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MacRumors
Oct 18, 2007, 03:38 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

MacNotes.de publishes (http://www.macnotes.de/2007/10/18/iphone-bei-t-mobile-alle-tarifdetails/) what it believes to be the rate plans for the iPhone in Germany based on multiple T-mobile sources.

iPhone M
49 EUR/month
Free data over EDGE
Free T-Mobile WiFi Hotspots
Free Voicemail
100 Minutes included (further minutes: 0.39 euros per minute)
40 SMS included (further SMS: 0.19 euros)

iPhone L
69 EUR/month
Free EDGE
Free T-Mobile WiFi Hotspots
Free Voicemail
200 Minutes included (further minutes: 0.39 euros per minute)
150 SMS included (further SMS: 0.19 euros each)

iPhone XL
89 EUR/month
Free data over EDGE
Free T-Mobile WiFi Hotspots
Free Voicemail
1000 Minutes included (further minutes: 0.39 euros per minute)
300 SMS included (further SMS: 0.19 euros each)

Translation provided by MacNotes.de (http://www.macnotes.de). Of note, in Europe, minutes and messages listed only apply when making outgoing calls or outgoing SMS messages. Incoming calls and messages are not counted against you.

Apple and T-Mobile announced (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/09/19/apple-announces-iphone-in-germany/) that T-Mobile would be the exclusive carrier of the Apple iPhone in Germany, slated to go on sale on November 9th.


Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/18/iphone-rate-plans-for-germany/)



emotion
Oct 18, 2007, 03:40 PM
I feel a bit better about O2 now.

Sceneshifter
Oct 18, 2007, 03:42 PM
that's just wrong...

artalliance
Oct 18, 2007, 03:43 PM
Wow, these do kind of hurt.

Keep in mind though that Germans don't pay for incoming calls.

Does it say anything about free weekends or nights?

xUKHCx
Oct 18, 2007, 03:43 PM
I feel a bit better about O2 now.

Looks like they get shafted on minutes and texts but we get shafted on data.

Wow, these do kind of hurt.

Keep in mind though that Germans don't pay for incoming calls.

Does it say anything about free weekends or nights?

what you have to pay for incoming calls, that is ridiculous.

tomozj
Oct 18, 2007, 03:43 PM
100 minutes and 40 messages?

They must really think the Germans have no friends. :eek:

megfilmworks
Oct 18, 2007, 03:43 PM
I like the free wifi instead of 3g.

Twiztedklown316
Oct 18, 2007, 03:45 PM
Wow $70 for the lowest plan, that sucks. Plus you only get 100min, and 40 sms. Not sure that its worth it to even own a cellphone in Europe if thats the going rate and/or typical plan.

emotion
Oct 18, 2007, 03:45 PM
Looks like they get shafted on minutes and texts but we get shafted on data.

In practice is there that much of a shadting on data though?

100/40. Blimey that's poor.

I like the free wifi instead of 3g.

Same as UK/O2.

aerospace
Oct 18, 2007, 03:47 PM
100mins?

hmm and what would I use for the other 29 days of the month :D

sananda
Oct 18, 2007, 03:47 PM
I feel a bit better about O2 now.

yup...worse than o2.

xUKHCx
Oct 18, 2007, 03:47 PM
In practice is there that much of a shadting on data though?

100/40. Blimey that's poor.

200Mb a month is very low, but from what people have been saying they aren't that hard about chasing it up so probably not.

emotion
Oct 18, 2007, 03:49 PM
200Mb a month is very low,

It sure sounds low but when you can't save anything on the device it might be enough.

sananda
Oct 18, 2007, 03:49 PM
what you have to pay for incoming calls, that is ridiculous.

well.....someone has to pay the increased cost of calling a mobile rather than a landline. in the uk, the person making the call pays that cost.

DrV
Oct 18, 2007, 03:50 PM
Wow $70 for the lowest plan, that sucks. Plus you only get 100min, and 40 sms. Not sure that its worth it to even own a cellphone in Europe if thats the going rate and/or typical plan.

Don't know about Germany, but the rate a bit higher up is 0.08 €/min (USD 0.11 / min) and 0.08 € for a SMS without any plans (2 €/mo. basic fee).

Also, the news item seems to have mixed up euros and cents, as it states 0.39 cents per extra minute. I guess it should be 0.39 euros per extra minute, which is horrendously expensive.

chr1s60
Oct 18, 2007, 03:58 PM
I'm not from Germany nor have I ever been there, but these just seem expensive for not too much in return. Are these normal size plans for over there?

longofest
Oct 18, 2007, 04:00 PM
I like the free wifi instead of 3g.

The minutes of the plan definitely stink, but I must say that getting free access to T-Moblie's wifi network is pretty sweet.

Mitthrawnuruodo
Oct 18, 2007, 04:03 PM
Wow... just wow... that's the most costly prices I've seen for mobile phones for years...

That SE K850i, with e.g. the Netcom's NOK99 (≈ €13) connect 'leisure', for free data (gprs, edge, utms and hsdpa) on evenings and weekends (the unlimited data plans are still a bit much here, but they are getting better, the regular Connect, 'always on', is NOK499 ≈ €65 for data traffic alone). Then combine that with one of their cheaper plans (e.g. 0 pr month and about €0.07 per minute and €0.08 per SMS).

Because there's no way that the iPhone plans will be (considerably) cheaper in Norway than in Germany, when and if the iPhone is ever released here... and although I have the money for buying the iPhone, I would like to be able to use it, within reason, too... ;)

Analog Kid
Oct 18, 2007, 04:04 PM
well.....someone has to pay the increased cost of calling a mobile rather than a landline. in the uk, the person making the call pays that cost.
Which makes more sense to me, rather than paying for a call you didn't ask to have made. On the other hand, in the US at least, there's no indication of what numbers are landlines and which are cellular. I know that at least in parts of Europe and Asia, mobiles have their own city code.

johnnyjibbs
Oct 18, 2007, 04:06 PM
Of note, in Europe, minutes and messages listed only apply when making outgoing calls or outgoing SMS messages. Incoming calls and messages are not counted against you.

Don't tell me you Americans have to pay for incoming calls???!!!!! :eek::eek::eek:

abrooks
Oct 18, 2007, 04:07 PM
Looks like they get shafted on minutes and texts but we get shafted on data.

Not sure about that, O2 are giving 200 mins, 200 texts for £35/month. I get more than that for £15 on O2 at the moment.

TheMechanic
Oct 18, 2007, 04:08 PM
Don't know about Germany, but the rate a bit higher up is 0.08 €/min (USD 0.11 / min) and 0.08 € for a SMS without any plans (2 €/mo. basic fee).

Also, the news item seems to have mixed up euros and cents, as it states 0.39 cents per extra minute. I guess it should be 0.39 euros per extra minute, which is horrendously expensive.

Yes, it should be 39 cents not 0.39.
But 39 cents (Euro cents) is just ridiculous. I have a contract with O2 Germany without monthly fees and I pay 19cents per minute and 19 per SMS.
T-Mobile definitly wants push all of their customers towards the higher priced tariffs.

xUKHCx
Oct 18, 2007, 04:08 PM
Which makes more sense to me, rather than paying for a call you didn't ask to have made. On the other hand, in the US at least, there's no indication of what numbers are landlines and which are cellular. I know that at least in parts of Europe and Asia, mobiles have their own city code.

In the UK mobiles begin 07...

Eraserhead
Oct 18, 2007, 04:11 PM
I feel a bit better about O2 now.

Definitely its even worse than the UK deal. I got an iPod Touch rather than an iPhone entirely due to the badness of the contract.

NewSc2
Oct 18, 2007, 04:11 PM
Wow. Suddenly, I feel good about the US's crappy cellular network. I mean, with T-Mobile I can get 1000 minutes for $50/month, with unlimited mobile-mobile calling and nights/weekends free. My AT&T bill isn't that much more. Incoming minutes be damned, I say.

Analog Kid
Oct 18, 2007, 04:11 PM
Yes, it should be 39 cents not 0.39.
But 39 cents (Euro cents) is just ridiculous. I have a contract with O2 Germany without monthly fees and I pay 19cents per minute and 19 per SMS.
T-Mobile definitly wants push all of their customers towards the higher priced tariffs.
Well, France isn't far away... Wonder how T-Mobile thinks they can keep this up with a supply of unlocked phones just across the border...

CHROMEDOME
Oct 18, 2007, 04:13 PM
Don't tell me you Americans have to pay for incoming calls???!!!!! :eek::eek::eek:

Yea it sucks...Getting charged .10 for incoming and outgoing texts sucks also.

CmdrLaForge
Oct 18, 2007, 04:14 PM
Are they crazy ? I will never buy a phone at those rates! To be honest - I really can't believe that those are correct.

Mac Fly (film)
Oct 18, 2007, 04:15 PM
That's crazy expensive!

alexandr
Oct 18, 2007, 04:16 PM
Wow, these do kind of hurt.

Keep in mind though that Germans don't pay for incoming calls.

Does it say anything about free weekends or nights?

i can just see it now.. two german iphone owners both sitting and waiting for the other one to call..

GoodWatch
Oct 18, 2007, 04:19 PM
Rats! I fear the plans for my country. :mad: How much do I want an iPhone?

Sälli
Oct 18, 2007, 04:20 PM
Just for comparison, this is what I am paying here in Finland. This is a regular plan, and not an iPhone one (as they are not selling it here), but I am still using it with my hacked iPhone:

19,90 € / month
500 minutes (outgoing only, incoming always free)
100 SMS (again outgoing only)

9,80 € / month
unlimited data

ASTRX
Oct 18, 2007, 04:21 PM
Wow, that's really expensive. I'm swedish but i cant imagine that the rates are all that different in germany?
Up here we pay about €0.08 per minute to all other carriers, and about €1/sms. And we don't have to pay for incoming calls.
Data traffic is pretty expensive though, unless you've got flat rate.
I can't really see 1M europeans buying iPhones at these rates, especially when you have to pay for the actual phone too!

Eraserhead
Oct 18, 2007, 04:23 PM
Wow. Suddenly, I feel good about the US's crappy cellular network. I mean, with T-Mobile I can get 1000 minutes for $50/month, with unlimited mobile-mobile calling and nights/weekends free. My AT&T bill isn't that much more. Incoming minutes be damned, I say.

This is Apple screwing up. Orange are probably the most expensive UK network.

For example I can get a Nokia N95 for £89.99 on an 18 month contract at £35/month, which has Unlimited Texts and 600 minutes a month. Now granted I don't get the unlimited data I get with the iPhone, but seeing as I have to use GPRS for the most part (which blows), its not that useful. The Cloud Wireless is only £6.99 a month if I want that as well.

Padraig
Oct 18, 2007, 04:27 PM
Sorry to be pedantic, but the plural of euro is simply euro, not euros.

40 sms for almost 50 euro is crazy, not to mention the subsequent cost of 19 cent per text.

emotion
Oct 18, 2007, 04:31 PM
Now granted I don't get the unlimited data I get with the iPhone, but seeing as I have to use GPRS for the most part (which blows), its not that useful.

I'm sure wheer you are will have EDGE coverage. I was surprised by how many areas will have it. There's a thread on here about it somewhere.

Fabio_gsilva
Oct 18, 2007, 04:33 PM
Wow... just wow... that's the most costly prices I've seen for mobile phones for years...

Yeah, you don't know brazillian rates...

Vinnie_vw
Oct 18, 2007, 04:34 PM
But you know that those tariffs probably come from what Apple is collecting on top right. It's Apple that's being greedy here, not necessarily T-Mobile. Still, it completely sucks and pretty much rules out me getting an iPhone anytime soon.

hogprint
Oct 18, 2007, 04:36 PM
They also have 6 second billing detail in Germany. That has an effect on the minutes used. I had a mobile in Germany in about 2000 and as I recall a couple hundred minutes was plenty since I didn't pay for incoming and didn't have calls rounded up to the next minute.........i also never had a dropped call or a building/valley I couldn't use my phone in.....

Abraxx
Oct 18, 2007, 04:40 PM
I thought the intend of T-Mobile was to get a better image via the iPhone, but with these rip off tarifs, the German Telekom (incl sisters) proves again that they are the worst and most expensive Telco in GY. I don't think their image will grow but the opposite...
Plus typically the mobile flat from T-Mobile is not a real flat but capped
and the contract will likely run for 24 month.
No way I'm going to buy an iPhone.
:p

daneoni
Oct 18, 2007, 04:44 PM
Um....wow and i thought us brits had it bad. 100mins/40sms?...what is this 2001?

Its basically a glorified blackberry only tariff then. Unlimited data but NO VOICE.

DrV
Oct 18, 2007, 04:45 PM
Sorry to be pedantic, but the plural of euro is simply euro, not euros.

Well... not quite. Paragraph 20.7 of the "English style guide" published by the European Commission Directorate-General for Translation:

"Guidelines on the use of the euro, issued via the Secretariat-General, state that the plurals of both ‘euro’ and ‘cent’ are to be written without ‘s’ in English. Do this when amending or referring to legal texts that themselves observe this rule. However, in all other texts, especially documents intended for the general public, use the natural plurals ‘euros’ and ‘cents’."

I know the s-less version is used in Ireland, but that does not make it the only correct choice.

Dagless
Oct 18, 2007, 04:47 PM
Just to chime in on the American deal. Wow, paying for incoming calls and txts? So if you have no money on your phone then you're basically screwed?

swagi
Oct 18, 2007, 04:48 PM
I feel very bad. First of all, these prices don't seem too far fetched, if you take a look at T-Mobile prices in general. I really believe them to be the real thing.

Actually, what most people forget, is that WiFi and EDGE-data are included. This is worth about 20-30 Euro, depending on your service provider.

Nevertheless I have to say the following: It's a bloody phone, stupid!

First of all I have to pay big style to get this sucker, and then I am forced into a stupid price structure. Just for people living outside of Germany: We have dozens of different service providers, which all have their special target audience and price.

I for one have a telephone flatrate, costing 35 Euros. I could pay extra for unlimited data (25 Euros), and that would be it. 60 that is for unlimited 3G data and unlimited talking.

Some people only want unlimited talking (just to remind you: it's a phone!), which is available for 20-35 Euros depending on provider.

So, in short, anyone buying this phone in Germany has a lot of money to burn. This is no smart shoppers choice. So I have one word for the iPhone in Germany: Playstation 3!

Nevertheless I believe it will sell - to all those people defining on status symbols. The iPhone will be the new wannabe-rich icon.

P.S.: This means my hopes are getting real high for the 2nd iteration of the phone. It will be 3G, MMS-capable and much more affordable :D:D:D

Yuppi
Oct 18, 2007, 04:48 PM
For a german contract that is kind of fair. For a mobile data flatrate you pay like 25 EUR and for the phone stuff like 18 EUR at eplus for example.
But what you have to consider is that you can use t-mobile hotspots for free which is a really nice addition as you find them on most places where you sit around bored. Like on Airports and Trainstations.
On Vodafone you would have to pay 49 EUR for soft limited 5GB data. Plus a ridiciolus calling plan.
Plus none of our carriers would make advertisements with "the lowest droprate". The networks here are damn good compared to what I heard about the US.

cazlar
Oct 18, 2007, 04:48 PM
Don't tell me you Americans have to pay for incoming calls???!!!!! :eek::eek::eek:

Yep, it's a stupid system IMO, coming from Australia where the caller pays all. It sucks even more when some company cold-calls me trying to sell me something, I end up paying for the call! Not to mention being charged in and out SMS, that's just plain double-dipping...

sananda
Oct 18, 2007, 04:51 PM
It sucks even more when some company cold-calls me trying to sell me something, I end up paying for the call!

that would really annoy me.

sho38
Oct 18, 2007, 04:54 PM
Well I just checked the T-mobile site in Germany. I can't read everything on the site but as noted on their site. The most popular calling plan as stated is the Relax 100:

http://www.t-mobile.de/calling_plans

100 free minutes included, call all networks for the same price, voice mail access free of charge extra: 0.39 € / min. monthly fee: 28.00 €

This price does not include any SMS.

So in terms of calling plans the germans are used to paying this amount is what I can see.

ooberpongo
Oct 18, 2007, 04:57 PM
Keep in mind, that all prices in Germany include all taxes (federal, state, VAT) and fees (universal service, number etc.)
So if you only phone 100 minutes and make 40 SMS and you are on the small plan, you will only have to pay 49 Euro.
In the US, there are several taxes and fees that end up on top of the announced monthly plan.

thechidz
Oct 18, 2007, 05:04 PM
i can just see it now.. two german iphone owners both sitting and waiting for the other one to call..

hahaha! Sehr funny!

swagi
Oct 18, 2007, 05:09 PM
Well I just checked the T-mobile site in Germany. I can't read everything on the site but as noted on their site. The most popular calling plan as stated is the Relax 100:

http://www.t-mobile.de/calling_plans

100 free minutes included, call all networks for the same price, voice mail access free of charge extra: 0.39 € / min. monthly fee: 28.00 €

This price does not include any SMS.

So in terms of calling plans the germans are used to paying this amount is what I can see.

And I just checked another site:

http://freenetmobile.freenet.de/shop.php?pid=1101

Just couldn't find anything on the phone options (just 10 € for unlimited internet and at least 20 € per month in phoning, but no phoning prices), but well, this is the concurrence. They also offer you the possibility to preorder the Curve :D

paddy
Oct 18, 2007, 05:24 PM
19 cent for a text! :eek::eek:

parrothead
Oct 18, 2007, 05:27 PM
Just to chime in on the American deal. Wow, paying for incoming calls and txts? So if you have no money on your phone then you're basically screwed?

There are almost no prepaid phone plans available in the US. My guess is that 97% of cell phone users are on some type of monthly plan, and those plans get charged at the end of the month not at the beginning. That way, you can go over your minutes and then they can charge you a premium for the overage. But they never cut you off unless you don't pay for a few months.

Being that every call, incoming and outgoing, costs minutes it can be very easy sometimes to go over your alloted minutes.

Darkroom
Oct 18, 2007, 05:29 PM
i just can't wait to see what Rogers in Canada is going to offer as plans... i just know it's gonna be terrible... i'm gearing up for a BIG laugh...

iamth3g
Oct 18, 2007, 05:30 PM
That really sucks. So they are paying 90 USD for some really basic plan?

That is a lot of quid for the current german.

overcast
Oct 18, 2007, 05:39 PM
Don't tell me you Americans have to pay for incoming calls???!!!!! :eek::eek::eek:

Don't tell me you Europeans STILL act like you don't know this. How many times has this been discussed ad nauseam? :rolleyes: Yes, we pay for both incoming and outgoing minutes. No, you don't. Yes you get raped in every other possible market. No we don't.

jmmo20
Oct 18, 2007, 05:40 PM
I'm sure wheer you are will have EDGE coverage. I was surprised by how many areas will have it. There's a thread on here about it somewhere.


Both Euro and Euros are correct, and most certainly most if not all non-English speaking countries in the EU use the termn euros for the plural.. with the local language adaptations, of course (evrós in Greek, e.g.)

Lefteous
Oct 18, 2007, 05:40 PM
Trenki from Austria tells the truth:
http://klarmobil.de/trenki/trenkilizer/index.html


Some roughly translated transcripts:

Grundgebühr
Diese Schweine mit denen ihrer Grundgebühr und der ganzen Scheisse. Ich zahl doch nix nur weil das Handy bei mir irgendwo herumliegt

Basic fee
These bastards with their base fee and all this crap. I'm not gonna pay just because the cellphone is lying around somewhere.

-----------

Zweijahrevertrag
Zweijahreshandyvertrag? Ich soll den Müll unterschreiben? Für wie blöd halten die Arschlöcher mich eigentlich?

2 year contract
2 year contract? Am I to sign this garbage? Do these *******s take me for a mug?

--------

Andere Anbieter
Diese Handyscheiser! Kosten die jetzt 49 Cent in der Sekunde oder 10 Euro die Monute oder sans einfach einfach nur sauteuer?

Other providers
These cellphone bastards! Is it now 49 cent per second or 10€ per minute or just ****ing expensive?

----------

CalfCanuck
Oct 18, 2007, 05:40 PM
Well, of course all the Americans, who have no idea about German cell phone rates, are trashing the prices and rating this negative, even though incoming calls are free to users.

Outgoing calls have ALWAYS been expensive - hence the HUGE use of SMS messages by young Germans to keep down their charges. A way to chat with each other on the cheap.

All outgoing phone calls on fixed lines, even local, are charged by the minute to the caller. When I lived in Germany a few years ago I used to pay more, per minute, to call my downstairs neighbor than to call the US or Canada. Of course calls to Handys (cell phones) are very expensive, but that's part of their stucture that people are used to.

FYI, here's a random comment from a GERMAN on the site wher ethe original article was: "Ich find EUR 50 absolut OK dafuer das EDGE und HotSpots flat dabei sind (wenn es dann wirklich FLAT ist)." If it really is flat rate, HE has no problem with the pricing if he can use TMobile's Hotspots.

Don't forget that Germany is a very concentrated country (smaller than Montana, with 82 million people). Free WiFi makes a ton of sense for surfing using an iPhone.

George Bailey
Oct 18, 2007, 05:53 PM
Don't forget that Germany is a very concentrated country (smaller than Montana, with 82 million people). Free WiFi makes a ton of sense for surfing using an iPhone.

With the forthcoming SDK, someone is going to figure out how to do VoIP and that will be the end of the free WiFi.

Even though of course that's how all mobile phones will eventually work, and the brutal cell phone carriers will go the way of the dinosaur.

George Bailey
Oct 18, 2007, 05:55 PM
well.....someone has to pay the increased cost of calling a mobile rather than a landline. in the uk, the person making the call pays that cost.

What is that incremental cost? 1/100th of a cent instead of 1/200th?

Diatribe
Oct 18, 2007, 05:58 PM
If those are correct then the iPhone is bound to fail in Germany. I know no one, and I mean NO ONE, that would pay that much for a contract.

Unlimited calls and sms within the cell phone network and to land lines are usually around 40€. So this is not gonna fly.

hotdamn
Oct 18, 2007, 06:04 PM
If those are correct then the iPhone is bound to fail in Germany. I know no one, and I mean NO ONE, that would pay that much for a contract.

Unlimited calls and sms within the cell phone network and to land lines are usually around 40€. So this is not gonna fly.

dude, why don't you just read the thread?
that's the normal price for cellphone contracts in germany.

joker0421
Oct 18, 2007, 06:05 PM
I am from germany, and I think the worst part of these plans are the 39 Cents for further minutes. You can get a prepaid card with only 9,9 Cents a minute, and with no monthly fee. So this is really a rip off.

The positive thing about T-Mobile is their really good coverage, and I think that also their EDGE network is faster than AT&Ts.

sananda
Oct 18, 2007, 06:07 PM
What is that incremental cost? 1/100th of a cent instead of 1/200th?

from my british telecom home phone a daytime call to a landline costs 3.25 pence per minute whereas a daytime call to a mobile phone costs 12.5 pence per minute.

CalfCanuck
Oct 18, 2007, 06:10 PM
With the forthcoming SDK, someone is going to figure out how to do VoIP and that will be the end of the free WiFi.

Even though of course that's how all mobile phones will eventually work, and the brutal cell phone carriers will go the way of the dinosaur.
I understand how VoIP will hurt and the phone companies will be angry, but they can't cut WiFI (and I'm not even speaking about the legal ramifications) - that's part of what makes the iPhone work at the present time.

Just because people are pirating music, the music industry didn't stop producing CD's.

hotdamn
Oct 18, 2007, 06:10 PM
I love how T-Mobile is not really subsidizing the phone and you still have to pay so much for that contract. I mean even if this is normal in germany, wow.
I guess all that extra money goes to Apple?

Sometimes I think I am really lucky for unlocking my phone, even if I don't have a very good data plan. I pay 7 cents from Canada to Austria, for crying out loud.

Eraserhead
Oct 18, 2007, 06:12 PM
I'm sure wheer you are will have EDGE coverage. I was surprised by how many areas will have it. There's a thread on here about it somewhere.

This is based on using the Internet from my Macbook via my Nokia 6230i on Orange on the train, it was always extremely slow, and Orange have an extensive EDGE network. Though maybe my Mac couldn't access EDGE via Bluetooth.

CalfCanuck
Oct 18, 2007, 06:13 PM
from my british telecom home phone a daytime call to a landline costs 3.25 pence per minute whereas a daytime call to a mobile phone costs 12.5 pence per minute.
And for the unaware, double those prices to get to US currency.

CalfCanuck
Oct 18, 2007, 06:17 PM
I am from germany, and I think the worst part of these plans are the 39 Cents for further minutes. You can get a prepaid card with only 9,9 Cents a minute, and with no monthly fee. So this is really a rip off.

The positive thing about T-Mobile is their really good coverage, and I think that also their EDGE network is faster than AT&Ts.
That is quite a discounted rate! My Vodafone D2 Call-Ya is about the same as the iPhone rate (granted, no monthly fee, but no free minutes either).

Here's the non-iPhone rates for T-Mobile, which seem to be similar as well:
http://www.t-mobile.de/tarifuebersicht_tarife/0,12022,17267-_,00.html

CalfCanuck
Oct 18, 2007, 06:20 PM
This is based on using the Internet from my Macbook via my Nokia 6230i on Orange on the train, it was always extremely slow, and Orange have an extensive EDGE network. Though maybe my Mac couldn't access EDGE via Bluetooth.
This is the beauty of Hotspots, though, as many ICE trains have them. So you could take an ICE from Frankfurt to Berlin, and possibly access unlimited WiFi for free the entire journey!

princigalli
Oct 18, 2007, 06:27 PM
good for Germany, if you consider the free internet. Germany is not very competitive anyway. Without internet, some prepaid cards are cheaper and charge 15c per minute or SMS. But with flat rate internet, it's quite decent and much better than previews t-mobile plans. Let's just ope they don't use their horrible logo and corporate colors anywhere on the phone or interface.

joker0421
Oct 18, 2007, 06:27 PM
That is quite a discounted rate! My Vodafone D2 Call-Ya is about the same as the iPhone rate (granted, no monthly fee, but no free minutes either).

Here's the non-iPhone rates for T-Mobile, which seem to be similar as well:
http://www.t-mobile.de/tarifuebersicht_tarife/0,12022,17267-_,00.html

Of course it's discounted, but it's the future. 39 Cents with 49€ monthly fee for 2 years is ridiculous. In a year the prices will be even lower, and you're still stuck with those expensive plans..

Stridder44
Oct 18, 2007, 06:34 PM
100 minutes and 40 messages?

They must really think the Germans have no friends. :eek:


100 minutes isn't bad guys. If all you do is order pizza you should be fine. :rolleyes:

fwhh
Oct 18, 2007, 06:35 PM
This pricing is really crazy. T-Mobile and Vodafone are traditionally expensive carriers in germany, but as someone mentioned before: you can easily get a phone with 10ct /min with or without a plan. And for the EDGE: at this pricing you can get a HSDPA (UMTS/3G)-Flatrate, even in germany....

jack.yang
Oct 18, 2007, 06:36 PM
Well, France isn't far away... Wonder how T-Mobile thinks they can keep this up with a supply of unlocked phones just across the border...

EXACTLY!! couldn't people like us that lives in the US buy a germany apple iphone and bring it back to use it with the tmobile service here? i could be just wrong but seem like the sim would register.:D

aggemam
Oct 18, 2007, 06:41 PM
I wonder what the rates are going to be in Denmark, then ...

Here, you get to pay €0.10 a minute (taxed per second), and €0.02 for an SMS. No monthly fee, no paying for incoming calls. Apple would never be able to pull something like this off here (or maybe they just would, but then I don't understand this world).

TXCraig
Oct 18, 2007, 06:58 PM
Don't tell me you Americans have to pay for incoming calls???!!!!! :eek::eek::eek:

Just remember.. here in the states that caller on a land line pays nothing for calling someone's mobile- UNLIKE the UK. In the UK, you do get "free" incoming calls- that is becuase the caller is paying toll...even from a land line phone.

sjo
Oct 18, 2007, 07:36 PM
Just remember.. here in the states that caller on a land line pays nothing for calling someone's mobile- UNLIKE the UK. In the UK, you do get "free" incoming calls- that is becuase the caller is paying toll...even from a land line phone.

Don't tell me you Americans still make land line calls???!!!!! :eek::eek::eek:

Diatribe
Oct 18, 2007, 07:39 PM
dude, why don't you just read the thread?
that's the normal price for cellphone contracts in germany.

Dude? WTF? First of all I am from Germany and second, just because Telekom has crappy prices doesn't mean those are normal prices for cellphone contracts.
Those rates are not normal either, but after reading this thread you seem to be the expert... :rolleyes:

s10
Oct 18, 2007, 07:57 PM
I think it would be appropriate if only germans would comment on this. It is useless to translate this into other situations in other countries.

snowe
Oct 18, 2007, 08:00 PM
Those prices are quite high even for german market. In Finland I got following monthly deal: 0.66€ per month, 0.069€ per minute and 0.069€ per SMS. And also unlimited 3G and EDGE data for 8 euros per month. We don't pay incoming calls.

So really looking forward for iPhone deals in here.

King Crimson
Oct 18, 2007, 08:02 PM
... I'm stucked on ePlus for about 9 month from now ...

Quite nice, I'll use my treo and wait for rev 2 or 3 of the iphone and the movement of the t-mobile pricing :cool:

OK, DAMN, I'D LIKE TO HAVE ONE BUT ...

Yuppi
Oct 18, 2007, 08:02 PM
I guess that most Germans that have ever been to one of the northern countries would say that Germany has the cheapest rates at all. But the pricing for this plans is just what I expected and would not consider it too bad. Compared to other countries it sure is and German carriers have to learn a lot.
They payed an incredible high price for the UMTS licenses and of course they want to make some money. So they get it from their customers. There is nothing fair about it. But it is getting better as some carrier seem to realize that younger people don't care about land lines when they could have a mobile phone and a DSL access.

Diatribe
Oct 18, 2007, 08:20 PM
They payed an incredible high price for the UMTS licenses and of course they want to make some money. So they get it from their customers. There is nothing fair about it. But it is getting better as some carrier seem to realize that younger people don't care about land lines when they could have a mobile phone and a DSL access.

Well if the phone actually had UMTS support those prices wouldn't be too bad. But this way it just plain sucks.

megfilmworks
Oct 18, 2007, 08:53 PM
Well... not quite. Paragraph 20.7 of the "English style guide" published by the European Commission Directorate-General for Translation:

"Guidelines on the use of the euro, issued via the Secretariat-General, state that the plurals of both ‘euro’ and ‘cent’ are to be written without ‘s’ in English. Do this when amending or referring to legal texts that themselves observe this rule. However, in all other texts, especially documents intended for the general public, use the natural plurals ‘euros’ and ‘cents’."

I know the s-less version is used in Ireland, but that does not make it the only correct choice.That explains why you hear it both ways as you travel through GB and Europe.

Riezer
Oct 18, 2007, 08:54 PM
Dudes... I'm just shocked about these rates.

Here in Holland I pay €10,95 incl. taxes + 275 minutes/sms free (not charged on incoming calls, and yes, I don't have any friends:D...no, I call them using VOIP at home). If i want I can get unlimited 3.5G internet for 9.95, but I don't.
I even felt ripped off since somewhat later I found a contract with 300 minutes + 60 SMS for the same price.

Also, in my country we have T-mobile too and I found their tariffs here:
100 minutes free - €5
200 minutes free - €8.50
300 minutes free - €12
400 minutes free - €17

I wonder wtf is happening over there since Germany is usually somewhat cheaper than Holland. I even buy my groceries over there since it saves me a ******** of money, especially on alcoholic drinks. Maybe they do subsidize the iPhone?

Diatribe
Oct 18, 2007, 09:01 PM
Dudes... I'm just shocked about these rates.

Here in Holland I pay €10,95 incl. taxes + 275 minutes/sms free (not charged on incoming calls, and yes, I don't have any friends:D...no, I call them using VOIP at home). If i want I can get unlimited 3.5G internet for 9.95, but I don't.
I even felt ripped off since somewhat later I found a contract with 300 minutes + 60 SMS for the same price.

Also, in my country we have T-mobile too and I found their tariffs here:
100 minutes free - €5
200 minutes free - €8.50
300 minutes free - €12
400 minutes free - €17

I wonder wtf is happening over there since Germany is usually somewhat cheaper than Holland. I even buy my groceries over there since it saves me a ******** of money, especially on alcoholic drinks. Maybe they do subsidize the iPhone?

I think German telecom companies just went way overboard when they bid for the UMTS licenses and they're still paying for that. I mean look at land lines... telephone flatrate + 6Mbit Internet flatrate is 29€.

Riezer
Oct 18, 2007, 09:17 PM
I think German telecom companies just went way overboard when they bid for the UMTS licenses and they're still paying for that. I mean look at land lines... telephone flatrate + 6Mbit Internet flatrate is 29€.

Well they did, but so did ours and it's being used as an excuse to overcharge the consumers. I just think there's too less competition in their telecom sector.

BTW I pay €19.95 for 20Mbit Internet flatrate including fixed line charge. I call for free to landlines using VOIP for €10 for 4 months and can use that €10 credit to call abroad.

Diatribe
Oct 18, 2007, 09:25 PM
Well they did, but so did ours and it's being used as an excuse to overcharge the consumers. I just think there's too less competition in their telecom sector.

BTW I pay €19.95 for 20Mbit Internet flatrate including fixed line charge. I call for free to landlines using VOIP for €10 for 4 months and can use that €10 credit to call abroad.

Wow, those are sweet prices. I thought Germany had low prices on Internet but that's cool. I don't think they even have 20Mbit in Germany yet.

cameronjpu
Oct 18, 2007, 09:25 PM
Don't tell me you Americans have to pay for incoming calls???!!!!! :eek::eek::eek:

Yeah, judging from those rates, you Europeans SURE have it GREAT. Ha!

EagerDragon
Oct 18, 2007, 09:33 PM
It seem like they are being shafted, however it depends on what they pay now for other similar smartphone plans.

EagerDragon
Oct 18, 2007, 09:34 PM
100 minutes and 40 messages?

They must really think the Germans have no friends. :eek:

ROFLMAO

cameronjpu
Oct 18, 2007, 10:21 PM
Don't tell me you Americans still make land line calls???!!!!! :eek::eek::eek:

Wait, so in Europe everyone has cell phone plans with 100 minutes because they only pay for outgoing, so apparently no one is making calls from cell phones, yet somehow no one is making calls from land lines either.

I dunno, I try to take the position that US and EU plans are 6 of one, half dozen of the other things, where the differences all work out in the end, but seriously - suggesting a plan in the US with 100 minutes, even if you said they would only pay for outgoing, would be laughed out of the room.

I mean, we get something like 4-6 times the minutes for that price - I think that will cover a few outgoing calls!

Yuppi
Oct 18, 2007, 10:23 PM
But the service at the german telcos defintely justifies those high prices...


LOL, Ok that was REALLY Sarcastic.

oldworld
Oct 18, 2007, 11:12 PM
I am from Germany. I would like to have a iPhone.
But I don't like T-mobile and I don't like their prices. So I will have no iPhone.
After selecting T-mobile I don't think Apple will be successful here in Germany. Look at the iPod's market-share in Germany: just 26%

Riezer
Oct 18, 2007, 11:41 PM
BTW to all you Americans: When Europeans go abroad they too have to pay for being called (because international calls are more expensive, it would not be fair to let the caller pay extra since he might not know the recipient is abroad) For me this is hell, I go on holidays 4 times per year and then I used to have huge bills when I returned home. For this reason I now have prepaid SIM-cards for Germany, Spain, UK, Italy and Russia in my wallet:eek:

mjonson
Oct 18, 2007, 11:59 PM
thats terrible. In canada we used to have to pay for incoming SMS but tahts free now, and just in the past year many plans are starting to come with free incoming. Right now i pay 30$/month 200 anytime Minutes, Free evenings weekends, unlimited text.

ruutiveijari
Oct 19, 2007, 12:49 AM
That's just wrong.

In Finland for 60 euros you get 3000 min/3000 sms/3000 mms and 3000 min video calls and unlimited data over HSDPA and a Nokia 6120 Classic (HSDPA).

spike1911
Oct 19, 2007, 12:54 AM
Wow $70 for the lowest plan, that sucks. Plus you only get 100min, and 40 sms. Not sure that its worth it to even own a cellphone in Europe if thats the going rate and/or typical plan.

Don't exchange the money with the current exchange rates...
think about gas prices here - one liter (that 3.7 less than a gallon ;-)) of gas is around 1.35 EUR currently....

I do not want to justify the "ugly" rates but i want to help understand the ridiculous price structures here in europe.

There are other cellular providers (i.e. EPlus) that provide you with a all around "real" data and voice flat rate for 90 EUR (voice all networks) plus 25EUR for data.

But their network is to crowded at the moment, they haven't invested in the network for months, their 3G sucks and they don't have edge...

So we have to swallow the bitter pill......

I am from Germany. I would like to have a iPhone.
But I don't like T-mobile and I don't like their prices. So I will have no iPhone.
After selecting T-mobile I don't think Apple will be successful here in Germany. Look at the iPod's market-share in Germany: just 26%

Maybe, maybe not!?

German Apple subsidiary always used to be less inferior than the U.S. or France.
They seem also some kind of arrogant to me. Same for many of the dealers?

In general the "Geiz ist geil" (avarice is cool) spots have done their work. Everyone just want's to buy cheap!
I do not want to argue on T-Mobile or their "superior" rates, but same story could be told about vodafone!?

swagi
Oct 19, 2007, 02:27 AM
This is the beauty of Hotspots, though, as many ICE trains have them. So you could take an ICE from Frankfurt to Berlin, and possibly access unlimited WiFi for free the entire journey!

HotSpot-Flatrate is 14.95 €. So you could basically factor this one out. But, apart from speed, what do I need a factored in HotSpot-Flatrate, while I also have a data flatrate?

This is part of the equation I don't get. I could get that Flatrate, but won't. And that's just because 3G data rate is fine and the data plans aren't that horrible. I personally don't even use up to the amount of data, that a 25 € unlimited data plan would make sense.

I had a perfect internet experience in Bad Wildungen using 3G, while the only available HotSpot would've been in the Maritim hotel.

Essence for me: If the iPhone only had 3G, I'd get a French unlocked one! So here's to waiting and watching eBay! :D

Papajohn56
Oct 19, 2007, 02:29 AM
This cements my belief that T-Mobile is the worst cell phone company in the world. No mobile to mobile minutes in the US, just the 5 people in your favorites is all.

DrV
Oct 19, 2007, 02:31 AM
I do not want to justify the "ugly" rates but i want to help understand the ridiculous price structures here in europe.

The German situation does not reflect telecom sector in Europe in general. Their former national telecom operator (DT) used to do everything to make life difficult for competition. The German government also collected tens of billions of euros of tax-like fees from the operators back in 2000 (the 3G license auction).

If we talk about the telecom sector at the EU level, the situation is different. The Commission tries to open the market as well as possible. I have seen several comparisons of call prices in the EU. The results depend on what is compared (how many minutes, SMSs, data plan, etc.), but in general Sweden or Finland tend to be the least expensive and Germany the most expensive, the difference being roughly triple.

There is a positive feedback in this. When the call prices are reasonable, people call a lot. Almost everyone has a cell phone, and land lines are disappearing rapidly. This ensures a lot of income to the carriers as the net number of call minutes is high. The more there is traffic the less the network costs per minute/megabyte/whatever.

In several European countries operator locking is very strictly regulated, as it tends to dilute competition. This seems to have a strong correlation with call charges. Of course, the carriers know this and lobby against it very desperately. The trick Apple is trying is simply against the European Commission thinking.

Of course, one might think that fierce competition makes the carriers unprofitable and thus the networks will deteriorate. They haven't as people keep on demanding 3G, 3.5G, 3Gturbo, etc. No one will keep using a network with bad coverage.

Summa summarum, Germany is a very bad sample if you want to say something about the telecom sector in Europe.

Sceneshifter
Oct 19, 2007, 02:38 AM
i can just see it now.. two german iphone owners both sitting and waiting for the other one to call..

haha :-D

Confidemus
Oct 19, 2007, 02:59 AM
Hi all,

At the moment (I'm German) I paid with Vodafone for 260 minutes actual usage of September 105 Euros. This included the home-zone and some other features like limited UMTS usage. The UMTS was unusable due to the crippled interface of my mobile phone. So I sometimes used the mobile as a bluetooth modem for my MacBook. But this was on rare occasions because of the availability of WiFi on many places. So the T-Mobile tariffs are o.k. for me.

To the UMTS - part of the prices: The statistic says (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Versteigerung_der_UMTS-Lizenzen_in_Deutschland) that the licence costs have been 620 Euros per inhabitant in Germany (that is 620 Euros x 82 Mill. = 50 Bill. Euro). This has to be financed by all mobile phone users in Germany, not only those who are using UMTS.

Confidemus

aramelus
Oct 19, 2007, 03:26 AM
Well this prices will probably kill the IPhone in Germany. Apple isn't that strong in Germany anyway.
The cheapest prepaid price in Germany is at the moment something like 10cent per minute and per SMS. But this is without a contract so you only pay what you actually use. Unlimited 3G traffic costs 25€ per month. So the price should be something like 35€-40€ considering a 2 year contract.

But T-Mobile always sucked and they prove it again :D

fattyreflyer
Oct 19, 2007, 03:29 AM
Well, of course all the Americans, who have no idea about German cell phone rates, are trashing the prices and rating this negative, even though incoming calls are free to users.

Outgoing calls have ALWAYS been expensive - hence the HUGE use of SMS messages by young Germans to keep down their charges. A way to chat with each other on the cheap.

All outgoing phone calls on fixed lines, even local, are charged by the minute to the caller. When I lived in Germany a few years ago I used to pay more, per minute, to call my downstairs neighbor than to call the US or Canada. Of course calls to Handys (cell phones) are very expensive, but that's part of their stucture that people are used to.

FYI, here's a random comment from a GERMAN on the site wher ethe original article was: "Ich find EUR 50 absolut OK dafuer das EDGE und HotSpots flat dabei sind (wenn es dann wirklich FLAT ist)." If it really is flat rate, HE has no problem with the pricing if he can use TMobile's Hotspots.

Don't forget that Germany is a very concentrated country (smaller than Montana, with 82 million people). Free WiFi makes a ton of sense for surfing using an iPhone.

Actually its pretty common now that most fixed line plans are all-inclusive for unlimited calls to the festnetz (Germany-wide network). From a public telephone though you pay per 10 secs or whatever to any phone.

Also free WiFi here, at least in Frankfurt, is as common as a German with a natural suntan. There are certainly pre-paid or subscription based possibilities (also through t-mobile) but strictly free just doesn't happen here so much.

I pay about 22 Euro a month with O2, so 49 minimum is not going to interest me (+ the cost of the phone).

But I do not doubt that people will go with it here. It will be considered trendy/fashionable to own one and people will pay it for sure.

gifford
Oct 19, 2007, 04:06 AM
I live in UK. I pay £25 a month and i get...
FREE Sony Erricson P990i (stylus input PDA phone)
800 minutes
unlimited texts
plus insurance

which i dont think is too bad a deal.

Cuckoo
Oct 19, 2007, 04:16 AM
wow, i'm glad i've got a hacked phone, and judging from these rates, my next phone will be hacked or non-apple... this is one of the most redicilous plans i've ever seen....

christian_k
Oct 19, 2007, 04:20 AM
It seem like they are being shafted, however it depends on what they pay now for other similar smartphone plans.



Example from EPlus (Germany):

24 month contract ("zehnsation web"),
Nokia E61i for 399 (same price as iPhone).

Per month: 10 Eur. This includes 50 free texts/ month.
Outgoing calls are 0,10 Eur/min and outgoing texts are 0,10 Eur/min.
Incoming calls & texts are free.

You should have an additional data option, for example
250 MB / month (that is more than enough for most mobile users) is 9,95 / month. This includes 3G access.
A flatrate would be 25 Eur/month, but keep in mind that unsing this with a notebook is not just allowed, it is even suggested by the operator. (The iPhone cannot be used as a "modem" w/o hacking.)

Note: The device is unlocked and can be used with any SIM.
You can easily save another 150+ Eur on the device, if you don't buy directly at EPlus, but at an independent retailer.

Christian

Dembo
Oct 19, 2007, 07:09 AM
Damn... I was expecting the 50,- €/month but I was hoping for more than 100min and 40 SMS is just pathetic. Terrible when compared to the UK offer and even worse considering that it's for 24 months not just 18.

As others pointed out: If you build yourself a 100min/month + unlimited (i.e. 5Gbyte, I am sure that the iPhone won't be unlimited) with T-mobile you end up somewhere in that region. However, that would've been HSDPA not essentially GPRS. Bastards. :mad:

Now what, my existing ontract will finished exactly on November 9. (great timing, eh?) so it's either: iPhone + crazy contract now or no iPhone for 24 months.

And for all the: Just drive over to France people: Do you really think "has to be available without contract" as stated in the French law means you will be able to acctually buy it? I bet there will be difficulties due to the "low amount of iPhones available and customers with contracts being served first"...

Does look more and more like no iPhone for me for the next two years... :(

emotion
Oct 19, 2007, 07:13 AM
I live in UK. I pay £25 a month and i get...
FREE Sony Erricson P990i (stylus input PDA phone)
800 minutes
unlimited texts
plus insurance

which i dont think is too bad a deal.

No data and no wifi.

No doubt the O2 deal isn't that great for the iPhone but for most people it's a premium worth paying.

I predict a lot of iPhone unlocking going on in Germany.

Diatribe
Oct 19, 2007, 07:28 AM
No data and no wifi.

No doubt the O2 deal isn't that great for the iPhone but for most people it's a premium worth paying.

I predict a lot of iPhone unlocking going on in Germany.

Or buying an unlocked version in France. :D

emotion
Oct 19, 2007, 07:31 AM
Or buying an unlocked version in France. :D

There's no way that's going to be easy.

Diatribe
Oct 19, 2007, 07:35 AM
There's no way that's going to be easy.

Why? The only real barrier Apple can implement here is the price.

emotion
Oct 19, 2007, 07:42 AM
Why? The only real barrier Apple can implement here is the price.

It only has to be available. Not necessarily _widely_ available.

Try and buy a Touch in the UK a month after launch date....it's still hard.

tripwire
Oct 19, 2007, 07:44 AM
I really don't understand why anyone would buy a 2.5G phone at these prices with a 2yr contract.
I can't imagine Apple not releasing a 3.5G version with 16G flash in the first half of next year.

emotion
Oct 19, 2007, 07:46 AM
I really don't understand why anyone would buy a 2.5G phone at these prices with a 2yr contract.
I can't imagine Apple not releasing a 3.5G version with 16G flash in the first half of next year.

I predict November 08 for that release.

As for 2.5G. There's a danger in chasing specs and not considering what the device can actually do and how it does it (in terms of ease-of-use).

tripwire
Oct 19, 2007, 07:56 AM
I predict November 08 for that release.

As for 2.5G. There's a danger in chasing specs and not considering what the device can actually do and how it does it (in terms of ease-of-use).

So you reckon that either Apple will just do a 16GB version of the current phone in the 1st half of next year, or that they will not update the hardware in the coming 12 months?
I find that hard to believe.
On 2.5G, and speaking from experience,I think it's way too slow for websurfing.

emotion
Oct 19, 2007, 07:59 AM
So you reckon that either Apple will just do a 16GB version of the current phone in the 1st half of next year, or that they will not update the phone in the coming 12 months?
I find that hard to believe.

Yes, and only time will tell. Experience of how apple functions has shown they don't update to the latest tech straight away. Where are the SR macbooks, for example?


On 2.5G, and speaking from experience,I think it's way too slow for websurfing.

Using an iPhone? With EDGE?

tripwire
Oct 19, 2007, 08:02 AM
Only time will tell. Experience of how apple fucntion has shown they don't update to the latest tech straight away. Where are the SR macbooks, for example.

Using an iPhone? With EDGE?

No,via a pcmcia card in my laptop connected to an edge network.

Diatribe
Oct 19, 2007, 08:03 AM
It only has to be available. Not necessarily _widely_ available.

Try and buy a Touch in the UK a month after launch date....it's still hard.

We will see I guess. I just think Apple is missing out on a lot of business. They should have just sold it to the telecom companies for $800-1000 and then let them subsidize it. At least this way Apple would have made money all over the world not just in some select countries.

emotion
Oct 19, 2007, 08:05 AM
No,via a pcmcia card in my laptop.

Exactly my point. That's a different device to the iPhone.

We will see I guess. I just think Apple is missing out on a lot of business. They should have just sold it to the telecom companies for $800-1000 and then let them subsidize it. At least this way Apple would have made money all over the world not just in some select countries.

Maybe but Apple have a different strategy to a normal phone manufacturer like, say, HTC.

It remains to be seen if their approach is valid.

goosnarrggh
Oct 19, 2007, 08:07 AM
Just for a bit of context...

In North America, incoming landline telephone calls are always free unless the sender calls collect.

Outgoing landline telephone calls within the "local calling area" are "free" for the sender. It's not really free, though. Effectively, it's just that unlimited anytime minutes are built into the fixed monthly tariffs.

The definition of a "local calling area" varies depending on which telephone company is providing you with landline service. I've heard of companies, for example, that define all of New York State as a single local area. Other companies may divide the local calling areas arbitrarily (eg. according to county lines). Still other companies actually have overlapping local areas, so that a village located mid-way between two cities might be within the local calling area of both cities, but the two cities themselves would be outside of each others' local calling areas.

Generally speaking, cellular telephones are registered with the wireless company as being primarily located at a particular geographical location.

Outgoing landline calls made to a cellular telephone that is registered within the landline caller's local calling area are always reckoned as "local" as far as the caller is concerned, and therefore free, regardless of the actual physical location of the cellular telephone.

Landline calls made to a telephone number registered outside the local calling area, regardless of whether it is cellular or landline, are reckoned as long distance calls and are charged according to the long distance plan to which the landline caller is subscribed.

When a cellular telephone is located within its registered local calling area, all incoming calls are reckoned at the "local" rate. Outgoing calls to other numbers registered within the local calling area, regardless of whether they are landline or wireless numbers, are also reckoned at the same local rate. Outgoing calls to numbers registered outside the local calling area are reckoned at the long distance rate.

When a cellular telephone moves outside its registered the local calling area but is still within an area that is covered by their wireless company, different rules can take effect depending on the carrier. For example, the "local" rate for incoming and outgoing calls might move with the phone as it moves in and out of different local calling areas. Alternatively, the phone might start treating every incoming and outgoing call as long distance regardless of origin or destination. Or any part of the spectrum in between.

When a cellular telephone enters an area that is not covered by their wireless company, they may be able to roam onto a competitor's network if the two companies have appropriate agreements in place and use compatible technology. Roaming in this case incurs yet another different set of rates.

As far as texting goes, I've never had to pay for an incoming domestic text message on Canadian carriers Rogers, Telus, or Bell-Aliant. The ability to place outgoing domestic text messages has a cost attached. I think all overseas text messages, both incoming and outgoing, have a cost. I cannot comment on what other North American carriers do re texting.

tripwire
Oct 19, 2007, 08:10 AM
Exactly my point. That's a different device to the iPhone.


Yeah, but surfing the web on the iPhone is going to be just as fast at best.
Page rendering on the iPhone will be slower in most cases due to the slower processor.

emotion
Oct 19, 2007, 08:14 AM
Yeah, but surfing the web is going to be just as fast at best.
Page rendering on the iPhone will be slower in most cases due to the slower processor.

....but network handling may be different. TCP stack may be different etc etc. Safari will be different (that PCMCIA connected device was an OSX machine running Safari yes?).

A direct comparison is hard to do.

However, you may have a point as my iPhone won't be in my grubby mitts until 9.11.07. I'll know then.

Papajohn56
Oct 19, 2007, 09:25 AM
Don't tell me you Americans have to pay for incoming calls???!!!!! :eek::eek::eek:

We don't pay mobile-to-mobile incoming or outgoing, you do if you're making the call. We also have free nights and weekends.

spike1911
Oct 19, 2007, 09:29 AM
Maybe T-Mobile is just testing the field with this!?
I just received an email with regards to November 9th release.
They sent no rate information - they wrote we have to wait another week for that.

So just sit an wait (as usual ;-))

Dembo
Oct 19, 2007, 09:57 AM
Maybe T-Mobile is just testing the field with this!?
I just received an email with regards to November 9th release.
They sent no rate information - they wrote we have to wait another week for that.


Yup, I can confirm this - same email received over here. Good news: You can transfer your number to the iPhone contract.

However, thinking realistically about these numbers: They look very much like T-Mobile might go for them. If they set the price and entry points lower, they'll piss off their existing customers (or new customers to the old plans for that matter). After all if an existing T-Mobile customer changes contracts and moves to an iPhone Apple wins but T-Mobile probably gets less money out of the customer.

The only people they are after are new customers changing over from other carriers (me).

bugabuga
Oct 19, 2007, 11:00 AM
Keep in mind, that all prices in Germany include all taxes (federal, state, VAT) and fees (universal service, number etc.)
So if you only phone 100 minutes and make 40 SMS and you are on the small plan, you will only have to pay 49 Euro.
In the US, there are several taxes and fees that end up on top of the announced monthly plan.

On the other hand if you get yourself O2 Inklusive Pakete you get 100 minutes and 100 SMS for 10 Euros (http://shop2.o2online.de/nw/produkte/tarife/active/index.html?nidx=1) (or 20 if you get free handset too). Add to that 5 Euros for unlimited WAP browsing, or, if you want regular "full internet" 10 Euros for 200MB/Month or 25 Euros for 5000MB and you get yourself a better deal :)
Buy unlocked iPhone, use it with O2 :D

hanshansen
Oct 19, 2007, 02:22 PM
On the other hand if you get yourself O2 Inklusive Pakete you get 100 minutes and 100 SMS for 10 Euros (http://shop2.o2online.de/nw/produkte/tarife/active/index.html?nidx=1) (or 20 if you get free handset too). Add to that 5 Euros for unlimited WAP browsing, or, if you want regular "full internet" 10 Euros for 200MB/Month or 25 Euros for 5000MB and you get yourself a better deal :)
Buy unlocked iPhone, use it with O2 :D

this would be 47 euro: 10 for 10min, 12 for 100sms, 25 for 5000MB and you cant use wifi-hotspot and mobilebox-feature.

joker0421
Oct 19, 2007, 02:36 PM
and you have to keep in mind, that there is no EDGE on the O2 network, so you will have to use GPRS. And even though EDGE is not really fast, it's still five times faster than GPRS..

bugabuga
Oct 19, 2007, 03:38 PM
this would be 47 euro: 10 for 10min, 12 for 100sms, 25 for 5000MB and you cant use wifi-hotspot and mobilebox-feature.
Incorrect. 100 outgoing SMS are included free or take another 15% discount for ordering online, which applies to data too (UMTS, yay!).
If you don't want to tether and just browse/email from your handset, WAP package Surf und E-Mail Pack should probably be enough, which is 5 Euros and is unlimited. So it's either 35 Euro (10 for 100 mins+100 free SMS, 25 for 5000Mb) or 15 Euros.
With UMTS I didn't really try to use any wifi hotspots anyways. Wish there was UMTS iPhone...

bugabuga
Oct 19, 2007, 03:43 PM
and you have to keep in mind, that there is no EDGE on the O2 network, so you will have to use GPRS. And even though EDGE is not really fast, it's still five times faster than GPRS..
The worst part of GPRS/EDGE is that calls will go to voicemail while you're actively downloading (if there's a pause in the session then phone will ring) otherwise it's slow no matter what :( Though given that O2 allows roaming on T-Mobile ... ;)

Poff
Oct 19, 2007, 05:08 PM
I wonder how the Norwegian iPhone rate plan will end up being..?

My current rate plan: (excluding tax)
$0 / month
120 free minutes ($0,10 per minute after your 120mins, $0,10 after 400mins)
90 free sms ($0,05 per sms after your 90 free sms's.)
data, $0,60 per MB.
voicemail, $2,40 / month.

I'm sure the iPhone plans will be higher than this, but I hope they'll be nowhere near what they've been in all the other countries. The prices are crazy!

SilvorX
Oct 19, 2007, 05:22 PM
Yep, it's a stupid system IMO, coming from Australia where the caller pays all. It sucks even more when some company cold-calls me trying to sell me something, I end up paying for the call! Not to mention being charged in and out SMS, that's just plain double-dipping...
That price plan is definitely a kick in the sensitive area.

In Canada we get screwed over in wireless plans in general, although I'm much luckier than some, $12 plan that includes 250 daytime minutes, unlimited nights starting at 5PM, unlimited weekends, 1000 Canadian Long distance minutes for $5, 5 megabytes of data for $5, and Unlimited SMS to Canadian/US mobile phones for $6.67 (if sent within Canada).

Under $30 for all that, I'm pretty spoiled

obirah
Oct 19, 2007, 06:30 PM
The minutes of the plan definitely stink, but I must say that getting free access to T-Moblie's wifi network is pretty sweet.

Well, for me as a T-Com customer that comes with my DSL subscription, so for me this deal is pretty expensive.
And although 8500 hot spots sound great, I must say that in smaller towns it's almost impossible to find a spot... or the available spots are somewhere you never go :)

This is the beauty of Hotspots, though, as many ICE trains have them. So you could take an ICE from Frankfurt to Berlin, and possibly access unlimited WiFi for free the entire journey!

How often do you travel with the ICE from Frankfurt to Berlin (104 EUR without the Bahncard50)?

I live in Münster and we have like 20 Hot Spots - only at cafes and stuff like that where I mostly meet friends and have a nice chat with them rather than surfing and zooming on a small screen. The whole thing looks great on paper, but I really don't see a big use of these Hot Spots...

JoeG4
Oct 19, 2007, 11:44 PM
Man that's insane. I was just putting together the numbers and the US equivalent of that with tmobile would be around $65 a month. ($40 1000 min plan (contract of course) + $5 SMSes + $20 internet and hotspots)...

They have to pay twice as much.. and TMo is a german company. WTF?!

empezar
Oct 20, 2007, 01:40 AM
erhm.. that's expensive.

my current plan (in sweden) costs €0.06 per CALL (unlimited minutes), SMS or MMS. granted the data cost is very high (€1.21 per MB) but if you don't use 3G/WAP, it gets very cheap.

the monthly cost is €14.75.

zwobot
Oct 20, 2007, 08:01 AM
Rene Obermann interviewed in mondays Spiegel confirmed the published rates, german link here:

http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/mobil/0,1518,512566,00.html

joker0421
Oct 20, 2007, 02:12 PM
He didn't confirm these rates, he has just said, that the cheapest plan will be less than 50€ a month.

Redwraithvienna
Oct 20, 2007, 04:02 PM
You really cant compare the German CellPhone rates with the rest of Europe.

I am from Austria, and i am also using T-Mobile (The Austrian Branch).

My Plan is 25 € for 1000 Minutes too landlines, 1000 Minutes to other TMobile Cell Phones, and 1000 Minutes to all other Cell Phone Companys. I do have to pay extra for texts though ... but at 20cent / each thats not that much ... so all in all my cell phone bill is +- 30 € a month.

Tmobile has a new Data plan out here now which i got which costs 25 € / month including 10 GB traffic on their 3G network.

So at 55 € a month i got more or less endless phone calls (i never used all my minutes up) and more then enough traffic for my mobile data needs.

Oh btw cause someone said that internet is so expansive in Europe. It depends where. I am paying 29€ for a 20 Mbit / flat line in Vienna. so here its cheap ... my cousins on the other hand who live in a more rural area are totally screwed. They pay like 40 € for a 4Mbit line with a 10 GB traffic limit.

Oh and btw : Those prices are with all taxes included. (which makes it a tad easier to compare imho)

The prices vary so much between the countries in Europe that you just cant say "The US is cheaper" or "Europe is cheaper".

And even a direct comparison of the price by saying "OMG the plan is like 80 bucks US" makes hardly any sense cause the buying power of the USD is so low at the moment. (thats also why i am sooo looking forward to christms shopping in New York this year). If the USD / EUR value would be 1:1 or close to that then you could compare the price. And even then its complicated.

ben24ben
Oct 21, 2007, 10:50 AM
Heftige Preise, very expensive. I think, Apple makes a big mistake with the iPhone in Germany. You must understand – lot of people hier in Germany know nothing about Apple and the History of the company. Germany is – for 98 Percent – a Microsoft-Country. The Macuser here meet each other in special meetings called "Treffs" - the only possibility to see other Users with Macs.

And a lot of people hier in Germany think, Apple Products are too expensive. And they think, Apple Products are very special - the products are closed and locked for other software. The iPod was for the people here the first contact with Apple - and they like it. But now Apple want to sell the iPhone here – SIM-locked, closed and expensive. I hear often "it's typical for Apple" - and i think, Apple lost with this iPhone-Politics a lot of Sympathies here.
Heftige Preise, very expensive. I think, Apple makes a big mistake with the iPhone in Germany. You must understand – lot of people hier in Germany know nothing about Apple and the History of the company. Germany is – for 98 Percent – a Microsoft-Country. The Macuser here meet each other in special meetings called "Treffs" - the only possibility to see other Users with Macs.

And a lot of people hier in Germany think, Apple Products are too expensive. And they think, Apple Products are very special - the products are closed and locked for other software. The iPod was for the people here the first contact with Apple - and they like it. But now Apple want to sell the iPhone here – SIM-locked, closed and expensive. I hear often "it's typical for Apple" - and i think, Apple lost with this iPhone-Politics a lot of Sympathies here.

Viele in meiner Umgebung suchen eine Alternative zu Microsoft-Produkten – doch Apples iPhone-Politik sorgt nicht gerade für Vertrauen.

rajulkabir
Oct 21, 2007, 04:05 PM
Yep, it's a stupid system IMO, coming from Australia where the caller pays all. It sucks even more when some company cold-calls me trying to sell me something, I end up paying for the call! Not to mention being charged in and out SMS, that's just plain double-dipping...
Called-party-pays (the system in the US, Canada, China, Singapore, etc.) makes more economic sense - for this reason Australia is considering switching.

If you have "free" incoming calls, then anyone who wants to call you has to pay a rate which set by your mobile carrier.

However, the people who call you have no market power over that rate. If they don't like it, they can't switch carriers, because they're not the customer - you are.

The result is that mobile termination costs tend to be quite high in caller-pays markets, often making up the bulk of revenues.

As you can imagine, a market in which the bulk of revenues are levied as a virtual tax on people with no market power (the callers) does not make for effective competition.

This is why total per-minute call costs (cost of dialing plus cost of answering the same call) are on average higher in Europe than in USA. And it's why regulators in Europe are constantly wringing their hands over fiddling with the market because they can't get rates down anywhere near the marginal costs of providing the service.

Wholesale origination + termination (total end-to-end cost for a call) in the USA is around €0,01. In many European markets it's €0.10 or more.

In the long run I think you will find that most non-monopoly markets will move to called-party-pays as Asian countries are starting to, and USA/Canada have done all along. The only alternatives are heavy-handed regulation, or persistently high charges and the accompanying economic friction.

There are easy solutions for the telemarketer problem - for example, just regulate that the first 30 seconds of an incoming call have to be free unless it is a number you have dialed before.

TurboSC
Oct 21, 2007, 04:24 PM
yea after looking at the rate plans, I feel a little better about the US wireless situation.

AtomicGarden83
Oct 21, 2007, 05:31 PM
T-mobile are greedy people. They were always more expensive than other German carriers. I'm with e-Plus, and haven't signed a contract. I prefer pay-as-you-go. Here in Germany I'm with Blau, when I'm in the UK I have a pay-as-you-go sim-card running with Virgin Mobile. Blau charges me 5 cent/Min for calls to other Blau numbers, 15 cent to landlines and any other German mobile networks... Sending a SMS sets me back 10 cent. Remember I don't have to pay monthly fees and am free to not charge my card for half a year until my number gets voided. In Europe, pay-as-you-go is usually even more expensive than opting for a regular contract.

Also customers in Europe don't have to pay for incoming calls.

So my pay-as-you-go "contract" is not a bad deal after all - compared to the iPhone contract it is indeed a very good choice. I've read the article in Der Spiegel, and they mentioned that it's about as expensive as the UK's O2 contract.... Can't comment on that for that I don't know O2's price scheme. I really don't get why Apple chose T-Mobile over E-Plus. E-Plus is a decent provider with quite cheap rates and their coverage is now as good as T-Mobiles and you can even get a flatrate for free, unlimited calls to landlines and other E-Plus numbers... WiFi coverage in western Europe is just as good or as bad as WiFi coverage in the US....

In my oppinion the T-Mobile rates are just hideous, but what do you expect when going with T-Mobile?

cheers,
jan

crusher
Oct 22, 2007, 02:51 AM
Wow, those are sweet prices. I thought Germany had low prices on Internet but that's cool. I don't think they even have 20Mbit in Germany yet.

Umm, you're wrong. German Telekom offers VDSL with 50Mbit/s in the larger cities. They do charge you >65€, but that seems reasonable, since it's triple play (IPTV, Phone, Internet).
And you get unlimited internet with 16Mbit/s for €25.

Back to Topic:
Those prices aren't cheap, but it could have been worse. Remember, real unlimited calling still is at least 68€ (O2 68€, eplus/BASE 75€, vodafone and t-mobile don't offer real unlimited calling), and that neither includes text (mostly 0.19€ per message), nor data.
Soft limit data flatrates (5GB) are offered for about 45€ at T-Mobile, with vodafone there is a hidden option that gets you unlimited 3G-access for 10€ extra.
Anyways, the iPhone is not worth the money if you compare it to the Nokia n95, which does not offer a touchscreen or has great battery life, but is superior with its HSDPA and GPS capabilities. Add multimedia-messaging and gimmicks like your own MP3-ringtone, and you get a more functional phone at lower cost. And since HSDPA is offered with 7.2Mbit/s and quite good coverage, it would be stupid to go with the iPhone.

twoodcc
Oct 22, 2007, 05:47 AM
Wow $70 for the lowest plan, that sucks. Plus you only get 100min, and 40 sms. Not sure that its worth it to even own a cellphone in Europe if thats the going rate and/or typical plan.

yeah that does suck. but at least they don't pay for incoming calls and messages though

Diatribe
Oct 22, 2007, 10:32 AM
Umm, you're wrong. German Telekom offers VDSL with 50Mbit/s in the larger cities. They do charge you >65€, but that seems reasonable, since it's triple play (IPTV, Phone, Internet).
And you get unlimited internet with 16Mbit/s for €25.

Back to Topic:
Those prices aren't cheap, but it could have been worse. Remember, real unlimited calling still is at least 68€ (O2 68€, eplus/BASE 75€, vodafone and t-mobile don't offer real unlimited calling), and that neither includes text (mostly 0.19€ per message), nor data.
Soft limit data flatrates (5GB) are offered for about 45€ at T-Mobile, with vodafone there is a hidden option that gets you unlimited 3G-access for 10€ extra.
Anyways, the iPhone is not worth the money if you compare it to the Nokia n95, which does not offer a touchscreen or has great battery life, but is superior with its HSDPA and GPS capabilities. Add multimedia-messaging and gimmicks like your own MP3-ringtone, and you get a more functional phone at lower cost. And since HSDPA is offered with 7.2Mbit/s and quite good coverage, it would be stupid to go with the iPhone.

Goes to show how fast technology changes. And I have only been living abroad for 2 years.
I want that 50MBit VDSL. :D

Dembo
Oct 22, 2007, 11:44 AM
With regards to the 100min included: Keep in mind that most likely these will be counted using 60/60 or 60/1 slots. In the end this translates to just 100 calls per month (max.), i.e. approx. three a day.

Damn, I was really looking forward getting an iPhone and even though I can easily afford 50,- €/month getting less than 100 calls (and a laughable amount of text messages) for that amount of money? Sorry, no deal. :(

odedia
Oct 23, 2007, 05:09 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Of note, in Europe, minutes and messages listed only apply when making outgoing calls or outgoing SMS messages. Incoming calls and messages are not counted against you.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/18/iphone-rate-plans-for-germany/)

What?? in the U.S. you are paying for INCOMING calls as well?!

ogee
Oct 24, 2007, 03:59 PM
I was in a T-Mobile store today in Munich and I asked if the iPhone tariff was out yet. I was told it will be announced on 2nd Nov (i.e. 1 week before launch).

So until then there is no point getting worked up.

ABM
Oct 25, 2007, 06:00 AM
Unfortunately the rumored plan structure (50,-/70,-/90,- €) looks very typical to T-Mobile...

crusher
Oct 25, 2007, 08:48 AM
The T-Mobile store (T-Punkt Frankfurt-Sachsenhausen) around the corner had an iPhone-counter installed 2 weeks ago. Looks pretty nice :rolleyes:

Dembo
Oct 25, 2007, 09:47 AM
The T-Mobile store (T-Punkt Frankfurt-Sachsenhausen) around the corner had an iPhone-counter installed 2 weeks ago. Looks pretty nice :rolleyes:

Oi crusher stay out of that particular T-Mobile store - that's the one I'll be on the 9th and we don't want them to run out of iPhone's don't we? :p

Seriously though: I don't mind € 50,- per month at all but they have to offer more than three calls a day and one - get this people - 1(.3) text messages a day.

Nevertheless, the rumor seems credible and might be the real reason why they did not publish the plans when El Jobso showed up in Berlin: Yesterday UK: 200mins, gazillion of text messages, today Germany: 100mins, 40 text message - suck it up (German) people! :(

My only hope is that some bozo made up those rate plans based on the currently available plans, which seems stupid given that the phone isn't subsidized.

I'm in a tight spot: My existing contract is ending on the 9th of November - so after they announce the plans I have to have a "fallback" plan to buy a different phone. Any ideas?

ABM
Oct 29, 2007, 05:16 AM
The next Telekom store to me is under construction at the moment and will reopen at 11/8. I think i will see an new iPhone corner there after reopening.

Still 5 days to wait for the official T-mobile rate plan release...

ABM
Oct 29, 2007, 11:18 AM
50 / 70 / 90 € was true... :(

http://scr3.golem.de/?d=0710/iPhone_TMobile&a=55686&s=1
source: macnews.de - abraxx

aramelus
Oct 29, 2007, 02:58 PM
50 / 70 / 90 € was true... :(

http://scr3.golem.de/?d=0710/iPhone_TMobile&a=55686&s=1
source: macnews.de - abraxx

No its even worse. After 200MB/1GB/5GB they limit your bandwidth to 64kbit even on Wi-Fi. These prices are total rip off even for German standards.

Edit: Oh and these prices are official http://www.t-mobile.de/iphone/tarife.jsp

ABM
Oct 29, 2007, 06:20 PM
No its even worse. After 200MB/1GB/5GB they limit your bandwidth to 64kbit even on Wi-Fi. These prices are total rip off even for German standards.

:confused: Did you see picture one and two? No, it's not even worse... those screenshots were the official rate plans... the very expensive rate plans!

I hate T-Mobile!

I think i will buy my iPhone in France. Unlocked, no contract... just have to wait until end ov November. :o

vffikoncer
Nov 3, 2007, 07:46 AM
I like the free wifi instead of 3g.