Apple Posts Mac OS 10.5 Leopard Guided Tour

[pito189]

I'm dumb, I had already done this. I thought this was something else.

Thanks.

[conanwar]

Try carbon copy cloner. I used it as a Mac Consultant for Appalachian State University for cloning and reimaging builds. It is great for a complete copy of the system and it is free.

http://www.bombich.com/software/ccc.html

Yes, but does it have the ability to do an update like Time Machine? After creating an image which could take hours can I just do an update to backup the changes for the image?

[philgilder]

What are you two talking about? And where is this app info that you speak of?

removing extra languages from an app speeds up the loading
and the 'bounces' are the number of times the icon bounces on the dock whilst loading

[psychofreak]

Yes, but does it have the ability to do an update like Time Machine? After creating an image which could take hours can I just do an update to backup the changes for the image?

I will be using TM, but right now I use SuperDuper (http://www.shirt-pocket.com/SuperDuper/SuperDuperDescription.html)!, free without this function, but you have to pay to have the quick update backup :)

[Eidorian]

Yes, but does it have the ability to do an update like Time Machine? After creating an image which could take hours can I just do an update to backup the changes for the image?I have a vague recollection that CCC could use an rsync (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rsync) plug-in in order to do differentials.

[antdgar]

What are you two talking about? And where is this app info that you speak of?

I asked the same question earlier. It's "get info" when you ctrl+click on the application icons in applications folder. You can disable other languages.

Edit: Wow. Someone replied before me. And with pictures!

[conanwar]

More questions,

Is the external drive thats used for backup by Time Machine encrypted? I really hope that you can configure Time Machine to do a 256-bit encryption to protect the data from theft (Software encryption of course).

And does Time Machine automatically defrag the external drive? Might be a silly question but would like to know what house keeping does it do on the back end.

And what happened if there is a bad block on the backup drive, how does Time Machine recover from it. Does it just report the damaged file on the drive or does it give you the ability to go to a previous version.

And will Time Machine support ZFS?

[conanwar]

And can you partition an external 1 Terabyte drive lets say 512 GB/512 GB and configure Time Machine to use the second partition for backups while using the first partition for data drive mounted on the Mac.

[psychofreak]

And can you partition an external 1 Terabyte drive lets say 512 MB/512 MB and configure Time Machine to use the second partition for backups while using the first partition for data drive mounted on the Mac.

Yes :)

[Eidorian]

And can you partition an external 1 Terabyte drive lets say 512 MB/512 MB and configure Time Machine to use the second partition for backups while using the first partition for data drive mounted on the Mac.Yes you can.

[antdgar]

512MB is a small partition on a 1TB drive :rolleyes:

[breal8406]

Well, since you are always going against me as a "fanboy", it's not surprising that you single out my remarks for your "enlightened" answers.

I couldn't care less about SJ and his billions, but I value his contributions as a "keeper of the Apple way"; indeed, without happy customers and "fanboys" like me, Apple would be nonexistent as of now. We were the ones believing in the company and buying its products when everyone else was screaming "down with Apple" or "Apple is doomed".

I was among the ones using System when it was still a closed "System", and I cherish that. I played with SCSI when any other PC was with IDE. I had ADB and the Apple Extended Keyboard II when you guys had serial crap.

With "on the fence" attitudes like yours, I am sure Apple would be getting nothing by then. Instead, I am sure those "rational customers" would have jumped ship a long time ago, be it for Amiga, Linux, Sun or the grand ol' PC.

Once more, NO thanks; I will be waiting for clear arguments on why Windows with a PC is better than OS X with a Mac. Apart from gaming and custom apps, there is nothing of an argument from your part to defend Windows...I know it's difficult to see why we like it so much, especially when you are unable to see that the key is seamless integration and design made FOR the customer, and not the opposite, where the customer has to adapt himself to whatever crap these companies do. That's why:

1 - the iPod is still the best;
2 - the iPhone is shocking the mobile world;
3 - the Mac has always been better.

Well, you have always known it, right? :rolleyes:




I'm with him. But I think Apple is still developing its overall product strategy in that they have a "lifestyle" or "a way of doing things" that they envision that's not quite there yet, at least not all the way revealed, and I think Apple users are constantly adapting to what's the latest and greatest in that little vision as they reveal it over time.

I don't know about you guys but I love the fact that my iPhone syncs with my Mac which syncs with my AppleTV....then the results get put up on my 32 inch Samsung flat screen. (at least media wise)

I don't know if any of you guys realize this....but alot of the information in "View Options" in iTunes is also information you can use to make Smart Playlists and it's information that's updated as part of the sync between Mac & iDevice/AppleTV.

I can't wait to see what Apple has for collaboration and and the "calendaring/ToDo list" part of it. I think iPhone, and Video conferencing are just the start. I think there are some fascinating capabilities in the new iCal that are meant to be a part of it too.

What's great about Apple is they got their security, stability, and compatibility down. Microsoft still seems to advertise those things as main features more often than not. I think Microsoft talks about these things.....Apple does them. Steve Jobs said that once. I think it was at the Tiger Intro Keynote when he was unveiling Spotlight. The Apple cult is moving forward and has been, I think, since 2001. The Micro-softies...I can't say so much for.

[GoodWatch]

Well, since you are always going against me as a "fanboy", it's not surprising that you single out my remarks for your "enlightened" answers.That's why:

1 - the iPod is still the best;
2 - the iPhone is shocking the mobile world;
3 - the Mac has always been better.

Well, you have always known it, right? :rolleyes:

Let this day be noted as the day of 'My First Encounter' :p

[psychofreak]

512MB is a small partition on a 1TB drive :rolleyes:

I can't believe I didn't notice that!

[Eidorian]

I can't believe I didn't notice that!I ignored the user error.

I was going to comment on it but I decided to delete it. It explains why my previous reply is after yours. ;)

[conanwar]

512MB is a small partition on a 1TB drive :rolleyes:

hihihihi, i meant GB. check my original post. it says 512 GB. Not sure where you got the 512 MB. lolz

Another question, is the data backup scheme proprietary to Time Machine or can I access the files through the Finder?

[Eidorian]

hihihihi, i meant GB.

Another question, is the data backup scheme proprietary to Time Machine or can I access the files through the Finder?It looks like it's a bundle of some sort. (e.g. .pkg or .app)

[conanwar]

512MB is a small partition on a 1TB drive :rolleyes:

Apple came up with a fantastic compression algorithm that lets you backup 1 TB of data to a 512 MB partition. Not sure how they do it. But they are amazing!!!
You can say it's almost magical.

[Eidorian]

Apple came up with a fantastic compression algorithm that lets you backup 1 TB of data to a 512 MB partition. Not sure how they do it. But they are amazing!!!
You can say it's almost magical.I've seen 7z (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7z) do ~200 MB to about 8 MB before.

[Mac OS X Ocelot]

SJ at least should have popped in, maybe during iChat, SJ instead of the gal

The entire universe would have exploded, just like Christopher Lloyd predicted in ''Back to the Future.''

[GoodWatch]

I ignored the user error.

I was going to comment on it but I decided to delete it. It explains why my previous reply is after yours. ;)

In a Capt. Mainwaring tone of voice: "I wondered who'd spot that one first!" ;) :p Sorry, OT but couldn't resist.....

[conanwar]

SJ at least should have popped in, maybe during iChat, SJ instead of the gal

No way, it would have been better if he popped into an existing iChat where SJ was romancing that gal out to a dinner date.

:D

[GoodWatch]

Apple came up with a fantastic compression algorithm that lets you backup 1 TB of data to a 512 MB partition. Not sure how they do it. But they are amazing!!!
You can say it's almost magical.

The 'Sloot Digital Coding System' :D

[Dagless]

Finally got round to downloading this overnight, I'm pretty excited for the new OS now :) Some features look like they will make everything a little bit easy. Data bits (or whatever they were called) are going to come in so useful, and all that stuff about notes, quick look and the new Finder interface, not to mention Time Machine just looks spectacular.

I really can't wait now! Hoping it doesn't run too bad on my PowerBook so I can have both my Macs on Leopard.

[conanwar]

I can't wait until they come out with Virtual Camp to virtualize the CPU by using "Intel Virtualization Technology" and partitioning or sharing the hardware so that you can run OS X and Vista side by side on the same Mac. It would be great to switch instantaneously without the need to reboot.

Has anyone tried installing two copies of Mac OS X switching back and forth using Boot Camp? Is Boot camp limited to just two host operating systems?

[psychofreak]

Has anyone tried installing two copies of Mac OS X switching back and forth using Boot Camp? Is Boot camp limited to just two hosts?

Boot Camp is not needed for this, you just need to partition the drive...

If you want more OSs, you can do that, and OnMac (http://www.onmac.net/) has the simplest triple booting solution for OSX+Windows+Linux :)

[slackpacker]

there are loads of features apples copied, loads that Microsoft's coped, and loads that linux have copied
as others have said, its hard to be totally innovative these days


what did they take, and what for? just wondering...

After reading this again I agree with Phil

[HLdan]

Did anyone ask me what I thought could be improved in Leopard? No. If they did I would have said several things...

1. NTFS write support
2. Less crap embedded in Mail. I don't need stationary. It could have been something you set up in iWeb and then export to a mail message.
3. The new dock look does nothing for me.
4. The Time Machine background is unattractive due to the yellow/black scheme.
5. Res Independence isn't fully supported yet
6. blah blah ..I'm not going to waste any more time explaining myself to a troll.

I have to disagree with you as your posting about Mail is illogical. When you go to the post office what do they try and sell you? "Stationary". This is great feature (that you don't have to use) that makes emails a lot more useful as well as fun. Email gets tired and boring and it's bad enough that we have to read boring business email at work then you have to come home and read another boring, business style looking email on your own computer.
Your way makes people NOT want to use stationary. It's not enough that certain really cool features require the user to make them happen starting with Automator that most people run away from because it's requires a few steps but you want them to get stationary from iWeb and then export it into Mail? What I like about OS X is it's ease of use, your way does not mimic that.

[7111497121]

I assume it will be there in 10.6 ...even in Tiger you can download things like MacFUSE to get read/write NTFS support

http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/23729/macfuse

Having read this I had a look around, downloaded macfuse from the google site, and ntfs-3g from another site and got NTFS read/write operational in a jiffy :) So didn't know this was around... anyone tried using this on Leopard? Still works fine I'd hope?

[irahodges]

Having read this I had a look around, downloaded macfuse from the google site, and ntfs-3g from another site and got NTFS read/write operational in a jiffy :) So didn't know this was around... anyone tried using this on Leopard? Still works fine I'd hope?

can someone explain to me what the use is of having NTFS write capability? just curious what you can do with it.

[Eidorian]

can someone explain to me what the use is of having NTFS write capability? just curious what you can do with it.You can write to drives formatted to the NTFS file system and thus improve interoperability?

[psychofreak]

can someone explain to me what the use is of having NTFS write capability? just curious what you can do with it.

It means you can share a drive with a Windows PC that is NTFS formatted, or write to a NTFS formatted Boot Camp drive...

[zweigand]

Your way makes people NOT want to use stationary.
Bingo! HTML Emails are a plague ;)

[conanwar]

You can write to drives formatted to the NTFS file system and thus improve interoperability?

Wonder if Time Machine would work with NTFS file systems mounted?

[psychofreak]

Wonder if Time Machine would work with NTFS file systems mounted?

Right now the latest info is HFS+ only...

[Eidorian]

Wonder if Time Machine would work with NTFS file systems mounted?If OS X could directly write to a NTFS partition, maybe.

[cohibadad]

can someone explain to me what the use is of having NTFS write capability? just curious what you can do with it.

one thing it does is allow you to create a boot camp partition greater than 32 Gb with NTFS and directly write to it from Mac OS X.

[jokarak]

I've been meaning to get a new Macbook Pro when Leopard came out, but I decided to wait til next year after the next rumored revision...I still have my G4 PB, which is plugging away.

I've been reading this thread and the mutation (yet again) to the merits between Mac vs the world (with particular attention to Vista/XP). I'm sure you guys must have read the article about fanboys at extremetech.com...and unfortunately, some people on this thread have been living proof that the author was not kidding. Lots of people have serious blinders on when it comes to Apple and its products.

Unfortunately, by reading the discussion, it doesn't seem that most people on either side of the argument lack knowledge about computers. The stereotypical "fanboy" would usually be the person that is not as tech-savy, and thus, embraces the lifestyle and the "it just works" theory proposed by Apple. I find it easier to understand this type of fanboyism (ugh) than people who are knowledgeable of computers who also seem to blindly toe the party line.

Simply stated, Vista doesn't "suck." OSX is not the second coming. They are both tools to do the job. I guess here is where I have to post my resume to ensure that I'm not a biased Gates-drone: I've been using computers since the days of TRS-80 in middle school, my first PC was an Atari 400 (loved programming BASIC in it and saving on a tape - I even wrote a very simple music program on the 800 that could play music by using 3 joysticks). People who claim that PCs are the supreme gaming platform forget that computer gaming really had its first renaissance on the Apple II+, which I loved.

The first PC I had was an AST 386 (after I got rid of my Atari ST...sob). I think it was in the neighborhood of 4MHz? From then til years after college I was a PC guy, though still fondly remembered the II+ and my ST. Used Macs in college, of course, but they were black and white only contraptions, tiny monitors, didn't do much for me. My first Mac was the mac Pro aluminum tower, which I bought 2 months before the middle option became a dual processor, then I got the lampshade iMac...very neat little computer. Now I have the aforementioned G4 PB, a mini, just got a macbook for my wife. I also am typing this on my main computer, a PC I put together 5 months ago (a core2duo) w/ Vista Ultimate and two monitors. I guess all told, I have about 10 computers in my house, with about 6 being used in a regular basis.

You know what? I like both platforms...and I also run Ubuntu on by PB, just for kicks. Let's not get too caught up in the hype machine that is Apple. These are tools, and you can enjoy them for what they are. Neither is perfect, both are very good. For the poster who dreaded the thought that XP is probably running a computer that might save his life, I'm sure he is just kidding, because most interactions that he has with computers, from the supermarket to the bank to the hospital to schools, all have windows in them, and they run well.

You know what is my private fear? Imagine a scenario where Apple, with SJ at the helm, with their hubris, hush-hush mentality, we can do no wrong, take over other people's intellectual property and run them over, my lifestyle is better than yours attitude had 93% of the market. That is a lot scarier than the world we live in now.

I've been rambling way too much...venting, really. Sorry if I offended anyone. Now back to your regular programming.

Quick question: on my wife's macbook. When I get Leopard and do a clean install, can I use the discs that came with the computer to reinstall only iLife 08? Never had to do this, since when I ugraded to Tiger on my PB, I had bought iLife '04, too.

[Eidorian]

You know what is my private fear? Imagine a scenario where Apple, with SJ at the helm, with their hubris, hush-hush mentality, we can do no wrong, take over other people's intellectual property and run them over, my lifestyle is better than yours attitude had 93% of the market. That is a lot scarier than the world we live in now.Post of the day.



Quick question: on my wife's macbook. When I get Leopard and do a clean install, can I use the discs that came with the computer to reinstall only iLife 08? Never had to do this, since when I ugraded to Tiger on my PB, I had bought iLife '04, too.You can reinstall it using the bundled application installer on the DVD. Which will...only install the bundled applications. ;)

[jokarak]

one thing it does is allow you to create a boot camp partition greater than 32 Gb with NTFS and directly write to it from Mac OS X.

Yup, that would be the main advantage. The way I do it now is by having a NAS in my network. Since it is basically a Linux box running a light OS that is read/write for both Mac and Windows, I write whatever I need to share between computers or between boot camp partitions to the NAS. Not the most elegant solution, by any means, but gets the job done. Moreover, the price of these things have gone down considerably. My NAS is a little Linksys box that takes SATA drives...I think it cost around $150, and adding a couple of 500GB drives will set you back another $350 or so (don't remember the latest prices, sorry). Have it run as mirrored drives, and presto, instant backup for your music and family photos.

added later
Doh, I forgot, you can just use a thumb drive, too, for smaller files (heck, a 1GB thumb drive is so cheap nowadays)

[jokarak]

Post of the day.


You can reinstall it using the bundled application installer on the DVD. Which will...only install the bundled applications. ;)

Thanks a bunch for the information. I know that I'll end up buying iLife 08, just to install on my other macs, as well, but don't see myself doing it just now.

[Goldenbear]

Owned? How? Does Apple suddenly own the consumer market? Did major corporations around the world suddenly stop using Windows servers? Leopard is a very nice OS, and maybe it'll help Apple gain 1-2% market share, but no matter how hard Apple tries, it will never unseat Microsoft from its throne. They had their chance back in the 90s and they blew it.

Wow, must've struck a nerve :rolleyes:

My post was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but do I really have to spell it out for you?

MS spends what, 5 years, or something like that on Vista? And it debuted to a collective yawn from the entire industry.

Apple comes out with Leopard in something like 2 years (or less), and everyone can't seem to give it enough praise.

Will MS continue to dominate the OS marketplace? Of course! Is Leopard perfect? Of course not! But Apple just showed (again) how much better they are at producing quality software that makes it easy for the general public to use AND that people find appealing. THAT'S how MS got owned.

At the end of the day, OS X will continue to run a far 2nd place in the consumer OS arena, but that fact doesn't mean it's a 2nd rate OS. I can't believe people take this stuff so seriously :rolleyes:

[cohibadad]

You know what is my private fear? Imagine a scenario where Apple, with SJ at the helm, with their hubris, hush-hush mentality, we can do no wrong, take over other people's intellectual property and run them over, my lifestyle is better than yours attitude had 93% of the market. That is a lot scarier than the world we live in now.

I don't think you need to worry about that ever happening. I am interested in what exactly about that scenario is "scarier than the world we live in now?" Personally I like choice and the biggest barrier to choice for the average buyer is the OEM monopoly Microsoft maintains with assemblers like DELL. It would be interesting to see a vibrant market of Linux machine sellers so buyers do not have to pay the Microsoft tax or build their own. From my experience this is how the market breaks down: most businesses that are tied to Windows software, IT, etc. do fine with XP or even 98, most home users would be better off with Mac OS X. Now before someone chimes in with the usual "just install anti-virus, don't download porn or P2P or click on email attachments and Windows is GREAT" reply, I've heard it before and I disagree.

Added: and about that hush-hush mentality? are you talking about Microsoft's willingness to blather on and on about vaporware like Cairo and Surfaces whereas Apple doesn't? what intellectual property did they take over? and what is with that "my lifestyle is better than yours attitude" comment?

[Goldenbear]

...I've been reading this thread and the mutation (yet again) to the merits between Mac vs the world (with particular attention to Vista/XP). I'm sure you guys must have read the article about fanboys at extremetech.com...and unfortunately, some people on this thread have been living proof that the author was not kidding. Lots of people have serious blinders on when it comes to Apple and its products.

Unfortunately, by reading the discussion, it doesn't seem that most people on either side of the argument lack knowledge about computers. The stereotypical "fanboy" would usually be the person that is not as tech-savy, and thus, embraces the lifestyle and the "it just works" theory proposed by Apple. I find it easier to understand this type of fanboyism (ugh) than people who are knowledgeable of computers who also seem to blindly toe the party line...

So what exactly is your point? Other than saying, apparently, that anyone who shows enthusiasm for OS X is a "fanboy"?

Just because we appreciate well-designed GUIs and are fed up with the crap that MS shoves down our throats doesn't mean we are Apple fanboys! :rolleyes:

Apple has its problems, but given the choice between Vista and OS X, I'll pick OS X any day. Vista may not be crap to you, but compared to OS X, as far as ease of use goes, it just can't compete.

I've been playing around with computers since the Trash-80 days, and what I see constantly, is that, in general, the more computer-savvy people just don't seem to appreciate the polished look and feel of OS X's GUI. They prefer endless tweakability over useability, and they're too busy complaining about the .00000001 second longer it takes to open a windows under OS X than XP, or some crap like that :rolleyes:

[slackpacker]

You know what is my private fear? Imagine a scenario where Apple, with SJ at the helm, with their hubris, hush-hush mentality, we can do no wrong, take over other people's intellectual property and run them over, my lifestyle is better than yours attitude had 93% of the market. That is a lot scarier than the world we live in now.

I've been rambling way too much...venting, really. Sorry if I offended anyone. Now back to your regular programming.
.


I don't think that anyone here is as serious as you. We all enjoy computers and Apple will be introducing a new OS X shortly. The Party is coming people are excited. You sir are a little wrong in saying that the Apple community has an attitude.... Of course we do because Apple users are well like Linux users and have to shout to the brain washed Windows crowd for the last 20 years. Don't forget Mac is the Underdog.

As for your "scarier than the world we live in now" statement. With Oil at $90 a barrel, People getting shot in Iraq everyday, Bush treating to invade Iran. I don't think Apples success is that scary.

Just way to much reality.

[Goldenbear]

I agree with you, but why would the "fanboy factor" change anyone's decision? Just use your Mac and ignore them. Joining the Jobs cult is optional.

You would think, but there are many people who refuse to get an iPod (as an example) because "everyone else has one", or "only posers who want to be 'cool' have iPods". Some people are just very over-conscious of what others may think about them, I guess.

What I have a problem with, is that certain people here seem to feel that anyone posting their enthusiasm about an Apple product, without also noting something bad about Apple in the same post, is automatically a "fanboy". It's like you have to flash your "I don't like everything about Apple" creds in every post, or the fanboy police will come after you. :rolleyes:

[liverbomb88]

as an aside to the ongoing M$ vs. :apple: debate, I just want to chime in that I can't wait for the "cow lick" hairstyle to fall out of fashion. John's hair tuft casts a shadow that disrupts the glare coming off the glossy imac screen.:D

[Eidorian]

as an aside to the ongoing M$ vs. :apple: debate, I just want to chime in that I can't wait for the "cow lick" hairstyle to fall out of fashion. John's hair tuft casts a shadow that disrupts the glare coming off the glossy imac screen.:DThat might matter if there was actually anything on the display. :D

[elec999]

Leopard looks good. Lets hope there will be more to it other then looks. All the features The guided tour showed, were shown before by Steve Jobs. I will probably get a new Mac when Leopard is released.
Thanks

[AidenShaw]

as an aside to the ongoing M$ vs. :apple: debate, I just want to chime in that I can't wait for the "cow lick" hairstyle to fall out of fashion. John's hair tuft casts a shadow that disrupts the glare coming off the glossy imac screen.:D

Thanks for the confirmation - it took a while to stop laughing after I saw the picture for this thread.

Maybe I should go up the street to 1 Infinite Loop soon and see what the drones are wearing these days. It could be incredible fun....

Maybe there's a beauty salon on campus where I could get a pointy-haired 'coif!

[addicted44]

i have never said that
all im saying is that previous versions can restore a specific file (no, not contacts, just files) or folder


"wow, a different look and it must be a completely different product!"
youre telling me a ford focus is completely different to a Bugatti veyron? they do the same thing, just in a slightly different manner
and yes, i know time machine is better, but the basic concept is still there


Well, but in this case Time Machine can do things that Windows backup systems cannot (e.g. restore a specific contact, search for a deleted file...). Time Machine is backup made useful, and far far more accessible to the common user. The basic concept of Time Machine is not to make backups...Apple has been doing that with an application called Backup.app for a long time now. The basic concept of Time Machine is to make RECOVERY of backups simple, and reflect the way a real user would actually try to find a deleted file. The implementation is the concept.


Spotlight!!! :) Microsoft released msn desktop search, and start menu search in early betas of vista (both of which index, and let you search all files, like spotlight) before tiger and spotlight came along


MSN search is nothing like Spotlight. Spotlight might appear like MSN search to you, but not to the hundreds of developers building Spotlight integrated applications. The UI is all very MSN search like, but the beauty of Spotlight lies in its low-weight implementation, and its plugin architecture that allows anyone to make their application Spotlight capable (e.g. a recipe application can tell Spotlight to index only the name, and description of a recipe). While I will not deny that MS probably publicly declared search as a Vista feature earlier, fact is, they were not able to delver it until much later. For the common user, Apple made it available first. And dont go around telling people MS invented desktop search. That would piss off a lot of good folks in Google and the Linux camp. Neither Apple, nor MS did. However, Apple was the first to deliver a usable solution.

[jokarak]

I don't think you need to worry about that ever happening. I am interested in what exactly about that scenario is "scarier than the world we live in now?" Personally I like choice and the biggest barrier to choice for the average buyer is the OEM monopoly Microsoft maintains with assemblers like DELL. It would be interesting to see a vibrant market of Linux machine sellers so buyers do not have to pay the Microsoft tax or build their own. From my experience this is how the market breaks down: most businesses that are tied to Windows software, IT, etc. do fine with XP or even 98, most home users would be better off with Mac OS X. Now before someone chimes in with the usual "just install anti-virus, don't download porn or P2P or click on email attachments and Windows is GREAT" reply, I've heard it before and I disagree.

Added: and about that hush-hush mentality? are you talking about Microsoft's willingness to blather on and on about vaporware like Cairo and Surfaces whereas Apple doesn't? what intellectual property did they take over? and what is with that "my lifestyle is better than yours attitude" comment?

Sorry, I don't know how to quote multiple people, so I'll go with this reply and try to generalize from here. My "scarier than now" statement refers, obviously, not to the current state of the world in general (vis a vis oil, Iraq and a bunch of can of worms I won't touch with a ten foot pole), but with the state of the computing world. I should have been more clear.

What I mean is this: 1) hush hush mentality - before the switch to Intel, Apple was extremely secretive on their road map for technological advancement. They still are, but with Intel issuing press reports every other week, it seems, the cat is pretty much out of the bag. Why is being secretive a problem? Well, if I know what is coming up in the horizon, I have a choice. I don't mean that I should sit on the fence forever waiting for the next greatest and bestest (tm), but that at least I have a choice to do that, if I want. I'm sure every mac customer has been burned at one time or another by a new product coming up right after they bought something (iphone price drop, while not directly comparable, is indicative, I suppose, by the amount of negative feedback on that thread).

As for MS vaporware, it doesn't really affect me, I guess. I'm not here defending MS, I have enough bones to pick with them to do that ;) The type of vaporware that really bugs me is the HTC Omni...I was so waiting for that phone :(

2) appropriate other people's IP. OK, maybe a bit of a low blow. What I mean is that everyone in the tech biz takes things from others. MS, Apple, everyone does this. However, Apple has done is a bunch of times, and the fanboy mentality is to give them a free pass, whereas is MS does it, it is a deadly sin. Sure, it is a matter of perspective, a preference for your side (that wasn't on the strike zone, but the ref called it a strike). But, going back to the iPhone as an example (I guess one of the more recent IP issues), it takes a mighty big ego (or guts) to go ahead and declare the name of your product knowing that it is already taken, since you're in negotiations over the use of said name, and fight over it. All is fair in love and war, and business is just a more polite form of war, I guess.

Further back in the thread there was also mention of Konfabulator; we also all know that different computing "desktops" has been in existence at least a decade and a half (true, Apple didn't "take" this IP, but they advertise it like they invented it), look and feel ideas taken from Vista (not many, but enough hints here and there - coverflow is a nice way of giving quick previews, but Vista has their own way already, etc.).

3) lifestyle - Look, I don't know about you guys, but I like maybe 10% of those "I'm a mac" ads, really don't like the way Apple hypes up their "geniuses" (goodness, I've asked simple questions like "Does OSX support Netware/Novell standard for networking?" only to be given a blank stare in return - true, I had to know so that I could integrate my first mac in my network, since we all know that XP has security holes the size of Kansas), etc. I don't want to be Justin Long. I don't want the black turtleneck. I don't really want all the associated baggage that Apple's marketing division keeps trying to sell. Apple has great design, great hardware, a fantastic OS (but not bulletproof...it crashed on me more ways than I can count, hate the beach ball as much as the blue screen of death, which to tell the truth, I haven't seen is years, etc.). Call it a matter of taste, but they should try selling their hardware on those points, not as a lifestyle. Anyone watching Apple ads know that they are pushing a lifestyle beyond their products. It makes sense on a marketing sense - something that MS has not caught on - but nonetheless, the method can backfire if the lifestyle being proposed is not what the customer wants. This customer likes the hardware, not the lifestyle. My choice.

Take all these together, and imagine: Apple owns market share similar to MS has now. You walk down to your local Best Buy, you only see what, 4 or 5 choices in terms of form factor when it comes to computers. Intel is totally on Apple's pocket, so they won't announce their technology road map as clearly, so you don't know whether the newest and greatest mac every build is coming out tomorrow or not. You don't have many options in configuring your hardware; you can't easily change your HD in the laptop, no separate GPU, etc. If you don't agree with their design choices, you're stuck. There is a small market for Linux users who feverishly work to try to get specs and information on hardware components, but they are constantly being dogged by Apple attorneys, and since they own 93% of the market, they have a HUGE legal team and budget. You try to install a new OS in a partition on your mac? The next update will "brick" your computer.

Exaggeration? Yeah, I know, but there is truth, too.

Don't get me wrong, I really do think Apple makes good stuff - I own a bunch of their computers and an iPod. Are they the be all and end all that a lot of mac fanatics claim? Not by a mile. Is Leopard going to be the greatest OS ever? Heck no - consider that every time a new 10.X revision comes out, every fanatic claims that this one is the mostest, bestest, and that the previous one pales by comparison. I think a poster even went as far as saying (I might be wrong here) that after seeing the demo video, he/she thought that Tiger looked ugly in comparison.

Hope I clarified myself (probably not...it's getting late). Sorry for some of the hyperbole I used, I am just trying to illustrate my position. Moreover, I'm sure I must have made a factual error here and there, so please feel free to point it out to me, and I'll take that in consideration.

Now I'm off to watch Ninja Warrior with my kids...I know, to each his own :) Horrible show, but horribly entertaining :D

[zimtheinvader]

Does it show the new H2O collection screen feature? lol

[irahodges]

This is my personal opinion, but i do think each revision of OSX has not only greatly enhanced my efficiency and workflow, but also looks so much better than the previous versions. Therefore, I DO think Tiger looks ugly when compared to how Leopard looks. I will confirm this Friday evening. :D:p

[kgraf6]

I've been reading along as this thread gets longer and finally decided to put my two bobs worth in.

I know there are alot of different topics being discussed, but regarding the new gui in leopard, when I first installed leopard (beta) I looked and said to myself "Apple, what have you done". After using it for a few hours I really started to like the new look. But what really made me love it, was when I reinstalled Tiger...

So, it took me a while to get used to the new look, but I realised how much more modern it is compared to Tiger. Oh, and so much more simplistic than Vista.

The new GUI is perfect as far as I am concerned!

[psychofreak]

Does it show the new H2O collection screen feature? lol

Zing!

[conanwar]

This is my personal opinion, but i do think each revision of OSX has not only greatly enhanced my efficiency and workflow, but also looks so much better than the previous versions. Therefore, I DO think Tiger looks ugly when compared to how Leopard looks. I will confirm this Friday evening. :D:p

SJ is a sly devil.
Why would you want to introduce a perfect operating system with all its bells and whistles. MacOS 9 was the best of its predecessors. Then came the intermittent transitional operating system Rhapsody.

Knowing that they will be introducing a new operating system they decided to start all over again. I was wondering why they did not include all the enhancements from the predecessor. Many features were left out on purpose. Now that they can start all over again they have the opportunity to play around with the GUI and try new tricks here and there to see how the Mac community would react. After 4 releases I think they have locked down to someone that everyone is satisfied with. Now that the GUI is fixed they will be focusing on the internals for their future releases. I do believe minor interface changes are still in the plans.

I personally think that all this was planned over the coming years staged to introduce certain features and functionalities and bringing back those functionalities that were dropped. How else can you maximize profit. You're not going to get rich by showing all your secrets at once.

I would love to see how Microsoft tried to make sense of Apple's strategy on the ever changing GUI interface in hopes to copy it.

[irahodges]

I just read through some of the Time Machine info on Apple's website. Even though they don't give you a lot of information, here is some interesting stuff I found that I previously heard people voice concerns about:

1) Move individual folders and users from time machine to set up new systems
2) Browse any time machine backup...even ones from a different Mac
3) Complete restore of a Mac from Time Machine
4) Do a Manual backup - Control+Click Time Machine for it to do another backup... I assume this helps in case you want a back up of something that was real important to you, but don't want to wait for the next scheduled hourly backup!

all this can be seen at http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/300.html#timemachine
hope this answers some questions

[Evangelion]

Well, since you are always going against me as a "fanboy", it's not surprising that you single out my remarks for your "enlightened" answers.

I single you out because you are the best (or worse, take your pick) example of this behavior. Whenever someone says something positive about a competing non-Apple product, or says something negative about Apple or their products, you start your "<Apple-product-here> is lightyears ahead of anything else on the market, on all possible metrics, all the time! That is a FACT!".

And, if it's any consolation to you, I also single SiliconAddict out, for his constant need to whine about Apple and their products ALL THE TIME, no matter what they do.

without happy customers and "fanboys" like me, Apple would be nonexistent as of now.

Maybe. Or maybe at this point fanatic fanboys like you are actually harming Apple? uber-loyal users were needed in the mid-nineties when everyone felt that Apple was dying. Today Apple is stronger than ever. And to have a subset of users who are extremely aggressive about Apple and their products might actually harm them, since many regural users find their behavior off-putting. Hell, many Mac-users sound apologetic when they tell others that they use a Mac. They say something like "I'm a Mac-user, but I'm not one of THOSE Mac-users....".

We were the ones believing in the company and buying its products when everyone else was screaming "down with Apple" or "Apple is doomed".

Yep, and that was ten years ago. You are no longer needed.

was among the ones using System when it was still a closed "System", and I cherish that. I played with SCSI when any other PC was with IDE. I had ADB and the Apple Extended Keyboard II when you guys had serial crap.

Well, ain't that special?

With "on the fence" attitudes like yours, I am sure Apple would be getting nothing by then. Instead, I am sure those "rational customers" would have jumped ship a long time ago, be it for Amiga, Linux, Sun or the grand ol' PC.

And with people like you, Apple would be nowhere by now. You unconditionally love everything they do. No matter what kind of product they create, you think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. And that breeds complacency. What Apple needs are customers who demand that they do a better job, not users who cream their pants when they release a new set of printer-drivers.

Once more, NO thanks; I will be waiting for clear arguments on why Windows with a PC is better than OS X with a Mac.

OS X IS better than Windows, overall. I'm not trying to claim otherwise. What I AM disputing is your delusional idea that OS X is better than everything else in every single area, all the time, by a wide margin. It's not, deal with it.

Apart from gaming and custom apps, there is nothing of an argument from your part to defend Windows.

You sound like a Monty Python-sketch: "All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"

So you already removed two arguments that support Windows and then claim "there's NOTHING to defend Windows!". Well, there are: Games and custom-apps. And besides those: hardware-support (if Apple does not offer hardware that is suitable for you, then you are screwed. That can't really happen with Windows), software-support. And those two are pretty major things Windows has going for it.

I know it's difficult to see why we like it so much, especially when you are unable to see that the key is seamless integration and design made FOR the customer, and not the opposite, where the customer has to adapt himself to whatever crap these companies do.

Um, the customer has to adapt quite a bit to OS X and Apple in order to use their products. Don't like the menubar at the top of the screen? Tough, adapt! Don't like the Dock? Tough, adapt! Want to use iPhone on other carrier than AT&T? Tough, adapt! Want to use your own ringtones in your iPhone without Apple constantly trying to screw you over? Tough, adapt! Want to use OS X on non-Apple hardware? Tough, adapt!

Seriously: One of the things Apple is notorious for is the tight control they keep their system under. And now you are seriously claiming the opposite? Unbelievable!

Besides: I DO see the appeal of OS X: I use it every day at home. It's my OS of choice. I think it's the best OS available at the moment. But none of that means that I have to think that it's better than everything else on every possible metric, all the time, like you seem to think. We CAN like Macs and OS X without having to cream our pants.

[ruutiveijari]

...
I may be "One of those" Mac-users but that was a great reply.

It's amazing that this "Microsoft vs Apple" -debate is still going. What is it, about 20 years and still going strong?

[psychofreak]

It's amazing that this "Microsoft vs Apple" -debate is still going. What is it, about 20 years and still going strong?
Its a pity how many threads turn to it...I wonder how long until this one is closed...

[Manic Mouse]

Its a pity how many threads turn to it...I wonder how long until this one is closed...

Friday? :p

[philgilder]

Its a pity how many threads turn to it...I wonder how long until this one is closed...
Friday?

well, theres not really much point for this thread after then is there? the welcome video is no longer needed, and this debate could continue for ever

i guess it basically starts for a few of the reasons stated earlier, where one 'uber' :apple: fanboy states thats amazing, never seen that done before, bet microsoft will never be able to do that

and then a knowledgeable/less fanboyish user will come along and say something else

then it all starts... :p

[psychofreak]

well, theres not really much point for this thread after then is there?Answers to the unanswered questions for those who will not yet have installed Leopard...

[garethlewis2]

Not nitpicking, but I noticed a very strange graphic effect when "John", did the coverflow trick of showing a presentation while in the finder. It happens at time 4:47 - 4:48. Here is what occurs. The reflected image contains the new page, but the actual view hasn't changed. It changes a split second later, well actually 500 milliseconds later from the looks of this. It cannot be due to them capturing the screen, that doesn't make any sense, the capture software captures the entire buffer as an individual image then when you finish recording performs DCT.

This leads me to believe that anyone using a machine with a whimpy GPU is going to CRY. On a MBP or a iMac, etc it will work flawlessly. On a 12" PB I dread to see what will happen. More than likely they will just disable all the eye-candy if your machine is not upto scratch.

[Liamf555]

Not nitpicking, but I noticed a very strange graphic effect when "John", did the coverflow trick of showing a presentation while in the finder. It happens at time 4:47 - 4:48. Here is what occurs. The reflected image contains the new page, but the actual view hasn't changed. It changes a split second later, well actually 500 milliseconds later from the looks of this. It cannot be due to them capturing the screen, that doesn't make any sense, the capture software captures the entire buffer as an individual image then when you finish recording performs DCT.

This leads me to believe that anyone using a machine with a whimpy GPU is going to CRY. On a MBP or a iMac, etc it will work flawlessly. On a 12" PB I dread to see what will happen. More than likely they will just disable all the eye-candy if your machine is not upto scratch.

Yes i just noticed that. How well do u think it will run ona new alu 2.0ghz imac?

[BKKbill]

Does it always have to come down to my mom can beat up your mom. Lets just take the high road.

Posted this way back at #246 seems some things will never change the posts just get longer and longer justifying the same position over and over. Now if MR would start a new thread on the front page we could all praise and/or complain about something new. ;)

[garethlewis2]

Yes i just noticed that. How well do u think it will run ona new alu 2.0ghz imac?

It will run fine. You have the 2400 which will cope with the GPU load. I'd just hate to see what this looks like on a MB with a 950 chipset.

[offwidafairies]

I've seen 7z (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7z) do ~200 MB to about 8 MB before.

So then how much space will Time Machine on an external drive? Will it be exponentially bigger than the original drive, or equal, or somehow compressed?? :confused: :o

[aafuss1]

Try carbon copy cloner. I used it as a Mac Consultant for Appalachian State University for cloning and reimaging builds. It is great for a complete copy of the system and it is free.

http://www.bombich.com/software/ccc.html

I use it to prepare for Leopard-it's fast and easy to use.

[ok13]

It will run fine. You have the 2400 which will cope with the GPU load. I'd just hate to see what this looks like on a MB with a 950 chipset.

actually leopard runs great on my mini

[slackpacker]

"Further back in the thread there was also mention of Konfabulator"



Take all these together, and imagine: Apple owns market share similar to MS has now. There is a small market for Linux users who feverishly work to try to get specs and information on hardware components, but they are constantly being dogged by Apple attorneys, and since they own 93&#37; of the market, they have a HUGE legal team and budget. You try to install a new OS in a partition on your mac? The next update will "brick" your computer.

Exaggeration? Yeah, I know, but there is truth, too.



Very much like Orwell's 1984 Hmmmm where have I heard about this before? Don't get me wrong I agree with what you are saying... but its Fantasy to the extreme. Equating what is going on with the iPhone to the Mac OS is not really a good path to tread on. AT&T is the really culprit here they are the company that wants to sell the service. And when none of the other services wanted to help Apple AT&T stepped up to the plate and made a deal. Apple changed the cellphone market in one day, they made it Better. Prople who own the iPhone are paying less money for services rendered.

As for Konfabulator.... The guys a millionaire now so its hard to feel sorry for him. Its because of Apple copying him that there was even interest in his App.

[ok13]

So then how much space will Time Machine on an external drive? Will it be exponentially bigger than the original drive, or equal, or somehow compressed?? :confused: :o

time machine only backups what you choose to backup, and it never backup a file twice, unless you want to backup the system & applications files (which is strange, unless you dont have the installation dvd)

[samh004]

Posted this way back at #246 seems some things will never change the posts just get longer and longer justifying the same position over and over. Now if MR would start a new thread on the front page we could all praise and/or complain about something new. ;)

I'm really hoping there's a new news story soon too... this is just ridiculous :p

[philgilder]

it never backup a file twice
it will backup any changes, so if you change say a pages file, and only change one letter and that whole file will get backed up again

it wont backup a file that hasnt changed, but it will make a link to an earlier backed up file so that a folder in TM will always show the full contents, not just the changes

[spydr]

Nice tour.

My only concern now that I am planning to get a new iMac is, I will also need to clutter the desk with a fast external drive, its connection and a power supply – spoiling quite a bit of the iMac's philosophy and elegance. I can see the next generation of iMacs and portables from Apple with two internal hard drives to obviate this – but I am not waiting for that.

[Evangelion]

Nice tour.

My only concern now that I am planning to get a new iMac is, I will also need to clutter the desk with a fast external drive, its connection and a power supply – spoiling quite a bit of the iMac's philosophy and elegance. I can see the next generation of iMacs and portables from Apple with two internal hard drives to obviate this – but I am not waiting for that.

You can always hook a drive to an Airport Extreme. That way it would be far from sight :).

That said, I would like Apple to integrate a ADSL-modem/route to AE. If I bought AE now, I wuld have to use it alongside my WiFi-equipped ADSL-router, and that would make no sense at all....

[kaiwai]

It means you can share a drive with a Windows PC that is NTFS formatted, or write to a NTFS formatted Boot Camp drive...

What on earth are you smoking - when an NTFS drive shared, it is shown as SMB - the file system issues are solved at the server end. You can already re-write to NTFS shared drives - I'm doing it right now!

[Digitalclips]

Can We Please Get A New Front Page Article??

Yeah, weekends suck don't they? ... no new news :)

[Brianstorm91]

Yeah, weekends suck don't they? ... no new news :)

That's exactly what I was thinking :eek:

9to5mac has a boring new one, though.

Somebody mock one up

"Apple updates all Mac lines, ultraportable introduced along with mid-size tower, two button mice and user replaceable HDDs"

:p

[Darkroom]

for those anxiously awaiting new front page stories, you should check out the forums secion. there is always new stuff in the macrumors forums section... some of these threads contain highly interesting topics and discussions... :)

[zweigand]

What on earth are you smoking - when an NTFS drive shared, it is shown as SMB - the file system issues are solved at the server end. You can already re-write to NTFS shared drives - I'm doing it right now!
He's talking about locally mounted drives. Not shared drives mounted over the network.

[Whiskerdreams]

it will backup any changes, so if you change say a pages file, and only change one letter that will get backed up

it wont backup a file that hasnt changed, but it will make a link to an earlier backed up file so that a folder in TM will always show the full contents, not just the changes

Actually Time Machine is currently file based. It would put a new version of the file on the backup not just the one letter. Hopefully as the ZFS file system gets integrated it will be able to do that instead of the whole file but for now it backs up the whole file.

You are correct about he links that it uses... Time Machine will always show a complete current set as well as being able to go back to a previous state. It does this by using what is called hard links in the HFS+ filesystem.

As another user suggested earlier NTFS would not work. The windows filesystems do not have a method of creating a hard link that I know of. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but I have only seen that on Unix based filesystems.

[zweigand]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but I have only seen that on Unix based filesystems.
I thought I saw in a post somewhere that if you are backing up to a drive that is not HFS+ formatted TM creates a sparse disk image and saves the files inside that. Although you would be out of luck on an NTFS drive (unless TM allows you to back up to AFP/SMB shares)

[goodmansvp]

If you want the map of London featured in the downloads stack its available at http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/cen_bus.pdf

[philgilder]

Actually Time Machine is currently file based. It would put a new version of the file on the backup not just the one letter.

i meant that :)

i re-read it, and i see where the confusion comes from
sorry!

[AidenShaw]

As The windows filesystems do not have a method of creating a hard link that I know of. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but I have only seen that on Unix based filesystems.

Happy to correct you...

http://www.flexhex.com/docs/articles/hard-links.phtml

Creating a hard link is simple - just call the Win32 API function CreateHardLink (this function is available in Windows 2000 and later systems).

BOOL CreateHardLink(LPCTSTR lpFileName, // Link path
LPCTSTR lpExistingFileName,
LPSECURITY_ATTRIBUTES lpSecurityAttributes);


http://www.microsoft.com/resources/documentation/windows/xp/all/proddocs/en-us/fsutil_hardlink.mspx?mfr=true

Syntax
fsutil hardlink create NewFilename ExistingFilename

Parameters
create : Establishes an NTFS hard link between an existing file and a new file. An NTFS hard link is similar to a POSIX hard link.

NewFilename : Specifies the file to which you want to create a hardlink.

ExistingFilename : Specifies the file from which you want to create a hardlink.

[jcrowe]

What Apple needs are customers who demand that they do a better job, not users who cream their pants when they release a new set of printer-drivers.



OS X IS better than Windows, overall. I'm not trying to claim otherwise. What I AM disputing is your delusional idea that OS X is better than everything else in every single area, all the time, by a wide margin. It's not, deal with it.



You sound like a Monty Python-sketch: "All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"


Life of Brian.....that scene and the one where John Cleese as a Roman soldier
catches Brian doing graffiti are priceless. Thanks for the memory.



So you already removed two arguments that support Windows and then claim "there's NOTHING to defend Windows!". Well, there are: Games and custom-apps. And besides those: hardware-support (if Apple does not offer hardware that is suitable for you, then you are screwed. That can't really happen with Windows), software-support. And those two are pretty major things Windows has going for it.


That's a limitation for Apple but a huge headache for Microsoft because the task of supporting all that hardware is both a functional and security nightmare. In the end, Microsoft and the hardware vendors end up doing a pretty poor job so it looks bad. I have had a number of really rancid compatability issues on games under Windows. OTOH, at least those games were available for Windows. In the long run, though, games are sort of a losing proposition on PCs anyway IMO. If you want the real deal, head for a gaming platform.



Um, the customer has to adapt quite a bit to OS X and Apple in order to use their products. Don't like the menubar at the top of the screen? Tough, adapt! Don't like the Dock? Tough, adapt! Want to use iPhone on other carrier than AT&T? Tough, adapt! Want to use your own ringtones in your iPhone without Apple constantly trying to screw you over? Tough, adapt! Want to use OS X on non-Apple hardware? Tough, adapt!

Seriously: One of the things Apple is notorious for is the tight control they keep their system under. And now you are seriously claiming the opposite? Unbelievable!



I suspect that Apple keeps that tight control because they have seen the problems that Windows has supporting all of the combinations of hardware it must support. It's a different approach in which Apple can control another independent variable, thus making Apple's job a lot easier. Microsoft does not do hardware, at least for PCs, and this creates a lot of effort for them. I think that is the primary reason why Windows versions are so difficult for Microsoft to produce. It's not like there are not really smart and motivated folks working for Microsoft. Really, the sheer size of the company probably makes it difficult as well.

Besides: I DO see the appeal of OS X: I use it every day at home. It's my OS of choice. I think it's the best OS available at the moment. But none of that means that I have to think that it's better than everything else on every possible metric, all the time, like you seem to think. We CAN like Macs and OS X without having to cream our pants.

Well, that's one way to put it. To drag this back to relevance to the guided tour, I'm quite glad that was done as it fleshed out some of the high level details on some features appearing in Leopard. The virtual desktops, while hardly original, will definitely be a big win for me. Of course the biggie, Time Machine, can lead even naive users to adopt a backup strategy because it's so easy. What is appealing to me is not whether these features are original....they are not, but rather that in this context they become easy enough to use so that anybody could benefit. One need not know what happens under the covers with Time Machine to get the value. One need not know that virtual desktops was available on the Amiga almost 20 years ago to get that the addition to MacOS X is a good thing...and that Apple's implementation is actually pretty nice. The iChat features are pretty awesome too, and add the Apple flair to pioneering stuff like CUSeeMe of days long gone. Of course, the business uses of iChat will probably pale in comparison to social uses, but what the heck. Now, the other side of the coin is that Leopard will only be compelling enough for me on my MacBook Pro. The G5 iMac will stay on Tiger. Now, back to your regularly scheduled verbal swordplay.

[Evangelion]

That's a limitation for Apple but a huge headache for Microsoft because the task of supporting all that hardware is both a functional and security nightmare.

Well, not really. Linux absolutely dwarfs Windows when it comes to hardware-support, and it has none of the security-problems that plague Windows. Not only does Linux support more hardware, it does that while spanning several architectures.

I suspect that Apple keeps that tight control because they have seen the problems that Windows has supporting all of the combinations of hardware it must support.

Nope. Apple has kept a tight control over their system starting from the original Mac. And at that time Windows wasn't even a glimmer in Bill Gates's eyes, and Microsoft was nowhere near the behemoth it is today. Control has been built right in to the genes of the Mac. Had Steve Jobs had his way, Macs would be hermetically sealed boxes.

That said, I'm not saying that that control is a bad thing as such. It has its drawbacks and its benefits. What I AM disputing is the idea that user can adapts Macs and OS X in to his needs. That's one of the drawbacks of the tight control Apple exerts over the system: it's not very adaptable. The user needs to adapt instead. You need to make do with what Apple provides you with. If those offerings are not suitable, you do not have much room to maneuver. Want a system that sits between Mac Pro (an expensive hi-end workstation) and iMac (inexpandable all-in-one consumer computer)? Apple has decided that they will not offer such a machine, so you just need to adapt to that. And that's just one example.

[desertsun]

Looking to buy first Mac. Would it be better to buy with Leopard as original OS (w/o Tiger) or does it matter ? Don't need to buy first day (or week)

I do need Boot Camp to run a few XP only programs.

Thanks for any input

[philgilder]

Looking to buy first Mac. Would it be better to buy with Leopard as original OS (w/o Tiger) or does it matter ? Don't need to buy first day (or week)

I do need Boot Camp to run a few XP only programs.

Thanks for any input

get leopard

boot camp on tiger will stop working for new installs of windows from friday...

[nvbrit]

get leopard

boot camp on tiger will stop working for new installs of windows from friday...

also if you don't have BootCamp already you'll have to get Leopard, coz Apple has taken the BootCamp Beta off their website now. Althought their may be other places you could get it, officially you can't download it anymore

[Slip]

Yeah, weekends suck don't they? ... no new news :)

for those anxiously awaiting new front page stories, you should check out the forums secion. there is always new stuff in the macrumors forums section... some of these threads contain highly interesting topics and discussions... :)

Im on the exact same thought process ;)

[coolant113]

man do i hope that leopard is at fast as this tour machine seems to be:apple::apple:

[Quillz]

man do i hope that leopard is at fast as this tour machine seems to be:apple::apple:
Of course it's not, like most product demos, it was staged. Or at best, they are using extremely fast gigabit ethernet. Do you honestly think that you with iChat Theatre, Keynote presentations will just appear instantly on the other person's screen? Of course not, there will be lag.

[dissdnt]

wrong thread :P

[sonpolker]

Nice. I'm still holding off till it gets "tested" for a couple of months in the wild. Thanks in advance people.