 1, 2003, 09:56 PM
Originally posted by soosy
Getting towards final candidate status, eh?

I was thinking that Steve would unveil a few more new features at launch... does anyone remember if that happened with Jaguar? Or did the preview of Jag pretty much cover all the new stuff?
I think with the current features plus the expected speed increases, that's enough to justify a new version - let's face it, OS X is such a value-added OS already that is leaves what Windows includes for dead!

mim
Sep 1, 2003, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by Freg3000
October 3rd for 10.3 would be the perfect Apple touch.

"10.3 on 10-3."

Although it wouldn't mean that much internationally. :)


That's right, the rest of the world is going to have to wait till the 10th of March next year.

They'll release it right alongside International iTunes :rolleyes:

Mineral
Sep 1, 2003, 10:43 PM
Anyone with Panther:

HOW FAST IS IT??

Is it really a lot snappier than 10.2??

I can't wait to order Panther..

Rincewind42
Sep 1, 2003, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by Longey Nowze
what kinda of bugs? can you tell us or is there some sort of NDA? if so I wont tell anyone it was you :)

1) No, I can't tell you actually, but
2) They are not things that normal users will come across. So don't worry about it - nothing that will eat your HD :D

Mac User Canada
Sep 1, 2003, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by fatfish
October 3rd for 10.3 would be the perfect Apple touch.

"10.3 on 10-3."

Although it wouldn't mean that much internationally

--------------------------------------------------
I assume you mean it wouldn't mean that much internationally because it's only North America that writes the month before the day in digit form.

Not quite true, I do it all the time, I usually start my file names with the date and unless you put the month first, they're all messed up in a list.

I know I'm not the only one outside of NA to do this.

Also nobody here refers to the 11-9 incident.

So let's make it 10.3 on 10-3 Apple

----------------------
----------------------
The ISO standard for dates is:

year.month.day

October 3rd, 2003 is properly denoted as:

2003.10.03

In other words, largest units to smallest units as in hours.minutes.seconds.

Americans don't typicaly conform to international standards so I'm curious to read the responses, if any, to these comments. :-)

MUC

huckleup
Sep 1, 2003, 11:07 PM
What is AppleSeed? It's the first time I've heard of it?
check out:
appleseed.apple.com (http://appleseed.apple.com)

mim
Sep 1, 2003, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by Mac User Canada
----------------------
----------------------
The ISO standard for dates is:

year.month.day

October 3rd, 2003 is properly denoted as:

2003.10.03

In other words, largest units to smallest units as in hours.minutes.seconds.

Americans don't typicaly conform to international standards so I'm curious to read the responses, if any, to these comments. :-)

MUC

Most places I've been use day/month/year for general use (I've not been to North America). I'm sure the reason for this is purely historical (Roman, eg. the Ides (sp?) of March)

All our files (electronic) use the iso standard - that way they actually stay in date order. I get quite mad when people use any other format. It's not really their fault though - you'd think by now a file system would be able to recognise a date format in a file/folder name and sort them properly. :rolleyes:

Topic, what topic?!

Longey Nowze
Sep 1, 2003, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by Rincewind42
1) No, I can't tell you actually, but
2) They are not things that normal users will come across. So don't worry about it - nothing that will eat your HD :D

Psssst PM me and tell me ;)

so they are minor bugs then? that's good to hear... thanks

Thank You
MaT

bretm
Sep 1, 2003, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by alia
This is pretty exciting. :) My mom has been waiting diligently for Panther to be released. She has 10.1 and didn't want to upgrade to Jaguar if Panther was going to be right around the corner. I guess procrastination works sometimes.

Anyway, hopefully the mid-October thing is true. Yay!


Now if only they'd update their Powerbooks!

Alia

Don't tell your mom 10.4 is probably "right around the corner" if you consider every 13 months right around the corner. I believe Jag came out in august 2002?

Juventuz
Sep 2, 2003, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by Mineral
Anyone with Panther:

HOW FAST IS IT??

Is it really a lot snappier than 10.2??

I can't wait to order Panther..

Yes it is much quicker than Jaguar in many instances. Many people with low end G4's and even G3's are noticing an increase in speed in the OS.

I'm running it on a TiPB 800Mhz and have noticed a considerable increase in many of the apps.

SiliconAddict
Sep 2, 2003, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by daveL
Hmmm... release new features that haven't seen the light of day on product launch? Unless it's been secretly beta tested to the extreme, I find that highly unlikely. We don't want to start emulating M$'s idea of software development, do we?? Let's hope not!

Sorry couldn't let this one go. What RU talking about?!?! MS locks their feature set at least 6 months to a year in advance of release. 9 times out of 10 if you can get your hands on a beta or one of the early release candidates its going to be identical to what's considered gold code...er...MS......tin code....nope still not right....lead code that is released to manufacturers. This is what has shocked me with Panther. After Jobs demoed Panther earlier this year everyone was so hopeful that X or Y would be added. I've never see this type of development on Windows. When you get a beta 8 months out or a RC 6 or 3 months out what's there is what's going to be in the final release. *shrugs* different strokes for different folks.

OK back on topic. This is really good news. Panther is going to be released to the masses just as the holiday buying season kicks off. I've never paid much attention in the past but does Apple actively advertise the release of any of its OS's? I don't remember ever seeing anything for Jaguar or X.1 Then again at the time I wasn't all that interested in anything Apple put out so it could have easily passed me by.

AhmedFaisal
Sep 2, 2003, 01:09 AM
This probably has been answered before but does anyone know if Xcode and the other Dev. Tools including the CLI stuff will be finally a part of the Install CD for the Client OS? Since PortsManager will be part of the OS now it would be nice. I do a lot of custom compiles of *nix Software on my machine and I always hated having to DL the Dev. Tools CD.
Cheers,

Ahmed

MacSlut
Sep 2, 2003, 01:15 AM
Originally posted by SiliconAddict

OK back on topic. This is really good news. Panther is going to be released to the masses just as the holiday buying season kicks off. I've never paid much attention in the past but does Apple actively advertise the release of any of its OS's? I don't remember ever seeing anything for Jaguar or X.1 Then again at the time I wasn't all that interested in anything Apple put out so it could have easily passed me by.

They had parties at the Apple stores when Jaguar came out. I live just a couple of blocks from the Palo Alto store, which is just a few blocks from where Steve Jobs lives. He was there, and approachable. There was a line that ran around the corner for hours.

Being the geek that I am, I showed up with a Jaguar print hat and shirt.

I hope Apple does release on 10/3...I don't know why, but I do think it's a cool idea. I also do think it will be ready by then. The latest betas are running damn fine for me. Now that Toast 6 is out, I'm all ready to go!

fabsgwu
Sep 2, 2003, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by sebaz
Does anyone know if they fix that problem, where ... the balance goes off, anyone anyone?

This is the most annoying problem. I really hope they fix it, as it's been with us (and widely known) all through 10.2

MacsRgr8
Sep 2, 2003, 01:51 AM
The developer seeds were distributed on more than 2 CD's.
You think there will be a DVD-verision of the installer? Or maybe one DVD, and 3/4 Cd's?
DVD would be gr8! But the CD's are needed aswell....

esheep2001
Sep 2, 2003, 02:15 AM
Originally posted by daveL
It's a non-ADC beta program, i.e. a beta program for end users, rather than developers (who can sometimes be myoptic (sp?)). I forget where the page is, but you can find the sign-up info on the Apple site. They only maintain a set number of folkds, so you may be rejected (not personally, of course) if they already have enough participants.

Hmm, don't bother for now. There's a note on the sign-up page saying they're not looking for new testers and no way to sign up for the future.

Probably worth a look later on.

e.

Ge4-ce
Sep 2, 2003, 07:26 AM
You know what I love the most?

Look at us! We, Apple enthousiasts are almost begging for a new OS!! Why? Because it gets BETTER! On the evil side, it's more like.. oh no.. again a new OS, now we have to upgrade.. all our programs.. again.. and we have to buy a new computer because it requiers more resources..

We get a more snappier OS every time! Apple tries to write good code.. Maybe that is a good thing about the fact that the G4 was not nr1 anymore.. they had to compensate the lack of speed (small lack) with better software! and I bet that 10.3 will scream on a G5!

Kermit
Sep 2, 2003, 07:36 AM
Originally posted by Ge4-ce
... and I bet that 10.3 will scream on a G5!

I don't know about Panther; but I sure would scream on a G5!! :D

tduality
Sep 2, 2003, 07:44 AM
Originally posted by Ge4-ce
You know what I love the most?

Look at us! We, Apple enthousiasts are almost begging for a new OS!! Why? Because it gets BETTER! On the evil side, it's more like.. oh no.. again a new OS, now we have to upgrade.. all our programs.. again.. and we have to buy a new computer because it requiers more resources..

We get a more snappier OS every time! Apple tries to write good code.. Maybe that is a good thing about the fact that the G4 was not nr1 anymore.. they had to compensate the lack of speed (small lack) with better software! and I bet that 10.3 will scream on a G5!

That's right! My G4 400 is getting faster with each release. Can't wait for Panther. And it's an excellent engineering practice to improve the code you have instead of asking the users to upgrade their machine. Makes me almost proud of being a Mac user. :)

kristianm
Sep 2, 2003, 08:07 AM
Originally posted by Mac User Canada
----------------------
----------------------
The ISO standard for dates is:

year.month.day

October 3rd, 2003 is properly denoted as:

2003.10.03

In other words, largest units to smallest units as in hours.minutes.seconds.

Americans don't typicaly conform to international standards so I'm curious to read the responses, if any, to these comments. :-)

MUC

I think the important thing is to make it increasing or decreasing. Use day/month/year or year/month/day, not month/day/year like I've seen some people use.

Juventuz
Sep 2, 2003, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by MacSlut
Now that Toast 6 is out, I'm all ready to go!

I can't seem to get Toast 6 to work in Panther. It quits the installation process everytime.

PyroTurtle
Sep 2, 2003, 08:39 AM
to answer everyones pm questions, i don't get my builds from appleseed. that's how i got it so fast and could test it

Photorun
Sep 2, 2003, 08:45 AM
It's pretty snappy I must say. And some people were saying "well Panther is for the G5 really..." heck no!!! Panther was being worked on prior to the entire 970 deal being inked. At it's heart is across the board improvements for just about any Mac (that can run it).

Boot up is faster, finder is a lot faster, even on my original iceBook (firewire iBook), apps launch quicker, overall it's pretty much across the board better. Except the odd Toast just quiting on me after launching everything seems in order. Just a few tweaks and it's golden (master).

slightly
Sep 2, 2003, 09:08 AM
As an aside, New York City taxis each have a unique identifier on their roof, in the format [1-9][A-Z][1-9][1-9]. So, there's a taxi floating around there somewhere for each of these numbered builds.

I keep hoping that I'll hail, say, taxi 7B65 and find Steve Jobs in the driver's seat saying "You have won a copy of Panther....and one more thing...a dual G5 system!". But no. It's a surly Arab mumbling into his cellphone the whole journey, every time. Bah.

bennetsaysargh
Sep 2, 2003, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by mim
That's right, the rest of the world is going to have to wait till the 10th of March next year.

They'll release it right alongside International iTunes :rolleyes:

perfect! panther on my birthday! march 10th:D
international iTunes should happen very soon. it doesnt matter fr me though, i live in NY.

Originally posted by MacsRgr8
The developer seeds were distributed on more than 2 CD's.
You think there will be a DVD-verision of the installer? Or maybe one DVD, and 3/4 Cd's?
DVD would be gr8! But the CD's are needed aswell....

one problem is that not all macs have DVD ROM drives. some older imacs and iBooks don't have it.
heck, there's even an eMac with just a CDROM drive.
i would lke that, but it wouldn't be fair.
and also, would it be possible to boot from a DVD to install?

AhmedFaisal
Sep 2, 2003, 09:45 AM
Do any of the folks here that got Panther Seeds know anything about that?
Cheers,

Ahmed

sushi
Sep 2, 2003, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by AppleMatt
Assuming I'm wrong and within the last few minutes it's been made available, what connection do you have to download (at least) a gig that fast?

AppleMatt
FTTH. It works well. You can get close to 100Mb/sec (12.5MB/sec) -- or about 90 seconds to DL a gig.

Sushi

jgp
Sep 2, 2003, 10:41 AM
It is my sincere hope that somewhere in the Panther code will be the ability to do what Macs could do in the 80's, which is pivot the display screen to portrait. Why this ability was lost going into OS X I do not know. Imagine iMacs that pivot (seems like a no brainer) and convertable powerbooks to tablet, etc.. Any body know the technical reasons why this has been a road block??!

Longey Nowze
Sep 2, 2003, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by slightly
But no. It's a surly Arab mumbling into his cellphone the whole journey, every time. Bah.

well... that's a bit racist... just cuz steve isn't available to make your dream come true you go and blame it on the taxi driver?! blame it on BILLY!

FriarTuck
Sep 2, 2003, 10:44 AM
I'm going to get in line at the Michigan Ave. store after work today. Please bring me Easy Cheese and charged 12" PB batteries when you get a chance.

Rincewind42
Sep 2, 2003, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by AhmedFaisal
This probably has been answered before but does anyone know if Xcode and the other Dev. Tools including the CLI stuff will be finally a part of the Install CD for the Client OS? Since PortsManager will be part of the OS now it would be nice. I do a lot of custom compiles of *nix Software on my machine and I always hated having to DL the Dev. Tools CD.
Cheers,

Ahmed

Uh... that's been included with the client install since 10.0... If you buy the CDs in the store, there is a sepearete Dev CD. If you buy a new computer the Dev CD is a disk image in your Applications Folder.

danielgrenell
Sep 2, 2003, 11:07 AM
BRING IT OOOOOOOON!!!!!!!!!!!

MarkCollette
Sep 2, 2003, 11:08 AM
With everyone saying that Panther is faster than Jaguar, even on some G3s, that made me wonder what the minimum requirements for Panther are?

I was just about to buy Jaguar for my new (second-hand) iMac 333 (some kind of light green color). I had heard that some people were suing because there was no hardware accelleration of graphics, but I don't really care, since I'm just trying to get a development box, so I'll be mostly typing on it.

Anyways, should I wait for Panther, or will it not even run on my machine? Mac OS 8.6 is getting painfull, so I'd like to not wait if Panther is futile.

gothamac
Sep 2, 2003, 11:15 AM
I have a 500DP running on 9 but really want to make the move to OSX with Panther.
Does anyone have advise on whether my system is powerful enough to make the switch, or will it be sluggish? I have a Rage 128 video card, will I need to update that? Thanks for any suggestions.

ImAlwaysRight
Sep 2, 2003, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by jgp
It is my sincere hope that somewhere in the Panther code will be the ability to do what Macs could do in the 80's, which is pivot the display screen to portrait. Why this ability was lost going into OS X I do not know. Imagine iMacs that pivot (seems like a no brainer) and convertable powerbooks to tablet, etc.. Any body know the technical reasons why this has been a road block??! I second this request. I have a 19" LCD display that pivots but to date have not been able to use this feature.

theRebel
Sep 2, 2003, 11:42 AM
If you buy a new G5 with a Radeon 9800 Pro video card then you will be able to pivot your monitor because the Radeon 9800 Pro includes "VERSAVISION" display rotation.

Requiring specific video hardware is obviously not as nice or convienent as having software support, but at least it is a functional option.

QuiteSure
Sep 2, 2003, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by gothamac
I have a 500DP running on 9 but really want to make the move to OSX with Panther.
Does anyone have advise on whether my system is powerful enough to make the switch, or will it be sluggish? I have a Rage 128 video card, will I need to update that? Thanks for any suggestions.

I've been running Jag on my 500DP since day 1 and have thoroughly enjoyed it. I recently upgraded vid card to a Nvidia GeForce4MX which you can get from OWC for @ $75, but I'm not sure that will make so much of a difference. What I think HAS made a difference was an upgrade to a Maxtor 120G HD 7200 rpm with an 8mb cache. With that on board, my DP 500 actually seems zippier at times than my DP 867, especially at startup.

henryblackman
Sep 2, 2003, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by Juventuz
I can't seem to get Toast 6 to work in Panther. It quits the installation process everytime.

That's because Panther hasn't been released yet. Likely Toast will need an update before it works... it's doing some system level things (like burning).

JayBee
Sep 2, 2003, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by MarkCollette
With everyone saying that Panther is faster than Jaguar, even on some G3s, that made me wonder what the minimum requirements for Panther are?

I was just about to buy Jaguar for my new (second-hand) iMac 333 (some kind of light green color). I had heard that some people were suing because there was no hardware accelleration of graphics, but I don't really care, since I'm just trying to get a development box, so I'll be mostly typing on it.

Anyways, should I wait for Panther, or will it not even run on my machine? Mac OS 8.6 is getting painfull, so I'd like to not wait if Panther is futile. Yup, I've got the dev seed running on a 366 iBook (the graphite one - 1st gen), and dang is it fast. It actually FEELS as fast as my G4 733 running Jag. Obviously that's totally subjective - apps don't open as fast, but the UI is top.

And all this crap about being QE only... my iBook runs exposé without problems, and it doesn't have QE as sure as god made little green apples ;)

So, my advice to you is hang fire for Panther. I can't wait to get it for my G4. Hell, who needs a G5 anyway? :D

Juventuz
Sep 2, 2003, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by henryblackman
That's because Panther hasn't been released yet. Likely Toast will need an update before it works... it's doing some system level things (like burning).

Obviously it hasn't been released yet. The point of beta testing is to see whether apps will work in the new OS, for me Toast is one of the ones not working. I do know of other Panther users that have used Toast and was wondering if one of them may have a patch or might have done something different.

ryaxnb
Sep 2, 2003, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by AhmedFaisal
This probably has been answered before but does anyone know if Xcode and the other Dev. Tools including the CLI stuff will be finally a part of the Install CD for the Client OS? Since PortsManager will be part of the OS now it would be nice. I do a lot of custom compiles of *nix Software on my machine and I always hated having to DL the Dev. Tools CD.
Cheers,

Ahmed
Generally they have another CD with dev. tools included in the package. If the computer comes with X, they have it on the Software Restore CDs.

ImAlwaysRight
Sep 2, 2003, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by theRebel
If you buy a new G5 with a Radeon 9800 Pro video card then you will be able to pivot your monitor because the Radeon 9800 Pro includes "VERSAVISION" display rotation.

Requiring specific video hardware is obviously not as nice or convienent as having software support, but at least it is a functional option. Are you talking about the retail ATI Radeon 9800 for Mac, or the OEM Apple Radeon 9800? I would imagine the retail card would come with the software necessary to provide display rotation. I question whether G5's with Radeon 9800 OEM would provide the software necessary to switch into portrait view mode. Even if the hardware supports it, you still need software to tell your computer you just rotated the display 90 degrees!

I have read ATI's retail 9800 cards come with software allowing extra features that are not on the OEM version of the 9800 Pro (not portrait view, specifically, but other features).

Well, I have the 9800 ordered in my dual 2.0, so we'll see if portrait view is allowed. Although it may have portrait view capability, if Apple does not incorporate this into the OS X software, I doubt it will be able to function.

ryaxnb
Sep 2, 2003, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by gothamac
I have a 500DP running on 9 but really want to make the move to OSX with Panther.
Does anyone have advise on whether my system is powerful enough to make the switch, or will it be sluggish? I have a Rage 128 video card, will I need to update that? Thanks for any suggestions.
Should be fine... I've heard of someone who runs X on a TiBook 400 and is generally pretty happy. The video card should be all right and might even support Quartz Extreme. All you might need is more RAM... if you have less than 256MB upgrade to at least 384MB.

Catfish_Man
Sep 2, 2003, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by ryaxnb
Should be fine... I've heard of someone who runs X on a TiBook 400 and is generally pretty happy. The video card should be all right and might even support Quartz Extreme. All you might need is more RAM... if you have less than 256MB upgrade to at least 384MB.

No, Rage anything does not support QE. However, it's not that big a deal. A dual 500 should run OSX just fine.

AppleMatt
Sep 2, 2003, 01:50 PM
For those that don't know, Quartz Extreme requires;

- AGP 2x or higher video card.
- Capable of textures other than the power of two.
- 16MB VRAM minimum, 32MB for full acceleration.

AppleMatt

henryblackman
Sep 2, 2003, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by AppleMatt
For those that don't know, Quartz Extreme requires;

- AGP 2x or higher video card.
- Capable of textures other than the power of two.
- 16MB VRAM minimum, 32MB for full acceleration.

AppleMatt

But of course it's possible to use hacks to get QE to work with PCI graphics cards with less video RAM. Mileage will vary of course, given this is not supported or intended usage.

Quartz in 10.2 brought us something else other than QE though - and that was highly optimised (in relative terms) code. Everything is faster than 10.1 without QE being turned on.

Panther indeed does the same thing. Quartz has been further optimised so speed improvements are seen across all supported machines, but by the speedy nature of QE (and the inability to further optimise something already super-fast) the best improvements will likely be seen on non-QE capable machines.

There is a question that will QE bring speed improvements on non-supported QE installations like it did with Jag?

AppleMatt
Sep 2, 2003, 02:05 PM
Yeah I wasn't going to mention "PCIExtreme" because of the QuickTime and DVD player problems with it, also confusing it with the official specs.

From what I've read, it's users of old hardware that have experienced the biggest boost with Panther, perhaps because Apple got such a slating for it.

AppleMatt

henryblackman
Sep 2, 2003, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by AppleMatt
Yeah I wasn't going to mention "PCIExtreme" because of the QuickTime and DVD player problems with it, also confusing it with the official specs.

From what I've read, it's users of old hardware that have experienced the biggest boost with Panther, perhaps because Apple got such a slating for it.

AppleMatt

Probably ;) I have to say though, I'm really chuffed that Apple keep improving OS X though. Even though they *have* to for whatever reasons ("slow" processors, no processor strategy because of Moto, expensive hardware, customer complaints, need to accelerate acceptance and migration to OS X etc...), I feel that if it was MS developing the OS, we wouldn't see any speed increases at all, we'd need to buy new machines.

All in all, my investment in this hardware (my gorgeous iMac 800 (17") and my iBook 500 and now 700Mhz) seems to get better and better as time goes on - contrary to what happens on the Wintel side of things. Makes me feel that my "switch", 3 years ago, was so definately the right choice.

I've used X on the iBook since 10.0 and the CDs that I was given (luckily) when I made my purchase at the Apple Store somewhere in the LA area; and it was usable (except for no DVD playback) from the start. It just gets better, easier and faster. What OS can meet that claim, despite whatever "slow", or "unusable" starting point they were supposed to have?

MacBandit
Sep 2, 2003, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by ImAlwaysRight
Are you talking about the retail ATI Radeon 9800 for Mac, or the OEM Apple Radeon 9800? I would imagine the retail card would come with the software necessary to provide display rotation. I question whether G5's with Radeon 9800 OEM would provide the software necessary to switch into portrait view mode. Even if the hardware supports it, you still need software to tell your computer you just rotated the display 90 degrees!

I have read ATI's retail 9800 cards come with software allowing extra features that are not on the OEM version of the 9800 Pro (not portrait view, specifically, but other features).

Well, I have the 9800 ordered in my dual 2.0, so we'll see if portrait view is allowed. Although it may have portrait view capability, if Apple does not incorporate this into the OS X software, I doubt it will be able to function.

I have the ATI9800 Pro in my MDD PowerMac and it's fantastic. To answer your question the retail card does come with an ATI Displays control app that allows versavission and forcing programs to use AA and AnisotopicFiltering. I have done a lot of reading about the ATI9800 in the last few weeks and the word straight from ATI is that the OEM ATI9800 is not supported and is not planned to be supported by the ATI Diplays App and the OEM version will not have the ability to force AA or have versavision unless Apple rights there own program to do so.

Versavision is pretty cool but it's giving me a crick in my neck on my AppleStudio 17 CRT.:)

WM.
Sep 2, 2003, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by mim
Most places I've been use day/month/year for general use (I've not been to North America). I'm sure the reason for this is purely historical (Roman, eg. the Ides (sp?) of March)
Ugh, Roman dates...makes my brain hurt just thinking about them (even though I'll have to relearn the system all over again starting the day after tomorrow...).

Anyway, you may be right that we get the day-month-year convention from the Romans. Generally they would write something like "Kal. Sept. 2756 A.U.C." That's probably not exactly right, but you get the idea. :) And, since I think Kal. (Kalends) is the first of the month, the Kalends of September 2756 years Ab Urbe Condita (from the founding of the city [Rome] in 753 B.C.) should be yesterday. Point is, they wrote the day before the month. :)

FWIW
WM

AppleMatt
Sep 2, 2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by henryblackman
I feel that if it was MS developing the OS, we wouldn't see any speed increases at all, we'd need to buy new machines.


Definitely, all my Windows upgrades have resulted in a faster experience, but I've had to upgrade the machine at the same time. Almost all of Apple's software updates (not just OS, but QuickTime for example) keep getting quicker (or performance and stability updates as Apple put it). Windows just seems to take more resources, years ago I upgraded to WMP7 on PC, and went back to 6.4 the same day, it was terribly slow.

AppleMatt

MacsRgr8
Sep 2, 2003, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by MacBandit
I have the ATI9800 Pro in my MDD PowerMac and it's fantastic. To answer your question the retail card does come with an ATI Displays control app that allows versavission and forcing programs to use AA and AnisotopicFiltering. I have done a lot of reading about the ATI9800 in the last few weeks and the word straight from ATI is that the OEM ATI9800 is not supported and is not planned to be supported by the ATI Diplays App and the OEM version will not have the ability to force AA or have versavision unless Apple rights there own program to do so.

Versavision is pretty cool but it's giving me a crick in my neck on my AppleStudio 17 CRT.:)

Just got my Radeon 9800 Retail today! :) :cool:
Had to wait about 5 weeks for it over here in Holland, but OMG it's worth the wait! What an excellent card. I use it in my Dual 1.25 (FW 800). I had the Radeon 8500, 9000, nVidia GeForce 4 Ti 4600, and finally the Radeon 9800 installed in it.
This is by far, far, far, the best grfx card for the Mac. And a lot cheaper than the GeForce 4 Ti card. No idea why that one is still so expensive.... Sure, it's a good card, but not that gr8. Worse drivers for OS X than ATI, thus performing only slightly better than the Radeon 9000. Also ATi doesn't have problems with MOHAA / SpearHead, as nVidia cards do...
Whatever, I'm so very happy with this one! Had to find a power cable for it... Luckily it came with that Y-shaped cabel, need it.
If you got a fast Mac, and like gaming then this Radeon 9800 is definitely for you! Go ATi!!!

SiliconAddict
Sep 2, 2003, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by henryblackman
I feel that if it was MS developing the OS, we wouldn't see any speed increases at all, we'd need to buy new machines.


They don't call it Wintel because its a snappy name. ;)

Just wait for Longhorn. They are doing a multi tiered approach for sys requirements where to get the full graphics experience you need X hardware otherwise it throttles down the graphics and some of the services. Rumor has it to get the full blow experience you are going to NEED a graphics card with 128MB of VRAM. God only knows the CPU and RAM requirements.

This is part of the reason I'm going Mac. The hardware ages like a fine wine. Unlike wintel hardware that ages like milk sitting in the middle of Arizona in July.

MacBandit
Sep 2, 2003, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by SiliconAddict
This is part of the reason I'm going Mac. The hardware ages like a fine wine. Unlike wintel hardware that ages like milk sitting in the middle of Arizona in July.


Nothing like a good mental image to get the point across.:D

AppleMatt
Sep 2, 2003, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by MacsRgr8
Also ATi doesn't have problems with MOHAA / SpearHead, as nVidia cards do...


Does that extend to Ghost Recon? I'm having shocking performance with that.

I've always complained about nVidia drivers, but GR really did it for me.

AppleMatt

julzmon
Sep 2, 2003, 05:20 PM
I've searched for this question with out any results.

I have an older G4 400 with a slow video card that does not use Quartz extreme.
If I upgrade the video card will it make my machine faster with Quartz taking on the load of graphics?

Is there a link on this discussion?

thanks

Jul

haveblue
Sep 2, 2003, 06:00 PM
toast 6 works fine. install it in jaguar and run it in panther.

MacBandit
Sep 2, 2003, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by julzmon
I've searched for this question with out any results.

I have an older G4 400 with a slow video card that does not use Quartz extreme.
If I upgrade the video card will it make my machine faster with Quartz taking on the load of graphics?

Is there a link on this discussion?

thanks

Jul

If your machine has an AGP graphics slot then yes QE will make a big difference in overall system GUI performance. If your machine doesn't have an AGP slot then you would have to use the QE hack and from my experience the results are mixed some good some bad.

Nermal
Sep 3, 2003, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by fatfish
Also nobody here refers to the 11-9 incident.


I don't know about in the UK, but here in NZ most of the coverage of that event came from CNN, which of course is American. Once you hear the phrase "9/11" enough, you don't even think about what you're saying

Besides, it was in the morning of 12/9 :p

macnor
Sep 3, 2003, 05:32 AM
In the latest buildes including 7b53 quartz extreme does not work on my retail geforce 4mx 32mb agp card. It is very disapointing and panther does not work well on my computer without it. I hope apple does not plan to refuse us quartz extreme just because we upgraded instead of buying a new mac.

AppleMatt
Sep 3, 2003, 06:01 AM
Originally posted by Nermal
I don't know about in the UK, but here in NZ most of the coverage of that event came from CNN, which of course is American. Once you hear the phrase "9/11" enough, you don't even think about what you're saying

In the UK all the channels were streaming info, most of it directly from American news bulletins, and the American news channels were exactly the same as you guys had. We refer to it as 9/11, like you say, it's now so commonplace it doesn't mean the 11th of September anymore, it means the day the world trade centers were attacked.

Originally posted by macnor
In the latest buildes including 7b53 quartz extreme does not work on my retail geforce 4mx 32mb agp card. It is very disapointing and panther does not work well on my computer without it. I hope apple does not plan to refuse us quartz extreme just because we upgraded instead of buying a new mac.

Could you explain that further? It doesn't really make sense to me.

AppleMatt

macnor
Sep 3, 2003, 07:41 AM
I first installed b44 on my pismo and it worked very well. In the last days I have installed 7b49 two times and 7b53 once. It just does not work well. Scolling does almost not work at all, if i move windows around they get messed up so I can´t see whats inside. If I try to change the screen resolution it goes black and I have to restart. Since all of the trouble had to with the graphics I checked to see if quartz extreme was on (accelerated) and it wasn´t. The geforce 4mx works great in jaguar so this must be bug in panther or apple plans to not support retail graphic cards.

Hitman
Sep 3, 2003, 08:25 AM
I have had the same problems with the panther builds. With my screen becoming screwed up when I try to move a window. I also have had the screen go black on me also. I have a G4 800 Geforce 4MX 32MB. I hope they fix this problem. It has been like this since the first seed.

wms121
Sep 3, 2003, 04:35 PM
the Virginia Tech supercomputer item is very interesting..

1) YES they are using huge G5 boxes, not special modified
Xserves..

2) Black Cat Linux and Suse Linux were mentioned, not OSX.

3) "Apple jumped.." at the chance to demo 1100 box supercluster
to make the top 500 list...


hmmmm...

let's see developer's conference demo of 64 bit stuff in May..

Some item's for sale in June-July (64 bit Java by MacWorld?)..

and...

Late November full 64 bit products released..apps, OS's and
compilers...

When 64 bit OSX?

When another "Virginia Tech" situation shows up and big Steve
goes for it.

<---is getting his TransMeta proto board for the TM 8000

cynikal
Sep 4, 2003, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by fabsgwu
This is the most annoying problem. I really hope they fix it, as it's been with us (and widely known) all through 10.2

is THAT why my balance goes off center so many times?!? Man i could never pin point WHY it was doing that!! At first it always seem like one of my speakers is dying/dead.

danielbaars
Sep 4, 2003, 05:35 PM
I've installed 7B53 on my iBook (800mHz) and while I'm very pleased with the speed increase I'm also surprised by how buggy it still is: lots of application crashes, especially Safari...

Is anybody else experiencing this?

MacBandit
Sep 4, 2003, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by danielbaars
I've installed 7B53 on my iBook (800mHz) and while I'm very pleased with the speed increase I'm also surprised by how buggy it still is: lots of application crashes, especially Safari...

Is anybody else experiencing this?

Well you really can't blame all the application crashes on Panther. The core system of OSX has been changed much more then it was from 10.1 to Jaguar and Jaguar alone broke a lot of programs. I fully expect there to be a lot of application updates coming to fully support the changes made in Panther. Also I wouldn't blame Panther for all the crashes in Safari either as the version of Safari included with Panther is under development and is known to have bugs.

theRebel
Sep 4, 2003, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by danielbaars
I've installed 7B53 on my iBook (800mHz) and while I'm very pleased with the speed increase I'm also surprised by how buggy it still is: lots of application crashes, especially Safari...

Is anybody else experiencing this?

I have not experienced very many crashes with 7B53.

Did you do an upgrade, archive, or clean install?

danielbaars
Sep 5, 2003, 02:51 AM
Originally posted by theRebel
Did you do an upgrade, archive, or clean install?

I did a clean install...

I wasn't really blaming Panther for anything (yet ;-) ), I guess I got the wrong impression from the posts on this forum: it'll be a little while before Panther is something you can use on your workmachine.

A lot of handy little shareware doesn't work anymore: ASM & FruitMenu for example.

Nonetheless: Panther is a big step forward!

MacBandit
Sep 5, 2003, 03:27 AM
Originally posted by danielbaars
I did a clean install...

I wasn't really blaming Panther for anything (yet ;-) ), I guess I got the wrong impression from the posts on this forum: it'll be a little while before Panther is something you can use on your workmachine.

A lot of handy little shareware doesn't work anymore: ASM & FruitMenu for example.

Nonetheless: Panther is a big step forward!

Most likely those shareware programs will continue not to work until after Panther is released and the programers update there software.