macs and gender/sexual preference

[jefhatfield]

the original imac has been called a girly computer or a gay computer

the original ibook has been called un-masculine and likened to a makeup case

resse whiterspoon, who played a carefree, california ditzy blond in "legally blond" sported a tangerine ibook in a sea of black wintels in her serious harvard law class

are we being typecasted as feminine? and is that a good or bad thing?

what do you think?

jef
proud blue collar owner of a blueberry ibook

[eyelikeart]

to me...Macs are about having a bit of style...and not giving into to what everyone else is doing...about being "different"...we show that we like to be different and think different than everyone else...which is why, to me, many Mac users have more free spirited attitudes...generally speaking...

well that and having a more efficient workstation... ;)

but anyway...I don't think they are girly by any stretch...I have often wondered if the opposition has ever viewed the Apple logo (esp. the older "rainbow" logo) as being something of a homosexual nature?

I hope that does not offend anyone...

ps: almost forgot...proudly toting a TiBook...he he he :p

[jefhatfield]

since i finished college nearly a decade ago, i had two careers...medical field and techie work

if the gay men and women of the local hospital where i live were to be kicked out because of their sexual preference, we would lose at least half the nurses, our only cancer doctor, and our two military dentists who service the military bases in the area (one dentist, a colonel, was forced into early retirement since he also had a part time job as a drag queen and because of that, he did not make brigadier general that year) but he was a great dentist and he should have become a general but this was way before don't ask don't tell

if the openly gay men i have seen in the graphic design departments of two of my major clients left (one in silicon valley and one just south or the valley), the department would almost disappear overnight

[jefhatfield]

btw - that gay cancer doctor saved my mom's life because she had a baseball sized malignant cancer growth in her breast

where i live, there is only one experienced oncologist...problems of living in an extremely rural area

our county is the size of a middle sized east coast state and we have maybe just over 100,000 people

he he...people i went to high school with still marry their first cousins and think nothing of it and the local rednecks (my nyc wife calls me a japanese-american redneck) get together and have wild parties, which i don't attend, cut down women and homosexuals, and give each other oral "favors" after a 12 pack pf coors each (true story right out of pulp fiction) and they attest to their macho beliefs

at the end of one of those parties, the wives have to go clean up the spilled beer, vomit, and that sticky white fluid which is all over the place

i hope i didn;t offend anybody, but this is the truth

fo figure:p

[sparkleytone]

i guess my question would be, why does any of this matter? if someone doesn't like a notebook because it makes them question their sexuality, then that's a personal issue with themself. sexuality is not something i believe people should be categorized by. if you don't like the way it looks, don't buy it. if people want to think we are "gay" for owning stylish computers, that is just fine with me, as it is really none of their business anyways. so please excuse me, i'll be over here being "gay" with my iBook while you reboot your ugly windoze notebook.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by sparkleytone
i guess my question would be, why does any of this matter? if someone doesn't like a notebook because it makes them question their sexuality, then that's a personal issue with themself. sexuality is not something i believe people should be categorized by. if you don't like the way it looks, don't buy it. if people want to think we are "gay" for owning stylish computers, that is just fine with me, as it is really none of their business anyways. so please excuse me, i'll be over here being "gay" with my iBook while you reboot your ugly windoze notebook.


but rebooting, freezing, and crashing is so macho:p

[blackpeter]

As someone who's only been a Mac owner for a little over a year (G4 533) I have to say that I took to poo-pooing the Apple colour scheme in my WinTel days. Granted, my own box was a drab, grey block. But as pretty as the iMacs looked at school (the entire college was outfitted with purple iMacs - our school colours) I couldn't bring myself to buy one.

I loved the lines, the all-in-one design, and the Mac desktop reminded me of my grade school days. But I couldn't understand why Apple didn't offer a more "neutral" colour (see: SE & Snow iMacs). The colours didn't necessarily seem femmenine or gay to me - just frivolous. It's not like I'm only satisfied with black or white, but don't give me colours that seem to belong more on South Beach Miami that on my desk.

The G4 and the Ti and even the iPod are perfect examples of machines that are sexy yet sexless. Like a fine automobile, these machines have fluid lines, glossy finishes, and a "come-and-touch-me" design that's quietly incorperated into each one. They don't have to use loud colours to attract.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by tfaz1
As someone who's only been a Mac owner for a little over a year (G4 533) I have to say that I took to poo-pooing the Apple colour scheme in my WinTel days. Granted, my own box was a drab, grey block. But as pretty as the iMacs looked at school (the entire college was outfitted with purple iMacs - our school colours) I couldn't bring myself to buy one.

I loved the lines, the all-in-one design, and the Mac desktop reminded me of my grade school days. But I couldn't understand why Apple didn't offer a more "neutral" colour (see: SE & Snow iMacs). The colours didn't necessarily seem femmenine or gay to me - just frivolous. It's not like I'm only satisfied with black or white, but don't give me colours that seem to belong more on South Beach Miami that on my desk.

The G4 and the Ti and even the iPod are perfect examples of machines that are sexy yet sexless. Like a fine automobile, these machines have fluid lines, glossy finishes, and a "come-and-touch-me" design that's quietly incorperated into each one. They don't have to use loud colours to attract.

after the redneck construction workers had too much to drink, it also became "come and touch me"

oh, that is so bad...re: rural drunken parties i mentioned above

[eyelikeart]

I agree...I think the TiBook is a beautiful computer system...sort of like an Italian sports car...smooth finish...lines well thought out...incredible performance...and a hefty price tag!

uh oh...I've brought up the whole car comparrison again!! :eek:

but aside from this...I honestly don't feel it gives a bit of weakness to one's sexuality to be a Mac lover...it shows that u don't have to get what the Jones' nextdoor have...the ability to think more for oneself...

[blackpeter]

jef - I have three letters for you: T.M.I. (too much information) :eek:

[Rower_CPU]

I think the whole rainbow logo became taboo once the Gay Pride movement started using it as thei symbol. Besides the white logos go better with the current hardware (imagine a rainbow logo on the TiBook...blech).

I think the Mac platform lends itself to a more open expression of ideas and feelings. This freedom allows people to be comfortable expressing themselves...whether that means their sexual preferences or their views on how and when Bill Gates should die, that freedom is there.

I think the current Macs go beyond gender stereotypes...clean, simple lines and colors...androgynous even! :eek:

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by eyelikeart
I agree...I think the TiBook is a beautiful computer system...sort of like an Italian sports car...smooth finish...lines well thought out...incredible performance...and a hefty price tag!

uh oh...I've brought up the whole car comparrison again!! :eek:



good comparison though.

i too think the way you fo about this.

[3rdpath]

i'm not sure which mac i prefer to have sex with.

my imac is cuddly but my tower has more drives and vibrates more...

[Mr. Anderson]

The TiPB is just plain sexy, to men and women. You can't help but look at it and think its cool and a slick piece of tech. I'm always getting comments about the TiPB when someone sees it for the first time.

[iGav]

But could you imagine the Rainbow Apple logo on the Flower Power iMac...:eek:

Truely shocking.......

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by iGAV
But could you imagine the Rainbow Apple logo on the Flower Power iMac...:eek:

Truely shocking.......

But its probably been done. Not that there's anything wrong with that

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
I think the whole rainbow logo became taboo once the Gay Pride movement started using it as thei symbol. Besides the white logos go better with the current hardware (imagine a rainbow logo on the TiBook...blech).

I think the Mac platform lends itself to a more open expression of ideas and feelings. This freedom allows people to be comfortable expressing themselves...whether that means their sexual preferences or their views on how and when Bill Gates should die, that freedom is there.

I think the current Macs go beyond gender stereotypes...clean, simple lines and colors...androgynous even! :eek:

First off, the Rainbow Flag was invented before Apple went to the rainbow, that I do know. I've always wondered just the tiniest bit if there was a connection, but all 3 founders are married, some of them many times over... I've got a history of Apple somewhere that says why they went to the 6-color logo, it's something rather boring I think...

Second, I'm all about knocking out gender roles, because I think human beings are starting to fight them. When I was a little boy, I was happier cross-stitching than playing football (God that makes me a fag lol)... I think it's nice Apple has made their products rather androgynous, I had always thought the original orange iBook a little faye, but our HS's most anti-gay macho guy got one and showed it off constantly. So I guess it's in the eye of the beholder.

Third, I'd like to thank everyone in this thread for being mature about this subject, in fact everyone on this site is very tolerant. It's nice I can mention little gay jokes or my partner without getting flamed off the face of the earth--
And yes I know too much talk about the subject can get annoying fast, but if there's no talk, if no one opens dialogues such as this one, gay people would still be closeted everywhere, have no rights... Eventually it'll simply be another part of life, but until then, I have a job to do :) (i'm an activist)

:)
pnw

[Rower_CPU]

Are you kidding? I don't think even Steve Jobs when he was tripping on acid would have OKed an aesthetically revolting color scheme as Flower Power + Rainbow Logo...it would be like a Jackson Pollock painting using only pastel neon colors with a brief interruption of brilliant primary and secondary colors...yech!!! :p

[iGav]

But its probably been done. Not that there's anything wrong with that

Agreed.... but imagine what the rest of their house would be decorated like.:eek:

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by paulwhannel


First off, the Rainbow Flag was invented before Apple went to the rainbow, that I do know. I've always wondered just the tiniest bit if there was a connection, but all 3 founders are married, some of them many times over... I've got a history of Apple somewhere that says why they went to the 6-color logo, it's something rather boring I think...

Thanks for the info...when exactly did the Rainbow Flag come into existence/use as a GP symbol? I guess I never really saw much of it until '95 or so, so I assumed the Apple logo came first...

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
he he...people i went to high school with still marry their first cousins and think nothing of it and the local rednecks (my nyc wife calls me a japanese-american redneck) get together and have wild parties, which i don't attend, cut down women and homosexuals, and give each other oral "favors" after a 12 pack pf coors each (true story right out of pulp fiction) and they attest to their macho beliefs

at the end of one of those parties, the wives have to go clean up the spilled beer, vomit, and that sticky white fluid which is all over the place

*laughs*
I have pictures...

hehe sorry :)
pnw

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU


Thanks for the info...when exactly did the Rainbow Flag come into existence/use as a GP symbol? I guess I never really saw much of it until '95 or so, so I assumed the Apple logo came first...

If memory serves me, it was invented for a rally in '78. But it didn't get recognized as an "official flag" until the late '80's, and took on widespread use in the early '90's. The meaning is rather obvious, that it represents a broad spectrum of peoples, technically each color has a representation and a meaning... But that's another story :)

pnw

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by tfaz1
jef - I have three letters for you: T.M.I. (too much information) :eek:



:D

[Rower_CPU]

In case you were wondering what this monstrosity would look like:


Truly frightening...<shudder>

[iGav]

I quite like it..... it would go great with my pink shagpile......:p

Actually....Rower this is really your machine isn't it...??? no one is that good in Photoshop..... :p

[Gelfin]

jef> Offended? No. Nauseated? Slightly. ;) I grew up in some serious redneck country myself but I never encountered anything like that.

See, we have this problem in America. We have this totally bizarre standard of manhood that is really nearly unprecedented in history. If questioned, people will assume that it goes back to the rugged frontier cowboy days where life was harsh and men were men and so forth. But it didn't. This image of men harkens less to cowboy days than it does to cowboy movies. Really, it goes back to the first part of the 20th century, when we had a couple of really nasty wars, saw Communists everywhere, weathered the Great Depression, and in the process developed this sensibility that men should be largely unrefined. Conscientious men almost universally had more important things to do than attend to such fluffy things as aesthetics and how they felt about things, and men who didn't eschew these supposedly frivolous notions were viewed with suspicion.

I think the stereotype of the foppish, flamboyant homosexual male (and for that matter, the butch lesbian) come not from some any direct link between those two desires, but from a convergence. Gay people are already violating some far more serious taboos, so there's really no reason for them to bother with molding themselves to nonsensically restrictive gender roles otherwise.

Even though the conditions which led to these attitudes are long gone, the attitudes themselves have propagated on into the present day because fear of social rejection keeps people in line. When social rejection is a given (as it is among gay people as well as certain other groups), one is liberated to do pretty much as one pleases.

Regardless, this is why something that is designed to be attractive instead of, or in addition to, being starkly functional just automatically sends up the "gay" flag in many Americans' brains, or how, say, sensible shoes on a woman automatically mean "lesbian" to some people.

Personally I think the whole thing is stupid and I wish it would just stop, but then I wish the Israelis and Palestinians would stop their bickering too, and you see how much good my wishes are.

[3rdpath]

that is one bad acid flashback:)

[eyelikeart]

just what kind of people were u hanging around?! ;)

[agreenster]

Dont forget guys, Apple was one of the first to use the translucent, multi-color scheme with their products that caught on so well in the late-mid nineties. (I use 'one of the first' because I think someone else came up with it, but Apple made it popular)

Anyway, I despise the look of the older iMacs, and think the colors are hideous---in hindsight. However, Apple was just being their revolutionary selves, and when they released their first iMac, it was the most beautiful, fresh, new thing for home computers, who had been grey for far too long.

Now, of course, the new Apple look has a much more appealing, sexy/professional look which is taken far more seriously. I love my TiBook, and when other people see it, they still gaze in awe over how thin, and professional it looks. Im sure other people certainly thought the old iBooks were feminine, but the current one's are not only uni-sex, but sexy as well.

To give an example, the TiBook is used in countless television shows like UC:Undercover, CSI, etc, which are not fluffy, tangerine-friendly shows. Their computers are supposed to be above the technology of the day. I cant even count how many commercials I have seen the TiBook on, yet none of them are for Valley Girls, or teenie boppers.

I think Apple has hit a home run with their new style, and I only hope it gets nothing but better from here.

[Ifeelbloated]

Man, you should see what my graphic arts teachers were like. The head of the department was a good guy but pretty effeminate. The other teacher was nice but she was kind of a whack-nut.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Gelfin
jef> Offended? No. Nauseated? Slightly. ;) I grew up in some serious redneck country myself but I never encountered anything like that.

See, we have this problem in America. We have this totally bizarre standard of manhood that is really nearly unprecedented in history. If questioned, people will assume that it goes back to the rugged frontier cowboy days where life was harsh and men were men and so forth. But it didn't. This image of men harkens less to cowboy days than it does to cowboy movies. Really, it goes back to the first part of the 20th century, when we had a couple of really nasty wars, saw Communists everywhere, weathered the Great Depression, and in the process developed this sensibility that men should be largely unrefined. Conscientious men almost universally had more important things to do than attend to such fluffy things as aesthetics and how they felt about things, and men who didn't eschew these supposedly frivolous notions were viewed with suspicion.

I think the stereotype of the foppish, flamboyant homosexual male (and for that matter, the butch lesbian) come not from some any direct link between those two desires, but from a convergence. Gay people are already violating some far more serious taboos, so there's really no reason for them to bother with molding themselves to nonsensically restrictive gender roles otherwise.

Even though the conditions which led to these attitudes are long gone, the attitudes themselves have propagated on into the present day because fear of social rejection keeps people in line. When social rejection is a given (as it is among gay people as well as certain other groups), one is liberated to do pretty much as one pleases.

Regardless, this is why something that is designed to be attractive instead of, or in addition to, being starkly functional just automatically sends up the "gay" flag in many Americans' brains, or how, say, sensible shoes on a woman automatically mean "lesbian" to some people.

Personally I think the whole thing is stupid and I wish it would just stop, but then I wish the Israelis and Palestinians would stop their bickering too, and you see how much good my wishes are.

this statement is going to get me flamed both ways, especially since i am very religious

no one is born gay...we are all born bi-sexual with tendencies one way or the other or right in between...this is not a hunch but one of the most accepted theories in western medicine and psychology

i know some people think they are 100 percent straight...no such animal

i know some people think they didn't choose a gay lifestyle...life is full of choices and there are many gay and straight people of both sexes that choose a life of celibacy

this is both a western and eastern philosophy that goes back before recorded history whether is it waitng for the right man or holding in the chi/ki energy for physical exertion or mental exertion the next day

many olympians will refrain from sexual contact for a few days before an event knowing it may increse their physical or mental agility

one of the most promiscous times in college football is when a visiting top ten national team goes to hawaii with all those beautifully tan girls and more times than is necessary, a top 10 national team gets beat by a lowly ranked hawaiin football team

[agreenster]

Saying that homosexuality is genetic is like saying:

The ability to draw is genetic
Liking brunettes is genetic
Being a great chess player is genetic
Being a great basketball player is genetic
Being a murderer is genetic
Liking Apple computer is genetic

Point is, some people are born with strong bodies, and some people are born with strong minds. (And more times than not, most people are born with neither.) But people are presented with choices in life, and depending on their past, their childhood, and preferences that they DEVELOP along the way, they will choose to be straight or gay.

And dont argue that children of alcoholics/child abusers/cleptomaniacs/drug abusers end up like their parents because of genetics. It has a LOT more to do with learned behavior.

But Hatfield is right. No one is 'born' gay. You do have a choice.

[jefhatfield]

and that is simply psych 101 from high school

but if a gay gene is isolated, then i stand corrected

or if an artist gene is found, then i will be wrong but surprised to say the least

to say everything is 50 percent nature and 50 percent nurture is baloney

it is mostly nurture

genetics determine things like hair color, cholesterol tendencies, wieght tendencies, alcoholism tendencies, height (mostly), and a whole lot of other things

if there was a gay gene, then how does that explain people who went one way then another...are they confused? i don't think so

people choose different lifestyles but it is not our place to condemn them

i use a mac, vote democratic, like the 49ers, suck at baseball but like watching it, am very religious, would go back to the war in belfast as a missionary in a hearbeat, like to go to school forever, enjoy the wwf if the rock is there, like independent foreign movies, like engineering journals, etc and that makes me different from anybody here and most of those things that make me me is by choice

at most, i think, as a guess, that genetics is 45 percent and enviromnment is 55 percent, but i may be way wrong and when we really find the answer to the genetic question, it will probably be centuries from now since we are only just starting to usderstand these things

[Rower_CPU]

You caught me...:eek:

I'm a closet Flower Power owner...but this is my "Coming Out" party...

...sigh...

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
You caught me...:eek:

I'm a closet Flower Power owner...but this is my "Coming Out" party...

...sigh...

like the instructor told me in tech school, it's what is under the hood

i would like for once, as an experiment, to take the guts out of a dual 1 ghz g4 and stick it into an old 486 tower and show it to my ignorant pc friends and tell them it was all in the ddr ram upgrade from radio shack for $19.99 :p

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by jefhatfield


like the instructor told me in tech school, it's what is under the hood

i would like for once, as an experiment, to take the guts out of a dual 1 ghz g4 and stick it into an old 486 tower and show it to my ignorant pc friends and tell them it was all in the ddr ram upgrade from radio shack for $19.99 :p

Oh my...that would be priceless...justifiable revenge for the people who strip the Mac parts out of G3/G4 towers and put their Wintel boxes in...shameless...

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU


Oh my...that would be priceless...justifiable revenge for the people who strip the Mac parts out of G3/G4 towers and put their Wintel boxes in...shameless...

the only problem is that i can't afford such a prank

i heard of one person turning their original 80's mac into an aquarium...seriously, using epoxy and stuff

now i can afford that since old macs go for fifty bucks in the paper sometimes...heck, the fish cost more:p

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by agreenster
But Hatfield is right. No one is 'born' gay. You do have a choice.

Absolutely incorrect. See: research done on the inner ear structure of lesbians. Brain patterns are different. Thankfully, there's no rush to find the "gay gene" because even though that would be proof, it would lead to "selective birthing" (abort the queers). While I do believe the genetic predisposition can be influenced by upbringing, I think there is a basic orientation at birth. Saying that people have a choice is irresponsible, because that's what has lead countless people and groups against homosexuals. Even through years of subversion during the formitive stages, if there was any sort of choice, there wouldn't be nearly as many gay people. I went through years of denial and tried to make myself straight, and it certainly didn't accomplish anything but self-hated. Look at aversion therapy, the kind that's supposed to make us "deviants" normal... The only ones it works for, about 1% of those who endure it, develop severe emotional and mental problems later in life, and many wind up choosing suicide.

Do some research into families with lots of gay people in them. You'll see patterns. Not many people in my maternal family were gay, until my great-grandfather came into the mix, then he had two gay children, that generation had one or two, and now my generation is flooded with them. There's obvious trends as people add their genetic makeup to a family tree, whether it be less or more gay people in any given generation. And before you get going with how accepting a family is, it holds through with adopted people, a lot of research has been done on how male twins develop when seperated - More than 50% of the time, when one twin is gay, the other will be as well.

Please don't look at this as flaming, but understand the facts before you share such an opinion. If you think there's a choice involved, try being gay for a month, a week, or even a day. I know literally hundreds of gay people that would be straight, if there was any possible way to do it. No one wants this, trust me... The nature vs. nurture arguement is an old one, but even if you believe nurture, it cannot be considered a choice...

:)
pnw

And don't even dare say alcoholism isn't genetic, because on THIS issue there is scientific proof... I can count back 5 generations of alcoholics easily, the only reason I escaped it is I have an allergy to alcohol... it's another of those things that's been studied extensively through adoption, as well as medically...

[Rower_CPU]

I've actually heard some interesting theories lately that scientists are moving towards the hypothesis that it's actually Nature AND Nurture working in harmony to create the end result of presonality/sexual preference/etc.

I mean you can look at the studies of identical twins who when raised separately developed starkly contrasting personalities...or those who turned out exactly the same...

I don't think genetics and upbringing are mutually exclusive, but rather working in concert with each other.


Interesting examples pnw...do you think that possibly the precedent of your great-grandfather paved the way for other people in your family to be more open to "alternative" lifestyles...in addition to some possible genetic influences?

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by Gelfin
Even though the conditions which led to these attitudes are long gone, the attitudes themselves have propagated on into the present day because fear of social rejection keeps people in line. When social rejection is a given (as it is among gay people as well as certain other groups), one is liberated to do pretty much as one pleases.

I totally agree with your entire post, and in the above paragraph you've summed up my theory on why so many gay people are such horrendous sluts. Throw out a couple of the more antequated morals (homophobia), and the rest (monogamy and marriage) go with 'em...

Now i'll get flamed by the gay people :) lol... I'm not saying all gay people are sluts, mind you, or that straight people aren't just as bad sometimes, but straight people are expected to find a mate and marry, the "american dream" thing, while many gay people go their entire lives with the whole college-orgy-party attitude... *sigh* i try and challenge my gay brothers to take responsibility for themselves and i'm called self-hating...

okay i should really let this thread rest, 'cause this is macrumors, not discuss-the-merits-and-demerits-of-alternative-lifestyles.com hehe sorry bout that...
:)
pnw

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by paulwhannel


Absolutely incorrect. See: research done on the inner ear structure of lesbians. Brain patterns are different. Thankfully, there's no rush to find the "gay gene" because even though that would be proof, it would lead to "selective birthing" (abort the queers). While I do believe the genetic predisposition can be influenced by upbringing, I think there is a basic orientation at birth. Saying that people have a choice is irresponsible, because that's what has lead countless people and groups against homosexuals. Even through years of subversion during the formitive stages, if there was any sort of choice, there wouldn't be nearly as many gay people. I went through years of denial and tried to make myself straight, and it certainly didn't accomplish anything but self-hated. Look at aversion therapy, the kind that's supposed to make us "deviants" normal... The only ones it works for, about 1% of those who endure it, develop severe emotional and mental problems later in life, and many wind up choosing suicide.

Do some research into families with lots of gay people in them. You'll see patterns. Not many people in my maternal family were gay, until my great-grandfather came into the mix, then he had two gay children, that generation had one or two, and now my generation is flooded with them. There's obvious trends as people add their genetic makeup to a family tree, whether it be less or more gay people in any given generation. And before you get going with how accepting a family is, it holds through with adopted people, a lot of research has been done on how male twins develop when seperated - More than 50% of the time, when one twin is gay, the other will be as well.

Please don't look at this as flaming, but understand the facts before you share such an opinion. If you think there's a choice involved, try being gay for a month, a week, or even a day. I know literally hundreds of gay people that would be straight, if there was any possible way to do it. No one wants this, trust me... The nature vs. nurture arguement is an old one, but even if you believe nurture, it cannot be considered a choice...

:)
pnw


actually, what i stated was that all people are born bi-sexual with tendencies one way or the other and some people are right in the middle

what i said and what you say are not in disagreement at all

as the theory goes, it is a spectrum where no one is 100 percent anything...gay or straight

a true 50-50 bi-sexual could find it easiest in theory going one way of the other, but a person with a straight tendency would find it quite hard, but not impossible, to lead a gay lifestyle

and a gay tendency person would find it quite hard, but not impossible, to lead a straight lifestyle

i admit i only have the classes from high school and college, but at least i was an hr major so i have a little more psych classes than the average non-psych major...but i would still not compare myself to one who studied pure psych in college imho

if you look closely, i don't see a conflict with your statement and my statement co-existing...i am only quoting the most accepted bi-sexual spectrum theory...and i challenge you to find any physician who disagrees with it with a consensus behind him/her

and i am not homophobic, i volunteer for the AIDS project in my local domain and me and my wife went to a drag queen charity contest last month...i am only stating well accepted psychological theory and not talking out of my butt...like i usually do on macrumors:D

(and yeah, i am a competent techie, but prone to being sentimental with my macs from time to time)

[eyelikeart]

jef...excellent views on how people are born and such...I think u hit on something there...

rowercpu...nature vs. nurture....I think I read a recent article on this?!

anyway...my question to u guys is this...

why is it that men who have a sense of fashion and are artistic often stereotyped as being gay?

have fun with this one! :p

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Interesting examples pnw...do you think that possibly the precedent of your great-grandfather paved the way for other people in your family to be more open to "alternative" lifestyles...in addition to some possible genetic influences?

That's where it's interesting, he introduced bigotry and his own brand of racism into the mix. So the family was actually more likely to be accepting before he came along...

To some extent I do believe in the same theory that you do, about nature and nurture, altho I think nurture has a smaller role than many think... I have to automatically reject the theory, at least when I am in the public eye at all, because I'm afraid those less intelligent than you or I would assume that means "if you beat heterosexuality into your kids, you won't have any damn faries running around"...

What i mean to say is, nurture may play a part, but it's not something to be tampered with :)

thx rower for interesting discussion :)

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by jefhatfield



actually, what i stated was that all people are born bi-sexual with tendencies one way or the other and some people are right in the middle

what i said and what you say are not in disagreement at all

as the theory goes, it is a spectrum where no one is 100 percent anything...gay or straight

a true 50-50 bi-sexual could find it easiest in theory going one way of the other, but a person with a straight tendency would find it quite hard, but not impossible, to lead a gay lifestyle

and a gay tendency person would find it quite hard, but not impossible, to lead a straight lifestyle

i admit i only have the classes from high school and college, but at least i was an hr major so i have a little more psych classes than the average non-psych major...but i would still not compare myself to one who studied pure psych in college imho

if you look closely, i don't see a conflict with your statement and my statement co-existing...i am only quoting the most accepted bi-sexual spectrum theory...and i challenge you to find any physician who disagrees with it with a consensus behind him/her

and i am not homophobic, i volunteer for the AIDS project in my local domain and me and my wife went to a drag queen charity contest last month...i am only stating well accepted psychological theory and not talking out of my butt...like i usually do on macrumors:D

(and yeah, i am a competent techie, but prone to being sentimental with my macs from time to time)

I do apologize, I never meant to infer homophobia, just that this theory can be more condusive to it when used in mainstream society. Don't want to repeat myself from my above post, which explains what I mean more, but in a lot of ways I need to push the genetic only theory, as it's less confusing and more extreme, thus "pushing the envelope" :)

Plus I get so defensive on this subject, it's instinct anymore, that I overlook what's really being said... this is a fault of mine that could almost be compared to the predjudice that I try to fight everyday :)

*group hug* hehe
:)
pnw

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by paulwhannel


That's where it's interesting, he introduced bigotry and his own brand of racism into the mix. So the family was actually more likely to be accepting before he came along...

To some extent I do believe in the same theory that you do, about nature and nurture, altho I think nurture has a smaller role than many think... I have to automatically reject the theory, at least when I am in the public eye at all, because I'm afraid those less intelligent than you or I would assume that means "if you beat heterosexuality into your kids, you won't have any damn faries running around"...

What i mean to say is, nurture may play a part, but it's not something to be tampered with :)

thx rower for interesting discussion :)

one can't beat away the tendency one is born with, and that should never be done

actually, kids should never be beat because they will most likely beat their own kids...numerous studies show this

and beating kids is not a gene, it is a learned behaviour, and more importantly, just plain cruelty

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by paulwhannel
"if you beat heterosexuality into your kids, you won't have any damn faries running around"...

It's sad that exactly this takes place so often...from what I've seen it can have exactly the opposite effect...I guess that's justice!

[mischief]

I've noticed that the most oppressively anti-Gay men are just fighting the need to touch one another........90% of those I've met came out soon after the peak of their paranoia.

I've also noticed a link between oppressive/unstable parents and homosexuality. In that context I much prefer a happy Gay to an unhappy Psychotic. :D

I definitely resonate with the Bi-core thing........it's just that Women are so fascinatingly........soft:D

I married a marvelously voluptuous blonde with slight bi tendencies.........we have some fun laughs with those who are pouty around not being sure which way to go.;) I figure if you're not causing anybody any harm, who cares?

[jefhatfield]

what i think most of us are getting at here is the need to understand the human animal...we are far from from concrete theories

however, bigotry against gay people, in any way, shape, or form should never be tolerated anywhere in this world

...whether that person thinks they chose their lifestyle or thinks they were born that way

i had bigotry thrown against me for being born asian

and i had bigotry thrown at my choice for being a liberal in the obviously conservative institution of mba school

bigotry is wrong. period.

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by mischief
I've noticed that the most oppressively anti-Gay men are just fighting the need to touch one another........90% of those I've met came out soon after the peak of their paranoia.

I've also noticed a link between oppressive/unstable parents and homosexuality. In that context I much prefer a happy Gay to an unhappy Psychotic. :D

I definitely resonate with the Bi-core thing........it's just that Women are so fascinatingly........soft:D

I married a marvelously voluptuous blonde with slight bi tendencies.........we have some fun laughs with those who are pouty around not being sure which way to go.;) I figure if you're not causing anybody any harm, who cares?

I'm just waiting for this bible-beating Fred Phelps (www.godhatesfags.com) to come out... I feel so bad, there has to be a couple gay people in his familycult, those poor people thinking God condemns them for what they can't help...

if women are soft, does that make men... hard? hehehe... I could say that's why I like 'em ;)
TMI again, perhaps :)

pnw

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
bigotry is wrong. period.

Hear, hear.

It's funny/sad how this is a recurring theme throughout human history (recorded history, anyways). You can go back from BCE times when the Egyptians enslaved the Jews, to the Crusades, to Hitler's Germany, to modern day Israel and Tibet...it seems this is to be our legacy as a species...we'll either get over it, or kill ourselves in the process.

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by eyelikeart
why is it that men who have a sense of fashion and are artistic often stereotyped as being gay?

have fun with this one! :p

OK, from the resident fag's point of view (it's like the n word, i can use it because i am one :) ) it's because there are no straight men with taste... if you have a straight guy that knows how to dress, you've got a Mary on your hands ;)

just kidding of course...:)

actually i think it has to do with those who are gay, or "enlightened" being more openly in touch with their so-called feminine side, while butch guys hide and from an early age refuse to nurture (there's that word again :P ) these artistic or fashon senses... Plus some people, regardless of orientation, don't have style, just as many guys don't have rhythm :)

Fortunately I have impeccable style *and* rhythm ;)
hehe
pnw

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by paulwhannel


I'm just waiting for this bible-beating Fred Phelps (www.godhatesfags.com) to come out... I feel so bad, there has to be a couple gay people in his familycult, those poor people thinking God condemns them for what they can't help...

if women are soft, does that make men... hard? hehehe... I could say that's why I like 'em ;)
TMI again, perhaps :)

pnw

here's a quote from me, a born-again missionary,

"fred phelps is the most evil person on earth and makes bin laden look like santa claus"

you can print that

amen

and mr. phelps, get the heck out of my religion, you flying ****

ps - i feel quite ok to swear when it comes to people obviously more evil than bin laden, timothy mcveigh, or hitler

[mischief]

I had a thought a while back:

If the human species started out as 1 race...........how did we get so many phenotype groups?

Answer: War.

Killing over slight differences only enhances those differences through genetically bottlenecking the oppressed group and concentrating their "look and feel". The ultimate "racism begets racism" arguement...........it holds up too.

[jefhatfield]

where hitler burned people in ovens, phelps would have no problem killing each and every enemy he had with chinese water torture or methods used in the spanich inquisition

people like phlelps are throwbacks to the age of the church when they raped other countries for their gold, killed their able bodied men, and stole their women...in the name of religion

phelps is the example of an agent of satan used to divide and try to conquer christianity

the christian identity movement is another

hitler and his christian hitler youth is another example

so it is not just the jihads of the muslim faith that blow up innocent civilians...phelps and his followers would follow suit in a second and make the suicide bombers look benign

you have to remember, phelps and his followers are more educated and well armed than most jihads and they live right here in the usa, which makes them the terrorists we need to watch out for

[jefhatfield]

whew, i got that out of my system...

being a christian, when i see christian bin laden types, it just makes my blood boil

the muslim bin laden types are bad enough, but the christian bin laden types live here in the us and that makes it even more unacceptable

if i grew up in another country with another religion and i read the violent history of the catholic church, the violent protestant reformation, jim jones, and now this phelps guy, i would think that christians were the great satan

but thank god i read and i have a bible and i can have the luxury to read jesus christ's words

in many countries, people do not read even their own language and once they get whiff of someone as evil as phelps, jim jones, or some other nut, it is no wonder they want to retaliate thinking that christendom will raid their country again in yet another "crusade"...all it takes is a tin horn dictator to twist the facts and make phelps and george bush the same person and the ancient crusades and the un the same entity and there you have it, another ignorant zealot dead along with innocent civilians

[eyelikeart]

thank u for your enlightenment on my question...

I've often been curious as to why this is in society. Personally, I've been flamed by a good friend of mine whom I've always felt had issues regarding his sexuality...mainly because I have what many say is a good sense of taste with dress...am artistic...can be on occasion sensitive...and I prefer red wine over anything else...

However...I am very much straight...have never had it any other way and will likely never. There have been a few times when I know I'm being checked out...that's cool with me completely. I admit, I do wish it were the opposite...but hey what can I do? What does bother me is this one time while on vacation some guy swore just by the sheer fact that I looked decent and was drinking red wine while out that I was gay and just didn't realize it yet (and yes he was himself)...

damn...what did this thread originally start off as?! ;)

[rainman::|:|]

Wow, I had no idea so many people even took notice of the guy, let alone felt so strongly. People that I don't agree with, I try to see from their point of view, understand their logic, and therefore better understand why they think these things. But phelps has no logic. He knows what he's doing is wrong. I urge you all to read something called the Fred Phelps Exposé, it details how he grew up, his time as a lawyer (he has since been removed from the bar) the child abuse that is beyond anything I've seen (save Dave Pelzer) and finally his anti-gay ministry.

Was on the site last week, he was ranting about how the Queen Mum is in hell because she's a "fag enabler" along with Princess Diana. I used to be very vocal about Phelps, but now I let him speak for himself-- there's a saying in the gay community that Phelps is one of our greatest allies. That's probably why no one has killed the man yet. He makes even the most hardcore anti-gay bigot think, "God, is this what I am?"

Had the privledge of speaking with him, via email, and he is actually somewhat intelligent, in that derranged way. You'd think he would know how to shut his mouth, but he seems hellbent (no pun intended) on ruining every last shred of credibility--

So anymore I find him harmless. Except in one aspect: Funeral pickets. I'm having dinner with Matthew Shepard's mother in June, and I almost cry whenever I see her, knowing what hell they put her through at his funeral. Thats how he's most dangerous - The human race needs a restraining order on the man.

:)
pnw

[britboy]

what that guy phelps has to say on his web-site almost reminds me about the kind of religious nut from Waco.

It's sad that he's able to use the freedom of speech available on the 'net to spout such hatred towards a group of people who i'm sure have done nothing to harm him. How can he even call himself a christian? 'God hates america/england...' and all that crap. If he'd really read the bible he'd know that God doesn't hate anyone. Damn it, people like that are enough to make you tear my hair out!

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by eyelikeart
thank u for your enlightenment on my question...

I've often been curious as to why this is in society. Personally, I've been flamed by a good friend of mine whom I've always felt had issues regarding his sexuality...mainly because I have what many say is a good sense of taste with dress...am artistic...can be on occasion sensitive...and I prefer red wine over anything else...

However...I am very much straight...have never had it any other way and will likely never. There have been a few times when I know I'm being checked out...that's cool with me completely. I admit, I do wish it were the opposite...but hey what can I do? What does bother me is this one time while on vacation some guy swore just by the sheer fact that I looked decent and was drinking red wine while out that I was gay and just didn't realize it yet (and yes he was himself)...

damn...what did this thread originally start off as?! ;)

Haha... I've always thought, to be checked out by either sex is a huge compliment. As for the gay guy... We tend to be very good at identifying other gay people, it's known as gaydar... usually it's based on kind of a sixth sense, but occasionally a rogue queer will try it with something like dress - All i can say is, he probably meant it as a compliment... or really wanted some fun... heh...

And the one thing i've noticed here is that threads *never* stay where they're supposed to ;) Do have to say I love being engaged in such conversation, and i'm glad to have found macrumors :) *looks over* Almost a regular, i think :)

Oh, and if any of you need a good laugh about Phelps, go to my favorite parody site, www.landoverbaptist.org

pnw

[krossfyter]

christian crusaders are not really around anymore..i dont think....sure there are isolated cases.

however...i know that there are muslim versions all around.


makes me think...

[Gelfin]

Personally I am highly skeptical of the studies that purport to demonstrate "genetic homosexuality." To me it all smells of ad hoc experimentation by someone motivated by the usual "identity politics" crap. Even on a charitable reading of those experiments, they suffer from post hoc fallacy. Demonstrating a correlation is not the same as proving causality, because you have not determined which way the causality runs, or if perhaps both conditions were not caused by some external factor.

But what really irritates me about the whole "I was born this way" argument is that it's an apology. When you say "I can't help being this way," you're really saying, "I would love to be able to conform to your bigoted viewpoint, but it's not possible, so I deserve your pity rather than your hate." People who prefer vanilla to chocolate generally begin expressing that preference at a very young age, but nobody would waste their time looking for a genetic component for vanilla-liking because nobody is trying to make an apology for their preference towards vanilla.

I'm totally with jef on this one -- everybody falls somewhere on the "bi" spectrum, and the need to pigeonhole oneself as totally one or the other is a socially imposed stricture. It's like the only thing that both the gay and straight political camps agree on is that it's a two-position switch in people's brains labeled "straight/gay"... and I'm pretty convinced that both sides are kinda stupid that way.

[eyelikeart]

Originally posted by paulwhannel
Haha... I've always thought, to be checked out by either sex is a huge compliment. As for the gay guy... We tend to be very good at identifying other gay people, it's known as gaydar... usually it's based on kind of a sixth sense, but occasionally a rogue queer will try it with something like dress - All i can say is, he probably meant it as a compliment... or really wanted some fun... heh...


see that's the thing....after that certain "encounter"...I asked several people who know me if I gave off that type of vibe and each one laughed ridiculously at me...I suppose there's a big difference from when u simply see someone around and when u actually know them...

I've come to accept that it's going to happen...and I can handle it...I am comfortable completely from where I stand on the matter... ;)

[krossfyter]

i totaly understand your situation eyelikeart.

[eyelikeart]

Originally posted by krossfyter
i totaly understand your situation eyelikeart.

ha ha ha...thanks for conceding krossfyter...

seems we're starting to know each other on a much more personal level here lately... :p

God Bless MacRumors!!! he he he...

[krossfyter]

i mean in terms of dress and style..etc.etc. and me being an artist and all that jazz.


:D

[jefhatfield]

being a christian, i am not supposed to hate anyone, including satan (who still thinks he can win over the universe)

i do not hate hitler, i do not hate bin laden, and i certainly do not believe in the death penalty under any circumstance...'he who is without sin cast the first stone" - jesus, a well known jewish carpenter

but phlelps should be put to death by every right because he has blasphemed the name of christianity in such a way he has turned hundred of thousands, if not millions of people away from the faith...i cannot think of anyone who has prevented more people from looking at christians with an open mind

at least jimmy swaggart asked for forgiveness publicly and jim bakker admitted to his wrongdoings

jim jones was mentaly ill and had no idea what he did as heinous as his sins were...same with son of sam and ed gheen

assuming phelps is not crazy, then he is pure evil and the best revenge would be to have him become a real christian and apologize

in the new testament times, the most evil man according to christians was not herod or caesar, but a religious hitman named saul who killed and tortured countless christians simply because of their faith

in his own admission, paul said there was no man more evil than himself...and as the story goes, god dealt him a blow and saul converted and from then on was later known as paul the apostle

short of someone killing phelps, which my human nature wants, my spiritual side says he NEEDS to be converted to real christianity (as mentioned by cs lewis ans quoted by krossfyter here on these boards)

for such an evil man against the faith, i need to pray for phelps to turn around, but my intense hatred for him makes it almost impossible as more and more non-christians try to associate me with him which makes me sick to no end

i feel so strongly, paul w, because phelps is almost single handedly destroying christianity in america...and even more than the priests who are child molesters

it is a hard cross to bear to be commanded to "love your enemy"

jef

[eyelikeart]

I can't believe u mentioned him!!!

sad as it is...I could show u right where it was that he got busted on Airline Hwy...

[krossfyter]

jethatfield? why do you think you cant hate satan?

isnt there such a thing as righteous anger or hate?

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by krossfyter
jethatfield? why do you think you cant hate satan?

isnt there such a thing as righteous anger or hate?

Perhaps I'm not qualified to answer this, not being Christian and all, but I have studied the scriptures, and I think Christ would be against hating Satan... He would say to avoid him, and to not be lead astray by him, but Satan is all part of God's plan, and he serves His purpose. If Christianity is the quest to become as Christlike as possible, then one would not hate Satan. To not hate Satan is not necessarily to love Satan, and to love Satan is not necessarily to follow Satan... Just a refusal to pass judgement, as God is the only one with the authority to judge. Can you imagine a worse penalty on Satan than to be loved by humanity for what he is, and yet ignored and not followed?

jef, I admire your stance, and I think you're one of the few Christians I could calmly discuss theology with. To strive to love all, regardless of their flaws or evil, is to strive for perfection in my eyes. As the verse says, Judge not lest ye be judged...

That being said, I think God should smite Phelps. :) Does that make me judgemental? yes, but i don't aspire to be Christlike...
:)
pnw

[ejb190]

Originally posted by Gelfin
Personally I am highly skeptical of the studies that purport to demonstrate "genetic homosexuality." To me it all smells of ad hoc experimentation by someone motivated by the usual "identity politics" crap.

Being a scientist myself, I am always skeptical of science reports, especially from the TV news. TV reporters always manage to make possibilities sound like absolutes.

Reminds me of one of my favorite quotes:
"First get your facts; then you can distort them at your leisure." - Mark Twain

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by paulwhannel


Perhaps I'm not qualified to answer this, not being Christian and all, but I have studied the scriptures, and I think Christ would be against hating Satan... He would say to avoid him, and to not be lead astray by him, but Satan is all part of God's plan, and he serves His purpose. If Christianity is the quest to become as Christlike as possible, then one would not hate Satan. To not hate Satan is not necessarily to love Satan, and to love Satan is not necessarily to follow Satan... Just a refusal to pass judgement, as God is the only one with the authority to judge. Can you imagine a worse penalty on Satan than to be loved by humanity for what he is, and yet ignored and not followed?

jef, I admire your stance, and I think you're one of the few Christians I could calmly discuss theology with. To strive to love all, regardless of their flaws or evil, is to strive for perfection in my eyes. As the verse says, Judge not lest ye be judged...

That being said, I think God should smite Phelps. :) Does that make me judgemental? yes, but i don't aspire to be Christlike...
:)
pnw



Good answer man. thanks for that. i too was thinking about this and i sorta ended up on what you posted here. thanks.


and yes Jethatfield is a cool christian. i was surprised... there arent much out there. most can seem judgemental and very harsh.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by krossfyter
jethatfield? why do you think you cant hate satan?

isnt there such a thing as righteous anger or hate?

heck i went to bible college and paul w answered your question better than any pastor i know...way to go paul...you will be converted yet;)

having had a fellow missionary get his head blown off in belfast and then going there in the name of a protestant church in the war zone of falls road answers a lot of gray areas in christianity

i did not expect to come out of it alive and i said goodbye to everyone i loved...it sets scripture in sharp focus

other issues are "why does god allow suffering in the world" and "why are there so many christian denominations, some of who will kill each other like in belfast" and other tough questions

one thing i know, cs lewis was and is respected by both sides in war torn belfast and was truly a messenger from god to the 20th century...not a perfect man, but the best example i have ever heard of

but only christ was perfect and all christians are but forgiven sinners and will never be perfect in this life...a tough concept to swallow

ps - i know there are some churches that teach that a christian can be sinless on the earth plane and while i agree with the same saviour as them, i respectfully disagree on this point in my humblest opinion

[krossfyter]

doesnt it say in scripture that God hates....(something)....


im not sure though.


but yeah C.S. Lewis is the man.

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
heck i went to bible college and paul w answered your question better than any pastor i know...way to go paul...you will be converted yet;)

Why thank you :) My mom says the same thing - she thinks that my spiritual diversions from the church I was raised in are a normal cycle in post-adolescent ideology, and that I shouldn't be so sure I've made up my mind yet. While I can't imagine coming back to the church, I certainly can't rule it out, who knows where i'll be in 10, 20, 60 years :)

[i]
ps - i know there are some churches that teach that a christian can be sinless on the earth plane and while i agree with the same saviour as them, i respectfully disagree on this point in my humblest opinion [/B]

I agree with you - I had some friends in high school that swore to be canonized is to be declared sinless, and that all catholic saints are without sin - I can't believe this. Mostly, because some sin definitions are in gray areas of the bible, some can be altered subtly by different interpretations, as well as those that are contradictory - I think the point of a lot of the bible is that one cannot be without sin, therefore it is necessary to turn to Christ to find redemption for our human nature...

:)
pnw

[jefhatfield]

i think you have a christian gene in you:D

[mischief]

To bring things back on topic:

An anecdote:

While my wife and I were first dating we frequented a Gay coffee house in Santa Cruz. Milady liked flirting with the Barrista-ette and it was a wonderfully SAFE place to just hang out. Any idiot who walked in with an attitude was in for it. Picture getting chewed out by a (very cute) petite Lez then getting politely muscled out by 3-4 flamers (new context here I suppose;) ).

There were pool tables (the coin op variety) and we were using the middle of the 3. There was a roup of 6 flamboyantly Gay men at the back table and I had a thing for tight jeans and silk shirts at the time...........

We played pool for about 10 minutes without noticing how much I was being watched until I leaned over to kiss milady........ one of the group in the back wailed "nnnoooooooo!!" and we all had a good laugh (his friends included).

It's funny how being a bit risquee in my behavior can confuse folks on that score.:D I was rather flattered and still am when it happens. I just wish I could find silks that were not, without question designed for a Gay, Black or Asian man.

It's funny how being sexy and open in public is viewed as "Gay" if you also happen to be white. I'm rather jealous of Asian and Black males that can wear fur and polished silk without coming across as a Pimp or a flip.

[cleo]

First, I have to say how impressed I am that this thread is so positive and affirming of all people. When I saw how many people had posted to it, I was almost afraid to open it up. I am so pleased to see such positive and creative conversation on such a volatile (especially on the 'net) subject! One more reason why Mac users should run the world. :)

As for the "choice" thing... I think I do have a choice! I have a choice to be authentically who I am (which just so happens to be queer) or to conform to what is expected of me by society and destroy my life with self-hatred and anger. I choose happiness and lots of soft, spiritually evolved women! :)

Also, some relevant web sites:

http://www.qmug.org/
A Queer MUG - Check out "Why a Queer MUG" under the FAQ

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/scotts/bulgarians/rainbow-flag.html
The history of the gay rainbow flag (someone was asking about this earlier in the thread)

Rock on!

[mischief]

If you follow the "GayDAR" analogy than I'm like a Sparrow missile.

A Sparrow missile has the RADAR signiture of 4 B-52's but it's only 12 feet long and is most certainly NOT a bomber. Some cheaper gaydar gets confused.:D

I've had many Gay and Lesbian friends. Cool folks. The only thing I don't like are "Attention" Gays. The ones who are only homosexual to bug a parent or gain popularity.

[jefhatfield]

when i go out in public with my ibook, i am an attention mac user...i can't help it:(

i do it to piss off bill gates, my employer

[Taft]

76 posts in one day!!!

Thats got to be a record.

My thought is that sexuality doesn't enter into it. Face it, Macs are a way of life. Macs are no more heterosexual, homosexual, republican, democratic, liberal, conservative, scientific, financial, graphical, audio than any other computer. Sure, they appeal to certain kinds of people, but those people fall into a wide variety of personal and professional categories.

I've met rich, poor, liberal, conservative, gay and straight people who preferred Macs. Each of these people's way of life really didn't enter into it--they just liked Macs. Its just like how a variety of people like baseball, mathematics, music or plants. It just engrained into some people.

Matthew

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by cleo
First, I have to say how impressed I am that this thread is so positive and affirming of all people. When I saw how many people had posted to it, I was almost afraid to open it up. I am so pleased to see such positive and creative conversation on such a volatile (especially on the 'net) subject! One more reason why Mac users should run the world. :)

As for the "choice" thing... I think I do have a choice! I have a choice to be authentically who I am (which just so happens to be queer) or to conform to what is expected of me by society and destroy my life with self-hatred and anger. I choose happiness and lots of soft, spiritually evolved women! :)

Hello Cleo! Wondered who was going to "come out" of the woodwork...
*gives you a hug*
I just happen to be the world's foremost certified dutchboi :) lol

As this thread winds down, or at least seems to, let me again thank you all for having such open minds, thank those of you who chose not to express hurtful viewpoints, and especially thank those that shared in a very interesting dialogue... it's good to know I never have to worry about being myself on this site :)

Arn, you have a *wonderful* thing going here :)

pnw

[3rdpath]

over the last two days the topics of politics/religion and sexuality have been discussed in an amazing manner. i was pretty involved in the politics thread but this one i've just been a fly on the wall. i guess i know enough to know i don't know enough to propose any theories of my own.
(i do think in our typical human quest to explain and classify the people around us, we grossly oversymplify the complexities of the universe- we're just NOT that smart.)

things would be much easier if we could accept that everyone is part of the master plan and get on with our happiness.

paul and cleo, i appreciate your openness.

i thought about this thread while i was getting my daughter( 18 months today!) ready for bed-i don't care if she's hetero/homo/bi sexual when she grows up. i just hope she finds someone who loves her for who she is.

[3rdpath]

and thanks jeff-your threads have really built a community.

[eyelikeart]

that's pretty damned funny!!! he he he...

I've personally never really had "fun" with it like your story...honestly I didn't become more comfortable with it until the last couple years...

has anyone by chance been to New Orleans? there are certain spots within the French Quarter where u could play that scenerio over and over...he he he...

and to repeat what's already been said a few posts above...this has turned into a great thread...very positive feedback from everyone...I'm really glad to see everyone getting along and discussing this easily...makes it really good to know there are people in this country who don't have their heads up their @sses...

well...afterall...we are Mac users...so it makes sense!! :p

[3rdpath]

i can't believe everyone's been so civil-not one warning from arn-makes me a fuzzy inside.

and eye, yes i know of the area on bourbon street you're talking about. wasn't too hard to miss with the balconies and all. and the music. why have gay bars always had the best music-i dunno? i started going to 'em when i was in high school but i had to keep it a secret because....i was a musician. those were the days when any form of dance music was frowned upon by the rock community. then i was "outed" in class by someone who had seen me there. true story. :eek:

[Rower_CPU]

It has definitely been entertaining and informative...

I think that since enough of us regulars were driving the conversation the people who might have turned things sour stayed away...who knows, maybe I don't give people enough credit...but some of the things I've seen people post here make me think that even Mac users aren't always open minded...

[eyelikeart]

Originally posted by 3rdpath
i can't believe everyone's been so civil-not one warning from arn-makes me a fuzzy inside.

and eye, yes i know of the area on bourbon street you're talking about. wasn't too hard to miss with the balconies and all. and the music. why have gay bars always had the best music-i dunno? i started going to 'em when i was in high school but i had to keep it a secret because....i was a musician. those were the days when any form of dance music was frowned upon by the rock community. then i was "outed" in class by someone who had seen me there. true story. :eek:

there's been no animosity here...so why should arn be worried?!

As for music...I'm not really sure. I think it's the whole dancing thing...since most men aren't into it for fun I suppose. Think about it...u go to a club...how many men there are having fun dancing around as opposed to trying to get laid?

what I don't understand is the whole "gay disco" thing....u are right...it is great dance music. (I hope this doesn't fly anyone off the handle) Does this have something to do with the Village People in the 70's?!

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by eyelikeart
what I don't understand is the whole "gay disco" thing....u are right...it is great dance music. (I hope this doesn't fly anyone off the handle) Does this have something to do with the Village People in the 70's?!

My Dad actually knew one of those guys before he joined the group...theater in Sacramento area in the late 60's early 70's...small world...6 degrees of separation...etc

[3rdpath]

yea, the original lead singer was from SFO. he went solo and fell on his face...he's still in SFO, bitter but getting some serious residual checks.

thank you " behind the music":D

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by 3rdpath
i thought about this thread while i was getting my daughter( 18 months today!) ready for bed-i don't care if she's hetero/homo/bi sexual when she grows up. i just hope she finds someone who loves her for who she is.

Kids grow up so fast, don't they? They're so much fun at that age. Until they start the terrible twos. then you need closets that lock.

I think to be loved is the biggest thing anyone can hope for in life - truely loved, I mean. I'm lucky because at age 19 I've found my soulmate. Many aren't so lucky. But to keep such an open attitude at an early age, means your daughter will grow up in a loving environment, she'll love herself, and that's the first step to finding true love :) Hate may beget hate, bigotry bigotry, etc etc... But stronger than any of them, love begets love :)

Your daughter is lucky to have such a great dad :)

pnw

[afonso]

i just have to say that it's sad that in a culture and a city so open minded for these and mostly all other kinds of things...

england is one of the countries with the most conservative "gay rights" laws in Europe.

I guess I will only get married in the States, when I move to there in a few years...

About this whole mac thing. I've always been told that Macs were for girls, ever since I can remember and I'm now 23. Of course, at the time I was living in Portugal where every guy has a "i-am-latin-so-i-am-macho" kind of attitude.

I just have to agree that Macs let you express yourself with what you are inside, that's probably why Macs are more of a religion than anything else :)

To all other gay guys/girls in the closet, just be yourselves. Do whatever you feel like doing and what makes you truly happy.

I guess I was lucky to have found my soulmate 3 years ago and have the best parents and friends around.

Never had a single problem with anyone.

(Only the brits for not letting me marry, but that's another story...)

Take care,
Afonso

[eyelikeart]

I've met quite a few individuals who fit into that category u just listed afonso...

how exactly was it that u were forced to think that Macs were for girls though?!

[afonso]

I just said that I've always been told that Macs are for girls...

Ever since I got my mac and was 5 years old, I kept hearing from everyone else that Macs were only for girls...

Well, I never agreed with them... I would use PCs if they would let me creative in them, but they just don't make it.

Love Apple, love the Mac and that's what I want to make for as my career...

I'm actually only seeking jobs related to developing on the Mac or for the Mac... let's see what happens :)

Long live Apple and Jobs :)
Later,
Afonso

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by 3rdpath
and thanks jeff-your threads have really built a community.


thanks, you guys did the legwork

i just wanted to hit 1000...he he

[eyelikeart]

Originally posted by jefhatfield



thanks, you guys did the legwork

i just wanted to hit 1000...he he

I know many of here did some mad posting yesterday...does anyone have any clue how many posts they made yesterday alone?!

[agreenster]

I get really tired of this one. Whenever straight people say "I dont mind that people are gay. As long as they dont hurt anyone else, who cares?" -this really bothers me.

First, it does hurt people, more than you know. First, from a woman's perspective, there are thousands of men, who are great boyfriend/husband material who are entirely unavailable because they would rather spend their life with another man. So, cultured, polite, and educated men are replaced by the typical ass who end up beating their wives, abusing their kids, and causing more social problems.

From a man's perspective, you can't be mature, stylish, or caring without someone branding you as gay. This can (in many people) change their behavior to appear 'macho' or 'tough' and m ake them do things they normally wouldnt do.

Also, it just totally f*cks up nature, thus society. It is not natural for humans to be homosexual. It is anti-productive, and is NOT good for the general whole of society. Plus, if homosexuality was genetic, it would have died off years ago because it is impossible for them to physically procreate. I also hate the arguement "you cant say it isnt natural to be homosexual, because animals have been known to be attracted to the same sex." Yeah, animals also eat their own kind. Are you going to start a cannibalism society as well?

Does homosexuality exist? Sure. People are gay. People are also sadists, aetheists, christians, murderers, basketball players, and theives. The reason Homosexuality wasnt socially booted from the start is because it is harder to see the repercussions and damages from it, and it is hard to enforce punishment for these acts.

I guess what Im saying is, its awful that the family structure is falling apart. Homosexuality is not to blame, but it certainly doesnt help the situation. The lack of morality in the US is staggering, and homosxuality is just another symptom of this degradation.

Does God hate fags? Well, if God even exists, I doubt he hates fags any more than he hates liars, theives, murderers, alcoholics, child abusers, or anything or anyone else. We all have done things wrong in our lives, but to make these wrong things acceptable and a part of the culture is where I think the line needs to be drawn.

I guess if any of you can tell me one good, constructive thing about being gay-then maybe I can change my mind. But just "wanting to be" gay isnt good enough for me. It does more damage to society in the long run, and it isnt worth it. I know many of you disagree, but I just fear for the stability of our society. One of the last things to happen before the fall of Rome was a breakdown of the social structure: rampant homosexuality included.

[mischief]

-agreenster:

Lemme start by saying that you are completely full of ****.

Every social mammal of high intelligence uses physical intemacy as a social behavior beyond reproduction. The most highly advanced (Cetations come to mind) also express bi-sexual behavior. Reproductive rates among species that use mock-sexual behavior as a bonding tool within a social group tend to have a low sex-to-pregnancy rate even in heterosexual occurences. Homosexual animals have been found to be highly effective failsafes against situations where young are either orphaned or abandoned. For example: My 3 year old neutered MALE housecat is a better "mom" than 3 of 4 original mothers of perhaps 20 litters my wife and I fostered last year.

As to Homosexuality being "moral".

Lets just cut all the dogmatic crap shall we? The original description of God's conversation with Moses and ALL similar God/Promethian conversations go the same way:

Moses: "So what are the rules here?"

God: "Thou shalt not violate."

Moses: " Yeah......they'll buy THAT one.......sure. Look, we're gonna have to break this down to a set of rules. None of these idiots is gonna go for self-regulating their morality and health."

God: " Oh yeah, right. ****......uh......lets start with the ultimate Violatory acts and you can toss in some health-rules along the way."



Basically at the core of every religion is the same principal: All of us must be true to our own sense (not feeling or Dogma) of what's Moral. No-one has any right to override that. Everything else is societally imposed CRAP.

There is no "Gay gene" because no-one wants to find it. No-one wants to isolate the gene for adult epicanthic-folds or hyper-melanin production so why look for homosexuality?

The behavior exists, has always existed and no one is gonna get struck down for it.

Just to shoot down the next idiotic point:

HIV is NOT a "Gay Desease". The largest populations of HIV positive people exist in highly religious, poor HETEROSEXUAL cultures where the religion is so conservative there are no protocols for condoms, clean needles, rape prevention or anything else to slow the advancement of a rather delicate retrovirus into Pandemic status.


Any body disagree? I've got lots more flaming where that came from on this one. Cummangetit.:mad:

[Rower_CPU]

Oh dear, where do I begin?

Let me follow up on mischief's post and show agreenster and any other silent readers out there how completely wrong this point of view is.

First off, who says that gay men are all "cultured, polite, and educated"? Men are men. I'm sure paul, afonso and others can attest to abusive relationships between gay men too. We can be ****s and we we can be great guys...regardless of our sexual preferences. Please get the stereotypes out of your mind before they clog your perceptions any further.

Societal restrictions on gender roles are ridiculous, and thankfully, are slowly dying away. If a man is afraid to show his feminine side because of what his friends might think, then he needs new friends.

As for nature...get a clue! The world is overpopulated as it is, and the human race is in no danger of dying out. A little population regulation by this means is perfectly acceptable.


Morality and Christian values are becoming the main arguments against homosexuality these days, and that's just wrong. God, if he exists, loves all people...no matter what! It is completely against the Christian way of life to condemn anyone, and it typifies the hypocritical zeal most of these people display. Don't be one of these people!

Just like mischief...I'm just getting warmed up...don't make me crank this up to 11!

[3rdpath]

you can find happiness and love with another gay person.

agreenster, you are exceedingly dull and obtuse. the obvious fact that you are the ONLY negative poster on this thread gives me faith that the laws of Darwinism are quickly converging and you will soon be submerged in a mental tar-pit with your destined to fail brethren.

now turn off your computer and go play in the street.:)

[eyelikeart]

open-mindedness and freeing one's mind of the ********* that's all around us...why is it so hard to just live our lives without having to get so involved in other's?

It's a shame to say that everywhere in this country in the year 2002...not 1879...that we are continuing to be scared of things like homosexuality. so ******** what?! I honestly feel that this country is far from moving forward. We make such incredible technological advances...but act like complete @sses by being so concerned with how we look. It's not evolution...I know that much. We're not advancing...we're regressing as a species...a society.

I realize there is not mention of it in the bible...but I truly feel that it's called "free will." People are people...period...whether they feel they are "born that way" or just become it....deal with it. Why should u worry about what your gay neighbor is doing when he's living for him/herself? I don't understand why people can have their heads so far up their @sses and be completely full of themselves and be selfish about who they are and what they want to achieve...but when the topic of homosexuality arises..."just don't come near me with it" is often the reply and they want to pretend it's simply not there?!

it's much....much easier to point the finger and lay blame elsewhere...rather than to be a "man" about it and face it without fear...

agreenster...I've always respected your posts and agreed with u on many fronts here at macrumors...but I think u need to have a serious reality check buddy...:rolleyes:

I do not have any gay friends...I've known gay people...and they were always fine...fine people. why do we have to bash this way of life here?

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by agreenster
I get really tired of this one. Whenever straight people say "I dont mind that people are gay. As long as they dont hurt anyone else, who cares?" -this really bothers me.

Fortunately I don't have to make a drawn out response to your post, because my new friends here aren't buying it, in fact they seem rather opposed to your ideas. I do want to touch on a couple of things tho:
1. How can being gay be bad for the genetic composition of humanity? you pointed out, so eloquently, that we cannot reproduce. The only natural way for a gay man to reproduce is for him to marry a woman who he will not love. That's got to be good for women everywhere, right?
2. The fall of Rome, eh? What about every other nation that embraced homosexuality? Let's look at Florence, Italy, circa late 1400's. Birth of the rennaisance, rebirth of the arts. Almost every stylish man (I'm talking straight here) took on young boy protogés, and raped them constantly. That wasn't even homosexuality, just desperate sodomy, and Italy certainly didn't fall. Greece is a good example as well, as the gays there lived a (somewhat) open life for the last 1000 years. Ever heard of the Isle of Lesbos? And Greece is still a healthy functioning part of the world. The fall of Rome was because of an extreme inbalance in the social structure, to dramatically oversimplify.

3. Gay people are horrible for morality... Okay, lets say I agree. The following people have had a detrimental impact on society:
Leonardo DaVinci. Elanor Roosevelt, Rosie O'Donell, Michalangelo. Sir Ian McKellan, Emily Di¢kenson, Florence Nightingale, Sir Frances Bacon. Susan B. Anthony, Herman Melville, Nathaniel Hawthorne. Willa Cather, Walt Whitman, Greta Garbo. Liberace, Aaron Copeland, Andy Warhol, Amelia Earhart, Elton John, k. d. lang, Lily Tomlin.
Need I continue?

I'm sure God compares these people to theives, cutthroats, and whatever else you likened us to.
Yes, I've known gay people that I wouldn't wish on anyone. I have been in love with, among others, a self-destructor and a sociopath. You know what's sad about the self-destructor, tho? All his suicide attempts, his unhealthy lifestyle (I'm not *just* talking casual sex here)... It's because he had a mother just like you.

I'm not trying to change your mind here. Once a zealot is affirmed, they will never falter. But keep this in mind the next time someone you love comes out, before you destroy all he has worked so hard to accept himself. I hope you never have children to spread this rhetoric to.
:rolleyes:
pnw

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by afonso
iengland is one of the countries with the most conservative "gay rights" laws in Europe.

I guess I will only get married in the States, when I move to there in a few years...

Afonso,

Great to hear your opinion on this thread!

As for marriage... We would certainly love to have you here (that accent is so sexy ;) ) but unfortunately, we can only marry in one small state. It's a hard battle, to get recognized in other states, and it's uphill, as many states have passed "sanctity of marriage" bills specifically denying gays the right to marry. Fun, eh? But we have many wonderful, large groups campaigning for the rights we deserve and demand. It's only a matter of time. Public opinion is shifting fast, in some places it's quite a majority, although opposition groups are quick to make up false numbers. The US is quite a great nation, and I'm confident it will soon recognize the importance of marriage to the gay population (we number 20-40 million in the US alone)...

Which of course brings me to the obligatory political involvement announcement: If anyone who reads this agrees, and wants to see something done, write your congressmen. It may seem futile, but you'd be surprised how these letters affect how they vote on important legislation. In democracy, we have the right to be heard, and the only way to be heard is to speak up!

:)
pnw

[rainman::|:|]

ugh double post sorry...
pnw

[evildead]

I got teased alot when I got my Rev-A iMac. Girls would come buy and say "Its so cute, I want one" Any my buddies would spout off all kinds of crap. No one makes fun of My Quicksilver. I think that Apple has made some good moves in the direction of styal and away from the more fem stuff. The new iBooks and iMacs are a little fluffy looking but they are much better than the old iMac's The TiBooks and Towers look very sleek, professional, and down right sexy.

[evildead]

Originally posted by krossfyter
doesnt it say in scripture that God hates....(something)....


im not sure though.


but yeah C.S. Lewis is the man.

no... but it does say that Gays are worty of death. Along with Gossupers and a few other bad people. Romans 2 23 or so.

Thats one of the reasons why Im not a christain.

As for gays? Who cares? I don't. They are people that just like things a diffrent way. I like Onions in my Marti's Most people do not. Does that mean I need to be labled? I am now part of the "Gipson group", my helth bennifits will be changed and any marages that I might have in the future will only be recognised in states were Gipson Marti's are popular. I'm sure if any one looked in my bedroom window and saw what king of things I was doing with my Girl friend, I might be considered a sexual deviant. And I do it with My Marti in hand!

[Taft]

Just curious if anyone out there has done the AIDS ride??

And before anyone says it--I know, its not a gay-oriented ride, its for AIDS. But the representation of gays and celebration of being themselves on the ride is incredible.

I did the ride last summer and met some really incredible people on it both gay and straight. It was one of t he best groups of people I've ever encountered in my life Everyone on the ride was really nice, kind and generous. I'm from a small town in the upper penninsula of Michigan and the gay community isn't really represented up there. So this was one of my first introductions in these regards.

It was actually kind of funny--in most places in the world, people make the assumption that you are straight. But on the AIDS Ride, everyone automatically assumed I was gay. I went with a friend of mine from work and we are both straight males, but everyone we met kept thinking we were a couple. It makes it kind of hard to meet women to have a relationship with if they assume your not only taken but "not available" in other regards. Heh.

If anyone would like to do some charity work and is looking for a re-affirming experience as well, I highly recommend the AIDS Ride. It was really a great experience.

Matthew

[mischief]

The HIV pandemic is a very sad state of affairs. The solution to retroviruses is remarkably simple.....ask any immunologist or virologist. It's a weak virus.

Most of the dammage associated with the AIDS syndrome is not directly caused by the HIV but by the immune system reacting to an abundance of characteristic "tagger" protiens that slough off of the virus as it travels throughout the body. Effectivelty HIV has "chaff". The body exhausts itself attacking anything with the right chemical signature which, unfortunately includes a large number of native, innocent cells.

Once the body is weakened and tenderizing itself the oppertunistic infections take over and kill the patient.

The problem is this:

No amount of money will change the fact that the very people that have been trusted to cure AIDS don't want to. They want to Treat AIDS. There is a VERY distinct difference. Curing it solves the problem. Treating it makes money. The same is true of Cancer and many other deadly ailments. The technology exists but there is more motivation in greed than in doing what's right.

The whole situation pisses me off and sends me into a funk. So in answer to your question: No, I haven't been to an AIDS ride or walk cuz I'd feel like a hypocrite for raising money that won't go to solving the problem, only to prolonging the suffering of millions of people. Sorry to be such a downer. I just had to get that off my chest.:(

[Rower_CPU]

If you've never seen it, the AIDS quilt is a life changing experience...

I saw one a few years ago, and it's impossible not to be touched by the human emotion expressed on those pieces of fabric. AIDS affects everyone from poor people in Africa with no access to education and contraceptives, to superstar actors and athletes...

The misconception that AIDS is a "gay" disease is keeping the effort to find a cure from being taken up in earnest. Straight people and gay people are dying everyday from this disease...very sad...


On just a slightly related note, if you've never seen/heard Rent (the musical) you're missing out on a great piece of modern musical theater. Jonathon Larson, the author, was an amazing talent who succumbed to AIDS before seeing his success come to full realization...and, yes, straight men can enjoy musicals...I can sing Broadway with the best of them, and I'm proud of it!

[Gelfin]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
First off, who says that gay men are all "cultured, polite, and educated"?

*snicker* Um, yeah, I invite agreenster to visit the bar I had to walk past on my way to work for several months. Cultured, polite and educated were not on the menu.

Originally posted by eyelikeart
It's a shame to say that everywhere in this country in the year 2002...not 1879...

Ironically, American culture was, overall, far more tolerant of homosexuality in 1879. The political boundaries had not been drawn quite so explicitly at that time. It was not terribly uncommon for single people (male and female) to have very close same-sex friendships. Most of those eventually went on to heterosexual marriages. Nowadays it would be almost impossible to make such a transition, because you'd be stigmatized from both directions.

agreenster clearly just has this common stereotypical view of gay people. Even before he gets to the misplaced moralizing, his supposed "practical" argument has gone all wrong. Gay men aren't depriving women of good mates, because there are also lesbians. Nobody's forcing women into relationships with jackasses.

As to the argument that it's "not natural," that argument only obtains if you stick to the assumption that the only reason for sex is procreation. There's ample evidence in other primate species (as well as cetacians, as somebody pointed out earlier) that sex also serves a valuable social purpose. Binobos (kind of like a small chimp) have a social structure where what humans call "sex acts" are practically currency, and occur between individuals pretty much regardless of any of the strictures humans regard as "natural."

Furthermore, there is some evidence to suggest that incidence of homosexuality increases with density of local population. Now one explanation for this might be that the "everybody knows everybody else's business" nature of smaller communities keeps smaller-town folk in the closet more effectively, but another hypothesis put forth is that homosexual behavior is an instinctive, natural population limiter. Instinctive or not, it does tend to have that effect, and so that would certainly be the "one good thing" agreenster was looking for.

[Gelfin]

Originally posted by mischief
The problem is this:

No amount of money will change the fact that the very people that have been trusted to cure AIDS don't want to. They want to Treat AIDS. There is a VERY distinct difference. Curing it solves the problem. Treating it makes money. The same is true of Cancer and many other deadly ailments. The technology exists but there is more motivation in greed than in doing what's right.


I have no doubt there's some of that going on in the biotech/pharmaceutical industry, but I have a lot of very good friends at UCSF who get really upset at the implication that they're not interested in curing things, especially since a healthy percentage of them are in their chosen fields partially as a result of having someone very close to them suffer and/or die as a result of the conditions they are researching.

At least you're not one of those "ACT-UP" conspiracy loons we've got out here. Those people are scary.

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
If you've never seen it, the AIDS quilt is a life changing experience...

I saw one a few years ago, and it's impossible not to be touched by the human emotion expressed on those pieces of fabric. AIDS affects everyone from poor people in Africa with no access to education and contraceptives, to superstar actors and athletes...

The Quilt moves around a lot, or at least pieces do... I can't remember the last time it was whole, but I think it's been reassembled recently. I need to make pilgrimage out to see it, part of it came through Iowa not too terribly long ago but I couldn't make it. Everyone that I know who's seen it is rather breathless...

:)
pnw

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by Gelfin


*snicker* Um, yeah, I invite agreenster to visit the bar I had to walk past on my way to work for several months. Cultured, polite and educated were not on the menu.

:eek: i'm shocked! hehehe...

As to the argument that it's "not natural," that argument only obtains if you stick to the assumption that the only reason for sex is procreation. There's ample evidence in other primate species (as well as cetacians, as somebody pointed out earlier) that sex also serves a valuable social purpose. Binobos (kind of like a small chimp) have a social structure where what humans call "sex acts" are practically currency, and occur between individuals pretty much regardless of any of the strictures humans regard as "natural."

Furthermore, there is some evidence to suggest that incidence of homosexuality increases with density of local population. Now one explanation for this might be that the "everybody knows everybody else's business" nature of smaller communities keeps smaller-town folk in the closet more effectively, but another hypothesis put forth is that homosexual behavior is an instinctive, natural population limiter. Instinctive or not, it does tend to have that effect, and so that would certainly be the "one good thing" agreenster was looking for.

Ever read the research of how female penguins prostitute themselves for stones (for their nests)? Seems like both genders get something out of it, yet it's not reproduction - they often use one partner for that... Slays the belief that sex is only for procreation, as do several other animal activities.

That said, population control is the reason I think homosexuality exists. I realize there are many other ideas, and that this isn't acceptable to some, but it makes the most sense to me. Get a man and a woman together, and nature has little to say about them popping out 10-15 kids (happens more than you think)... So eventually, 6 billion people later, something has to be done. Disease and famine don't work, we've cured them (enough to overpopulate anyway) so this is a natural evolutionary step. Can't believe I just compared gays to cancer. *slaps myself* Anyway, think of it this way: If religion and society in, say India, didn't force gays to live heterosexual lives, perhaps they wouldn't have a billion people?

I read an article this morning about how gays in China are finally starting to come out, after it was decriminalized in 1997 and removed from the list of mental disorders the following year. But because of societal restrictions, they may dance and have "fun" at gay clubs, but then go back to their wives and kids. This concept just amazed me, I mean this is a country where female babies are put in the dust bin as a matter of custom, to prevent overpopulation... and they're still making fags breed?!? in a situation like that, you just have to wonder...

:confused:
pnw

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by evildead
no... but it does say that Gays are worty of death. Along with Gossupers and a few other bad people. Romans 2 23 or so.

Thats one of the reasons why Im not a christain.

Don't forget those who wear cotton/poly blends, and those that cook a baby goat in it's mother's milk (?)

Oh, and a person with a vision disability cannot approach the alter of God...

I like Onions in my Marti's Most people do not. Does that mean I need to be labled? I am now part of the "Gipson group", my helth bennifits will be changed and any marages that I might have in the future will only be recognised in states were Gipson Marti's are popular. I'm sure if any one looked in my bedroom window and saw what king of things I was doing with my Girl friend, I might be considered a sexual deviant. And I do it with My Marti in hand!

ewww onions... hehe...
Yeah, I wonder about those guys that practice sodomy (anal not oral, and i'm not saying you do, hell i'm not saying i do) with their wives (gotta get the good submissive kind, eh?) and then condemn gays for it... Ahh but there could be an entire thread about annoying hypocracies...

BTW, evildead, have I mentioned i love your avatar?
:)
pnw

[evildead]

Thanks... a buddy of mine made my avatar for me. He says that its me. He says im shady... I have another one that looks like it with the eyes that move that I use for AIM. But is was too big for this site.


Acording to the good book 0' hypocracies... I'm in big trouble. But thats ok.

As for the onions... its the only way to go! Have to ever tried it that way? You should if your a fan of Vodika Martinis. Only the best.

-evildead

[3rdpath]

onions? vodka? blashemy ! this thread has hit a new low. get a hold of yourself man. get some gin( bombay sapphire ), get some olives- now!

ok, so i do like onions( just got some from the fridge) but i'm a dirty and bruised gin martini man..did i misplace my modifiers? oh well.

i tended bar for 8 years while a struggling musician and i have to say i make THE most amazing martinis. the research was grueling, but somehow i managed.:)

nothing like a martini and a nice stogie to take the edge off of the day.

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by 3rdpath
nothing like a martini and a nice stogie to take the edge off of the day.

Now you're speaking my kind of language...a good cigar is worth the time it takes to enjoy it.

I haven't smoked in a while, since I don't have the time, but it was a very enjoyable way to relax on the weekends.

What're your favorite brands? I'm a big fan of Fuente 8-5-8s, but my experience is fairly limited...no Cubans yet :(

[Taft]

Originally posted by mischief
The HIV pandemic is a very sad state of affairs. The solution to retroviruses is remarkably simple.....ask any immunologist or virologist. It's a weak virus.

...

The problem is this:

No amount of money will change the fact that the very people that have been trusted to cure AIDS don't want to. They want to Treat AIDS. There is a VERY distinct difference. Curing it solves the problem. Treating it makes money. The same is true of Cancer and many other deadly ailments. The technology exists but there is more motivation in greed than in doing what's right.

...

So in answer to your question: No, I haven't been to an AIDS ride or walk cuz I'd feel like a hypocrite for raising money that won't go to solving the problem, only to prolonging the suffering of millions of people. Sorry to be such a downer. I just had to get that off my chest.:(

But it is also an *adaptive* virus. The proposition of curing it is not as simple as you make it sound.

And you are right...resources do need to go into curing the problem. And the epidemic is not taken seriously enough.

But the problem with your reasoning is that there are millions of people in the world living with HIV/AIDS--many of whom don't know it. And many, many more that will get it in the years to come. In our search for a cure, we cannot forsake those people who have AIDS and need help, support, treatment and money. Living with this disease is very difficult in many ways and many of those people need help and people who care for them. For the people who can afford it, treatments are available that can greatly extend their lives and improve the quality of their lives with AIDS. For others the situation is much more bleak, simply for reasons of money or support.

Also, prevention of the virus must be a very high priority. The plight in Africa is very sad and disturbing. The lack of knowledge of the virus and even denial of its existence horribly cripples the attempts of those trying to prevent the virus's spread. This kind of problem is also spreading in America where people think the danger is subsiding.

Yes, finding a cure is important (and thats why there are also ride/walk/drives for vaccines and cures), but helping people who are living with the disease is equally important. In fact, AIDS events in any form support the cause of fighting AIDS as a whole and help raise awareness of the issue. The events that don't raise money for a cure make it very well known that their money goes to charities helping people living with AIDS and even go so far as recommending charities to donate to if you want to help find a cure. They do not *ever* minimize the importance of finding an AIDS cure and are very committed to fighting AIDS on *all* of its fronts.

Your assertion that raising money for the very needy people in the world living with AIDS is worthless or somehow hypocritical highly offends me. These charities are just of worthy of a person's money as research oriented charities. Please re-think your stance on these very hard working and kind people who help the AIDS stricken people of the world.

No hard feelings though. :) Lets just try to stick together against this horrible disease.

Matthew

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Are you kidding? I don't think even Steve Jobs when he was tripping on acid would have OKed an aesthetically revolting color scheme as Flower Power + Rainbow Logo...it would be like a Jackson Pollock painting using only pastel neon colors with a brief interruption of brilliant primary and secondary colors...yech!!! :p
Are you saying he wasn't on acid when he OKed just the flower power scheme? :)

[Rower_CPU]

Touché...probably just an acid flashback, not the full trip :D

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU


Now you're speaking my kind of language...a good cigar is worth the time it takes to enjoy it.

I haven't smoked in a while, since I don't have the time, but it was a very enjoyable way to relax on the weekends.

What're your favorite brands? I'm a big fan of Fuente 8-5-8s, but my experience is fairly limited...no Cubans yet :(

mmm i didn't see the point of cigars at first, but my father-in-law is a big stogie guy, and he lays a handful on me every time i see him... so i'm learning the finer points :)
Took me a good week to figure out how *not* to inhale... i think i broke my lungs...

'course now the sin taxes are really gonna hit 'em hard, so no cigars for me. or pop, or chocolate, or even air i'm pretty sure... damn democrats :)

pnw

[alex_ant]

Sorry I replied to that Rower, I didn't realize this thread was 5 friggin' pages long at the time and I was waaaay behind the conversation. :)

[3rdpath]

yes, stogies are a good excuse to take a break. i consider myself a fan but not an afficianado( not enough time for research...) i like the fuente line-used to smoke the small cedar wrapped ones. my favorites right now are the romeo and julieta bully ( a robusto size stick) and the hoya de monterey Barron( a dark strong maduro puppy)-it'll leave you light headed.

cuban sticks rock but theres so much fake stuff out there now i just steer clear of them unless they have the proper providence. but i can say, without a doubt, real cuban cigars are amazing. i'm partial to cohibas but diplomaticos are nice also.

i sometimes order my bullys from Mike's Cigars in Florida-great prices and no tax. the only problem is i smoke em if i got em, so usually theres only two or three in my humidor that i've picked up locally.

regardless of the brand, its always nice to just to just lite one up, strain out a frosty cold( gin) martini, sit out on the front porch and let the world pass by.

[3rdpath]

if they outlaw sodas, then only outlaws will have them.
( it was such an effective campaign for the nra!):)

[Taft]

I have recently started smoking cigars again. I'd been into them a few years ago. Like 3rdpath said, I'm no aficionado, but I enjoy a quality when I smoke it.

I've recently smoked a couple of P.G.'s (Paul Garmarian I think??). I picked a couple up after work today, in fact. They are really nice cigars. Not too heavy (leaving me a little too light headed) but not too light either. And realllll smooth taste. They are a really good fit for my tastes.

A friend invited me sailing tomorrow (sailing on Lake Michigan in April--brrrrrrr.) and I'm going to break one out on board. Maybe the weather will be nice and I'll get a glimpse of summer relaxation a little early. :cool:

Matthew

[evildead]

Originally posted by 3rdpath
onions? vodka? blashemy ! this thread has hit a new low. get a hold of yourself man. get some gin( bombay sapphire ), get some olives- now!

ok, so i do like onions( just got some from the fridge) but i'm a dirty and bruised gin martini man..did i misplace my modifiers? oh well.

i tended bar for 8 years while a struggling musician and i have to say i make THE most amazing martinis. the research was grueling, but somehow i managed.:)

nothing like a martini and a nice stogie to take the edge off of the day.


You like them Bruised?? I always take my stired... never shaken and always with 3 Onions. I have a buddy that is a bartender... he played bartender at my last NewYears party... that was a dam good party. The best Martinis I have ever had and Nekedness... oh the Nekedness!!


For any one that hasent had it... try it with Onions!! And James Bond likes his martinis all watered down, I don't ... so bartenders... dont shake it!

[3rdpath]

no stinkin flavored liqours!

no fru-fru apple martinis

no chocolate martinis

if you want something cute-order a grasshopper-at least its a classic:D

[afonso]

Hey Paul!

Thanks for your reply... Which state in the US permits gay marriages?

Also, if I were to marry in that state, if I later moved to California, would I lose that recognition?

BTW, I am not English though I have been living here for 4 years now. I am actually American AND Portuguese, but yeah, my accent is a bit of American and English all together in one package...

A mess, but it's fun :)

I haven't been to the states since 91 and I'm finally going back for a week for the WWDC in May, so I'm dying to go there again :)

It's gonna be exciting!

Later all,
Afonso

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by 3rdpath
no stinkin flavored liqours!

no fru-fru apple martinis

no chocolate martinis

if you want something cute-order a grasshopper-at least its a classic:D

I'm wading into this thread at the end, sorry.

There's nothing wrong with a margueritta, either.

A quick search at google:
As for same-sex marriages, check out the site

http://www.grasshopperdesign.com/gay_marriage/legal/legal.htm

They have it broken down by state.


I went to the Dominican Republic in 2000 and came back with a box or two of Cohibas - mmm, tasty. I went to the local cigar shop to get some more and was shocked to see the prices on cigars I bought for $1 on the island were going for over $10 in DC. If I ever go back and figure out how to stash away a couple boxes I'd be able to pay for the trip.:D

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by afonso
Which state in the US permits gay marriages?

I'm pretty sure it's Hawaii...

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by afonso
Hey Paul!

Thanks for your reply... Which state in the US permits gay marriages?

Also, if I were to marry in that state, if I later moved to California, would I lose that recognition?

Afonso,

Check out the website posted earlier, it can give you a better description. Hawaii offers some sort of partnership benefits, but they've been wobbly on the subject. A lot of people want them to reverse that. Vermont (Up in New England) offers Civil Unions, which is marriage but without using the word "marriage"... Unfortunately, like 37 states have passed "sanctity of marriage" laws so that they won't have to recognize the Union, and even the states that haven't passed them don't have to recognize 'em. So you won't get much by marrying in Vermont and moving elsewhere. Fortunately, any number of corporations want to show solidaridy for gay rights, so you can often get health/profit sharing/etc for your partner... It's no legal recognition, but it's a start :)

To find gay friendly companies...
http://www.hrc.org/worknet/asp_search/detail_search.asp
Incidently, Apple ranks fairly highly:
http://www.hrc.org/worknet/asp_search/results.asp?skey=sDetail&id=1326
:)
pnw

[jefhatfield]

i wonder if i could marry my ibook? i love it so much for something that is simply a machine

only motorcycle and car buffs are as passionate from what i have seen:D

[3rdpath]

[QUOTE]i wonder if i could marry my ibook? i love it so much for something that is simply a machine

i believe you can in cupertino:)

[Gelfin]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU

I'm pretty sure it's Hawaii...

Nope, Hawaii gave it a try and it was defeated. I think what happened is that they made too big a deal of it in the media. Oddly, I think there's still one state which recognizes gay unions, and it's one of the New England states (either Vermont or New Hampshire, I think). Someplace you wouldn't really expect, and they passed it without much fanfare.

Or I could just be out of my mind about that. But I know the Hawaii proposition went down in flames.

[addendum: wow, I should learn to read other replies before posting]

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Gelfin


Nope, Hawaii gave it a try and it was defeated. I think what happened is that they made too big a deal of it in the media. Oddly, I think there's still one state which recognizes gay unions, and it's one of the New England states (either Vermont or New Hampshire, I think). Someplace you wouldn't really expect, and they passed it without much fanfare.

Or I could just be out of my mind about that. But I know the Hawaii proposition went down in flames.

[addendum: wow, I should learn to read other replies before posting]

it passed in hawaii, but not in california

[mischief]

I wasn't saying that there isn't a point to research or that the individuals doing the work are not focussed on the issue at hand.

What I was pointing out is that US businesses are pushing chemical anti-viral attacks on a RETROVIRUS. Retroviruses are incredibly adaptable and sneaky. A frontal assault only succeeds in killing the patient slowly. HIV is not the real problem underlying AIDS as a desease.AIDS is a complex syndrome of secondary, oppertunistic infections brought on not only by the exhaustion of an immune system chasing it's tail but by tissue dammage caused by the immune response itself.

The problem is the collateral dammage caused by a confused immune system attacking human cells that have been "Tagged" by free-floating molecules that have come off the surface of roaming HIV. The same molecule that the human immune system uses to "see" HIV winds up on the surface of countless human cells and the immune system responds, killing healthy tissue and causing far more dammage than the virus itself. The answer is relatively simple: Remove the immune response by selectively killing off the immune cell types associated with HIV. Treat the patient's now simplified infection of JUST HIV the same as other chronic viral conditions such as herpes complex.

The point being made is that trusting pharmaceutical companies and HMO's to lead the research is naive, foolish and counter productive.

Trusting Academics to do the job is naive for the following reasons:

As well-meaning as the are academics are not business men and have serious control issues. I know a researcher that has been working on the approach above for YEARS and has nearly killed his own efforts through a combination of the incompitance of the non-proffit model (everything by comittee) and his own need to control the technique. While he has been covering his own butt and focussing on "Being the man who cured AIDS" others have found the same facts about the desease so all his efforts at patenting something that should be public knowledge have been in vain anyway.

About Africa: No American company will provide a simple-elegant solution to Africa while the world is watching cuz they're selling a complex, highly toxic innefective solution for A LOT OF MONEY at home. How do you sell AZT at thousands of dollars a dose when there's a cheap and more effective answer being praised by Koffi Annan?

The answer is this: Someone has to buck up and decide to do the right thing. An entrepreneur must step foreward and found a company in Kenya to manufacture the generic drugs for the simple solution. Someone has to take it all out into the light.

There is a simple answer. There are a lot of myths out there among even the scientific community about HIV. THIS MUST STOP.

HMOs and USA drug companies are the money changers at the steps of health care. There are many techniques and technologies being ignored in medicine because they make less money than the existing fallacies. The blind trust people have for their health care providers is not only dangerously irresponsible but dammaging to the system. Doctors know it (they're getting screwed here too), Researchers know it and anyone who deals in HMO contracts knows it.


I am by no means suggesting that current research is invalid no the intentions of researchers ingenuine, I'm saying it's time to get off our collective ass. Research does no good if it never gets out of the lab.

[macktheknife]

Well, back in middle school (early 90s), my friends kept deriding my decision to use a Mac, calling it "gay" and a "toy" among other things given its user-friendly interface and slick design. They proudly boasted how they were tapping away at their DOS beige boxes, as if needless suffering was a requisite to prove their masculinity.

But of course, we all know where those guys ended doing--they all converted en masse to Windows 95, which was practically a copycat version of the OS they once derided as "gay." Now these guys will probably boast how they have figured out how to work or debug Windows NT or 2000, never questioning why their OS should crash so much in the first place. So my opinion is that a lot of guys apparently believe that it is "macho" to use the crappy, crash-prone software. Women, on the other hand, just use what sense.

Well, that's my two cents. I'm a straight guy, so I might not know what I'm talking about.

[jefhatfield]

i have a friend who hates gui and the mouse, so he is strapped with 8088's and post vacuum tube stuff for the us govt and he has a state of the art, for the defense dept, 486, so he is very protective of it

he teaches programming and multimedia and scientific rendereing of numbers is not in the curriculum where he teaches so the whole system...military, civil service, and contractors, could afford to live in a pre-widows 98 environment which they created with hundreds of millions of dollars and the democrats are not willing to spend on due to the fact that it is foreign policy related and the republicans won't spend on because why fix it if it aint broke mentality

of the three military bases in the area, one has no computers, one has no pentium 3s, and the other ie dedicated to programming and thus will never have the need to have anything over 100 mhz...being a techie i know that some programmming needs horsepower, but not the military proproetary type

one officer i know who graduated from one of these bases told me he used to carry a slide rule on his belt and the funny thing is, in the civilian world, slide rules were replaced by calculators...but if the us government cannot find a best provider of something like calculators, then by committee, they will have a standoff and end up not buying anything at all


...and try to convince either the democrats or republicans on capitol hill, lawyers by trade as opppsed to techies, to give and constantly resupply literally millions of employees and service people with computers then one can see the root of the problem

now i am way off topic but these are some of my gripes having been a computer guy for the defense department