UK Govt set to introduce 20mph speed cameras

[Devil's Refugee]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7046200.stm

WTF :mad:

The UK is no longer a place to drive in, the Govt. thinks adding cameras (why stop at 20mph, why not introduce them for EVERY speed limit in place FFS?! <sarcasm>) is the way forward (for boosting the coffers maybe!)

Country has really gone to the dogs in the last 10 years. This isn't progress. Pointless owning a car here tbh.

I can't wait for them to introduce satellite tracking..... :rolleyes:

[EricNau]

You guys don't use mph over there, do you? :confused:

Anyway, 20 mph is pretty slow. The default over here is 25 mph in residential areas (unless 30 is posted), or near schools if children are present. Considering the differences in traffic and the number of pedestrians and bicyclist, however, 20 maybe the best choice.

Although I am surprised to see how many European countries rely on speed cameras ...I've only ever seen them for busy traffic lights over here.

[Blue Velvet]

No, this is a study to explore the possibility... and personally, I'd be pleased because speeding on an open motorway and 'A' road is one thing, speeding in a built-up city centre is far more hazardous to other users of the street.

I'll give you two examples. The shortish street outside my flat is a rat-run between two major London streets, it has cars parked all along both sides so it's often not wide enough for two cars to pass. It has two schools, a busy estate with lots of kids living on it, a church and an old person's home along it... yet, some twunts seem to enjoy barreling down it at over 40mph, sometimes even faster, oblivious to the hazard.

The other one is a pedestrian crossing on the Caledonian Road which drivers accelerate towards after rounding a blind corner; there's one of these in each direction. And what's more, this pedestrian crossing is used by schoolkids each day... and I've seen drivers tooting their horns at people using the crossing while they're hitting easily 60mph coming towards it.

So, let's put others' safety before others' selfish needs to speed dangerously in built-up areas.

[sushi]

Cameras are probably cheaper than policemen monitoring the roads. Plus it frees up the resources used in speed enforcement for other tasks.

BTW, we have plenty of cameras on the highways over here in Japan.

[Blue Velvet]

What do others think a reasonable speed limit for a street like this should be? Especially if the weather's poor, which it isn't in this picture.

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/2/22/Uk-eton-high-street.jpg

[Nermal]

You guys don't use mph over there, do you? :confused:

They're only half metric over there :rolleyes:

[bartelby]

On streets like that, or outside schools or in residential streets I'll drive between 20 and 25mph. Sometimes even slower.

They're only half metric over there :rolleyes:

Now the EU have given up trying to impose metric weights I'd say we were 1/4 metric.

[Leemo]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7046200.stm

WTF :mad:

The UK is no longer a place to drive in, the Govt. thinks adding cameras (why stop at 20mph, why not introduce them for EVERY speed limit in place FFS?! <sarcasm>) is the way forward (for boosting the coffers maybe!)

Country has really gone to the dogs in the last 10 years. This isn't progress. Pointless owning a car here tbh.

I can't wait for them to introduce satellite tracking..... :rolleyes:

They're not 'set to introduce' - it's merely a report about the possibility.

I drive, and personally on some inner city roads a 20mph speed limit is about right. Might not be fun, but if it saves lives then I'm all for it. Especially when I saw a friend of mine get hit by a car a few years back in the town centre that can't have been doing more than about 35. Not a fun experience.

-Leemo

[Jaffa Cake]

Here in Hull we currently have more 20mph zones in operation than any other city in the country. Just another indication of what trailblazers we are here. ;)

Point is, according to this (http://slower-speeds.org.uk/ks_sec5.htm) it's reckoned that since the zones were introduced crashes within them have fallen by 56%, while the number of people killed and seriously injured has fallen by 90%. Overall, I think less people being killed on the roads is a good thing but I'm a bit odd like that.

[bartelby]

Here in Hull we currently have more 20mph zones in operation than any other city in the country. Just another indication of what trailblazers we are here. ;)

But getting a canoe to go over 20 is pretty hard isn't it?;)

[Jaffa Cake]

But getting a canoe to go over 20 is pretty hard isn't it?;)It's the people who have to paint the road markings that I feel sorry for...

[scotthayes]

What do others think a reasonable speed limit for a street like this should be? Especially if the weather's poor, which it isn't in this picture.

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/2/22/Uk-eton-high-street.jpg

The speed limit of course would be 30mph, but what people forget is that 30mph is the maximum speed. I was taught that although 30, 40, 50 60, or 70 mph may be the maximum speed you always drive to the conditions of the road. So in the case of the picture 15-20mph would seem about right.

[Devil's Refugee]

I'm not disputing the fact they need to be set, it's why they need to be enforced with cameras. Does a fine really slow people down ? All people do is slow down for the 20 or so yards for the tracking then speed back up. It's a false study and does not reflect accurate driving behaviour in the UK.

If anyone's driven abroad before, they all drive like loons in europe but I feel no more threatened or less safe than I do in the UK (in fact, I feel worse in the UK because drivers are that erratic you can't predict behaviour.....why ? because there are so many bl00dy laws to try and get around)

:rolleyes:

[xUKHCx]

Well with the traffic levels these days i'd be pleased to get to 20mph most times. However i do lots o f driving at night and would hate being restricted to 20mph when all the kiddies+everyone else is in bed.

I recently got back from Malaysia and Thailand so i think we should introduce millions of mopeds which ace actually family vehicles. I once saw 5 people on one:eek:

[macboy62]

Cameras are probably cheaper than policemen monitoring the roads. Plus it frees up the resources used in speed enforcement for other tasks.

BTW, we have plenty of cameras on the highways over here in Japan.

Hope you don't mind me saying this but I live near Tokyo and have seen very few speed cameras around. Driving in Japan I would say most drivers travel around 10kph over the limit and some are just speed freaks. I have only ever seen cops opperating speed traps on select sections of by-passes and expressways (motorways).

Having said that the speed limits in Japan are quite slow. e.g. and mountain road near my home away from housing and juctions with good visability is posted at 40kph!

[Jaffa Cake]

IAll people do is slow down for the 20 or so yards for the tracking then speed back up.That’s a fair point. On that note I should mention that the 20mph zones around here don’t generally seem to be enforced by speed cameras – instead, methods are in place to physically slow down the traffic, for example speed bumps and little twisty bits of road.

[xUKHCx]

That’s a fair point. On that note I should mention that the 20mph zones around here don’t generally seem to be enforced by speed cameras – instead, methods are in place to physically slow down the traffic, for example speed bumps and little twisty bits of road.

Speed bumps are terrible, i feel for the emergency response drives who have to deal with these.

[scotthayes]

maybe we should all have a tracker in the car and every time you go over the speed limit the government just takes the money from your bank account.

OK that was a joke, but there has to be something done about the speed some people drive at through towns and areas where kids are. At the same time I feel the speed limit on the motorway should be increased to 85mph (136 kph)

[Dagless]

If it will help save lives then I'm all for it. Our road is barely wide enough to support dual lanes, yet (I feel now is this time to use this) twunts feel it necessary to drive fast in either direction. Usually resulting in yet another closure for an accident.

It's not so bad when they pick each other off, but if a pedestrian or a non-speeding car is involved it's a bit tragic.

Bloody speeders.

[Jaffa Cake]

Speed bumps are terrible, i feel for the emergency response drives who have to deal with these.The speed bumps are fine, it’s the kids pelting them with bricks that they have to watch out for...

[iBlue]

What do others think a reasonable speed limit for a street like this should be? Especially if the weather's poor, which it isn't in this picture.

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/2/22/Uk-eton-high-street.jpg

hehe, I think I know that street (from the visit to windsor and eton not too long ago)

Sad thing is, I bet they don't put speed cameras on streets like that, they'll put them somewhere that is far less logical.

On motorways (and many other places) I've seen the speed limit drop for no apparent reason other than to hopefully catch you not noticing the needless speed change and get you speeding for the camera. So people are slamming on their brakes "oh crap, a speed camera." just so the speed can go back up to 50 or whatever just a few metres up the road. It's senseless BS.

There are many places where speed cameras are appropriate but I am seeing them more and more in the dumbest places. Seems they are just trying to be sneaky and catch people to simply fatten wallets.

[iGav]

Well it's not very good for the environment for a start.

[CorvusCamenarum]

On motorways (and many other places) I've seen the speed limit drop for no apparent reason other than to hopefully catch you not noticing the needless speed change and get you speeding for the camera. So people are slamming on their brakes "oh crap, a speed camera." just so the speed can go back up to 50 or whatever just a few metres up the road. It's senseless BS.

There are many places where speed cameras are appropriate but I am seeing them more and more in the dumbest places. Seems they are just trying to be sneaky and catch people to simply fatten wallets.

We have that over here too, except instead of cameras they're run by hokey backwater cops whose radar guns haven't been calibrated properly since they took them out of the box and have quotas to meet each month.

So if you loan someone your car and they get caught speeding, who has to pay the fine? Do you they allow you to introduce evidence that it wasn't you driving, or are you pretty much screwed?

[iGav]

So if you loan someone your car and they get caught speeding, who has to pay the fine? Do you they allow you to introduce evidence that it wasn't you driving, or are you pretty much screwed?

You give the name of the person who was driving. ;)

Otherwise they assume you were and you either pay the fine and get some rather spiffy stars on your license.

Or.

They take you to court and your fine goes from maybe £60 to £1000 or so (I can't remember the exact numbers), and probably a ban for not taking it like a man too. ;)

My 3 points expire next year. :D

[xUKHCx]

My grandad was told to either pay the £60 fine and get 3 points or pay a £60 fee to go on a one day driving course. He chose the driving course.

[iGav]

My grandad was told to either pay the £60 fine and get 3 points or pay a £60 fee to go on a one day driving course. He chose the driving course.

I wasn't offered the driving course unfortunately (obviously Warwickshire Police aren't interested in educating us law breaking yahoo's).

That said, honestly... I don't think I could tolerate being pontificated at by a Kojak with Kodak whose idea of increasing road safety is by sitting on motorway bridges, rather than actually doing something useful like actively enforcing driving standards on the roads.

[xUKHCx]

I wasn't offered the driving course unfortunately (obviously Warwickshire Police aren't interested in educating us law breaking yahoo's).

That said, honestly... I don't think I could tolerate being pontificated at by a Kojak with Kodak whose idea of increasing road safety is by sitting on motorway bridges, rather than actually doing something useful like actively enforcing driving standards on the roads.

My mum got done for driving 58 mph on the M25 at 3 am. Apparently the speed limit was there to protect the workforce, however there was not a sight of a single hard hat or high vis jacket anywhere.

I do agree that there is a better way for the police to use their time rather than doing as described.

[zioxide]

haha welcome to 1984

[sushi]

Hope you don't mind me saying this but I live near Tokyo and have seen very few speed cameras around. Driving in Japan I would say most drivers travel around 10kph over the limit and some are just speed freaks. I have only ever seen cops opperating speed traps on select sections of by-passes and expressways (motorways).

Having said that the speed limits in Japan are quite slow. e.g. and mountain road near my home away from housing and juctions with good visability is posted at 40kph!
Not at all.

I guess it all depends on where you drive.

Camera wise, they are slowly adding them. Ten years ago, there was hardly any. Now, they are becoming much more common. I've found that they are placing them in the areas where there is a higher probability for speeding.

As I am sure you know, many places you can't drive fast even if you wanted to due to the normal traffic congestion.

Also, I see more motorcycle cops and unmarked police cars on the road as well. I would avoid the Hachioji bypass (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=hachioji+city+japan&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=72.481569,110.917969&ie=UTF8&cd=1&ll=35.632605,139.348011&spn=0.074783,0.108318&z=13&om=1) towards the end of the month. :)

[FrankBlack]

I'll give you two examples. The shortish street outside my flat is a rat-run between two major London streets, it has cars parked all along both sides so it's often not wide enough for two cars to pass. It has two schools, a busy estate with lots of kids living on it, a church and an old person's home along it... yet, some twunts seem to enjoy barreling down it at over 40mph, sometimes even faster, oblivious to the hazard.

The other one is a pedestrian crossing on the Caledonian Road which drivers accelerate towards after rounding a blind corner; there's one of these in each direction. And what's more, this pedestrian crossing is used by schoolkids each day... and I've seen drivers tooting their horns at people using the crossing while they're hitting easily 60mph coming towards it.

So, let's put others' safety before others' selfish needs to speed dangerously in built-up areas.

If they tooted their horns, and gave "the finger", and yelled something out the window, they'd be on par with Boston Drivers. Sounds like our infamous Boston Driving attitude has made its way across the sea. Not good.

Seriously, it's a problem, but I personally feel cameras are too much "Big Brother" stuff.

In Massachusetts, state law requires that a sworn police officer must personally witness a motor vehilcle infraction. He must then stop the offending motorist, personally give said motorist the citation, and the motorist must sign it in the officer's presence. There is an ongoing effort in the state house to change this, and legalize the big brother cameras though. I suspect that day is coming, as some other states have them.

[Counterfit]

The speed limit of course would be 30mph, but what people forget is that 30mph is the maximum speed. I was taught that although 30, 40, 50 60, or 70 mph may be the maximum speed you always drive to the conditions of the road. So in the case of the picture 15-20mph would seem about right.

A limit of 30MPH on a narrow road like that? that one would be 20 tops around here.
My mum got done for driving 58 mph on the M25 at 3 am. Apparently the speed limit was there to protect the workforce, however there was not a sight of a single hard hat or high vis jacket anywhere.

At east in the U.S., actual workers aren't necessary. All that's needed for a section of highway to be a work zone (45mph) is markings and something like cones, barrels, or jersey barriers.

I'm not sure how I feel about speed cameras (I'm leaning towards "No sir, I don't like it"), but I would love to see more red light cameras around. I can't go a day without seeing someone run one. Heck, I almost nailed a guy who was trying to take a left on red, when both streets involved were two way! :mad:

[Cloudsurfer]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7046200.stm

WTF :mad:

The UK is no longer a place to drive in, the Govt. thinks adding cameras (why stop at 20mph, why not introduce them for EVERY speed limit in place FFS?! <sarcasm>) is the way forward (for boosting the coffers maybe!)

Country has really gone to the dogs in the last 10 years. This isn't progress. Pointless owning a car here tbh.

I can't wait for them to introduce satellite tracking..... :rolleyes:

Haha, we've had those cameras over here for years. 50 km/h, 80 km/h and 120 km/h (the latter are usually infrared and installed behind traffic signs so you can't see them).

[iGav]

The speed limit of course would be 30mph

Not necessarily, it could be a 20.

I was taught that although 30, 40, 50 60, or 70 mph may be the maximum speed you always drive to the conditions of the road. So in the case of the picture 15-20mph would seem about right.

Indeed.

If you're driving at a speed that is not suitable for the conditions, and even if you're not exceeding the specified speed limit, the police can still pull you over, just not for speeding... instead they'll call it driving without due care and attention. :p

Of course the same also applies when the conditions are suitable, in which case one should maintain a speed as close to, but not exceeding the specified limit as possible. Drive at noticeably less than the specified limit and the police will do the same.

So in the case of the picture 15-20mph would seem about right.

I'd agree with that, 15-20 is probably on the nose.

A limit of 30MPH on a narrow road like that? that one would be 20 tops around here.

Oh that's nothing ;) head up into the dales and you'll often find country lanes (wide enough to clip both wing mirrors with the foliage) with a limit of 60 (maximum UK limit for cars on single carriageways). Sometimes the posted limits here have no reason in their application. ;)

(the latter are usually infrared and installed behind traffic signs so you can't see them).

In some counties here, it's illegal to hide them. In such cases I believe they also have to be sign posted and visible (e.g. painted a bright colour to differentiate them from it's immediately surroundings).

[scotthayes]

Not necessarily, it could be a 20.




I said 30 because there were no signs I could see stating otherwise.

But never in a month of sundays would I drive down that road at 30. As I said and you agreed 15-20 mph would be about right for that road.

[miniConvert]

I'm not sure what to think.

I don't particularly agree with speed cameras. Not ones able to dish out instant fines and points, anyway. Monitoring is one thing but I don't like the current system.

I don't think the authorities know how to place speed limits properly. Here, we have a road that goes past a school. Either side of the school it's 30mph. Through the section where the school is, it's 40mph. Madness.

I agree that some areas should have 20mph limits where it's absolutely appropriate. I just don't trust that 20mph limits will be used appropriately.

Hmm.

[dcv]

I agree that some areas should have 20mph limits where it's absolutely appropriate. I just don't trust that 20mph limits will be used appropriately.


They're not. My street (in inner London) is a 20mph zone with speed humps. Everyone ignores the 20 signs and the humps don't stop anyone from driving at ridiculous speeds - it just makes the traffic and noise worse for residents :rolleyes:

[iGav]

I said 30 because there were no signs I could see stating otherwise.

That's because you'd need to be at the other end to see them... :p

Looks like the folk in the picture also need to learn that pavements are for walking on, and they wonder why they get run down. :rolleyes: :p

Bring back the Green Cross Code man... the singing hedgehogs aren't cutting it. :D

[bartelby]

Bring back the Green Cross Code man... the singing hedgehogs aren't cutting it. :D

Balls to the GCCM bring Tufty the Squirrel (http://www.tuftyclub.org.uk/) back to the public eye

[SpookTheHamster]

The problem with speed cameras is that they don't react to the conditions. For example, at school chucking out time when there's bound to be kids everywhere people will slow down to 20 even though the limit is 30. Now fast forward to late at night/early morning. It's very unlikely for a child to run out in front of your car at 2am, so people are more likely to drive at the 30 limit.

Another example would be clear day with no cars parked on the road, you could easily drive the usual 30 limit. Add in some parked cars or rain/fog, and it would make sense to slow down.

Speed limits in some European countries vary depending on the weather conditions, I don't like our speed limits being dictated by worst case scenarios.

[AppleMatt]

Speed Cameras are not the answer
There is a lot of evidence to show speed cameras reduce casualties at specific hazardous areas. This is good. However over the last few years the deaths on our roads has increased, despite there being more cameras installed. Equally, there has been a lot of eye-tracking studies done on drivers in camera areas. Not surprisingly, their eyes dart to their speedo. Not once, not twice, but constantly whilst they travel through the camera zone. All that time they're watching plastic they're not watching the hazards they're driving into.

People who obey speed limits are high-risk drivers
Let's be perfectly clear. You can drive, within reason, at any speed you want whilst maintaining your safety and the safety of those around you.

I almost learnt that speed limits are pointless the hard way; driving along a 40mph road confident in my 'safety'. As I came around the blind corner there were children everywhere - a school crossing. We've all seen the advert of the overly-cute little girl getting walloped and saying 'hit me at 40mph and there's an 80&#37; I'll die, hit me at 30mph and there's an 80% chance I'll live', so why is the limit of this road 40? This prompted me to sit down and re-assess what constitutes a safe and smooth driver. I particularly recommend this book for someone beginning to consider a safer approach to driving;

Mind Driving
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mind-Driving-Skills-Staying-Alive/dp/1873371160

If you look at driving from an objective angle, there are three main factors that determine safety. Two of these remain largely within our control, however the last we can only reduce:
- Speed
- Space
- Surprise

Setting speed limits of 20mph around all built up areas is arbitrary, as the majority don't require it. Many built-up areas can support 40mph safely. Equally, a large number would be dangerous with speeds over 15mph (single lane villages for example).

So this brings in the 'unofficial' 4th factor:- Culture. The driving culture in Britain stinks, and its far too easy to 1) Get on the roads and 2) Stay on the roads. Take a look at countries such as Germany. They have a better road system (more space, less surprise) which allows them higher speed limits. Whats shocking though is despite higher speeds they have...less casualties.

To verify what I've just said, simply re-read this thread. A particular post of interest is similar to my anecdote above, and goes along the lines of "oblivious to the hazard around the blind corner....people speed upto 60mph beeping their horns at pedestrains." What's the flaws here? 1) Poor road design; there should never be a high-risk hazard such as a crossing on a blind corner and 2) Culture; People driving above their ability, and at speeds unsafe for the conditions.

Blindly reeling off in a parrott fashion 'we should lower the speed limits, people going above the number on a sign post are scum yada yada' fails on two counts. Firstly, your speed should be proportionate to the conditions, not to a blanket-rule signpost. Secondly, people break the rules. That's why we have penalty points. You think setting lower limits will change this? No - the focus should be on attitude and ability.

AppleMatt

[Tom B.]

haha welcome to 1984

If you think this is bad, wait till the government fits all new cars with GPS trackers that send out an instant fine whenever anyone goes a little over the speed limit. :mad: :(

I can understand having a 20mph limit on small roads with children all around, but why are motorways still only 70mph? 80 would be much better.
Also, on motorways, speed cameras can cause more accidents than they stop, because of the way everyone slams their foot on the brakes just before the camera.

[OllyW]

Balls to the GCCM bring Tufty the Squirrel (http://www.tuftyclub.org.uk/) back to the public eye

I was a member of the Tufty Club when I first started school :cool:

[Ish]

I'd agree that some roads warrant a 20 mph limit, but what I don't understand is why the speed limits are in 10 mph increments. What's matter with having a 25 mph limit on some roads? Some of the places that have 20 mph limits now don't justify a drop of 10 mph. Yes, outside 'educational establishments' may sound worthy, but outside the university??

I get more annoyed about speed limits along non-existent roadworks. Plus last year the speed limits around Silverstone went up days before the Grand Prix and yet there were still speed traps catching loads of people.

[iGav]

It's quite simple really.

What we need are active speed limits, road signs that can detect traffic and weather conditions and adjust the limit to suit the current conditions.

[pseudobrit]

If you look at driving from an objective angle, there are three main factors that determine safety. Two of these remain largely within our control, however the last we can only reduce:
- Speed
- Space
- Surprise

Which is all a roundabout way of saying that the safest speed at which you can drive is one for which conditions allow. Which is another way of saying good drivers can adapt their driving in real time.

Most drivers aren't good and can't handle the dynamics of driving, and so we create laws adjusted for the lowest common denominator and competent operators must suffer through such handicaps or risk being punished for their practical driving.