Looking for a Sports car. Help.

[Fearless Leader]

Well i've been looking for a sports/sporty car and have come down to a couple and can't choose.

1. Fun to drive
2. Reliable
3. and well the safer the better.

Thats mainly what I'm looking for. My price range is anout to 26000 no more though (cheaper the better).

Could any of you put some input on these cars or recomend another.

Lexus Is 250 rwd manual. (I have a discount on this one to make it 26000 and it mine)
Mazada RX-8

A small part of the time I will have two other passengers but mainly just me. (which really sucks cause I test drove a Mazada Miata (2 seater) that thing was fun). So any help would be greatly appreciated.

[edesignuk]

Honda S2000. Used if necessary for your budget.

^ nuts, just noticed you needed 4 seats.

[Fearless Leader]

Honda S2000. Used if necessary for your budget.

^ nuts, just noticed you needed 4 seats.

that was going to be in there (i even typed it) but the 4 seats is a real killer.

[scotthayes]

Alfa Romeo Brera

[edesignuk]

Alfa Romeo BreraHe said reliable :p

[bartelby]

He said reliable :p

Watch it!!:rolleyes:

[Jay42]

I have a subaru WRX, and I am pretty happy with it. The turbo boxer engine is a blast to drive and AWD gives it tons of grip in the corners. It is affordable, safe, and has been reliable. The interior is definitely not up to par with other more expensive sports cars, and there is some serious turbo lag to contend with but overall, I really like it. Plus it gets decent milage.

[scotthayes]

He said reliable :p

they are... Every now and then.

but at least they look good when you are waiting for the RAC or AA.

What about a Golf GTi or used Audi S4

[twoodcc]

i say either the mazda rx-8, or the scion tC and save some money

[mkrishnan]

i say either the mazda rx-8, or the scion tC and save some money

The Scion tC seems like a very nice car overall but it seems much more in the balanced range than in the sports car range. I personally don't care for anything "sporty" that is too closely associated with Toyota, although that's just me. The IS250 doesn't honestly seem that bad, although I don't think it'd ever be my top pick in its segment.

The Mini is a very different kind of sporty -- the go kart sort of experience, but it's definitely very fun to drive, and as long as no one involved is too far over 6' tall, seating four is doable (I'm comfortable at 6' in the backseat of a Mini, as long as the person in front of me isn't pushed too far back... although I'm fairly thin also). I haven't been paying attention recently to see if they resolved their build quality issues or not. I also don't know if it's become over-saturated where you live.

The new version of the WRX sounds intriguing, although I have not driven it.

I'd consider the Miata the most fun of anything discussed in the thread so far, but understandably, it's out.

One thing to think about might be TCO also. The RX-8 gets rather poor fuel economy, and probably is fairly aggressively priced for insurance. There's another area where something like the Mini, or any of the other cars that are more sporty sedans or hatchbacks than "sports cars" might do better (not to mention that the Mini is cheaper to begin with). I rather imagine that anything with much more than 200 HP is going to get fairly high insurance premiums though.

[puckhead193]

I'd say go with the IS. Can't be lexus reliably and service. Plus i always wanted an IS (espcially the new IS-F:D)

[mahashel]

I'm in the same boat.. will be looking to replace my trusty ol' Jetta in the next 6-8 months. <30k range

--Took an RX-8 on a test drive. It was super fun, but had to keep the engine wrapped up more than I'm accustomed to. Also, the interior fit & finish is abysmal compared to a VW. (why is it that only europeans seem able to build a high-quality cabin experience?)
--Miata is a tad small, since I do have stuff to haul around from time to time (not really any more than 1 passenger). The deal-breaker is that my dealer didn't have any of the higher-performance old Mazdaspeed variety. That'd be the only way I'd buy that car.
--Drove the Mini Cooper S. Not as quick as I'd like (I'm high-altitude, so maybe that did it in?) and I thought it felt cheap. (ie: leaning hard on the door causes it to flex a bit.. eeeek!) Thing cornered like a dream and could stop on a dime though. :cool:
--WRX isn't really an option to me. They're fast, AWD makes for great handling even on slick roads, but the interior seems cheap and I think they're ugly as sin.
--Another option is a Mustang. They're fun cars, technically hold 4 people, and fairly reliable. They get rotten mileage and are death on a slick road though.
--Didn't occur to me to look into Lexus. Guess I just assumed I couldn't afford one. Same with the Honda S2000. :rolleyes:

Not much help, I know, since I've not finished my analysis on this yet. Will keep you posted as I drive more the cars in this category.
I guess I had boiled my options down to an RX-8 or a VW GTI.

[skinnylegs]

I test drove a Mazada Miata (2 seater) that thing was funI'm assuming you are a female? :p

[jayb2000]

Crash test results:
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/earliermodels.aspx?class=40
http://www.safercar.gov

Doing a quick search on AutoTrader (http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/searchresults.jsp?num_records=&search_lang=en&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&search_type=both&distance=0&address=04102&marketZipError=false&style_flag=2&body_style=COUPE&make=&start_year=1981&end_year=2008&min_price=20000&max_price=27000&transmission=&engine=&drive=&doors=&fuel=&max_mileage=&color=&keywords_display=&sort_type=priceDESC&body_code=2&certified=&advanced=&default_sort=priceDESC&awsp=false&keywordsrep=&keywordsfyc=)showed lots of coupes (new and used) from 20-27k.

BMW, Audi, Lexus, Infinity, Subaru, etc.

You could also look at Mustang's, Chargers, Civic Si, etc.

Define "sport" car. Do you want zippy and quick to turn or fast off the line, etc.

I have heard the Mazdaspeed 3 is fun, fast, safe.

[mkrishnan]

I'm assuming you are a female? :p

Have you ever driven one? With a manual transmission? It's a lot more fun than you give it credit for. Look at the Miata series' history in racing also. It's nothing to be ashamed of.

EDIT: ^^ speaking of my love for Mazda, I'm still sad that I never got any kind of variant of a Protege5, although I drove them pretty extensively. Such a wonderful car. I haven't been 100% satisfied with my Mazda6 -- in part because of some cost sacrifices while in grad school (I bought a used one, so I had to go back to steel wheels, to which I'd gotten unaccustomed, and also mine lacks ABS and ESP...sigh), but I still have a very large soft spot for the company overall.

[iGav]

Something from the '80's with a great hulking turbo.

[bigandy]

--Another option is a Mustang. They're fun cars, technically hold 4 people, and fairly reliable. They get rotten mileage and are death on a slick road though.

i notice how you left 'fast' off ;) :p

[carlgo]

Lots of good choices mentioned here. This is really a golden age for choice. Almost every company makes good sporty cars in both two and four seat configurations. I really like the later style Is250/350. I borrowed one and broke my over-the-grade record without even trying. Very nice interior also. I am not so fond of the original IS model. Nothing beats Lexus for reliability, service and resale.

No new Alfas in the US now. I had a 69 Duetto that was fabulous and very reliable, thanks to me and not the dealer.

A used BMW is another option. The certified ones have a good warranty.

I am only a few hundred thou short of that new 622 hp front engine v12 Ferrari. Red only, please.

[twoodcc]

the new V6 toyota camry is a quick car now also. 0-60 in 6.1 seconds or whatever....and they don't look too bad either. just a thought.

and for those who love mazda, what about a 1995 rx-7?

[mahashel]

I'm assuming you are a female? :p

LOL
Note I did not vouch for the Miata's "macho factor". :p
I really like the look of the Mazdaspeed Miatas with all the chrome trimmings and alloys. It *almost* looks like a guy's car.
((and I am male. Should I get some counseling for considering a Miata? Is there a "Male Miatas Anonymous"?)) :D

i notice how you left 'fast' off

A buddy of mine has a new Mustang GT. It's a really "quick" car. Doesn't seem to have the higher top speed of something like the RX8 or WRX, but it does have a ton of zip. (which he pays for at the pump every couple of days)

Oh, and I realized that I seem attached to the GTI, but didn't list my rationale. I have the 1.8T Jetta, which I love dearly, but it's more of a passenger car (hence the 4 doors). The ride is squishy and the turbo lag can get annoying. The GTI I've driven seemed to address most of these things. The ride was much stiffer and the turbo lag seemed a bit less annoying considering the new GTI is a lighter car with a slightly larger engine (2.0l). The VW interior is also a plus. :D

[edesignuk]

Carrera GT.Did you read the read, or are you being "funny"?

[Naimfan]

How about a used E46 M3?

[twoodcc]

how could i forget the Infinniti G35 Coupe?

[iGav]

The GTI I've driven seemed to address most of these things.

The Golf GT (Twincharger) is a much more impressive car/engine combination IMHO.

Whilst lacking the outright performance of the GTi, day-to-day flexibility and performance is much more accessible. You'd have to really exercise the GTi to not look silly in comparison.

[ErikCLDR]

how could i forget the Infinniti G35 Coupe?

x2. The G35 is a great car.

I would say s2000 but your 4 seat need is a killer

[D0ct0rteeth]

How about a used E46 M3?


I used to own one of these. Great car.

[quagmire]

The Holden Monaro. Or as we yanks like to call it, the Pontiac GTO. I am sure you can get one for cheap if you look hard enough on dealer lots for one. I would also 2nd the recommendation of an E46 BMW. Great little cars. Fun to drive and Lexus doesn't go together. :p Lexus and reliable, maybe, but fun to drive? Just like every Toyota product, it is a hell no. Toyota's lost the fun to drive status when the Supra was killed along with the Celica, etc.

[Counterfit]

LOL
Note I did not vouch for the Miata's "macho factor". :p
I really like the look of the Mazdaspeed Miatas with all the chrome trimmings and alloys. It *almost* looks like a guy's car.
((and I am male. Should I get some counseling for considering a Miata? Is there a "Male Miatas Anonymous"?)) :D

As long as it's not pink (http://lr.ytrewq.org/gtf/content/DSC_2317_large.html), you should be fine. (Yes, a guy drives that. GTF = George The Fierce.
the new V6 toyota camry is a quick car now also. 0-60 in 6.1 seconds or whatever....and they don't look too bad either. just a thought.

You're right, they don't look too bad, they look like ****. :p And the Camry will NEVER EVER be a sports car.
I'll second a recommendation on a WRX. You should probably be able to find an 07 nearby still. The interior may feel/look "cheap", but everything is laid out very well, which is more than you can say for some cars with fancy dashes.

[twoodcc]

You're right, they don't look too bad, they look like ****. :p And the Camry will NEVER EVER be a sports car.
I'll second a recommendation on a WRX. You should probably be able to find an 07 nearby still. The interior may feel/look "cheap", but everything is laid out very well, which is more than you can say for some cars with fancy dashes.

riight, and that's why it's in nascar :rolleyes:

[twistedlegato]

4 doors eh?

Infiniti G37 or a used G35 (they might even still have some new ones at a dealer).

If you really want to splurge i suggest an Aston Martin DB9;)


EDIT: DARN! Someone else already suggested the Infiniti :(

[FrankBlack]

I have a subaru WRX, and I am pretty happy with it. The turbo boxer engine is a blast to drive and AWD gives it tons of grip in the corners. It is affordable, safe, and has been reliable. The interior is definitely not up to par with other more expensive sports cars, and there is some serious turbo lag to contend with but overall, I really like it. Plus it gets decent milage.

Seconded, although I did trade in my '03 WRX for an '08 Legacy GT in July.
You'd find the WRX to be quite satisfactory in the performance department.

[gauchogolfer]

Not sure if this has been suggested already, but take a look at the Mazda3 Mazdaspeed. Two friends of mine have these, and they are a blast to drive. 260+ HP in a little car like that is great, plus you've got the 5-door for space. Nothing but good news on them from my experience.

[Rodimus Prime]

Not sure if this has been suggested already, but take a look at the Mazda3 Mazdaspeed. Two friends of mine have these, and they are a blast to drive. 260+ HP in a little car like that is great, plus you've got the 5-door for space. Nothing but good news on them from my experience.

Yeah but I have also read plenty of reports of the Mazda3 speed ripping its engine mounts. But other wise good reviews.

Another car to look at is the Altima SE-R. Fun car to drive and plenty of room.

[pseudobrit]

riight, and that's why it's in nascar :rolleyes:

Even I'd pay to see a V6 Camry in a NASCAR race.

No racecar in the NASCAR series has anything whatsoever to do with the consumer vehicles they're named after. Even the headlights are decals.

[Fearless Leader]

well this thread is great. A little more info on myself. I'm 6'4'' 200lbs, I'm a big guy. I had a vw on the list for a while but they've just got horrid reliability reviews. I dont fit in the scion Tc. (It's strange. The miata i fit fine and its smaller on paper, then the scion. i think)

edit: looked at the wrx sti. what the hell is that on the back? is that a joke?

[quagmire]

riight, and that's why it's in nascar :rolleyes:

Guess the Impala is a sports car, the Fusion, and Avenger right? I mean they're in Nascar. Wait nope they're not. The engine, the frame, etc has ZERO shared components with the stock vehicles. Try again.

PS: I would pay as well to see a V6 Camry race in Nascar. The thing will probably understeer a lot because of its front weight bias being FWD and all. Plus it probably won't shift into 2nd or 6th gear either......

[Cassie]

Lexus and reliable, maybe, but fun to drive? Just like every Toyota product, it is a hell no. Toyota's lost the fun to drive status when the Supra was killed along with the Celica, etc.

To each his own.

Personally, I suggest a Ford Mustang, but that's just what I would get.

[danny_w]

Despite the apparent reputation on this board, everybody that I know that owns a Miata is a guy, and I know several. I've never driven one, but understand that they are pure fun, esp. if you liked the old English roadsters.

[Rodimus Prime]

Despite the apparent reputation on this board, everybody that I know that owns a Miata is a guy, and I know several. I've never driven one, but understand that they are pure fun, esp. if you liked the old English roadsters.

I agree there they are a blast to drive. Biggest problem with them is they just are way to small. I personally do not fit in them very well at all.

[gauchogolfer]

Yeah but I have also read plenty of reports of the Mazda3 speed ripping its engine mounts. But other wise good reviews.



There was actually a recall on them to replace a bolt that had too much 'wiggle room' on it. So, that will hopefully be not an issue for the OP.

Check them out.

[phungy]

Now that the G37S are out, I'd suggest a G35 coupe and bargain down to 26k.

The Lexus IS look amazing but the 250 is weak sauce (told from owners themselves). The IS350 is out of your range right there but that's only if you're into performance..

If you'd really like a fun car, I recommend the Scion tC which is about $17k. You'll have plenty of dough left over to slap on lowering springs, sway bars and better tires to make driving even more fun! I wouldn't bother with performance because how often will you be using the max hp/torque? I barely go over 3.5k rpms each day
- Plus its a 4 seater! I've gotten many comments on how roomy the rear seats are and its made from Toyota so reliable is definitely a plus there.
- With ~10k left over you'll have no trouble adding mods. Choose suspension over performance first.

EDIT:
Just read you don't fit into a tC...bummer :\

[CHROMEDOME]

Mazdaspeed3

Fast, 4 door with hatchback, really fast, mazda reliable, and its fast.

[sysiphus]

Find yourself a (probably used/certified preowned) Volvo S60R. No joke. 300hp with a nice big turbo, AWD, Brembo brakes, yet looks nice enough from the outside that it's a total sleeper car on the freeway (goood for avoiding tickets), and has the best seats in any car on this side of 100k. Plus, one of the safest cars in the business. If the R is out of your pricerange or you can't find one in your area (they were discontinued for this model year), consider a T5 instead...still plenty of fun with 257hp.

[iGav]

A little more info on myself. I'm 6'4'' 200lbs, I'm a big guy.

Shame about the 4 seat thing, I was just about to suggest a Mk1 Lotus Elise, 200lbs wouldn't be a problem, your height maybe would though... you'd have to try one, depends on if you're more leggy than body. ;)

How about a Mitsubishi Lancer GTA/Evolution 6/7? much better cars than Subaru's. ;)

[janitorC7]

i cannot say enough good things about the rx8 it actually feels like YOURE driving a car

[Abstract]

Despite the apparent reputation on this board, everybody that I know that owns a Miata is a guy, and I know several.

Meh, does it matter? Guys at MacRumours don't seem to mind Mini Coopers, and yet most guys think it's a gay hairdresser's car.

[sysiphus]

Meh, does it matter? Guys at MacRumours don't seem to mind Mini Coopers, and yet most guys think it's a gay hairdresser's car.

For that matter, who gives a rip if it does have an image as a gay/girly car?
I'm as straight as a, well, really straight thing, but I'd still love to have a Miata or Mini...because it's a fun car!

[twoodcc]

Even I'd pay to see a V6 Camry in a NASCAR race.

No racecar in the NASCAR series has anything whatsoever to do with the consumer vehicles they're named after. Even the headlights are decals.

Guess the Impala is a sports car, the Fusion, and Avenger right? I mean they're in Nascar. Wait nope they're not. The engine, the frame, etc has ZERO shared components with the stock vehicles. Try again.

PS: I would pay as well to see a V6 Camry race in Nascar. The thing will probably understeer a lot because of its front weight bias being FWD and all. Plus it probably won't shift into 2nd or 6th gear either......

all i'm saying is that someone said earlier about how the Camry would never be affliated with being a "sports car". that's one premise against him.

but i think the 0-60 in 6.1 seconds should speak for itself.....no matter what "car" it is

[KenAllen07]

E36 M3 :D...Can pick those up on ebay for say $10,000. They'll go up hills sideways.

[Fearless Leader]

wow I even get to learn about what a realmans' car is, and how a camry is or isn't a sports/sporty car.
</sarcasm>

The Rx8 is hard to beat, I'm taking it for a testdrive next Wed.

As for if the car is girly or manly, I really don't care. (As long as its not a Bug:p i just dont like that car, except for the super beetles).

As to Cassie, It would have been on my list but The other two passengers unfortunately have a say in this as it could be there first car in the future, and they really don't like the way it looks. (It really sucks. One of my friends has the shelby gt500 that thing was fast)

[twoodcc]

wow I even get to learn about what a realmans' car is, and how a camry is or isn't a sports/sporty car.
</sarcasm>

The Rx8 is hard to beat, I'm taking it for a testdrive next Wed.

As for if the car is girly or manly, I really don't care. (As long as its not a Bug:p i just dont like that car, except for the super beetles).


well, you know, gotta stand my ground ;)

but anyways, go for the RX-8. yeah, you do see a lot of girls driving it, but a girl can drive any car.

[mahashel]

I'd definitely recommend the RX8, at least for a testdrive.
The suicide-style back doors are a really neat feature, and might be just what you need if you're going to be putting people in the back of a sports car. It's a rare gimmick that you just might get a lot of good out of.
Just remember (and the salesman may remind you a dozen times, like he did for me) to keep the motor revved up pretty high. It's a wicked ride, but you really gotta keep that tiny rotary wrapped up to get the "sports car" feel out of it. My Jetta turbo seemed to have more low-RPM torque than the RX8. lol

As for the reservations about VW reliability. I think it's luck of the draw.
Personally, I was turned off by VW's reliability at first, considering all the horrible things I've read online and whatnot. Horror stories of people taking their v-dubs back to the shop every couple weeks. I still somehow ended up in a Jetta, and the thing has been a dream. No problems at all (aside from needing to replace the battery after having a brain-fart while installing my sub amp, which resulted in some impromptu welding) :eek:
Thus, a GTI may still be in the cards for me. I can totally understand your hesitance though.

[iGav]

It's a wicked ride, but you really gotta keep that tiny rotary wrapped up to get the "sports car" feel out of it.

Which is its greatest problem... you either cane it everywhere or be made to look silly by London buses. :p

[quagmire]

all i'm saying is that someone said earlier about how the Camry would never be affliated with being a "sports car". that's one premise against him.

but i think the 0-60 in 6.1 seconds should speak for itself.....no matter what "car" it is

For those who affiliate the Camry as being a sports car because it is in Nascar need to have their head examined. Because as both of us have said, the Nascar Camry and stock Camry have one thing in common: the name. The engines are different( Nascar is OHV), frame(RWD), etc. Sure 0-60 in 6.1 is decent for a family sedan. Then again the Tundra and Sierra Denali are a few tenths behind and is far more impressive then a lighter family sedan. But, it doesn't make the Camry a sports car or the Tundra or Sierra Denali a sports truck. [/end hijack of thread]

[Kamera RAWr]

Ok, since I've read this whole thread and didn't see it, so... I'm going to recommend an old favorite of mine. A 1993+ Toyota Supra, turbo of course. :D

[mahashel]

The Golf GT (Twincharger) is a much more impressive car/engine combination IMHO.

Whilst lacking the outright performance of the GTi, day-to-day flexibility and performance is much more accessible. You'd have to really exercise the GTi to not look silly in comparison.

Sounds like a nice vehicle, but I don't see it on the VW website. Is this yet *another* awesome car that we yanks get screwed out of? :rolleyes:
The only "Golf" options offered by VW-USA are GTi, Rabbit, and R32 (which are obscenely hard to find and I've heard mixed reviews about).

[twoodcc]

For those who affiliate the Camry as being a sports car because it is in Nascar need to have their head examined. Because as both of us have said, the Nascar Camry and stock Camry have one thing in common: the name. The engines are different( Nascar is OHV), frame(RWD), etc. Sure 0-60 in 6.1 is decent for a family sedan. Then again the Tundra and Sierra Denali are a few tenths behind and is far more impressive then a lighter family sedan. But, it doesn't make the Camry a sports car or the Tundra or Sierra Denali a sports truck. [/end hijack of thread]

whoa, hold up. let's think about this for a second. i said that was one reason. there is a lot in a name. the current camry, especially compared to the past ones, is more "sporty". you say 6.1 seconds is "decent" for a family sedan. isn't every sedan for a family? or could be.

this thing has 268 horsepower, gets what, almost 30 mpg highway (and i'm not even looking up the stats, this is from memory, you can check if you want). name me another "family sedan" with that? what, the honda accord that just came out? clearly they copied the camry, and the camry is still faster.

you take a look at the v6 camry with the body kit and dual exhaust, it's quite nice

here is a pic:
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/2/web/2678000-2678999/2678228_81_full.jpg

[twistedlegato]

No one really like my suggestion of the DB9 now did they?

Anyways, have you seen the Altima coupe (if the Infiniti is to much)? They are quite nice.

[twoodcc]

No one really like my suggestion of the DB9 now did they?

Anyways, have you seen the Altima coupe (if the Infiniti is to much)? They are quite nice.

yeah i forgot about the new Altima coupe. i would recommend that as well (but i like the Infiniti better)

[quagmire]

whoa, hold up. let's think about this for a second. i said that was one reason. there is a lot in a name. the current camry, especially compared to the past ones, is more "sporty". you say 6.1 seconds is "decent" for a family sedan. isn't every sedan for a family? or could be.

this thing has 268 horsepower, gets what, almost 30 mpg highway (and i'm not even looking up the stats, this is from memory, you can check if you want). name me another "family sedan" with that? what, the honda accord that just came out? clearly they copied the camry, and the camry is still faster.

you take a look at the v6 camry with the body kit and dual exhaust, it's quite nice

here is a pic:
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/2/web/2678000-2678999/2678228_81_full.jpg

Eh. Sure the Camry is more sportier designed then the last gen. Then again Toyota didn't do much in the design. Take the front design theme of Mazda and take the Lexus rear end, BOOM you got the new Camry. In an uglier fashion( though looks are subjective). How could Honda copy the Camry when there was only 1 year between them? Please tell me how an auto company can reengineer parts in 1 years time to the quality standards of the automaker? My 2007 Saturn Aura XR does 0-60 in 5.9( Road&Track (http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=5045)). :D Oh and you can't count it as a point if the point is invalid. And the Nascar point is invalid. Doesn't matter what people think what determines whether a car is a sports car. People think GM and Ford products are POS's because of what they made 20 years ago, does it make it true now? No. There is a difference between reality and perception.

[iGav]

Sounds like a nice vehicle, but I don't see it on the VW website. Is this yet *another* awesome car that we yanks get screwed out of? :rolleyes:

Yeah, I didn't realise that Fearless was U.S. based, whoopsie. :p

It's a small capacity (1.4) engine, but twincharged by a super & turbocharger, so it's a glorious juxtaposition of contradictions.

It kind of drives like a long stroke, large capacity petrol engine, with instant low-end torque courtesy of the supercharger, but with the top end of a buzzy turbo'd 2 litre.

It's only fractionally slower against the clock than the GTi, but the performance is accessible all the time, so you'd have to really wind the GTi up to keep up... whilst the GT would almost be the epitome of serenity in comparison.

It's a remarkable little engine, it's a massive shame that it didn't exist when Audi was still producing the A2... because that would've equated to somewhere in the region of 170bhp/per ton. :eek: :D

Here's a review of it (http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=39994&pg=2&vf=0).

And another one (http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/driving/features/article606625.ece) too, though I disagree with him about the "consistently annoying hesitancy" I didn't notice any, it was a case of press it and it just... goes.

[ErikCLDR]

whoa, hold up. let's think about this for a second. i said that was one reason. there is a lot in a name. the current camry, especially compared to the past ones, is more "sporty". you say 6.1 seconds is "decent" for a family sedan. isn't every sedan for a family? or could be.

this thing has 268 horsepower, gets what, almost 30 mpg highway (and i'm not even looking up the stats, this is from memory, you can check if you want). name me another "family sedan" with that? what, the honda accord that just came out? clearly they copied the camry, and the camry is still faster.

you take a look at the v6 camry with the body kit and dual exhaust, it's quite nice

here is a pic:


ugh. I believe he was looking for a sports car, not the most common sedan in the US with some flares. Part of having a sports car is that it is somewhat rare, sporty, and has some class to it. Ok so its pretty fast in a strait line, but is it really that fun to drive?

[twoodcc]

Eh. Sure the Camry is more sportier designed then the last gen. Then again Toyota didn't do much in the design. Take the front design theme of Mazda and take the Lexus rear end, BOOM you got the new Camry. In an uglier fashion( though looks are subjective). How could Honda copy the Camry when there was only 1 year between them? Please tell me how an auto company can reengineer parts in 1 years time to the quality standards of the automaker? My 2007 Saturn Aura XR does 0-60 in 5.9( Road&Track (http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=5045)). :D Oh and you can't count it as a point if the point is invalid. And the Nascar point is invalid. Doesn't matter what people think what determines whether a car is a sports car. People think GM and Ford products are POS's because of what they made 20 years ago, does it make it true now? No. There is a difference between reality and perception.

toyota didn't do much in the design? they own Lexus, if you didn't know. and yes, looks are subjective. but you can't say that the pic i just posted isn't "sporty".

well look at the Accord. it has the exact same horsepower as the camry. it basically has the exact same everything, except a few more inches of space. i'd call that copying. if the shoe fits....

how is the Nascar point invalid? you telling me a name means nothing? look at the new Dodge Charger.....clearly using that name. does Mustang not mean anything?

doesn't matter what people think is a sports car? that's all that matters! if it's a sports car to you, then it's a sports car, case closed. it's all relative.

i do believe Ford and GM still aren't up to par with the toyotas and hondas. you really think so? yeah, they might have improved some, but i wouldn't buy one.

ugh. I believe he was looking for a sports car, not the most common sedan in the US with some flares. Part of having a sports car is that it is somewhat rare, sporty, and has some class to it. Ok so its pretty fast in a strait line, but is it really that fun to drive?

you can say that, but i don't see cars looking like the pic i just posted everywhere. yeah, there are tons of old camrys and stuff, but not many that look like that.

and since when does "sporty" = "rare"?

[quagmire]

toyota didn't do much in the design? they own Lexus, if you didn't know. and yes, looks are subjective. but you can't say that the pic i just posted isn't "sporty".

well look at the Accord. it has the exact same horsepower as the camry. it basically has the exact same everything, except a few more inches of space. i'd call that copying. if the shoe fits....

how is the Nascar point invalid? you telling me a name means nothing? look at the new Dodge Charger.....clearly using that name. does Mustang not mean anything?

doesn't matter what people think is a sports car? that's all that matters! if it's a sports car to you, then it's a sports car, case closed. it's all relative.

i do believe Ford and GM still aren't up to par with the toyotas and hondas. you really think so? yeah, they might have improved some, but i wouldn't buy one.

Yes, I know they own Lexus, but that rear end design was already put in place in a Lexus. Toyota didn't have to do much to think of a rear design for the new Camry. Same with the Mazda inspired front.

Oh wow. So same power is copying now? So basically Honda is putting Toyota engines in the Accords? Shame I guess that Honda mates a 5 speed auto to the Toyota engine eh? :rolleyes:

A name does mean something. But, the Camry being in Nascar isn't a valid point for arguing the Camry is a sports car. If the Nascar Camry shared the engine and is maybe 50&#37; stock, then maybe you can argue it, but it shares 0% to the stock Camry. I won't argue the Impala, Fusion, and Avenger is a sports car either. BTW, the Charger and Mustang got their reputation from what they could do STOCK. Not something that shares the Mustang name.

I can say GM is reliable( for me at least) because I have owned 4 GM products and had no major problems with them. A 1996 Suburban( no problems), 2002 Suburban( no problems so far), 2006 Equinox( no problems so far), and 2007 Aura XR( no problems so far). Have they had their quirks? Yes, but every car has its quirks even Toyota's and Honda's. Just ask the new Tundra owners with bent tailgates, bad transmissions, and bad camshafts. Same with the new Camry with the transmission refusing to shift into 2nd and 6th. My Aura's quirks have been relatively minor. Mostly software programing for the 6 speed auto. But, a ticking tach and a rattling liner in the sunroof( both TSB's) is the only other quirks I have had with it. That is what we all get for buying first MY products. What is your experience with GM?

[twoodcc]

Yes, I know they own Lexus, but that rear end design was already put in place in a Lexus. Toyota didn't have to do much to think of a rear design for the new Camry. Same with the Mazda inspired front.

Oh wow. So same power is copying now? So basically Honda is putting Toyota engines in the Accords? Shame I guess that Honda mates a 5 speed auto to the Toyota engine eh? :rolleyes:

A name does mean something. But, the Camry being in Nascar isn't a valid point for arguing the Camry is a sports car. If the Nascar Camry shared the engine and is maybe 50% stock, then maybe you can argue it, but it shares 0% to the stock Camry. I won't argue the Impala, Fusion, and Avenger is a sports car either. BTW, the Charger and Mustang got their reputation from what they could do STOCK. Not something that shares the Mustang name.

I can say GM is reliable( for me at least) because I have owned 4 GM products and had no major problems with them. A 1996 Suburban( no problems), 2002 Suburban( no problems so far), 2006 Equinox( no problems so far), and 2007 Aura XR( no problems so far). Have they had their quirks? Yes, but every car has its quirks even Toyota's and Honda's. Just ask the new Tundra owners with bent tailgates, bad transmissions, and bad camshafts. Same with the new Camry with the transmission refusing to shift into 2nd and 6th. My Aura's quirks have been relatively minor. Mostly software programing for the 6 speed auto. But, a ticking tach and a rattling liner in the sunroof( both TSB's) is the only other quirks I have had with it. That is what we all get for buying first MY products. What is your experience with GM?

well of course they will use things from Lexus in a Toyota, including engines. They are the same company. I'm still not so sure about the mazda thing.

I find it unusual to have the exact same size engine, and the exact same horsepower. You didn't see the new Tundra with the same specs as any other truck did you?

I still disagree. Having the camry name in nascar helps it become more "sporty". why else would they call it a camry then? it's marketing.

i'm glad you had a good experience from GM. I personally was raised in an anti-american-car home. my dad had several GM or Ford products, and had a poor experience. now we own all toyotas and basically no problems.

[Rapmastac1]

Do you want a unique sports car with enough space for five people and all of their stuff will fit in the trunk, breathing aloud with a v10 engine putting out a massive amount of horsepower. It's equaled between luxury and performance, with looks that just make you want to cry becuase you really want one.

I got one car for you...

http://sowiesonietleuk.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/maserati-quattroporte.jpg

Too bad it's a bit out of your price range, at about 100,000.00 USD new and about 80,000.00 USD used...

One can dream can't he? But it shows, just becuase a car has four doors, doesn't mean it can't do 0-60 in 4.6 seconds with a top speed of 200 mph!

Heck, my '95 Aurora does 170mph (thanks to a little help from a dealership friend, hehe) with a good 0-60 of 6 seconds, and it is gorgeous...

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/1306/p3090013yr4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/2703/p3090007ny9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/1546/p3090031lo2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/4070/pb080010ah4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

But, sports car is not the same in all eyes. Sure was cheap though, only paid 1800 for this car! Ah, but none of these are said contenders in your search...

[pseudobrit]

how is the Nascar point invalid? you telling me a name means nothing?

That is correct.

doesn't matter what people think is a sports car? that's all that matters! if it's a sports car to you, then it's a sports car, case closed. it's all relative...

Having the camry name in nascar helps it become more "sporty". why else would they call it a camry then? it's marketing.

Perception is not reality. A sports car is a sports car and nothing else is a sports car. The idea of a "sporty" car is pure marketing puff. You can take a Buick Regal, rebody it and slap a Ferrari badge on and it wouldn't be a sports car.

If the determination was left up to the mindset of the owner, every 17 year-old driving a Civic DX with a CF hood has a sports car.

[ErikCLDR]

i do believe Ford and GM still aren't up to par with the toyotas and hondas. you really think so? yeah, they might have improved some, but i wouldn't buy one.



you can say that, but i don't see cars looking like the pic i just posted everywhere. yeah, there are tons of old camrys and stuff, but not many that look like that.

and since when does "sporty" = "rare"?

I agree with you on that GM and Ford are on par with toyota and honda. Personally I think Honda has the best styling out of all of them. GM I think has good reliability, my dad owned 3 suburbans and never had an issues with them. I know plenty of people that stand by their fords. GM and Ford have stepped up to the plate but unfortunately it's their name at this point that I think is hurting them. Supposedly toyota's reliability is beginning to drop.

In my mind, a camry is a camry is a camry is a camry. Try to make it look "cool, sporty, etc" and it just looks stupid. Its a family sedan, its not going to be fun to drive like a real sports car.

Since when does sporty = rare... since when did I say that? I said a sports car is rare. Thats because a sports car is usually impractical and/or expensive so not that many people buy them. That is why a Toyota Camry is considered not a sports car. I should also mention the Camry has fwd, 4 doors, and an image of a just an average persons car.

How many S2000's, Porches, Z4's, etc driving around, not many. I live in New England so you see very few because of the climate, but I would be willing to bet there are a lot more Camrys in the world then there are true sports cars.

Really the definition of a sports car is a 2 door, 2 seater, with rear wheel drive. I suppose you can omit the 2 seater option but really, a sports car is only supposed to have two seats.

I think there needs to be a line drawn between sports car and sporty car.

[pseudobrit]

I think there needs to be a line drawn between sports car and sporty car.

A sports car has not been compromised by and gives the least amount of concession to comfort and daily usability. Sports cars are rare because no one wants to have to suffer with them, so they buy what should be considered a GT and call it a sports car.

[quagmire]

I agree with you on that GM and Ford are on par with toyota and honda. Personally I think Honda has the best styling out of all of them. GM I think has good reliability, my dad owned 3 suburbans and never had an issues with them. I know plenty of people that stand by their fords. GM and Ford have stepped up to the plate but unfortunately it's their name at this point that I think is hurting them. Supposedly toyota's reliability is beginning to drop.

He is saying GM and Ford is still not on par with Toyota and Honda. Anyway, it was bound to happen. You can not grow as fast as Toyota is growing and not expect quality problems. Will Toyota recover? Probably. But, what really disgusts me about Toyota is that they are hiding behind the Prius to mask up their latest gas guzzlers. Not to mention Toyota blames the driver for the problems of the car......

[walangij]

I own the new VW GTI and it is a very quick, every day sports car that is very quick with mods and even w/o mods and DSG. the 2.0T engine is bulletproof, won many awards in europe, QC is very high on this car. safe, reliable, fantastic sense of community (like MR), fun to drive, quick

The MS3 is also a good option, a lot snappier/faster. Fast, fun, reliability is improving!

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the 1 series coupe.
Those aside, if I were you I'd get the new BMW 1 series! OMG, the 135 is very fast and refined w/ a Twin turbo! but maybe a little more than you're willing to pay, the lower 128i is still quick, not slow at all. Should be around your range: 26k around abouts. http://images.motortrend.com/future/future_vehicles/112_0606_11z+2008_bmw_1_series+side_static.jpg
http://images.motortrend.com/future/future_vehicles/112_0606_07z+2008_bmw_1_series+rear.jpg
http://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/futurevehicles/new1?source=NEW1FVTOPNAV
brand spanking new, BMW quaility, fun to drive, fast

Also, the mini-cooper S is a FANTASTIC car to drive, super fun, insanely awesome suspension (can take corners better than some supercars). fun to drive, great community, quick, cute


There's a lot of options in your range, if you're looking for reliability then buy new, not a used car b/c especially with a "sports car" it was probably abused quite a lot in its hayday.


The RX-8's engine has had some problems, a friend owns one and one thing is that it sure does like to burn up oil like crazy, a quart every 1-2k miles. It's a nice car though, quick but not as fast as I expected it to be, interior is kinda not amazing too.

My brother's roomate in college last year had the IS RWD 250. I have to say it is a very nice car, fantastic interior trim and I love the styling, but it is not a car that's fast. It's kinda fun to drive, but it drives more like a family car then a sports car.

My suggestions:

Go to VW Dealer, test drive both the 6spd and DSG GTI.
Find Mazda dealer and test drive RX8 and MS3 if you can find a place that'll let you test drive one.
Go to Mini dealer, test drive Mini Cooper S.
Go to Toyota Dealer, test drive what people have suggested.
Go to Lexus Dealer, test drive IS250 RWD.
Check out BMW dealer about 1 series.
Go to Subaru Dealer, test drive WRX.

From there make your decision, I was told from a young age to always test drive multiple cars before making any conclusions or decisions.
You'll be in a better decision after driving all these cars in making your decision. When you buy a car, you should obviously be buying the car you want (and what the other 2 who have a say of course). To find out what you want, test drive, test drive, test drive cars that are in the same category as you're looking, even though you're not interested, will help you understand what you're looking for (and plus its fun!). If none of those catch your fancy, then I'd start to look at used cars.



BTW, German cars are not as "unreliable" as people say, they are just expensive to fix when things go awry which make these times more prominent in peoples minds.

[biturbomunkie]

but i think it all depends on how you define a "sports car." while the IS is nice to drive, i felt that the car is geared towards the luxury side (polished, yet boring) with the muted engine and all the electronic nannies. the saleswoman was actually bashing the "harshness" of the germans when i was test driving it. :rolleyes: but it's a lexus after all, and the quality is definitely there. if you want some luxury, how about a CPO CTS-V? it's the only caddy that i'd ever drive, debadge the car and it's a sleeper. though i can't remember how much those cost nowadays.

The Holden Monaro.

2nd on a CPO GTO, another sleeper w/ lots of interior space (except trunk) and you can actually seat four in this coupe. make sure to get an '05+, which has an LS2 engine w/ ~400 hp and ~400 lb-ft torque. the only things i don't like about the GTO are the dated platform (cruiser-like handling), possible strut rub and the rear spoiler. also, the car is pretty hard to launch with that much power (unless you get the 4-spd auto).

i don't usually recommend domestic cars, but another option is the RWD pontiac G8 V8, though a manual will not be out until much later in '08. rumor has it that GM is still trying to figure out how to shut off half of the engine when it's teamed w/ a manual.

as for imports, my votes go to legacy spec.B and mazdaspeed 6. both are reasonably priced considering they handle very well out of the box w/ many options. the only thing is that the 4-bangers lack torque until you rev the engine. (torque peak at 3.6k rpm for the spec.B and 3k rpm for the 6). the S60R is a similar offering from sweden. while it may not be as quick as a 335, M3, S4, or RS4 off the line, it's definitely more understated and total sleeper (did i mention i like sleepers? ;)) . with a little tweak, the S60R is quite a monster. there's a video showing how a modded S60R pulls away from an E46 convertible on the roll.

edit:

Do you want a unique sports car with enough space for five people and all of their stuff will fit in the trunk, breathing aloud with a v10 engine putting out a massive amount of horsepower. It's equaled between luxury and performance, with looks that just make you want to cry becuase you really want one.

I got one car for you...

http://sowiesonietleuk.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/maserati-quattroporte.jpg

Too bad it's a bit out of your price range, at about 100,000.00 USD new and about 80,000.00 USD used...

blah... the quattroporte is one of those ultimate trophy wife/husband's driving machines. if it's all about hauling and 0-60, i'd get a TBSS or GC SRT-8 for less than half the price and spend some money on mods. then invest the rest to get a nissan GT-R. and i'd probably still have some change left to mount a camera on the sleeper truck to capture that priceless moment of beating an euro "sports sedan," aka the "looks that just make you want to cry because you really want one." :cool:

[twoodcc]

Perception is not reality. A sports car is a sports car and nothing else is a sports car. The idea of a "sporty" car is pure marketing puff. You can take a Buick Regal, rebody it and slap a Ferrari badge on and it wouldn't be a sports car.

If the determination was left up to the mindset of the owner, every 17 year-old driving a Civic DX with a CF hood has a sports car.

i'm sorry, but prove yourself. define "sports car". you can't. it can be whatever anybody wants it to be

[twoodcc]

He is saying GM and Ford is still not on par with Toyota and Honda. Anyway, it was bound to happen. You can not grow as fast as Toyota is growing and not expect quality problems. Will Toyota recover? Probably. But, what really disgusts me about Toyota is that they are hiding behind the Prius to mask up their latest gas guzzlers. Not to mention Toyota blames the driver for the problems of the car......

you are right, Toyota is growing and the quality is slipping a little. but i think they are still great. i actually believe if you take care of a car, any car will last - for the most part. there are lemons.

but i have to disagree about the gas guzzlers. the new Tundra gets 20 mpg hwy with 381 horsepower. better than the old engine with only 270 horsepower, at only 14 (city)and 18 (hwy)mpg.

[mahashel]

I own the new VW GTI and it is a very quick, every day sports car that is very quick with mods and even w/o mods and DSG. the 2.0T engine is bulletproof, won many awards in europe, QC is very high on this car. safe, reliable, fantastic sense of community (like MR), fun to drive, quick
Ooooh.. You're not helping my GTi lust. :D
I've also read up on the twincharger that iGav mentioned earlier in the thread. Why can't the USA get this car as a compliment to the GTi? I'd love to take it for a spin.

My suggestions:
Go to VW Dealer, test drive both the 6spd and DSG GTI.
Find Mazda dealer and test drive RX8 and MS3 if you can find a place that'll let you test drive one.
Go to Mini dealer, test drive Mini Cooper S.
Go to Toyota Dealer, test drive what people have suggested.
Go to Lexus Dealer, test drive IS250 RWD.
Check out BMW dealer about 1 series.
Go to Subaru Dealer, test drive WRX.
From there make your decision, I was told from a young age to always test drive multiple cars before making any conclusions or decisions.
Hear! Hear!
The only car I'd add to that list is a Mustang. I don't think it's at the "high end" of the list of prospects by any means, but they are really nimble and powerful cars (for a domestic). Worth a shot, just for some more perspective if nothing else.
BTW, German cars are not as "unreliable" as people say, they are just expensive to fix when things go awry which make these times more prominent in peoples minds.
I second this.
I love my turbo Jetta. It is a frightening experience when paying the bill for the typical little maintenance issues that crop up, since european cars are expensive to fix. However, the number of necessary trips to the repair shop are *lower* that any of the domestics I've owned over the years.

As for the "what is a sports car" debate, I agree with the "sport vs. sporty" camp. Any car can be made "sporty". Some are more garish than others (Corolla S, anyone?). blech..
A true sports car is stereotypically uncomfortable, tiny, impractical, terrifyingly expensive to fix, and styled radically differently than the mainstream "get me from point A to point B" vehicles. Taking this definition of a sports car and making it all based on perspective does indeed make every teenager with a Geo Metro convinced they own a "sports car", which is completely ridiculous.
To me, there are three types of people in this debate:
1) people who drive a sports car
2) people who don't want a sports car
3) people who wished they drove a sports car. (they can make some pretty wild leaps of reason to cope with the fact that they don't actually currently drive a sports car)
I'm in camp #3. LOL :rolleyes:

[dpaanlka]

Be sure to check out the six speed Saab 9-3 (http://www.saabusa.com/saabjsp/93s/index.jsp) Aeros, which has been significantly redesigned this year. It will kill an IS 250. Don't know about an RX-8 but I believe those RX-8s are really low in the torque department. As for reliability... well my Saab just hit 132,000 miles and looks and runs spectacular, although it's a 9-5 not a 9-3.

88631

If you wait a few months the all wheel drive, 280 horse and 295 ft-lb version will be in the United States. It's getting great reviews in Europe.

http://www.newrossecho.ie/news/story.asp?j=27739&cat=motoring
http://www.canadiandriver.com/roadtest/08_9-3.htm

[phungy]

Just go all out and get the '08 Nissan GT-R :D:apple:

[walangij]

Ooooh.. You're not helping my GTi lust. :D
I've also read up on the twincharger that iGav mentioned earlier in the thread. Why can't the USA get this car as a compliment to the GTi? I'd love to take it for a spin.

I second this.
I love my turbo Jetta. It is a frightening experience when paying the bill for the typical little maintenance issues that crop up, since european cars are expensive to fix. However, the number of necessary trips to the repair shop are *lower* that any of the domestics I've owned over the years.


Sorry about the GTi lust, I love it, makes my boring drive everyday quite fun (especially when compared to the 04 accord and old buick park avenue I used to make the trip in lol). The Golf GT supercharged/turbocharged is a sweet car, wish they'd bring it over too!!!

For the sake of the OP, here's a compiled list of cars suggested minus all the definitions of what a sports car actually is and with some other suggestions and relative prices [some above what OP wants to spend] (taken from edmunds.com and KBB):


Audi A3 - 25.5k (same engine as GLI/GTI, 2.0 Turbo, but more refined interior)
BMW 1 Series -26k starting
Certified Pre-Owned CTS-V - anywhere between 30-40k
Certified Pre-Owned Pontiac GTO - anywhere 21-30K
New Pontiac G8 http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/02/08/036618.1-lg.jpg(coming very soon and beautiful for a domestic!) -27k
Ford Mustang (even though OP ruled out already) - 20k
New 2008 Accord V6 http://images.leftlanenews.com/content/2-2008-honda-accord-coupe-concept.jpg -23k
Lexus IS 250 RWD -26k
Mini Cooper S -21k
Mazda RX8 -27k
Mazdaspeed 3 -22k
Mazdaspeed 6 -28k
Nissan Altima Coupe - 19k
Nissan Sentra-R Spec V - 20k
Saab 9-3 Aero - 26K for base, as corrected by dpaanlka 36k for aero.
Subaru WRX -26k
Subaru Legacy GT - 29k, non turboed is 25k
Volkswagen GTI - 22K
Volkswagen GLI (throw this one in there, sedan version of GTI) - 24K
Volvo C30 - around 23k starting

Used list:

Mercedes C Class 04-06 (even some 07)- 20-30k
Used German cars in general 04-06 -20-30k for some very nice used cars


People want to add or edit go ahead, hope this helps.

[dpaanlka]

People want to add or edit go ahead, hope this helps.

The Saab 9-3 Aero will set you back about 36k, not 26k.

[Counterfit]

but i have to disagree about the gas guzzlers. the new Tundra gets 20 mpg hwy with 381 horsepower. better than the old engine with only 270 horsepower, at only 14 (city)and 18 (hwy)mpg.
Um, the Tundra with the 5.7L gets 14/18 on 2WD models. None of them show 20MPG highway. The Silverado 1500 gets 15/20 with both the 4.3L V6 and 5.3L V8 on 2WD models. That's with 315HP on the 5.3L.
as for imports, my votes go to legacy spec.B and mazdaspeed 6. both are reasonably priced considering they handle very well out of the box w/ many options. the only thing is that the 4-bangers lack torque until you rev the engine.

The spec.B has peak torque at 3.6kRPM.

[pseudobrit]

i'm sorry, but prove yourself. define "sports car". you can't. it can be whatever anybody wants it to be

You're right about that in a way. It can be whatever anyone wants it to be if they don't mind being wrong.

Sports cars:

88707

88709

[-hh]

Something else besides "What's a Sports Car?"

http://www.huntzinger.com/photo/2007/germany/land_speed(6964)r.jpg

... is that the OP (& responses) appear to be assuming that he's only going to own one car.

My toy car is an old Porsche 911...cost me under $20K and you can't argue that its not a sports car :D

However, its not my daily driver.

A daily driver needs to cope with wet days, cold days, snow, ice, misery...and be very reliable. For me personally, this means that I'm not going to drop any cute aftermarket Mods into my daily driver.

So when it comes to recreational automotive, there's got to be this safety net of what you're going to do when its necessary (versus "fun") to drive somewhere.

Next, there's going to be some elements of product choice that are generally emotional, but have had some basis somewhere - - just like how there's Mustang vs. Camaro camps, we can also see preferences for European (German) versus Japanese (versus XYZ), as there are some generalities regarding automotive design philosophies. These probably need to be sorted out before trying to narrow the list. Personally, my preference is for European, and the only recommendation I can make here is to jump NOW, because the 2008 prices were fixed on older {Dollar - Euro} exchange rates, and these cars are gong to be easily 10% more expensive next year.


-hh

[twoodcc]

Um, the Tundra with the 5.7L gets 14/18 on 2WD models. None of them show 20MPG highway. The Silverado 1500 gets 15/20 with both the 4.3L V6 and 5.3L V8 on 2WD models. That's with 315HP on the 5.3L.


Umm, i have seen a 2007 4x2 5.7L with the 6-speed transmission say on the sticker 20 mpg hwy. i saw it with my own eyes at the toyota dealership. give a link saying otherwise?

You're right about that in a way. It can be whatever anyone wants it to be if they don't mind being wrong.

Sports cars:


i know i'm right. you can call those sports cars if you want. but again, give me a definition of what a sports car is

[pseudobrit]

i know i'm right. you can call those sports cars if you want. but again, give me a definition of what a sports car is

It's the inverse of the pornography maxim: I can't define it, but I can tell you what isn't when I see it.

A Camry is not a sports car.

[ErikCLDR]

Sorry about the GTi lust, I love it, makes my boring drive everyday quite fun (especially when compared to the 04 accord and old buick park avenue I used to make the trip in lol). The Golf GT supercharged/turbocharged is a sweet car, wish they'd bring it over too!!!

For the sake of the OP, here's a compiled list of cars suggested minus all the definitions of what a sports car actually is and with some other suggestions and relative prices [some above what OP wants to spend] (taken from edmunds.com and KBB):


Audi A3 - 25.5k (same engine as GLI/GTI, 2.0 Turbo, but more refined interior)
BMW 1 Series -26k starting
Certified Pre-Owned CTS-V - anywhere between 30-40k
Certified Pre-Owned Pontiac GTO - anywhere 21-30K
New Pontiac G8(coming very soon and beautiful for a domestic!) -27k
Ford Mustang (even though OP ruled out already) - 20k
New 2008 Accord V6 -23k
Lexus IS 250 RWD -26k
Mini Cooper S -21k
Mazda RX8 -27k
Mazdaspeed 3 -22k
Mazdaspeed 6 -28k
Nissan Altima Coupe - 19k
Nissan Sentra-R Spec V - 20k
Saab 9-3 Aero - 26K for base, as corrected by dpaanlka 36k for aero.
Subaru WRX -26k
Subaru Legacy GT - 29k, non turboed is 25k
Volkswagen GTI - 22K
Volkswagen GLI (throw this one in there, sedan version of GTI) - 24K


People want to add or edit go ahead, hope this helps.

Is it ever worth buying a European car new? Buy a year old one and I bet you could find one in the $20's. I was at a Land Rover dealer where they had a $52,000 LR3 dropped down to $40,000 because it was a 2006 left over that was on display in the showroom and had 300 miles on it. $12,000!!

Anyways, my mom had a saab like 14 years ago- it was a 9000 turbo. It was a piece of crap. Tons of people have them around here and seem to love them. Parents are buying them for their kids. I know at least 5 kids under the age of 18 with saabs in my town. I've been in my friends 2003.5 9.5 2.3t and it was a pretty fun car.

[dpaanlka]

it was a 9000 turbo. It was a piece of crap.

I don't know if I mentioned but I have over 132,000 miles on my 2001 9-5 Aero and I love it its more reliable than any car me or my parents have owned in my entire life. I can't say enough about it.

[ErikCLDR]

I don't know if I mentioned but I have over 132,000 miles on my 2001 9-5 Aero and I love it its more reliable than any car me or my parents have owned in my entire life. I can't say enough about it.

That was before GM bought saab. I forgot to say how their reliability might be different.

[dpaanlka]

That was before GM bought saab. I forgot to say how their reliability might be different.

If that 9000 was a four cylinder, then it and my car have essentially the same engine... mine being somewhat enhanced, but still based on the old Saab H engine dating from the 70s.

[adroit]

give me a definition of what a sports car is

sure:

a small low car with a high-powered engine; usually seats two persons
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

A sports car is an automobile designed for performance driving. Most sports cars are rear-wheel drive, have two seats, two doors, and are designed for precise handling, acceleration, and aesthetics. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports car


A Camry is an automobile designed for moving groceries. All Camrys are front-wheel drive, have five seats, four doors, and are designed for soccer moms, retirees, and other people who can't afford sports cars.

In all seriousness all sports cars MUST have either rear or four wheel drive. That point is NOT up for discussion. As mentioned before, they must also be impractical enough to not be common. If you see one everyday, chances are it's not a sports car. Another thing that has been mentioned is that sporty does not equal sports car.

I have to admit, when I started reading your arguments that a Camry was a sports car, I thought you were kidding. You might as well argue the drifting performance of a minivan.

Oh, and bringing up Nascar doesn't help your case. yikes :eek:

[dpaanlka]

That point is NOT up for discussion.

I agree a Camry is a rather silly contender for a sports car, but if you're going to get all anal about it, I'll take this opportunity to speak on behalf of the OP and change his requirement to a sporting car, as per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_car, since he/she is unlikely to find a true sports car for $26,000.

Please forgive us all for mixing up sports car and sporting car.

[true777]

I second the BMW 1-series and the Audi A3 and would add to the list of recommendations a 2005 model Mercedes C230 or C320 sports coupe -- very spiffy and extremely reliable 4-seaters, and should be <20k by now.

Oh, and has noone suggested the new Volvo C30 (http://www.volvocars.us/models/c30/) yet?
$22,700 MSRP, turbo charger, very cool car.

[iGav]

Oh, and has noone suggested the new Volvo C30 (http://www.volvocars.us/models/c30/) yet?
$22,700 MSRP, turbo charger, very cool car.

I actually saw one of those for the first time a few weeks ago, I was quite impressed.

But it's been absolutely lambasted by the motoring press.

[twoodcc]

sure:


A Camry is an automobile designed for moving groceries. All Camrys are front-wheel drive, have five seats, four doors, and are designed for soccer moms, retirees, and other people who can't afford sports cars.

In all seriousness all sports cars MUST have either rear or four wheel drive. That point is NOT up for discussion. As mentioned before, they must also be impractical enough to not be common. If you see one everyday, chances are it's not a sports car. Another thing that has been mentioned is that sporty does not equal sports car.

I have to admit, when I started reading your arguments that a Camry was a sports car, I thought you were kidding. You might as well argue the drifting performance of a minivan.

Oh, and bringing up Nascar doesn't help your case. yikes :eek:

i guess i like to argue things that most people don't believe :rolleyes:

go back to the OP's first post. he says he wanted 4-doors. that's why i even brought up camry. "4-doors and reliable". based on that, doesn't get much better than the camry.

my point was that the camry has changed drastically, as far as looks and performance. and it has. i posted a pic for the new looks, and 6.1 seconds 0-60 isn't bad, i don't care who you think you are.

and being rare again is no argument for a sports car either. if you lookup the word rare, it doesn't say sports car. it's just that your real "sports cars" cost more, and so less people buy them.

[mahashel]

So here's a different kind of solution to this problem...

Buy a cheaper "sporty" car that is relatively inexpensive, and put a couple thousand dollars (money you saved by buying the cheaper car) into aftermarket performance upgrades.
I'm considering keeping my 1.8T Jetta, since I'll own it outright in a couple months, and begin putting money into upgrading it. No longer under warranty, so I'm not risking anything in that regard, and putting as much as 4-5K into it is cheaper than buying a new car. Perhaps not as good an investment, since performance parts don't really raise the resale value of a vehicle (and in some cases will actually lower it), but it is an option.
Example: buy an older V6 Honda Accord, a used Jetta, a new/used Scion tC, Mazda3, etc.. for <20K, then put 5K into performance upgrades.
I don't believe that this will in *ANY* way buy you a "sports car", but it just might be an attainable ticket into a ride with the level of performance you're hoping for, whilst maintaining the "daily driver" aspect of the vehicle.

Does anybody here have experience in this "tuner" sort of approach? I'd be interested in this kind of solution, myself, since I'm not sure I'm going to want another huge car payment so soon after finally getting my VW paid off. :o
Just my 16 cents. (this "weak dollar" crap sucks) :p

[dpaanlka]

Does anybody here have experience in this "tuner" sort of approach?

Yes... it leaves you with a fast car that feels cheap.

[twoodcc]

Yes... it leaves you with a fast car that feels cheap.

yep, that's a good way to put it ;)

[mahashel]

Yes... it leaves you with a fast car that feels cheap.

Probably because it IS cheap. lol :p

I've not gone down the tuner road yet, but am interested in hearing from other people who have. The OP wanted a fast car that will seat 4. Might be cheaper to buy a sport coupe and improve it, rather than putting out the big money for a stock sportier car that they'd have to somehow stuff 4 people into.
As for the "cheap" aspect, I can see how ricing-out an old Civic or equivalent could seem really flimsy; but tweaking an old Audi/VW, or improving a less expensive new car (like the tC), might offset the cheap sensation.

[wwooden]

I have to give my vote for the MazdaSpeed3. It beat out every car in it's class in most reviews; beat the GTI, Civic Si, etc. I have a Mazda3, not the speed and I love, I can't imagine what it would be like to have the extra 100hp. I'm tall, 6'1" 200lbs and I drive it comfortably. It can sit 4-5 but the back leg room is not the best, but it is compact car.

[Fearless Leader]

Well the mazdaspeed3 looks real good too. The only rx8 was just sold and when I inquired about when the next one would come in was, and I quote, "Sometime." :mad:

[twoodcc]

Well the mazdaspeed3 looks real good too. The only rx8 was just sold and when I inquired about when the next one would come in was, and I quote, "Sometime." :mad:

is there no where else you can go get one? they can't bring in one for you?

[mahashel]

Well the mazdaspeed3 looks real good too. The only rx8 was just sold and when I inquired about when the next one would come in was, and I quote, "Sometime." :mad:

Wow, that's nasty. The RX8 is a pretty cool car, but it definitely is NOT so rare that the dealer can't get another one. (Unlike asking a Toyota dealer to order you a Supra) :cool:
I'd look for another Mazda dealer in your area. Sounds like the staff there isn't interested in selling cars.
I had a similar experience when I bought my V-dub. The local dealer treated me like I had a "Ask me what my flesh-eating virus can do for YOU" sign around my neck. So I drove ~80 miles to a different VW dealer and was treated like royalty. (which was refreshing, since I'm pretty sure I don't have a flesh-eating virus) ;)

[Fearless Leader]

They are a chrysler, volvo (mainly), and mazda car dealer. And they are the only mazada car dealership for about 2 hours in any direction.

and well it doesn't really matter about the Rx8 any more as it has been dubed to small by my two passengers.
A used 3 serries BMW may work.
Volvo have some nice cars too.

[BanjoBanker]

Um, the Tundra with the 5.7L gets 14/18 on 2WD models. None of them show 20MPG highway. The Silverado 1500 gets 15/20 with both the 4.3L V6 and 5.3L V8 on 2WD models. That's with 315HP on the 5.3L.


The spec.B has peak torque at 3.6kRPM.
No Silverado gets 20 on the highway unless it is idling on a trailer. My son-in-law has an 07 1500 Silverado, 2wd, and I drove it for two weeks last summer and I never did better than 16 in almost exclusively highway driving. And that was without running the air! My '05 Z71 Tahoe gets 17 on the highway mostly due to the better (?) aerodynamics of the SUV compared to a pickup. Oh yeah, son-in-law's dad dumped an 07 Tndra after three months - it was a rolling piece of poop. He only put 1800 miles on it in the three months because it spent most of the time in the shop. My Z71 does not remember what the dealership looks like: oil change every 3500 and no other maintenance for 48,000 miles. Best truck I have ever owned. Looking at an 08 with the sat navigation!

[twoodcc]

No Silverado gets 20 on the highway unless it is idling on a trailer. My son-in-law has an 07 1500 Silverado, 2wd, and I drove it for two weeks last summer and I never did better than 16 in almost exclusively highway driving. And that was without running the air! My '05 Z71 Tahoe gets 17 on the highway mostly due to the better (?) aerodynamics of the SUV compared to a pickup. Oh yeah, son-in-law's dad dumped an 07 Tndra after three months - it was a rolling piece of poop. He only put 1800 miles on it in the three months because it spent most of the time in the shop. My Z71 does not remember what the dealership looks like: oil change every 3500 and no other maintenance for 48,000 miles. Best truck I have ever owned. Looking at an 08 with the sat navigation!

if you like your Z71 so much, then why are you looking at a new one? only 48,000 miles

[quagmire]

No Silverado gets 20 on the highway unless it is idling on a trailer. My son-in-law has an 07 1500 Silverado, 2wd, and I drove it for two weeks last summer and I never did better than 16 in almost exclusively highway driving. And that was without running the air! My '05 Z71 Tahoe gets 17 on the highway mostly due to the better (?) aerodynamics of the SUV compared to a pickup. Oh yeah, son-in-law's dad dumped an 07 Tndra after three months - it was a rolling piece of poop. He only put 1800 miles on it in the three months because it spent most of the time in the shop. My Z71 does not remember what the dealership looks like: oil change every 3500 and no other maintenance for 48,000 miles. Best truck I have ever owned. Looking at an 08 with the sat navigation!

If the Silverado is idling, it is getting 0 MPG because it is not moving. You should of said, only way to get the Silvy to get 20 MPG is having it on a constant downhill and a tailwind. :p My family has a 2002 Chevy Suburban. We use it mainly for highway travel and carrying our boat gear back and forth between the boat and our home for when it is hauled/launched each fall and spring. We also occasionally tow a horse trailer as well. We did avg. 19-20 MPG highway on a road trip to Florida.

PS: Must convince them to get the new Suburban Diesel when it comes time to replace the 2002. :)

[pseudobrit]

If the Silverado is idling, it is getting 0 MPG because it is not moving.

Unless it's on a trailer moving down the highway, just like he said in the part you quoted.

[yg17]

I'd have to say a VW GTI, but of course, I'm a bit biased :D

[Fearless Leader]

I'd have to say a VW GTI, but of course, I'm a bit biased :D

hmm I wonder why...

well the final blow has been delt. the only cars are the volvo c30 :confused: and a camry or variant of it. more than likely gona be a 4runner though (which is still nice). The other two passengers have given there verdict and they really do not want a car. well execpt for the volvo c30. Its an odd looking kinda cool looking 2 door hatchback and apperntly they like it

[quagmire]

hmm I wonder why...

well the final blow has been delt. the only cars are the volvo c30 :confused: and a camry or variant of it. more than likely gona be a 4runner though (which is still nice). The other two passengers have given there verdict and they really do not want a car. well execpt for the volvo c30. Its an odd looking kinda cool looking 2 door hatchback and apperntly they like it

Jumping from a "sports" car to a SUV is IMHO, a big step which would then restart what things you should consider. If the Camry and C30 is the only cars left. Go for the C30. It's not a bad car and it isn't everywhere like the Camry is. Plus, you get the feeling of supporting American since Volvo is owned by Ford. But, if you go SUV( which is stupid IMHO especially a 4Runner sized one) there are quite a few choices. The new Saturn Vue is quite nice along with the CR-V and RAV4. Anything bigger then an Equinox/Highlander sized SUV is a complete waste of money and gas unless you really need the cargo/towing capacity.

[iGav]

*strokes chin* What about a classic E28 M5?

[twoodcc]

hmm I wonder why...

well the final blow has been delt. the only cars are the volvo c30 :confused: and a camry or variant of it. more than likely gona be a 4runner though (which is still nice). The other two passengers have given there verdict and they really do not want a car. well execpt for the volvo c30. Its an odd looking kinda cool looking 2 door hatchback and apperntly they like it

i like the 4runner, but it's no where near a sports car though. (as far as speed)

[Fearless Leader]

i like the 4runner, but it's no where near a sports car though. (as far as speed)

yah, we sat in the cars over the weekend and drove a few. The IS 250 we get a serrious employee discount thanks to my aunt and it drives nicely. The teen figures for the 4runner in the gas department have made it not an option. The camry hybrid is the other option because my sisters are suddenly eco(nomic)-friendly and it also drives well but not as nice as the IS (surprising I know...)

and they don't want to drive a stick when they get the car (nor anybody else in the family for a matter of fact) so I get the flippy paddle gear shifter which brings some of the joy of driving with a stick.

The continueous gear in the camry is neat and the electric only mode too. and they are the same price becuase of a bigger discount on a lexus cars.

incase your wondering its the main factor in getting thoose two cars, its really hard to justify the extra money for other brands.

[twoodcc]

yah, we sat in the cars over the weekend and drove a few. The IS 250 we get a serrious employee discount thanks to my aunt and it drives nicely. The teen figures for the 4runner in the gas department have made it not an option. The camry hybrid is the other option because my sisters are suddenly eco(nomic)-friendly and it also drives well but not as nice as the IS (surprising I know...)

and they don't want to drive a stick when they get the car (nor anybody else in the family for a matter of fact) so I get the flippy paddle gear shifter which brings some of the joy of driving with a stick.

The continueous gear in the camry is neat and the electric only mode too. and they are the same price becuase of a bigger discount on a lexus cars.

incase your wondering its the main factor in getting thoose two cars, its really hard to justify the extra money for other brands.

well, if you're gonna get a camry, i'd get the V6 if you can afford it. still gets great gas mileage also