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I-Works

N

nadinbrzezinski

macrumors member
Original poster
Oct 4, 2007
44
0
Well folks, installed and running it. And there are several things that do concern me (and thankfully the vista machine has a copy of Word '07 so that should not be too much of a problem when final production finally comes)

First the good things:

It does open complex word documents... such as the manual I am working right now... it is complex...

But alas I-Works does not handle frames, so lets see if this is just a nomemclature problem or not. It converted my frames to something else, so when I take this file to my other computer lets see how mangled the file is. And trust me, if it is, you will be the first ones to know.. and if it is.. well no biggie, go down and get an older version of word that runs with cross office... cheaper than word for the mac, truly.

:)

Oh that nice package with Works... has a copy of Word '03 in there.

But if you want this for a power user... it lacks some critical things...

Indexes anyone? Now for anybody putting a complex document that needs indexes I would not recommed this program for primary work. No way, no how.

Search and replace is fairly weak, and againt this is a problem producing complex documents.

The grammar checker is weak (that is why I got Grammarian, by the way)

So at this point I would not recommend this program for anything beyond home use, and it is certainly sufficient for the great american novel. and probably most school work. But if you need to add an index on it... this is NOT your software.

Your alternatives are as follows:

Word: Yes I hear the groaning by many, even me... and if Apple wants to compete, they'd better take a good look at their main competitor and I hate to say it, but go there. Some basic things such as indexes are kind of critical in the enterprise setting.

Open Office: And no, I am not talking about Neo, I am talking about Open Office, which will handle frames and will handle indexes... I played with Neo for a few and didn't like it, one bit... and it was the weaknesses in formating and other things such as what I just pointed

http://www.openoffice.org/about_us/new.html

Is open office perfect? No... the notes feature is more than just weak on it, but it will do everything else fairly well.

Hell I may just download it today (used it for years in the Windows machine, until '07 came about) and just run it.
 
nadinbrzezinski said:
But alas I-Works does not handle frames, so lets see if this is just a nomemclature problem or not. It converted my frames to something else, so when I take this file to my other computer lets see how mangled the file is. And trust me, if it is, you will be the first ones to know.. and if it is.. well no biggie, go down and get an older version of word that runs with cross office... cheaper than word for the mac, truly.
Click to expand...

Pages and Word are not direct competitors. Pages is more of a page-layout app. It is not intended to be Microsoft Word. And what is a frame exactly?

nadinbrzezinski said:
Indexes anyone? Now for anybody putting a complex document that needs indexes I would not recommed this program for primary work. No way, no how.
Click to expand...

You mean, like a dynamically created table of contents? Pages does that just fine...

nadinbrzezinski said:
Search and replace is fairly weak, and againt this is a problem producing complex documents.
Click to expand...

What about it is weak?

nadinbrzezinski said:
The grammar checker is weak (that is why I got Grammarian, by the way)
Click to expand...

I don't even think Pages has a grammar checker.

nadinbrzezinski said:
So at this point I would not recommend this program for anything beyond home use, and it is certainly sufficient for the great american novel. and probably most school work. But if you need to add an index on it... this is NOT your software.
Click to expand...

I think you're missing the point of Pages.

Also, its iWork, not I-Works. And there is more than just Pages. Keynote is so far ahead of PowerPoint its not even funny. Keynote alone is worth $79.
 
dpaanlka said:
Pages and Word are not direct competitors. Pages is more of a page-layout app. It is not intended to be Microsoft Word. And what is a frame exactly?



You mean, like a dynamically created table of contents? Pages does that just fine...



What about it is weak?



I don't even think Pages has a grammar checker.



I think you're missing the point of Pages.

Also, its iWork, not I-Works. And there is more than just Pages. Keynote is so far ahead of PowerPoint its not even funny. Keynote alone is worth $79.
Click to expand...

No I do not mean a dynamically created table of contents. THAT is standard in many a word processor out there... and if it didn't do that, even in '06 that is bad... but it does.

I mean an index, what goes in the back

:)

And I don't use presentation software, so that doesn't matter to me. I use a word processor to produce complex documents...

And yes the program has a grammar checker... which by the way, Word '07 comes with one as well, a good one. But yes, there is a grammar checker...

By the way, you will not have me go over Numbers either, I don't use that either that much.

:)

Once again, if this suite is meant to compete in the enterprise setting, keynote will not be good enough... they need to hit this out of the park with all included apps and do it well.

The standard is Office.
 
nadinbrzezinski said:
The standard is Office.
Click to expand...

Well, then, why don't you just stick with that to create your highly complex documents.

Pages, Keynote, and Numbers all have much more flexible layout and graphic capabilities than their Office counterparts. For some people, that is more important, and thats what iWork is for. The visual impact of documents created in iWork '08 is outstanding.

I really don't think iWork is meant to directly compete with Office (except for Keynote). It is better for different things.
 
dpaanlka said:
Well, then, why don't you just stick with that to create your highly complex documents.

Pages, Keynote, and Numbers all have much more flexible layout and graphic capabilities than their Office counterparts. For some people, that is more important, and thats what iWork is for. The visual impact of documents created in iWork '08 is outstanding.
Click to expand...

Sorry if you didn't like the review

But once again, the standard in development is word... and most people ask for documents to be submited in either word or more rarely RTF formats, and there are good valid reasons for that... market penetration

At one time it was corel... then there were the good ol' days of Lotus and Wordstar

Been around the block a little.

That is why I said, if you need a HIGHLY COMPLEX document with indexes (which are not that hard to implement) then this is NOT your suite.

If they add those... well they will have something that will allow writers to write long complex documents... and will make it more atractive for managers

In other words, something that will allow more MACs to go into the enterprise environment. And sales are good, I 'spose

It is fine for 90% of what you may need it... hell even 100%, but not being able to produce an index is going to hurt them.
 
psychofreak said:
So what about Find & Replace is weak?
Click to expand...
Ran it and did not find some words I needed to change... or found them in a spotty way

The document is only 80K words long... so that is a good test sized document

:D

Will know how well it goes back to workd this afternoon, or by tomorrow

For the record I know I cannot open it on Open Office since the windows version did weird things to it at one point
 
nadinbrzezinski said:
Sorry if you didn't like the review
Click to expand...

It wasn't really a review though...

"Pages doesn't have an obscure feature that few people use, so therefore iWork is horrible, regardless of how much it excels past Office in other key areas. Office is the standard. Office is the standard."

What kind of *review* is that? What did you download the iWork trial and use it for 3 minutes before you came up with that?
 
psychofreak said:
So what about Find & Replace is weak?
Click to expand...

Some complain that it doesn't allow boolean searching, as if that's a common requirement.

Pages now has a sort-of grammar checker (proofreader). It suggests alternatives for some expressions and phrases. Personally, I've never cared for grammar or style checkers, but I suppose some people like them. I suppose I'll give Pages' proofreader a chance and see it if changes my mind.

It's always amusing when someone finds a somewhat obscure Word feature which Pages lacks, and then declares Pages unfit for anything but "home" use.
 
IJ Reilly said:
Personally, I've never cared for grammar or style checkers, but I suppose some people like them.
Click to expand...

Agreed, I've never paid attention to grammar checkers. I guess thats why I never noticed Pages having one. I think my grammar is just fine, thank you.

IJ Reilly said:
It's always amusing when someone finds a somewhat obscure Word feature which Pages lacks, and then declares Pages unfit for anything but "home" use.
Click to expand...

Amusing yes, but also a little frustrating for those who use Pages daily, and not just for the home.

EricNau said:
Just curious, anyone know why Page's default font is Helvetica? ...Seems like a stupid choice to me. :confused:
Click to expand...

What's stupid about it? Helvetica is a lovely font. I think that was also the default font for AppleWorks, which may explain the hold-over to iWork.
 
dpaanlka said:
What's stupid about it? Helvetica is a lovely font. I think that was also the default font for AppleWorks, which may explain the hold-over to iWork.
Click to expand...
Don't get me wrong, it's a great font, but it's sans-serif, and therefore seems like a bad choice for a default font. ...If I'm going to type an essay, or a letter, or an article, I'll most likely need a serif font.
 
EricNau said:
Don't get me wrong, it's a great font, but it's sans-serif, and therefore seems like a bad choice for a default font. ...If I'm going to type an essay, or a letter, or an article, I'll most likely need a serif font.
Click to expand...

I don't really think there's any law about serif or sans-serif fonts. I've typed all my essays in the last two years using the default Pages font and none of my professors have said anything.
 
Your post is quite funny actually...

nadinbrzezinski said:
Well folks, installed and running it. And there are several things that do concern me (and thankfully the vista machine has a copy of Word '07 so that should not be too much of a problem when final production finally comes)
Click to expand...

You have the right to use whatever you want but I'm always amazed why people are switching from PC to Mac and still use Vista and basic office apps on their computer...:eek:

nadinbrzezinski said:
First the good things:

It does open complex word documents... such as the manual I am working right now... it is complex...
Click to expand...

Right...quite impressed about that BTW.

nadinbrzezinski said:
It converted my frames to something else,
Click to expand...

Same question here...what do you mean by frames.

nadinbrzezinski said:
But if you want this for a power user... it lacks some critical things...

Indexes anyone? Now for anybody putting a complex document that needs indexes I would not recommed this program for primary work. No way, no how.
Click to expand...

LOL...that's right it appears that you can't do indexes. However, I'm wondering how many people use indexes on a regular basis...I'm 35 YO and never had to use that so far in my life. Honestly I don't think the lack of this function is ''critical''. But if you need it, it's clear that Pages is not for you.

nadinbrzezinski said:
Search and replace is fairly weak, and againt this is a problem producing complex documents.
Click to expand...

HA ! HA ! That's your best one...can you please elaborate a bit on that one because I don't see how it can be weak...it's a find and replace function. So far...it found and replaced everything I asked Pages to do....

nadinbrzezinski said:
The grammar checker is weak (that is why I got Grammarian, by the way)
Click to expand...

Another good one...I don't know for English but my first language is French. Without insulting anybody, everybody knows that french grammar is very complex and much more than some other languages. I just tried a 90 pages document in the grammar checker...and actually it impressed me.

nadinbrzezinski said:
So at this point I would not recommend this program for anything beyond home use, and it is certainly sufficient for the great american novel. and probably most school work. But if you need to add an index on it... this is NOT your software.
Click to expand...

HA!! HA!! So it's a good software for everything but indexes...that's not that bad for a 79$ package bundled with a spreadsheet app (Numbers) and an amazing presentation app (Keynote). Also Pages is a not too bad page layout app... and it handles quite well most Word documents...Really not that bad for 79$ IMO.
 
dpaanlka said:
It wasn't really a review though...

"Pages doesn't have an obscure feature that few people use, so therefore iWork is horrible, regardless of how much it excels past Office in other key areas. Office is the standard. Office is the standard."

What kind of *review* is that? What did you download the iWork trial and use it for 3 minutes before you came up with that?
Click to expand...

Been using I works for the last two and a half days exclusively

Do you like broad brushes that much and assume people will only like things becuase they are made by company A and not company B? Hell, I worship so much at MS altar that this is why I went ahead and replaced my laptop for a Mac... since VISTA is a dog.

I pointed to some weaknesess from the POV of the power user, I happen to be one.

And if I were to be the deciding voice in what office application to buy for a business that happens to have document production in its pipeline, wait I do that, it does not fit the needs fully

If you want it to write a general letter, it is admirable in that sense

If you need to lay out a hand out, it does that admirably

But it does not do indexes... something I, and many other folks out there, need and use regularly, Hell, even the Apple People use them in the manuals.

Nor does it do good boolean searches, which by the way, are far more common in the need that what you may classify as a specialized need. Hell, WRITERS, yep, FICTION writers, use universal search and replace commonly.

As I said, no biggie, I have the monster on the other machine, and it does ALL THOSE THINGS admirably well. But there are some things that it does not do, and it should.

Sorry, I am not one to praise companies blindly. These are mere tools, and like all tools if they work they will get used...

And I works has a use for me... first drafts, second drafts, third drafts, but hardly final layout.

Not even as a publisher tool, to be brutally honest.
 
nadinbrzezinski said:
Been using I works for the last two and a half days exclusively

Do you like broad brushes that much and assume people will only like things becuase they are made by company A and not company B? Hell, I worship so much at MS altar that this is why I went ahead and replaced my laptop for a Mac... since VISTA is a dog.

I pointed to some weaknesess from the POV of the power user, I happen to be one.

And if I were to be the deciding voice in what office application to buy for a business that happens to have document production in its pipeline, wait I do that, it does not fit the needs fully

If you want it to write a general letter, it is admirable in that sense

If you need to lay out a hand out, it does that admirably

But it does not do indexes... something I, and many other folks out there, need and use regularly, Hell, even the Apple People use them in the manuals.

Nor does it do good boolean searches, which by the way, are far more common in the need that what you may classify as a specialized need. Hell, WRITERS, yep, FICTION writers, use universal search and replace commonly.

As I said, no biggie, I have the monster on the other machine, and it does ALL THOSE THINGS admirably well. But there are some things that it does not do, and it should.

Sorry, I am not one to praise companies blindly. These are mere tools, and like all tools if they work they will get used...

And I works has a use for me... first drafts, second drafts, third drafts, but hardly final layout.

Not even as a publisher tool, to be brutally honest.
Click to expand...

It's not I works, it's iWork.
 
Speaking as someone who uses Pages to do complex contract documents with all sorts of exhibits, tables, etc. and multi-column whitepapers for my business, I'd have to disagree with the idea that Pages is only for "home use." In fact, I've found that Pages is much more intuitive and is faster than MS Word '04.
 
nadinbrzezinski said:
Been using I works for the last two and a half days exclusively
Click to expand...

Hardly enough time to experience all the features of Pages.

nadinbrzezinski said:
Do you like broad brushes that much and assume people will only like things becuase they are made by company A and not company B?
Click to expand...

Do you?

nadinbrzezinski said:
I pointed to some weaknesess from the POV of the power user, I happen to be one.
Click to expand...

I consider myself a Pages power-user. I've written 80+ page reports full of images and graphs and complex formatting. I would never want to do that in Word ever again. How does that make Pages a light "for home use" product?

nadinbrzezinski said:
And if I were to be the deciding voice in what office application to buy for a business that happens to have document production in its pipeline, wait I do that, it does not fit the needs fully
Click to expand...

That is so obviously not what Pages is meant for. I don't want Microsoft Word's boatloads of obscure pointless crap. I want the high-quality output and ease of Pages.

nadinbrzezinski said:
If you want it to write a general letter, it is admirable in that sense
Click to expand...

A general letter?

nadinbrzezinski said:
But it does not do indexes... something I, and many other folks out there, need and use regularly, Hell, even the Apple People use them in the manuals.
Click to expand...

Again... not what Pages is for.

nadinbrzezinski said:
As I said, no biggie, I have the monster on the other machine, and it does ALL THOSE THINGS admirably well.
Click to expand...

And there are lots of things that the Office apps just plain suck at, which we've touched on already, but you seem to marginalize as somehow not appropriate for important work.

nadinbrzezinski said:
Sorry, I am not one to praise companies blindly.
Click to expand...

The only person praising anything blindly is you - by belittling the many features of the iWork suite that you admittedly don't even know about or understand how to use.

nadinbrzezinski said:
And I works has a use for me... first drafts, second drafts, third drafts, but hardly final layout.
Click to expand...

How can you work in this industry and continue to completely destroy the name iWork, even after people pointed it out?

nadinbrzezinski said:
Not even as a publisher tool, to be brutally honest.
Click to expand...

What does that even mean? Professional-grade page-layout? Thats what Quark and InDesign are for.
 
Oh and one more thing

indexes may not be common, but are used

But search and replace? It is far more common than you think... writers of all stripes use it.

This is a tool... like anything else in your quiver

The final test for any tool is... does it do what I need it to do?

If it does... fine.

If it does not... there are alternatives

But remember, these ARE TOOLS... nothing to worship at, and like ALL tools they have faults to them.

ALL TOOLS... no TOOL is perfect

But I am amazed whenever anybody points to a problem how people come out of the woodwork with the incredible need to defend a TOOL.

Hell, if producing long complex documents was not part of what I did every day... (with indexes) this might serve all my needs... alas I need it do to a little more... and asking for index implementation is not obscure or rare

And hells bells, asking for a robust search and replace is not asking for the moon...

Damn...

:mad:

It never ceases to amaze me...

I guess it is human nature.

Oh and I will stand by what I said... if you need to produce complex documents THIS IS NOT the program to do it, especially if you need to have INDEXES.

have a good day.
 
dpaanlka said:
I don't really think there's any law about serif or sans-serif fonts. I've typed all my essays in the last two years using the default Pages font and none of my professors have said anything.
Click to expand...
In a way, there is. The MLA and APA (and I believe CMS) style guides all require a serif font (most commonly, Times New Roman).
 
nadinbrzezinski said:
It never ceases to amaze me...
Click to expand...

I guess everyone is offended by you insisting the documents we're all creating somehow aren't complex or professional because they don't have indexes. That and your posts are riddled with bad grammar, which is normally overlooked but is frustratingly ironic given the context of this discussion.

EricNau said:
The MLA and APA (and I believe CMS) style guides all require a serif font (most commonly, Times New Roman).
Click to expand...

If thats the case, my professors aren't as strict on APA as they say they are! :eek: Two years and nobody has ever said anything?

I do think sans-serif looks better, though.
 
Not quite

iDeal said:
It that because they are a bit narrow minded? After-all we all know that a document must be of higher quality and more formal if written in a font with serifs.
Click to expand...


Academic settings tend to follow certain rules on writing, and style pages

In reality most professors do not know a times new roman from Seriff font by heart, but they have style sheets

In this particular case it is the APA

My college had a style sheet as well for the thesis. I had a pro do it...

By the way many publishing houses also have style sheets. It makes it easier to calculate things like page number...
 
dpaanlka said:
I don't really think there's any law about serif or sans-serif fonts. I've typed all my essays in the last two years using the default Pages font and none of my professors have said anything.
Click to expand...

Why use the default font? The whole idea of Pages is to create your own styles. Apple provides so many better choices in fonts and has made creating styles and templates in Pages so painless.

I always wonder 99% of all the Word documents I receive use only Ariel or Times. That's actually one of my beefs with Word -- it's managed to turn our computers back into typewriters!
 
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