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MacRumors
Oct 23, 2007, 10:23 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Apple announced (http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2007/10/23itunes.html) today that they would be offering a special digital box set containing Led Zeppelin's entire discography, "The Complete Led Zeppelin," for exclusive pre-order on iTunes.
We're excited to offer Led Zeppelin's entire catalog as a special digital box set with this pre-order," said Eddy Cue, Apple's vice president of iTunes. "Now you can get all of the band's albums with one click for an incredible $99."

Led Zeppelin's entire catalog of songs and albums will also be available for individual purchase and download beginning November 13. Led Zeppelin had been one of the high profile hold-outs on digital distribution of their music.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/23/apple-itunes-offers-led-zeppelin-digital-box-set/)



twoodcc
Oct 23, 2007, 10:25 AM
awesome! glad they finally gave in

queshy
Oct 23, 2007, 10:25 AM
Hmm..maybe a new Led Zeppelin iPod is coming! :p

Kernow
Oct 23, 2007, 10:28 AM
Excellent! I have all the albums on vinyl (stolen from my dad's record collection :D ) but have never got around to getting versions I can listen to on my iPod.

fanbrain
Oct 23, 2007, 10:29 AM
$99? Wow. Is it the higher quality version? If so, I wouldn't mind my own digital box set.

Squonk
Oct 23, 2007, 10:30 AM
Wahoo!!! Time to get the Led out! Excellent news!!! I can only hope this will be available in iTunes Plus format... Otherwise, I'll stick to me ripped CD's with Apple Lossless format...

BWhaler
Oct 23, 2007, 10:31 AM
I couldn't buy this fast enough. Awesome.

aricher
Oct 23, 2007, 10:33 AM
Dunno why but this is the first thing that popped into my head...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/2/1362599_02bcdea730.jpg

DeaconGraves
Oct 23, 2007, 10:33 AM
Now if we can just get a Beatles set...

nemaslov
Oct 23, 2007, 10:41 AM
WHY WOULD ANYONE BUY THAT WHEN THET COULD GET THIS AMAZING BOX OF CDS WITH GREAT PACKAGING FOR LESS!!! AT AMAZON:

Complete Studio Recordings [ORIGINAL RECORDING REMASTERED]
Led Zeppelin

More about this product
List Price: $129.98
[B]Price: $89.97 & this item ships for FREE with Super Saver Shipping. Details
You Save: $40.01 (31%)

Dagless
Oct 23, 2007, 10:42 AM
Fantastic! I've always been a distant admirer of Led Zeppelin, might have to get this box set.

Avatar74
Oct 23, 2007, 10:48 AM
One thing that should be made clear is that the decision to hold out had not entirely been the band's and it wasn't over philosophical grounds either. It was essentially a money dispute.

There was a legal dispute between Led Zeppelin and Atlantic Records that began in 2002 in which they claimed Atlantic was shafting them on royalties. Furthermore, there was a bidding war between publishers that lasted several years which ended with Warner/Chappell guaranteeing higher royalties than in their prior agreement, and distributing via Warner Music Group.

Normally bands don't have this kind of leverage, because they aren't typically the copyright owners. But when Led Zeppelin originally licensed the songs under Superhype Music, they were in a 26 year agreement at the end of the term of which the copyrights reverted to the members of the band. From there they've provided publishers like Warner Chappell mechanical license to reproduce the works while retaining ownership. But that isn't typically how it works. It could have been because Led Zeppelin's earliest recordings were largely self financed... but when an artist gets an advance from a record label, that is a loan and the record company holds all copyrights in the material even after the loan is repaid through the recoupment process.

Today, few artists are smart enough to demand such agreements and consequently end up indebted to the record labels when sales start to slip.

thecritix
Oct 23, 2007, 11:02 AM
hmm
whole lotta sales

glad to see apple and zep overcame their communication breakdown.

samh004
Oct 23, 2007, 11:05 AM
Furthermore, there was a bidding war between publishers that lasted several years which ended with Warner/Chappell guaranteeing higher royalties than in their prior agreement, and distributing via Warner Music Group.

Does this mean that they wont be iTunes Plus ?

AgingGeek
Oct 23, 2007, 11:08 AM
This would be better if it included all the rare live recordings (more like the complete U2) which weren't available in the U.S.:

BBC Sessions (1 & 2)
Black Mountain Side
Bron-yr-ar-stomp
Final Cut (Knebworth)
Moma Don't wanna play no skif

etc

Avatar74
Oct 23, 2007, 11:12 AM
Does this mean that they wont be iTunes Plus ?

I don't see what this has to do with what i said.

samh004
Oct 23, 2007, 11:16 AM
I don't see what this has to do with what i said.

You mentioned who they were distributing with didn't you, and I wondered if they were offering iTunes Plus music or not. I they aren't, I don't see why this album would be an exception.

winstano
Oct 23, 2007, 11:16 AM
You know what'd be great? If you could actually download stuff off the store today! Been trying for about 2 hours to download some stuff, and I can't get ANYTHING... "Network connection was reset" error every single time!

levitynyc
Oct 23, 2007, 11:19 AM
Will this be available after the preorder?

Avatar74
Oct 23, 2007, 11:20 AM
You mentioned who they were distributing with didn't you, and I wondered if they were offering iTunes Plus music or not. I they aren't, I don't see why this album would be an exception.

That depends... this is a bit of a different licensing deal. Most artists today don't own the rights and they're pretty much subject to whatever terms are inked by the record company for digital distribution with iTunes.

But Led Zeppelin could stipulate either way... that they want iTunes Plus or they don't want iTunes Plus distribution, and whoever was bidding on the mechanical rights would have to agree to their terms apart from whatever else they were doing with the copyright material that they (the record label and/or publisher) own.

I meant to say that based on the information I presented, I don't see how one could ascertain either way without knowing what Led Zeppelin actually agreed to allow as part of the licensing deal.

SciTeach
Oct 23, 2007, 11:25 AM
YES!! I agree with the Beatles comments also.....maybe others will follow.

The ZEP rules.

psingh01
Oct 23, 2007, 11:37 AM
iTunes bringing the LEAD OUT!

odinsride
Oct 23, 2007, 11:38 AM
That's cool, but I've already owned the Complete Studio Recordings box set for the past 5 years :) It's a great collection of music. I highly recommend it if you don't already own the physical Zepp box set.

Multimedia
Oct 23, 2007, 11:43 AM
I already own the complete LZ on CDs so I'm out. But for those who don't this is a great offer. Enjoy! :)

I definitely entered the sweepstakes - no purchase necessary (http://www.apple.com/legal/itunes/us/ledz/).

chicagostars
Oct 23, 2007, 11:48 AM
I'd be curious to see how many completists who want the full box with liner notes, packaging, etc. will purchase the physical set and how many people will opt instead for the digital set @ iTunes. My guess is that many fans would like a physically tangible object, but I'm not sure of how many people spend any interacting with their CD packaging these days. (With the music digitized, the few box sets that I've held on to are packed away in a closet.)

I suppose you could buy the physical box, digitize it, and then it to a resale shop to recoup some of the cost.

Orng
Oct 23, 2007, 11:50 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4e/Led_zeppelin_boxset.jpg/200px-Led_zeppelin_boxset.jpg

I bought this box set on cassette when it was released in 1990, it was the first box set of anything I'd ever bought. I loved it, it would be nice to replace it now that all my cassettes are deep in storage. Although I may have already replaced most of it back in the heady days of Napster.

A girl I knew bought the CD version at the same time, they were her very first CDs. She had the practice of scratching her name into her cassettes with the metal pointy thing from her geometry set. Unfortunately, she thought she could carry this over to CDs. She never even got to listen to it.

GregA2
Oct 23, 2007, 11:54 AM
That sounds really cool, but I'm not sure "box set" is the right word for it in this case- If it's all digital... There's no box. :p

anubis
Oct 23, 2007, 12:11 PM
what is the point exactly of pre-ordering a digital box set? Are they going to run out on opening day? Just pay for it when you can actually download it.

cdamian
Oct 23, 2007, 12:14 PM
It would be great if this would be available in Spain too. I don't understand why the Spanish iTunes store is so rubbish compared to the US or UK one.

imwoblin
Oct 23, 2007, 12:20 PM
Led Zep is right up there with the Beatles as far as my favorite bands, but these two groups never wantesd to sell singles via iTunes. They want an all or nothing deal. I own all the Zep albums, and all the Beatles releases, but it would be nice if they would open up and allow people to purchase singles or individual albums. I guess you have to start somewhere.

bennyboi
Oct 23, 2007, 12:22 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4e/Led_zeppelin_boxset.jpg/200px-Led_zeppelin_boxset.jpg

I bought this box set on cassette when it was released in 1990, it was the first box set of anything I'd ever bought. I loved it, .

Yeah man. I still have those CDs in my booklet. They all skip on certain tracks, but I eventually picked up all the individual albums. But man what great box set. I really enjoyed the ordering on the disks.

rockosmodurnlif
Oct 23, 2007, 12:23 PM
Woo! Beatles are next! Not that I care but it would finally shut people up!

WHY WOULD ANYONE BUY THAT WHEN THET COULD GET THIS AMAZING BOX OF CDS WITH GREAT PACKAGING FOR LESS!!! AT AMAZON:

Complete Studio Recordings [ORIGINAL RECORDING REMASTERED]
Led Zeppelin

More about this product
List Price: $129.98
[B]Price: $89.97 & this item ships for FREE with Super Saver Shipping. Details
You Save: $40.01 (31%)

They don't have to wait for it to be shipped. But why buy it on iTunes? I heard it was going to be on all the digital services, so eMusic and Amazon should have it too. We should wait for them all to agree on a price so they don't risk under cutting each other, well except eMusic.

It should be DRM free right? If eMusic and Amazon are getting it too, it should be DRM free across the board. Can anyone confirm this?

what is the point exactly of pre-ordering a digital box set? Are they going to run out on opening day? Just pay for it when you can actually download it.

I think it auto downloads if you pre-order. So it's there in the morning when you wake up? I'm not sure but if that's not it. I don't see the point either.


I listen to my digital audio in 128 kbps mp3 files. Which I have done since the days of Napster when I was younger, my ears could hear better and couldn't tell the difference between 128, 192, 156 constant bitrate or 160 192 variable bit rate. Now that I'm older, I don't care. I've had friends want music from my collection but not take it because of the bitrate.

rockosmodurnlif
Oct 23, 2007, 12:29 PM
Zeppelin: I still after 10 years cycle Houses of the Holy, III, II, IV, whatever, and somehow appreciate new details. Listen the Rain Song uncompressed then at 128 and YOU tell ME!

Honestly, it isn't about yours my preference. Certainly Zeppelin songs DESERVE a high bit rate out of respect.
;)

I have listened to Rain Song at 128 and on the CD. I didn't hear it, perhaps you could describe what I'm missing.

And Zeppelin DESERVE a high bit rate out of respect? I hope you say that tongue in cheek. They don't deserve any better than a Miles Davis, Robert Johnson or Bach digital offering.

ChrisBrightwell
Oct 23, 2007, 12:32 PM
WHY WOULD ANYONE BUY THAT WHEN THET COULD GET THIS AMAZING BOX OF CDS WITH GREAT PACKAGING FOR LESS!!! AT AMAZON:

The digital set includes a lot more than that box does.

I have that box set, the BBC Sessions release, and How the West Was Won, a total of 127 songs. The iTunes set has 165 songs.

chicagostars
Oct 23, 2007, 12:39 PM
We're going back and forth about bitrates and what we hear (won't even open the can of worms of digital v. vinyl), but is anyone here planning on downloading this box set, be it from iTunes, Amazon, or even another source? Is anyone here planning on purchasing the physical box set of discs?

What would you see as the added value of the physical set? Does anyone see any advantage in just getting the digital set? What is the value see for people with extensive Led Zeppelin collections, digital or analog?

How about it? Any potential buyers?

bug67
Oct 23, 2007, 12:41 PM
This is great news...Too bad I have already owned everything from Zeppelin for years or I'd be all over this.

chicagostars
Oct 23, 2007, 12:49 PM
I disagree with that. I use lossless for archiving, to have a perfect original master version, so to speak. I'm sure the AES doesn't recommend throwing away the masters, right? :)

That way I can be future proofed. I can re-encode with any algorithm at whatever rate I want. Disk space is cheap and will increase rapidly, so I don't need to worry about it. Just look at the change in the size of iPods. I can store my CDs away without needing to ever rip again... I only want to do that once, ever.

Back 'em up and then sell the physical discs to a resale shop to recoup some of your money for something else (more music, perhaps?) . . . that's what I say!

Drumjim85
Oct 23, 2007, 01:05 PM
WHY WOULD ANYONE BUY THAT WHEN THET COULD GET THIS AMAZING BOX OF CDS WITH GREAT PACKAGING FOR LESS!!! AT AMAZON:

Complete Studio Recordings [ORIGINAL RECORDING REMASTERED]
Led Zeppelin

More about this product
List Price: $129.98
[B]Price: $89.97 & this item ships for FREE with Super Saver Shipping. Details
You Save: $40.01 (31%)

Because iTunes is the easier, faster way to do things.. (not Better.. but easier... and no, I'm not supporting iTunes)

ChrisBrightwell
Oct 23, 2007, 01:10 PM
Back 'em up and then sell the physical discs to a resale shop to recoup some of your money for something else (more music, perhaps?) . . . that's what I say!

Violation of copyright law, I say!

Macmaniac
Oct 23, 2007, 01:10 PM
I would rather have the hard copy box set, yeah I may have to encode it, but in terms of resale, its a much better deal. And I get posters, box art, etc. Also disks don't disappear when your HD dies.

nemaslov
Oct 23, 2007, 01:12 PM
Because iTunes is the easier, faster way to do things.. (not Better.. but easier... and no, I'm not supporting iTunes)

EASIER!!???

You order on Amazon one click. Three or four days later it arrives. You load in the CDs on any computer you like, takes a couple of minutes per album, about the same time as a download. You can have lossless, MP3s or any quality, no limitations. You can take the CD version in your car. You have backup forever, You have great artwork. Don't have to print our on crappy paper or waste colored printer ink. You have this amazing box that sits on your shelf. And again better quality than you most likely ever get by downloading.

Avatar74
Oct 23, 2007, 01:14 PM
Back 'em up and then sell the physical discs to a resale shop to recoup some of your money for something else (more music, perhaps?) . . . that's what I say!

I stopped purchasing CD's about three years ago. Part convenience, part philosophy. I got tired of storing and moving cases and cases of CD's even as backups... quite ostensibly due to the fact that even slight abrasion to the label side of a CD will promote oxidization of the metal substrate and consequently perforation rendering the CD useless.

It's honestly so much cheaper to replace them on a track by track basis if something goes corrupt (which rarely is the case with a half-decent HDD)... If you really are worried, though, you're better off making a DVD ROM backup of your AAC library because DVD's aren't as susceptible to disc rot since they're manufactured differently from CD's.

And philosophically speaking, I think it's important to promote the idea of commercially-viable internet distribution. It's a game changer that the industry is afraid of not due to piracy (which is a red herring), but due to the growing realization by recording artists that the internet affords them global distribution without having to enter into indentured servitude of the record labels who once held a distro monopoly.

Sticking it to the man 99 cents at a time... They didn't believe it could, but it really has added up to a force to be reckoned with.

rstansby
Oct 23, 2007, 01:16 PM
We're going back and forth about bitrates and what we hear (won't even open the can of worms of digital v. vinyl), but is anyone here planning on downloading this box set, be it from iTunes, Amazon, or even another source? Is anyone here planning on purchasing the physical box set of discs?

What would you see as the added value of the physical set? Does anyone see any advantage in just getting the digital set? What is the value see for people with extensive Led Zeppelin collections, digital or analog?

How about it? Any potential buyers?

I would much rather buy the box set. It will only take an hour to rip the songs into iTunes and I will have a hard copy backup, in case I lose the aac copy somehow. Also CDs are 1441 kbps, and it is easy to encode a CD to whatever bitrate I prefer today and I can rip it agoin at a higher bitrate if my preference changes in the future.

The only reason I can see for buying it from iTunes is convenience (not having to go to the store or wait for a delivery.) Also there is reduced use of plastic and paper. When download speeds and storage space become cheap enough to deliver iTunes content at 1441 kbps, then I might start buying music on iTunes. For now I will only use it for impulse buys of certain songs. If I'm going to spend $100 rebuying the Led Zep catalog I want to get full CD quality, and a nice book with lots of pictures and interviews.

Blue Velvet
Oct 23, 2007, 01:19 PM
Let's keep the thread on topic here and not get sidetracked about discussions of bitrates and audio transparency, thank you. This news will please a lot of Zep fans. :)

rstansby
Oct 23, 2007, 01:20 PM
Led Zep is right up there with the Beatles as far as my favorite bands, but these two groups never wantesd to sell singles via iTunes. They want an all or nothing deal. I own all the Zep albums, and all the Beatles releases, but it would be nice if they would open up and allow people to purchase singles or individual albums. I guess you have to start somewhere.

If you go back and read the original post in this thread you will see that:

"Led Zeppelin's entire catalog of songs and albums will also be available for individual purchase and download beginning November 13."

nemaslov
Oct 23, 2007, 01:20 PM
I stopped purchasing CD's about three years ago. Part convenience, part philosophy. I got tired of storing and moving cases and cases of CD's even as backups... quite ostensibly due to the fact that even slight abrasion to the label side of a CD will promote oxidization of the metal substrate and consequently perforation rendering the CD useless.

It's honestly so much cheaper to replace them on a track by track basis if something goes corrupt (which rarely is the case with a half-decent HDD)... If you really are worried, though, you're better off making a DVD ROM backup of your AAC library because DVD's aren't as susceptible to disc rot since they're manufactured differently from CD's.

And philosophically speaking, I think it's important to promote the idea of commercially-viable internet distribution. It's a game changer that the industry is afraid of not due to piracy (which is a red herring), but due to the growing realization by recording artists that the internet affords them global distribution without having to enter into indentured servitude of the record labels who once held a distro monopoly.

Sticking it to the man 99 cents at a time... They didn't believe it could, but it really has added up to a force to be reckoned with.

I have about 6,000 CDs. Some from the beginning... 1983 or 84. Not ONE has worn or oxidized!! I have digitized maybe half but love having the full albums. I find that when I play digitally in random, cuts play that I had forgotten about and I find amazing. Not just the classic cuts that one may purchase. Too many non hit songs will slowly fade.

Avatar74
Oct 23, 2007, 01:22 PM
EASIER!!???

You order on Amazon one click. Three or four days later it arrives. You load in the CDs on any computer you like, takes a couple of minutes per album, about the same time as a download. You can have lossless, MP3s or any quality, no limitations. You can take the CD version in your car. You have backup forever, You have great artwork. Don't have to print our on crappy paper or waste colored printer ink. You have this amazing box that sits on your shelf. And again better quality than you most likely ever get by downloading.

Now you don't need to print out the artwork. Plug your iPhone/iPod into your computer, synch up, go to the car, plug the audio aux jack from the phone to the car, and boom... no CD's, jacket art entirely stored on the phone... etc. No wasting CD blanks, no wasting paper, or ink, or jewel cases. Got no aux jack? Well, go get one! :D

Drumjim85
Oct 23, 2007, 01:28 PM
Violation of copyright law, I say!

Thank you Mr. RIAA ......

Now you don't need to print out the artwork. Plug your iPhone/iPod into your computer, synch up, go to the car, plug the audio aux jack from the phone to the car, and boom... no CD's, jacket art entirely stored on the phone... etc. No wasting CD blanks, no wasting paper, or ink, or jewel cases. Got no aux jack? Well, go get one! :D

1. There aren't CD Blanks... just plastic pellets
2. CDs can/do go bad over time.. CD-Rs are worse than pressed CDs though..
3. Hard drives aren't forever either..

:)

Avatar74
Oct 23, 2007, 01:30 PM
I've been looking forward to seeing this material on iTunes for a long time... pretty much since the first four-disc set came out in the 1990's.

My only frustration is that some of the original master recordings were of atrocious quality to begin with. Kashmir, though artistically one of their greatest songs, is sonically flattened compared to what it could be.

But we can't go back in time and change that. At the same time, the quirky recordings are themselves historical artifacts and I might find myself repulsed by a cleaner re-recorded version that doesn't have the grit and the character that so personifies the songs as we've come to know them.

sportsnut
Oct 23, 2007, 01:36 PM
EASIER!!???

You order on Amazon one click. Three or four days later it arrives. You load in the CDs on any computer you like, takes a couple of minutes per album, about the same time as a download. You can have lossless, MP3s or any quality, no limitations. You can take the CD version in your car. You have backup forever, You have great artwork. Don't have to print our on crappy paper or waste colored printer ink. You have this amazing box that sits on your shelf. And again better quality than you most likely ever get by downloading.


But there are quite a few people who make $100,000 who live in New York who have never had a car and never plan on buying one who MIGHT have friends over at 2am who would download LZ. Ever heard of impluse buying? Printer ink, artwork, bahhh humbug, those from back in the day already have things on their shelves:D

I buy many things from Amazon but sometimes I don't wanna wait for a delivery.....

No I don't make $100k and don't live in NY but I do have some OLD Led Z t-shirts that I wear around the house. ;)

Avatar74
Oct 23, 2007, 01:38 PM
Thank you Mr. RIAA ......



1. There aren't CD Blanks... just plastic pellets
2. CDs can/do go bad over time.. CD-Rs are worse than pressed CDs though..
3. Hard drives aren't forever either..

:)

Sure but hard drives are sealed and, I would argue, more reliable storage than CD's. At any rate, none of it is going to last forever... We'll be replacing all our CD-Rs and other removable media soon.

I think we'll see a lot more of non-removable solid state (flash) memory. Removable media have decreased in usefulness, I think, since the growth of broadband. More devices like iPod touch will surface, but also with the ability to purchase and stream music wirelessly between licensed devices... say from your LAN to your iPhone.

A few years ago I stopped buying CD's, now I've stopped burning them, and pretty soon I'll probably stop storing them locally on portable devices... instead opting to stream them over high speed broadband and wireless (e.g. WiMAX) technologies. I really think that's the next wave.

And just to keep this on topic... LED ZEPPELIN RULES!

Project
Oct 23, 2007, 01:41 PM
I would rather have the hard copy box set, yeah I may have to encode it, but in terms of resale, its a much better deal. And I get posters, box art, etc. Also disks don't disappear when your HD dies.

CDs wear out too. I have CDs from the 80s that don't work.

Id rather the download. Back it up to an external hard drive. And not have to worry about where to store the box set itself (that will never even get used)

I am soooo over the physical purchase sentimentality.

Blue Velvet
Oct 23, 2007, 01:48 PM
Pre-order the 'boxed' set in the UK and you'll go into a draw to win one of two prizes consisting of:

two tickets to the London show (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/08/31/nzeppelin131.xml)
two tickets to the private dress-rehearsal the night before
three nights hotel accommodation

I can imagine a couple of people I know probably having a heart attack if they won something like this.

rstansby
Oct 23, 2007, 01:58 PM
CDs wear out too. I have CDs from the 80s that don't work.

When you bought those CDs you used them as your primary format for playback, you took them out of your house and they took a lot of wear and tear.
In this dicussion we are all planning on listening to the music on our iPods/iTunes, so the CDs won't be exposed to day to day use. Don't you think your CDs from 1985 would still work if you had ripped them when you got them and then stored them in a safe place.

OllyW
Oct 23, 2007, 02:00 PM
Pre-order the 'boxed' set in the UK and you'll go into a draw to win one of two prizes consisting of:

two tickets to the London show (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/08/31/nzeppelin131.xml)
two tickets to the private dress-rehearsal the night before
three nights hotel accommodation

I can imagine a couple of people I know probably having a heart attack if they won something like this.

Just entered :D

UK gaming laws mean this competition can't be restricted to those who purchase the downloads only. Keep it quiet though, we'll have more chance of winning

nemaslov
Oct 23, 2007, 02:01 PM
CDs wear out too. I have CDs from the 80s that don't work.

Id rather the download. Back it up to an external hard drive. And not have to worry about where to store the box set itself (that will never even get used)

I am soooo over the physical purchase sentimentality.

I do understand the download thing and impulse buying. That's great. But I have never had one CD go bad in over twenty years unless I threw it against the wall. I have had three hard drives go bad in the past four years. Luckily I had backups, except one time. Now I have the songs on drives plus the CDs.

Blue Velvet
Oct 23, 2007, 02:02 PM
Just entered :D

Good luck. :D

Of course, if you win you'll take me as the second ticket-bearer, right? After all, it would only be fair... ;)

kfdodgerfan
Oct 23, 2007, 02:03 PM
I can appreciate the artistry of Led Zepplin. But it is widely known that they ripped off a number of songs, especially on Zep 1, from blues and folks singers and didn't credit them in the writing, nor did they pay royalties. If you have the actual LP, you'll see the only ones credited on the album was Page/Plant.

In future releases, they began to credit the original authors of the songs.

A very cheap move. I don't know why this hasn't been brought up more especially since they are so stingy with the use of Zep songs in movies etc.

sportsnut
Oct 23, 2007, 02:10 PM
Pre-order the 'boxed' set in the UK and you'll go into a draw to win one of two prizes consisting of:

two tickets to the London show (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/08/31/nzeppelin131.xml)
two tickets to the private dress-rehearsal the night before
three nights hotel accommodation

I can imagine a couple of people I know probably having a heart attack if they won something like this.


Hmmm, stop that, comments like that COULD cause flashbacks to those who saw them live and don't remember how they got home. :D

celavato
Oct 23, 2007, 02:14 PM
WHY WOULD ANYONE BUY THAT WHEN THET COULD GET THIS AMAZING BOX OF CDS WITH GREAT PACKAGING FOR LESS!!! AT AMAZON:

I suspect most of us will cherrypick songs as usual. :D

OllyW
Oct 23, 2007, 02:16 PM
I can appreciate the artistry of Led Zepplin. But it is widely known that they ripped off a number of songs, especially on Zep 1, from blues and folks singers and didn't credit them in the writing, nor did they pay royalties. If you have the actual LP, you'll see the only ones credited on the album was Page/Plant.

In future releases, they began to credit the original authors of the songs.

A very cheap move. I don't know why this hasn't been brought up more especially since they are so stingy with the use of Zep songs in movies etc.

Not quite true. Babe I'm Gonna Leave You is listed as "Traditional arr. by Jimmy Page" and You Shook Me & I Can't Quit You Baby are credited to Willie Dixon (He may have resorted to legal action to achieve this?)

And not one single song on the album is credited to Robert Plant due to a previous publishing deal he was still contracted to.

They were very naughty claiming full credit for most of the other songs on the album, there are a lot of blues and folk tunes incorporated in there. Great album though.

bretm
Oct 23, 2007, 02:21 PM
$99? Wow. Is it the higher quality version? If so, I wouldn't mind my own digital box set.

Not exactly a bargain. They only have 8 real albums plus coda plus a live album. Not sure whats included, but at best $99 is regular price.

bennyboi
Oct 23, 2007, 02:23 PM
I have listened to Rain Song at 128 and on the CD. I didn't hear it, perhaps you could describe what I'm missing.

And Zeppelin DESERVE a high bit rate out of respect? I hope you say that tongue in cheek. They don't deserve any better than a Miles Davis, Robert Johnson or Bach digital offering.

ok. well, 22 seconds in, the guitar progresses, and I can hear digital artifacting CLEARLY at 128 vs. cd. Are you listening on iPod headphones or stock speakers? I use Sony Studio Monitors for my own personal sound recording at home and Alesis or JBL studio monitors at work when editing video or listening to music. Now, I'm not going to go on and detail every time I hear CLEAR artifacting in the Rain Song. it's a 7 minute song :p.
But hey, if you don't notice it, awesome. Stick with your 128! Just please don't say there's no difference between a 3 mb 128 sound file vs. uncompressed.

Otherwise I suppose we can all blowup thumbnails of Van Gogh, print them, and frame them on our walls. And call them originals. :rolleyes:

EDIT - sry blue velvet, just read your post about keeping bit rates out of thread. but in my opinion, it is relavant with Zeppelin being available for Digital Download.

kfuty
Oct 23, 2007, 02:26 PM
WHY WOULD ANYONE BUY THAT WHEN THET COULD GET THIS AMAZING BOX OF CDS WITH GREAT PACKAGING FOR LESS!!! AT AMAZON:

Complete Studio Recordings [ORIGINAL RECORDING REMASTERED]
Led Zeppelin

More about this product
List Price: $129.98
[B]Price: $89.97 & this item ships for FREE with Super Saver Shipping. Details
You Save: $40.01 (31%)

From looking at the track list on iTunes, the iTunes Box Set includes:
Complete Studio Recordings (listed above)
How the West Was Won
Song Remains the Same
BBC Sessions
Mothership (don't know why since these tracks are already in the Complete Studio Recordings, remaster maybe?)

bretm
Oct 23, 2007, 02:31 PM
Not quite true. Babe I'm Gonna Leave You is listed as "Traditional arr. by Jimmy Page" and You Shook Me & I Can't Quit You Baby are credited to Willie Dixon (He may have resorted to legal action to achieve this?)

And not one single song on the album is credited to Robert Plant due to a previous publishing deal he was still contracted to.

They were very naughty claiming full credit for most of the other songs on the album, there are a lot of blues and folk tunes incorporated in there. Great album though.

On hell, they grabbed a phrase or a lick or two but on general the whole song was new. Most were ridiculously old folk songs that had no true author or were public domain.

benpatient
Oct 23, 2007, 02:32 PM
Bah.

Wake me up when they remaster them again for DVD-A and/or SACD.

If that never happens, I've still got my CD set. It's been happily residing on iTunes and iPod for years now.

To the guy saying that he wouldn't buy the cheaper physical set from Amazon because it's an "impulse buy" on iTunes and you don't want to wait for things that are impulse buys...not even 3 days for shipping, I have to ask:

Do you really think people are going to "impulse buy" a 100 dollar download? Since when is a pre-order an impulse buy?

If I wanted this set and had the option of:
A. iTunes preorder for 100 dollars, get it when the set is officially unlocked and I download it in a couple weeks

or

B. amazon order the box set of CDs with packaging. books, photos, etc for 90 dollars and get it in 3-4 days, still a week or two before itunes "releases" it.

which one is the impulse again?

Anyway, unless they have been re-mastered again from the multitrack, I'm not interested at all...

mac 2005
Oct 23, 2007, 02:34 PM
WHY WOULD ANYONE BUY THAT WHEN THET COULD GET THIS AMAZING BOX OF CDS WITH GREAT PACKAGING FOR LESS!!! AT AMAZON:

Maybe because buying the music from iTMS requires no packaging. I don't know about you, but I think packaging continues to be excessive. And guess where it most likely winds up--in landills.

asrai
Oct 23, 2007, 02:35 PM
This is good news. Nice price on the set.

lifeboy001
Oct 23, 2007, 02:40 PM
I do understand the download thing and impulse buying. That's great. But I have never had one CD go bad in over twenty years unless I threw it against the wall. I have had three hard drives go bad in the past four years. Luckily I had backups, except one time. Now I have the songs on drives plus the CDs.

I vote for this man...I have a 4-drive enclosure to back up all of my data, including multiple copies of my music. HD space is cheap, you'd be crazy not to back up your music.

Plus, having once owned 500+ cds and 300+ vinyls (and I'm nowhere near what some people have), I am quite happy having sold them. Try moving to a few different states with all that.

wordmunger
Oct 23, 2007, 02:43 PM
EASIER!!???

You order on Amazon one click. Three or four days later it arrives. You load in the CDs on any computer you like, takes a couple of minutes per album, about the same time as a download. You can have lossless, MP3s or any quality, no limitations. You can take the CD version in your car. You have backup forever, You have great artwork. Don't have to print our on crappy paper or waste colored printer ink. You have this amazing box that sits on your shelf. And again better quality than you most likely ever get by downloading.

Then you have a bunch of trash to deal with. Not just the packaging for the CDs, but all the packaging it got shipped in. I've already got too many CDs sitting on my shelf. That's why I like iTunes -- no trash, just the music. I don't take CDs in my car, I take my iPod. I never print anything out -- I just play the music, wherever I want it.

If I was going to buy the boxed set, I'd get it digitally, both to avoid all that waste and save myself the time of ripping the CDs. A couple minutes per album is still an hour of my time, worth much more than $10, and all in all, this is much better for the environment.

But I won't buy it anyway. I'm too old for that stuff.

hayesk
Oct 23, 2007, 02:46 PM
A very cheap move. I don't know why this hasn't been brought up more especially since they are so stingy with the use of Zep songs in movies etc.

So did the Beatles, Elvis, and a lot of other famous acts from the 50s, 60s, and 70s.

Bregalad
Oct 23, 2007, 03:13 PM
I merely stated you cannot hear the difference. If you think there is a difference, it's in your imagination. Try a double-blind ABX test and see if you can tell which is which with greater than 75% accuracy. I will bet money that you can't.

I could be a real snob and tell you that you're not an audio enthusiast until you listen to everything in 24-bit Linear PCM, which you CAN tell a difference over even 16-bit Linear PCM. But as most audiophiles tend to know nothing about digital audio, I suspect you couldn't give as detailed a breakdown as I can of why this is so.

I remember when the iTunes store first appeared panels of audiophiles and ordinary people sat down and listened to music compressed to 128, 160, 192 and 256kbps using both MP3 and AAC. Every single person claimed to hear differences. While all agreed AAC was superior to MP3 at 128 and 160, a small majority preferred the sound of the 192 bit MP3 over that of AAC. At 256 bits nobody could discern any difference from an uncompressed recording. I can't claim that these "tests" were conducted in a scientific manner. I merely wanted to show that a lot of people think there's a difference in the sound at different bit rates and with different compression algorithms.

I've long debated what encoding to use for my CD collection. It will take a lot of time and I don't want to have to redo it so I'm planning to use a high bit rate AAC. Why "waste" storage space? Because storage keeps getting cheaper every year and because I don't know when I might want to use the file in a way that requires it be converted to another format. While you argue that 128bit AAC is good enough for anyone, anecdotal evidence suggests otherwise and converting that file to MP3 is definitely going to butcher it. A 256 bit MP3 made from a 256bit AAC, on the other hand, is going to sound every bit as good as the original.

whatever
Oct 23, 2007, 03:36 PM
I have about 6,000 CDs. Some from the beginning... 1983 or 84. Not ONE has worn or oxidized!! I have digitized maybe half but love having the full albums. I find that when I play digitally in random, cuts play that I had forgotten about and I find amazing. Not just the classic cuts that one may purchase. Too many non hit songs will slowly fade.

I have well over 10,000 CDs (with the very first three being: Miami Vice Sound Track, Van Halen 1984 and Whitney Houston (I could have lied and name off some cooler CDs...)) and although those 3 still work, many of them have "worn". For those kids out there that don't remember the digital world in the 80's, we were told that CDs would never wear out, but this was during the cold war and maybe they thought the world was going to end first.

In the last couple of years as I reach deeper into my collection I find that CDs that I haven't listened to for years (crap maybe even decades) either sound like crap (many back catalogs were rushed out to CD in the 80's and they sound like crap) or they're oxidized.

Also I have found that even some of the newer "remastered" classics that I have sound like crap and for some reason their iTunes brothers sound better (if you're looking for an example, listen to Jethro Tull's Agualung, the 1996 Chrysalis remastered sounds like crap on CD and the iTunes version sounds better).

jstad
Oct 23, 2007, 03:40 PM
any clue on cost!? Led Zeppelin lives :) I am so pumped for the scheduled reunion concerts

whatever
Oct 23, 2007, 03:54 PM
I have about 6,000 CDs. Some from the beginning... 1983 or 84. Not ONE has worn or oxidized!! I have digitized maybe half but love having the full albums. I find that when I play digitally in random, cuts play that I had forgotten about and I find amazing. Not just the classic cuts that one may purchase. Too many non hit songs will slowly fade.

I have well over 10,000 CDs (with the very first three being: Miami Vice Sound Track, Van Halen 1984 and Whitney Houston (I could have lied and name off some cooler CDs...)) and although those 3 still work, many of them have "worn". For those kids out there that don't remember the digital world in the 80's, we were told that CDs would never wear out, but this was during the cold war and maybe they thought the world was going to end first.

In the last couple of years as I reach deeper into my collection I find that CDs that I haven't listened to for years (crap maybe even decades) either sound like crap (many back catalogs were rushed out to CD in the 80's and they sound like crap) or they're oxidized.

Also I have found that even some of the newer "remastered" classics that I have sound like crap and for some reason their iTunes brothers sound better (if you're looking for an example, listen to Jethro Tull's Agualung, the 1996 Chrysalis remastered sounds like crap on CD and the iTunes version sounds better).

Drumjim85
Oct 23, 2007, 03:56 PM
I suspect most of us will cherrypick songs as usual. :D

They might not allow that... it might be all or nothing...

Hairball
Oct 23, 2007, 03:58 PM
WHY WOULD ANYONE BUY THAT WHEN THET COULD GET THIS AMAZING BOX OF CDS WITH GREAT PACKAGING FOR LESS!!! AT AMAZON:

Complete Studio Recordings [ORIGINAL RECORDING REMASTERED]
Led Zeppelin

More about this product
List Price: $129.98
[B]Price: $89.97 & this item ships for FREE with Super Saver Shipping. Details
You Save: $40.01 (31%)

There are only 81 tracks on the Amazon set.

surferfromuk
Oct 23, 2007, 04:07 PM
I have a question that may sound niece but its not as daft as it sounds

It has to do with the fact that I've ripped a cd and compared it to a version from iTunes and the iTunes one does sound better so I wonder can one cd drive rip better than another. That is considering its digital it still has to be read and so if errors are present because of a misreading of the data from the cd then the digital info going into the digital to analog convertor can both vary in quality and be a degraded or untrue version. That said could one assume that apple iTunes copies are ripped using high end gear or direct from pure digital masters and in addition never going to be subjected to digital misreading meaning you get a perfect rendition each time ?

kfuty
Oct 23, 2007, 04:38 PM
I have a question that may sound niece but its not as daft as it sounds

It has to do with the fact that I've ripped a cd and compared it to a version from iTunes and the iTunes one does sound better so I wonder can one cd drive rip better than another. That is considering its digital it still has to be read and so if errors are present because of a misreading of the data from the cd then the digital info going into the digital to analog convertor can both vary in quality and be a degraded or untrue version. That said could one assume that apple iTunes copies are ripped using high end gear or direct from pure digital masters and in addition never going to be subjected to digital misreading meaning you get a perfect rendition each time ?

I know that SOME of the music comes directly from the master tapes. I'm not so sure about all of it though.

chicagostars
Oct 23, 2007, 05:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagostars
Back 'em up and then sell the physical discs to a resale shop to recoup some of your money for something else (more music, perhaps?) . . . that's what I say!

Violation of copyright law, I say!

Forgot to say that mine was a tongue-in-cheek comment, but music resale shops owners would argue with you on that one. It has not been established as illegal for a person to sell an original copy of a recording that they legally purchased to another entity. Now, there is still murkiness in regards to keeping a digital copy for your own PERSONAL use and what legal and/or ethical issues this raises. Of course, the heads of the major record labels and their legal teams are about as ethical as pimps . . .

mambodancer
Oct 23, 2007, 05:17 PM
Happy 6th birthday for the iPod!

Officially launched Oct. 23rd, 2001.

You've come a long way, baby!:)

carfac
Oct 23, 2007, 05:38 PM
It has not been established as illegal for a person to sell an original copy of a recording that they legally purchased to another entity. Now, there is still murkiness in regards to keeping a digital copy for your own PERSONAL use and what legal and/or ethical issues this raises. Of course, the heads of the major record labels and their legal teams are about as ethical as pimps . . .

Wrong- it is very well established law. If you sell the original CD's, you relinquish your license. You have to destroy all copies (yes, even digital) as you no longer hold a license for that music on your selling the CDs. But you definitely have the right to sell the CDs- you just can't keep the music from them.

carfac
Oct 23, 2007, 05:39 PM
I know that SOME of the music comes directly from the master tapes.

You mean that iTunes d/l's are taken directly from Master Tapes? I find that VERY hard to believe.

Supa_Fly
Oct 23, 2007, 05:42 PM
The Lemon Song ....

I think that is the ONLY song other than Stairway to Heaven that I know Zeppelin plays. I TOTALLy respect their skill and creativity though. Those guys had Soul .... a different kind of soul but definately soul!

I just hope I can purchase this song.

vendettabass
Oct 23, 2007, 05:58 PM
awe wow I love Led Zep!

good to see them on iTunes

ChrisBrightwell
Oct 23, 2007, 06:17 PM
[...] music resale shops owners would argue with you on that one. It has not been established as illegal for a person to sell an original copy of a recording that they legally purchased to another entity. I was referring to you keeping the copy. The right to resale is not one that I'd ever challenge.

The copy is authorized under fair use for as long as you own the original. As soon as you forfeit your rights to the original, the copy is no longer authorized and you must delete it.

Jetson
Oct 23, 2007, 07:27 PM
I only like a few Led Zeppelin songs. Most of their stuff is too demonic and/or screechy sounding for my taste. But I've already got the "good" tracks on CD.

I hope these iTunes tracks are from the recently issued remastered albums (circa 2007). Then I'd consider replacing the 7-8 tracks I already have. :)

Avatar74
Oct 23, 2007, 08:10 PM
I have a question that may sound niece but its not as daft as it sounds

It has to do with the fact that I've ripped a cd and compared it to a version from iTunes and the iTunes one does sound better so I wonder can one cd drive rip better than another. That is considering its digital it still has to be read and so if errors are present because of a misreading of the data from the cd then the digital info going into the digital to analog convertor can both vary in quality and be a degraded or untrue version. That said could one assume that apple iTunes copies are ripped using high end gear or direct from pure digital masters and in addition never going to be subjected to digital misreading meaning you get a perfect rendition each time ?

It's my estimation that iTunes offerings are made from a CD copy, not an original master recording. In many cases, the recording companies will not release the original master recordings. In other cases, the original master recordings are degraded or destroyed.

For quite some time, digital recordings were made from analog multitrack masters. Hence much of the inherent artifaction of the analog medium would carry over into the digital recording.

Most CD rips aren't going to result in noticeable artifaction because a bit-for-bit copy from a CD is pretty easy to produce at a rapid speed. It's a lot more complicated when, say, mastering two-track recordings for use on a CD from a multitrack source. There's a lot of calculations that go into transcoding the data from multiple tracks into a two-track high resolution master. Computer software however has become relatively sophisticated due to the tremendous power of CPUs and accuracy of CPU internal quartz oscillator clocks to which the sampling is synchronized (and reclocked on playback, eliminating jitter). Thus, computer mastering systems rival the best solid state A/D converters and playback systems are sufficiently accurate to rival the best solid state D/A converters. They simply have more processor and memory resources behind them to perform sufficient calculations during the sample & hold buffer phase of A/D or D/A conversion, which is the most critical component of recording/playback in digital systems. The longer the software has to sample, analyze, interpret, resample, parity check and confirm, during each processor cycle, the more accurate the encoding or decoding.

But considering that the rudimentary Sony PCM-F1 digital recording processor coupled with a Betamax deck in 1981 was sufficiently advanced digital recording technology for the average audio recording nut to produce accurate digital recordings, computers even ten years ago were sufficiently armed to encode/decode with accuracy.

But again, if all you're doing is ripping a CD... there's no encoding going on. It's just copying bits from a Linear PCM stream into a Linear PCM stream on your hard drive. AIFF and WAV are just "wrappers" to make Linear PCM recognizable and readable on a computer. They are not encoding/compression schema.

Diatribe
Oct 23, 2007, 08:28 PM
I was referring to you keeping the copy. The right to resale is not one that I'd ever challenge.

The copy is authorized under fair use for as long as you own the original. As soon as you forfeit your rights to the original, the copy is no longer authorized and you must delete it.

I have always wondered what happened if you lost your originals due to a fire or robbery and you still had your copy. Now would you have to repurchase the discs and what happens to music where you cannot get the original disc anymore?

rockosmodurnlif
Oct 23, 2007, 08:36 PM
ok. well, 22 seconds in, the guitar progresses, and I can hear digital artifacting CLEARLY at 128 vs. cd. Are you listening on iPod headphones or stock speakers? I use Sony Studio Monitors for my own personal sound recording at home and Alesis or JBL studio monitors at work when editing video or listening to music. Now, I'm not going to go on and detail every time I hear CLEAR artifacting in the Rain Song. it's a 7 minute song :p.
But hey, if you don't notice it, awesome. Stick with your 128! Just please don't say there's no difference between a 3 mb 128 sound file vs. uncompressed.

Otherwise I suppose we can all blowup thumbnails of Van Gogh, print them, and frame them on our walls. And call them originals. :rolleyes:

EDIT - sry blue velvet, just read your post about keeping bit rates out of thread. but in my opinion, it is relavant with Zeppelin being available for Digital Download.

After this I'm done.

I didn't hear it. But then again I'm not using whatever speakers you are. Mine are CA speakers. I'll keep saying what I do though, because it is my opinion.

ChrisBrightwell
Oct 23, 2007, 09:04 PM
I have always wondered what happened if you lost your originals due to a fire or robbery and you still had your copy.

That's what the fair use backups are for. :)

That applies for fire, at least. Not sure about robbery, but I would assume so.

chicagostars
Oct 23, 2007, 09:34 PM
Wrong- it is very well established law. If you sell the original CD's, you relinquish your license. You have to destroy all copies (yes, even digital) as you no longer hold a license for that music on your selling the CDs. But you definitely have the right to sell the CDs- you just can't keep the music from them.

Of course you relinquish license when you sell the CD. I only say murky because it may be illegal, but many people don't see any ethical issue with selling a CD that they've ripped for their own personal use. (scofflaws!) Going after people who make files available on P2P sites is one thing, but the labels would be biting off way too much of they chose to seek out the many people who rip and keep songs from disks they've unloaded. (if this was a possibility)

cervaro
Oct 24, 2007, 12:47 AM
Up fro 59 on the UK iTunes store. Given I have the majority of the CD's (bought in the last 12 months), thinking I may pass if the this isn't a Plus offering. Will reserve judgement for now as I have a lot of store credit to use, and for once, Apple haven't been too creative with the $-> conversion.

surferfromuk
Oct 24, 2007, 02:00 AM
in response to avatar

I expect that is true but once you've ripped there will be no further loss during playback and the digital copy will remain umchanchaged indefinately whereas continued listning to your cd on a variety of cd players will produce a different set of results over time as the ability of the laser to accurately read and interprate the data changes. Indeed the reading of data from an audio cd to be transcoded into audio on a consumer cd player will always be a "version" of the data and not a bit for bit reading that you get from a hard disk or especially a flash drive. Furthermore, i would imagine that the digital master 2 channel aac files delivered to apple by music companies wil be ripped from either a direct digital bounce from a modern digital archive and may well have never seen a cd or that especially in the case of a digital remaster from say EMI would be a digital data copy rather than an audio transcode from any cd source.
that said it appears nobody actually knows but i know that there is a value in a digital copy that will never degrade. How you get that copy seems to be the point of difference but i imagine we are close to audiophile sound differences which indeed may mean gold plated terminals may get mentioned at any time!.

geWAPpnet
Oct 24, 2007, 03:55 AM
Up fro 59 on the UK iTunes store. Given I have the majority of the CD's (bought in the last 12 months), thinking I may pass if the this isn't a Plus offering. Will reserve judgement for now as I have a lot of store credit to use, and for once, Apple haven't been too creative with the $-> conversion.
79,99 Euro in iTunes Germany! That's quite cheap, because normally all prices in Dollar are charged 1:1 in Euro in iTunes. Not to speak of examples like "Depeche Mode Complete": 169,99 Dollar in iTunes USA, 179,99 Euro in iTunes Germany!

Also the CD-Box with the complete studio recordings (missing the Live albums of the iTunes offer) costs at amazon.de 153,90 Euro!

BTW the release date for "The Complete Led Zeppelin (Remastered)" in iTunes Germany is set to November 9.

Diatribe
Oct 24, 2007, 06:14 AM
That's what the fair use backups are for. :)

That applies for fire, at least. Not sure about robbery, but I would assume so.

It does? But what if you get insurance money for it? So basically you'd be not hurting anyone, because a) it is within your fair use rights to not have to repurchase the discs and b) the insurance company couldn't care less if you replaced your original discs with the insurance money and since you actually lost the discs it is not a scam either.

You sure this is correct?

ChrisBrightwell
Oct 24, 2007, 08:33 AM
It does? But what if you get insurance money for it? So basically you'd be not hurting anyone, because a) it is within your fair use rights to not have to repurchase the discs and b) the insurance company couldn't care less if you replaced your original discs with the insurance money and since you actually lost the discs it is not a scam either.

You sure this is correct?
If you're reimbursed for the lost property, I'm pretty sure that forfeits your right to the backup. I'm not sure of the intricacies (nor am I sure that there's a precedent for this), but that's my understanding of the laws.

ChrisBrightwell
Oct 24, 2007, 08:37 AM
continued listning to your cd on a variety of cd players will produce a different set of results over time as the ability of the laser to accurately read and interprate the data changes.This is only true if you fail to take care of your disc or your player.

Indeed the reading of data from an audio cd to be transcoded into audio on a consumer cd player will always be a "version" of the data and not a bit for bit reading that you get from a hard disk or especially a flash drive. That's exactly what it is, actually. 16 bits per sample, 44,1000 samples per second.

Furthermore, i would imagine that the digital master 2 channel aac files delivered to apple by music companies wil be ripped from either a direct digital bounce from a modern digital archive and may well have never seen a cd or that especially in the case of a digital remaster from say EMI would be a digital data copy rather than an audio transcode from any cd source.Most analyses I've read conclude that Apple does a high-quality rip from a retail CD.

that said it appears nobody actually knows but i know that there is a value in a digital copy that will never degrade.This is why CDs were so popular over vinyl, cassettes, and 8-tracks.

Avatar74
Oct 24, 2007, 10:13 AM
in response to avatar

I expect that is true but once you've ripped there will be no further loss during playback and the digital copy will remain umchanchaged indefinately whereas continued listning to your cd on a variety of cd players will produce a different set of results over time as the ability of the laser to accurately read and interprate the data changes.

No. If properly stored to prevent oxidization and perforation (i.e. disc rot), the actual reading of the subsurface pits by the low-power laser does not, unlike a diamond stylus on vinyl, wear down the structure of those pits so as to alter the data. Even if it did, there is enough error correction built into a PCM stream from surrounding data and buffer interpolation. We're talking about anomalies of a duration of 1/44000th of a second... your mind has enough difficulty perceiving an anomaly in a single frame of film at 1/24th... think about that.

If the anomaly were to persist across an entire track or series of tracks, consider that what you'd be hearing would not be restricted to something resembling "fuzz" in the sound... such an anomaly of sequential changes in the binary data throughout would produce entire shifts in both frequency and amplitude, and not in one part of the spectrum, but throughout the spectrum. In short, it wouldn't necessarily even remotely resemble the original recorded audio at all. It could be a garbled mess.

Indeed the reading of data from an audio cd to be transcoded into audio on a consumer cd player will always be a "version" of the data and not a bit for bit reading that you get from a hard disk or especially a flash drive.

Incorrect. Audio transcode from CDDA to AIFF does not involve a "bounce" or resampling of the data if the resultant AIFF has been set to the same frequency and bit rate as the source.

Only when a "bounce" is performed do the inconsistencies between consumer and professional applications begin to reveal themselves as the sample & hold function then becomes critical in the resampling process that is used to transcode to a different bitrate or sampling frequency, or different compression algorithm.

Furthermore, i would imagine that the digital master 2 channel aac files delivered to apple by music companies wil be ripped from either a direct digital bounce from a modern digital archive and may well have never seen a cd or that especially in the case of a digital remaster from say EMI would be a digital data copy rather than an audio transcode from any cd source.

Based on a comparison between production CDs and their protected AAC counterparts, I have no reason to believe Apple has gone back to the original master recordings, or to a "modern digital archive" (which, sad to say, most recording companies don't keep... in many cases they lose the multitrack masters). Radio stations and other promotional outlets also receive CD copies for their digital libraries. It would be horrendously expensive (and counterproductive in terms of generating a profit) for a 24-bit 2-track master to be shipped to Apple for every song and album they featured. At 99 cents a pop, it won't turn a profit.

that said it appears nobody actually knows but i know that there is a value in a digital copy that will never degrade. How you get that copy seems to be the point of difference but i imagine we are close to audiophile sound differences which indeed may mean gold plated terminals may get mentioned at any time!.

Since the public doesn't have common access (e.g. through retail channels) to 24-bit master recordings, you don't really have a choice between the 16-bit CD audio that's released and the rip from CD audio that Apple uses in their AAC files. Very few if any of the tracks will have been remastered directly from 24-bit PCM. However, it's debatable as to whether or not that would actually be a good thing or a bad thing.

Consider, for example, that while AAC is well suited for the dynamic range (96dB) and amplitude resolution (65,536 values per sample) of 16-bit PCM sources, it is hardly sufficient for the dynamic range (~140dB) and amplitude resolution (16.7 million per sample) of 24-bit PCM. Much of the added benefit of 24-bit PCM is going to be lost in the process of transcoding and, depending on AAC encoder, may induce more artifaction in the AAC transcode than the 16-bit PCM source would... because the 16-bit PCM source is already going to lack amplitude values beyond the dynamic range supported by AAC.

Suffice it to say, I've tried 128Kbps and 256Kbps AAC transcodes from both professional 16- and 24-bit masters and there are mixed results... benefits and detriments on both sides...

devman
Oct 24, 2007, 10:39 AM
I think (not certain) it is the publishers that do the conversion - not Apple. They send AAC files to Apple using the iTunes Producer app.

http://www.apple.com/itunes/musicmarketing/

edit: hmm, it appears they can send in lossless also.

edit: http://www.losslessaudioblog.com/2006/07/01/apple-lossless-coming-to-itunes-producer-14/

Avatar74
Oct 24, 2007, 11:08 AM
I think (not certain) it is the publishers that do the conversion - not Apple. They send AAC files to Apple using the iTunes Producer app.

http://www.apple.com/itunes/musicmarketing/

edit: hmm, it appears they can send in lossless also.

edit: http://www.losslessaudioblog.com/2006/07/01/apple-lossless-coming-to-itunes-producer-14/


Thanks for the clarification. It may differ depending on the scale of the distributor and whether or not they have any special promotions they coordinate wth iTunes, e.g. front page stuff...

But hey, I think I'm going to check this out. I have some material I was going to distribute on iTunes via CD Baby but if I can get on board through the producer program that would be better.

At any rate, though, I doubt that the labels even go back to the original master recordings. It really is going to be most convenient the majority of the time for them to just load the new releases through a CD. In some cases the record label doesn't even have the original master. It may be in the possession of the producer, recording artist or the studio that's archiving it on behalf of the client.

Diatribe
Oct 24, 2007, 11:09 AM
edit: hmm, it appears they can send in lossless also.

edit: http://www.losslessaudioblog.com/2006/07/01/apple-lossless-coming-to-itunes-producer-14/

Now if they'd actually use it...

devman
Oct 24, 2007, 11:19 AM
Thanks for the clarification. It may differ depending on the scale of the distributor and whether or not they have any special promotions they coordinate wth iTunes, e.g. front page stuff...

But hey, I think I'm going to check this out. I have some material I was going to distribute on iTunes via CD Baby but if I can get on board through the producer program that would be better.

You may want to check this out also. http://www.tunecore.com/

surferfromuk
Oct 24, 2007, 01:51 PM
I bow to the greater knowledge. Thanks for the clarifications.

theman
Oct 24, 2007, 07:05 PM
hmm
whole lotta sales

glad to see apple and zep overcame their communication breakdown.

squeeze my lemon..till the juice runs down my leg...

theman
Oct 24, 2007, 07:09 PM
Led Zep is right up there with the Beatles as far as my favorite bands, but these two groups never wantesd to sell singles via iTunes. They want an all or nothing deal. I own all the Zep albums, and all the Beatles releases, but it would be nice if they would open up and allow people to purchase singles or individual albums. I guess you have to start somewhere.

dude, how could you pick only some Zep tunes?? are you serious? every single one is amazing. i'm glad they are only releasing it all at once so people will appreciate all the songs.

mihiruthere93
Oct 25, 2007, 03:48 PM
Its about time :)

redfirebird08
Oct 25, 2007, 04:28 PM
While this is not a big deal to me because I own the CD's, I am glad Zep is finally in legal digital distribution. Hopefully more of my generation can discover what I consider the greatest band of all time! :)

The Lemon Song ....

I think that is the ONLY song other than Stairway to Heaven that I know Zeppelin plays. I TOTALLy respect their skill and creativity though. Those guys had Soul .... a different kind of soul but definately soul!

I just hope I can purchase this song.

You've gotta be kidding. Of all the songs, The Lemon Song is the only one other than Stairway that you know? That's very strange! :D I like The Lemon Song, although it's not their best work by any stretch. Led Zeppelin II is an amazing album. The best songs are: "Whole Lotta Love," "What Is And What Should Never Be," "Heartbreaker," "Ramble On," and "Moby Dick." You should really look into purchasing Led Zeppelin I, II, III, IV, Houses of the Holy, and Physical Graffiti. Those are an absolute must. The first 6 Zeppelin albums are truly incredible.

And for those wondering about this digital set, How The West Was Won is an awesome live 3-disc album and BBC Sessions is also a great 2-disc album. It also includes The Song Remains The Same, which is the soundtrack to the film concert. This was a disappointing performance from the band and nowhere near their best. Everyone should check out Led Zeppelin DVD. It shows them at their best. :)

redfirebird08
Oct 25, 2007, 05:55 PM
Double post. Please delete.

vixapphire
Oct 26, 2007, 02:29 PM
That sounds really cool, but I'm not sure "box set" is the right word for it in this case- If it's all digital... There's no box. :p

Apple. Think outside the box (set).

J@ffa
Nov 23, 2007, 10:28 AM
Err, weird question; has anyone here bought 'Mothership' off iTunes? If so, could you either post here or PM me the artwork for it? I can't get the iTunes auto-downloader to get it and the quality of the artwork on every site I've been on so far is terrible (horrible compression artefacts, washed out colour). Thanks!

rdowns
Nov 23, 2007, 11:25 AM
Will this do?

http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/80/1c/3ee690b809a028a486256110.L.jpg

OpusFL
Dec 5, 2007, 09:48 AM
I couldn't buy this fast enough. Awesome.

That was exactly my reaction. I probably had about 40% of it from cd's I had not lost or had stolen but still. Too good to pass up. It's nice being able to go the search glass.. type in riverside and be listening to traveling riverside blues from the bbc sessions inside of 5 seconds

RRutter
Jan 2, 2008, 01:50 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Apple announced (http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2007/10/23itunes.html) today that they would be offering a special digital box set containing Led Zeppelin's entire discography, "The Complete Led Zeppelin," for exclusive pre-order on iTunes.

I know it's been awhile and this has been out, but the Led Zeppelin concert in London was amazing, and :apple: is so smart to do this. Cheers, :apple:!

:apple:

sellitman
Jan 2, 2008, 06:38 AM
YES!! I agree with the Beatles comments also.....maybe others will follow.

The ZEP rules.

She had that
Camarillo brillo
Flamin out along her head,
I mean her mendocino bean-o
By where some bugs had made it red. :cool:

pamon
Jan 2, 2008, 07:49 PM
LZ + itunes = happy ipod.