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MacRumors
Oct 23, 2007, 03:26 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Apple's Gold Master (Retail) version of Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard has at least one visual tweak over the developer seeds. It appears Apple has listened to user feedback about the visual inconsistency with dock items appearing on a 3d shelf on the Left and Right side of the screen.


http://images.macrumors.com/article/2007/10/23/squaredock.jpg


Apple has updated the Dock so that it has a 2-Dimensional appearance when it resides on the side of the screen. When residing on the bottom of the screen, the Dock retains the 3d shelf (http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/desktop.html) appearance.

Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard will officially launch on October 26th at 6 p.m. If you haven't already ordered online (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FK88JK?tag=weeno&camp=0&creative=0&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=B000FK88JK&adid=1MD6ZAC88T1F7SWKZWPF&), MacRumors readers are organizing meetups (http://forums.macrumors.com/forumdisplay.php?f=114) in their local regions.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/23/mac-os-x-leopard-9a581s-dock-visual-tweaks/)



koobcamuk
Oct 23, 2007, 03:27 PM
Awesome!!!! It's so good when Apple listen to us. Microsoft never listened to people like this (in my opinion).

10.5 seems all the sweeter.

And my first first post. :D

mozmac
Oct 23, 2007, 03:27 PM
I love it when they listen to the users. That's who they develop for anyways.

Matthew Yohe
Oct 23, 2007, 03:27 PM
That looks nice.

It's nice when Apple listens.

Simmerl
Oct 23, 2007, 03:27 PM
Awesome!

Looks much better that way :D

wngraham
Oct 23, 2007, 03:28 PM
To all the naysayers - here's your "top secret feature"

;)

Sky Blue
Oct 23, 2007, 03:29 PM
awesome, looked weird on the side

Jon'sLightBulbs
Oct 23, 2007, 03:29 PM
Sounds more like a glitch than a prophetic revolution in interface.

jboyzh
Oct 23, 2007, 03:29 PM
Now that's nice to hear :-)

Oirectine
Oct 23, 2007, 03:30 PM
Wow, I actually kinda liked how it looked on the side--and that's where I use it :-P honestly not a big deal for me, though (I can get used to this look as well)

notjustjay
Oct 23, 2007, 03:31 PM
... but is it supposed to let you slide your apps underneath the dock like that?

I can't do that when the dock is at the bottom of the screen...

Cheruman
Oct 23, 2007, 03:31 PM
They should have this as an option for when the dock is in the default position - looks much better IMHO

infectbda
Oct 23, 2007, 03:31 PM
I'm glad they did this, but did they add an option to the dock prefs to switch between the two looks? I think if people want to use the 3D on the side or the 2D on the bottom they should be able to choose to.

russell.h
Oct 23, 2007, 03:31 PM
Shame they didn't listen to the majority of users who keep the dock on the bottom and don't want it 3d.

me_94501
Oct 23, 2007, 03:31 PM
Nice!

Now if someone can hack it (haxie or otherwise) so that it can look like this on the bottom, I will be ecstatic. :p

InLikeALion
Oct 23, 2007, 03:32 PM
I would LOVE to be able to have this look for the bottom, too. I really just don't like the fake 3Dness of the new dock, but the idea of using it on the side just to get this matte goodness (to which I seriously gave thought) makes me a little sick to the stomach. Side-docking always gives me the queasies :o

Matthew Yohe
Oct 23, 2007, 03:33 PM
... but is it supposed to let you slide your apps underneath the dock like that?

I can't do that when the dock is at the bottom of the screen...

Since you can now "nudge" applications to other spaces, they had to make this possible.

rendezvouscp
Oct 23, 2007, 03:33 PM
I'm glad that they did this for people who use it on the side, but I love the dock hidden and at the bottom and I would've loved my dock to look like this. I hope it becomes a preference in the future.
-Chasen

twoodcc
Oct 23, 2007, 03:33 PM
I love it when they listen to the users. That's who they develop for anyways.

i agree. now i just can't wait for leopard!

aitala
Oct 23, 2007, 03:33 PM
And there was much rejoicing...


EMA

Simmerl
Oct 23, 2007, 03:34 PM
Now, if we just had "fan out" stacks even with the Dock on the side, I would run out of things to complain about. XD

darthraige
Oct 23, 2007, 03:36 PM
That's so sick! I CAN NOT WAIT!!!!!!!!!!!

LondonMacs
Oct 23, 2007, 03:37 PM
It is so cool when Apple listens.:)

Can't wait for release!

jstad
Oct 23, 2007, 03:39 PM
Yay! no more being forced to keep the dock on the bottom on leopard!

bdkennedy1
Oct 23, 2007, 03:39 PM
That is excellent news! It looks a lot better.

MrCrowbar
Oct 23, 2007, 03:42 PM
... but is it supposed to let you slide your apps underneath the dock like that?

I can't do that when the dock is at the bottom of the screen...

Err... you can do this in Tiger...

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/5909/picture1or5.png

jboyzh
Oct 23, 2007, 03:43 PM
Would be nice at the bottom, too...

Skylor
Oct 23, 2007, 03:44 PM
Damnit OiNK for being shut down.
I could be downloading the build right now. =(

atari1356
Oct 23, 2007, 03:45 PM
I prefer the 3D look (although I've never seen how that would look on the side). This flat 2D look seems poorly designed... what's with the thick white border around it? I like the Tiger 2D dock better.

notsofatjames
Oct 23, 2007, 03:45 PM
I wonder how macrumors got this screenshot ? I was sure that Apple hadn't released this build to developers yet ? Or have I missed something. I had read that it had leaked though....:rolleyes: I Wonder how long before iLegal get here.

pknz
Oct 23, 2007, 03:46 PM
Damnit OiNK for being shut down.
I could be downloading the build right now. =(

Yeah, don't do that.

61132
Oct 23, 2007, 03:47 PM
I want that option on the bottom too!

odo
Oct 23, 2007, 03:48 PM
I have my dock always on the side so I'm glad that is still possible and without the cheap 3D look. Is there any change to the dock on the side that wasn't there before? My dock is now a bit whiteish and on the screenshot looks more blackish, or is that because of the backgroundpicture?

artpease
Oct 23, 2007, 03:49 PM
Shame they didn't listen to the majority of users who keep the dock on the bottom and don't want it 3d.
Amen!

I don't think this has anything to do with listening at all or we would have a 2d Dock preference...it's just clean-up of Apple knows best!:(

InLikeALion
Oct 23, 2007, 03:51 PM
I want to know where MacRumors got this screen-shot, too!

Arn, do you have access to the GM and there hasn't been any stories of it yet? I looked at the Desktop page at apple.com briefly and didn't see the side-shot??

InLikeALion
Oct 23, 2007, 03:53 PM
Amen!

I don't think this has anything to do with listening at all or we would have a 2d Dock preference...it's just clean-up of Apple knows best!:(

This is what I suspect/fear also. But as someone else said, I feel it is pretty unfinished seeming - the border and bevel appear not too polished.

crossifixio
Oct 23, 2007, 03:53 PM
Thats excellent! Well done apple for listening to us nagging and picky customers :D :apple:

iJawn108
Oct 23, 2007, 03:54 PM
I want!

pyn
Oct 23, 2007, 03:54 PM
Yay! Now I just need this for the bottom dock!

Sbrocket
Oct 23, 2007, 03:54 PM
I want to know where MacRumors got this screen-shot, too!

Arn, do you have access to the GM and there hasn't been any stories of it yet? I looked at the Desktop page at apple.com briefly and didn't see the side-shot??

Where do you think MacRumors gets any of its news that should otherwise be secret? People send in stuff.

manu chao
Oct 23, 2007, 03:55 PM
This change was first reported by John Gruber at daringfireball yesterday.

illegalprelude
Oct 23, 2007, 03:55 PM
i dont get it....any before and after shots? :confused:

jasontm1
Oct 23, 2007, 03:57 PM
Since you can now "nudge" applications to other spaces, they had to make this possible.

Actually they didn't have to make it possible for windows to slide under the dock as you say. When sliding a window into a Space above, the window will stop at the menu bar while the mouse pointer will continue until it stops at the top of the screen. At that time you will slide into the Space above. So you see, the window does not need to follow along with a pointer to the edge of the screen for the slide into a new space to occur.

TheSpaz
Oct 23, 2007, 03:59 PM
I want this on the bottom as well. Count me in! I HATE the new 3D Dock. PLEASE SOMEONE COME OUT WITH A HACK THAT LETS YOU HAVE IT ON THE BOTTOM!

Wait... I wonder if it will be a defaults hack to com.apple.dock.plist. That would be sweet!

me_94501
Oct 23, 2007, 04:00 PM
i dont get it....any before and after shots? :confused:
In previous Leopard builds it looked something like this:
http://www.rogueamoeba.com/utm/posts/Thoughts/sidedock-2007-08-29-16-00

jholzner
Oct 23, 2007, 04:02 PM
Err... you can do this in Tiger...



Wow, you don't follow forms much, huh? :P

Everyone is happy about HOW it is now displayed on the side, not that it CAN be displayed on the side.

brianus
Oct 23, 2007, 04:02 PM
I prefer the 3D look (although I've never seen how that would look on the side). This flat 2D look seems poorly designed... what's with the thick white border around it? I like the Tiger 2D dock better.

I agree, the lighter, frosted dock from Tiger looks better. This 2D Leopard dock looks like one of those floating iLife palettes, like something that should only be onscreen temporarily. I don't like it.

What thick white border though? I don't see any border at all.

Mac OS X Ocelot
Oct 23, 2007, 04:03 PM
I would like to see a screenshot of the old side Dock look that everyone complained about to compare the two.

Kaspers
Oct 23, 2007, 04:03 PM
Damn I don't like it.. the 3d dock with it's reflections was much nicer !

brianus
Oct 23, 2007, 04:03 PM
Wow, you don't follow forms much, huh? :P

Everyone is happy about HOW it is now displayed on the side, not that it CAN be displayed on the side.

He was referring to a previous comment in which someone expressed surprise that a window could be slid under the Dock, as though that were not possible in Tiger.

Frozentoast
Oct 23, 2007, 04:04 PM
Now if only they could 'tweak' the Aqua Scroll Bars by updating them at all...

apfhex
Oct 23, 2007, 04:05 PM
Everyone is happy about HOW it is now displayed on the side, not that it CAN be displayed on the side.
He was talking about the fact that the Dock on the side lets you move windows underneath it.

jepjepjep
Oct 23, 2007, 04:05 PM
Fantastic news! Good job :apple:!

jholzner
Oct 23, 2007, 04:05 PM
He was referring to a previous comment in which someone expressed surprise that a window could be slid under the Dock, as though that were not possible in Tiger.

Aaah, okay. I guess I should be the one to pay more attention. My apologies.

JasonElise1983
Oct 23, 2007, 04:06 PM
... but is it supposed to let you slide your apps underneath the dock like that?

I can't do that when the dock is at the bottom of the screen...


What OS version are you running? I've been able to do that for years it seems. Maybe not, but i know i can do it right now in Tiger. On the sides and on the bottom. hmmm....maybe it's because i'm running multiple monitors.

-JE

jepjepjep
Oct 23, 2007, 04:06 PM
... but is it supposed to let you slide your apps underneath the dock like that?

I can't do that when the dock is at the bottom of the screen...

It only works like that when the Dock is set to Auto-hide.

Cloudsurfer
Oct 23, 2007, 04:07 PM
Wow, that actually looks cool :)

Mac OS X Ocelot
Oct 23, 2007, 04:07 PM
I agree, the lighter, frosted dock from Tiger looks better. This 2D Leopard dock looks like one of those floating iLife palettes, like something that should only be onscreen temporarily. I don't like it.

What thick white border though? I don't see any border at all.

Click the image in the original article. The border is obvious, though it kind of looks light gray to me.

InLikeALion
Oct 23, 2007, 04:09 PM
Where do you think MacRumors gets any of its news that should otherwise be secret? People send in stuff.

I was just curious as to source. If in fact they have access to the full GM, then wouldn't it deserve a more in-depth story than just "oooh, look at the dock on the side."??? Gee, I realize that there are a lot of contributors and anonymous tipsters, etc..

slffl
Oct 23, 2007, 04:10 PM
I wish they would stop wasting their time on the dock. Who the hell uses the dock? It's like people who use the 'Start' menu in Windows. It's all fluff and for show.

flopticalcube
Oct 23, 2007, 04:11 PM
I wish they would stop wasting their time on the dock. Who the hell uses the dock? It's like people who use the 'Start' menu in Windows. It's all fluff and for show.

And in the meantime, my Airport connections are dropping, my iMacs are freezing and my AEBS has problems with its disks....:rolleyes:

Frozentoast
Oct 23, 2007, 04:12 PM
I wish they would stop wasting their time on the dock. Who the hell uses the dock? It's like people who use the 'Start' menu in Windows. It's all fluff and for show.
Exactly. They need to acquire Quicksilver and bring it to the masses like they did with Coverflow. Bring on the paradigm shift...

InLikeALion
Oct 23, 2007, 04:12 PM
I wish they would stop wasting their time on the dock. Who the hell uses the dock? It's like people who use the 'Start' menu in Windows. It's all fluff and for show.

Lots of people. Everyone I know, because none of us use things like Quicksilver, et al. Why is everyone being such a snood on this thread?

aranhamo
Oct 23, 2007, 04:13 PM
Shame they didn't listen to the majority of users who keep the dock on the bottom and don't want it 3d.

What majority of users? Most users haven't even seen the 3D dock yet, and most of those that have have only seen screenshots. I think the screenshots look good with the 3D dock, but I'd like to see it in person and in action before I pass judgement.

Zadillo
Oct 23, 2007, 04:13 PM
I wish they would stop wasting their time on the dock. Who the hell uses the dock? It's like people who use the 'Start' menu in Windows. It's all fluff and for show.

Huh? I think the Dock serves a useful purpose..... I much prefer to keep frequently used apps, etc. in my Dock and just load them from there rather than navigating to my apps folder every time (unless you're talking about using something like Quicksilver).

For that matter, I'd say the same thing about the Windows Start menu.

How are either of them "fluff" or simply for "show"?

aranhamo
Oct 23, 2007, 04:14 PM
Who the hell uses the dock?

Practically everyone?

Simmerl
Oct 23, 2007, 04:14 PM
I wish they would stop wasting their time on the dock. Who the hell uses the dock? It's like people who use the 'Start' menu in Windows. It's all fluff and for show.

I have apps I use all the time, like Safari, Mail or iTunes.
I don't want to invoke quicksilver every time a want a new Safari window, so I'm fine with the Dock.

In fact, sometimes I regret Docklings aren't supported anymore. I liked them. XD

Zadillo
Oct 23, 2007, 04:14 PM
Exactly. They need to acquire Quicksilver and bring it to the masses like they did with Coverflow. Bring on the paradigm shift...

Even with Quicksilver, I still find it quicker to click on a Dock icon than typing command-space and starting to type an app name and launching it.

-Zadillo

JohnHawkins
Oct 23, 2007, 04:17 PM
vertigo you will be missed

Frozentoast
Oct 23, 2007, 04:17 PM
Even with Quicksilver, I still find it quicker to click on a Dock icon than typing command-space and starting to type an app name and launching it.

-Zadillo
Change your launcher key from command-space to F13 and use triggers for frequent applications: Ctrl+I iTunes, Ctrl+M Mail for example. This is much faster than using the dock.

Antares
Oct 23, 2007, 04:18 PM
They ruined it! I liked the 3D look. I really hope this is an option that you can select...pick whatever dock display you like. I don't like this flat, 2D look. Thankfully, at least the bottom dock is unchanged.

sananda
Oct 23, 2007, 04:19 PM
Who the hell uses the dock? It's all fluff and for show.

silly me. i really don't know what i've been playing at using the dock.

VaDor
Oct 23, 2007, 04:20 PM
For the people that didn't see the "Shelf Dock" before this new 2D aspect on side.

I like it they way it was in Tiger in bottom, side etc.. but let's see, When I put my hands in Leopard 3d dock I will know if I like it or not...

Taylor C
Oct 23, 2007, 04:21 PM
I'm a bottom-dock user, but I'm really glad Apple listened to this user request for those who requested it (a lot).

NATO
Oct 23, 2007, 04:21 PM
I really like the new look for the dock on the sides, I thought the 3D look was a bit too much and since I use the dock on the far right, it's a welcome improvement.

tallyho
Oct 23, 2007, 04:22 PM
They ruined it! I liked the 3D look. I really hope this is an option that you can select...pick whatever dock display you like. I don't like this flat, 2D look. Thankfully, at least the bottom dock is unchanged.
Yes I agree. Everyone I know who has looked at Leopard screen shots thinks the new dock looks very cool. I would also like to be able to get proper scroll bars in iTunes instead of the funny flattened grey ones. The blue scroll bars are one of the most visually nice things about OS X.

Virgil-TB2
Oct 23, 2007, 04:22 PM
I'm glad that they did this for people who use it on the side, but I love the dock hidden and at the bottom and I would've loved my dock to look like this. I hope it becomes a preference in the future.
-ChasenMe too! :)

This last minute change is so dumb I am finding it very hard to believe Apple actually did it.

In the first place, there was nothing "wrong" with the perspective of the dock on the side because there is no accurate or sensible 3D perspective in the entire system. It's primarily isometric. At the very least, the perspective dock on the side has exactly the same amount of 3-D "realism" as it does on the bottom. If one argues that it's wrong on the side, one must also argue that it's wrong on the bottom. The entire GUi is "wrong" in this way in that light. There are no "lights" that create the drop shadows, no "proper" perspective anywhere, and as others pointed out previously, by the same logic all the icons should fall into a pile at the bottom of your screen.

Secondly, all this has done is introduce an interface inconsistency. That's just plain stupid. The only way around it is to let people choose between the two looks regardless of where their dock is. A good designer designs something based on strong heuristics or design principles, not on how many people whine the loudest about what. Anyone who has actually designed something can tell you that it has nothing to do with just taking a list of "wants" from the users and trying to implement as many as possible. We all know there are going to be a dozen shareware dock modifiers a week after Leopard is out anyway. Apple should have let those people define the "alternative" dock looks IMO.

Finally, when you start to cave into whiners and complainers you open up a Pandora's box of trouble as can be seen on this very thread. Not two seconds after it's done, you already have people wanting even more. Already there are posts whining about how they want the same look on the bottom, and what about those like myself (and others on this thread), that actually like the dock on the side and want the 3-D effect?

If it turns out that this is just an option for either the side or the top, then IMO it's a bit shameful of Apple to do it, but understandable. If however, as this article suggest, this look is only for the dock when it is on the side and cannot be changed, then it's the lamest, dumbest GUI decision I have heard of in a long time.

jboyzh
Oct 23, 2007, 04:22 PM
Now if only they could 'tweak' the Aqua Scroll Bars by updating them at all...

Agreed, these scroll bars need refinement.

milo
Oct 23, 2007, 04:23 PM
I was just curious as to source. If in fact they have access to the full GM, then wouldn't it deserve a more in-depth story than just "oooh, look at the dock on the side."??? Gee, I realize that there are a lot of contributors and anonymous tipsters, etc..

Not if this is the only difference they've been able to find from the previous build.

God^Cent
Oct 23, 2007, 04:23 PM
If apple makes this dock a option for the bottom it would be really nice to see the silver border as a reflective border!:apple:

Agreed, these scroll bars need refinement.

The scroll bars are fine... its iTunes thats the problem.

nagromme
Oct 23, 2007, 04:24 PM
Now this I like!

I never minded the 3D shelf, at the bottom OR the sides, but it did take up a bit more space on the screen (unless you use smaller icons or hide the dock). This new side-dock looks like it takes about the same space as the old one. Nice.

The Dock belongs on the left, safely away from all scrollbars and accidental clicks, and leaving the vertical height of the screen fully available for scrolling long documents :) And hiding is great, but space at left and right is not at such a premium. I'd rather not hide: a visible dock shows me running apps at a glance, and allows me to click my most-used apps much more quickly than I can with a hidden dock.

The bottom dock looks cool, but I'll file it away with the Genie effect (I prefer the nice fast Scale) and magnification: fun, but it's more productive for me not to use them.

In the first place, there was nothing "wrong" with the perspective of the dock on the side because there is no accurate or sensible 3D perspective in the entire system. It's primarily isometric. At the very least, the perspective dock on the side has exactly the same amount of 3-D "realism" as it does on the bottom. If one argues that it's wrong on the side, one must also argue that it's wrong on the bottom. The entire GUi is "wrong" in this way in that light. There are no "lights" that create the drop shadows, no "proper" perspective anywhere, and as others pointed out previously, by the same logic all the icons should fall into a pile at the bottom of your screen.

Agreed. My only objection to the 3D shelf was a little waste of screen space. Visually I like both styles.

Offering a choice in BOTH locations would be nice, but not important to me. There is a choice--that's the main thing.

I do believe this is true, as Daring Fireball hinted at it a couple days ago.

motulist
Oct 23, 2007, 04:24 PM
Oh!

You definitely have to actually click the MacRumors picture to see the larger version to get an idea of what's going on here because the pic on MacRumors front page is highly cropped!

illegalprelude
Oct 23, 2007, 04:25 PM
In previous Leopard builds it looked something like this:
http://www.rogueamoeba.com/utm/posts/Thoughts/sidedock-2007-08-29-16-00

link not working on just me?

Krevnik
Oct 23, 2007, 04:25 PM
Change your launcher key from command-space to F13 and use triggers for frequent applications: Ctrl+I iTunes, Ctrl+M Mail for example. This is much faster than using the dock.

Which is all fine and dandy for power users, but I would still be somewhat pissed if the Dock wasn't polished for those who don't use their own launcher.

Virgil-TB2
Oct 23, 2007, 04:27 PM
I wish they would stop wasting their time on the dock. Who the hell uses the dock? It's like people who use the 'Start' menu in Windows. It's all fluff and for show.I bet if you took a survey, that 95% + of all Apple owners would be users of the dock.

Even if I am off by an astoundingly, ridiculously, impossibly HUGE amount, ... it's still self-evident that more people use it than don't.

slackpacker
Oct 23, 2007, 04:27 PM
Praise the Lord ...Holaluya(sp).... now if I can only turn it off on the bottom as an option.

Call me plain

Virgil-TB2
Oct 23, 2007, 04:31 PM
Yay! no more being forced to keep the dock on the bottom on leopard!Uh, ... who exactly was "forcing" you to use it on the bottom? It was your choice all along.

By doing this, Apple has actually reduced your choices. You always could use it on the side, but now you are forced to use the ugly plain version if you do.

dogtanian
Oct 23, 2007, 04:32 PM
And there was much rejoicing...


EMA

Love it :D

infectbda
Oct 23, 2007, 04:34 PM
I bet if you took a survey, that 95% + of all Apple owners would be users of the dock.

Even if I am off by an astoundingly, ridiculously, impossibly HUGE amount, ... it's still self-evident that more people use it than don't.

Agreed. Sorry to say, but Quicksilver is not for novice users, and I think people forget that. The dock is really easy to understand, so it serves a good purpose. And I like how quickly I can not only launch and switch apps with the dock, but also see what's running just by looking down. It works really well on multiple levels.

skellener
Oct 23, 2007, 04:37 PM
Interesting that the dock is now transparent black instead of transparent white.

MrCrowbar
Oct 23, 2007, 04:37 PM
I wish they would stop wasting their time on the dock. Who the hell uses the dock? It's like people who use the 'Start' menu in Windows. It's all fluff and for show.

Well, you can't really disable either the dock or the start menu in windows. Might as well use it. :-)
Although it's true the start menu in windows is really seldom used. Maybe a little more in Vista since that spotlight thingy is buried in it. I like the dock, it shows you what's running and lots of apps give you nice info right in the dock icon like Mail (number of unread mails) and iCal (the actual date) or Activity Monitor (Mine is set to CPU history), eyeTV (red dot when it's recording something)... All things that you can see right there without having to click something. Icons in the dock can bounce if they require your attention, which is way better than having an annoying popup window getting in your way. I think the dock is a pretty powerful and useful tool. It's like Windows' desktop and start bar unified into one neat bar so you can have your desktop as temporary place for anything. I love putting my stuff there so I can neatly put it into folders later.

Zadillo
Oct 23, 2007, 04:38 PM
Change your launcher key from command-space to F13 and use triggers for frequent applications: Ctrl+I iTunes, Ctrl+M Mail for example. This is much faster than using the dock.

Good to know, although how is this "much faster" than clicking an icon on a dock?

-Zadillo

akac
Oct 23, 2007, 04:39 PM
I am so unhappy about this. I LOVED the 3D dock and I use it on the side. I loved it being 3d on the side. I am simply grrrrrr!!!!

skellener
Oct 23, 2007, 04:39 PM
I wish they would stop wasting their time on the dock. Who the hell uses the dock?
Been using the dock since NeXTSTEP and will continue to. :)

dogtanian
Oct 23, 2007, 04:41 PM
I'm aghast at the response to this minor GUI change! I have to admit I'm struggling to see the 'big deal' so to speak... I would have preferred something a little more functionally substantial perhaps. :rolleyes:

Zadillo
Oct 23, 2007, 04:42 PM
If however, as this article suggest, this look is only for the dock when it is on the side and cannot be changed, then it's the lamest, dumbest GUI decision I have heard of in a long time.

Seriously? :confused:

Does this honestly make THAT much of a difference, the visual appearance of the dock?

lazyrighteye
Oct 23, 2007, 04:42 PM
Nice!

Now if someone can hack it (haxie or otherwise) so that it can look like this on the bottom, I will be ecstatic. :p

Not that it bothers me, per se, but how difficult is it to have a setting in Dock Prefs that offers this level of control? Simple toggle boxes. Or more iPhone "ON/OFF" sliders. Whatever.

Since moving from 9 to X, I feel I have less control over my environment than at any time I have used a Mac (since '91).

Maybe I'm just snippy about the Rockies ticket fiasco...

sananda
Oct 23, 2007, 04:43 PM
Seriously? :confused:


FAB.

CANEHDN
Oct 23, 2007, 04:44 PM
I can't believe that enough people complained that Apple decided to change it. Good for Apple to listen to to customers. I didn't ever think the side Dock was bad on Leopard.

age234
Oct 23, 2007, 04:46 PM
For the people that didn't see the "Shelf Dock" before this new 2D aspect on side.

I like it they way it was in Tiger in bottom, side etc.. but let's see, When I put my hands in Leopard 3d dock I will know if I like it or not...


That's the first screenshot I've seen of the 3D dock on the side.

I think the 3D dock looks better on the side than on the bottom! It's almost too bad Apple did this. It would have been better to make 2D/3D dock a preference for all positions...

yetanotherdave
Oct 23, 2007, 04:46 PM
Good to know, although how is this "much faster" than clicking an icon on a dock?

-Zadillo

Quicksilver, press 4 or 5 keys, application is launching. Time taken, about 0.5 seconds.

Dock, take hand off keyboard, move to mouse, locate item in dock, click it, move hand back to keyboard. Time taken 2 seconds.
That's 4 times faster. :D

kap91
Oct 23, 2007, 04:46 PM
Now this I like!

I never minded the 3D shelf, at the bottom OR the sides, but it did take up a bit more space on the screen (unless you use smaller icons or hide the dock). This new side-dock looks like it takes about the same space as the old one. Nice.



It seems odd to me that people keep thinking this. I have said before in other threads that if you actually take a screenshot of the Leopard 3D dock, place it next to the tiger dock, and make sure that the icons are the same size you will see that the Leopard dock is actually a few pixels shorter than the tiger dock. The Leopard dock takes up less space. :)

Frozentoast
Oct 23, 2007, 04:46 PM
Good to know, although how is this "much faster" than clicking an icon on a dock?

-Zadillo
Your cursor is not always hovering over icons in the dock is it? I assume you do some work. QS cuts out having to navigate with the mouse to a location to click - it's instantaneous wherever you are.

TheSpaz
Oct 23, 2007, 04:47 PM
Not that it bothers me, per se, but how difficult is it to have a setting in Dock Prefs that offers this level of control? Simple toggle boxes. Or more iPhone "ON/OFF" sliders. Whatever.

Since moving from 9 to X, I feel I have less control over my environment than at any time I have used a Mac (since '91).

Maybe I'm just snippy about the Rockies ticket fiasco...

I agree with you. It sucks to be forced into these changes all the time. They hardly ever offer an on/off switch for any of their GUI changes, so people either upgrade and deal with it or don't upgrade and deal with software being incompatible with their Systems or not using their computer's true processing power.

I can't wait for the minor features/enhancements and the speed boost.

zioxide
Oct 23, 2007, 04:47 PM
would it be that hard for them to add a radiobox in system prefs to allow people to use that at the bottom too?

stupid ass apple

MBX
Oct 23, 2007, 04:48 PM
This is so much prettier than the clunky looking 3d glass dock!

I wish this look option was available for bottom too!

PLEASE APPLE, make it available in a next leopard update.

Cloudsurfer
Oct 23, 2007, 04:49 PM
I wish they would stop wasting their time on the dock. Who the hell uses the dock? It's like people who use the 'Start' menu in Windows. It's all fluff and for show.

Uh..., well, considering apps open and minimize in the dock anyway, I'd say it isn't really something you can just ignore.

And I'm certainly not ever going to live only by Spotlight.

dogtanian
Oct 23, 2007, 04:52 PM
Anyone think Apple are going to slip in loads of ON/OFF iPhone style sliders into the OS so that it works well with a full sized Multitouch display they're planning for...?

Radio boxes are clearly more effective in a mouse driven interface as you don't have to click, hold, and drag in the right direction. All points to multi-touch baby!!!!!

age234
Oct 23, 2007, 04:52 PM
Unless you're performing brain surgery or docking the Space Shuttle remotely through your Mac, does the 1.5 seconds or whatever of dock vs Quicksilver really matter enough to even discuss it? :p

tkn
Oct 23, 2007, 04:53 PM
I'm glad they did this, but did they add an option to the dock prefs to switch between the two looks? I think if people want to use the 3D on the side or the 2D on the bottom they should be able to choose to.

This isn't linux, and that would just be an annoying pref to have. Better that they hadn't made the 3D dock in the beginning, but adding a pref is even worse. Frankly I prefer Jobs's my way or the highway approach to interface design.

LoganT
Oct 23, 2007, 04:56 PM
It's called a dock, it just seems to make sense that it would be on the bottom.

HLdan
Oct 23, 2007, 04:57 PM
Now, if we just had "fan out" stacks even with the Dock on the side, I would run out of things to complain about. XD

Somehow I doubt that. :D

runplaysleeprun
Oct 23, 2007, 04:58 PM
I've used clear dock for so long, I don't know how to feel about the new look...

MBX
Oct 23, 2007, 04:59 PM
This isn't linux, and that would just be an annoying pref to have. Better that they hadn't made the 3D dock in the beginning, but adding a pref is even worse. Frankly I prefer Jobs's my way or the highway approach to interface design.

I prefer to have options as every individual is different. If someone doesn't like the 3d-looking dock, why not build in the option to switch to the dark transparent one that is now available for the side?

i'm sure it's not a big deal for apple to do that. but i find it a little arrogant to not give people these options. even windows has more than 1 theme built in.

Frozentoast
Oct 23, 2007, 04:59 PM
Unless you're performing brain surgery or docking the Space Shuttle remotely through your Mac, does the 1.5 seconds or whatever of dock vs Quicksilver really matter enough to even discuss it? :p
If you could place your entire machines contents on your dock then of course... :)

TheSpaz
Oct 23, 2007, 04:59 PM
This isn't linux, and that would just be an annoying pref to have. Better that they hadn't made the 3D dock in the beginning, but adding a pref is even worse. Frankly I prefer Jobs's my way or the highway approach to interface design.

Hey... so you hate choices... why should we all suffer with Job's "My way or the highway" approach? Did you realize that people have different tastes for what looks good and what doesn't? Why not let those people decide what they want to look at all day... I mean, it's their eyes and they have to deal with looking at it while they work... so let them have choices!

On a side note: QuickSilver is extremely annoying and does not improve my workflow. The Dock is ALWAYS right there where I need it and it's easy to access. And as for switching Apps, I just press cmd-tab. I like having my Dock icons in plain view all the time and when I need something, I can get it super quick because I don't have to press a cmd for a window to pop up and then find what I'm looking for and then open it... that seems like a longer way to something.

HLdan
Oct 23, 2007, 05:00 PM
I wish they would stop wasting their time on the dock. Who the hell uses the dock? It's like people who use the 'Start' menu in Windows. It's all fluff and for show.

Who in hell doesn't use the Dock? That's where the apps are. How else you would you launch apps? If you do it through the Finder it's an extra step. If you do it through Spotlight, again an extra step. If you place aliases on the desktop for quick launch then you might as well use the Dock. Stacks is like the Start Button in Windows without all the extra fluff. The Dock rocks!

milo
Oct 23, 2007, 05:02 PM
Your cursor is not always hovering over icons in the dock is it? I assume you do some work. QS cuts out having to navigate with the mouse to a location to click - it's instantaneous wherever you are.

Sure, it cuts out the work of having to move the mouse to the dock, but adds the work of moving your hand to the F13 key. That's not instantaneous either. Maybe if you assigned a keyboard shortcut that was closer to reach. I'd almost say using spotlight would be quicker depending how fast you type.

I can see why apple doesn't want to have prefs for every little graphical option. They want a consistent user interface on macs. I'm sure the option is hidden in the OS but just doesn't have a pref for it, some third party (cocktail?) will figure it out.

Clive At Five
Oct 23, 2007, 05:03 PM
Awesome!!!! It's so good when Apple listen to us. Microsoft never listened to people like this (in my opinion).

I love it when they listen to the users. That's who they develop for anyways.

That looks nice.

It's nice when Apple listens.

Three out of the first three comments in this thread are saying the same thing, now it's my turn:

MID.

RANGE.

TOWER.

Got it?

Excellent.

Nice dock, btw. I like it.

-Clive

milo
Oct 23, 2007, 05:05 PM
Three out of three of the first comments in this thread are saying the same thing, now it's my turn:

MID.

RANGE.

TOWER.

Got it?

Excellent.

Nice dock, btw. I like it.

-Clive

Gotta love the threadjack. And amen to the midtower.

The OS update is looking pretty good, I wonder when Apple will start listening to their customers about desktop hardware?

Much Ado
Oct 23, 2007, 05:07 PM
MID.

RANGE.

TOWER.

+ Proper graphics cards in MBP/MP
+ Updated Apple TV w. 5.1 surround sound etc.
+ Ultraportable Laptop
+ Sir Ian McKellan on the board of directors
+ Timeline in iMovie '08
+ Free dotmac
+ Better dotmac

We could go on for hours ;) Good to know Apple are at least listening, though.

I love the dock now from all...err...angles, by the way.

Steflinsky
Oct 23, 2007, 05:07 PM
je le trouve pas top class le doc du Leopard, mais la c 'est mieux ...non.. mais pourquoi vous repondez pas??

Simmerl
Oct 23, 2007, 05:09 PM
Quicksilver, press 4 or 5 keys, application is launching. Time taken, about 0.5 seconds.

Dock, take hand off keyboard, move to mouse, locate item in dock, click it, move hand back to keyboard. Time taken 2 seconds.
That's 4 times faster. :D

What makes you think I have my hands on the keyboard all the time? :)

Anyway, I use QS for a lot more tasks than launching apps.
Apple should really integrate it into OS X.

Kebabselector
Oct 23, 2007, 05:09 PM
Gotta love the threadjack. And amen to the midtower.

Midtower, yes please. Dock happy with it as it is. If it changes i'll get used to it.

MacsRgr8
Oct 23, 2007, 05:10 PM
What makes you think I have my hands on the keyboard all the time? :)


Don't let's get this thread dirty... :p

offwidafairies
Oct 23, 2007, 05:11 PM
i have always used dock on the side, but i want to use the fan feature so will be using it on the bottom with leopard.

i dont care that much as i hide the dock anyway

id like to learn quicksilver to cut down on time

;)

TPALTony
Oct 23, 2007, 05:13 PM
It's called a dock, it just seems to make sense that it would be on the bottom.

Actually the dock originated on the right side of the screen. That's where it was in NeXtStep, which is where the concept came from.

The top left of the screen was for the menu, which went DOWN the screen (probably to avoid getting sued by Apple!) and you could drag it around.

Instead of the arrow (now the blue bulb in Leopard) there was an ellipsis to indicate a running app.

There's actually no precedent that I am aware of for Dock on the bottom EXCEPT the Windows taskbar (which has many many flaws.) Oh, I suppose the thing at the bottom of the page on the CDE in X-11, and of course the many window managers on X-11 which basically copy the Windows view of the world.

From an HCI perspective, I believe top right is the easiest place for a right handed person to "throw" the mouse to. Try it. Try to move the mouse rapidly to the four corners of the screen and see which one is easiest. :)

I personally dock left, and would like to have the 3D dock there as I happen to prefer it. Who knows, it might be an option. :-) I will go back to docking bottom in the mean time, as I happen to really like the 3D dock.

Each to his own I guess. :)

be well

t

Stridder44
Oct 23, 2007, 05:14 PM
would it be that hard for them to add a radiobox in system prefs to allow people to use that at the bottom too?

stupid ass apple


To this guy and all you other idiots whining over a dock:

http://www-uxsup.csx.cam.ac.uk/~fanf2/hermes/doc/talks/2004-02-ukuug/crybaby.png

Frozentoast
Oct 23, 2007, 05:14 PM
Sure, it cuts out the work of having to move the mouse to the dock, but adds the work of moving your hand to the F13 key. That's not instantaneous either. Maybe if you assigned a keyboard shortcut that was closer to reach. I'd almost say using spotlight would be quicker depending how fast you type.
My hands are constantly on the keyboard so (for me) it is instantaneous. There are obviously two types of users: Point & Clickers and Key Commanders.

Eradicating the dock completely is not a good move, but introducing Quicksilver as a built-in feature would be as it is so much more than an application launcher.

gwangung
Oct 23, 2007, 05:19 PM
My hands are constantly on the keyboard so (for me) it is instantaneous. There are obviously two types of users: Point & Clickers and Key Commanders.

Well, it depends on what kind of work you're doing, doesn't it?

psychofreak
Oct 23, 2007, 05:20 PM
Eradicating the dock completely is not a good move, but introducing Quicksilver as a built-in feature would be as it is so much more than an application launcher.

And hopefully it will be much better once it goes open source...if you want QS to feel more built in, check out this (http://waferbaby.com/posts/waferbaby/2007/10/11/ditching-finder-app) guide on replacing the Finder with it.

I really hope the dock looks good on the side, from this one picture, it seems worse than the Tiger one...

roland.g
Oct 23, 2007, 05:20 PM
There was a great freeware app for tiger called cleardock that allowed you to get rid of the dock color and frame so that the apps just floated there without the background and frame. You could also change the color of the carrot of launched apps so that they showed up better against your desktop. I changed mine to dark red to see them better.

zioxide
Oct 23, 2007, 05:22 PM
To this guy and all you other idiots whining over a dock:

oh screw you.

The dock is ugly. The transparency and reflections are just wasting your computers resources. If you like it, fine. But Apple should at least add an option for people to customize some parts of the damn OS.

farmboy
Oct 23, 2007, 05:23 PM
Your cursor is not always hovering over icons in the dock is it? I assume you do some work. QS cuts out having to navigate with the mouse to a location to click - it's instantaneous wherever you are.

I work on my computer all day, doing everything people do on computers.

I defy anyone to prove that they are so intensely productive and efficient that they are keyboarding nonstop, with no pauses to...umm, move a mouse. ********.

NOBODY works like that, even under a deadline (been there many times). For several minutes at a time, maybe.

Maybe Quicksilver is great, but don't give us this crap that saving a half second (if true) makes you more efficient or represents some quantum leap over other methods of task performance.

MacFly123
Oct 23, 2007, 05:24 PM
I prefer the 3D look (although I've never seen how that would look on the side). This flat 2D look seems poorly designed... what's with the thick white border around it? I like the Tiger 2D dock better.

Its not a thick white border, its thin, and Tiger has it too. You just can't see it as much because the rest of the dock is white as well not shaded like this new one. I think it looks nice, and I like the rounded corners. But, I LOVE the 3D dock and can't wait to have it and the new sleek sexy look. I like it on auto-hide on the bottum, I wouldn't ever wanna use my dock on the side. There is so much more width and space on the bottum for icons. Is the whole side thing just a Linux users thing or what?

metallicaisgood
Oct 23, 2007, 05:24 PM
If apple makes this dock a option for the bottom it would be really nice to see the silver border as a reflective border!:apple:



The scroll bars are fine... its iTunes thats the problem.

The scroll bars are certainly fine, for Tiger that is. It's not that they need iTunes/iLife scroll bars.. It's that they need scroll bars and buttons that match the dock and menu bar. Aqua is really dated now, especially with the drastically changed menu bar and dock.

offwidafairies
Oct 23, 2007, 05:24 PM
There was a great freeware app for tiger called cleardock that allowed you to get rid of the dock color and frame so that the apps just floated there without the background and frame. You could also change the color of the carrot of launched apps so that they showed up better against your desktop. I changed mine to dark red to see them better.

that sounds cool :D

Padriac
Oct 23, 2007, 05:26 PM
Dock: whatever, it's all improper perspective tomfoolery.

Quicksilver vs. Dock: These are fundamentally different things, almost incomparable. One is a browser and one is a search tool. These are different mindsets and thus completely different tools. One requires you to *recognize* what you want and the other requires that you *recall* what you want.

Then there's the keyboard vs. mouse aspect. A coder will like the keyboard more, somebody working in design (photoshop, etc.) will probably like mouse-actions more. Again, neither is inherently better.

As far as efficiency, it will depend on what you're doing and what you are going to try and do next. You can dream up instances where either is more efficient than the other. Even then, it's on the order of fractions of a second either way.

At the end of the day a browser (the dock) is more intuitive, and thus more satisfying to Joe and Jane Anybody. Have we all forgotten why we moved to the GUI approach in the first place?

That said, between the Dock and improved Spotlight, I think Apple doesn't see much compelling reason to add yet another layer that is even less likely to be used than what's already there.

ATMB
Oct 23, 2007, 05:26 PM
it seems that in usenet there's something for who's waiting for his leopard shipping.... :D

Foxglove9
Oct 23, 2007, 05:28 PM
That's awesome Apple gives you the 2-D dock option, it was the one thing about Leopard I wasn't crazy about. Woo hoo!

heh...secret feature. Sounds like it. I'm sure we are in for a few more surprises once it is in everyones hands.

MacFly123
Oct 23, 2007, 05:30 PM
The scroll bars are certainly fine, for Tiger that is. It's not that they need iTunes/iLife scroll bars.. It's that they need scroll bars and buttons that match the dock and menu bar.

I love Leopard and Aqua, but I will admit with the scroll bars and buttons it is all kind of mixed together now. I don't like the iTunes scroll bars, but they need to make it all consistent. iLife '08 has different scroll bars now too. And all this after Apple goes off about a consistent look in all programs etc.

And while we are talking about interfaces. APPLE FIX SHAKE AND COLOR.... Dear GOD I have never seen uglier non-apple like interfaces that are confusing and PC like. Make them like the rest of Final Cut Studio for crying out loud.

psychofreak
Oct 23, 2007, 05:34 PM
Quicksilver vs. Dock: These are fundamentally different things, almost incomparable. One is a browser and one is a search tool. These are different mindsets and thus completely different tools. One requires you to *recognize* what you want and the other requires that you *recall* what you want.

The point being made is that many QS users never use the dock: including me, quite a few have only Finder and Trash on the dock. I can look through my Apps folder in QS if I want t recognize and not recall :)

NealSpencer
Oct 23, 2007, 05:36 PM
:apple: Does anyone know if the Leopard software will provide for more efficient use of the new duo-core intel processors that are in the Apple Pro and going into other Macs??? I would like to see a speed increase and more efficient use of the two duo-core processors in my computer.:D

Orng
Oct 23, 2007, 05:37 PM
... but is it supposed to let you slide your apps underneath the dock like that?

I can't do that when the dock is at the bottom of the screen...

I vaguely remember not being able to slide apps under the dock, but I think that might have been Jaguar or earlier. I can do it now. But I also tend to have dock hiding turned on. I also have it reduced as small as it will go, and then I turn on magnification, because the only time I have to see it clearly is when I'm clicking on it.

Quicksilver, press 4 or 5 keys, application is launching. Time taken, about 0.5 seconds.

Dock, take hand off keyboard, move to mouse, locate item in dock, click it, move hand back to keyboard. Time taken 2 seconds.
That's 4 times faster. :D

Any time I have both hands on the keyboard, I'm typing, therefore not switching apps, but if I do have to switch apps, I use command+tab.
My non-typing position is one hand on the keys, one on the mouse or tablet pen. So that dock is pretty darn convenient.

psychofreak
Oct 23, 2007, 05:37 PM
64bit Intel Macs (especially the Mac Pro) will see speed increases due to better efficiency and optimization :)

Digitalclips
Oct 23, 2007, 05:38 PM
... but is it supposed to let you slide your apps underneath the dock like that?

I can't do that when the dock is at the bottom of the screen...

I can...??

decksnap
Oct 23, 2007, 05:43 PM
From an HCI perspective, I believe top right is the easiest place for a right handed person to "throw" the mouse to. Try it. Try to move the mouse rapidly to the four corners of the screen and see which one is easiest. :)


But it's not just about where you can get your mouse to the quickest- your brain has to actually interpret the icons on the dock and confirm the one you're looking for. It's kind of like reading a line of text... I can 'read' my dock much easier horizontally at the bottom of the screen than I can vertically on the side.

SkyBell
Oct 23, 2007, 05:43 PM
Wirelessly posted (Motorola-V3m Obigo/Q04C1 MMP/2.0 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1)

Is it possible to turn off the 3d dock altogether? because it annoys the hell out of me

Wayfarer
Oct 23, 2007, 05:46 PM
FAB.

DITTO. I very much so quite concur.

iSimx
Oct 23, 2007, 05:47 PM
unfortunately you cant please everyone. There will always be people who prefer the older design and others prefering the new design.

psychofreak
Oct 23, 2007, 05:49 PM
unfortunately you cant please everyone. There will always be people who prefer the older design and others prefering the new design.

That is why having options in System Preferences can be a good thing...this seems like a bit of a rush job, and I would like not to have to use a haxie to go to the Tiger dock...

simX
Oct 23, 2007, 05:50 PM
I don't see how the previous 3D dock-at-the-side look was a "visual inconsistency". If anything, NOW it's inconsistent, because the Dock has different looks depending on where you put it.

The whole gravity argument is the lamest thing ever. If there's supposedly gravity on your screen, why don't your windows all fall to the bottom? That would be the logical conclusion if you think that items in the 3D dock-at-the-side should fall off as well. Furthermore, there's no reason to think that this visual change changes the concept of gravity -- why don't they fall off anyway? They still have to be "nailed" to the side.

Actually, there's no concept of "gravity" in a virtual interface, so there was no "inconsistency" to begin with. It was just a bunch of whiny users who don't like the look. That's fine -- but instead of insisting on different looks based on where the Dock is positioned, why not... *gasp*... have a hidden preference like everything else?

Sheesh.

BTW
Oct 23, 2007, 05:50 PM
Awesome!!!! It's so good when Apple listen to us. Microsoft never listened to people like this (in my opinion).

10.5 seems all the sweeter.

And my first first post. :D


A little spit and polish always helps. :)

Orng
Oct 23, 2007, 05:51 PM
Well I just got my Amiga 1000 emulator up and running so I don't need no stinking dock any more anyway. Leopard shmeopard, I have Workbench!
:D

seriously though, I think I prefered the grass to the nebula, who's with me?

Marx55
Oct 23, 2007, 05:51 PM
Where does the 9A581's Dock Visual Tweaks screenshot come from? THE RETAIL VERSION? I thought that such build was Apple internal and that as that it was not legal to post screenshots of it until day 26th of month October of year 2007.

Project
Oct 23, 2007, 05:54 PM
Should be really easy to toggle between the two styles for left, right and bottom placement in the Terminal

milo
Oct 23, 2007, 05:55 PM
The scroll bars are certainly fine, for Tiger that is. It's not that they need iTunes/iLife scroll bars.. It's that they need scroll bars and buttons that match the dock and menu bar. Aqua is really dated now, especially with the drastically changed menu bar and dock.

They don't NEED any of those things. What they do need in a scoll bar is one that scrolls, and they have that regardless of what it looks like. If you'd like it to look different, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. But lets not confuse NEED with quibbling over which aesthetics are more pretty to you.

:apple: Does anyone know if the Leopard software will provide for more efficient use of the new duo-core intel processors that are in the Apple Pro and going into other Macs??? I would like to see a speed increase and more efficient use of the two duo-core processors in my computer.:D

Yes.

elppa
Oct 23, 2007, 05:56 PM
I hope there is a nice transition between the two, at the moment the Dock just switches from bottom to left or right. A simple fade our then in would be cool. Utilising Core Animation to have the icons fly from the bottom to their new position on the side would be even better…

Anyone think Apple are going to slip in loads of ON/OFF iPhone style sliders into the OS so that it works well with a full sized Multitouch display they're planning for...?

Radio boxes are clearly more effective in a mouse driven interface as you don't have to click, hold, and drag in the right direction. All points to multi-touch baby!!!!!

The On / Off switch is probably there because:

A) It better maps to real life, we have lots of On / Off switches in real life, I have never seen a radio button in real life.
B) It looks cool. <-- This is particularly important!

I wouldn't read more into it than that. Having said that multi-touch in some form is almost inevitable on Macs at some stage.

Back to the thread, people who mention quicksilver forget two things:

A) You can't see what's running at a glance.
B) New users might not remember the name of the app. They just know to click on the big blue compass for the internet and the postage stamp for email (Like my Mum and Dad).

It's the whole Recall Vs Recognition debate. Recognition generally wins hands down, it is far faster.

Quicksilver is a power users tool, and a darned fine one at that, but it is not the end-all solution for everyone. The Dock is perfectly adequate for many users.

Having Quicksilver as default would be a disaster, CMD/CTRL - SPACE would be the new CTRL - ALT - DELETE. “You need to do a two fingered key combination just to launch an app!” the critics would exclaim. And they would be right.

Anorion
Oct 23, 2007, 05:56 PM
This is a really nice dock style. I hope you can make it look like this in the bottom. Much neater and cleaner.

Not that the default look is at all bad, I just like this better~

l0t0
Oct 23, 2007, 05:56 PM
And what about scrollbars and bottoms? A lot of people are talking abouit it, but it seems that Apple really donīt care. Delayings and more delayings for this...
I laught with "Over +300 features" (I think it should be 10 or 20 after reading)
but they canīt do a unified UI, maybe in 10.6 or 10.7 ?
I still remember rumors about a completly new redesing Ui, "Illuminous" or something like that. Where is it?
Anyway, itīs our fault, weīll go to buy Leopard this friday like stupids.

Congratulations Apple.

the.snitch
Oct 23, 2007, 05:59 PM
woohoo! far better. Thanks John Gruber for your incessant bitching re: the dock. It looks like Apple is listening. :cool:

/dock on the side lover

milo
Oct 23, 2007, 06:01 PM
Where does the 9A581's Dock Visual Tweaks screenshot come from? THE RETAIL VERSION? I thought that such build was Apple internal and that as that it was not legal to post screenshots of it until day 26th of month October of year 2007.

It's not "not legal", it just breaks an NDA. Since MR didn't sign an NDA, they're not in any danger of getting into trouble.

And since the build has leaked, screenshots are the least of apple's worries.

displaced
Oct 23, 2007, 06:02 PM
I'm so, so, sorry... but I can't resist:

http://www.crazyapplerumors.com/?p=943

Orng
Oct 23, 2007, 06:04 PM
A) It better maps to real life, we have lots of On / Off switches in real life, I have never seen a radio button in real life.


You don't look around much, do you? :p

http://www.thegoldenera.net/images/Elevator_panel.jpg

SiliconAddict
Oct 23, 2007, 06:11 PM
Awesome!!!! It's so good when Apple listen to us. Microsoft never listened to people like this (in my opinion).

10.5 seems all the sweeter.



Umm bullcrap. :rolleyes: Have you ever been on a conference call with Apple's development team who asks YOU questions on what you want? If not I'd like to introduce you to the System Management Server team or pretty much any of MS's corp development teams.

And what about scrollbars and bottoms? A lot of people are talking abouit it, but it seems that Apple really donīt care. Delayings and more delayings for this...
I laught with "Over +300 features" (I think it should be 10 or 20 after reading)
but they canīt do a unified UI, maybe in 10.6 or 10.7 ?
I still remember rumors about a completly new redesing Ui, "Illuminous" or something like that. Where is it?
Anyway, itīs our fault, weīll go to buy Leopard this friday like stupids.

Congratulations Apple.

Highlighted for relevance. :rolleyes: Apple NEVER. Not once mentioned a new UI.

motulist
Oct 23, 2007, 06:13 PM
we have lots of On / Off switches in real life, I have never seen a radio button in real life.

You don't look around much, do you? :p

http://www.thegoldenera.net/images/Elevator_panel.jpg


http://www.abledata.com/product_images/images/04A0439.jpg

dernhelm
Oct 23, 2007, 06:13 PM
You don't look around much, do you? :p



Ah you youngins, didn't think to use a picture of a radio? Or haven't you seen one of those?
;)

gmanrique
Oct 23, 2007, 06:16 PM
I am with you. In fact, that is my default picture now.

Well I just got my Amiga 1000 emulator up and running so I don't need no stinking dock any more anyway. Leopard shmeopard, I have Workbench!
:D

seriously though, I think I prefered the grass to the nebula, who's with me?

milo
Oct 23, 2007, 06:19 PM
http://www.abledata.com/product_images/images/04A0439.jpg

Those aren't technically "radio buttons" like in an OS, they're just buttons. And the buttons on an elevator work more like GUI check boxes since you can select multiple ones at a time.

Radio buttons mean that selecting one deselects one or more other ones, and neither of those works like that. A better example would be an old radio where selecting FM makes the AM button pop out.

elppa
Oct 23, 2007, 06:20 PM
You don't look around much, do you? :p

http://www.thegoldenera.net/images/Elevator_panel.jpg

A radio button has a very unique property. Only one button from the set can be selected at any one time. Those just look like standard buttons to me. If anyone can think of an example of a real-life radio button, please let me know, because I'm lost.

motulist
Oct 23, 2007, 06:23 PM
Those aren't technically "radio buttons" like in an OS, they're just buttons. And the buttons on an elevator work more like GUI check boxes since you can select multiple ones at a time.

Radio buttons mean that selecting one deselects one or more other ones, and neither of those works like that. A better example would be an old radio where selecting FM makes the AM button pop out.

Um, you're wrong. You can't be both watching the broadcast TV show and the DVD player movie, selecting one automatically deselects the other. You can't both be watching channel 2 and channel 4 at the same time, selecting one deselects the other.

CavemanUK
Oct 23, 2007, 06:28 PM
Well I just got my Amiga 1000 emulator up and running so I don't need no stinking dock any more anyway. Leopard shmeopard, I have Workbench!
:D

seriously though, I think I prefered the grass to the nebula, who's with me?

Workbench Rocks! and it even had resolution independance! way back in the early 90's!

MacFly123
Oct 23, 2007, 06:28 PM
I wish they would stop wasting their time on the dock. Who the hell uses the dock? It's like people who use the 'Start' menu in Windows. It's all fluff and for show.

Um... EVERYONE, one click is sure as hell a lot better than 5 layers through a menu in Windows LOL. i LOVE the dock and I don't clutter it with useless things, only the things I use all the time.

bradc
Oct 23, 2007, 06:33 PM
OS X 10.5 Leopard is already out on Torrents & Newsgroups! Someone is going to get fired!

Krevnik
Oct 23, 2007, 06:33 PM
A radio button has a very unique property. Only one button from the set can be selected at any one time. Those just look like standard buttons to me. If anyone can think of an example of a real-life radio button, please let me know, because I'm lost.

How about a radio button? ;)

This might be before your time, but radio presets used to be mapped to buttons. You could only select one at a time.

psychofreak
Oct 23, 2007, 06:35 PM
Another set of buttons that many people use every day and only one can be pressed at a time:

http://www.odeecompany.net/imgodee/promotional-four-color-ballpoint-pen.jpg

elppa
Oct 23, 2007, 06:37 PM
Um, you're wrong. You can't be both watching the broadcast TV show and the DVD player movie, selecting one automatically deselects the other. You can't both be watching channel 2 and channel 4 at the same time, selecting one deselects the other.

The buttons don't physically change appearance though when selected / deselected. to indicate your selection, unless I am mistaken.

motulist
Oct 23, 2007, 06:40 PM
The buttons don't physically change appearance though when selected / deselected. to indicate your selection, unless I am mistaken.

There's absolutely a visual change showing that you've got one choice selected and not the other, it's on your TV screen. (not that that has anything significant to do with how a radio button works anyway)

Krevnik
Oct 23, 2007, 06:40 PM
The buttons don't physically change appearance though when selected / deselected. to indicate your selection, unless I am mistaken.

They used to (and still do, via lights on most receivers/amps). The term 'radio button' comes from a time when buttons were a little more tactile than they are today.

tusker
Oct 23, 2007, 06:48 PM
Another set of buttons that many people use every day and only one can be pressed at a time:

http://www.odeecompany.net/imgodee/promotional-four-color-ballpoint-pen.jpg

Good example....wait...how the heck did this become a thread about radio buttons?

Anyway, this new look for the dock on the sides reminds me of the way stacks looks in grid mode, w/ the outline and darker background color.

elppa
Oct 23, 2007, 06:51 PM
This has been an education for me!

Perhaps Apple wants to bring its UI elements bang up to date.

TuffLuffJimmy
Oct 23, 2007, 06:54 PM
I skimmed most of this thread and haven't found anyone else thinking the same thing as me: Does this mean that they got rid of the blue scroll bars in favor of the itunes bars?

(I hope they did!)

visual tweaks are so nice.

skwoytek
Oct 23, 2007, 06:55 PM
My favorite part of the dock change: No reflections.

Reflections, in no way: Guide me, inform me or enlighten me as to anything relevant to using Mac OS X.

In fact, reflections only confuse and complicate the UI.

http://appleservedup.com/images/leopard.png

psychofreak
Oct 23, 2007, 06:56 PM
I skimmed most of this thread and haven't found anyone else thinking the same thing as me: Does this mean that they got rid of the blue scroll bars in favor of the itunes bars?

(I hope they did!)

visual tweaks are so nice.
No, I wish they had though...

MacFly123
Oct 23, 2007, 06:57 PM
Change your launcher key from command-space to F13 and use triggers for frequent applications: Ctrl+I iTunes, Ctrl+M Mail for example. This is much faster than using the dock.

How is THREE keys faster than ONE click??? :rolleyes:

Darkroom
Oct 23, 2007, 06:57 PM
so it appears as if we'll have an option to display a 3D dock or keep the look of the current 2D dock... but i doubt apple is "listening"... please, they pay world class designers a LOT of money to design their products... the opinions of 15 year old macrumors users == nil.

paja
Oct 23, 2007, 06:58 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Apple's Gold Master (Retail) version of Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard has at least one visual tweak over the developer seeds. It appears Apple has listened to user feedback about the visual inconsistency with dock items appearing on a 3d shelf on the Left and Right side of the screen.


http://images.macrumors.com/article/2007/10/23/squaredock.jpg


Apple has updated the Dock so that it has a 2-Dimensional appearance when it resides on the side of the screen. When residing on the bottom of the screen, the Dock retains the 3d shelf (http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/desktop.html) appearance.

Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard will officially launch on October 26th at 6 p.m. If you haven't already ordered online (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FK88JK?tag=weeno&camp=0&creative=0&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=B000FK88JK&adid=1MD6ZAC88T1F7SWKZWPF&), MacRumors readers are organizing meetups (http://forums.macrumors.com/forumdisplay.php?f=114) in their local regions.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/23/mac-os-x-leopard-9a581s-dock-visual-tweaks/)

This must have been the big secret feature his Steveness was talking about.:D

LOL

Love it now! I dislike the 3D Dock... has that Gumby Bear look. Ugh!

------------------------------------------------------
MBP 2Ghz / 8GB iPhone / 8GB Nano / :apple:TV

crossifixio
Oct 23, 2007, 07:02 PM
apple store uk is down wonder what they are updating???

matticus008
Oct 23, 2007, 07:02 PM
I keep running into an increasing number of former Windows "power users" pining for options to rice out their desktops. It's absurd for a number of reasons, not the least significant of which being Apple's overall philosophy--they produce cohesive and complete products which are designed in the truest sense of the word. They're not going to go all KDE on configuration options. The design is meant to be consistent, clean, and universal. Just look at all the horrible Firefox themes out there that don't implement everything properly or just give up in certain corners. Most people with "customized" desktops have a horrible mismatch of elements and no sense of design, and that's not the image Apple wants for its products.

Fixed, limited configurations are the norm (cars, small electrics, furniture), particularly from vendors that have an image to emphasize and maintain. For the people that really want it, there are third party utilities like ShapeShifter.

Instead of complaining about how Apple won't let you mix and match to your heart's content and getting so defensive about your fight for ugly skins, maybe consider that part of the reason some of us are Apple customers is just for that exercise of restraint. Knock yourself out with ShapeShifter...but just accept that Apple goes for aesthetics and simplicity, and that comes at a cost. We're okay with it, and it doesn't have anything to do with loving every single detail and change Apple produces. It has to do with a different approach to personal computing that doesn't involve being everything to everyone.
It's not "not legal", it just breaks an NDA.
That's the same thing. A fully perfected and executed contract is law. Breaking it is unlawful ("not legal").
Since MR didn't sign an NDA, they're not in any danger of getting into trouble.
True enough. I think the question pertained more to the person who posted the screen shot, though, and not to MR's reposting.

alveryx
Oct 23, 2007, 07:05 PM
That's interesting.

Nerdowl
Oct 23, 2007, 07:11 PM
apple store uk is down wonder what they are updating???

Been down for ages... still down now. (*is not trying to visit to continuously check on preorder of Leopard... not at all* :o )


As to the topic of this thread - I think a friend of mine will like that the dock isn't 3D on the side anymore. I have mine at the bottom anyway so doesn't bother me. Though it's nice to see :apple: listening :)

Bensch
Oct 23, 2007, 07:19 PM
Furthermore, there's no reason to think that this visual change changes the concept of gravity -- why don't they fall off anyway? They still have to be "nailed" to the side.

Because they are lying flat on the Dock, like in Tiger.

The metaphor changed in Leopard: now icons are standing on a 3D dock. that just doesn't work on the sides of the screen. it looks weird.

bensch

iSlave
Oct 23, 2007, 07:20 PM
One question though....where did the Leopard 'grass' wallpaper go? I thought that was gonna be the new look. Is the space background official now?? :confused:

psychofreak
Oct 23, 2007, 07:23 PM
One question though....where did the Leopard 'grass' wallpaper go? I thought that was gonna be the new look. Is the space background official now?? :confused:

Yes, it has been for quite a while...

inkswamp
Oct 23, 2007, 07:26 PM
It's good that Apple listens to the feedback, but the problem is that there are many of us out here who pin our dock to the side who were looking forward to that 3D look. I didn't have any particular problem with visualizing it on the side either as I'm not so inflexible in my thinking that I can't imagine the dock just being "sticky" when it comes to icons and therefore it would work in that location just fine.

Now that isn't available because a lot of people complained about it. I wonder how many of those complaining actually put their dock on the side.

I hope Apple gives an option somewhere to use that look on the side anyway. I wanted it.

Can
Oct 23, 2007, 07:26 PM
Very nice final tweak.

So does this mean that someone got their leopard early? Or is this developer, torrent or "inside" source related?

chelsel
Oct 23, 2007, 07:28 PM
. Sorry to say, but Quicksilver is not for novice users

How is it not for novice users?? All you have to do is remember the name of the program you want to start and hit enter...

inkswamp
Oct 23, 2007, 07:33 PM
Those aren't technically "radio buttons" like in an OS, they're just buttons. And the buttons on an elevator work more like GUI check boxes since you can select multiple ones at a time.

Radio buttons mean that selecting one deselects one or more other ones, and neither of those works like that. A better example would be an old radio where selecting FM makes the AM button pop out.

I'd always assumed Apple got the radio button idea from the antique light switch where you had two buttons for on and off, each of which toggled the other when pressed. Google isn't turning up an image of one in the faceplate, but here's the actual switch itself.

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/215YEAC75KL._AA160_.jpg

notjustjay
Oct 23, 2007, 07:33 PM
Err... you can do this in Tiger...


Yeah, when I got home I realized... oops, yes you can.

What I was thinking of, at the time I wrote the post, is that you can't resize an app to go below and behind the dock (e.g. Safari).

Oops.

sdf
Oct 23, 2007, 07:35 PM
Shame they didn't listen to the majority of users who keep the dock on the bottom and don't want it 3d.

Joke, right? The majority of users probably don't even know what's coming in Leopard, let alone the exact appearance of the dock. And if they didn't, they wouldn't care.

Spinnetti
Oct 23, 2007, 07:43 PM
Of course I'll like up with the faithful to buy it, but I do hope they fixed some of the many small bugs in OSX while they were in the code, like if you have your dock on the left and don't auto hide, new windows opened don't take into account the dock so that the close and minimize buttons are now under the dock and you can't get to them without moving the window or using a shortcut. Not a show stopper, but annoying anyway. I have a 4 page list of bugs (some serious like copying too many files to the desktop fatally crashes finder) that I'll regression test with the new OS and report through the bug reporter if they are still there...

MacTO
Oct 23, 2007, 07:45 PM
Can't wait to see it myself! Excellent. :)

Cheers. :apple:

SeaFox
Oct 23, 2007, 07:54 PM
Think how much hand-wringing could be saved if they'd just make it invisible to start with. :rolleyes:

rstansby
Oct 23, 2007, 07:55 PM
... but is it supposed to let you slide your apps underneath the dock like that?

I can't do that when the dock is at the bottom of the screen...

What OS are you using? I just moved my dock to the bottom of the sceen (in 10.4.10). The window that was now behind the dock resized so that it wouldn't be under the dock, however I can still move any window so that it is behind the dock.

izzle22
Oct 23, 2007, 08:17 PM
What OS are you using? I just moved my dock to the bottom of the sceen (in 10.4.10). The window that was now behind the dock resized so that it wouldn't be under the dock, however I can still move any window so that it is behind the dock.

Well... Safari and mail will NOT go behind the dock no matter ho hard you try.

guzhogi
Oct 23, 2007, 08:18 PM
What OS are you using? I just moved my dock to the bottom of the sceen (in 10.4.10). The window that was now behind the dock resized so that it wouldn't be under the dock, however I can still move any window so that it is behind the dock.

You can also set the dock to automatically hide and when you put the mouse over it, the dock appears over any open windows near where you have it and the windows don't move.

bradc
Oct 23, 2007, 08:21 PM
Does this mean that Leopard Gold Master has been leaked?



Yeah man, it's up on Torrent sites,

Nerdowl
Oct 23, 2007, 08:36 PM
Well... Safari and mail will NOT go behind the dock no matter ho hard you try.

Mail does :confused:

*checks* and actually so does Safari.

Unless you mean by resizing in which case no they don't but neither do any other programs I can think of.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y20/Claire42/Snapshot2007-10-2402-32-50.jpg

izzle22
Oct 23, 2007, 08:40 PM
Mail does :confused:

*checks* and actually so does Safari.

Unless you mean by resizing in which case no they don't but neither do any other programs I can think of.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y20/Claire42/Snapshot2007-10-2402-32-50.jpg

Yes and no. You can resize iTunes to go behind the dock but not Safari. But I do stand corrected as if you hide the dock and resize Safari and then unhide dock Safari is behind the dock.:eek: Never knew that all these years. Oh Well.

That-Is-Bull
Oct 23, 2007, 08:42 PM
Well... Safari and mail will NOT go behind the dock no matter ho hard you try.

Wasn't that hard.

Edit: Damn, would've posted it first if I didn't have such an extremely horrible ISP. Don't ever, ever think about touching HughesNet. Dial-Up is much better and a tenth of the price.

Mozutaka
Oct 23, 2007, 08:43 PM
Joke, right? The majority of users probably don't even know what's coming in Leopard, let alone the exact appearance of the dock. And if they didn't, they wouldn't care.

Majority of users who keep the dock on the bottom and don't want it 3d. Not majority of users. This change was made because of user complaints, many of whom wanted an option for the bottom. Try reading before you knock someone's post.

SiliconAddict
Oct 23, 2007, 08:44 PM
+ Proper graphics cards in MBP/MP
+ Updated Apple TV w. 5.1 surround sound etc.
+ Ultraportable Laptop
+ Sir Ian McKellan on the board of directors
+ Timeline in iMovie '08
+ Free dotmac
+ Better dotmac

We could go on for hours ;) Good to know Apple are at least listening, though.

I love the dock now from all...err...angles, by the way.


I got one. How about real speakers in the MBP? Forget about trying to hear ANYTHING in a crowded room. The speakers in the MBP are the most pathetic in the industry IMHO and boil down to Jobs's borderline fetish for 1" thick. And please people. Don't tell me to carry speakers. What is the point of a 1" laptop if I need to carry a 4"x8"x4" speaker set with me.

PS- Amen to better .Mac. I like Photo Galleries however WTF is up with not being able to put a description alongside the photo? Or better yet for photos mailed in being able to give credit for the originator. Virtually no thought was put into it beyond simply how pretty they can make the GUI and how close it can be tied to iPhoto; which while important isn't the only thing they should have focused on.

Majority of users who keep the dock on the bottom and don't want it 3d. Not majority of users. This change was made because of user complaints, many of whom wanted an option for the bottom. Try reading before you knock someone's post.

:rolleyes: Only the anal retentive give a crap about a "flourish". Or, for that other person who was freaking out, scroll bar colors for that matter. Neither of those things impedes the use of the OS. There are potentially other bigger issues

Mozutaka
Oct 23, 2007, 08:45 PM
Joke, right? The majority of users probably don't even know what's coming in Leopard, let alone the exact appearance of the dock. And if they didn't, they wouldn't care.

Majority of users who keep the dock on the bottom and don't want it 3d. Not majority of users. This change was made because of user complaints, many of whom wanted an option for the bottom as well. Try actually reading before you knock someone's post.

Also, your statement is bunk. What data do you have that suggests most users buying Leopard aren't knowledgeable about it or don't care about the appearance of their OS?

macguymike
Oct 23, 2007, 08:46 PM
Personally, I'm more irritated at the lack of hierarchical pop-up folders in the dock than any of the aesthetics issues.

fattito
Oct 23, 2007, 09:08 PM
Amazon is bundling it with iLife '08, which is included with Leopard.

Check out the Amazon page for Leopard. They offer a discounted bundle with 10.5 and iLife '08. Leopard comes with iLife. I tried to digg the Amazon page, but it didn't work. Somebody blog it and then digg it. Don't want some pore unsuspecting people to buy both!

rendezvouscp
Oct 23, 2007, 09:13 PM
Leopard doesn't come with iLife (only iTunes).
-Chasen

panamajack
Oct 23, 2007, 09:17 PM
Quicksilver, press 4 or 5 keys, application is launching. Time taken, about 0.5 seconds.

Dock, take hand off keyboard, move to mouse, locate item in dock, click it, move hand back to keyboard. Time taken 2 seconds.
That's 4 times faster. :D

For the record, I use Quicksilver and have a unwieldy dock filled with 20 apps/ folders (recently converted to the left side). QS is perhaps faster when both hands are on the keyboard ... but if god prohibit I'm already USING THE MOUSE than it's faster using the dock !

QS advocates tend to stink of lintardism. QS is a fantastic program (when it's not acting all slow...) but it's designed by nerds, built for nerds, and QS evangelists need to understand that. For novices I think LaunchBar (unfortunately not free) is a better choice.

As for the dock, me thinks Apple will simply present the different looks as preference options for the dock ... sooner or later.

metallicaisgood
Oct 23, 2007, 09:58 PM
It's weird how the people that say the scroll bars and buttons don't need to change are also the people that say Apple is the master of consistent UI design. Windows is pretty much just as consistent as Mac OS' UI..

BWhaler
Oct 23, 2007, 10:15 PM
Amazon is bundling it with iLife '08, which is included with Leopard.

Check out the Amazon page for Leopard. They offer a discounted bundle with 10.5 and iLife '08. Leopard comes with iLife. I tried to digg the Amazon page, but it didn't work. Somebody blog it and then digg it. Don't want some pore unsuspecting people to buy both!

iLife doesn't come with Leopard. :rolleyes:

Fluffymuff
Oct 23, 2007, 10:24 PM
This last minute change is so dumb I am finding it very hard to believe Apple actually did it.

In the first place, there was nothing "wrong" with the perspective of the dock on the side because there is no accurate or sensible 3D perspective in the entire system. It's primarily isometric. At the very least, the perspective dock on the side has exactly the same amount of 3-D "realism" as it does on the bottom. If one argues that it's wrong on the side, one must also argue that it's wrong on the bottom. The entire GUi is "wrong" in this way in that light. There are no "lights" that create the drop shadows, no "proper" perspective anywhere, and as others pointed out previously, by the same logic all the icons should fall into a pile at the bottom of your screen.
In it's own way, this paragraph is like the 3d side dock: lacking internal logic, self-contradictory, confused. "One" doesn't have to argue it's wrong on the bottom if it's wrong on the side - they're two different perspectives. The bottom is a shelf with icons poised sturdily on top of it, waiting for you to caress them with your mousey and spring to life. By comparison, the 3d side docks lost all meaningful perspective in the translation. Instead of icons sitting on a bottom shelf, the side shelf became a window flap pushed open, with mysteriously floating icons severed from any direct relationship with the flap that so valiantly supported them on the bottom. Untethered and scatter-brained, the side icons threaten to collapse into a big oogy mess and spill sebaceous bromides all over your keyboard. The icons on the 3d bottom, however, are supported, confident, and ready to do battle.


Secondly, all this has done is introduce an interface inconsistency. That's just plain stupid.
Yes, now it's inconsistent. However, they obviously debated the pros and cons and decided that maintaining consistency at the expense of a nonsensical assault on the third dimension wasn't worth it. The choice was between consistency for its own sake vs. a more elegant and sensible design that doesn't make their users get nauseous, throw up, and create 400 post threads on the interwebs complaining about it.


The only way around it is to let people choose between the two looks regardless of where their dock is.
No, there are many ways around it.


A good designer designs something based on strong heuristics or design principles, not on how many people whine the loudest about what.
No, a good designer designs good stuff rather than quotes pompous rules from a design 101 text book. Furthermore, there's no evidence that whining had anything to do with this change, although if it did, so much the better.

Anyone who has actually designed something can tell you that it has nothing to do with just taking a list of "wants" from the users and trying to implement as many as possible. We all know there are going to be a dozen shareware dock modifiers a week after Leopard is out anyway. Apple should have let those people define the "alternative" dock looks IMO.

What makes you think this is still not the case? Apple is only offering what they believe is the best current design by default. You're still free to tart it up to your heart's content. Incidentally, I believe this 11th hour change is a stopgap measure until Apple can implement a 3d side dock that is elegant rather than flawed. However, the 2d stopgap is better than the 3d fiasco.

Finally, when you start to cave into whiners and complainers you open up a Pandora's box of trouble as can be seen on this very thread. Not two seconds after it's done, you already have people wanting even more. Already there are posts whining about how they want the same look on the bottom, and what about those like myself (and others on this thread), that actually like the dock on the side and want the 3-D effect?

Most of the posts are praising a decision that reflects early user feedback. On the other hand, you are whining like a big fat whinoceros, and in that I agree that it's a Pandora's box to cave into your sort of whining.

If it turns out that this is just an option for either the side or the top, then IMO it's a bit shameful of Apple to do it, but understandable. If however, as this article suggest, this look is only for the dock when it is on the side and cannot be changed, then it's the lamest, dumbest GUI decision I have heard of in a long time.
Then it is a good thing you likely do not have much experience with GUIs. The number of truly lame, dumb GUI decisions on competing products might be too much for your constitution to withstand, given your reaction to this relatively trivial but otherwise sensible revision.

TheSpaz
Oct 23, 2007, 10:37 PM
I'd always assumed Apple got the radio button idea from the antique light switch where you had two buttons for on and off, each of which toggled the other when pressed. Google isn't turning up an image of one in the faceplate, but here's the actual switch itself.

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/215YEAC75KL._AA160_.jpg

I have a switch like this to control the light in my hall way... all I have to do is press whichever one is up and the light goes on or off depending on the current condition of the light. Nice!

TheSpaz
Oct 23, 2007, 10:48 PM
The Dock just plain looks out of place. Nothing else in Mac OS X has perspective like the Dock does. You're viewing a FLAT screen and FLAT windows (with drop shadows that don't make sense too) and you expect me to believe that my Dock is 3D? If the Dock is 3D, then why didn't they make the crosswalk image in 3D too... it shouldn't have a perspective like that if it's coming off the right side of the Dock, it should be slanted slightly to the left to look like it's actually drawn on the Dock. Also, reflections don't look right and neither do those new fancy folders where they fan backward in a fake 3D way that doesn't match the Dock perspective again.

Also, drop shadows. I think that if drop shadows were to really work, the windows would have to get smaller or bigger depending on which 3D plane they are on... that way they could show being closer or further away from you but, instead, only the shadow gets deeper or shallower... The scroll bars haven't changed appearance since 10.0 and neither have the progress bars and that's kind of upsetting (even though virtually every other UI element got a facelift). Are the scroll bars too hard to fix or are people just so used to them that they look perfect. Ever since I got Aqua Extreme by Max Rudberg, I've been hooked on his scroll bars and I haven't changed since. I hope we can theme Leopard.

mrweirdo
Oct 23, 2007, 11:00 PM
I for one am glad to see changes were made to the dock even though I dont use it on the side personally I still prefer that there be the option to turn off the 3d effect as it looks somewhat gimmicky and distracting.

samh004
Oct 23, 2007, 11:33 PM
It's a shame they couldn't fix the issue of the dock on the side and instead just went a different route, however I do like the look, it's quite simple, and seeing as that's where my dock will be, I'm not complaining.

Perhaps in a later incremental update they'll fix the reflections issue and update the docks on the side, further irritating some users.

Can't wait to get it and try it out however though.

SilentCrs
Oct 24, 2007, 12:24 AM
As a Mac convert I can't believe people got this worked up over a purely aesthetic issue. And I can assure you the other millions of people coming over to the platform really don't care about it, either. This is going to get real interesting for the graphic design folks when they're no longer the predominant users of the platform. Changes in future revisions of the OS may be based on *gasp* functionality instead of aesthetics!

arn
Oct 24, 2007, 01:41 AM
Someone submitted this image.

apparently, you can turn off the 3d dock on the bottom

rendezvouscp
Oct 24, 2007, 01:44 AM
Yayness for the dock being like that on the bottom. I hadn't noticed the indicator lights in the 2D dock earlier, and I do like them better than in the 3D dock.
-Chasen

samh004
Oct 24, 2007, 01:54 AM
The indicator lights are looking better too... good to know.

edesignuk
Oct 24, 2007, 01:55 AM
Very good, that was bothering me in 9a559. Hopefully they've fixed the wireless reconnection bug too (always asking for network selection and password when you've already done it many, many times).

Markleshark
Oct 24, 2007, 02:01 AM
Someone submitted this image.

apparently, you can turn off the 3d dock on the bottom

I love the 3D dock, but even that looks nice.

Ok, I admit it... I'm excited now.

Evangelion
Oct 24, 2007, 02:50 AM
Sure, it cuts out the work of having to move the mouse to the dock, but adds the work of moving your hand to the F13 key.

Well, it means moving your hand from the keyboard to the mouse, and then mousing over to the dock, as opposed to just hitting the shortcut-key on your keyboard and typing few letter. Keyboard wins the mouse. Mouse might be easier, but it's not faster.

Evangelion
Oct 24, 2007, 03:18 AM
I got one. How about real speakers in the MBP?

Yeah, because speakers on the MBP are the biggest problem Apple has, and the only obstacle in their way to world-domination... That said, I have had no problems with the speakers on my MBP. true, they are not Genelecs, but they get the job done.

Seriously: why do I get the feeling that you are just desperately looking for something to whine about (again)? And why are you using MPB, since you hate everything Apple does?

Don't tell me to carry speakers. What is the point of a 1" laptop if I need to carry a 4"x8"x4" speaker set with me.

Well, how about headphones then?

:rolleyes: Only the anal retentive give a crap about a "flourish". Or, for that other person who was freaking out, scroll bar colors for that matter.

And only anal retentive would focus on whining about speakers on one particular model laptop....

There are potentially other bigger issues

Maybe, or maybe not. Do you have a reason to believe that there is something catastrophically wrong with Leopard?

fastbite
Oct 24, 2007, 03:59 AM
Great news, but I wish you could change the grey transparency.

trixter
Oct 24, 2007, 04:13 AM
Great news, but I wish you could change the grey transparency.

hello, its possible to switch the original tiger dock into leopard?

TheSpaz
Oct 24, 2007, 04:23 AM
Someone submitted this image.

apparently, you can turn off the 3d dock on the bottom

That's SLICK! This is the Dock that I will be using. Thanks to whoever found this image... sweet!!!!

Lord Zedd
Oct 24, 2007, 04:34 AM
Now all they need to do is add an option to turn off the very annoying Stacks "feature".

Much Ado
Oct 24, 2007, 04:41 AM
For all those who thought i was mad when i said I thought you'd be able to tun off the 3D Dock...

Who's laughing now? :D

Simmerl
Oct 24, 2007, 04:45 AM
hello, its possible to switch the original tiger dock into leopard?

Why would you care, two days before you go and buy Leopard? XD

There was this "Liger" ShapeShifter theme that came with a Dock skin somwehere on DeviantArt, though.

Schtumple
Oct 24, 2007, 05:02 AM
Aside from using terminal (I'm guessing every time you boot), is there any PROPPER way to make the dock 2D (eg, tick box in preferences), anyone with a GM copy care to enlighten?

a456
Oct 24, 2007, 05:20 AM
We could do with one of those survey things here. I for one vote for the 2D dock, the 3D dock seems a bit like it is trying too hard. And although I may be proved wrong - I expect the 3D would be more distracting when working, especially if you have one of the smaller screen sizes.

Simmerl
Oct 24, 2007, 05:35 AM
Aside from using terminal (I'm guessing every time you boot), is there any PROPPER way to make the dock 2D (eg, tick box in preferences), anyone with a GM copy care to enlighten?

I don't have the GM, but when you look at the terminal in the screenshot, you'll see the command "default" is used to edit the Dock preference file.
You do it once, and it'll stay 2D, until you edit the setting again.

For example, in Tiger you can define a "pinning", having the Trash Can in the bottom right corner, and the dock will grow to the left when you add more icons.

TBi
Oct 24, 2007, 05:46 AM
I think the new 2D dock is a very nice visual upgrade from Tigers while not being as "flash" as Leopards default. Thank god apple put it in there. I'll definately be using it!

thejadedmonkey
Oct 24, 2007, 06:28 AM
I can't say that I'm surprised, but sweet!

aLoC
Oct 24, 2007, 06:39 AM
I like the new side-dock and will be using it!

Cloudsurfer
Oct 24, 2007, 07:33 AM
Does the simplified dock also support stacks? Then it sounds like the best of both worlds... I like the 3D dock, but this looks so much nicer!

MBX
Oct 24, 2007, 07:50 AM
AWESOME! It's possible for bottom too!

YAY, i love you apple!

gregarious119
Oct 24, 2007, 08:36 AM
I got one. How about real speakers in the MBP? Forget about trying to hear ANYTHING in a crowded room. The speakers in the MBP are the most pathetic in the industry IMHO and boil down to Jobs's borderline fetish for 1" thick. And please people. Don't tell me to carry speakers. What is the point of a 1" laptop if I need to carry a 4"x8"x4" speaker set with me.



So what's your suggestion?

Go back to a 2-3'' laptop, just so you can stuff some thicker speakers in it? What is the point of a laptop if it's HUGE!?! How many laptops do you know of that can fill a crowded room with sound?

Put on some headphones for pete's sake.

SilentCrs
Oct 24, 2007, 08:49 AM
So what's your suggestion?

Go back to a 2-3'' laptop, just so you can stuff some thicker speakers in it? What is the point of a laptop if it's HUGE!?! How many laptops do you know of that can fill a crowded room with sound?

Put on some headphones for pete's sake.

If you're doing any kind of presentations for business (which is slowly becoming more frequent as Macs are trickling into places outside desktop publishing), you're going to need decent speakers. It's certainly a more important issue overall than the shininess of the dock.

Edot
Oct 24, 2007, 09:09 AM
If you're doing any kind of presentations for business (which is slowly becoming more frequent as Macs are trickling into places outside desktop publishing), you're going to need decent speakers. It's certainly a more important issue overall than the shininess of the dock.

Are you serious? Please, get some speakers for your conference room. I don't care what laptop you have, it's not going to project in a large conference room.

I think the majority of people would take a thinner laptop with crappy speakers than a thick one with "nicer" speakers, that still aren't that useful for presentations.

Slip
Oct 24, 2007, 09:12 AM
I love the 3D dock, but even that looks nice.

Ok, I admit it... I'm excited now.

Snap
Im personally gunna use the 3D but the 2D sure does look sweet
Man aint it nice when they listen ;)