Iraqi civilian deaths

[Sayhey]

I think every American, regardless if you are for or against the invasion, should read this story:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1037081,00.html

The mounting body count always leaves out people like the ones in this story.

[zimv20]

an account of how to precisely not win over the iraqis.

iraqbodycount.net (http://www.iraqbodycount.net/) has the civilian dead count at 6118/7836. but with so many civilian deaths going unreported, i wonder how low their counts are.

[zimv20]

helen thomas' piece on friday discusses the administration's view of counting the iraqis. they leave a bit to be desired.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/opinion/6695128.htm

[mactastic]

It just goes to show the need for some kind of police system instead of using soldiers to do police work. Soldiers aren't trained like police. If we are going to keep doing pacification missions, and we've done a lot of them lately, we need to have some kind of quasi-miltary types who are trained as police units. But I guess the Army is closing the only police school they currently run - under orders from Rumsfeld if I recall correctly.

[RobVanDam]

Yes yes, all fancy descriptive writing, but lets get to the important part.

Haroon grabbed a gun owned by his father and fired some shots to scare them off.Soldiers begin firing then because they aren't going to get shot while trying to talk it out. In close combat in the night it's hard to distinguish a target, someone that jumps out yelling at you could be trying to kill you, any you can bet your money anyone that is holding a gun is going to be dead or wounded.

[Ugg]

Originally posted by RobVanDam
Yes yes, all fancy descriptive writing, but lets get to the important part.

Soldiers begin firing then because they aren't going to get shot while trying to talk it out. In close combat in the night it's hard to distinguish a target, someone that jumps out yelling at you could be trying to kill you, any you can bet your money anyone that is holding a gun is going to be dead or wounded.

Yep, that's what happens when homeowners have guns. They are much more likely to get killed than homeowners that don't.

But, the lack of translators, trigger happy soldiers, no warning to "put your guns down, this is the US!" all that together guarantees that there will be casualties. Too bad the US doesn't care about them.

[RobVanDam]

This was a raid, not a traffic stop.

When SWAT does a raid if they see someone that is holding a gun, they'll probably get shot, if they see someone pointing the gun at them, they'll definately get shot.

We actually do care about them because otherwise we'd have just taken the oil fields alone and left Iraq in ruins. But we haven't. Instead, we're doing what has to be done, doing raids on the information we have, and executing those raids properly. If anyone is shocked by this, then they obviously don't know how the military works. Plain and simple.

[zimv20]

Originally posted by RobVanDam

We actually do care about them because otherwise we'd have just taken the oil fields alone and left Iraq in ruins.

not necessarily. it could be the case the the administration cares about its image and the support of the public. 'cuz if it simply did the above w/o apology, there's no way they'd get away w/ it.

[mactastic]

Cops would have been trained to evaluate the source of the gunshots better. It may not have affected the outcome, but the likelihood of similiar incidents would be lower. Soldiers are trained to kill, that tends to be their response, particularly among young and inexperienced soldiers, in a stressful situation. It just goes to show why we shouldn't have soldiers doing police work.

[Inu]

Oh, all that business wouldnt be so bad with soldiers doing policework if the people you are policing at least dont hate them, and understand you.

Having soldiers doing raids that dont understand the civilians very well (arabic is kinda tough to learn) with a limited set of phrases ("put gun down", "youll get shot", "we good guys" doesnt go a very long way) is practically asking for trouble.

Shouldnt there be a rebellion already when the Iraqi police corps are ready, there is a chance things will cool down.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by RobVanDam
This was a raid, not a traffic stop.

When SWAT does a raid...

The problem is that it wasn't SWAT doing the raid.

If anyone is shocked by this, then they obviously don't know how the military works. Plain and simple.

No shock here. Our troops look after No.1 first, as they should. Just disappointment and disgust at the administration for trying to use soldiers as policemen and wondering why civilians and soldiers are getting killed at alarming rates.