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MacRumors
Oct 29, 2007, 05:59 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Apple and T-Mobile announced rate plans (http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2007/10/29iphone.html) for the iPhone in Germany today.


http://images.macrumors.com/article/2007/10/29/tmobilerates_400.jpg


The plans start at 49 euro/month and include unlimited data plans, Visual Voicemail and access to T-Mobile's over 8,000 W-Fi Hotspots in Germany.
"We're thrilled to be partnering with T-Mobile and can't wait to start selling the iPhone in Germany in just a few short weeks," said Philip Schiller, Apple's senior vice president of Worldwide Product Marketing. "Starting at just €49 per month, we think these three rate plans give customers the flexibility to experience all of iPhone’s revolutionary features at affordable and competitive prices."

The numbers correspond to an earlier leak (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/18/iphone-rate-plans-for-germany/) of the rate plans reported by MacNotes.de (http://www.macnotes.de/2007/10/18/iphone-bei-t-mobile-alle-tarifdetails/).

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/29/t-mobile-and-apple-announce-iphone-germany-rate-plans/)



plumbingandtech
Oct 29, 2007, 06:02 PM
I want some free hot spots.


:o

pit29
Oct 29, 2007, 06:03 PM
Actually, there will also be an activation fee of €25. And: they will limit traffic speed over edge to 64kb/s and 16kb/s for down- and upload, respectively, after you have downloaded 200mb (complete M), 1gb (L) or 5gb (XL) in any given month...


And: first :-)

EDITED: second, but close...

mkrishnan
Oct 29, 2007, 06:08 PM
And: they will limit traffic speed over edge to 64kb/s and 16kb/s for down- and upload, respectively, after you have downloaded 200mb (complete M), 1gb (L) or 5gb (XL) in any given month...

I didn't see this in the article... can you provide a confirming source?

naroola
Oct 29, 2007, 06:09 PM
5GB or even 1GB of data transfer at EDGE speeds??? Come on! On the other hand, 200MB is more believable.

unity
Oct 29, 2007, 06:10 PM
Damn, why are Euro plans so much? You would think with population density like there is the plans would be more affordable, even with free incoming.

Project
Oct 29, 2007, 06:11 PM
Ouch.

These are far worse than the UK plans. Far worse.

ABM
Oct 29, 2007, 06:13 PM
I didn't see this in the article... can you provide a confirming source?

http://www.t-mobile.de/iphone/tarife.jsp

1) Gilt nur für die Nutzung mit dem iPhone im nationalen T-Mobile Netz und an deutschen HotSpots der Telekom oder von T-Mobile (WLAN). Ab einem Datenvolumen von 200 MB
(Complete M), 1 GB (Complete L) oder 5 GB (Complete XL) pro Monat wird die Bandbreite im jeweiligen Monat auf max. 64 kbit/s (Download) und 16 kbit/s (Upload) beschränkt.

chr1s60
Oct 29, 2007, 06:14 PM
Wow, these prices seem pretty high compared to what it is in the US.

Nordichund
Oct 29, 2007, 06:15 PM
Personally I´d love an iPhone. However if it ever comes to Norway and has prices resembling anything like Germany I´ll happily stick with my current none iPhone. Those prices are insane. The phone isn´t even 3G. Apple in this instance is being VERY greedy.

mkrishnan
Oct 29, 2007, 06:21 PM
http://www.t-mobile.de/iphone/tarife.jsp

Thanks! :) Is this pro forma in Germany for other high-data phones... perhaps Blackberries or Treos or the Sidekick or something like that?

offwidafairies
Oct 29, 2007, 06:22 PM
i guess apple arent making as much revenue since dropping the price of the iphone. does apple get a percentage of the network price?

also... when is iPhone coming to australia. not that i REALLY care. im going to live in the USA in 2 months anyway. but i do feel like australia is left behind, kind of like an afterthought. and there are some big fanboys (and girls ;)) over here

Stella
Oct 29, 2007, 06:22 PM
Damn, why are Euro plans so much? You would think with population density like there is the plans would be more affordable, even with free incoming.

They aren't, normally... its Apple / TMobile 'special' iPhone tariffs.

BufferOverflow
Oct 29, 2007, 06:26 PM
Wow those prices are steep! On the 'L' tariff you get the same minutes and 50 less texts compared to the UK, and for approximately £14 more! :eek:

naroola
Oct 29, 2007, 06:33 PM
Wow, these prices seem pretty high compared to what it is in the US.

I disagree. These rates are good. Think about it... these include VAT which is 19%, and incoming calls and incoming SMSs from anywhere are free, on top of the free Wifi zones!

In the US, we pay through the nose for those for these services. Do the math... let's pick the middle plan at 69 Euros:

1. Remove the cost of wifi zones which in Germany equates to 30 Euros/month, i.e. 69 - 30 = 39 Euros.
2. Let's remove the cost of incoming calls and SMS messages, say another 15 Euros (pulled this out of the air, but to me it seems reasonable) i.e. 39 - 15 = 24 Euros.
3. Remove 19% VAT (cause in the US, the rate plans are advertised without taxes) i.e. 24 Euros * 0.81 = 19.4 Euros. This equates to roughly $25 per month.

Now in the US... $25/month for 200 minutes (incoming and outgoing), 150 SMSs (incoming and outgoing) and unlimited data is not good? iPhone data plan itself is $20/month! So really, $5 you are getting 200 mins of talk time and 150 SMSs.

I am sorry I disagree, but these rates are excellent!!!

Wow, these prices seem pretty high compared to what it is in the US.

I disagree. These rates are good. Think about it... these include VAT which is 19%, and incoming calls and incoming SMSs from anywhere are free, on top of the free Wifi zones!

In the US, we pay through the nose for those for these services. Do the math... let's pick the middle plan at 69 Euros:

1. Remove the cost of wifi zones which in Germany equates to 30 Euros/month, i.e. 69 - 30 = 39 Euros.
2. Let's remove the cost of incoming calls and SMS messages, say another 15 Euros (pulled this out of the air, but to me it seems reasonable) i.e. 39 - 15 = 24 Euros.
3. Remove 19% VAT (cause in the US, the rate plans are advertised without taxes) i.e. 24 Euros * 0.81 = 19.4 Euros. This equates to roughly $25 per month.

Now in the US... $25/month for 200 minutes (incoming and outgoing), 150 SMSs (incoming and outgoing) and unlimited data is not good? iPhone data plan itself is $20/month! So really, $5 you are getting 200 mins of talk time and 150 SMSs.

I am sorry I disagree, but these rates are excellent!!!

tbobmccoy
Oct 29, 2007, 06:34 PM
I'd almost feel sorry for your euro prices, except that we Americans have crappy healthcare and are involved in futile wars across the globe :rolleyes:

twoodcc
Oct 29, 2007, 06:38 PM
Wow, these prices seem pretty high compared to what it is in the US.

yeah they do. but at first i didn't notice that it included minutes also. but still, they are kinda high

Dreyfus
Oct 29, 2007, 06:49 PM
It is actually a mixed bag - and I think Apple's insisting on free unlimited data in each plan is to blame for these prices.

Data and WLAN access charges with T-Mobile are extremely expensive in Germany, no matter if ad hoc or with volume subscriptions. Apple forcing them to provide that "unlimited" caused skimping on included minutes and horrendous per minute rates when exceeding the allocation. 39 Cents per minute is a joke - you can get prepaid cards (no minimum, no fees) with charges as low as 14 Cents/min.

So - for people using data services a lot (and initiating only a few calls) it is a good deal, even a very good deal. EDGE coverage with T-Mobile is great, they have more hot spots than anybody else etc. For people reading one or two emails on the go per week - it is completely unsuitable. For most teens (tons of SMS and hours of talking, even when dialling the wrong number) - it will be financial suicide. So - bottom line, the plan is mainly favouring business users. These may have to wait weeks, months or years before network admins add support for the iPhone on the corporate network.

I think they miss out on a lot of potential buyers here - half the German population might be in Paris in early November :p

robogobo
Oct 29, 2007, 06:50 PM
All non-US mobile phone users should protest and demand better rates. It's really ridiculous how much more expensive it is here in Europe. It's not like this is new technology or anything. Rates are 3 to 4 times more expensive, and many places (like Switzerland) haven't even began to offer unlimited data. Data rates are through the roof.

Abstract
Oct 29, 2007, 06:52 PM
Those rates look dismal. For 50 Euro, you get 100 minutes and 40 SMS? That's nothing! You're essentially paying $40 for the data plan alone. That 100 minutes is nothing. 40 SMS isn't so hot, either.

The L plan looks more reasonable, but it's 70 Euro. That's $100 USD!! :eek:

Actually, there will also be an activation fee of €25. And: they will limit traffic speed over edge to 64kb/s and 16kb/s for down- and upload, respectively, after you have downloaded 200mb (complete M), 1gb (L) or 5gb (XL) in any given month...

That's poo. 64 kb/s would be unbearable.

voodoofish
Oct 29, 2007, 06:56 PM
2. Let's remove the cost of incoming calls and SMS messages, say another 15 Euros (pulled this out of the air, but to me it seems reasonable) i.e. 39 - 15 = 24 Euros.



FYI, in europe the reason incoming calls and texts are free is because whoever sent them pays money for them to be delivered, ie. the network operator makes money every time you receive a call or text message [edit for clarity - unlike the US where it is you who is receiving the call/text message who the network makes money off, it is the person who has sent the call/text message who the network makes the money off, since part of their phone bill gets paid to your network as an 'interconnect fee' or whatever they call it]. in the UK the network three even pays you to recieve calls/texts, as they are simply passing some of this money they make back onto you.

So, actually getting free incoming calls is *not* actually worth €15 a month, if anything it's worth a discount off your line rental since your carrier makes money off the caller every time someone calls you.


Also - do German's just never text each other?? or are those plans just *really* bad? In the UK you get 1,000 texts a month free if you top up £30 a month on pay as you go, yet some how users on the most expensive iphone plan in germany are expected to get by on 300?

joker0421
Oct 29, 2007, 07:00 PM
1. Remove the cost of wifi zones which in Germany equates to 30 Euros/month, i.e. 69 - 30 = 39 Euros.


The T-Mobile Hotspot Flat costs 14,95€, and many landline customers of T-Online already have this flatrate included with their DSL contract.

Besides that, I think that 99$ for 1GB Data Traffic, 200 minutes and 150 SMS is anything else than excellent. Compared to other german carriers, it's really a bad deal. And you can't get any flatrate for calls or SMS, not even with the biggest plan.

39 cent per minute is ridiculous, you can get it for 9,9 cent without signing any contract.

quigleybc
Oct 29, 2007, 07:00 PM
This is a theme.

Some Country gets the iPhone. Everyone's excited.

Then they release the prices. Everyone's Shocked.

then some token Canadian comes on here and talks about 'well at least you have the iPhone!".......oh wait that's me....


ya,

i'm jealous...

PabloGS
Oct 29, 2007, 07:03 PM
1. Remove the cost of wifi zones which in Germany equates to 30 Euros/month, i.e. 69 - 30 = 39 Euros.
2. Let's remove the cost of incoming calls and SMS messages, say another 15 Euros (pulled this out of the air, but to me it seems reasonable) i.e. 39 - 15 = 24 Euros.
3. Remove 19% VAT (cause in the US, the rate plans are advertised without taxes) i.e. 24 Euros * 0.81 = 19.4 Euros. This equates to roughly $25 per month.


No they are not... I live here in Germany and you can easily get prepaid phone cards for 5 to 9¢/min to any network, telephony flat-rates are 15€/month.

Calling a cellphone is roughly 9¢/min from a landline.

Now T-Mobiles WiFi Zones Flat is roughly 10€/month extra, not 30€/month!!!

There are also many UMTS data-plans available, 10€/month gets you 200MB worth of traffic (I have the O2 Internet Pack M), and honestly, I surf the net via UMTS and my MacBook a lot. Never made it to the 200MB limit!
Or get a time tariff for usually 3¢ to 9¢.

10€ for 100 mins + 4€ for 40 SMS + Wifi: 10€ + Dataplan: 10€ = 34€
If you take these numbers into account, I'd say 40€ is just about right, since the iPhone is a subsidized phone, but... Dude... 49€ is a rip-off.

manu chao
Oct 29, 2007, 07:13 PM
I disagree. These rates are good. Think about it... these include VAT which is 19%, and incoming calls and incoming SMSs from anywhere are free, on top of the free Wifi zones!

In the US, we pay through the nose for those for these services. Do the math... let's pick the middle plan at 69 Euros:

1. Remove the cost of wifi zones which in Germany equates to 30 Euros/month, i.e. 69 - 30 = 39 Euros.
2. Let's remove the cost of incoming calls and SMS messages, say another 15 Euros (pulled this out of the air, but to me it seems reasonable) i.e. 39 - 15 = 24 Euros.
3. Remove 19% VAT (cause in the US, the rate plans are advertised without taxes) i.e. 24 Euros * 0.81 = 19.4 Euros. This equates to roughly $25 per month.

Now in the US... $25/month for 200 minutes (incoming and outgoing), 150 SMSs (incoming and outgoing) and unlimited data is not good? iPhone data plan itself is $20/month! So really, $5 you are getting 200 mins of talk time and 150 SMSs.

Let's do the math again. From the consumer side, pre-tax prices are irrelevant, your bank account only sees the after-tax cost (from a company point of view, it is the other way around). Typical sales tax in the U.S., according to Wikipedia, is 8.5%. That will make the $60 plan cost you $65, that includes 450 min. Assuming half of them incoming minutes that roughly compares to the Complete L plan with 200 min for outgoing calls in Germany, which is 69 Euro. Taking the PPP implied by the Big Mac Index of 1.1 this translates into $76.

Tafkas
Oct 29, 2007, 07:18 PM
The iPhone has now Time Machine™. With the iPhone in Germany you are able to talk at rates we had here about 5-6 years ago. That is awesome!!!

Twinkie
Oct 29, 2007, 07:29 PM
The iPhone has now Time Machine™. With the iPhone in Germany you are able to talk at rates we had here about 5-6 years ago. That is awesome!!!
That is pretty awesome.

After reading many of the posts, one would think that it took you back 70 years, and forced everyone to have an iPhone.

Glenny2lappies
Oct 29, 2007, 07:40 PM
It'll be interesting to see how many people buy the phones and just unlock them.

I'm utterly damned if I'm paying these rates - it doesn't matter which ones you pick; US, UK, DE, they all suck like a Dyson. But unlike a Dyson, they keep on sucking for a year or more.

Unlocking's worth risking an iBrick to have a decent iPod, browser and phone but with a low-cost SIM card.

Otherwise simply wait for iPhone 2.0 -- February? With 3G, new OS and better applications.

uaaerospace
Oct 29, 2007, 07:41 PM
FYI, in europe the reason incoming calls and texts are free is because whoever sent them pays money for them to be delivered, ie. the network operator makes money every time you receive a call or text message [edit for clarity - unlike the US where it is you who is receiving the call/text message who the network makes money off, it is the person who has sent the call/text message who the network makes the money off, since part of their phone bill gets paid to your network as an 'interconnect fee' or whatever they call it]. in the UK the network three even pays you to recieve calls/texts, as they are simply passing some of this money they make back onto you.

So, actually getting free incoming calls is *not* actually worth €15 a month, if anything it's worth a discount off your line rental since your carrier makes money off the caller every time someone calls you.

Actually, in the US, both the person who sends the message and the one who receives the message pays. Thus each text message sent is in a sense, double paid.

CalBoy
Oct 29, 2007, 07:44 PM
I disagree. These rates are good. Think about it... these include VAT which is 19%, and incoming calls and incoming SMSs from anywhere are free, on top of the free Wifi zones!

In the US, we pay through the nose for those for these services. Do the math... let's pick the middle plan at 69 Euros:

1. Remove the cost of wifi zones which in Germany equates to 30 Euros/month, i.e. 69 - 30 = 39 Euros.
2. Let's remove the cost of incoming calls and SMS messages, say another 15 Euros (pulled this out of the air, but to me it seems reasonable) i.e. 39 - 15 = 24 Euros.
3. Remove 19% VAT (cause in the US, the rate plans are advertised without taxes) i.e. 24 Euros * 0.81 = 19.4 Euros. This equates to roughly $25 per month.

Now in the US... $25/month for 200 minutes (incoming and outgoing), 150 SMSs (incoming and outgoing) and unlimited data is not good? iPhone data plan itself is $20/month! So really, $5 you are getting 200 mins of talk time and 150 SMSs.

I am sorry I disagree, but these rates are excellent!!!

Your analysis is quite arbitrary and doesn't seem to be based on any hard numbers. I believe a German poster told us that the hotspot cost is 15 Euros, and that incoming calls are not truly free.

These plans are terrible and T-Mobile should be embarrassed with this offer.

flowagner
Oct 29, 2007, 07:44 PM
i'm not exactly german but i figure the rates in austria will be the same or even more expensive.

the rates must be a joke. come on, i can have a plan for 25 euros where ALL the calls are free of charge. flat. or i can have a plan for 3 cents/minute and 3 euros monthly tarif.

those apple/tmob tarifs are a disgrace. i'm an apple fan. i love their products and i'd get everything that seems usefull to me. the iphone does. but the tarifs shock me. that's why i'll not buy it. i figure when apple/tmobile see the number of people who bought the iphone, they'll see they have to drop the price to break even.

especially in germany & austria, apple cannot come up with tarifs from like 1990.

ah: don't forget. the german customer of the iphone has to buy the iphone (i guess for like 400 euros), activate the iphone for 40 euros and pay a ridiculosuly high tarif for 100 (!) "free" minutes. come on, that's not even two hours!

why pay that much money if you can have some new state of the art nokia mobile for 0 euros, perhaps 40 euros activation and a tarif that lets you phone for as long as you wish for 25 euros?

TVGenius
Oct 29, 2007, 07:44 PM
Sorry, but I'm still missing where Visual voicemail is a 'feature'.

manu chao
Oct 29, 2007, 07:51 PM
Your analysis is quite arbitrary and doesn't seem to be based on any hard numbers. I believe a German poster told us that the hotspot cost is 15 Euros, and that incoming calls are not truly free.


Incoming calls are free as long you stay within Germany (or more general, in the country where your contract is based). That is the general rule in Europe. There might be exceptions, but I don't know of any specific ones.

gri
Oct 29, 2007, 07:58 PM
It'll be interesting to see how many people buy the phones and just unlock them.

I'm utterly damned if I'm paying these rates - it doesn't matter which ones you pick; US, UK, DE, they all suck like a Dyson. But unlike a Dyson, they keep on sucking for a year or more.

Unlocking's worth risking an iBrick to have a decent iPod, browser and phone but with a low-cost SIM card.

Otherwise simply wait for iPhone 2.0 -- February? With 3G, new OS and better applications.

Just an offline correction - the Dyson KEEPS on sucking due to its special design (no, I am not affiliated or have any interest in Dyson other than that I own one).

Again, the difference is that the VAT is IN the price, however, it is now at 19% in Germany...

megfilmworks
Oct 29, 2007, 07:59 PM
Wow with ATT for 79.99 US we get:
900 min.
unlimited data
visual voicemail
200 sms
rollover
free m2m
free nights weekends

kuebby
Oct 29, 2007, 08:23 PM
Wow with ATT for 79.99 US we get:
900 min.
unlimited data
visual voicemail
200 sms
rollover
free m2m
free nights weekends

But no free Wi-fi hotspots. And that free m2m is so deceiving, since it's only to AT&T customers, not all cell phones.

And to the poster who said wikipedia said the average US sales tax is 8.5%, that seems high to me. Maybe in some places but not many, even NYC is less than that.

naroola
Oct 29, 2007, 08:25 PM
Your analysis is quite arbitrary and doesn't seem to be based on any hard numbers. I believe a German poster told us that the hotspot cost is 15 Euros, and that incoming calls are not truly free.

These plans are terrible and T-Mobile should be embarrassed with this offer.

I just returned from Germany 2 weeks ago and I had the 15 Euro plan that I had from T-Mobile was a 24-hour usage plan over 30 days, i.e. you only have a total of 1440 minutes worth of time you can be online total within the 30 day period. Once you go over this time limit OR 30 days, the plan expires. This was the rate without having any additional T-Mobile cell phone or land line service. I got the rate of unlimited usage of $39.99/month from the T-Mobile US website which equals about 30 Euros (my initial estimate)... https://selfcare.hotspot.t-mobile.com/services_plans.do

naroola
Oct 29, 2007, 08:33 PM
Let's do the math again. From the consumer side, pre-tax prices are irrelevant, your bank account only sees the after-tax cost (from a company point of view, it is the other way around). Typical sales tax in the U.S., according to Wikipedia, is 8.5%. That will make the $60 plan cost you $65, that includes 450 min. Assuming half of them incoming minutes that roughly compares to the Complete L plan with 200 min for outgoing calls in Germany, which is 69 Euro. Taking the PPP implied by the Big Mac Index of 1.1 this translates into $76.

I am sorry, but tax rates are government imposed fees, which neither apple nor T-mobile nor the end-user have any control over. So in order to do a calculation of the true value of a good or service being sold, you have to take tax rates out of the equation. Otherwise, rate plans in Sweden (25% VAT) will seem way worse than plans UK (17.5% VAT), for example.

booksacool1
Oct 29, 2007, 08:38 PM
But no free Wi-fi hotspots. And that free m2m is so deceiving, since it's only to AT&T customers, not all cell phones.

And to the poster who said wikipedia said the average US sales tax is 8.5%, that seems high to me. Maybe in some places but not many, even NYC is less than that.

No free WiFi hotspots? So what? Its not hard to find a completely free one.

I have to admit, apple appear to be encouraging unlocking... at least they aren't encouraging anyone to go one the included plans.

QCassidy352
Oct 29, 2007, 08:42 PM
ouch... those prices... suck.

CalBoy
Oct 29, 2007, 08:45 PM
Incoming calls are free as long you stay within Germany (or more general, in the country where your contract is based). That is the general rule in Europe. There might be exceptions, but I don't know of any specific ones.
Ah ok, but even with this, the plan is a bad deal.

I just returned from Germany 2 weeks ago and I had the 15 Euro plan that I had from T-Mobile was a 24-hour usage plan over 30 days, i.e. you only have a total of 1440 minutes worth of time you can be online total within the 30 day period. Once you go over this time limit OR 30 days, the plan expires. This was the rate without having any additional T-Mobile cell phone or land line service. I got the rate of unlimited usage of $39.99/month from the T-Mobile US website which equals about 30 Euros (my initial estimate)... https://selfcare.hotspot.t-mobile.com/services_plans.do

Yes, but with the iPhone plans the value is not there. They are a bit overpriced.

Glenny2lappies
Oct 29, 2007, 08:49 PM
Just an offline correction - the Dyson KEEPS on sucking due to its special design (no, I am not affiliated or have any interest in Dyson other than that I own one).

But you can turn a Dyson off:D

min_t
Oct 29, 2007, 09:14 PM
This is a theme.

Some Country gets the iPhone. Everyone's excited.

Then they release the prices. Everyone's Shocked.

then some token Canadian comes on here and talks about 'well at least you have the iPhone!".......oh wait that's me....


ya,

i'm jealous...

Muahahaha, I like the way your mind works... hang in there. I hear Dec/Jan for Canada. I'm sorry you have Rogers, though. I think you will feel more pain than what the Germans just found out.:(

crackermac
Oct 29, 2007, 09:40 PM
I really wish we could get some free wi-fi spots as well.

comebackdwn
Oct 29, 2007, 09:44 PM
so will apple and tmobile ever team up for the iphone in the usa?

or will it always be just att?

CalBoy
Oct 29, 2007, 09:46 PM
so will apple and tmobile ever team up for the iphone in the usa?

or will it always be just att?

It will be ATT for at least the next four and a half years (a story about this before the iPhone launched indicated that ATT has a 5 year deal). After that, anything's possible.

Goldenbear
Oct 29, 2007, 10:04 PM
...And to the poster who said wikipedia said the average US sales tax is 8.5%, that seems high to me. Maybe in some places but not many, even NYC is less than that.

Yeah, but with the "fees" that ATT passes on to us, I pay 20% in "taxes & fees" out here in LA-LA Land! :mad:

nermal0
Oct 29, 2007, 10:05 PM
With these plans, pulling an iPhone out of your pocket in Germany will make you look like a dumbass now. Who is seriously willing to pay a minimum of 1600 Euros for 2 years of iPhone with a watered-down flatrate (crawling after just 200MB per month), call costs from the cell phone stone age (even when calling a person on the same network) and a less than 2 hours of free call credit plus 40 lousy SMS?

The iPhone is great, but these prices are SO ridiculous that anyone who buys it there will be subject to laughter...

jbernie
Oct 29, 2007, 10:14 PM
Sorry, but I'm still missing where Visual voicemail is a 'feature'.

I would tell you but the Apple fanboys would kill me.


I don't understand why you would want an iPhone in europe on edge only. Just wait for v2 or so and get 3G so the data is worthwhile when not on a wireless network.

And the pricing debate seems to be both ways on yay or nay but it does seem to be on the high side. The WAP part is appealing but are you buying a phone that can access the internet or an internet tablet that can be used as a phone. As an internet tablet it is appealing in this setup, but still damn expensive.

DrEwe
Oct 29, 2007, 11:18 PM
I'd almost feel sorry for your euro prices, except that we Americans have crappy healthcare and are involved in futile wars across the globe :rolleyes:

so true :mad:

CalBoy
Oct 29, 2007, 11:42 PM
I'd almost feel sorry for your euro prices, except that we Americans have crappy healthcare and are involved in futile wars across the globe :rolleyes:
Let's keep this PSRI-free shall we? ;)
And to the poster who said wikipedia said the average US sales tax is 8.5%, that seems high to me. Maybe in some places but not many, even NYC is less than that.

8.5 seems about right. Most of California is above 8.5% (state is 8.25 on its own, and counties can add on to that). Remember that it's probably a remark on an average or mode level of sales tax.

mongoos150
Oct 30, 2007, 12:07 AM
I'd just buy the iPhone from Orange, unlocked, and take it with me wherever I pleased (on whatever carrier/data plan I pleased). :cool:

Dr.Nick
Oct 30, 2007, 01:30 AM
Ok, let's review what happens:

T-Mobile complains about a decreasing number of customers every year. They aren't known for their good service and other providers offer rates as low as 10-15 Ct./min WITHOUT a monhtly fee.
Now TMOB gets THE opportunity to have a unique selling point: beeing the :apple: iphone partner for Germany.
And what are they doing? They are as greedy as ever:
- 400 € (so unsubsidised) for a sim-lock-ed device
- 25 € for the setup
- 50 € / month
- for this you only get creepy 100 minutes and 40 SMS
- Hotspot free? I buy a cell phone and don't want to be stuck at a café
- for further minutes you have to bleed 40Ct. / min (remember what I wrote above!)
- after 200 MB they throttle your bandwidth to 64kbit/s. Come on, how much are 200 MB? Surfing with the speed of a modem?
- they want to pin you down 2 years

If you use too few minutes you paid too much. If you use more than 100 minute you pay too much... hmmm

They just aren't learning it. I hope they will be screwed by it.

redAPPLE
Oct 30, 2007, 01:44 AM
I disagree. These rates are good. Think about it... these include VAT which is 19%, and incoming calls and incoming SMSs from anywhere are free, on top of the free Wifi zones!

In the US, we pay through the nose for those for these services. Do the math... let's pick the middle plan at 69 Euros:

1. Remove the cost of wifi zones which in Germany equates to 30 Euros/month, i.e. 69 - 30 = 39 Euros.
2. Let's remove the cost of incoming calls and SMS messages, say another 15 Euros (pulled this out of the air, but to me it seems reasonable) i.e. 39 - 15 = 24 Euros.
3. Remove 19% VAT (cause in the US, the rate plans are advertised without taxes) i.e. 24 Euros * 0.81 = 19.4 Euros. This equates to roughly $25 per month.

Now in the US... $25/month for 200 minutes (incoming and outgoing), 150 SMSs (incoming and outgoing) and unlimited data is not good? iPhone data plan itself is $20/month! So really, $5 you are getting 200 mins of talk time and 150 SMSs.

I am sorry I disagree, but these rates are excellent!!!



I disagree. These rates are good. Think about it... these include VAT which is 19%, and incoming calls and incoming SMSs from anywhere are free, on top of the free Wifi zones!

In the US, we pay through the nose for those for these services. Do the math... let's pick the middle plan at 69 Euros:

1. Remove the cost of wifi zones which in Germany equates to 30 Euros/month, i.e. 69 - 30 = 39 Euros.
2. Let's remove the cost of incoming calls and SMS messages, say another 15 Euros (pulled this out of the air, but to me it seems reasonable) i.e. 39 - 15 = 24 Euros.
3. Remove 19% VAT (cause in the US, the rate plans are advertised without taxes) i.e. 24 Euros * 0.81 = 19.4 Euros. This equates to roughly $25 per month.

Now in the US... $25/month for 200 minutes (incoming and outgoing), 150 SMSs (incoming and outgoing) and unlimited data is not good? iPhone data plan itself is $20/month! So really, $5 you are getting 200 mins of talk time and 150 SMSs.

I am sorry I disagree, but these rates are excellent!!!

maybe the mods could repair this. ha ha. sorry, don't know how to report something like this.

groovebuster
Oct 30, 2007, 02:17 AM
As a German I can say that the rates are ridiculous. The iPhone is aiming at consumers. Who the hell would spend that kind of money for a phone???

After all it is just that: a phone with some bells and whistles added...

Anybody who is spending this kind of money for a lifestyle gadget must be totally out of his mind. Especially since the iPhone has some really big limitations:

- no UMTS!
- no possibility to use it as a modem for a Computer

Combined with the rates of T-Mobile it gets close to robbery. And for all the people again who are not living in Germany but have an opinion anyway: THESE RATES ARE FAR FROM BEING GOOD!

Hotspots for free? Laughable... Spread 4000 Hotspots over a country that is small and populated very dense... and then try to find one of these Hotspots when you need one. I don't want to sit in a café everytime I want speed. Besides of finding one in the first place. I want the speed when I need it. And mostly that is not when I am chilling at a nice place. And the Hotspot ist not for free there anyway then. You have to order at least a drink or something...

I can book an internet flat (UMTS!) with my phone here in Germany for 25.-€/month. Yes, unlimited internet at UMTS speed and I can use the phone as a modem. That is a fair deal.

Apple really dropped the ball here in Germany with the iPhone... They should have waited for a UMTS version, open it up to modem usage and then went with another carrier like e.g. e-plus.

And T-Mobile should subtract themselves from the market asap. I almost feel sorry for them...

groovebuster

c-Row
Oct 30, 2007, 02:17 AM
"Yeah, you can get the iPhone in Germany! Now, bend over."

:(

Vinnie_vw
Oct 30, 2007, 02:28 AM
Wow, high prices. So how much of a cut is Apple getting? If I ever get an iPhone, I'll so unlock it.

.Andy
Oct 30, 2007, 02:47 AM
You guys think these prices are expensive. Just wait until you see what the plans will be in Australia :eek:.

TheSpecialist
Oct 30, 2007, 02:50 AM
WTF! That does it! If I'm getting an iPhone I'm unlocking it. I live in the Netherlands and I pay 32.50 euro for a Sony Ericsson K800i, 150 minutes and 1000 test messages. Wtf, screw this.

Bodypainter
Oct 30, 2007, 02:51 AM
i understand that a company wants to make money, but apple turned into some kind of ripp-off company on which the consumer (or apple client) is some kind of "thing" that has to be ripped-off. the iphone is a nice telephone with nice features you can actually also get when you buy an ipod touch. however, looking a these prices, i am speechless. i have NEVER seen such prices before! i can not imagine that someone who has a brain will pay 89 euros (129 dollars!) month after month for an iphone! in austria we call this "deppen-steuer" which could be translated into "nerd-tax", especially considering the fact that we have providers which let you phone for 1 cent (or even free) with a monthly fee of 6,99 euro. imagine: 6,99 euro (free market) versus 89 euro (apple). that is 13 times more! imagine you go to mac donalds and instead of 5,95 they charge you 77,35 euro for a menu. whow! everyone would ask if mac donalds is nuts and would probably throw the menu to the cash-desk-lady. i hope that people will not buy the phone under these curcumstances. it would be really cool to see jobs face if he says: we sold 0 iphones in germany. strange! why? it was such a GOOD DEAL we offered them...

zipelius
Oct 30, 2007, 02:56 AM
Wow, high prices. So how much of a cut is Apple getting? If I ever get an iPhone, I'll so unlock it.

Yeah... i never buy iPhone on those prices. :eek:

I use now unlimited data (384 kbit/s) + 1000sms + 1000 MMS = 9,95€ / month!
So if apple wanna sell phone to me... it must be unlocked or much better contract. WAKE UP STEVE!!!

Elrond39
Oct 30, 2007, 02:58 AM
WTF! That does it! If I'm getting an iPhone I'm unlocking it. I live in the Netherlands and I pay 32.50 euro for a Sony Ericsson K800i, 150 minutes and 1000 test messages. Wtf, screw this.

I got a special offer deal with T-Mobile through studentmobiel.nl a long time ago, and I'm getting 150 minutes and 20 text messages for €10 a month. :cool: (In reality this means that I usually pay about €15 a month after over-SMS's and taxes, but, I've yet to pay more than €20 in a month. I don't text that much, really.) I did buy my phone for full-price, unlocked, but it was worth it.

Hoping for a 3G iPhone in the spring, and an unlock. :)

Bye Bye Baby
Oct 30, 2007, 03:03 AM
Personally I´d love an iPhone. However if it ever comes to Norway and has prices resembling anything like Germany I´ll happily stick with my current none iPhone. Those prices are insane. The phone isn´t even 3G. Apple in this instance is being VERY greedy.

You've hit the nail on the head- Apple has gone greedy big time with this one! Ever heard of the farmer who killed the goose who laid the golden egg. Careful Apple, greed always backfires. Someone always finds a way to make you pay! :)

groovebuster
Oct 30, 2007, 03:11 AM
I disagree. These rates are good.

They are not.

1. Remove the cost of wifi zones which in Germany equates to 30 Euros/month, i.e. 69 - 30 = 39 Euros.

With UMTS you don't need WiFi zones at all...


2. Let's remove the cost of incoming calls and SMS messages, say another 15 Euros (pulled this out of the air, but to me it seems reasonable) i.e. 39 - 15 = 24 Euros.

Interesting math... since I don't have to pay incoming calls anyway in Germany I can subtract what Americans pay for them from the price? I don't know what you are smoking, but I want some! ;-)

3. Remove 19% VAT (cause in the US, the rate plans are advertised without taxes) i.e. 24 Euros * 0.81 = 19.4 Euros. This equates to roughly $25 per month.

After all I have to pay the tax anyway... and VAT in Europe is much higher than in the US.

Now in the US... $25/month for 200 minutes (incoming and outgoing), 150 SMSs (incoming and outgoing) and unlimited data is not good? iPhone data plan itself is $20/month! So really, $5 you are getting 200 mins of talk time and 150 SMSs.

I find the iPhone in the US already way overpriced... Hello? We are talking about a phone! 200 minutes is nothing. I speak on the phone around 10h a month. My maximum so far was 22h...

I couldn't care less for SMS. I only use them in emergencies since they are taking forever to type. Only when a time or numbers are included I tend to use a SMS. It's faster and esaier to leave a message on the mailbox... My SMS average per month... maybe ten.

So let's say I would have the 'Complete L' tarif... The month I was talking 22h on the phone would have costed me (I only count 2/3 of the minutes, because I don't have to pay for incoming calls): 69€ + 680minutes*0.39€ = 334,20€

Wow, that is inexpensive!!! :eek:

Now here is what I paid that month for my cell phone bill: less than 40.-€ thanks to my telephone flatrate with 'base'... And even if I want unlimited internet (UMTS) it would just cost me 25.-€ more.

I am sorry I disagree, but these rates are excellent!!!

Still... they are not...

groovebuster

Glenny2lappies
Oct 30, 2007, 03:34 AM
- no possibility to use it as a modem for a Computer

I didn't realise that. This makes it a pretty limited device as I'm sure you won't be able to transfer the free hotspot minutes over to a computer - even if it is a Mac.

Apple is a master at creating "iWant" which is aimed fairly and squarely at the heart. But there's just so many things wrong with the iPhone and the massively overpriced packages that the "rational" head will step in and "just say no".

I think I've now made up my mind; iWon't be buying. Sorry Apple, you're just too damn greedy. I'm sure you'll find lots of suckers, but not me.


in austria we call this "deppen-steuer" which could be translated into "nerd-tax"

Nice one!

Glenny2lappies
Oct 30, 2007, 03:41 AM
Why has nobody mentioned the roaming prices? I bet T-Mobile will want your first-born as part of the deal.

I've not been able to uncover the roaming charges - €10/min? Something completely outrageous I'm sure.

What about the data charges? My current GPRS roaming data rates are around €10/Mb. I'm sure T-Mobile will match that and with typical modern bloated websites, browsing whilst roaming will be out of the question.

Has anyone uncovered the prices?

What about incoming charges for roaming?

Romano
Oct 30, 2007, 04:25 AM
The prices are way too high for german plans! :cool:

I am paying 45 € at Vodafone for Flatrate phone calls and sms - day and night, 24 h a day, 30/31 days a month.

I don´t need email 24/7 as SMS is (for short messages) way faster and really everyone in germany has a mobile phone (but not everyone has email).

Also, I am having the T-Mobile/Com HotSpot-Flatrate included in my DSL plan but I´ve used it twice the last 3 Month (once at the Airport and once at MacDonalds).

49 € (and T-Com said, the lowest plan will start far below 50 € :eek: ) is really not a good price. You can have UMTS Flatrates for 25 € (BASE), or a prepaid card paying 10 Cents for every min. to every carrier. (ZEHNSATION).

teekayx
Oct 30, 2007, 05:03 AM
I said it yesterday already on german mac forums: These plans simply suck. They are too expensive and it just shows how greedy T-Mobile is. I don't know what the general view of americans is on T-Mobile as a carrier, but in Germany we know them for being too expensive, having a bad service and being well.. did i say it already.. being overpriced.
The iPhone in Germany will certainly not be a success, Apple should reconsider and switch the carrier.
For me the main reason for an iPhone was good web access (although slow due to EDGE), but them throtthling the already ridiculous speed of EDGE down to 64 kbit/s is totally off.

obirah
Oct 30, 2007, 05:14 AM
This is a theme.

Some Country gets the iPhone. Everyone's excited.

Then they release the prices. Everyone's Shocked.

then some token Canadian comes on here and talks about 'well at least you have the iPhone!".......oh wait that's me....


ya,

i'm jealous...

Well, don't be. I am in Germany and could get the iPhone but why should I do that?

I just made the math that for 24 months I would pay:

at least 1600 EUR for the M Packet and believe me, it will get near 2000 EUR with few SMS here and few minutes over the limit there across 2 years + sms abroad, calling friends outside Germany, going to Austria snowboarding etc.

at least 2081 EUR for the L Packet and let's say another 200-300 EUR for the other reasons.

at least 2560 EUR for the XL Packet and some 200 EUR more for other stuff.


Sorry, but for that amount of money I will stick with my N73 still working good as a phone and get a Macbook Pro - at least I can earn some money with this gadget and not just zooming web pages...

+ As a T-Com premium customer I already have the Hotspots for free
+ I can still get an iPod touch for the kicks of it...

I thought that phone services will get cheaper with the time (as it happens with land lines here - we have flatrates etc.) but Apple happens to stop this from happening soon.

And this 64kbit limitations are so last century. When T-Mobile can't be sure of handling the whole traffic, then make it slower but don't take that much for it!

bartelby
Oct 30, 2007, 05:16 AM
All non-US mobile phone users should protest and demand better rates. It's really ridiculous how much more expensive it is here in Europe. It's not like this is new technology or anything. Rates are 3 to 4 times more expensive, and many places (like Switzerland) haven't even began to offer unlimited data. Data rates are through the roof.

I think there's quite a lot of European Apple users who aren't bothering with the iPhone because the plans are so pathetic. I know of quite a few in the UK.

We'll see what happens in just over a week. Of course, there are those who just have to have the latest gadget, no matter how much of a rip off it is...

I really get the impression Apple don't have a clue that SMS and MMS are a bigger thing over here then in the US.

tjcampbell
Oct 30, 2007, 05:32 AM
Sucks to be German.

groovebuster
Oct 30, 2007, 05:50 AM
Sucks to be German.
Actually not... ;)

The iPhone is overhyped anyway. If something like that would make me think that my life is miserable... :rolleyes:

I am in a management position since a while now and over the years I really found out that the real luxury is not to be available 24/7. My communication habbits dramatically changed over the years... especially while I am not at work.

No iPhone for me? No big loss... at least not for me. It's just a toy after all that I would hardly use for more than phoning and for surfing the web occasionally.

groovebuster

aramelus
Oct 30, 2007, 05:50 AM
The most ridiculous thing is to cut the WFi speed after 200Mb. 200 Mb is maybe 2-3 hours surfing the internet just playing around with youtube and google maps. Also you can't basically use the mobile iTunes store...

tripwire
Oct 30, 2007, 05:55 AM
I said it yesterday already on german mac forums: These plans simply suck. They are too expensive and it just shows how greedy T-Mobile is. I don't know what the general view of americans is on T-Mobile as a carrier, but in Germany we know them for being too expensive, having a bad service and being well.. did i say it already.. being overpriced.
The iPhone in Germany will certainly not be a success, Apple should reconsider and switch the carrier.
For me the main reason for an iPhone was good web access (although slow due to EDGE), but them throtthling the already ridiculous speed of EDGE down to 64 kbit/s is totally off.

I don't think T-mobile's prices are that outrageous.
Don't forget Apple wants a kickback from the montly subscription.
In the US the kickback is said to be 18 USD per month, so i reckon that in Europe it's at least 18 euros.

christian_k
Oct 30, 2007, 05:56 AM
Sucks to be German.

No.

A lot of people here might start to think, mobile service is always terribly expensive in Germany. This is not true. I am a German, I have used mobile phones since 1996 and I have used all 4 networks (T-Mobile, Vodafone, EPlus and O2) over the years.

Prices are extreemly different.

Example:
A prepaid card from T-Mobile ("XTra Classic") will cost you 0,39 Eur / min (to landlines and all mobiles). You have GPRS/EDGE/3G/HSDPA access, but it costs 19(!) Eur/ MB, in other words: you cannot use data unless you are owner of some oil sources.

A prepaid card from "Bild-Mobil" will cost you 0,10 Eur per Minute . Data (also including GPRS/EDGE/3G/HSDPA) is 0,35 Eur/MB, if you have DSL at home and use mobile data only ocasionaly, that's ok ! What about coverage? Easy answer: Bild-Mobil uses T-Mobile's network. So coverage will be exactly the same.

T-Mobile in contrast charges you 0,39 or 0,29 per additional minute even if you have that expensive iPhone plan.

Other operators also offer better prices for data (9,95 for 250 MB or 25 for a flatrate without slowdowns that is intended for notebook use).

Mobile phone is not generally expensive here, but T-Mo is very expensive. So I will use other services. This obviously means no iPhone for me, but other devices are not that bad....

Christian

Zaibatsu
Oct 30, 2007, 06:45 AM
So I'm living in Germany and was really into getting the iPhone on the 9th November, i even aranged with the 49€ pricetag when it was revealed a few weeks ago.
But now, as they made the conditions even worse (200Mb Traffic limit...), I do think about getting an unlocked iPhone from the U.S. or France(you can only buy them from t-mobile here, which includes signing the 2 year contract). But when i think about this again, there is no other carrier offering EDGE in Germany beside T-Mobile. So all the people here talkin about unlocking the iPhone in Germany, either have to turn down the idea of Surfing & Mailing or have to deal with an even slower connection via gprs (which is still slower than the capped 64kbit). The last possibility is not buying the iPhone at all. At least for me, this would be a very sad decision, because I was already getting used to the use-cases, the iPhone would have made possible. :(

manu chao
Oct 30, 2007, 06:51 AM
I am sorry, but tax rates are government imposed fees, which neither apple nor T-mobile nor the end-user have any control over. So in order to do a calculation of the true value of a good or service being sold, you have to take tax rates out of the equation. Otherwise, rate plans in Sweden (25% VAT) will seem way worse than plans UK (17.5% VAT), for example.

Taxes are part of the cost of doing business. If the cost of doing business is higher in one country than another than a company either has to charge the consumers more in this country or accept lower margins. If you are analysing a company you might be interested in what their margins are in different markets. But you might as well be interested how much they charge their customers to estimate their potential success on the market.

And to analyse margins, excluding VAT or sales tax will only get you so far as there are a lot of other costs that might differ noticeably between countries. If you look at businesses like Starbucks, their labour costs will vary by several factors between different countries.

manu chao
Oct 30, 2007, 06:54 AM
8.5 seems about right. Most of California is above 8.5% (state is 8.25 on its own, and counties can add on to that). Remember that it's probably a remark on an average or mode level of sales tax.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world

If you doubt that figure, argue with the people over at Wikipedia.

Data
Oct 30, 2007, 07:03 AM
I'd love an iphone but getting only 40 sms's en 100 minutes for49 Euro is just redicilus and way to expensive. Unlocked phone without the Data and voice mail options is the only affordable way to go for a reguler person like me that uses sms very much, i now have a 300 sms and 120 minutes voor 25 Euro a month, thats al i need from my phone basicly.
If they would only offer some more variety in the possible packeges if it comes to sms i would be much happier.
Unlocking is the way to go, and it's not the consumers fault , this is just redicilus .

Miguel Louren
Oct 30, 2007, 07:12 AM
Personally I´d love an iPhone. However if it ever comes to Norway and has prices resembling anything like Germany I´ll happily stick with my current none iPhone. Those prices are insane. The phone isn´t even 3G. Apple in this instance is being VERY greedy.

Hi there, Just though I'd say I totally agree, the first time I saw the contract costs here in the UK I went mad! But then again, you need to remember that:

1. Its not Apple who are setting the contract costs, its the carriers &
2. The addition of the unlimited data feeds are included in the price... I am currently using Vodafone... when I asked them if I could connect to use their service, it took them almost 5 weeks to set it up on my phone... and I have a Razor! it should be on there already but apparently it has to be set up!?!

Anyway... once I had it, I got a letter detailing all the costs... it would cost me £1.50 per MB downloaded or £1 Per day (unlimited downloads) if I use pre pay... ie: £30 additional costs per month!

All that said, I'm a little happier with the O2 contract costs knowing data is included. More so that it wont take me another 5 weeks to wait for activation... (and I never used it in the end! - too expensive)

Now, dont you think that IF apple has anything to do with the contract costs it would have been to ensure data is included? So who's the bad guy? Apple or the Network providers?

The only think I am not 'that' happy with, are the inclusive minutes and texts...

Lets face it... if anyone kills the iphone, it will be the greedy network providers, NOT apple...

ML

sachxn
Oct 30, 2007, 07:12 AM
Its good. At present I am in Germany for next 8 months. I was eagarly waiting for this. Now is the time to buy iPhone here.

Sachin
Automation Tool (http://qtp.blogspot.com)

uaaerospace
Oct 30, 2007, 07:30 AM
8.5 seems about right. Most of California is above 8.5% (state is 8.25 on its own, and counties can add on to that). Remember that it's probably a remark on an average or mode level of sales tax.

Agreed. It is 9.25% in most of TN, and 9.75% in my hometown. Keep in mind there is no state income tax. It's 9% where I am in Alabama.

jamthehut
Oct 30, 2007, 07:45 AM
Shoot. I am in the States until friday when I go back to Berlin. I wonder if it is worth me buying the iphone here, and tinkering to unlock it(i am a solderer so it shouldnt be so difficult for me) to get my simyo card to work in it. Those tmobile prices are just completely ridiculous if you live from paycheck to paycheck like most europeans, only refilling your phone with credit when you have the budget to do so. I charge up about 20-30 euros a month and get great sms rates, which I use much more than calling, and I want something I can use at wifi hotspots...

Romano
Oct 30, 2007, 08:03 AM
Let´s hope Apple or better the iPhone isn´t going to be the next Walmart in Germany :rolleyes: :eek:

Walmart Germany failed:
Clearly dominating the US retail market, Wal-Mart expanded into Germany (and Europe)
in late 1997. Wal-Mart’s attempt to apply the company’s proven US success formula
in an unmodified manner to the German market, however, turned out to be nothing
short of a fiasco. Upon closer inspection, the circumstances of the company’s failure to
establish itself in Germany give reason to believe that it pursued a fundamentally
flawed internationalization strategy due to an incredible degree of ignorance of the
specific features of the extremely competitive German (retail) market. Moreover, instead
of attracting consumers with an innovative approach to retailing, as it has done in the
USA, in Germany the company does not seem to be able to offer customers any compelling
value proposition in comparison with its local competitors. 2006, Walmart pulled out of Germany.

Bye Bye Baby
Oct 30, 2007, 08:45 AM
Apple is Apple's own worst enemy!

Forcing people to pay huge prices for such products, locking them into contracts, it's no wonder that people buy phones to unlock them. I would do the same!

Bye Bye Baby
Oct 30, 2007, 08:50 AM
Hi there, Just though I'd say I totally agree, the first time I saw the contract costs here in the UK I went mad! But then again, you need to remember that:

1. Its not Apple who are setting the contract costs, its the carriers &

Now, dont you think that IF apple has anything to do with the contract costs it would have been to ensure data is included? So who's the bad guy? Apple or the Network providers?

Lets face it... if anyone kills the iphone, it will be the greedy network providers, NOT apple...

ML

What an unbelievable thing to write. It took Apple months to get deals with carriers, work out pricing and most importantly to secure revenues and magically Apple doesn't have a say.

Wake up people Apple has gone greedy over this one. Great product that is being hampered by corporate greed!

aliquis-
Oct 30, 2007, 08:53 AM
Damn that's expensive, 3G 3.6/7.2mpbs wireless data here in Sweden is 99 sek or around 11 euro or so. I don't know what a decent price for 100 minutes + free data would be but such prices puts it at only "high consumers" reach.

Laglorden
Oct 30, 2007, 09:29 AM
Well, those prices are about 15-20 times per month more expensive than the "normal" prices here in Sweden at least and then you're "tied up" to it for two years...

If you "fall" for this I think you are going to feel quite stupid in a couple of months when Apple introduces lowers the prices (they GOT to, this CAN'T be a huge hit at those prices... consumers can't be that stupid... no the 1 million phones sold in the US must be a fluke... *tries to persuade myself*) or in one year when the next iPhone comes out.

"Nerd-tax" indeed :)

sasza
Oct 30, 2007, 10:35 AM
I live in Finland, my operator (Elisa-Vodafone) charges €0,069/min and sms €0,059/sms, monthly fee is 1€. Let's look at the numbers: I call (let's say) 200 minutes so it makes €13,80 + €8,85 for 150 sms messages. It makes €22,65, BUT I'wont call 200 min every month, sometimes it's more or less. Comparing to Complete L (€69) rate it's just insanely expensive! The only good rate for iPhone is Complete XL, but it's just expensive too, I mean 89€ every month it's not cheap.
Of course you have to pay for iPhone too - 400€ as I guess PLUS monthly charge...
Here in Finland I can get Nokia N95 for 25€/month with minutes and 2 years contract, but I don't have to pay for the phone itself.
And one more thing ;-) 2 years is a long long period, who knows what phones will be available within a year and you will be locked to your iPhone and expensive contract. Let's see.

snowe
Oct 30, 2007, 10:59 AM
I live in Finland, my operator (Elisa-Vodafone) charges €0,069/min and sms €0,059/sms, monthly fee is 1€. Let's look at the numbers: I call (let's say) 200 minutes so it makes €13,80 + €8,85 for 150 sms messages. It makes €22,65, BUT I'wont call 200 min every month, sometimes it's more or less. Comparing to Complete L (€69) rate it's just insanely expensive! The only good rate for iPhone is Complete XL, but it's just expensive too, I mean 89€ every month it's not cheap.
Of course you have to pay for iPhone too - 400€ as I guess PLUS monthly charge...
Here in Finland I can get Nokia N95 for 25€/month with minutes and 2 years contract, but I don't have to pay for the phone itself.
And one more thing ;-) 2 years is a long long period, who knows what phones will be available within a year and you will be locked to your iPhone and expensive contract. Let's see.

You didn't count the unlimited data. Unlimited 3G data would be something between 9 to 19 euro per month depending of the operator. And the hotspots.. I dont give any value for the hotspots as the network is way too sparse in the country size like german. But who needs the wlan anyway if you got unlimited data?

Yes, those german rates are terrible. Hoping that rates in scandinavia would be cheaper. With those rates no-one in scandinavia would by the iPhone.

swagi
Oct 30, 2007, 12:04 PM
It is actually a mixed bag - and I think Apple's insisting on free unlimited data in each plan is to blame for these prices.

Data and WLAN access charges with T-Mobile are extremely expensive in Germany, no matter if ad hoc or with volume subscriptions. Apple forcing them to provide that "unlimited" caused skimping on included minutes and horrendous per minute rates when exceeding the allocation. 39 Cents per minute is a joke - you can get prepaid cards (no minimum, no fees) with charges as low as 14 Cents/min.

So - for people using data services a lot (and initiating only a few calls) it is a good deal, even a very good deal. EDGE coverage with T-Mobile is great, they have more hot spots than anybody else etc. For people reading one or two emails on the go per week - it is completely unsuitable. For most teens (tons of SMS and hours of talking, even when dialling the wrong number) - it will be financial suicide. So - bottom line, the plan is mainly favouring business users. These may have to wait weeks, months or years before network admins add support for the iPhone on the corporate network.

I think they miss out on a lot of potential buyers here - half the German population might be in Paris in early November :p

Completely agree! Especially the Paris part is interesting. I wonder what T-mobile will do, and especially what Apple will do, to keep these unlocked French iPhones from the market.

But considering the lack of 3G, which most Apple apologists still don't really give a damn about, I'm perfectly happy with my Nokia E65 (which btw can be used as modem and utilizes a WebKit browser, which can also do Flash)!

chr1s60
Oct 30, 2007, 12:43 PM
I disagree. These rates are good. Think about it... these include VAT which is 19%, and incoming calls and incoming SMSs from anywhere are free, on top of the free Wifi zones!

In the US, we pay through the nose for those for these services. Do the math... let's pick the middle plan at 69 Euros:

1. Remove the cost of wifi zones which in Germany equates to 30 Euros/month, i.e. 69 - 30 = 39 Euros.
2. Let's remove the cost of incoming calls and SMS messages, say another 15 Euros (pulled this out of the air, but to me it seems reasonable) i.e. 39 - 15 = 24 Euros.
3. Remove 19% VAT (cause in the US, the rate plans are advertised without taxes) i.e. 24 Euros * 0.81 = 19.4 Euros. This equates to roughly $25 per month.

Now in the US... $25/month for 200 minutes (incoming and outgoing), 150 SMSs (incoming and outgoing) and unlimited data is not good? iPhone data plan itself is $20/month! So really, $5 you are getting 200 mins of talk time and 150 SMSs.

I am sorry I disagree, but these rates are excellent!!!

How do you figure free WiFi zones are worth 30 Euros??? It isn't free home internet, you have to go somewhere to get the WiFi, so unless you live at a T-Mobile hot spot, I don't think it is worth that much money.

Even with the incoming SMS they still can't send many. Most people I know SEND a minimum of about 800-1,000 texts a month and this does not include the ones they receive. That alone means those plans would lead to about $60 in overage charges for text alone.

As far as incoming calls, we have mobile to mobile that takes off a lot of minutes. Probably not as much as free incoming calls, but it still helps out a lot. Most people I know with an iPhone also talk on their phone for a lot longer than 200 minutes per month, even excluding incoming calls.

I think your cost evaluation is a tad bit off.

elmo151
Oct 30, 2007, 01:53 PM
do visitors from at&t get free access to these wifi sites? how about rates for local calling?:confused:

photobiker
Oct 30, 2007, 02:24 PM
Let's do the math again. From the consumer side, pre-tax prices are irrelevant, your bank account only sees the after-tax cost (from a company point of view, it is the other way around). Typical sales tax in the U.S., according to Wikipedia, is 8.5%. That will make the $60 plan cost you $65, that includes 450 min. Assuming half of them incoming minutes that roughly compares to the Complete L plan with 200 min for outgoing calls in Germany, which is 69 Euro. Taking the PPP implied by the Big Mac Index of 1.1 this translates into $76.

Correct. It's not because America is lead by cretins and the US dollar is going down the drain that Europeans pay more for their expenses in euros - duh!

In California, the basic iPhone plan costs me $72.70.

In Europe, a similar plan would cost me $76 in Purchasing Power Parity.

The difference is entirely in the tax rates (8.5% in the US and 19.4% in Europe) but now when I look at what the Europeans get for their taxes (free health care, free education, unemployment benefits, retirement - and I'm not even talking about 6 weeks vacation) versus what we Americans get for our dear tax dollars (an endless war, an insatiable military and tax cuts for the rich), I'm tempted to think that the Europeans have quite a sweet deal. Or at least, they sure manage their money better than we do.

Glenny2lappies
Oct 30, 2007, 03:34 PM
Does anyone know how much the plans cost for roaming?
- incoming calls whilst in, say, France
- outgoing calls, say from France back home to Germany/UK?

I've never been able to find out these charges.

takao
Oct 30, 2007, 04:46 PM
hm i'm in austria and jsut recently got myself a new contract together with a k750i and it's 5 euro per month, 5 cent in every network and because i'm a student i get _1000_ text messages for free

let's say i will talk 100 minutes a month (which i don't since i can send more messages than i would possible ever want) that would set me back 10 euro per month
that would leave me with more than 40 euro which i could spend on data volume packages

or i could take a plan which costs only 4 euro per month and every call costs 4 cents but don't get a new phone with it

some other provider has free e-mail for mobile phones in a 3.9 euro 3.9 cent/minute plan

for UMTS i heard of some 28 euro tarif with 300 minutes, 0,5 GB traffic, 1000 free text messages, and free TV for your mobile, 6 cents/minute if you exceed your 300 minutes and to make it more interesting: if yomebody else calls you, _you actually get 6 cent/minute_ from the carrier

PabloGS
Oct 30, 2007, 05:34 PM
Why has nobody mentioned the roaming prices? I bet T-Mobile will want your first-born as part of the deal.

Has anyone uncovered the prices?

What about incoming charges for roaming?

Well Glen, EU laws and regulations limit the maximum price for outgoing roaming calls to 49¢/min (excl. Tax or VAT) and I think 24¢/min for incoming calls when roaming within the EU. This applies to all EU countries.

So for a German roaming in Greece this would be 49*1.19 = 58¢/min as a maximum they could charge, likely they'll charge less.
58¢/min for roaming in the UK, Austria, Portugal, Ireland, ... you get the point

Edit:
Here's a link to the EU-Law and regulation:

http://ec.europa.eu/information_society/newsroom/cf/itemlongdetail.cfm?item_id=3670

Glenny2lappies
Oct 30, 2007, 08:12 PM
Well Glen, EU laws and regulations limit the maximum price for outgoing roaming calls to 49¢/min (excl. Tax or VAT) and I think 24¢/min for incoming calls when roaming within the EU. This applies to all EU countries.

So for a German roaming in Greece this would be 49*1.19 = 58¢/min as a maximum they could charge, likely they'll charge less.
58¢/min for roaming in the UK, Austria, Portugal, Ireland, ... you get the point

Edit:
Here's a link to the EU-Law and regulation:

http://ec.europa.eu/information_society/newsroom/cf/itemlongdetail.cfm?item_id=3670

Thanks for that - I'd forgotten about this new rule (being an 'island monkey' who roams, but finds it so expensive that I try not to make calls -- and I should read my bill!)

Interesting article on this here:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/10/25/labour_anti_roaming_cap/

The amazing thing is that this just shows how expensive the T-Mobile/O2 deals are.

h00ligan
Oct 30, 2007, 08:18 PM
so do we know the 16gb phone is there?

ogee
Oct 30, 2007, 09:56 PM
Im very disappointed with these plans..... not so much the price but the limit of 200Mb. No point having an internet device if the service provided cripples the service. Needless to say, I will now not be switching to T-mobile.

PabloGS
Oct 31, 2007, 04:17 PM
The amazing thing is that this just shows how expensive the T-Mobile/O2 deals are.


Indeed, I completely have to agree...

39¢/min incl. VAT compared to max 49¢ by EU regulations when roaming...

That's almost as if I were roaming all the time - Insanely expensive.

I'll stay with my 5¢/min prepaid tariff and my N73.

I mean... I don't get the hype all about the iPhone...

- no UMTS
- can't use the phone as a mobile modem either
- no video telephony
- closed platform
- battery can't be replaced by user
- high price
- high tariff
- just a lousy 2mp camera with no flash photography
- GPS navigation

My N73:
+ UMTS
+ works as a modem
+ has two cameras, where one is for video telephony, mms and stuff
+ open platform (Symbian OS)
+ battery replaced easily
+ now that it's 2 years old, it's pretty cheap
+ can be used with any provider
+ 3mp camera with flash
+ GPS Navigation with a GPS Mouse and Software like TomTom or Route66

Now you :apple:gurus don't start crying things like "It's easy to use" or "It's got a big screen". I know that: Look, last month I had the choice, 160GB iPod classic or iPod Touch or wait for an iPhone... I went with the classic because of it's functionality. Phones at price ranges of 200$ or € and up aren't about the looks, and they also are about functionality and a N95, BlackBerry or Linux or Windows based PocketPC Phone are what business people or tech savvy guys usually get.

Sorry Apple... fix or implement those things I criticize, and I'll happily spend 500€ for an iPhone - meanwhile I'll stick with my N73 (and MacBook) to surf the Web while on the road.

Dembo
Nov 1, 2007, 06:58 AM
You didn't count the unlimited data. Unlimited 3G data would be something between 9 to 19 euro per month depending of the operator. And the hotspots.. I dont give any value for the hotspots as the network is way too sparse in the country size like german. But who needs the wlan anyway if you got unlimited data?

That's exactly what T-Mobile wants you to believe but it is just plain wrong: EDGE ist not 3G. People call it 2.5G or 2.75G but essentially its plain old 2G GPRS. Forget about the maximum possible data rate - if multiple devices connect to the same cell, data rate drops down to a crawl. I did a few test runs using my (acctually my employer's) T-Mobile HSDPA/EDGE PC Card and it stinks. It would be just okay if they were charging a decent price but I will not pay today's prices for yesterday's data speeds and last century's voice plans. Even if they are coming with tomorrow's device... :(

As it stands I think the only way is to wait for the 3G enabled iPhone. Damn... That crappy Samsung SGH i600 suddenly looks much more attractive *sigh*.