Black Peter?

[ghall]

So, at school today we had a discussion about the Dutch charachter of Black Peter. Some Dutch educators came to our school to learn more about it, and as a farewell thing they did a presentation on the Dutch version of Christmas. Some students and staff found offense in the Black Peter charachter, and have been making a big fuss about it.

I myself found it rather tasteless, but because I'm white, I don't really understand how someone was offended by this. Especially since it's another culture. I'm sure other cultures find some US customs offensive.

Anyway, what do you all think?

For those of you who don't know the history of Black Peter, read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_peter).

[l33r0y]

So, at school today we had a discussion about the Dutch charachter of Black Peter. Some Dutch educators came to our school to learn more about it, and as a farewell thing they did a presentation on the Dutch version of Christmas. Some students and staff found offense in the Black Peter charachter, and have been making a big fuss about it.

I myself found it rather tasteless, but because I'm white, I don't really understand how someone was offended by this. Especially since it's another culture. I'm sure other cultures find some US customs offensive.

Anyway, what do you all think?

For those of you who don't know the history of Black Peter, read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_peter).

The world has gone PC mad...

[ghall]

Now the discussion is moving to not allowing the Dutch to come back.

What do you all think about that.

Can we get a Dutch perspective, or someone more versed in Dutch culture, to comment on this topic?

[Blue Velvet]

Zwarte Piet... lived in Holland for five years when I was younger and there's no doubt that in the 70s, Zwarte Piet was used to scare kids as mentioned in Wikipedia, including my little sister.

Not allowing the Dutch educators to return is ridiculous; examining the history, context and customs in the light of today's views on the inherent racism within many legends and customs is not.

[leekohler]

Umm...for a second when I saw the thread title, I thought it might be a new adult film. :)

[xUKHCx]

Umm...for a second when I saw the thread title, I thought it might be a new adult film. :)

I thought it was something about Blue Peter (http://www.bbc.co.uk/cbbc/bluepeter/)

[Markleshark]

I thought it was something about Blue Peter (http://www.bbc.co.uk/cbbc/bluepeter/)

Me too.

:rolleyes:

[miloblithe]

Looks like racism that the Dutch would be well advised to discontinue.

[mactastic]

Shoot, and I was gettin' ready to have a discussion on the finer points of Grateful Dead songs...

[takao]

well you can always switch over to the austrian version of saint nicholas companion with all it's consequences
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Perchten1.jpg
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Hochalmpass_2003_badhofgastein.JPG
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:2%2852%29.jpg

side note: in rural tyrol it's still common around the days before the 6. that the young guys from the village go through the village/town etc. looking for trouble as a group (during the night mostly including heavy drinking etc. so i don't want to be caught by them alone)
and they also carry lots of chains rattling etc.

those _guys_ were scary as a kid

[Ugg]

Now the discussion is moving to not allowing the Dutch to come back.

What do you all think about that.


It's stupid.

Fairy tales more often invoke a white person as the evil one. Why should the occasional fairy tale that uses a black person as the evil one be considered racist? If the vast majority of fairy tales depicted blacks as evil, then yes, there would be a problem IMO.

Also, if The Netherlands had a long history of racism, it might be reason to take a stand, however, until recently, The Netherlands have been a bastion of liberals.

[AP_piano295]

Would people be upsett if Piete was a white slave? (or servant which seems to be Piete's major role)

[Markleshark]

Would people be upsett if Piete was a white slave? (or servant which seems to be Piete's major role)

Nope, but that is purely down to white people. We seem to have a strange mentality when it comes to racism towards us that we should just get on with it, and somehow it's not offensive when someone calls me 'White Boy'.

[bartelby]

Nope, but that is purely down to white people. We seem to have a strange mentality when it comes to racism towards us that we should just get on with it, and somehow it's not offensive when someone calls me 'White Boy'.

But there's not really been hundreds of years of oppression in the history of white people.

[calculus]

I thought it was something about Blue Peter (http://www.bbc.co.uk/cbbc/bluepeter/)

Me too.

:rolleyes:

I was expecting another cat naming/dead dog/fake competition winner scandal...

[skunk]

somehow it's not offensive when someone calls me 'White Boy'.Well. it's hardly got the connotations of being owned, stolen, flogged and abused that being called "Sambo" has, you must admit.

[Markleshark]

But there's not really been hundreds of years of oppression in the history of white people.

So if there is no history of it, its ok? So in theory, its ok for me to stab someone I don't know, or have never met before?

Well. it's hardly got the connotations of being owned, stolen, flogged and abused that being called "Sambo" has, you must admit.

Thats fair enough, doesn't make it any less offensive though.

[bartelby]

Well. it's hardly got the connotations of being owned, stolen, flogged and abused that being called "Sambo" has, you must admit.

That's what I was trying to say.

I need coffee...

[Markleshark]

That's what I was trying to say.

I need coffee...

:D.

It's ok, I'm going... There is a reason I stay out of this forum.

[skunk]

Thats fair enough, doesn't make it any less offensive though.Of course you are free to be offended by anything you want, but what do you find offensive about "White Boy"?

[Markleshark]

Of course you are free to be offended by anything you want, but what do you find offensive about "White Boy"?

The term it's self, and the fact that it is used as a derogatory term. I agree there is nothing in the word(s) themselves that could be deemed offensive, it is simply how they are used.

The point I was making though, is that racism against White people is no less wrong than racism against people of other races. Or at least, in my opinion it's not.

[solvs]

The point I was making though, is that racism against White people is no less wrong than racism against people of other races.

Are white people in your neighborhood oppressed?

[skunk]

Are white people in your neighborhood oppressed?Everybody's oppressed up north. ;)

[solvs]

Everybody's oppressed up north. ;)

Maybe he's a vampire. I hear vampire's are very oppressed in Transylvania. Stupid racist humans, always hating on the chiro-sapiens.

[takao]

i'm sure there is pretty of oppression of "white" people too .. even by other "whites" (like for example towards immigrants from eastern europe)

on the other side there are examples around where PC in that regard went horribly wrong if you think about it:

for example some sweets which in the past has been called "Negerküsse" ("küsse" = kisses . i htink you can figure out the rest ;) ) got renamed into "schokoladeküsse" (chocolate-kisses) to be political correct .. on the other side with this they eliminate positive connections to the word .. after all "Schokoküsse" are hugly popular and liked by nearly everyone (in austria they are called "Schwedenbomben" "sweden bombs" anyway ...)

why eliminate positive things ?

[solvs]

for example some sweets which in the past has been called "Negerküsse" ("küsse" = kisses . i htink you can figure out the rest ;) )

Doesn't that mean "black kisses"?

[takao]

Doesn't that mean "black kisses"?

more like "negro" but it has been it also gets used negativly by some and normal by others (like my grandmother who learned that as political correct word instead of "black" which was considered an insult)

[Stampyhead]

Now the discussion is moving to not allowing the Dutch to come back.

What do you all think about that.

Can we get a Dutch perspective, or someone more versed in Dutch culture, to comment on this topic?

How about a common sense perspective? Discriminating against someone based on their cultural beliefs (i.e. not allowing the Dutch people to return to your school simply because you don't like their Christmas traditions) is just as bad as discriminating against someone based on the color of their skin. Tell your friends to get over themselves and learn to live and let live.

Edit: Author David Sedaris takes a more light-hearted look at the Dutch Christmas traditions (http://people.cornell.edu/pages/bs16/Christmas/6_to_8_black_men.txt)