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MacRumors
Oct 29, 2007, 01:20 AM
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ArsTechinca's John Siracusa posts (http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/mac-os-x-10-5.ars/1) an in depth review of Leopard, which refreshingly goes beyond the typical superficial glance at features. In fact, portions of the review may be too technical for the many readers, but does point out several under-the-hood improvements in Mac OS X 10.5 that may not be immediately obvious. Indeed, Siracusa summarizes the 17 page review:
As I've learned more about Leopard, it's become increasingly clear where, exactly, those two-and-a-half years of development time went. Leopard is absolutely packed with improvements. It seems that not a corner of the OS has gone untouched.

Perhaps that's not as clear to the casual user who just sees the surface changes and the major new features in Leopard. But even in that case, there's more than enough to recommend it. if you're wondering whether you should upgrade to Leopard, the answer, as it's been for every major revision of Mac OS X, is yes.
That being said, the review does touch on some aspects of Leopard's superficial changes, including the new standardized look of windows, changes in Finder behavior and the impracticality of Apple's current Stacks implementation:
There's just not enough room in a single Dock tile for a stack of icons to convey any meaningful information. Only the top one, two, maybe three items have any visual impact. And those few items may be misleading (e.g., the home folder appearing to be the Desktop folder) or completely generic (e.g., the Pictures and Movies folders showing up as plain folder icons.) Seriously, Apple, this is a bad idea.

Siracusa is, however, enthusiastic about Time Machine ("people will actually use") and describes steady and significant improvements in Mac OS X's performance and responsiveness. Leopard's kernel is also said to be better about scheduling processes, allowing you to make better use of multi-core CPUs.

Of technical interest, the article explores Leopard's implementation of DTrace to assist in debugging, the full transition to 64-bit, and the full adoption of Cocoa:
The last vestiges of the original Macintosh API are finally being put to rest. They've done their job and are being given a decent burial, I think. A slow, almost natural transition. Bugs will be fixed in the 32-bit Carbon APIs, of course, but no new features will be added. All new GUI APIs in Leopard and future Mac OS X releases will be added as Cocoa-only APIs.
This transition, of course, affects some of Apple's biggest developers (such as Microsoft and Adobe) who have a large library of Carbon code for their applications.

A lot of groundwork has also been laid towards implementing resolution independence, though even Apple's implementation across their own applications is thus far inconsistent. Full Resolution Independence support as a user-accessible feature is not expected until 2008. But this should allow Apple to introduce super-high-resolution displays and provide a consistent user experience.

The full review (http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/mac-os-x-10-5.ars/1) is worth reading if you have an interest in Mac OS X Leopard.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/29/in-depth-mac-os-x-leopard-review/)



Eidorian
Oct 29, 2007, 01:21 AM
I read this when it was on digg. I didn't expect it to show up here.

I really enjoyed the explanation of 32/64-bit and PowerPC/Intel.

corywoolf
Oct 29, 2007, 01:25 AM
I'll be waiting until Adobe updates CS3. After Effects is just too important. It's almost as if Apple likes to play games with Adobe or maybe Adobe is just really slow. :rolleyes:

Doctor Q
Oct 29, 2007, 01:27 AM
It's nice to know that Leopard already has groundwork for future O.S. evolution. I wonder how far along the developers are on the next Mac OS X version.

Eidorian
Oct 29, 2007, 01:29 AM
It's nice to know that Leopard already has groundwork for future O.S. evolution. I wonder how far along the developers are on the next Mac OS X version.I think we need them to catch up on this one first. ;)

stp2112
Oct 29, 2007, 01:35 AM
I read all the reviews so far and I have to say that none of them really hit the point that Leopard is a substantial performance increase on my G4 Powerbook. The graphics are better, the response time of all applications is increased, and the new features in Mail and TCP/IP as well as the finder and most applications are vastly improved. There were bugs in Tiger that always plagued me (none so serious that I would ever consider switching, mind you) that are simply gone in 10.5 and to me it is a VERY much appreciated and worth the wait. Most of the complaints I have read about so far are just people whining because it doesnt do everything exactly as they they think it should, lol.

Flowbee
Oct 29, 2007, 01:48 AM
Hopefully this review will help quiet those calling Leopard a service pack, or 10.4.11.

Vanilla
Oct 29, 2007, 02:06 AM
I read all the reviews so far and I have to say that none of them really hit the point that Leopard is a substantial performance increase on my G4 Powerbook. The graphics are better, the response time of all applications is increased, and the new features in Mail and TCP/IP as well as the finder and most applications are vastly improved. There were bugs in Tiger that always plagued me (none so serious that I would ever consider switching, mind you) that are simply gone in 10.5 and to me it is a VERY much appreciated and worth the wait. Most of the complaints I have read about so far are just people whining because it doesnt do everything exactly as they they think it should, lol.

Just wanted to second your comment. My old Powerbook G4 1.67ghz has received a second lease of life via Leopard that was totally unexpected. I'm really impressed.
Vanilla

bcortens
Oct 29, 2007, 02:15 AM
Most of the complaints I have read about so far are just people whining because it doesnt do everything exactly as they they think it should, lol.
Stacks are USELESS! the ability to dock a folder and have it act as a pop-up menu in which you could navigate to subfolders was so useful, I was rarely using the finder to get to files, now I have to because stacks can't do the menu option, sure they look cool and are all nice and spring loaded (which would have been nice to add to the menu version) but a choice would have been nice!
Just add that as a further option, menu view or something.
I'm unhappy because they took a perfectly fine feature, a useful one and reduced it to these graphically cool but totally useless stacks!

samh004
Oct 29, 2007, 02:19 AM
Hopefully this review will help quiet those calling Leopard a service pack, or 10.4.11.

I do think that's something that this review has done. Where Apple may not have had enough time to perfect some aspects of the interface, or include special effects in iChat and Photo Booth, they have laid the groundwork for these things to be improved upon and be used by anyone.

There's so many changes that no one will ever see, but run all the time, and that's why you should be upgrading, and being glad you've upgraded, as it's a good improvement, and there will be many more things to come thanks to what has been done.

I sort of expect the first and/or second incremental updates to fix the issues and polish it off (on top, as much of what's below is working well already). Perhaps some new effects for iChat etc will come too... as that seems to be what everyone notices as wrong with the OS... not what's right with the OS.

Marx55
Oct 29, 2007, 02:23 AM
Thanks to MacRumors for bringing this summary review. You rock!

PCMacUser
Oct 29, 2007, 02:32 AM
Thanks to MacRumors for bringing this summary review. You rock!

Brown noser, ha hah... :p

koobcamuk
Oct 29, 2007, 02:36 AM
Well, I have to say that 10.5 is in the very early days (obviously). I think a lot of new users are forgetting that it's better to upgrade once some people have worked through the kinks - or embrace kinks and be part of the upgrade experience.

Of note; I am looking forward to see what changes occur on the display front. I bought an ACD in August and love it. I don't think unless the design is better (hard to do) or the price is right (unlikely) that I would give up this display. It looks amazing and my MacBook lives with it just fine. Just fine? I mean amazingly.

pjarvi
Oct 29, 2007, 02:59 AM
Completely disagree with his rant about the menu bar and the dock, I love the translucency and prefer "blue orbs" over black triangles. Those 2 items are what defines Leopard.

dogtanian
Oct 29, 2007, 03:25 AM
Completely disagree with his rant about the menu bar and the dock, I love the translucency and prefer "blue orbs" over black triangles. Those 2 items are what defines Leopard.

Err I'm not sure I'd agree with that. There is a page with 300 new features and blue orbs and translucent menu bar aint the defining factors :D

breal8406
Oct 29, 2007, 03:41 AM
The one thing that caught me with Leopard is it doesn't feel like a new OS to me. I guess I felt with past major point releases that it was a slight step backwards in stability. I'm not getting that vibe this time.

Once you get past the upgrade headaches that come with every new system...I don't know about you but Leopard is running like a dream for me. The ground work is obvious in the feel of the system. At least for me anyways.

It still baffle's me. Apple has like an 18,000 head count......Microsoft has a 70,000 head count or something and Microsoft just can't get anything right right out of the box. It's one of the mysteries of life I guess I'm never going to understand.

erockerboy
Oct 29, 2007, 03:52 AM
Man, that Ars Technica article was a workout. Informative though :D

It is kind of a bummer about some of the "backwards progress" in the UI... seems like it would be so simple for Apple to just give us the option on things like menubar transparency, "classic" docked folders instead of Stacks, etc.

valiar
Oct 29, 2007, 03:57 AM
Man, that Ars Technica article was a workout. Informative though :D

It is kind of a bummer about some of the "backwards progress" in the UI... seems like it would be so simple for Apple to just give us the option on things like menubar transparency, "classic" docked folders instead of Stacks, etc.

Exactly.
3D Dock does not look as bad to me as it does to the review author, but he is spot on about the Stack icons!

Applications folder, if dragged to the Dock, looks like a slightly distorted Address Book application. There is no way to asign a permanent, easily identifiable icon to that folder/stack! Another example described in the review (disk image file/downloads folder) is even more staggering.

Apple needs to fix stacks/folders... Submit your bug reports!

Here:
http://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html

offwidafairies
Oct 29, 2007, 04:32 AM
This review is a big read, but worth it!
He really hammers the bad points of the GUI. And even though I am yet to ue Leopard, from all the photos I've seen on the internet I have always thought the 3D dock and translucent menu bar was stupid. Now I can see how frustrating the folder icons will be. I like to find things quickly and easily.
Looking fwd to trying it out for real myself in the next few days :)
I hope the performance boost is as great as everything I have read thus far. However, I'm miffed that ProTools apparently does not work :(

pk1
Oct 29, 2007, 05:23 AM
That being said, the review does touch on some aspects of Leopard's superficial changes, including the new standardized look of windows, changes in Finder behavior and the impracticality of Apple's current Stacks implementation:

here's just not enough room in a single Dock tile for a stack of icons to convey any meaningful information. Only the top one, two, maybe three items have any visual impact. And those few items may be misleading (e.g., the home folder appearing to be the Desktop folder) or completely generic (e.g., the Pictures and Movies folders showing up as plain folder icons.) Seriously, Apple, this is a bad idea.



It seems that the authors of this MacRumors post made an error by quoting the aforementioned text passage from Ars's Leopard review as regarding to stacks, while it is talking about how folder icons in the dock appear as a stacked list of the including items in that folder.

Macrumors lets us know about an in-depth review of Leopard like this one, yet they quote it in a wrong way, misleading their readers that only the top items of a stack are visible. Be more careful the next time, people!

SPUY767
Oct 29, 2007, 05:30 AM
I never found all that much to overtly loathe in Leopard. I will say that I wish there was a way to set the dock to function like the Tiger dock. I LOVED right clicking a folder on the dock to reveal all its contents, the look doesn't bother me, but the loss of the aforementioned functionality makes me want to cry.

Time machine in particular rocks for me because my basic backup task only occurred once a week and involved a script which basically created disk images of my hard disks on a large external drive.

mndeaves
Oct 29, 2007, 05:31 AM
Hi there, I've read MacRumors and it's forums for as long as I can remember now but never posted. After using Leopard my only gripe is with stacks and it's made me sign up here and give feedback to Apple.

As a software engineer I found it invaluable to be able to drill down through my home, work and applications folder. Stacks are basically the contextual menu made one level deep and to show less icons.

Now I think about it I would prefer stacks to be used on the desktop only (yes, go back to piles, but call them something else), so you could have a few piles of documents on the desktop that expanded out into a grid when you dragged another item over them. If they did that and and worked as spring loaded folders, I would probably dance around our office for a week.

Also, my dad a long time mac user, has lost the plot with stacks. I've had a few phone calls with 'where's my home folder gone? What is this icon? Hang on, what’s the point in having my home folder in the dock anymore - I can only open one folder!' Again, his only gripe.

As for my 78 year old grandmother (we call her iNan), who has owned a mac mini for a year now... well, she's using Tiger and dock folders, and i don't think will be going to leopard. I'll show it to her and see what she says.

Wow, my first post and a massive horsing. Sorry guys!

b00le
Oct 29, 2007, 05:31 AM
Ooof! Don't they have any sub-editors at Ars? The technical depth of this review is not as challenging as the author's exhausting prolixity. Perhaps, like Pascal, he lacked the time to make it shorter...

motulist
Oct 29, 2007, 05:39 AM
It's now becoming an accepted fact that, although Stacks add a nice feature for some users, for many other users it's a HUGE downgrade in functionality of a feature that many people rely on.

Apple has made mistakes before, heard the outcry of its users, and responded with a remedy that pleased. So everyone who wants nested dock folder lists back, keep sending Apple feedback about it, and keep up the chorus about the situation in web forums. Apple pays attention if enough people clamor for change.

p.s. Other than the stacks debacle, Leopard looks like an awesome upgrade.

twoodcc
Oct 29, 2007, 06:35 AM
that's a long review, but i'm gonna try to read the whole thing when i get a chance.

i personally like leopard so far :cool:

Wayfarer
Oct 29, 2007, 06:54 AM
This is the best review I've read so far. It really makes you look twice at Leopard. ;)

tersono
Oct 29, 2007, 07:06 AM
Siracusa is always worth reading, but he's really excelled himself with this one...

michielrutjes
Oct 29, 2007, 07:07 AM
I was working all day last friday so when UPS arrived there was nobody to answer the door... Now I'm waiting for the package to arrive and this article certainly helps to kill the time :) I hope UPS comes soon because I want to see what's true.

Btw, I just love the very last sentence: "Caution, Dock slippery when wet".

miketcool
Oct 29, 2007, 07:19 AM
I enjoy stacks even if it is worthless. The ability to sort out my downloads from a line sprung from the dock seems easier to me then going through a folder.

motulist
Oct 29, 2007, 07:29 AM
I enjoy stacks even if it is worthless. The ability to sort out my downloads from a line sprung from the dock seems easier to me then going through a folder.

Right, but that's the exact point! The old way also used to spring up a pop up list of the items contained in a docked folder, but it also showed you many more items, and allowed you to navigate through any folders within that folder just using the arrows keys! All right from the pop up list without opening a single finder window!

grimmace
Oct 29, 2007, 07:48 AM
It took me FOUR times to successfully install Leopard!! Power Mac Dual 2.7Ghz.

PROBLEM: The finder didnt work.

The third time was at the apple store. They successfully installed it. When I got home, it didn't work again!!

Finally got it to work. I wonder if this had anything to do with CS3..

Diatribe
Oct 29, 2007, 07:53 AM
I must say that just for the reason to spread Leopard adoption and to give developers a reason to use the new Leopard features this is a worthy upgrade.

This will result in faster, more stable and overall nicer applications for all of us, once they are Leopard only.

Rocketman
Oct 29, 2007, 08:02 AM
I think we need them to catch up on this one first. ;)

We will look back on 10.5 as being a watershed event. The transition to nearly full 64 bit, the shedding of OS9, declaring it real unix, the transition away from all but a few "legacy processors", the full transition into Intel, and notably the transition to 10.5 on portable devices.

10.5 is literally Apple's new core.

Rocketman

Fiveos22
Oct 29, 2007, 08:03 AM
I love Ars reviews, they cover all the bases and often add quite novel information.

Anyone remember their review of the first iPod nano? The did one of the first stress tests on the device, culminating by driving over it with a car to find that it was still playing! Convinced me to buy the 1st gen nano.

Can't wait to read this Ars review after my test this afternoon. Maybe they'll convince me to get Leopard (doubtful, but maybe).

Lonon
Oct 29, 2007, 08:11 AM
At last! I was expecting John's review since WWDC.

mainstreetmark
Oct 29, 2007, 08:52 AM
I share the growing consensus of stacks. If you could drill down in stacks, it'd be awesome, but, you can't, so .. :(. Like, a folder would fan out again into a second layer off to the left or something. Or, the ability to disable the "stackyness" of a folder in the dock, so clicking on it opens the folder (or menus, if right click)

koobcamuk
Oct 29, 2007, 08:56 AM
Apple needs to fix stacks/folders... Submit your bug reports!

Here:
http://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html

If people want to complain - this is the real place to do it and get results.

fabsgwu
Oct 29, 2007, 09:04 AM
I share the growing consensus of stacks. If you could drill down in stacks, it'd be awesome, but, you can't, so .. :(. Like, a folder would fan out again into a second layer off to the left or something. Or, the ability to disable the "stackyness" of a folder in the dock, so clicking on it opens the folder (or menus, if right click)

I've said it before, Stacks have sooo much potential, but currently they're a mess. First Apple needs to add a simple preference to bring back the 'right-click' menu for dock folders (when desired).

Next it would be interesting to see more robust Stack features, such as spotlight integration, submenu capability, or even simply a "more" button to continue truncated lists. I hope Apple is not done with Stacks development...

queshy
Oct 29, 2007, 09:06 AM
I miss the black arrows...the blue orbs, although better looking, make i harder to see due to the low contrast between the dock floor and the orb itself. Or maybe it's just my green background...

freddiecable
Oct 29, 2007, 09:07 AM
I agree with you! This is more eyecandy than actual usability benefits. I get confused when getting lots of icons and folders in my face AND now I can't "drill down" in folders - what is that? I have to open finder and then...drill down :confused:

apple better improve this!

Stacks are USELESS! the ability to dock a folder and have it act as a pop-up menu in which you could navigate to subfolders was so useful, I was rarely using the finder to get to files, now I have to because stacks can't do the menu option, sure they look cool and are all nice and spring loaded (which would have been nice to add to the menu version) but a choice would have been nice!
Just add that as a further option, menu view or something.
I'm unhappy because they took a perfectly fine feature, a useful one and reduced it to these graphically cool but totally useless stacks!

kcmac
Oct 29, 2007, 09:14 AM
John's review is as always very technical, very demanding and very good.

I am using leopard on our G5 iMac and I must say it is awesome. Everything is faster and it feels so solid. The look really stays out of your way now as it all is very uniform. I just love what they have done to iCal which I live in. Safari screams. Mail doesn't get hung up anymore. Scrolling in a window in the background. You've seen these comments and they are true.

I don't think most of us will get as gung ho about a few things like John does so I suggest using it yourself before completely agreeing with everything he says. I don't disagree with him (too much) but he does let some things nag at him that I don't think the majority of us worry about. (I'm glad he does though.)

Leopard version one will be seen as much more stable than Tiger ever was in its early days and so far, I think it is as stable (and certainly much faster) than the latest version of Tiger.

John mentions something about Spotlight maybe making the whole system faster. Whatever it is, it is much appreciated. Our G5 seems like a new machine. I can only imagine those of you lucky enough to have one of the new Intel machines. :D

pale9
Oct 29, 2007, 09:24 AM
i had 3 macs to update this weekend. one new imac, a recent mac book and a first generation mac mini. the mini was the only machine to give me serious trouble.

after installing and rebooting i got the login screen. after choosing my or my daughters account all that would happen would be the spinning beach ball (no icons on desktop, no menu bar). numerous reboots did not remedy. reinstalling leopard did not help either. strangely enough, the guest account that i installed a long time ago and never had used was accessible. through that i was able to create new accounts for me and my daughter. close the old account be leave their respective data intact and after logging into the new accounts copy over whatever data was needed from the old accounts.... everything now works fine...

johngordon
Oct 29, 2007, 09:25 AM
Just wanted to second your comment. My old Powerbook G4 1.67ghz has received a second lease of life via Leopard that was totally unexpected. I'm really impressed.
Vanilla

You guys aren't helping. :D We have a 4yr old 1.25Ghz G4 PB, and were hoping to replace it with a new MBP in the new year. But realistically it's now looking like being the second half of the year.

So I was trying to be sensible and just wait, thinking the old PB might struggle a bit with Leopard.

I'm not going to last much past Xmas at this rate....

jackc
Oct 29, 2007, 09:28 AM
Wow, I haven't used Leopard yet so I didn't realize the travesty of Dock folders until now. The review is spot-on.

It gives me some satisfaction that Jobs and the rest of Apple will be reading Siracusa's criticism.

SiliconAddict
Oct 29, 2007, 09:30 AM
I love Siracusa's reviews but you simply can't do a complete review without Intel hardware.

Jetson
Oct 29, 2007, 09:36 AM
My copy of Leopard that I ordered from Amazon.com last week is still in "Items Shipping Soon" status.

grrrr!

:rolleyes:

tgildred
Oct 29, 2007, 09:40 AM
Just wanted to second your comment. My old Powerbook G4 1.67ghz has received a second lease of life via Leopard that was totally unexpected. I'm really impressed.
Vanilla

Ditto. It's like a new machine.

un1ty
Oct 29, 2007, 09:42 AM
I disagree with him on the Dock and menu-bar issues, which I feel were very subjective opinions. I have actually been hiding the dock less since Leopard. Although, I'd like to see a version of the dock without the curved highlight. Sometimes, I feel like programmers have a mindset of anti-eyecandy on the basis of usability. This so-called eyecandy on the Dock makes me actually want to use it more.

There is one usability aspect that the reviewer didn't take into account with the 3D dock. The new dock allows the top of applications to show without a background. The shape of the icons are more pronounced than they were with Tiger's dock, which makes them quicker to recognize. In fact I'd like the option to make the icons persistently bigger in relation to the dock. Also, I think stacks goes a long way toward avoiding Dock-abuse (like my mom who has a bazillion folders and icons on her dock).

The menu-bar looks really cool with some backgrounds, and gives the illusion of more screen real estate. Although I think the menu bar really starts looking good if you choose Graphite for Appearance and Highlight color.

kcmac
Oct 29, 2007, 09:45 AM
Wow, I haven't used Leopard yet so I didn't realize the travesty of Dock folders until now. The review is spot-on.

It gives me some satisfaction that Jobs and the rest of Apple will be reading Siracusa's criticism.
I would try Leopard first. I seriously don't mind the Dock folders. Now if you have a folder with a bazillion things in there.....

Spotlight is so blazing fast now that it is MUCH more usable. Dock folders may not even be an option for me now. Spotlight is da man!

somberlaine
Oct 29, 2007, 09:52 AM
I saw it on Digg last night. It is a very informative and honest review. It is subjective at times though.

kcmac
Oct 29, 2007, 09:53 AM
I disagree with him on the Dock and menu-bar issues, which I feel were very subjective opinions. I have actually been hiding the dock less since Leopard. Although, I'd like to see a version of the dock without the curved highlight. Sometimes, I feel like programmers have a mindset of anti-eyecandy on the basis of usability. This so-called eyecandy on the Dock makes me actually want to use it more.

There is one usability aspect that the reviewer didn't take into account with the 3D dock. The new dock allows the top of applications to show without a background. The shape of the icons are more pronounced than they were with Tiger's dock, which makes them quicker to recognize. In fact I'd like the option to make the icons persistently bigger in relation to the dock. Also, I think stacks goes a long way toward avoiding Dock-abuse (like my mom who has a bazillion folders and icons on her dock).

The menu-bar looks really cool with some backgrounds, and gives the illusion of more screen real estate. Although I think the menu bar really starts looking good if you choose Graphite for Appearance and Highlight color.
I agree. We hide the dock as well. The downloads folder is nice. I also have a lighter desktop background picture and that makes the dock look better, I think than with a dark background. These are just topical items however. The real power of Leopard is what it does...

Yateball
Oct 29, 2007, 10:08 AM
Really lenghtly review, and I actually disagree with a lot of his dislikes on the visual improvements.

I prefer the blue orb to the triangles, I think they're effective. As well, the reflective dock is nice. The stacks are kinda "meh" I don't really care either way.

Other than that, the way he talks about all the under the hood improvements is really informative and was great to read.

amnesiac1984
Oct 29, 2007, 10:24 AM
I always used the pop up folder from the dock feature in Tiger and it really really annoyed me how slow it could was. Especially when the start menu is so much faster in comparison. Thats what I was most excited about with stacks. In leopard I have grouped my most useful applications into categories and put aliases in the corresponding folders and put these folders as stacks. The result is that I now have every single app i use within easy reach and each one can be loaded at lightning speed.

happydude
Oct 29, 2007, 10:27 AM
I read all the reviews so far and I have to say that none of them really hit the point that Leopard is a substantial performance increase on my G4 Powerbook. The graphics are better, the response time of all applications is increased, and the new features in Mail and TCP/IP as well as the finder and most applications are vastly improved. There were bugs in Tiger that always plagued me (none so serious that I would ever consider switching, mind you) that are simply gone in 10.5 and to me it is a VERY much appreciated and worth the wait. Most of the complaints I have read about so far are just people whining because it doesnt do everything exactly as they they think it should, lol.

what are the specs on your powerbook? we have one more license left on our family pack and just for fun wondering if updating my incredibly aged powerbook is worth it or if i'll end up rendering it to the waste land before i'm ready to replace it . . .

iGrouch
Oct 29, 2007, 10:29 AM
The article was good. I would like to add some other things as well

Stacks
Stacks could be more useful if when opened one could navigate through folders and back again with the Grid view update to show contents as you navigate. I believe I saw this somewhere. Some Italian web site had videos where you could navigate through folders in stacks view. At least the functionality of the old Dock Whereby folders when right clicked had offered the user the possibility to navigate the contents and sub folders hierarchically with menus. Perhaps Apple is polishing the stacks navigation and will off it in 10.5.x.

Searching
Cmd F in Finder is limited in places to search. You can't add other places
The Tiger Find view for searches and Smart folders is sorely missed. It categorised file types into groups, with each group separated with a blue divider with control buttons. Also the locations for searching are limited to This Mac, Shared (if there is another Mac on the network and the current directory from where you initiated the search. There is no Home or Other places like in Tiger. If you find yourself restricted to Pictures in a find by mistake you have to back out and start over with the search

Smarts
There does not seem to be a way to edit Smart folders which means you have to dump them and start over. This is the situation with the default All Images, All Documents and All Movies smart folders. The results in mine were not what I wanted.

Firewall
Can't turn on ports. How is this done or how does the firewall work now. KB article on this required?

Help:
Help window always floats on top. Won't let other widows come to front.

Submitting feedback to Apple is something I firmly believe in. I also think that at least some, if not all of these things should get resolved over time.

gkroeger
Oct 29, 2007, 10:52 AM
Many of the appearance issues are subjective, but two things worry me the most:

1. Use of low contrast in the UI. The low contrast folders are a problem for anyone with vision issues. Most vision limitations don't require Universal Access features, but do require resonable contrast of UI features. In addition to folder icons, the button labels are now more difficult to read as they fall in the darkest part of the window border. Transparent menus can also be difficult. The real concern here is that Apple designers aren't focusing on the mission of the UI which is usability, not eye candy.

2. No Carbon 64-bit APIs. It's all well and good to push Cocoa and Obj-C, but if cross-platform developers drop the Mac it will hurt Apple. If Adobe and MS leave, you can kiss the Mac goodbye.

zzcoop
Oct 29, 2007, 10:54 AM
It seems that the authors of this MacRumors post made an error by quoting the aforementioned text passage from Ars's Leopard review as regarding to stacks, while it is talking about how folder icons in the dock appear as a stacked list of the including items in that folder.

Macrumors lets us know about an in-depth review of Leopard like this one, yet they quote it in a wrong way, misleading their readers that only the top items of a stack are visible. Be more careful the next time, people!

Maybe. But docked folders themselves become stacks, so what's the difference?

bluefiberoptics
Oct 29, 2007, 11:12 AM
If Adobe and MS leave, you can kiss the Mac goodbye.

Microsoft would be the most likely to abandon the Mac platform. But there is too much money involved for Adobe to abandon Mac users.

displaced
Oct 29, 2007, 11:15 AM
I'm becoming less and less enamoured with Stacks the more I use them.

If they were available on the desktop for use as temporary storage locations for current work, I'd possibly find them handy. But in the cramped dock, they're not particularly useful. That they've removed one-click shortcuts to open a folder in Finder is also a bit of a kick in the knackers, not to mention losing the drill-down context-menu. Mind you, I'm not going to miss that quite so much now that the Finder is as fast as a rocket-propelled whippet.

Overall, the Dock's lost a few coolness points for me, Stacks haven't earnt any, but Finder gets several gazillion for working so damn well. I love how network browsing and connecting are implemented - especially with screen-sharing right in there too.

Address Book gets a minus-several-billion coolness penalty due to its loss of Bluetooth phone integration. However, the new Address Book app bundle does contain some Bluetooth icons and the AB prefs file contains a couple of bluetooth references, so perhaps all is not lost for future point-releases.

I'm pretty happy with Leopard other than the faults I've outlined above. It's certainly a solid release. I'm mostly looking forward to what those wonderful 3rd-party developers do with the new APIs. That's one of the best things about the Mac developer community. It's usually pretty short-order between Apple giving them new and better toys to play with, and us getting some great apps that use them!


2. No Carbon 64-bit APIs. It's all well and good to push Cocoa and Obj-C, but if cross-platform developers drop the Mac it will hurt Apple. If Adobe and MS leave, you can kiss the Mac goodbye.

True. But the 32-bit Carbon APIs won't disappear any time soon. I think it's been pretty clear since Tiger's launch that Apple's intention has been to gradually re-implement Carbon routines in Cocoa, in a manner consistent with Cocoa's design and approach. If Adobe and MS want to grow the capabilities of their apps along with the capabilities of OS X, they're going to have to bite this particular bullet anyway. At least they're both now rid of CodeWarrior, having moved to Xcode for Universal Binary support. Apple's extension of Cocoa to cover what Carbon does is going to be a gradual thing, hopefully gradual enough that Carbon-heavy developers can move with them at a similar pace.

zwida
Oct 29, 2007, 11:21 AM
Microsoft would be the most likely to abandon the Mac platform. But there is too much money involved for Adobe to abandon Mac users.

They both would stand to lose too much money at this point. I think Apple would have to be a much more significant threat to Microsoft (like if they developed a way to run any Windows app without Windows, or something) than they currently are. By that point, if it ever came to that, it wouldn't even matter if MS withdrew their support of the platform

Scenicroadways
Oct 29, 2007, 11:26 AM
+1 on disagreeing with his opinion on menubar/dock design changes. I love them, think they look great, and they have not hindered the usability in any way for me. Cool review overall though.

bdkennedy1
Oct 29, 2007, 11:28 AM
I'm going to have to disagree on the reviewer on Stacks.

I find it a lot easier to have my Applications folder as a group of Stacks in my Dock and looking at a screen full of large icons, rather than clicking the Finder icon in the dock, clicking the Applications folder, and then scrolling through a bunch of files with small icons to find the app I want to open.

And don't even get me started on the Downloads stack. This was needed.

Cloudane
Oct 29, 2007, 11:30 AM
Wow, he sure can whine :eek: It was quite a depressing review in places, with rant after rant after rant. However, overall, a good review, some positivity towards the end, and at least it's honest and to the point.

I do actually agree with some of his complaints about the UI (even though I think he's gone a bit overboard with his loathing). The new "fuzzy orb" for active applications is probably my biggest gripe in the whole of Leopard and I hope someone comes up with a hack to make it more contrast-y whilst keeping the 3D glass look which I like. I also agree with the stack icons, they just look... ludicrous... and are unhelpful if you use more than one stack. Here's hoping Apple do the unthinkable and add user options in the next point release as well as bug fixes.

I've never used OS 9, but I've seen it, is it just me or is the general look and feel of OS X - the icons, window style etc, slowly coming full circle back to Classic? (albeit in a much more elegant fashion). Not a complaint, just an observation.

The new dock in general though, and the transparent menu bar, I like. I think they look great. The menu bar should have an *option* to be solid, sure, but I think it adds a great effect. The combined menu/dock effects and transparency give a feeling of "floating" either in the default space background or in the mountain scenery I set as mine... not sure if that was their intention as such, but it's a nice effect.

So yeah... a blunt review in places, but some fair points. I too am looking forward to 10.5.1 and/or third party hacks.

crees!
Oct 29, 2007, 11:33 AM
I read all the reviews so far and I have to say that none of them really hit the point that Leopard is a substantial performance increase on my G4 Powerbook. The graphics are better, the response time of all applications is increased, and the new features in Mail and TCP/IP as well as the finder and most applications are vastly improved.

I'm trying to figure out while after I've had my PBG4 running for a bit that the Dock starts to chug with it's animations.

ntg
Oct 29, 2007, 11:50 AM
I've actually installed Leopard on my 1.5 PB, and once it got through making the 89Gb backup for time-machine, I have to agree with previous posters - my laptop now feels faster!
I'm impressed, and I only performed an archive and install!
I'm fitting a new 120Gb ata disk (as soon as it arrives) and I'll be doing a nice clean install onto it, then trying to restore my documents from time-machine - should be a fun exercise!
I too was hoping to use this as an excuse to buy an MBP, but I'm going to have to come up with another excuse now.
Damn you, Apple!
:eek:

Nig.

Jetson
Oct 29, 2007, 11:51 AM
People here are throwing around new terms like they've been using them for years.

Frankly terms like "blue orbs", "black triangles" and "stacks" are freaking me out. Never heard anything like it in Tiger.

Random Ping
Oct 29, 2007, 11:56 AM
Stacks are USELESS!

IMHO, the "Real Stacks" (tm) is a smart folder tuned to look for a particular document type and sorted in time of last access or last modification and viewed in coverflow mode.

For example, you could have a smart folder that tracks all your powerpoint slides, then when you need the slides that you worked on, say sometime around April, you just scan back back to that general period and use Coverflow and Quicklook to quickly identify the document.

bmk
Oct 29, 2007, 11:57 AM
Completely disagree with his rant about the menu bar and the dock, I love the translucency and prefer "blue orbs" over black triangles. Those 2 items are what defines Leopard.

The point about the transparency issue with the menu bar isn't one of personal preference - the fact that you use a light backdrop that doesn't interfere with the menu isn't an argument to say that transparent menu bars are a good idea. The point surely is that under certain circumstances i.e. certain desktop backgrounds, the menu is literally unreadable - that is not an opinion just a fact.

TheRuggedLion
Oct 29, 2007, 12:04 PM
I'm going to have to disagree on the reviewer on Stacks.

I find it a lot easier to have my Applications folder as a group of Stacks in my Dock and looking at a screen full of large icons, rather than clicking the Finder icon in the dock, clicking the Applications folder, and then scrolling through a bunch of files with small icons to find the app I want to open.

And don't even get me started on the Downloads stack. This was needed.

I also feel the same way. A good way to customize the stack icon is, put an icon you like in the stack folder and name it 0. Then sort by name.

Here is a screenshot of mine, I used a bag icon and it looks like my apps are stuffed inside ;-)

CatharticFlux
Oct 29, 2007, 12:05 PM
The stacks are not totally useless (as long as you avoid fan view), though the loss of the right-click on the folders will be SORELY missed.

The new icons are criminally bad in their design, but the overall fixes and improvements to Finder make me ignore them (Finally, I can see the path without acrobatics) :) Coverflow + Quicklook in Finder is a revelatory experience :)

Finally, the system does feel curiously more responsive, and not that it wasn't before, it just has a little extra 'snap' on the click.

Jetson
Oct 29, 2007, 12:18 PM
Finally, the system does feel curiously more responsive, and not that it wasn't before, it just has a little extra 'snap' on the click.
Go ahead, say it - Leopard feels snappier!

bankshot
Oct 29, 2007, 12:21 PM
Excellent. John Siracusa's reviews are always the best part about a new OS release. If you really want a history lesson on OS X, go back and read all his past reviews. I believe they start with one of the developer previews of 10.0.

Cloudane
Oct 29, 2007, 12:31 PM
I also feel the same way. A good way to customize the stack icon is, put an icon you like in the stack folder and name it 0. Then sort by name.

Here is a screenshot of mine, I used a bag icon and it looks like my apps are stuffed inside ;-)

Brilliant idea! Thanks for the tip. Go post it on macosxhints.com too ;)

Jetson
Oct 29, 2007, 12:40 PM
Items shipped on October 29, 2007:
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/G/01/x-locale/common/icons/arrow_subordinate._V47081670_.gif Delivery estimate: October 30, 2007 - October 31, 2007

1 package via UPS

1 of: Apple Mac OS X Version 10.5 Leopard [DVD-ROM]
Sold by: Amazon.com, LLC</SPAN>Hooray!

Now I can talk about blue orbs and black triangles and stacks.

Good grief, it sounds like an episode of the X-Files :rolleyes:

chopper dave
Oct 29, 2007, 12:55 PM
Why do Ars reviews always blow the others out of the water? This one really goes deeper than just a rundown of features and gets to the meat of the OS. I came away with the conclusion that the new developer tools are the thing to get most excited about. I really look forward to the next generation of software for 10.5.

That said, I am totally with the dock loathers, and ever since I switched to Mac, never quite managed to make it useful. Since I got good at using quicksilver/spotlight, I have given up on using the dock for anything but a task switcher, and everything Apple has done with it has just reinforced this behavior.

Try this for a week- take ALL of your apps out of the dock, put it on the LH or RH side on autohide. Now, whatever you see on the dock you automatically know is a running program and you can use it to switch apps without hunting for dots and triangles. Just use spotlight or quicksilver to launch apps and you'll find that you can type up the app, folder, or file before you could hunt it down on the dock.

majordude
Oct 29, 2007, 01:00 PM
I used a bag icon and it looks like my apps are stuffed inside ;-)

How'd you do that? :confused:

CJD2112
Oct 29, 2007, 01:03 PM
I've actually installed Leopard on my 1.5 PB, and once it got through making the 89Gb backup for time-machine, I have to agree with previous posters - my laptop now feels faster!
I'm impressed, and I only performed an archive and install!
I'm fitting a new 120Gb ata disk (as soon as it arrives) and I'll be doing a nice clean install onto it, then trying to restore my documents from time-machine - should be a fun exercise!
I too was hoping to use this as an excuse to buy an MBP, but I'm going to have to come up with another excuse now.
Damn you, Apple!
:eek:

Nig.

I tested the 9A559 Beta on my friends Power Book G4 1.67 system with 1.5 GB RAM on a slave drive, and it was MUCH faster. We timed the boot rates between Tiger and Leopard and Leopard was literally twice as fast, and the Tiger boot was only a few months old in its installation age. Both OS's has similar applications loading on the same hardware, so it is safe to say it was a fair amateur experiment.

CJD2112
Oct 29, 2007, 01:06 PM
Here is a screenshot of mine, I used a bag icon and it looks like my apps are stuffed inside ;-)

That's great, did you make the bag icon yourself? I just made a folder, named it "#Downloads" for example, and cut and pasted the folder icon for Downloads folder into the folder I created in the stack so I can see that it's the downloads stack in the dock. I repeated this for my Applications and Documents folders in the stack as well.

50548
Oct 29, 2007, 01:08 PM
John's review is as always very technical, very demanding and very good.

I am using leopard on our G5 iMac and I must say it is awesome. Everything is faster and it feels so solid. The look really stays out of your way now as it all is very uniform. I just love what they have done to iCal which I live in. Safari screams. Mail doesn't get hung up anymore. Scrolling in a window in the background. You've seen these comments and they are true.

I don't think most of us will get as gung ho about a few things like John does so I suggest using it yourself before completely agreeing with everything he says. I don't disagree with him (too much) but he does let some things nag at him that I don't think the majority of us worry about. (I'm glad he does though.)

Leopard version one will be seen as much more stable than Tiger ever was in its early days and so far, I think it is as stable (and certainly much faster) than the latest version of Tiger.

John mentions something about Spotlight maybe making the whole system faster. Whatever it is, it is much appreciated. Our G5 seems like a new machine. I can only imagine those of you lucky enough to have one of the new Intel machines. :D

Reading your post made me smile now...I've just bought Leopard here in Switzerland and am going to install it in a few hours...

I am glad to see that G5 iMacs benefit A LOT from the best OS in the world...wish me luck in the upgrade process and...GO APPLE! :)

p.s.: This week I will install an extra gig to be with 2Gb as well..! ;)

CJD2112
Oct 29, 2007, 01:08 PM
IMHO, the "Real Stacks" (tm) is a smart folder tuned to look for a particular document type and sorted in time of last access or last modification and viewed in coverflow mode.

For example, you could have a smart folder that tracks all your powerpoint slides, then when you need the slides that you worked on, say sometime around April, you just scan back back to that general period and use Coverflow and Quicklook to quickly identify the document.

Ahhh, that's really clever. So basically a stack folder should be like a "smart playlist" or mailbox, in that you can configure it to put all of any one particular file into it automatically. As you stated, if you wanted a smart folder to gather all your PDF's you can configure one. Does this exist in Leopard?

morespce54
Oct 29, 2007, 01:09 PM
...The new "fuzzy orb" for active applications is probably my biggest gripe in the whole of Leopard and I hope someone comes up with a hack to make it more contrast-y whilst keeping the 3D glass look which I like....


http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20071025084657387

wplate
Oct 29, 2007, 01:09 PM
Stacks are USELESS! the ability to dock a folder and have it act as a pop-up menu in which you could navigate to subfolders was so useful, I was rarely using the finder to get to files, now I have to because stacks can't do the menu option, sure they look cool and are all nice and spring loaded (which would have been nice to add to the menu version) but a choice would have been nice!
Just add that as a further option, menu view or something.
I'm unhappy because they took a perfectly fine feature, a useful one and reduced it to these graphically cool but totally useless stacks!

I completely agree. I used to have my Applications folder in my dock too, and now instead of the Applications folder icon I get the icon of the first application in the folder. Not very handy at all.

ChrisA
Oct 29, 2007, 01:11 PM
It still baffle's me. Apple has like an 18,000 head count......Microsoft has a 70,000 head count or something and Microsoft just can't get anything right right out of the box. It's one of the mysteries of life I guess I'm never going to understand.

There is a classic book that explains this. "The Mythical Man-Month" Wikipedia has a good summary of it at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man-Month
It covers the development of a new OS and explains what throwing resources (people) at a task many times is counter productive. I think no one at Microsoft ever read this. I'd call the book "required reading" for anyone managing a software development effort or any computer science student.

CJD2112
Oct 29, 2007, 01:13 PM
I prefer the blue orb to the triangles, I think they're effective. As well, the reflective dock is nice. The stacks are kinda "meh" I don't really care either way.

I wonder why Apple doesn't get rid of the triangle and blue orb indicators and instead try for something really different, such as changing an icon all together when an application is opened. For example, in the resources of its contents package, have another version of a dock icon for an application, and give it a blue glow or something of the sort. This would be a much better indicator instead of a small object under the application, but make sure it isn't too flashy and becomes a distraction. Maybe even have "Active" in small letters across the opened application icon in the dock, I don't know, anything seems great other than a tiny little orb that might be difficult for some people to see. Just a thought, not a complaint, I like Leopard ;).

cohibadad
Oct 29, 2007, 01:18 PM
Well, I have to say that 10.5 is in the very early days (obviously). I think a lot of new users are forgetting that it's better to upgrade once some people have worked through the kinks - or embrace kinks and be part of the upgrade experience.


Agreed.

ZrSiO4-Zircon
Oct 29, 2007, 01:19 PM
I just had an idea about the Stacks issue...
What if you make an alias of the Applications, Movies, etc. folders and place them in the dock? Would that function like the old Tiger dock folders? This way, you're not placing empty folders/icons in each of the folders.
I dont' have Leopard yet, but it'll be waiting for me at home after work!

edit: Heck, you can even go in and change the icon of the aliases to use Tiger folder icons. hmmmmm...

morespce54
Oct 29, 2007, 01:20 PM
...Try this for a week- take ALL of your apps out of the dock, put it on the LH or RH side on autohide. Now, whatever you see on the dock you automatically know is a running program and you can use it to switch apps without hunting for dots and triangles. Just use spotlight or quicksilver to launch apps and you'll find that you can type up the app, folder, or file before you could hunt it down on the dock.

Or simply use:
CMD (apple) + TAB
and
CMD + SHIFT + TAB ???

cazlar
Oct 29, 2007, 01:25 PM
Great review as always, but with all the changes to the Dock, I was wondering if the option to dim hidden apps was still there? This is one of the first things I enable when I'm setting up a new Mac, and I believe it should be the default, not a hidden pref. Can anyone with Leopard check for me?

defaults write com.apple.Dock showhidden -bool YES

carbonmotion
Oct 29, 2007, 01:27 PM
all i read about leopard are praises... while i have to admit, the os is not terrible, it's certainly not good either. the embossed fonts, dock, and menu bar translucency are totally tacky, what was jobs thinking? if i wanted to see real time reflections, i would just fire up my xbox and play some halo

0racle
Oct 29, 2007, 01:29 PM
Really lenghtly review, and I actually disagree with a lot of his dislikes on the visual improvements.
...
Other than that, the way he talks about all the under the hood improvements is really informative and was great to read.
I agree. The gripes about visual improvements are opinions, which I happen to disagree with. The behind the scenes parts though are much more interesting, especially as you can't just see the changes.

Ok, the Stacks problem (subfolders in the stack) is a problem. I expect it will be worked out soon. I'll be a little disappointed if it still exists past 10.5.3.

Object-X
Oct 29, 2007, 01:34 PM
So why does Apple give us full screen viewing of an individual file in the Finder, but not a directory? Lame. Coverflow in the Finder without full-screen mode is really stupid. Either go all the way or not at all Apple.

Full screen mode in iTunes does not remain persistent when used with Spaces, but full screen veiwing in Preview does. Lame.

Street light controls on windows were redone and look wrong to me. Wierd.

Menu bar at the top can not be hidden, nor is translucency adjustable. Irritating.

Adjusting the terminal perferences is confusing.

To be fair, I had the same problems with Tiger when it came out, but it grew on me.

Vista still sucks so I guess I'll stick with Leopard.

Here is hoping Amiga OS 5 will be as good as they claim...better than OS X is what they are saying. Hard to believe, but I sure hope it's true.

RossT
Oct 29, 2007, 01:34 PM
I've thrown together a small app that lives in the Dock and provides a popup menu for the Applications folder, very similar to the the old behavior we got by dragging the Applications folder to the Dock. If anyone would like to give it a try and and send me some feedback, I'd appreciate it.

Download the app or the source code at http://rosscarter.com/2007/41.html

I'm just trying to provide a free fix for this gigantic step backward.

Ross

Zadillo
Oct 29, 2007, 01:46 PM
So why does Apple give us full screen viewing of an individual file in the Finder, but not a directory? Lame. Coverflow in the Finder without full-screen mode is really stupid. Either go all the way or not at all Apple.

Full screen mode in iTunes does not remain persistent when used with Spaces, but full screen veiwing in Preview does. Lame.

Street light controls on windows were redone and look wrong to me. Wierd.

Menu bar at the top can not be hidden, nor is translucency adjustable. Irritating.

Adjusting the terminal perferences is confusing.

To be fair, I had the same problems with Tiger when it came out, but it grew on me.

Vista still sucks so I guess I'll stick with Leopard.

Here is hoping Amiga OS 5 will be as good as they claim...better than OS X is what they are saying. Hard to believe, but I sure hope it's true.

They have been making promises about Amiga OS for years. You are setting yourself up for massive disappointment if you actually believe him when he says Amiga OS 5 is going to be better than OS X, if it even comes out.

Zadillo
Oct 29, 2007, 01:47 PM
Hopefully this review will help quiet those calling Leopard a service pack, or 10.4.11.

Let's be honest, the kinds of people trolling with the "Leopard is just a service pack" bit do not care about the substance of the claim, nor are they likely to actually read an in-depth article like this.

They will continue calling Leopard a service pack because it makes them feel better about their hatred for Apple.

-Zadillo

mrpither
Oct 29, 2007, 01:57 PM
...

It still baffle's me. Apple has like an 18,000 head count......Microsoft has a 70,000 head count or something and Microsoft just can't get anything right right out of the box. It's one of the mysteries of life I guess I'm never going to understand.

right right out of the box - right... there was an update to leopard in software update the day after it was released. my tiger is at 10.4.10, and .11 is due any day now. never mind the countless mini patches and fixes that have come out. and i expect 10.5.1 etc etc and beyond in the coming weeks/months. anyone remember how long it took for 10.4.1 after tiger first pounced?

hope this helps some with that mystery... :D

manu chao
Oct 29, 2007, 01:58 PM
Maybe no one will even notice that view style changes are no longer preserved automatically.

Well I sure as hell noticed, and it pisses me off. I'll be gritting my teeth as I wander my hard drives, manually pinning down the view style of each folder I care about. I'll grimace every time I naively change a view style only to be surprised later when I realize that my change was ignored because I forgot to (re)pin it manually.

That probably will be my biggest personal grievance about 10.5. I don't mind the mixture between browser and spatial view of the Finder. In fact, I would call it browsing a spatial view. Only occasionally I would like like to be able to open a new window from the current window without having to start browsing there from zero.

I always hated the Start menu in Windows, navigating to two, three, or even more submenus to open an app seemed like one of the most complicated methods one can think of. I therefore never put folders in the Dock. Folders always go into the sidebar with me. To be frank, I rarely put anything into the right side of the Dock. Once I minimize a window, I usually very quickly forget that I minimized it and usually open it again rather than realizing that it sits in the Dock already.

manu chao
Oct 29, 2007, 02:09 PM
That said, I am totally with the dock loathers, and ever since I switched to Mac, never quite managed to make it useful. Since I got good at using quicksilver/spotlight, I have given up on using the dock for anything but a task switcher, and everything Apple has done with it has just reinforced this behavior.

Try this for a week- take ALL of your apps out of the dock, put it on the LH or RH side on autohide. Now, whatever you see on the dock you automatically know is a running program and you can use it to switch apps without hunting for dots and triangles. Just use spotlight or quicksilver to launch apps and you'll find that you can type up the app, folder, or file before you could hunt it down on the dock.

I agree, the Dock works best as an app switcher (and file opener). Use it for that only and most gripes with it will go away.

50548
Oct 29, 2007, 02:18 PM
So why does Apple give us full screen viewing of an individual file in the Finder, but not a directory? Lame. Coverflow in the Finder without full-screen mode is really stupid. Either go all the way or not at all Apple.

Full screen mode in iTunes does not remain persistent when used with Spaces, but full screen veiwing in Preview does. Lame.

Street light controls on windows were redone and look wrong to me. Wierd.

Menu bar at the top can not be hidden, nor is translucency adjustable. Irritating.

Adjusting the terminal perferences is confusing.

To be fair, I had the same problems with Tiger when it came out, but it grew on me.

Vista still sucks so I guess I'll stick with Leopard.

Here is hoping Amiga OS 5 will be as good as they claim...better than OS X is what they are saying. Hard to believe, but I sure hope it's true.

This is as close to trolling as one could go without actually doing it...

Although you've defended it before, the concept of full screen for "everything" is pretty much useless and counter-productive, to say the least...Apple is wise enough to enable full screen usage when it IS useful. Full screen for viewing files? Come on...viewing files has no purpose by itself; it's a means for doing something else with them.

The two other comments relate to "lighting" in a purely subjective manner.

In other words, all this ranting for pretty much nothing. As for AmigaOS, it's never been good and it never will be...it's a dead platform. So if you feel like choosing a great OS, at least pick GS/OS which was much better and better designed...apart from the overhyped Amiga multitasking, its OS was useless for serious tasks; and the Amiga Workbench was simply ridiculous. So calm down, take a pill and come back later with more constructive comments, please.

Maccus Aurelius
Oct 29, 2007, 02:22 PM
I disagree about the look of the dock, but agree that the stacks is not versatile enough to be really useful for anything beyond organizing a downloads folder.

I personally love the whole look of the OS, and have already been enjoying a lot of the little improvements that really do make all the difference.

I am noticing that my boot time can be a tad long, and was considering doing a clean install rather than an upgrade. I already backed up with Time Machine and was considering starting over. Can I do a clean install and recover my files without issue?

Avatar74
Oct 29, 2007, 02:25 PM
Siracusa makes an EXCELLENT point about the space and time theme... I used to joke that Microsoft's slogan should be, "Where did you want to go yesterday?"

Microsoft's "Where do you want to go today" slogan, from a technical standpoint, exemplifies instant obsolescence because today is not where people want to go.

Today is where you are. Where you want to go is in the future... Naturally, the brainiacs at Apple Marketing used this slogan for Leopard, whose most prominent features are Space(s) and Time (Machine).

The slogan?

"Hello, tomorrow."

Absolutely brilliant.

mixel
Oct 29, 2007, 02:25 PM
Here is hoping Amiga OS 5 will be as good as they claim...better than OS X is what they are saying. Hard to believe, but I sure hope it's true.

When "They" = Bill McEwen I wouldn't hold my breath.. How many other things have Amiga Inc said that turned out to be wishful thinking?

Oops Zadillo got there first. :D

Anyway, I loved the Ars review - I'd never have known about most of it, and I agree with most of his gripes on the cosmetics. Stacks are bizarre, I really think they should reenable the old option, exactly how he implemented it in his mockup!

Saying that, actually being able to manipulate the files in stacks is a bonus! You can't do that in a simple popup menu.. its nice being able to drag crap out of a stack to trash it without having to go into the finder.. Maybe they could make a Stack setting letting you enable a much bigger grid? Thatd be nice.

I'm exactly on the fence in regards to the see-through menubar.. It does seem daft. Certainly should be optional.

notjustjay
Oct 29, 2007, 02:39 PM
Those of you with PB G4's, how much RAM do you have? My 12" G4 is still running Tiger on 512 MB. I want to upgrade to Leopard, but wonder if it's worthwhile... I'll probably have to max it out at 1.25 GB.

extensor
Oct 29, 2007, 02:51 PM
This is as close to trolling as one could go without actually doing it...

Although you've defended it before, the concept of full screen for "everything" is pretty much useless and counter-productive, to say the least...Apple is wise enough to enable full screen usage when it IS useful. Full screen for viewing files? Come on...viewing files has no purpose by itself; it's a means for doing something else with them.

The two other comments relate to "lighting" in a purely subjective manner.

In other words, all this ranting for pretty much nothing. As for AmigaOS, it's never been good and it never will be...it's a dead platform. So if you feel like choosing a great OS, at least pick GS/OS which was much better and better designed...apart from the overhyped Amiga multitasking, its OS was useless for serious tasks; and the Amiga Workbench was simply ridiculous. So calm down, take a pill and come back later with more constructive comments, please.

I've got to say the reason I moved from Windows to OS X is because it is becoming more and more like the Amiga from the late 80's. To say the Amiga OS was useless for serious tasks is ridiculous. Since this is OT I won't elaborate unless you request it. Would I be correct in guessing that you are a former AtariST user? ::p

Virgil-TB2
Oct 29, 2007, 02:56 PM
It's now becoming an accepted fact that, although Stacks add a nice feature for some users, for many other users it's a HUGE downgrade in functionality of a feature that many people rely on. ... Other than the stacks debacle, Leopard looks like an awesome upgrade.After reading the Ars review I think I finally understand (a bit), why so many people are whining so loudly about the dock and stacks, but am I the only one getting sick of hearing about it?

I think people need to remind themselves (and this is hardly ever mentioned in the same breath as the complaints), that this is one of those things that was removed at the last second by Apple. It's fairly likely that they will at least attempt to address these problems with the first point upgrades, so can we all just stop tearing our hair out over it for a while? :)

The important thing to remember here is that the solution for these problems has already been demonstrated. I saw the video on the Apple website demo these abilities during the months it was up; didn't anyone else? The functionality that would make Stacks more useable was already there, (smart folders and user configurable folders), it was simply removed (presumably because it didn't work right) from the Golden Master, and will almost certainly be back in one of the first updates.

It's not a coincidence that the videos demonstrating these bits of functionality have been removed from Apple's web site and replaced with the "Apple Leopard Tour." The ability of Stacks to use smart folders and to be used as a file launcher in the same way as the 10.4 functionality was in works, right up until the release of the GM. The ability of Time Machine to back up wirelessly (also one of it's main features), was also part of the plan. Removing features that don't work right (temporarily) at the last second is sadly, a fairly standard thing.

What are the real odds that these features (that Apple mentioned in their own advertising right up until release date), are going to be missing for very long?

HLdan
Oct 29, 2007, 02:57 PM
Stacks are USELESS! the ability to dock a folder and have it act as a pop-up menu in which you could navigate to subfolders was so useful, I was rarely using the finder to get to files, now I have to because stacks can't do the menu option, sure they look cool and are all nice and spring loaded (which would have been nice to add to the menu version) but a choice would have been nice!
Just add that as a further option, menu view or something.
I'm unhappy because they took a perfectly fine feature, a useful one and reduced it to these graphically cool but totally useless stacks!

While your argument about Stacks is valid I have to disagree with you when you say Stacks is useless. It's only useless to people who see it as useless. You say that because there's no more menu option to access files well the grid view does give you full access to your files so you don't need to access the Finder. Yes, fan view sucks because if there's too many files it will tell you to get the rest from the Finder but you have a choice and if you choose to use only the fan view you will have to use the Finder at some point.

Detektiv-Pinky
Oct 29, 2007, 02:59 PM
I also feel the same way. A good way to customize the stack icon is, put an icon you like in the stack folder and name it 0. Then sort by name.

Here is a screenshot of mine, I used a bag icon and it looks like my apps are stuffed inside ;-)

Hey, while this solves some of the issue, I would technically call this a hack.

It should not be necessary to have people hunting for hacks for an OS that claims to be superior in usability. I think what people are asking for is to have the choice to adapt the UI of their computer to their personal necessities and comfort level. I do not think there is an 'one-size-fits-all' solution. Foregoing choice and self-determination is actually what is driving people mad - or to switch to other systems.

mixel
Oct 29, 2007, 02:59 PM
As for AmigaOS, it's never been good and it never will be...it's a dead platform. So if you feel like choosing a great OS, at least pick GS/OS which was much better and better designed...apart from the overhyped Amiga multitasking, its OS was useless for serious tasks; and the Amiga Workbench was simply ridiculous. So calm down, take a pill and come back later with more constructive comments, please.

I take offense at your attitude here, you can like something else in another system and hate something in a system without it meaning the OS sucks. Ars Technica definitely disagree with you too, as to anyone who used and loved the Amiga. Have you even seen a modern Amiga setup? It's prettier than Windows, thats for sure. (I'm not saying that's difficult)

There's a lot to love in AmigaOS AND osX.. I couldn't use AmigaOS now as a primary platform, but it was, and IS a good system. Certain features osX is only just catching up now. How is it that things are "overhyped" when another system does it, but important when the Mac does it? Hmm.. I've noticed Mac guys doing that a lot!

How is it useless for serious tasks? How was it ridiculous? I'd argue Leopard (visually) is considerably more ridiculous, lol. (in a fun way that I appreciate at least) it was used for serious tasks in multiple industries.
I guess the point is; Why attack something so vehemently? What did AmigaOS ever do to you? :P

I would agree about it being a dead platform (in the most part) but that doesn't mean its not a worthwhile one. I hate when people dismiss something just because they don't use it, I hate it when its targetted at the Mac, I hate it when It's targetted at the Amiga, QNX, BeOS, etc.. There's a lot these systems (and their users) could learn from each other.. And there's certainly more to appreciate in Workbench than just the multitasking..

But AmigaOS will never be a threat to osX or any of the big players - they had their chance, best it can do is find another niche.

Glad to see extensor stick up for the Amiga camp too.. I feel bad for elaborating so much, lol.

Detektiv-Pinky
Oct 29, 2007, 03:06 PM
<snip>

Menu bar at the top can not be hidden, nor is translucency adjustable. Irritating.

<snip>

There is another hack for this: create a custom background image with a white stripe at the top, just as wide as the menu - voila - a non transparent menu bar! :eek:

<sarcastic-on>
I wonder that Apple still let's people get away with such easy tinkering to destroy their fancy UI features.
Changing Desktop backgrounds will be disabled in 10.6!
<sarcastic-off>

Virgil-TB2
Oct 29, 2007, 03:11 PM
The point about the transparency issue with the menu bar isn't one of personal preference - the fact that you use a light backdrop that doesn't interfere with the menu isn't an argument to say that transparent menu bars are a good idea. The point surely is that under certain circumstances i.e. certain desktop backgrounds, the menu is literally unreadable - that is not an opinion just a fact.I have to disagree with you in turn. :)

The one slight disagreement I have with the Ars review is that it *does* veer into personal preference arguments over issues like the Dock and the Menu Bar. To their credit, the author even acknowledges this (for the most part).

Personally, I hate the idea of a semi-transparent menu-bar, but there are those that find it fantastic. This is personal preference.

I have yet to see any argument anyone has made that in any way proves that it limits functionality however. The same goes for the 3-D dock. Lots' like it, lots hate it. But the functionality is basically either the same as the old dock or slightly improved. The fact that the issue is cosmetic and preference based is proven by the fact that a cosmetic change (2D dock hack), is all that is necessary for it to be "fixed" in the minds of most users.

The stacks argument is different, but in terms of the 3-D dock and the menubar there does not seem to be any "functional" problem. Transparency has (unfortunately IMO), been used throughout the system but everywhere it is used, great care has been taken not to reduce legibility or functionality. There is no point at which a menu even approaches illegibility for instance and to indicate otherwise is to exaggerate wildly IMO.

richard4339
Oct 29, 2007, 03:16 PM
Siracusa is, however, enthusiastic about Time Machine ("people will actually use") and describes steady and significant improvements in Mac OS X's performance and responsiveness. Leopard's kernel is also said to be better about scheduling processes, allowing you to make better use of multi-core CPUs.

That's actually one thing I've really noticed about Leopard; it actually seems slower than Tiger on my machine. I'm running it on a MacBook Pro (second gen) with 2gb of ram, but I'm trying to let it run a little bit to "break it in", because I've noticed in the past that it can take a few reboots to get up to normal speeds.

psychofreak
Oct 29, 2007, 03:18 PM
That's actually one thing I've really noticed about Leopard; it actually seems slower than Tiger on my machine. I'm running it on a MacBook Pro (second gen) with 2gb of ram, but I'm trying to let it run a little bit to "break it in", because I've noticed in the past that it can take a few reboots to get up to normal speeds.

Did you upgrade or erase+install? If it was an upgrade, an erase might help a lot...

jpine
Oct 29, 2007, 03:29 PM
Hope I have not missed this. This seems to be a very active thread. Does anyone know if there are issues with 10.5 and the following:

Lightwave8
Photoshop8

TIA!

BTW, how many posts do I need to get promoted from Newbie to Regular?:D

gwangung
Oct 29, 2007, 03:48 PM
I have to disagree with you in turn. :)

The one slight disagreement I have with the Ars review is that it *does* veer into personal preference arguments over issues like the Dock and the Menu Bar. To their credit, the author even acknowledges this (for the most part).

Personally, I hate the idea of a semi-transparent menu-bar, but there are those that find it fantastic. This is personal preference.

I have yet to see any argument anyone has made that in any way proves that it limits functionality however. The same goes for the 3-D dock. Lots' like it, lots hate it. But the functionality is basically either the same as the old dock or slightly improved. The fact that the issue is cosmetic and preference based is proven by the fact that a cosmetic change (2D dock hack), is all that is necessary for it to be "fixed" in the minds of most users.

The stacks argument is different, but in terms of the 3-D dock and the menubar there does not seem to be any "functional" problem. Transparency has (unfortunately IMO), been used throughout the system but everywhere it is used, great care has been taken not to reduce legibility or functionality. There is no point at which a menu even approaches illegibility for instance and to indicate otherwise is to exaggerate wildly IMO.

I think this is a good point.

Personal preferences DO have a place in evaluating changes to a personal computer...and while they do impact on usability, they aren't one and the same, after all...

Avatar74
Oct 29, 2007, 03:51 PM
I think Siracusa may have answered his own question regarding some of the icons. When he starts discussing resolution independence... could it be that the old folder icons made resolution independence a lot trickier to implement successfully? It certainly seems the new folders look a lot easier to manage from that perspective. They just need maybe a very faint color difference in the embossed part for better visibility of the folder category. Other than that, the old angled folders are definitely out of date for the new desktop and hardware case designs.

flopticalcube
Oct 29, 2007, 03:52 PM
I have yet to see any argument anyone has made that in any way proves that it limits functionality however. The same goes for the 3-D dock. Lots' like it, lots hate it. But the functionality is basically either the same as the old dock or slightly improved. The fact that the issue is cosmetic and preference based is proven by the fact that a cosmetic change (2D dock hack), is all that is necessary for it to be "fixed" in the minds of most users.

The stacks argument is different, but in terms of the 3-D dock and the menubar there does not seem to be any "functional" problem. Transparency has (unfortunately IMO), been used throughout the system but everywhere it is used, great care has been taken not to reduce legibility or functionality. There is no point at which a menu even approaches illegibility for instance and to indicate otherwise is to exaggerate wildly IMO.

This is true except when it impairs the GPU. My MacBook suffered from stuttering and choppiness until I converted the dock to 2D. There is a functional dimension to this.

carbonmotion
Oct 29, 2007, 03:58 PM
This is true except when it impairs the GPU. My MacBook suffered from stuttering and choppiness until I converted the dock to 2D. There is a functional dimension to this.

no its not actually 3d... its the real time reflections that your intel gpu is choking on

Cloudane
Oct 29, 2007, 04:02 PM
http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20071025084657387

Sweet... thanks. From there I can see the images necessary to hopefully turn that fuzzy blob back into a triangle :)

carbonmotion
Oct 29, 2007, 04:03 PM
of the five professional graphic/ motion/ web designers who work for big ad agencies that I know, all of them hate the new interface. I can't say I disagree. There is something to be said about subtly and refinement, the new menu bar and dock is just all bling bling. I feel like Tiger was a Mercedes S class and Leopard was a Mercedes S class with duo-tone paint, 22" chrome rims, and a body kit. If that's your thing, then by all means have your cake and eat it too. If not, then you're inclined to feel a little disappointed like myself and others.

Alloye
Oct 29, 2007, 04:14 PM
of the five professional graphic/ motion/ web designers who work for big ad agencies that I know, all of them hate the new interface. I can't say I disagree. There is something to be said about subtly and refinement, the new menu bar and dock is just all bling bling. I feel like Tiger was a Mercedes S class and Leopard was a Mercedes S class with duo-tone paint, 22" chrome rims, and a body kit. If that's your thing, then by all means have your cake and eat it too. If not, then you're inclined to feel a little disappointed like myself and others.

Fair enough. But then it's also fair to say Tiger was a Mercedes S class with a different color paint on every body panel. ;)

axcess99
Oct 29, 2007, 04:20 PM
This is true except when it impairs the GPU. My MacBook suffered from stuttering and choppiness until I converted the dock to 2D. There is a functional dimension to this.

Strange, reflections are almost trivial in terms of the amount of overhead, especailly with Apple's OpenGL rendering engine. 3D vs 2D has no impact on my aging 1Ghz G4 PowerBook.

There is probably a bug there somewhere that will hopefully get streamlined/fixed for your much more powerful and newer laptop.

carbonmotion
Oct 29, 2007, 04:21 PM
PLUS,

Functionally, the new Leopard work just as well as Tiger, but most people justify the cost of upgrade because of the new look and features. Most of the "new" features don't work for me personally, but they might work for a lot of other people who need them.

Fortunately, my friends and I split a family license, so the cost of Leopard wasn't bad at all.

breal8406
Oct 29, 2007, 04:33 PM
http://blogs.cnet.com/8301-13506_1-9806255-17.html

I think Apple saw this coming. It's been known for a few years now Windows is becoming bloated. I think Apple's engineers know that in it's current form the Windows architecture won't hold up to a competitor that releases major upgrades so quickly. At least not while being so stubborn about backward compatibility.

I got a theory that Apple is hoping if it just keeps the new versions of OS X coming every 12 to 18 months that Windows will just collapse on top of itself from bloat while trying to keep up.

If that happens then, at least according to Steve, Windows, one of the few examples of hardware & software decoupling working super well...is out of the picture and Apple takes top spot in a revolutionized electronics industry where hardware & software are coupled together.

It's wishful thinking but I don't think the thought is all that far fetched.

redkamel
Oct 29, 2007, 04:39 PM
here is my unofficial Leopard review (Using for a few hours). I was a terrible naysayer before. Here is what I didn't like before: Time machine pointless for me (I am very organized and do backups anyhow), quicklook also useless for me, stacks looked "ok" and too much eye candy. Eye candy was the least of my concerns.

Now after using Leopard....
the new dock is a blight. Terrible! Cant read it, cant click on it! Had to fix with terminal after a few hours, after almost becoming a side docker.

Stacks is ugly. The Fan fonts are fuzzy and it is very distracting. The Grid view, at least is passable. Unfortunately I can't turn it off and go back to the old mode..have to use aliases.

The clear menu bar is terrible. I cant even read it, and the transluceny is distracting.

Spaces, I dont use it. Quicklook, dont need it. Time machine, now I dont have to do backups so its nice.

brightness controls still dont go low enough.

unfortunately, quicklook turns all small icons into previews. So instead of looking for a .doc icon for a document, I get these white icons on a white background in a white window. Very hard to find them.

The new folders are kinda cool, but VERY plain. No color on them either.

So bascially, my concerns flipped: all the new features I thought were a waste of money are ok, or can be ignored (except Stacks, but whatever, I am sure the fan effect pleases some), and the eye candy/icon changes are terrible. Seriously, did anyone even use this before release? If I wasnt so lazy i would switch back to Tiger. If you have Tiger and like it fine, like I did, dont upgrade!!! Apple what have you done to your UI!!!?!??

50548
Oct 29, 2007, 04:39 PM
I've got to say the reason I moved from Windows to OS X is because it is becoming more and more like the Amiga from the late 80's. To say the Amiga OS was useless for serious tasks is ridiculous. Since this is OT I won't elaborate unless you request it. Would I be correct in guessing that you are a former AtariST user? ::p

Nope, Apple IIGS user actually...much better OS (really Mac-like), full backwards compatibility with Apple II and a wonderful sound capability unmatched up to this very day...:rolleyes:

Have ya ever used Workbench? What about that ridiculous Commodore mouse...there is no comparison, although games and sampling apps were great.

here is my unofficial Leopard review (Using for a few hours). I was a terrible naysayer before. Here is what I didn't like before: Time machine pointless for me (I am very organized and do backups anyhow), quicklook also useless for me, stacks looked "ok" and too much eye candy. Eye candy was the least of my concerns.

Now after using Leopard....
the new dock is a blight. Terrible! Cant read it, cant click on it! Had to fix with terminal after a few hours, after almost becoming a side docker.

Stacks is ugly. The Fan fonts are fuzzy and it is very distracting. The Grid view, at least is passable. Unfortunately I can't turn it off and go back to the old mode..have to use aliases.

The clear menu bar is terrible. I cant even read it, and the transluceny is distracting.

Spaces, I dont use it. Quicklook, dont need it. Time machine, now I dont have to do backups so its nice.

brightness controls still dont go low enough.

unfortunately, quicklook turns all small icons into previews. So instead of looking for a .doc icon for a document, I get these white icons on a white background in a white window. Very hard to find them.

The new folders are kinda cool, but VERY plain. No color on them either.

So bascially, my concerns flipped: all the new features I thought were a waste of money are ok, or can be ignored (except Stacks, but whatever, I am sure the fan effect pleases some), and the eye candy/icon changes are terrible. Seriously, did anyone even use this before release? If I wasnt so lazy i would switch back to Tiger. If you have Tiger and like it fine, like I did, dont upgrade!!! Apple what have you done to your UI!!!?!??

I am glad it's YOUR review...it sounds like Leopard is at the bottom of the pit, a ridiculous upgrade...at least 100% of the real reviewers out there say it's, AT THE VERY LEAST, great...so no, thanks, I will stick to Apple.

Alloye
Oct 29, 2007, 04:48 PM
Nope, Apple IIGS user actually...much better OS (really Mac-like), full backwards compatibility with Apple II and a wonderful sound capability unmatched up to this very day...:rolleyes:

Have ya ever used Workbench? What about that ridiculous Commodore mouse...there is no comparison, although games and sampling apps were great.

Hmmm... The two GS users I knew back then were so jealous of my Amiga that they switched. But you're right about one thing: The GS was very Mac-like.

flopticalcube
Oct 29, 2007, 04:50 PM
no its not actually 3d... its the real time reflections that your intel gpu is choking on

On reflection (LOL!) its probably not the GPU but something else. My mini has the reflective dock (no reflections in the 2D dock) and is not at all choppy. I have also seen posters complain about dock choppiness on MBPs.

Strange, reflections are almost trivial in terms of the amount of overhead, especailly with Apple's OpenGL rendering engine. 3D vs 2D has no impact on my aging 1Ghz G4 PowerBook.

There is probably a bug there somewhere that will hopefully get streamlined/fixed for your much more powerful and newer laptop.

That is what I am thinking.

compuguy1088
Oct 29, 2007, 05:12 PM
Hopefully this review will help quiet those calling Leopard a service pack, or 10.4.11.

Well, for one thing, there is actually a real 10.4.11 in development, as previously mentioned in the past. So from an initial standpoint you really cannot call it a minor update, when they are already working on it, separate to Leopard.

ntg
Oct 29, 2007, 05:20 PM
Hmmm... The two GS users I knew back then were so jealous of my Amiga that they switched. But you're right about one thing: The GS was very Mac-like.

I used to love my VIC20/C64 for ADSR sound and sprite graphics, but I have to agree - my GS was wonderful, and is still around 'just in case' (I would love to get all my old Apples running and useful again one day...)

Those of you with PB G4's, how much RAM do you have? My 12" G4 is still running Tiger on 512 MB. I want to upgrade to Leopard, but wonder if it's worthwhile... I'll probably have to max it out at 1.25 GB.

I have 2x 512Mb PC2700 SODIMMs installed, a newer 5400rpm 100Gb H/D and I upped the spec to the 128Mb ATI Mobility Radeon 9700 card when I ordered it (since Apple appeared to be offloading more and more work to the GPU, I spent extra money on the hunch!)

It may not break any records for Photoshop work these days, but it's my main Apple until I replace it with a new MBP in January, and considering it is now 169 weeks old, it still has that sleek wow factor.

Nig.

obirah
Oct 29, 2007, 05:20 PM
The review was pretty long but it gave me a really in-depth information of the new system. It was really funny and it's good to get explained stuff that I as a graphic designer would never find out or understand by myself :p

SiliconAddict
Oct 29, 2007, 05:23 PM
John is a god, not the God just a god, when it comes to OS X reviews. :D And I love the fact that he never pulls any punches when it comes to slamming Apple for bone-headed choices. Case in point.

When it comes to at-a-glance identification, the difference is striking. I find myself literally squinting at the Leopard special folder icons, as if I'm constantly not seeing them clearly. You can find a more rigorous examination of the new folder icons at Indie HIG (a site whose mere existence is a blot on Apple's recent user interface record).

Poorly designed folder icons aren't the end of the world, but it's the context that's so maddening. Here's an interface element that maybe could have used some freshening up, but it was far from broken. Apple's gone and made it worse in a way that's obvious in seconds to anyone who's ever given any thought to interface design. It boggles the mind. The rumor is that Jobs likes them. Great.

OR

Seriously, pseudo-3D? Really? If a compulsion for gaudiness must be quenched, at least try to confine such exercises to more obscure features. Don't scribble all over the second-most visible interface element in the entire OS like a nine year-old girl putting make-up on her dollie.


:D


The review was pretty long but it gave me a really in-depth information of the new system. It was really funny and it's good to get explained stuff that I as a graphic designer would never find out or understand by myself :p

You obviously never read his Tiger review. That thing reads like War and Peace. :D

DMann
Oct 29, 2007, 05:29 PM
Stacks are USELESS! the ability to dock a folder and have it act as a pop-up menu in which you could navigate to subfolders was so useful, I was rarely using the finder to get to files, now I have to because stacks can't do the menu option, sure they look cool and are all nice and spring loaded (which would have been nice to add to the menu version) but a choice would have been nice!
Just add that as a further option, menu view or something.
I'm unhappy because they took a perfectly fine feature, a useful one and reduced it to these graphically cool but totally useless stacks!

Just one hack of code away -- surely we'll be able to change the behaviors of stacks before long.

AndyMulhearn
Oct 29, 2007, 05:31 PM
The point about the transparency issue with the menu bar isn't one of personal preference - the fact that you use a light backdrop that doesn't interfere with the menu isn't an argument to say that transparent menu bars are a good idea. The point surely is that under certain circumstances i.e. certain desktop backgrounds, the menu is literally unreadable - that is not an opinion just a fact.

I have to say I thought he was reviewing a different version of the menu bar to the one I have. Until I changed my desktop from the photo of the Earth to one of the abstract colours. Barf, that translucent effect really has to go.

Digitalclips
Oct 29, 2007, 05:48 PM
Stacks are USELESS! the ability to dock a folder and have it act as a pop-up menu in which you could navigate to subfolders was so useful, I was rarely using the finder to get to files, now I have to because stacks can't do the menu option, sure they look cool and are all nice and spring loaded (which would have been nice to add to the menu version) but a choice would have been nice!
Just add that as a further option, menu view or something.
I'm unhappy because they took a perfectly fine feature, a useful one and reduced it to these graphically cool but totally useless stacks!

I agree, I love Leopard in every other way but I miss having nested folders in my dock and the ability to drill down to any level by just holding the mouse. Please Apple bring this back ... :)

choboko
Oct 29, 2007, 06:54 PM
i really like the stacks, but i think that's just me... maybe because i'm new to mac, but i used folders in the dock in tiger, and still think docks are great... maybe because i don't use large folder with it... but anyway, useless or not, they're beatiful :D

Super78
Oct 29, 2007, 07:25 PM
To be honest this update is a disaster that I won't recover from anytime soon. I am one of the lucky BLUE SCREEN folks. That after rushing to the genius bar was told to do an archive and install, which was devistating.

All prefs were wiped.
All accounts were lost email/ftp/address book etc.
Access privledges totally screwed up. I have to authenticate everything.
I can't get onto any network PC including our file server.
All apps need to be reinstalled.

I would not recommend 10.5 until the 10.5.1 release. This is the biggest misfire since 10.0. Constant pop-ups that mean nothing to the average user. Hey this is like windows.

BTW the find function now relies on spotlight having to crawl your data to find anything. And you no longer have the option to select a specific volume to search. Why on earth did they feel the need to f*#k with the find function. I am currently on hold with support I'll report back.

flopticalcube
Oct 29, 2007, 07:33 PM
To be honest this update is a disaster that I won't recover from anytime soon. I am one of the lucky BLUE SCREEN folks. That after rushing to the genius bar was told to do an archive and install, which was devistating.

All prefs were wiped.
All accounts were lost email/ftp/address book etc.
Access privledges totally screwed up. I have to authenticate everything.
I can't get onto any network PC including our file server.
All apps need to be reinstalled.

I would not recommend 10.5 until the 10.5.1 release. This is the biggest misfire since 10.0. Constant pop-ups that mean nothing to the average user. Hey this is like windows.

BTW the find function now relies on spotlight having to crawl your data to find anything. And you no longer have the option to select a specific volume to search. Why on earth did they feel the need to f*#k with the find function. I am currently on hold with support I'll report back.

Did you not have a bootable back up containing your old system? Erase & Install + Migration Assistant is the way to go here.

displaced
Oct 29, 2007, 07:40 PM
Did you not have a bootable back up containing your old system? Erase & Install + Migration Assistant is the way to go here.

Plus, the Blue Screen Of Death is caused entirely by Unsanity's Application Enhancer and its 'haxies'.

Specifically, it's due to an old version being installed.

So, several rules of thumb were stretched somewhat:

- Avoid haxies if you possibly, really, really, can.
- APE installs stuff into /System/. Nothing should ever install stuff there. That alone should set off alarm bells
- If you want to use it anyway, for the love of $DEITY, keep it updated!
- Uninstall it before installing a whole new operating system
- If you're running something that so seriously alters the behaviour of the system, do not be at all surprised if problems happen down the road.
- Take backups regularly, especially if you're running APE and are planning an OS update.

(although this might not be entirely self-inflicted. Logitech's 'Control Center' crapware installs APE without telling the user... How polite.)

shawnce
Oct 29, 2007, 08:02 PM
To be honest this update is a disaster that I won't recover from anytime soon. I am one of the lucky BLUE SCREEN folks. That after rushing to the genius bar was told to do an archive and install, which was devistating.

Umm archive and install wont blow away user accounts on the system... you sure you didn't do a erase and install by mistake?

Archive and install will move aside the currently install OS (/System/...) and install the new operation system while importing / maintaining the existing user accounts and their settings.

For more information... http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=107120

Di9it8
Oct 29, 2007, 08:06 PM
Fair enough. But then it's also fair to say Tiger was a Mercedes S class with a different color paint on every body panel. ;)

Dont you mean a vw polo:D

mixel
Oct 29, 2007, 08:32 PM
Nope, Apple IIGS user actually...much better OS (really Mac-like), full backwards compatibility with Apple II and a wonderful sound capability unmatched up to this very day...:rolleyes:

Have ya ever used Workbench? What about that ridiculous Commodore mouse...there is no comparison, although games and sampling apps were great.

I assume the rolleyes is a significator for sarcasm? :o I used workbench for years. Its a solid workhorse OS, which has probably crashed on me less than osX. When did you last use Workbench? Oddly enough it improved over the 10+ years Amigas were actively used. The GS was, and still does get owned by the Amigas and even ST variants that proceeded it. Don't put the Amiga with /completely/ dead architectures. "Mac-like" doesn't make something inherently better. Even Steve Jobs would agree after axing Apples legacy OS. You complaining about Amiga mice is exactly the same as people complaining about "one button" Mac mice.. there were many alternatives - and the Amiga one at least had 2 buttons to begin with. ;)

"Current" Amigas run on G4s and G3s.. How does the IIGS fare in comparison? People seem to think the Amiga stopped at the A500.. While you guys in the Mac camp were running 68040 based Macs, a lot of people were running 68040 based Amigas and loving it. With AGA(+) graphics, running around the internet, multitasking, making games and drawing in Deluxepaint. I have fond memories! Different doesn't have to equal bad. Windows guys laugh at mac guys and their "antiquated" weird hardware.. Get over it, you're no better than them, just picking on the next easy target.

There's still some stuff they've got in workbench I'd LOVE to see in later osX - if the system was without merit nobody could say that. (hmm, they've always had resolution independence for a start) - Spaces = not dissimilar to dragging screens around, something the amiga did in 1985 - very smoothly - You guys and your selective memories and feature values. :)

Minority systems should be united and look for strengths, not devolve into infighting fanboyism. The Amiga community was(/is?) one of the most tightly knit, creative, fun places, and I am truly proud to have been part of it. There was much less posing going on back then too. I'm sure the Mac camp was similar!


SO off topic it's not funny. At least it's tech related.. So its kind of.. maybe.. ok.. nothing to do with an Ars Technica article. XD

Back to Leopard's funky new underpinnings, in the last two days I've had 7 kernel panics, all to do with USB storage and probably Time Machine. I hadn't seen Kernel panic in years... Welcome back! Woohoo!

majordude
Oct 29, 2007, 08:35 PM
Dont you mean a vw polo:D

Wow. The Partridge Family has really fallen on hard times.

thogs_cave
Oct 29, 2007, 08:59 PM
I've been chewing my way through the Ars Technica article, and I'm impressed by the balance of the review. I've worked with so many OSs, from RSX-11 on PDP-11s to the current versions of Windows (Vista), Solaris (10), and various Leeeeeenux "distros", and OS X has come (in my mind) from an also-ran to the best UNIX desktop out there. (Solaris still takes the cake for servers.)

Apple has gotten smart and cherry-picked from the best open-source technologies out there (Like DTrace). Pretty much everything "under the hood" makes sense. It's good, it's solid, and it's fast.

Now, for those of us who are visually handicapped, the folder icons and menu bar are an issue. Ugly to say the least. But, there are already fixes in the works, and nobody bats a thousand. Overall, it's a winner.

Quillz
Oct 29, 2007, 09:38 PM
Completely disagree with his rant about the menu bar and the dock, I love the translucency and prefer "blue orbs" over black triangles. Those 2 items are what defines Leopard.
I agree, I'm a sucker for beautiful eye candy.

carbonmotion
Oct 29, 2007, 10:40 PM
being a mac user for a long time, I noticed my zeal decrease over time.

crazedbytheheat
Oct 29, 2007, 11:07 PM
I wonder why Apple doesn't get rid of the triangle and blue orb indicators and instead try for something really different, such as changing an icon all together when an application is opened. For example, in the resources of its contents package, have another version of a dock icon for an application, and give it a blue glow or something of the sort. This would be a much better indicator instead of a small object under the application, but make sure it isn't too flashy and becomes a distraction. Maybe even have "Active" in small letters across the opened application icon in the dock, I don't know, anything seems great other than a tiny little orb that might be difficult for some people to see. Just a thought, not a complaint, I like Leopard ;).

This is a *great* idea. They could easily make the icons of not running apps be grey-scale and then have the colored version for running apps. A quick glance would show what's running and what's not.

As an aside, the only reason (for me) to have apps in the doc that aren't running is to ensure that they are in the same order when they are. I use spotlight to launch almost everything.

crazedbytheheat
Oct 29, 2007, 11:11 PM
I would not recommend 10.5 until the 10.5.1 release. This is the biggest misfire since 10.0. Constant pop-ups that mean nothing to the average user. Hey this is like windows.


Sucks to be you. I, on the other hand, installed onto an MB Pro, an intel based iMac, and a G4 mac mini, all with zero issues. What a great life I now live!

Joecool5150
Oct 29, 2007, 11:24 PM
To be honest this update is a disaster that I won't recover from anytime soon. I am one of the lucky BLUE SCREEN folks. That after rushing to the genius bar was told to do an archive and install, which was devistating.

All prefs were wiped.
All accounts were lost email/ftp/address book etc.
Access privledges totally screwed up. I have to authenticate everything.
I can't get onto any network PC including our file server.
All apps need to be reinstalled.



I'm sorry, but anyone who goes out and installs a major update/upgrade to their current system WITHOUT backing up first, is sooooo asking for trouble!!

If the install goes south, at least you know everything is backed up and nothing is lost except a bit of your time. BACK UP!! You're a bonehead if you don't!! :confused:

stp2112
Oct 30, 2007, 03:41 AM
what are the specs on your powerbook? we have one more license left on our family pack and just for fun wondering if updating my incredibly aged powerbook is worth it or if i'll end up rendering it to the waste land before i'm ready to replace it . . .

I have installed Leopard on my G4 1.67G 17" PB and also on my nephew's 867MHz TiBook, had great results with both. I think the minimum requirements are 867MHz, if I am not mistaken......

stp2112
Oct 30, 2007, 03:43 AM
Those of you with PB G4's, how much RAM do you have? My 12" G4 is still running Tiger on 512 MB. I want to upgrade to Leopard, but wonder if it's worthwhile... I'll probably have to max it out at 1.25 GB.

My 17" 1.67G has 1.5G of ram and the 867MHz TiBook we upgraded on has 768 ram, both are working better than ever, faster and more responsive.

Cloudane
Oct 30, 2007, 05:27 AM
Another positive G4 report here.

Installed it on my 1.33 12" Powerbook, 768MB of RAM, and it actually seems slightly faster :eek:

rdsaunders
Oct 30, 2007, 05:40 AM
Well i'm running Leopard on a Powerbook G4 1.6ghz with 2Gb of Ram and the machine runs faster than with Tiger on it.

However anyone intalling an OS should really think about backing up there data, no operating system is problem free even Apples Mac OS X.

efengle
Oct 30, 2007, 05:50 AM
Has anyone noticed how clear iChat video is now? If I remember correctly, didn't Jobs say that the codec used for iChat video was to be improved? It definitely has been improved.

nvbrit
Oct 30, 2007, 05:55 PM
Does anyone know, if Leopard can be installed on an external USB drive, so I can test it out without getting rid of Tiger on my main drive right away?

carbonmotion
Oct 30, 2007, 05:59 PM
Does anyone know, if Leopard can be installed on an external USB drive, so I can test it out without getting rid of Tiger on my main drive right away?

if you have the required free space

iQuit
Oct 30, 2007, 06:01 PM
Leopard isn't a service pack. But it is in dire need of a "service pack".

I can't run hardly any apps intensively without them crashing, I have plenty of RAM and an up-to-date system as well. Not just me, though. My brother, dad, friends, and girlfriend's computers have the same problems. Leopard feels like it is still in development! It definately is "polished" visually. On the other hand the underpinnings need some serious work. What kind of beta testing team do they have? :mad:

flopticalcube
Oct 30, 2007, 06:04 PM
Leopard isn't a service pack. But it is in dire need of a "service pack".

I can't run hardly any apps intensively without them crashing, I have plenty of RAM and an up-to-date system as well. Not just me, though. My brother, dad, friends, and girlfriend's computers have the same problems. Leopard feels like it is still in development! It definately is "polished" visually. On the other hand the underpinnings need some serious work. What kind of beta testing team do they have? :mad:

Something is not right. Did you let the install check the DVD first? Are your apps Leopard ready? I haven't seen too many issues on MR of apps crashing in the last 5 days.

carbonmotion
Oct 30, 2007, 06:06 PM
Something is not right. Did you let the install check the DVD first? Are your apps Leopard ready? I haven't seen too many issues on MR of apps crashing in the last 5 days.

tiger ran like crap when it first came out too... it was not until 10.4.5 that it was actually usable.

iQuit
Oct 30, 2007, 06:23 PM
It seems as if Apple is now only in it for the money. I remember the feeling I used to get from them. I remember the quality they used to retain. I hope Apple doesn't drift from their cultural roots. The install DVD is fine, it's the OS itself that is the problem. I don't know if it is the fairly new INTEL architecture, but I never had these many crashes with PPC. Most people are too excited about all the new shiny features that they neglect the fact that Mac OSX is nowhere near as stable as it used to be. You can only expect that from a new architecture that needs to be recoded completely as well as operate instructions entirely differently. I am sure over time that OSX for Intel will become more stable, but for the time being this is the TRUTH. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not.



http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/3365/picture1gt6.th.png (http://img512.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture1gt6.png)

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/8721/picture2fj3.th.png (http://img513.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture2fj3.png)

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/9054/picture3tj9.th.png (http://img514.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture3tj9.png)

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/7712/picture4ic8.th.png (http://img516.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture4ic8.png)

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/2076/picture5ng3.th.png (http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture5ng3.png)

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/8823/picture6dm9.th.png (http://img153.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture6dm9.png)

flopticalcube
Oct 30, 2007, 06:26 PM
Most people are too excited about all the new shiny features that they neglect the fact that Mac OSX is nowhere near as stable as it used to be. You can only expect that from a new architecture that needs to be recoded completely as well as operate instructions entirely differently. I am sure over time that OSX for Intel will become more stable, but for the time being this is the TRUTH. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not.



Honestly, most people aren't experiencing crashes from what I have seen. Of course Apple is in it for the money, why else would they be? I can only acknowledge the reality that I see and I see a fairly stable OS so far.

carbonmotion
Oct 30, 2007, 06:31 PM
Honestly, most people aren't experiencing crashes from what I have seen. Of course Apple is in it for the money, why else would they be? I can only acknowledge the reality that I see and I see a fairly stable OS so far.

looks like a big copy of final cut pro, but stable from my two days of uses. maybe its your computer?

ITASOR
Oct 30, 2007, 06:32 PM
It seems as if Apple is now only in it for the money. I remember the feeling I used to get from them. I remember the quality they used to retain. I hope Apple doesn't drift from their cultural roots. The install DVD is fine, it's the OS itself that is the problem. I don't know if it is the fairly new INTEL architecture, but I never had these many crashes with PPC. Most people are too excited about all the new shiny features that they neglect the fact that Mac OSX is nowhere near as stable as it used to be. You can only expect that from a new architecture that needs to be recoded completely as well as operate instructions entirely differently. I am sure over time that OSX for Intel will become more stable, but for the time being this is the TRUTH. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not.



http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/3365/picture1gt6.th.png (http://img512.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture1gt6.png)

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/8721/picture2fj3.th.png (http://img513.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture2fj3.png)

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/9054/picture3tj9.th.png (http://img514.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture3tj9.png)

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/7712/picture4ic8.th.png (http://img516.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture4ic8.png)

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/2076/picture5ng3.th.png (http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture5ng3.png)

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/8823/picture6dm9.th.png (http://img153.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture6dm9.png)

Clean install or upgrade? Upgrade installs suck, so if you did one, go back and do a clean install.

iQuit
Oct 30, 2007, 06:33 PM
Obviously you don't know about the counterculture of Apple and how they originally started. When Steve Jobs was starting out he wanted to create a new consciousness and change the way people think about things. Apple did this. Just think how many ways you express yourself through your computer. The Apple logo symbolized culture and they brought this into their products. As the days go by it feels like they are drifting from their original goal and aiming for the goal every other company sets out for. Apple was started to rebel from the other companies, to think different. Their commercials are starting to have less meaning as well as their products.

Honestly, most people aren't experiencing crashes from what I have seen. Of course Apple is in it for the money, why else would they be? I can only acknowledge the reality that I see and I see a fairly stable OS so far.

flopticalcube
Oct 30, 2007, 06:39 PM
Obviously you don't know about the counterculture of Apple and how they originally started. When Steve Jobs was starting out he wanted to create a new consciousness and change the way people think about things. Apple did this. Just think how many ways you express yourself through your computer. The Apple logo symbolized culture and they brought this into their products. As the days go by it feels like they are drifting from their original goal and aiming for the goal every other company sets out for. Apple was started to rebel from the other companies, to think different. Their commercials are starting to have less meaning as well as their products.

Wow! You sure bought into their marketing. :)

iQuit
Oct 30, 2007, 06:44 PM
It wasn't marketing. Do your research. ie; Read some books on how the computer was made & read some books on the history of Apple and Steve Jobs. All you new Mac people are really misinformed. Any die hard Mac fan knows.

Wow! You sure bought into their marketing. :)

nvbrit
Oct 30, 2007, 06:44 PM
Does anyone know, if Leopard can be installed on an external USB drive, so I can test it out without getting rid of Tiger on my main drive right away?

if you have the required free space

Free space isn't an issue, but I have heard conflicting reports that you can only boot an OS on an external firewire drive not a USB drive, can anyone confirm this?

flopticalcube
Oct 30, 2007, 06:45 PM
It wasn't marketing. Do your research. ie; Read some books on how the computer was made & read some books on the history of Apple and Steve Jobs. All you new Mac people are really misinformed. Any die hard Mac fan knows.

Been using Apples since 1979. Never saw anything other than another capitalistic enterprise (but with better products). Don't believe everything you read.

iQuit
Oct 30, 2007, 06:46 PM
This is true. As there is no 9GB USB drive available.
Free space isn't an issue, but I have heard conflicting reports that you can only boot an OS on an external firewire drive not a USB drive, can anyone confirm this?

iQuit
Oct 30, 2007, 06:48 PM
Don't believe everything you see.

Been using Apples since 1979. Never saw anything other than another capitalistic enterprise (but with better products). Don't believe everything you read.

flopticalcube
Oct 30, 2007, 06:48 PM
Free space isn't an issue, but I have heard conflicting reports that you can only boot an OS on an external firewire drive not a USB drive, can anyone confirm this?

This is true. As there is no 9GB USB drive available.

Any Intel Mac can boot off of USB. I can off my 500GB USB MyBook.

nvbrit
Oct 30, 2007, 06:49 PM
Free space isn't an issue, but I have heard conflicting reports that you can only boot an OS on an external firewire drive not a USB drive, can anyone confirm this?

This is true. As there is no 9GB USB drive available.

uhm, why would the drive need to be 9gb?

nvbrit
Oct 30, 2007, 06:50 PM
Any Intel Mac can boot off of USB. I can off my 500GB USB MyBook.

Excellent, just what I needed to know! Thanks

iQuit
Oct 30, 2007, 06:51 PM
I thought he was talking about a USB FLASH Drive. Not a USB HardDrive.

Any Intel Mac can boot off of USB. I can off my 500GB USB MyBook.

nvbrit
Oct 30, 2007, 06:54 PM
Any Intel Mac can boot off of USB. I can off my 500GB USB MyBook.

I thought he was talking about a USB FLASH Drive. Not a USB HardDrive.

USB flash drive?! NOOO! that would be silly!




edit: awwww look, I just became a 'regular' .. I need to sit for a moment and appreciate the moment

Zadillo
Oct 30, 2007, 07:00 PM
Obviously you don't know about the counterculture of Apple and how they originally started. When Steve Jobs was starting out he wanted to create a new consciousness and change the way people think about things. Apple did this. Just think how many ways you express yourself through your computer. The Apple logo symbolized culture and they brought this into their products. As the days go by it feels like they are drifting from their original goal and aiming for the goal every other company sets out for. Apple was started to rebel from the other companies, to think different. Their commercials are starting to have less meaning as well as their products.

You've got to be kidding. Apple was started to make money selling their original Apple I computer kits.

You are ascribing pretty out there motivations to them.

Jobs certainly has wanted to change the way people use computers though, and the notion that they are not still doing that is laughable; the iPhone and its multitouch UI alone demonstrates that.

-Zadillo

iQuit
Oct 30, 2007, 07:19 PM
Look at there current commercials and look at their think different commercials. After viewing them, argue with me that Apple hasen't changed the way they view computers. Apple hasn't always been about changing computers. It was changing the way people think and changing they way they USE the computer. As the iPhone demonstrates. I really am not good at stooping down to narrow minded people. I'm an artist, I tend to think about things differently.


You've got to be kidding. Apple was started to make money selling their original Apple I computer kits.

You are ascribing pretty out there motivations to them.

Jobs certainly has wanted to change the way people use computers though, and the notion that they are not still doing that is laughable; the iPhone and its multitouch UI alone demonstrates that.

-Zadillo

Cloudane
Oct 30, 2007, 07:21 PM
Couple of points....

It seems as if Apple is now only in it for the money.

No kidding. It's a business. They've always been in it for the money... if you thought they were in it for the good of mankind, you've fallen for their marketing quite nicely :D

I remember the feeling I used to get from them. I remember the quality they used to retain.

I get that feeling now. I'm a sucker for that.

As for quality, first off this is a .0 release. You should *always* expect bugs in a .0 release (software or hardware), especially with Apple. No matter how much quality control they do, it happens.

Secondly, Apple has a long history of imperfect hardware, as has been pointed out to me here numerous times.

Thirdly, I actually don't think quality overall is dropping. Yes there are examples of it for such as the cheaper screens in the 20" iMac, but overall no. But if you read a forum such at this one, you rarely ever hear anything but negative comments (especially if you're looking for them), which gives one a bit of a negative impression/attitude.

Not attacking, just a couple of thoughts.

gwangung
Oct 30, 2007, 07:23 PM
Don't believe everything you see.

Do as I say, not as I do, eh?:D

jhipolito
Oct 30, 2007, 09:34 PM
It seems as if Apple is now only in it for the money. I remember the feeling I used to get from them. I remember the quality they used to retain. I hope Apple doesn't drift from their cultural roots. The install DVD is fine, it's the OS itself that is the problem. I don't know if it is the fairly new INTEL architecture, but I never had these many crashes with PPC. Most people are too excited about all the new shiny features that they neglect the fact that Mac OSX is nowhere near as stable as it used to be. You can only expect that from a new architecture that needs to be recoded completely as well as operate instructions entirely differently. I am sure over time that OSX for Intel will become more stable, but for the time being this is the TRUTH. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not.



http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/3365/picture1gt6.th.png (http://img512.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture1gt6.png)

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/8721/picture2fj3.th.png (http://img513.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture2fj3.png)

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/9054/picture3tj9.th.png (http://img514.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture3tj9.png)

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/7712/picture4ic8.th.png (http://img516.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture4ic8.png)

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/2076/picture5ng3.th.png (http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture5ng3.png)

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/8823/picture6dm9.th.png (http://img153.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture6dm9.png)

Is Onyx now compatible with Leopard? I think that if you have some sort of OS program that isn't (yet) compatible, it may be causing your problems? Just a hunch..

Best of luck..
Jim

PS - Mine is running GREAT.. almost too good! :P

Zadillo
Oct 30, 2007, 10:36 PM
Look at there current commercials and look at their think different commercials. After viewing them, argue with me that Apple hasen't changed the way they view computers. Apple hasn't always been about changing computers. It was changing the way people think and changing they way they USE the computer. As the iPhone demonstrates. I really am not good at stooping down to narrow minded people. I'm an artist, I tend to think about things differently.

I'm sorry, but I don't see a change in how Apple views computers from the "Think Different" ad campaign era to today.

Think Different was a branding campaign; as effective as it was, it didn't really say anything about how they viewed computers.

Frankly I'd say the iPhone ads are perhaps some of the most direct and clear ads Apple has ever done. They're some of the first I think I've ever seen from Apple that actually SHOW the interface and interaction with the device and how different it is.

Think about the sorts of computer ads Apple ran back then; if you asked me how Apple viewed computers during that time period, the iMac commercials, etc. from the time period would make me argue that Apple viewed them as appliances and fashion statements (most of the early iMac advertising was pretty much entirely focused on the chassis design).

Are you calling me narrow minded? And what does your being an artist have to do with anything?

And seriously, what point are you trying to make? You seem to be agreeing that the iPhone does demonstrate that Apple is in fact still changing the way people think about computers AND how they use them (because the iPhone in fact is a new kind of device, and people do interact with it in different ways from a typical computer or the typical previous PDA).

I mean, the iPhone and the bigger picture for what it represents for what Apple is working on in the future demonstrates that Apple is continuing to stretch boundaries.

The "Think Different" ad campaign was great to establish the direction Apple was going in, but the iPhone is the culmination of it.

It's one thing to run ads saying "Think Different". It's another to release a product like the iPhone that shows you actually are - and the iPhone is a uniquely Apple product. Microsoft and Palm have been trying for years to push things forward in the mobile space, but they have been churning out the same fundamental UI concepts this entire time (and Palm of course has completely stagnated, while Microsoft hasn't made a significant enhancement to Windows Mobile in years either). It's no surprise that the most excitement right now in the Windows Mobile space is the various plug-ins and front-ends that HTC has been doing.

Also, I can't let this go; Apple hasn't always been about changing computers? Seriously? I mean, I would strongly argue that this was exactly what the Mac was.

I don't think these are mutually exclusive concepts though. In changing computers themselves (the Mac compared to the previous Apple II and IBM PC's), Apple also completely changed how people thought about computers and used them as well.

If you do one, you inherently do the other do, and I think Apple has always and still does care about that entire chain.

The big thing is that the iPhone and iPod Touch are the representations that Apple is taking a more radical change than they have even in the past in terms of what a "computer" really is and how people relate to it. And they're doing it in a way that previous phones, PDA's, UMPC's, Tablet PC's, etc. have not.

-Zadillo

HLdan
Oct 31, 2007, 12:46 AM
It seems as if Apple is now only in it for the money. I remember the feeling I used to get from them. I remember the quality they used to retain. I hope Apple doesn't drift from their cultural roots. The install DVD is fine, it's the OS itself that is the problem. I don't know if it is the fairly new INTEL architecture, but I never had these many crashes with PPC. Most people are too excited about all the new shiny features that they neglect the fact that Mac OSX is nowhere near as stable as it used to be. You can only expect that from a new architecture that needs to be recoded completely as well as operate instructions entirely differently. I am sure over time that OSX for Intel will become more stable, but for the time being this is the TRUTH. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not.




I have to disagree wholeheartedly with you. Apple pays more attention to customer satisfaction than what's to be expected from a big company like them. I can get them on the phone for service within seconds after I call and they make products people really like and they don't try and make their products work like Windows which makes them still "Think Different".

As far as Leopard crashing, maybe you should take advantage of Stacks rather than have a messy desktop. :D
Jokes aside, I did a full erase, reformat and install of Leopard on my new iMac. I have had zero issues and I have installed many 3rd party apps and all of Apple's apps and nothing has crashed or freezed or beachballed once. My EYETV 2.5 software (which is expected to crash at times) has worked flawlessly in Leopard.
I don't install those stupid haxies that force the UI to change and maybe that causes some issues. Some developers haven't gotten completely on the Leopard board yet but maybe you should clean your system out and don't do Archive and Install or upgrade and don't install apps that haven't been supported for Leopard. Good luck.

Di9it8
Oct 31, 2007, 08:13 AM
Free space isn't an issue, but I have heard conflicting reports that you can only boot an OS on an external firewire drive not a USB drive, can anyone confirm this?

I thought that you could only boot from a Firewire or eSata drive, as the USB elements had to load before booting, am I incorrect?

iQuit
Oct 31, 2007, 11:42 AM
Obviously if you get that "feeling" and are purchasing their products, as well as on these forums. You have fallen for their "marketing" as well. I am not talking about the current product lineup or the current build of OSX. I am talking about the over-all scheme of things. The big boys at Apple have had a change of heart. Their mentality has changed. Mac is no longer the "computer for everyone" just because everyone would not be able to pick one up and use one. Only Mac users can easily adapt to new Apple products. I'm just mainly upset with some of the decisions they have been making. It's not like their previous history. Thats all.



Couple of points....



No kidding. It's a business. They've always been in it for the money... if you thought they were in it for the good of mankind, you've fallen for their marketing quite nicely :D



I get that feeling now. I'm a sucker for that.

As for quality, first off this is a .0 release. You should *always* expect bugs in a .0 release (software or hardware), especially with Apple. No matter how much quality control they do, it happens.

Secondly, Apple has a long history of imperfect hardware, as has been pointed out to me here numerous times.

Thirdly, I actually don't think quality overall is dropping. Yes there are examples of it for such as the cheaper screens in the 20" iMac, but overall no. But if you read a forum such at this one, you rarely ever hear anything but negative comments (especially if you're looking for them), which gives one a bit of a negative impression/attitude.

Not attacking, just a couple of thoughts.

iQuit
Oct 31, 2007, 11:44 AM
Thanks for the information. But this is exactly what I am talking about on Apple's behalf. In the past you would be able to actually use a feature instead of ignore it. Such as the upgrade feature, why is a feature they implement going to make my computer crash?


I have to disagree wholeheartedly with you. Apple pays more attention to customer satisfaction than what's to be expected from a big company like them. I can get them on the phone for service within seconds after I call and they make products people really like and they don't try and make their products work like Windows which makes them still "Think Different".

As far as Leopard crashing, maybe you should take advantage of Stacks rather than have a messy desktop. :D
Jokes aside, I did a full erase, reformat and install of Leopard on my new iMac. I have had zero issues and I have installed many 3rd party apps and all of Apple's apps and nothing has crashed or freezed or beachballed once. My EYETV 2.5 software (which is expected to crash at times) has worked flawlessly in Leopard.
I don't install those stupid haxies that force the UI to change and maybe that causes some issues. Some developers haven't gotten completely on the Leopard board yet but maybe you should clean your system out and don't do Archive and Install or upgrade and don't install apps that haven't been supported for Leopard. Good luck.

Zadillo
Oct 31, 2007, 12:34 PM
Obviously if you get that "feeling" and are purchasing their products, as well as on these forums. You have fallen for their "marketing" as well. I am not talking about the current product lineup or the current build of OSX. I am talking about the over-all scheme of things. The big boys at Apple have had a change of heart. Their mentality has changed. Mac is no longer the "computer for everyone" just because everyone would not be able to pick one up and use one. Only Mac users can easily adapt to new Apple products. I'm just mainly upset with some of the decisions they have been making. It's not like their previous history. Thats all.

I already have to disagree with this actually.

I would say that Apple is doing a better job than ever of making Macs that non-Mac users can adopt to; I spent a lot of time on the notebookreview.com forums, and the Apple forums there especially are full of PC users who have made the switch to the Mac. Time and time again, one of the big things you hear about is how pleasant it has been for them to transition to the Mac, in a way that the Classic Mac OS never presented.

-Zadillo

HLdan
Oct 31, 2007, 01:20 PM
Thanks for the information. But this is exactly what I am talking about on Apple's behalf. In the past you would be able to actually use a feature instead of ignore it. Such as the upgrade feature, why is a feature they implement going to make my computer crash?

Hi, don't misunderstand what was saying, yes an erase, reformat and install is always going to be key to the best computing experience when doing a major upgrade. You can do a very successful upgrade but in order for it to be successful you can't just leave all of your 3rd party apps and downloaded hidden files in place and just hit the upgrade button. The upgrade option is intended for when you have done a clean install of the old OS and then pop in the DVD of the new OS and then hit upgrade and all should be well.

You have to get this thing about, "Apple has turned for the worst" attitude out of your thinking. Is it all about Apple? What about Sony, Microsoft, Panasonic, Bose, TIVO, HP and the rest? These companies are just as big of players in the business of electronics as Apple and yet so many people only expect Apple to be perfect and accept the other companies as being acceptable when there products and service are subpar.

Pick up the phone, call Apple and get the issues straightened out. Their phone customer service is the best and fast.

P.S. Another poster mentioned that you just can't sit down to an Apple computer as new user and run it easily? Windows has a much bigger learning curve for someone that's never used a computer.

boster
Nov 1, 2007, 02:03 PM
It seems that a lot of folks are either totally for, or totally against the UI changes in Leopard. I for one welcome the change. As with anything in life, looking at the same old screen gets pretty dull over time (no matter how cool it looks today).

As for functionality, I think your milage may vary. I happen to love Stacks, Spaces, and Quicklook. Coverflow is nice in certain situations, but I don't think it makes a good default view (personal opinion).

There are things in Leopard to like and things to dislike. Hopefully the things that the majority of users dislike will be modified to be more flexible. If Apple never tried new things the OS would still look like with was from the 80's. Like it or not, we are the beta testers for these new features.

-J

DMann
Nov 1, 2007, 02:37 PM
It seems that a lot of folks are either totally for, or totally against the UI changes in Leopard. I for one welcome the change. As with anything in life, looking at the same old screen gets pretty dull over time (no matter how cool it looks today).

As for functionality, I think your milage may vary. I happen to love Stacks, Spaces, and Quicklook. Coverflow is nice in certain situations, but I don't think it makes a good default view (personal opinion).

There are things in Leopard to like and things to dislike. Hopefully the things that the majority of users dislike will be modified to be more flexible. If Apple never tried new things the OS would still look like with was from the 80's. Like it or not, we are the beta testers for these new features.

-J

Stacks, Spaces, and Quicklook are all great. One hopes that future updates will give us the ability to modify appearances furhter; alter the translucence of the Menu Bar, resize fonts and icons on the side bar, toggle between Stacks behavior and hierarchy of folder contents, make further adjustments to the dock, etc. Overall, this UI is slick, elegant, and more vivid than that of it's predecessors.

johnmcboston
Nov 2, 2007, 07:33 AM
I'd like to start off saying that the review article was outstanding. Nice to see an in-depth piece by someone who knows something about OSs. Never mind someone who takes time to justify why he doesn't like some feature, or thinks it doesn't work as well as it should... I spent as much time reading some of his background pieces as I did the main review.

Last night I spent some time playing with Leopard at the Apple store, and have to say I agree with a lot of his points. For instance, all the folders being generic blue with a darker blue symbol in them. Unless you're viewing large icons, I had a real time telling what the symbol on the blue folder was. That only saving grace was when I dragged (say) the music folder to the left menu, it went back to the original music-note icon, rather than staying a blue folder.

The dock was OK. the 3D vs flat was a big don't care. A problem in the store - sometimes the reflection of the icon was so bright as to occlude the blue 'active' dot, so half the time I couldn't tell if an app was running. Per of the problem with the space below the icons being used for two purposes (reflection and active app indication)

My biggest disappointment was stacks. I keep a LOT of folders in the rock, and being able to right-click and see a standard finder window is priceless to me. The problem with both the 'curve stack' and the grid presentation - the background presented is translucent. I tried it with the standard 'starry' Leopard background, with Finder windows open, and with a browser window open. Ever time I opened a stack, I couldn't read the file names because the background Mac items (desktop, finder, browser) showed through the stack translucent background.

Even if it wasn't for the translucent problem, the presentation is a UI problem. If you seen an alphabetical list, it's easy to find an item. When you present alphabetical things in a grid, you visually lost the alphabet, and it takes more time to try and find an icon in the grid list. You can configure stacks to be automatic, or to 'always display grid' -I wish 'display finder style' would have also been an option. For me, this really slows down my work flow.

But aside form the dock problems, everything else was either just different or not bad. I could see some instances where cover flow in finder would be handy. Quickview is quicker to see contents that waiting for an app to open. Faster App launch is always nice...

Overall a decent upgrade. The dock problems won't stop me form buying, but look forward to some tweaks that 10.5.1 might provide...

Doctor Q
Nov 2, 2007, 09:27 AM
Even if it wasn't for the translucent problem, the presentation is a UI problem. If you seen an alphabetical list, it's easy to find an item. When you present alphabetical things in a grid, you visually lost the alphabet, and it takes more time to try and find an icon in the grid list. You can configure stacks to be automatic, or to 'always display grid' -I wish 'display finder style' would have also been an option. For me, this really slows down my work flow.In my "Applications" stack, I get used to looking for certain apps in certain positions in the grid. As long as the list is static, I'm OK. But when I add a new app, I'm confused for a while because apps that used to be in the rightmost column are now at the left of the next row. The problem is temporary, of course.

johnmcboston
Nov 2, 2007, 12:22 PM
In my "Applications" stack, I get used to looking for certain apps in certain positions in the grid. As long as the list is static, I'm OK. But when I add a new app, I'm confused for a while because apps that used to be in the rightmost column are now at the left of the next row. The problem is temporary, of course.

A definite problem. Something I didn't try - once the grid is up, can you type a letter and have the focus shift to the first app with that letter? (like you can in a finder window)?

DMann
Nov 2, 2007, 12:28 PM
A definite problem. Something I didn't try - once the grid is up, can you type a letter and have the focus shift to the first app with that letter? (like you can in a finder window)?

Yes, this works with both stacks and the grid.

wms121
Nov 2, 2007, 12:29 PM
...John might have mentioned something, for instance at least on MacOSX Server:

http://www-01.ibm.com/cgi-bin/common/ssi/ssialias?infotype=an&subtype=ca&htmlfid=897/ENUS207-157&appname=usn
http://symphony.lotus.com/software/lotus/symphony/supportMessage.jspa?messageID=5156&tstart=0

Since he seems to "love his old G5's".

<--Old PPC fan.

WW

QuarterSwede
Nov 2, 2007, 12:31 PM
I too think that was an outstanding article. Heck, it took me a few days to read it all actually. Because of it, I now have a better understanding of how Leopard works.

DMann
Nov 2, 2007, 12:34 PM
...John might have mentioned something, for instance at least on MacOSX Server:

http://www-01.ibm.com/cgi-bin/common/ssi/ssialias?infotype=an&subtype=ca&htmlfid=897/ENUS207-157&appname=usn

Since he seems to "love his old G5's".

<--Old PPC fan.

WW

It wouldn't take too much effort to port, however, as much of a fan I am of PPC and POWER6, it would take several more fans to keep it cool enough to operate in a desktop machine.

prostuff1
Nov 2, 2007, 12:42 PM
I have not used leopard but will probably be getting it soon. I can't risk destroying all my school work right now. I can make a backup and i always do, but i want to make sure that i don't frack something up while in the middle of the quarter.

I did read through the arstechnica (http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/mac-os-x-10-5.ars/1) article and I found it extremely interesting. I think it is one of the better written articles I have read. There are a few things that annoy me and a few that I like in leopard.

The good but don't care:
1. The new look. I like that it is at least consistent. I am sure that i can get use to it.
2. Spaces i don't really care about. Maybe i will like and use it maybe not. I have used a few Virtual desktop apps and I could never get use to using them.

The Good:
1. Some of the more geeky stuff like DTrace, all 64-Bit, FSEvents, LLVM, etc.
2. Spotlight sounds much improved, which is nice. I might actually use it on a regular basis. It will probably not replace Quicksilver, but we will see.
3. Core Animations sounds like something that a lot of developers will start to use. Hopefully it does not get abused
4. Quartz GL sounds really cool, now it just needs to be fully implemented. The same goes for resolution independence.
5. Finder... there are some good and REALLY bad things about it.
6. Time Machine looks like it will be useful and i will probably b using it. I will probably go buy another drive so I can do a SuperDuper clone and one for Time Machine.
7. All the new stuff in System preferences looks good (Sharing looks to be improved, along with the network prefs pane).

The Bad:
1. I am not a huge fan of the new folders. We will see how easy they are to recognize at a glance.
2. The way the settings for folders now are global. There is a really good example on the site about it. Having to go in an set the damn thing manually is going to be a real pain in the arse.
3. The fact that when folders are in the dock they show the contents of the folders is a REAL annoyance. All I want to see is that damn folder i put in the dock, not a representation of what is in it. I hope to good that there is a way to turn that off as it will be one of the first things i do.

So like I said at the beginning, I have not actually used leopard but from my reading of the article it looks to be a pretty good update. I think the biggest annoyance for me is actually going to be the dock. It may look pretty but it seems they have actually taken some steps backwards as far as functionality/ease-of-use.

koobcamuk
Nov 2, 2007, 12:52 PM
I thought that you could only boot from a Firewire or eSata drive, as the USB elements had to load before booting, am I incorrect?

PPC - Firewire
Intel - USB and Firewire