Trent has let me down

[ZiggyPastorius]

I hate to be a downer, because I love Trent Reznor, and Nine Inch Nails, and I haven't heard much material I don't like, but his new production of Saul Williams is just ridiculously...well, bad. Trying as hard as I can not to bring in the fact that Hip-hop is just horrible no matter how you cut it, the songs on the album were just bad. So what is Trent thinking? I have no idea, but it's his decision to stand behind whatever he sees fit. I couldn't even stand some of the remixes him and Saul did, like a "Survivalism" remix which was mediocre at best, with some added rapping and horrid "singing." Next comes the part which pisses me off the most. I know for a fact that Trent loves David Bowie, but even if the album name, and the tracks, are not meant to be a joke...what the ****? Where is the originality in standing behind a guy who names his album "The Inevitable Rise and Liberation of NiggyTardust," obviously a direct mutation of "The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars"? I hate to be so nit-picky about details like this, but it's a disgrace. So I guess to bring this all around to the forum...what do you guys think about this new "production"? Good, bad? And what do you think about Trent not only standing behind this album, but completely producing it?

[Foxglove9]

The way I see it, Trent has worked on many albums in the past (Marilyn Manson, Prick, Coil, Pop Will Eat Itself, etc...) not to mention the countless remixes for different artists. Some of his collaborations were amazing and some were awful.

That said, I haven't heard the whole Saul Williams album yet, just the 1 track and it was hard sitting through the whole song even if the looped riff did have a Trent vibe to it that I like. I just don't care much for hip hop. i will remain open minded and check out some of his other songs because Trent is behind is, maybe I will discover something interesting. (btw.. I did like the Tardust remix of Survivalism, though I wouldn't rate very high, it's better than a lot of his mixes lately)

I don't get the whole NiggyTardust line either. Maybe there is a reason why they are copying Bowies Ziggy Stardust?

What I would have liked to see is more live collaboration recordings like he did with Peter Murphy a few years ago. I hope we still get the new NIN album he has been promising. I'm still waiting for all those B-sides from With Teeth that he said he was going to release.

And while we are on the subject. Why isn't NIN touring the US to promote Year Zero..or is that because of record label disputes?

[A-Dog]

Any links to this Saul Williams stuff? I just read about it today somewhere else.

I don't think Trent's trying to cut on Bowie or Ziggy Stardust--not trying to dis him in any way. Trent has a very perverse sense of humor. I think he or whoever came up with the "NiggyTardust" thing is just trying to be clever.

Did you feel let down by Year Zero? I think it's the best thing he's done in years.

[Foxglove9]

Do a search on Youtube. You'll see his video as well as some live tunes with him and Trent and spoken word stuff.

I loved Year Zero, then again there isn't much I don't like from Trent.

[ZiggyPastorius]

I personally thought Year Zero was quite good. Another version of the truth, I thought was very good, though the rest of the tracks beyond Capital G, did not fit my tastes. Not to the extent that I can't listen to the whole album, because I definitely can, but I prefer the first tracks, minus the very first track, and like "Beginning of the End," the best, despite how simple it is. Without deviating too much from it, does anyone else think the kaoss solo in BOTE is sweet? It's either pure luck, or skill, that allows him to make something so abrasive, and have it sound good in the song, and with Trent, I'm assuming the latter. But, yeah. Year Zero is probably my fourth favourite NIN album, the order probably being:

1. The Fragile
2. [WITH_TEETH]
3. The Downward Spiral [Deluxe Edition]
4. Year Zero
5. Further Down the Spiral

Back the original topic, though. Yes, my tastes probably play a large part in my dislike for this album, and I know that Trent is not trying to dis Bowie, as Bowie is one of Trent's favourite musicians. He's collabourated with him many times, they are close friends in a non-musical sense, and he draws lots of inspiration from him, so, I agree that he was not trying to dis him. However, I still think that with the state of affairs of the modern music industry which Trent, as well as I, hate so much, it's hard to believe Trent would stand behind something so obviously unoriginal (I won't extent that to the music, though I'd like to).

[bartelby]

Nothing will ever top Pretty Hate Machine.

[ZiggyPastorius]

Nothing will ever top Pretty Hate Machine.

There's nothing by Nine Inch Nails that I don't like, but if I had to choose to listen to any album, Pretty Hate Machine would be my last choice.

[bartelby]

There's nothing by Nine Inch Nails that I don't like, but if I had to choose to listen to any album, Pretty Hate Machine would be my last choice.

The impact that album had when it first came out was immense. I'd never heard anything like it.
Sure you had Ministry, Front Line Assembly and Skinny Puppy, but NIN was just superior in every way.

NIN was a cut throat razor compared to the sledge hammer of Ministry.

After PHM NIN just turned into a guitar based rock band.

[ZiggyPastorius]

The impact that album had when it first came out was immense. I'd never heard anything like it.
Sure you had Ministry, Front Line Assembly and Skinny Puppy, but NIN was just superior in every way.

NIN was a cut throat razor compared to the sledge hammer of Ministry.

After PHM NIN just turned into a guitar based rock band.

Well, there's no doubt that it was influential and better than all of that, but it wasn't that impressive of an album. I like specific tracks off of it, but I downright can't stand Down in It, and some of the songs were just so...I don't know. I'm in no way saying the album was bad as an album, but it's just not my favourite.

I don't agree with the last sentence, though. Trent still sits down and writes all his songs on most of the instruments, and all that himself. He alone has creative control of Nine Inch Nails, and I don't think it's become a "Guitar-based rock 'band'" in any way.

[bartelby]

I don't agree with the last sentence, though. Trent still sits down and writes all his songs on most of the instruments, and all that himself. He alone has creative control of Nine Inch Nails, and I don't think it's become a "Guitar-based rock 'band'" in any way.

Ok, NIN has become very guitar orientated.

[ZiggyPastorius]

Ok, NIN has become very guitar orientated.

Well, in this particular instance, I'm going to have to say I don't consider that to be a bad thing. Needs to be more bass oriented, though ;)

[Foxglove9]

Ok, NIN has become very guitar orientated.

Oh c'mon how can you say that. He has gotten so far away from that guitar rock sound. Just check out that solo at the end, I get goosebumps :)

The Great Destroyer Live (http://youtube.com/watch?v=qXVX2zzHxeg)

[ZiggyPastorius]

Oh c'mon how can you say that. He has gotten so far away from that guitar rock sound. Just check out that solo at the end, I get goosebumps :)

The Great Destroyer Live (http://youtube.com/watch?v=qXVX2zzHxeg)

lol, well, honestly, that video doesn't really help argue against him, considering it's an almost all-guitar song. :P

Edit: I am digging all the Macs you can see in the video, though lol

[A-Dog]

Needs to be more bass oriented, though ;)

More bass-oriented was what The Fragile was, so no wonder that tops your list.

I like YZ because he's getting back to an album of songs that seem to complement eachother, in a conceptual way, as opposed to the scattershot style jumping of With Teeth, etc., which just seemed like a summation of different Reznors through the years. I never get that one out anymore.
I remember in a Spin magazine cover story for With Teeth, Trent said "I just want the fan to know that I mean what I'm saying again". I just thought, "why and when did you ever stop??" As smart as he is he says some stupid stuff sometimes in interviews.

IMO even whole parts of The Fragile didn't seem to work well as a whole album, as much as I loved it and still appreciate it. Not only did pop music completely change in the last 10 years (let's not forget that Limp ****ing Bizkit was riding high on the charts at the time of The Fragile), but the industry as well, and I think we're seeing Trent just now seemingly recover from that (in addition to all his past management problems).

Sorry to go on a rant here, but NIN is one of the few bands still worth ranting about.

I love "The Great Destroyer" and "Zero Sum" off of this new album. That's some of the best **** he's done in years. Here's hoping the remix album is worth the time / money.

[ZiggyPastorius]

More bass-oriented was what The Fragile was, so no wonder that tops your list.

I like YZ because he's getting back to an album of songs that seem to complement eachother, in a conceptual way, as opposed to the scattershot style jumping of With Teeth, etc., which just seemed like a summation of different Reznors through the years. I never get that one out anymore.
I remember in a Spin magazine cover story for With Teeth, Trent said "I just want the fan to know that I mean what I'm saying again". I just thought, "why and when did you ever stop??" As smart as he is he says some stupid stuff sometimes in interviews.

IMO even whole parts of The Fragile didn't seem to work well as a whole album, as much as I loved it and still appreciate it. Not only did pop music completely change in the last 10 years (let's not forget that Limp ****ing Bizkit was riding high on the charts at the time of The Fragile), but the industry as well, and I think we're seeing Trent just now seemingly recover from that (in addition to all his past management problems).

Sorry to go on a rant here, but NIN is one of the few bands still worth ranting about.

I love "The Great Destroyer" and "Zero Sum" off of this new album. That's some of the best **** he's done in years. Here's hoping the remix album is worth the time / money.

Well, that may be a little bit of it, though I doubt that's too much of it, as the bass sound I really look for is complicated bass music, like jazz lol it was more of a joke, really.

But, I think the biggest turn-on about the Fragile for me, besides the fact that I just like the songs, was the fact that it, being made in such a hard time in his life, was an album where he wasn't thinking about much other than this own life and what he wanted the music to say. The death of a loved one, especially one who raised you, like his grandmother, is a hard thing to deal with, and the fact that the album, and the song The Fragile specifically, was such a deep let-out of that emotion, stands well in my book.

I also really like [WITH_TEETH]. I pre-ordered it and managed to get a copy 3 weeks before the album was released. (Still have the old, beat-up case, too), and it makes me feel special. For some reason, [WITH_TEETH] was that album that I listened to in my early adolescent years when I was depressed. Fortunately, I'm out of that stage now, and while I still enjoy the album, I don't listen to it all that much. Though I just recently found out (again) that I love the second disc of the Deluxe Edition Downward Spiral. woot.

I didn't completely understand the point of the limp bizkit reference, though. Was it a reference? Showing how bad the top bands in the charts were at the time of The Fragile? Hmm..

[ZiggyPastorius]

And yes, I agree with you completely on Year Zero. It's a sound we haven't heard in years from Trent, and it's very well planned. The Alternate Reality Game that went along with it was awesome, too. I really enjoyed that. Overall, there's a lot of meaning behind it, and things that Trent believes in whole-heartedly about music and what it's purpose is, so just for that, it gets a very high ranking among my favourites.

One thing I did find funny about Year Zero, though, and this sort of ties back into the original post about NiggyTardust...The plot of Year Zero is very very similar to the Industrial-Rock, concept album Outside, by Bowie, which Trent also draws a lot of influence from, and did some remixes on. It's kind of amusing how much of an impact our influences actually have on us, though, that even if we don't realise it, we're always drawing on what we've obtained from them.

[A-Dog]

I didn't completely understand the point of the limp bizkit reference, though. Was it a reference? Showing how bad the top bands in the charts were at the time of The Fragile? Hmm..

Just that he also released The Fragile at a time when the musical climate was very different than that of the Downward Spiral & Broken days, when Trent was at the top commercially and vision-wise. He commented/complained a lot about Bizkit being the antithesis to what he was trying to make then (for more on that go back and watch the "Starf*ckers Inc." video).

Yeah, Bowie's Outside is an awesome album, and I didn't realize that there's a thematic sameness with Year Zero. They're both very different musically. You could say that Bowie's is the 90's version. Trent's is the A.B. version (After-Bush).

[ZiggyPastorius]

Just that he also released The Fragile at a time when the musical climate was very different than that of the Downward Spiral & Broken days, when Trent was at the top commercially and vision-wise. He commented/complained a lot about Bizkit being the antithesis to what he was trying to make then (for more on that go back and watch the "Starf*ckers Inc." video).

Yeah, Bowie's Outside is an awesome album, and I didn't realize that there's a thematic sameness with Year Zero. They're both very different musically. You could say that Bowie's is the 90's version. Trent's is the A.B. version (After-Bush).

Yeah, there's a very striking similarity in the story-lines behind the two albums, though it's certainly not something that is so original, it's ground-breaking, just a basic storyline about the future, the government getting too powerful, and an investigation into the roots of music and art and what it really means. Year Zero is a total government control where art is the resistance, and Outside is where the government puts forth a new bureau to investigate "art crimes." Similar, but not plagarisingly-similar (if that's even a word :P)

And yeah. I'm trying not to get too off from the original topic, but what do you think of Bowie's work? I, personally, am sixteen, and love Bowie enough to have invested well over half a grand into owning all his CDs and DVDs, out of my own pocket from working. My friend Brian hates Outside, but it's one of my favourite Bowie albums. Also, there is no doubt that Outside is a huge influence on Trent, as he's said that on several occasions. He also remixed "The Heart's Filthy Lesson," off that album. It's also important to note that Trent was Bowie's tour partner for the Outside tour.

Back to the limp bizkit reference, though, it gets really blurry and confusing at this point. Trent is a very confusing musician, because he's changed so much, back and forth, because of his mental state and views on the world, and all that jive. Where Trent has always preached against mainsteam music, I think there was a desperateness in some (not many, but a few, and certainly not intentional) of his work that shifted a bit towards a mainsteam sound. I don't think he ever lost his personal, expressive, artistic voice, but he tended to morph it a bit at various stages of his life, in hopes of appealing to people a little bit more. I can't stand Limp Bizkit, but like it or not, even though Trent bashed what they stood for as musicians, he's fluctuated himself, doing things he not necessarily should have done if he wanted to stay in tune with his preached views of the world.

P.S. I'm not sure if that last paragraph made any sense. I'm tired, it's late, and I worked all day. My entire Windows Operating System and all my data got deleted because I ****ed with the wrong partition, so I'm running Linux only right now. Bleh. So, if that rant didn't make sense, I apologise, and will fix it if you point out any errors to me lol

[ZiggyPastorius]

Just as an add-on to the comment about Outside versus Year Zero...

It's kind of a positive foreshadow to the future, in my eyes, because just look at the plots:

With Outside, the year is 1999, and you have all these problems with the government and art and expression, and such.

With Year Zero, the year is 2015; same basic thing.

I don't want to talk politics on a mac/music forum, but I honestly don't feel that we're heading for the over-controlled wasteland that albums like this make us out to be. They're very insightful and creative and definitely show an ingenuitive way of fearing a potential future of the world, and attempting to avert it through the power of music, but with the topic of the music itself aside, I don't see these fears actually becoming realities; I see the world shifting over to a more sensical, libertarian view. I just think, no matter what, as long as we have opression, and limited freedom of speech, there are going to be people prophesising a day where we have no freedom at all, and I think that the fact that these keep not happening, ("1984," Outside, Year Zero, et cetera) is a good sign.

[A-Dog]

Just as an add-on to the comment about Outside versus Year Zero...

It's kind of a positive foreshadow to the future, in my eyes, because just look at the plots:

With Outside, the year is 1999, and you have all these problems with the government and art and expression, and such.

With Year Zero, the year is 2015; same basic thing.

I don't want to talk politics on a mac/music forum, but I honestly don't feel that we're heading for the over-controlled wasteland that albums like this make us out to be. They're very insightful and creative and definitely show an ingenuitive way of fearing a potential future of the world, and attempting to avert it through the power of music, but with the topic of the music itself aside, I don't see these fears actually becoming realities; I see the world shifting over to a more sensical, libertarian view. I just think, no matter what, as long as we have opression, and limited freedom of speech, there are going to be people prophesising a day where we have no freedom at all, and I think that the fact that these keep not happening, ("1984," Outside, Year Zero, et cetera) is a good sign.

You might be right. Everyone from Bowie (particularly his album Diamond Dogs which in turn was inspired by Orwell's 1984) to King Crimson to Radiohead and Muse have their "everything is wrong, everything is going to hell" song work. I guess I'm attracted to stuff like that. Things are a little e-ffed up in the world, in case you haven't noticed. It's up to the Bowies and Reznors and Yorkes of the world to kind of heighten the drama and the audience's experience, and also highlight some of the things that are going on.

About Bowie--I went through a big Bowie phase when I was your age--I'm 27 now. I still like his stuff--I just listened to it a bit too much though. I think at his peak, Man Who Sold The World through Scary Monsters, he was at the top of his game musically and vision-wise. He's only sporadically been as brilliant since. Outside was the start of a good return to form. I avoid the bulk of his latter 80's to mid 90's work like the plague, though. If you've seen the NIN documentary Closure, there's that great scene where Trent and Bowie meet backstage.

I also think NIN's "Zero Sum" sounds extremely Bowie-like in the chorus.

[A-Dog]

I don't want to talk politics on a mac/music forum, but I honestly don't feel that we're heading for the over-controlled wasteland that albums like this make us out to be. They're very insightful and creative and definitely show an ingenuitive way of fearing a potential future of the world, and attempting to avert it through the power of music, but with the topic of the music itself aside, I don't see these fears actually becoming realities; I see the world shifting over to a more sensical, libertarian view. I just think, no matter what, as long as we have opression, and limited freedom of speech, there are going to be people prophesising a day where we have no freedom at all, and I think that the fact that these keep not happening, ("1984," Outside, Year Zero, et cetera) is a good sign.

Don't think so? Re: artistic expression and control, the government gives grants for artists to live and produce their work, and takes them away (Serrano's "Piss Christ"; Mapplethorpe, etc.). The media tries to demonize Marilyn Manson because the Columbine school shooters may have been fans of his. If enough people get carried away with this stuff, things happen. I think more than ever we are in a climate where censorship can happen to artists and common citizens (also instead of censoring, the big media owners just buy up and alter the content).

Trent, in his slightly ham-fisted way, is holding up a mirror to a reality where war is manufactured, public opinion can be manipulated through fear, and whole generations are regulated (at least habitually) and plied (teens and anti-depressants) with legal corporate-managed drugs. The storylines in the albums may be over the top, but the root problems in human society haven't changed.

People were complaining that there's no good protest music in today's pop generation as there was in the 60's. I think Year Zero makes for a decent protest album.

[ZiggyPastorius]

Don't think so? Re: artistic expression and control, the government gives grants for artists to live and produce their work, and takes them away (Serrano's "Piss Christ"; Mapplethorpe, etc.). The media tries to demonize Marilyn Manson because the Columbine school shooters may have been fans of his. If enough people get carried away with this stuff, things happen. I think more than ever we are in a climate where censorship can happen to artists and common citizens (also instead of censoring, the big media owners just buy up and alter the content).

Trent, in his slightly ham-fisted way, is holding up a mirror to a reality where war is manufactured, public opinion can be manipulated through fear, and whole generations are regulated (at least habitually) and plied (teens and anti-depressants) with legal corporate-managed drugs. The storylines in the albums may be over the top, but the root problems in human society haven't changed.

People were complaining that there's no good protest music in today's pop generation as there was in the 60's. I think Year Zero makes for a decent protest album.

I thank you, for both of the posts. I agree with basically everything you've been saying. Year Zero is an AMAZING protest album, and now that I've went back and relistened, I've found that an earlier post I made "I don't really like the second half of Year Zero..." was incorrect. I still am not a big fan of the middle after Capital G, but the last tracks just appeal to me in an amazingly complex way. Not only is Trent an ingenious songwriter, but his voice just amazes me, like many others. He can make it so harsh to fit the song, or he can be melodic and pleasant to the ears. The choruses of In This Twilight and Zero-Sum, I just love so much, just the sound of them. One question I do have, not to be irrelevant, is...what is with all the references to "God," that Trent makes in this album? I am half considering the possibility of the songs being sung by "different people," conceptually, but I'm not really sure. I know for a fact that Trent is atheist (Unless he's made some weird conversion lately), and the gun-cross and other hints dropped around various parts of the album and related content still point to his disgust with religion, but I'm just wondering if anyone knows about this. Why all the references? Not trying to be smart or anything, I just wonder.

As for Bowie, yes. I can see where you might be kind of unhappy with his more recent work. I personally liked Eart hl i ng. Black Tie White Noise had some good tracks, but some of the others were too hip-hoppy for me. Too mainstream sounding. I didn't like Reality much, but I did like Hours. I own all his albums, which I paid for myself, so, I really love his music, but I can see where you might be unhappy with his after-80's work.

Also, I'm not sure exactly what you're saying about Marilyn Manson and them, but as for the censourship part of it, that kind of stuff just sickens me. I can't stand the state of affairs in this country or world right now in terms of our freedoms. The government, the education system, and big corporations really don't want us to say what we feel. Censourship is a horrible thing, and I wish it could be cut down on. Though the first two differ from the corporations in the fact that the corporations can censor people, whereas education and government, being public and tax-maintained, cannot tell you what you can and cannot say, et cetera. (I'm a pretty hardcore libertarian, so I may be kind of radical in some things, but I'm very passionate about freedom of speech, expression, and the entire constitution, which I have memorised, for the win.)

[A-Dog]

I thank you, for both of the posts. I agree with basically everything you've been saying. Year Zero is an AMAZING protest album, and now that I've went back and relistened, I've found that an earlier post I made "I don't really like the second half of Year Zero..." was incorrect. I still am not a big fan of the middle after Capital G, but the last tracks just appeal to me in an amazingly complex way. Not only is Trent an ingenious songwriter, but his voice just amazes me, like many others. He can make it so harsh to fit the song, or he can be melodic and pleasant to the ears. The choruses of In This Twilight and Zero-Sum, I just love so much, just the sound of them. One question I do have, not to be irrelevant, is...what is with all the references to "God," that Trent makes in this album? I am half considering the possibility of the songs being sung by "different people," conceptually, but I'm not really sure. I know for a fact that Trent is atheist (Unless he's made some weird conversion lately), and the gun-cross and other hints dropped around various parts of the album and related content still point to his disgust with religion, but I'm just wondering if anyone knows about this. Why all the references? Not trying to be smart or anything, I just wonder.

Yeah--I know what you mean about "In This Twilight" and "Zero Sum"--they are great, very moving songs, of the kind that I don't think Trent has been willing to muster up for a while ("Right Where It Belongs" from WT came close to that feeling I spose).

I think he's making a point about religion being hijacked by extremists. Just look at the interior pictures in the CD: a bible in one hand, a gun in the other. Does that image not sum up the last 5-6 years of American discourse & politics?

I haven't actually tracked down the lyrics to this album yet.

As for Bowie, yes. I can see where you might be kind of unhappy with his more recent work. I personally liked Eart hl i ng. Black Tie White Noise had some good tracks, but some of the others were too hip-hoppy for me. Too mainstream sounding. I didn't like Reality much, but I did like Hours. I own all his albums, which I paid for myself, so, I really love his music, but I can see where you might be unhappy with his after-80's work.

Earthling was awesome as well--it was the right thing at the right time, though the "jungle" electronica style sounds hopelessly dated now. I liked Hours too, though it was annoyingly produced and extremely sappy. I got to see Bowie live for the first and only time in 2004. I guess it was an older crowd, but as long he was playing something old, they were loving it, but when he tried to play some of his good new stuff like "Sunday" (from the Heathen album), people were sitting and couldn't have gave less than a crap. :rolleyes: