Disturbing Male Rape

[Waluigi]

Daytona Man Raped In Girlfriend's Car (http://www.local6.com/news/2468055/detail.html)

Very touchy subject: rape. I've heard a lot of horror stories, where women have been raped. While most of those cases are very disturbing, when a straight male gets raped, I think that it is worse. I'm not saying rape is good, it is a horrible crime. I'm not saying raping a women is in any way shape or form acceptable. I'm just saying that when women have sex, the man performs the same act as they would in a rape(in a totally different manner, yes, I know, RAPE IS BAD, I'm not justifying it).

However, if a man rapes a straight man, it is a totally different situation. When men have sex with women, they don't have anything penetrating up their butt, or have to swallow another guy's excrements. They are forced to do or receive something they will never do, which makes it a worse crime.

If possible, hopefully we can have an intelligent, discussion on this. If I have offended anyone, I'm very sorry. I'm not trying to hurt any feelings. Any rape is a horrible crime. I just think that male rape is worse then female rape.

--Waluigi

EDIT: Posted in political and war discussion because it would most likely be moved here anyway.

[mactastic]

Rape isn't about sex, it's about control and power. It doesn't matter how you are humiliated, it's all the same result.

Guys can't end up pregnant as a result of rape, so that adds a little something extra for women.

[shecky]

ahhhhhhhhh right... so gay sex is more distasteful than straight sex. whats if the woman raped is lesbian? is that just as distasteful as a straight man raped by a gay man? This is the discussion you are looking to have here? what kind of rape is worse?

You have not offened me at all, i just think this is the most idiotic post I have ever seen on a forum.

[mactastic]

Often female victims of rape are sodomized as well.

I really can't believe you would try to say something like this. Seriously, rape is rape is rape. It doesn't matter who, how, where or anything like that. It's the experience of being helpless and violated that makes it such a horrible crime, not which pipe it goes in.

[bousozoku]

The only reason I can imagine that you would think the rape of a man worse is because you are a man and hadn't truly considered the effect of a rape on a woman.

If nothing else, it's opened your eyes.

[zimv20]

rape is a crime of violence. i wouldn't dare argue that hitting a man is worse than hitting a woman.

[mactastic]

Waluigi, you might be interested in picking up a copy of Deliverance and reading it. The movie is pretty good, but the book is much better.:p

[Waluigi]

Originally posted by mactastic
Waluigi, you might be interested in picking up a copy of Deliverance and reading it. The movie is pretty good, but the book is much better.:p

Ok, I'll look into that.

EDIT: Is this the book your talking about? (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/038531387X/qid=1063233646/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_3/102-1332145-6482535?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

To the others:

I'm not trying to defend rape at all. I was just even more grossed out by reading this story then rape stories of women being raped. Maybe I'm being naive, but that was just my gut reaction. I'm also not saying it is less of a crime to rape a women. I do believe if a male was raped by a male, it would be a worse experience then a women being raped by a male, all other factors being equal except the victim's gender. Regardless, rape is a bad bad bad crime, as I have said over and over. I'm just trying to have a discussion about it.

--Waluigi

[Durandal7]

Rape is in my mind the most serious crime one can commit short of murder.

Waluigi, the media has de-sensitized many people to female rape. Regardless of gender it is a heinous and vile crime. Rape is rape.

[shecky]

Originally posted by Waluigi
I do believe if a male was raped by a male, it would be a worse experience then a women being raped by a male, all other factors being equal except the victim's gender. Regardless, rape is a bad bad bad crime, as I have said over and over. I'm just trying to have a discussion about it.

--Waluigi

do you even know how much of an ignorant moron you sound like when you say that?

[mactastic]

You are seeing it through the prism of your own experience as a man. You could probably make a similar judgement if you were a woman if you considered the possibility of pregnancy, the harm it does to your ability to be intimate with any man again, a feeling of being unable to defend yourself because you are smaller etc. And what of women who are sodomized?

I don't think it matters. The sexual experience is but a small part of the trauma of rape. The psychological effects are far more serious, and they last much longer.

[mactastic]

That's the book. Dickey is a masterful poet, his imagery is amazingly powerful.

[Frohickey]

Rape is not about sex. Its about humiliation and loss of control. Doesn't matter if the victim is a man or a woman. The psychological trauma is still as intense.

Thats why I do not (and neither should anyone else) subscribe to the notion that you should be passive when a crime is being committed, be it rape, or robbery. You want to make it as costly as possible for the criminal. In fact, its better if the criminal is dead. Dead criminals can't go on victimizing another victim. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Waluigi]

Originally posted by Durandal7
Waluigi, the media has de-sensitized many people to female rape. Regardless of gender it is a heinous and vile crime. Rape is rape.

Wow, I think you hit it dead-on, with the de-sensitized point.

Originally posted by mactastic

You are seeing it through the prism of your own experience as a man

Also, another true statement. See, this is why I like discussing things. I wouldn't have realized that until you pointed it out. I'm going to go rethink this whole issue. [this may sound sarcastic, but it is not]

Originally posted by shecky
do you even know how much of an ignorant moron you sound like when you say that?

That is exactly what I'm trying not to do. I seriously think rape is horrible. I also think discussing it is a healthy thing to do because we can all [espically me] learn about it. I'm trying to be good, I really don't have bad intentions.

--Waluigi

[Waluigi]

Originally posted by zimv20
rape is a crime of violence. i wouldn't dare argue that hitting a man is worse than hitting a woman.

On a somewhat related note:

Bill Mahr said something about how if you say "women are smarter then men", people will clap, and say 'thats right, thats right!". However, if you said "men are smarter then women", people will thing your a crazy nut case. I guess he was pointing out that it is a stupid PC thing. Again, I'm just trying to discuss this, even if it isn't PC.

--Waluigi

[tazo]

Bill Mahr said something about how if you say "women are smarter then men", people will clap, and say 'thats right, thats right!". However, if you said "men are smarter then women", people will thing your a crazy nut case. I guess he was pointing out that it is a stupid PC thing. Again, I'm just trying to discuss this, even if it isn't PC.

I saw that show and wholeheartedly agree with that statement...

When I first read the thread title, I thought, how can a woman 'force' a man to get an erection...and I was seemingly misinformed....

I like how everyone gangs up on Waluigi for his opinions...

As for the subject of rape being desensitized, maybe it has to do with their being a woman-rape channel, also known as Lifetime, Television for bored lesbian housewives.

Honestly if we want to make rape a serious subject, how about we stop portraying all men as rapists on cable tv.

[zimv20]

Originally posted by Waluigi
I'm trying to be good, I really don't have bad intentions.


given how everyone (myself included) jumped on you, i have to say you handled it in stride.

[Waluigi]

Originally posted by zimv20
given how everyone (myself included) jumped on you, i have to say you handled it in stride.

Thanks!

--Waluigi

[Pinto]

I was listening to talkback radio in England once (Radio 5 Live with Nicky)

They were talking about rape when a older guy called up and claimed that as the thigh muscles were the strongest muscles in the human body it was actually impossible to have sex with a woman who didn't want it.

All she had to do was keep her legs closed.

A deathly silence ensued.....

[Durandal7]

Originally posted by Pinto
I was listening to talkback radio in England once (Radio 5 Live with Nicky)

They were talking about rape when a older guy called up and claimed that as the thigh muscles were the strongest muscles in the human body it was actually impossible to have sex with a woman who didn't want it.

All she had to do was keep her legs closed.

A deathly silence ensued.....

That assumes:
1) It isn't sodomy
2) No drugs (IE Ketamine) were involved
3) That the attackers arms are in fact weaker then the victem's thighs

[Pinto]

Originally posted by Durandal7
That assumes:
1) It isn't sodomy
2) No drugs (IE Ketamine) were involved
3) That the attackers arms are in fact weaker then the victem's thighs

4) And she hasn't got a knife to her throat.

[Daveman Deluxe]

The jaw is the strongest muscle in the body, but that's beside the point.

The fact is that rape is wrong, but so are the characterizations of men as rapists that you'll see on cable telvision. I've known so many women who were frustrated and even pissed off just because a guy liked her, but her feelings didn't reciprocate. Heck, I've been the subject of such (as I'm sure many of us have). My heart bleeds for these women because they've bought into the lie that if a guy likes her, she either has to hate him or like him back.

As for the battle of the sexes, it bothers me that there is a battle in the first place. Men and women are different from one another and I believe that's the whole beauty of the system. I'm sick of women who want to be manly. They should be happy to be women.

I don't mean that to be misognyst. I'm not saying women can't work or be good at "men's work". What I AM saying is that more women should be accepting of the fact that they are women and that's a good thing too. On the other side of the coin, men need to stop repressing women (I believe it still happens today) and truly be egalitarian. Perhaps if men give women the freedom, rights, and privileges they deserve, women won't feel the need to be "manly" and just be happy to be who they are.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by tazo
Honestly if we want to make rape a serious subject, how about we stop portraying all men as rapists on cable tv.

I don't know where you see that problem, but there's an easy solution for it:

stop watching network (cable included) TV. It's a waste of life.

[mactastic]

In case anyone hasn't noticed, the portrayals of "real life" on TV are notoriously inaccurate.

Tazo, what do you think of The Man Show?

[tazo]

Originally posted by mactastic
In case anyone hasn't noticed, the portrayals of "real life" on TV are notoriously inaccurate.

Tazo, what do you think of The Man Show?

I don't care for the show...no matter how many drunk white alcoholics they put on cable tv next to 'girls on trampolines' :rolleyes: Its a dumb show honestly, the chicks are hot, but honestly I cant stand to watch it for more than a few moments.

[mactastic]

Originally posted by tazo
I don't care for the show...no matter how many drunk white alcoholics they put on cable tv next to 'girls on trampolines' :rolleyes: Its a dumb show honestly, the chicks are hot, but honestly I cant stand to watch it for more than a few moments.

Are women (or men) portrayed accurately, in your opinion?

[tazo]

Originally posted by mactastic
Are women (or men) portrayed accurately, in your opinion?

On the man show? Or on cable TV in general? If you mean the man show I feel both are grossly represenative of the extremes...not all men drink beer and act like pigs...while not all women enjoy 'jumping on trampolines'....

As for cable TV i feel there is definitely a slant in favor of women today. Lifetime and Oxygen have been women-only networks for several years, while the so-called Spike TV was just recently established. On a TV talk show, if a guest or someone says "women are smarter than men..." then it is almost always followed by a hoot, or a cackle, or some general feeling of 'hey good for them...' I have yet to ever see someone NOT BOO at a comment of 'men are superior to women' comment on modern day tv. Hell even here on Macrumors any statements made by someone that does not position women as better than men makes the individual a mysogynist.
There's another word people like to throw around, like nazi or communist; something to bolster their flawed, convoluted argument. But I digress...

On cable tv shows, in almost every sitcom, the male is portrayed as stupid, ignorant, at times a womanizer, and almost always portrayed negatively in comparison to the on-screen female role.

If you look at cable tv's programming, you may have to look a bit deeper, however if you do you too will surely see the feminine bias by the media.

And of course no women would be offended by this bias? But they'll be damned if they get a catcall from the sidewalk....atleast without being paid 1.00 on the construction worker's dollar....

[Waluigi]

Originally posted by mactastic
Are women (or men) portrayed accurately, in your opinion?

Well, yes. Our culture has manifested itself into behaving like we see on TV. I can't stand it when young ladies are attracted to guys who physically push women around, and are overall jerks. I also can't stand why guys are attracted to slutty dressing girls. We weren't that way until TV pushed it down our throats as what we should be, and here we are. Unfortunately, we are headed more and more towards what is portrayed on the man show.

--Waluigi

[mactastic]

But virtually all women on TV shows are portrayed as sex objects. You notice there are very few older women working in television? Yet there are lots and lots of sexy young women on TV. Personally I see TV as distorting both sexes pretty equally. Come to think of it, it distorts real life in general. How many people do you know that have lives like Paradise Island? Oh and you do know Maxim is getting ready to launch a channel for men? I hope you are as vehemently against that as you are against the womens channels. But I would have to say I think that your complaining about 2 womens channels is pretty hollow, since the most of the rest rest are for men. Or did you forget about ESPN?

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by Frohickey
Rape is not about sex. Its about humiliation and loss of control. Doesn't matter if the victim is a man or a woman. The psychological trauma is still as intense.

Thats why I do not (and neither should anyone else) subscribe to the notion that you should be passive when a crime is being committed, be it rape, or robbery. You want to make it as costly as possible for the criminal. In fact, its better if the criminal is dead. Dead criminals can't go on victimizing another victim. :mad: :mad: :mad: in other words, get the criminal to kill you so that he has to go to jail longer on the off-chance he gets caught? i'd feel i was getting the short end of ths stick there... no pun intended...

about rape, though, people who believe they can force someone to do anything that they won't willingly do has no business being alive--i'm not condemning the use of force in response to force, but using force because your powers of persuasion suck is unacceptable.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by mactastic
Or did you forget about ESPN? ESPN is for men?

no, it's not. it's for people who like sports. it's not even remotely exclusive to "man sports" like football.

now of course, there are lots of television programs directed at men, more probably that all the shows directed at women on that channel, but there's still no mainstream channels specifically and exclusively directed at men. and TNN comes a lot closer than ESPN, lol.

[mactastic]

Originally posted by shadowfax
ESPN is for men?

no, it's not. it's for people who like sports. it's not even remotely exclusive to "man sports" like football.

now of course, there are lots of television programs directed at men, more probably that all the shows directed at women on that channel, but there's still no mainstream channels specifically and exclusively directed at men. and TNN comes a lot closer than ESPN, lol.

Oh come on, what's the demographic for "The Best Damn Sports Show Period"? You think that's aimed at women? Have you seen the products they advertise? Not for women! Although I'm sure there are women who watch it, just as I'm sure there are men who watch the Lifetime network. It's not the target audience though.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by mactastic
Oh come on, what's the demographic for "The Best Damn Sports Show Period"? You think that's aimed at women? Have you seen the products they advertise? Not for women! Although I'm sure there are women who watch it, just as I'm sure there are men who watch the Lifetime network. It's not the target audience though. are you talking about how they advertise during a football game, or during something more obscure, like a volleyball game or the x-games? i really don't think it's supportable to suggest that the whole channel is directed towards men.

[Taft]

Originally posted by mactastic
Oh come on, what's the demographic for "The Best Damn Sports Show Period"? You think that's aimed at women? Have you seen the products they advertise? Not for women! Although I'm sure there are women who watch it, just as I'm sure there are men who watch the Lifetime network. It's not the target audience though.

Right, and Bravo targets old, rich, art lovers and (now) homosexuals. They really do.

But that doesn't mean they are being un-PC to the groups outside their target demographic, nor does it mean that people like myself (a young, straight, middle class, art liker) can't enjoy their programming.

ESPN is a sports network. Men like sports, generally more than women. Advertisers know this and those trying to target men pay a premium for airtime on ESPN. That doesn't implicate ESPN as a "network for men."

You are right that TV shows damaging portrayals of women, but you can't demonize all networks by using blanket statements. As far as I'm concerned Lifetime is no better or worse than Spike TV, the Man Show or any other male targetting drivel. They are all unrealistic and damaging in their own way. "My totally evil, rapist ex-husband" ranks no higher than "bimbos on trampolines" in my book.

And Bill Mahr has a point about the whole "men are smarter, women are smarter" thing. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who cheers or claps at the statement "women are smarter than men" are idiots. "But its empowering to women!" you might say. I don't care! Its a rediculous statement. Its no more true than "everyone in the south is an uneducated hick."

Women should empower themselves using factual and practical statements and actions. Making broad generalizations and passing them off as conventional wisdom or a newfound "fact" is disingenuous and misleading.

Taft

[mactastic]

Originally posted by Taft
"My totally evil, rapist ex-husband" ranks no higher than "bimbos on trampolines" in my book.

Taft

Nor in mine. I just find it interesting that some people see the TV channels as totally biased towards women because there are 2 special interest channels that cater to them. To me, it looks like the whole rest of the dial caters to the 18-35 male demographic.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by tazo
On a TV talk show, if a guest or someone says "women are smarter than men..." then it is almost always followed by a hoot, or a cackle, or some general feeling of 'hey good for them...'

Generalisations. Examples?

Hell even here on Macrumors any statements made by someone that does not position women as better than men makes the individual a mysogynist.

Examples?

If you look at cable tv's programming, you may have to look a bit deeper, however if you do you too will surely see the feminine bias by the media.

TURN OFF THE ****ING TV ALREADY IF YOU HATE IT SO MUCH!!!

And of course no women would be offended by this bias? But they'll be damned if they get a catcall from the sidewalk....atleast without being paid 1.00 on the construction worker's dollar....

What are you talking about? You've invented a scenario to be sickened by it.

You strike me as bitter and spiteful.
Anyone else get that vibe?

[tazo]

examples of pro-women and anti men statements on tv:

Any talk show on modern tv; women are always better, men are always worse. I saw a promo for a new show coming to UPN as i was flipping channels, the one by Will smith and his wife. The catch int he promo? The guy insults his own intelligence. Yeah....umm repeat that example by about 400 times and you have modern tv.


Examples of guys on this board erroneously being labeled as mysogynistic for their comments:
-mymemory
-royal pineapple
-one other individual who's handle i forgot

TURN OFF THE ****ING TV ALREADY IF YOU HATE IT SO MUCH!!!

I don't hate tv, pseudobrit, I am just intensely frustrated by the irony of women's claims about modern tv.
Read my past posts in this thread for more on that...


You strike me as bitter and spiteful.
Anyone else get that vibe?

Someone get this guy a cookie.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by tazo
examples of pro-women and anti men statements on tv:

Any talk show on modern tv; women are always better, men are always worse. I saw a promo for a new show coming to UPN as i was flipping channels, the one by Will smith and his wife. The catch int he promo? The guy insults his own intelligence. Yeah....umm repeat that example by about 400 times and you have modern tv.

More generalisations with one example.

I've seen more insulting things directed with sleight at women -- commercials in particular, where women are portrayed as the doting motherly type and the dad is portrayed as the hapless dolt. They prey on women's emotions and use cutesy stereotypes to peddle their ****. Madison Avenue, fitting to their nature, calls them "**** commericals." (that's a four-letter, [not the rooster synonym] c-word )

What they do in practice is cover up the fact that in real life, it's usually the other way around. The man is the controlling factor and the descision-maker and the woman is relegated to a supporting role.

Examples of guys on this board erroneously being labeled as mysogynistic for their comments:
-mymemory
-royal pineapple

I recall mymemory's fiasco, and he was way out of line. Perhaps it was down to a language/cultural thing, but it was bizarre nevertheless.

I don't hate tv, pseudobrit, I am just intensely frustrated by the irony of women's claims about modern tv.

Women on TV are stereotyped more than men. That's a bad thing, regardless of who's getting the "dummy" label. Male characters are more dynamic, complex and flexible than their female counterparts.

Someone get this guy a cookie.

Hey, you're the one who seems bitter and angry at something you haven't fully explored.

[mactastic]

Mama keeps our house sparkling like sunshine
Mama keeps our bathroom fresh like the springtime
Mama keeps whites white with the magic
Mama's got the magic of
CLOROX!

Anyone else find that disturbing?

[mactastic]

Tazo, I think what you are upset about is that TV aimed at women has sunk the the same lows that TV for men has, not that TV for women is somehow worse than TV for men.

If you were a woman you would have noticed all the awful portrayals of women, but since you are a man, those slip under your radar. You notice the bad portrayals of men and you get pissed off. Well welcome to the world women live in. And minorities.

You ever watch the old Honeymooners episodes? Yeah where the man threatens his wife with physical abuse? (Of course its a joke but not a very funny one if you think about it.) Or how about the Cleaver Family... Or Father Knows Best... Or Gilligan's Island... the list goes on and on. It's only very recently in the history of TV (and life) that women have been given the opportunity to get down in the mud of crappy television with the men who are already there.

Advocate for better TV, not more politically correctness with your insistence that it's not OK for women to say something unless men can say it too. You are correct that there is a double standard, but it has always been that way. It's just less of a difference now from the days when the standard was women aren't equal to men.

By the way, in both Greek and Rennaisance theater, female parts were played by men. It was assumed women couldn't act.

[Daveman Deluxe]

Originally posted by mactastic
By the way, in both Greek and Rennaisance theater, female parts were played by men. It was assumed women couldn't act.

For a long time, men didn't sing in operas. It still seems silly to me that Emperor Nero is sung by a mezzo-soprano in The Coronation of Poppea.

[XnavxeMiyyep]

Originally posted by mactastic
Anyone else find that disturbing? Not only are those lyrics disturbing, they're incredibly irritating to listen to.:mad:

[tazo]

Originally posted by mactastic
Anyone else find that disturbing?

Well if a guy cleans he is automatically stereotyped as gay.....so maybe the clorox people are homophobes or are stereotyping women :rolleyes:

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by tazo
Well if a guy cleans he is automatically stereotyped as gay.....so maybe the clorox people are homophobes or are stereotyping women :rolleyes:

What the hell world do you come from where a guy who cleans is stereotyped as gay?

Were you raised by TV?

Wait until you have to live on your own -- you're going to be soooooooo gay or live in filth.

[tazo]

Originally posted by pseudobrit
What the hell world do you come from where a guy who cleans is stereotyped as gay?

Were you raised by TV?

Wait until you have to live on your own -- you're going to be soooooooo gay or live in filth.

I was referring to the stereotype that neat, trim, clean people are gay :rolleyes: I myself do not believe that...I am simply stating that there is a stereotype passed around that clean orderly guys are gay. Like i said I myself do not believe that.

no i was not raised on tv. but with the sweet nurturement of cocaine, wild justice, and twelve copies of Al Franken's first book. :rolleyes:

[zimv20]

Originally posted by tazo

no i was not raised on tv. but with the sweet nurturement of cocaine, wild justice, and twelve copies of Al Franken's first book. :rolleyes:

?????

i'm not even sure who's supposed to insulted here

[XnavxeMiyyep]

Originally posted by tazo
Well if a guy cleans he is automatically stereotyped as gay.....so maybe the clorox people are homophobes or are stereotyping women :rolleyes: This advertisement stereotypes women as housewives.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by tazo
I was referring to the stereotype that neat, trim, clean people are gay :rolleyes: I myself do not believe that...I am simply stating that there is a stereotype passed around that clean orderly guys are gay. Like i said I myself do not believe that.

And you got that stereotype from watching too much TV or from friends who watch too much TV. That's not a natural stereotype. I know plenty of very tidy guys who are quite straight and plenty of rotten slobs who are gay.

My dad was the cook of the house (ever since my Mom went back to school to get her teacher's degree when I was about 12) and was always clean and neat. I guess since he doesn't have a beer gut, sit around and drink, watch football while eating pork rinds and beat Mom, he must be gay. :rolleyes:

Or he could have just been in the Army, where he got in the habit of being neat. Or gay...

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by zimv20
?????

i'm not even sure who's supposed to insulted here

Probably us dirty libs. Y'know, 'cause we're all cokeheads and free-love hippies.

[tazo]

i was making reference to current stereotypes. I think its irrelevant where the stereotypes come from, its the fact that they exist is what I was trying to get across.

My dad was the cook of the house (ever since my Mom went back to school to get her teacher's degree when I was about 12) and was always clean and neat. I guess since he doesn't have a beer gut, sit around and drink, watch football while eating pork rinds and beat Mom, he must be gay.

Or he could have just been in the Army, where he got in the habit of being neat. Or gay...

?????

i'm not even sure who's supposed to insulted here

[Ugg]

Originally posted by tazo
Well if a guy cleans he is automatically stereotyped as gay.....so maybe the clorox people are homophobes or are stereotyping women :rolleyes:

I don't know what world you live in but clean and neat guys are a sign of a certain amount of inner discipline. Now if you were to talk about dressing and stereotypes you might have an argument but even that one is disappearing pretty fast.

You spend a lot of time railing against pc-ness but you offer very few solutions to the problem. So, tazo, what is the solution? Or, are you just interested in making as much noise as possible.....

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by pseudobrit
Wait until you have to live on your own -- you're going to be soooooooo gay or live in filth. seriously.

you know, it's funny that the stereotype is that gay people are clean and straight people are dirty. i would have thought that any assumption in these lines would be the other way around. but then there are shows like "queer eye..." has anyone watched that show? i hope you don't have the balls to admit it, 'cos if you do, they should probably be removed...

[Ugg]

Originally posted by shadowfax
seriously.

you know, it's funny that the stereotype is that gay people are clean and straight people are dirty. i would have thought that any assumption in these lines would be the other way around. but then there are shows like "queer eye..." has anyone watched that show? i hope you don't have the balls to admit it, 'cos if you do, they should probably be removed...

I don't quite get your meaining and I don't know if I should be offended by it or not. Not being a couch potato, I'm spared from your suggestion but what is your point?

[Sayhey]

Originally posted by shadowfax
seriously.

you know, it's funny that the stereotype is that gay people are clean and straight people are dirty. i would have thought that any assumption in these lines would be the other way around. but then there are shows like "queer eye..." has anyone watched that show? i hope you don't have the balls to admit it, 'cos if you do, they should probably be removed...

shadowfax, I've seen it and have no intention of having my testicles removed. I take it the idea of the show makes you uncomfortable. I must admit I've only seen the show once, but the best part of the show is the straight guys who have to overcome their homophobia. It was funny and dealt with all kinds of stereotypes. Not a bad combination for a prime time tv show.

[zimv20]

Originally posted by shadowfax
but then there are shows like "queer eye..." has anyone watched that show? i hope you don't have the balls to admit it, 'cos if you do, they should probably be removed...

i need to see it. i hear one of my old college friends is the food/wine guy.

[tazo]

Originally posted by Ugg
I don't know what world you live in but clean and neat guys are a sign of a certain amount of inner discipline. Now if you were to talk about dressing and stereotypes you might have an argument but even that one is disappearing pretty fast.

You spend a lot of time railing against pc-ness but you offer very few solutions to the problem. So, tazo, what is the solution? Or, are you just interested in making as much noise as possible.....

My solution is that we should not have these stereotypes like gay people are always clean and neat.

How can I myself stop it? I cannot, but i can make attempts within my own circumstances to eradicate that stereotype.

Which leads me to my question, what are you doing?

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by Sayhey
shadowfax, I've seen it and have no intention of having my testicles removed. I take it the idea of the show makes you uncomfortable. I must admit I've only seen the show once, but the best part of the show is the straight guys who have to overcome their homophobia. It was funny and dealt with all kinds of stereotypes. Not a bad combination for a prime time tv show. maybe we can just take one ;)

i'm just offended by the fact that they use the slur, "queer," as well as play off a number of stereotypes right in the ad for the program, like the idea that straight guys don't know how to treat women, but gay guys do, and that straight guys are phillistines but gay guys are cultured connoisseurs of everything classy...

i stay away from things that go out of their way to insult my gender and sexual orientation just in the advertisement.

ugg: no offense meant, it was just a joke. though if any should be taken, it's broad and sweeping.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by tazo
My solution is that we should not have these stereotypes like gay people are always clean and neat.

How can I myself stop it? I cannot, but i can make attempts within my own circumstances to eradicate that stereotype.

Which leads me to my question, what are you doing? what kind of attempts do you make?

[tazo]

Originally posted by shadowfax
what kind of attempts do you make?

I try my best not to perpetuate stereotypes. I also try and make fun of people who stereotype others. Hell I even make fun of stereotypes by insulting myself. As someone else on MR said in relationship to using the term '******', a word is nothing without the power behind it. If you remove the power, the word is nothing. I myself am trying to remove the power of these stereotypes in my own life.

Allow me to reiterate my question: What are you doing?

i'm just offended by the fact that they use the slur, "queer," as well as play off a number of stereotypes right in the ad for the program, like the idea that straight guys don't know how to treat women, but gay guys do, and that straight guys are phillistines but gay guys are cultured connoisseurs of everything classy...


I agree. I think it is horrible that gay people actually participate in that show [queer eye]. You would think with all the stereotypes, not even necessarily positive ones, that they would not want to participate. Not only is this hypocritical, but I agree with shadowfax that I don't appreciate being classified as an uncultured swine for being a straight male.

[Rower_CPU]

Wait, I thought you said you were for taking the power out of words...

Doesn't the gay community taking back the word "queer" constitute them taking the power to harm out of it?

[Sayhey]

shadowfax and tazo, I don't want to take on the position of the defender of the show. However, for the one show I saw, it repeatedly made the same points about stereotypes that you two are objecting to. On top of that it did it with a lot of humor. My only recommendation is to watch the show and judge for yourselves.

[tazo]

Originally posted by Sayhey
shadowfax and tazo, I don't want to take on the position of the defender of the show. However, for the one show I saw, it repeatedly made the same points about stereotypes that you two are objecting to. On top of that it did it with a lot of humor. My only recommendation is to watch the show and judge for yourselves.

I have seen the show. The only thing it does is to reinforce the stereotypes all ready out there.

[mactastic]

Originally posted by tazo
I have seen the show. The only thing it does is to reinforce the stereotypes all ready out there.

Ok, I'll buy your objection to stereotyping people on TV. So what other shows do you find offensive on that basis? There are plenty. And how about a few shows that you think are breaking stereotypes? Are there any?

[Daveman Deluxe]

mactastic:

How about Will and Grace? Sure, there's Jack who does live out the stereotype, but Will is a well-adjusted professional who is an all-around good dude, and he's gay.

[Sayhey]

Originally posted by tazo
I have seen the show. The only thing it does is to reinforce the stereotypes all ready out there.

fair enough, tazo. at least, if you've seen it you have an informed opinion.

[mactastic]

Originally posted by Daveman Deluxe
mactastic:

How about Will and Grace? Sure, there's Jack who does live out the stereotype, but Will is a well-adjusted professional who is an all-around good dude, and he's gay.

Well, Will and Grace does show homosexuals in a friendly light. But I thought that both Will and Jack were opposite stereotypes of gay men. Jack is the flamboyant in-your-face kind of gay, and Will is the reserved uncomfortable-about-being-gay type. Both of them play the fashionable card - how many episodes revolved around shopping for clothes? Plus Jack comes off as a slut, as does Grace, which is more stereotyping IMHO (ie. gay men, and single women always want sex.)

Not that I don't like the show, but I don't see it as being stereotype-free.

[tazo]

Originally posted by mactastic
Ok, I'll buy your objection to stereotyping people on TV. So what other shows do you find offensive on that basis? There are plenty. And how about a few shows that you think are breaking stereotypes? Are there any?

I cannot name one in particular, but one in which the man stays at home and the woman works, i believe there are a few shows like that.

[mactastic]

Originally posted by tazo
I cannot name one in particular, but one in which the man stays at home and the woman works, i believe there are a few shows like that.

That's because all TV is based on exploiting stereotypes. In fact most literature, movies, plays etc. use stereotypes as the vehicle for humor, drama etc. TV is just the worst at showing character depth beyond the stereotypes.

Sopranos? Stereotype of Italian gangsters. Man Show? Stereotypical jock humor. South Park? They abuse just about every stereotype they can think of. Simpsons? They TRY to be stereotypical... every single character is a stereotype. Queer Eye? You guessed it.

Getting upset at stereotypes is a losing proposition. You are only upset because it's a stereotype you happen to find repulsive.

[shadowfax]

wait, i think we may have taken things to the extreme.

the fact that a show has someone in a "stereotypical" role doesn't mean that the show is reinforcing that stereotype. it could just be a coincidence of the storyline, or it could be an element included to make fun of that stereotype, like in seinfeld: George Kostanza is the stereotypical middle-aged, worthless poser. can't get girls, can't get a job. or if he does, he's always scheming about how to take advantage of it.

oh no, the show is reinforcing stereotypes!

to actually reinforce stereotypes you have to have something that implies the universality of them. this could be having only people of one stereotype in a show, or the characters could make comments within the dialogue about the validity of a stereotype--"Oh, julie, don't be silly! you can't date girls! you're not a man!" or alternately, the very title of a show could reinforce a stereotype. like a show founded on the idea that straights need help with women/culture from gays. whatever the show may do to "tear down" certain stereotypes, both the title and the advertisements serve to strongly reinforce the stereotype.

edit: mactastic: there has to be a differentiation between making fun of/ridiculing stereotypes and propagating them. nazi propaganda is not funny. The Producers (Springtime for Hitler) is.

[tazo]

Originally posted by shadowfax
...the very title of a show could reinforce a stereotype. like a show founded on the idea that straights need help with women/culture from gays. whatever the show may do to "tear down" certain stereotypes, both the title and the advertisements serve to strongly reinforce the stereotype.

Can i get a halleluja??? ;)

[mactastic]

Good shows (like Seinfeld, Cheers, All in the Family etc.) move beyond the stereotypes, but still use them. Seinfeld had tons of Jewish stereotype humor in it. Along with lots of bachelor/bachelorette humor as well. How about all the stereotypical bosses George or Elaine had? Or the angry-New Yorker stereotypes?

Seinfeld was able to move beyond the stereotypes they were based on because the characters had depth, but they were not dynamic (ie. different at the end that they were at the beginning), meaning they had changed from their stereotypical beginnings and become individuals over time. Serial shows are like that, the characters rarely change, occasionally there is a marriage or a breakup or a move or something, but nothing earthshaking like there is in a movie or book oftentimes.

[mactastic]

Originally posted by tazo
Can i get a halleluja??? ;)

Halleluja. Now lets hear you condemn all those other TV shows that exploit straight stereotypes.

I can't help feeling like you think The Man Show is ok, while Queer Eye is not.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by mactastic
Good shows (like Seinfeld, Cheers, All in the Family etc.) move beyond the stereotypes, but still use them. Seinfeld had tons of Jewish stereotype humor in it. Along with lots of bachelor/bachelorette humor as well. How about all the stereotypical bosses George or Elaine had? Or the angry-New Yorker stereotypes?

Seinfeld was able to move beyond the stereotypes they were based on because the characters had depth, but they were not dynamic (ie. different at the end that they were at the beginning), meaning they had changed from their stereotypical beginnings and become individuals over time. Serial shows are like that, the characters rarely change, occasionally there is a marriage or a breakup or a move or something, but nothing earthshaking like there is in a movie or book oftentimes. once again, there's a difference between making a joke about stereotypes and seriously positing them as true. look at the role of women in TV in the 1950s and 1960s and so on. it reinforced stereotypes, rather than making fun of them. shows were full of women, but none of them had key roles, or if they did, they didn't involve any implication that the woman had anything resembling a brain. this isn't a joke, it actually derives from a stereotype that people took seriously, and does nothing but aid it. you can't just say that because shows involve humor about stereotypes all the time, and that drama and literature often[/]i or [i]commonly play off stereotypes, that any piece of drama that has anything to do with stereotypes can't be bad.

the water is muddy, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to assert anything about it.

[mactastic]

Originally posted by shadowfax
once again, there's a difference between making a joke about stereotypes and seriously positing them as true. look at the role of women in TV in the 1950s and 1960s and so on. it reinforced stereotypes, rather than making fun of them. shows were full of women, but none of them had key roles, or if they did, they didn't involve any implication that the woman had anything resembling a brain. this isn't a joke, it actually derives from a stereotype that people took seriously, and does nothing but aid it. you can't just say that because shows involve humor about stereotypes all the time, and that drama and literature often[/]i or [i]commonly play off stereotypes, that any piece of drama that has anything to do with stereotypes can't be bad.

the water is muddy, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to assert anything about it.

I'm with you. I have no problem with shows using stereotypes, and I judge shows for quality based on other things besides whether or not they break stereotypical molds. But once again, my point is that there is a whole lot of TV out there that negatively reinforces stereotypes, yet some people in here seem to only be harping on the the Queer Eye show for some reason. If we are going to condemn one show for that, lets round out that issue and say that it is not an issue of the gay stereotype that is upsetting, it is the blatant exploitation of those stereotypes by networks, and that it happens across all the gender/racial/sexual spectrum.

[tazo]

Originally posted by mactastic
Halleluja. Now lets hear you condemn all those other TV shows that exploit straight stereotypes.

I can't help feeling like you think The Man Show is ok, while Queer Eye is not.

Originally posted by tazo
I don't care for the show...no matter how many drunk white alcoholics they put on cable tv next to 'girls on trampolines' :rolleyes: Its a dumb show honestly, the chicks are hot, but honestly I cant stand to watch it for more than a few moments.

I already gave my feelings on the manshow, mactastic.

[mactastic]

Originally posted by tazo
I already gave my feelings on the manshow, mactastic.

Good start. There's many, many more TV shows I'd think you would condem as well. The new Whoopi show seems to be all about stereotypes. MTV... well, I won't even go there. Good to know we've got you on the case against stereotypes.:p

[tazo]

Originally posted by mactastic
Good start. There's many, many more TV shows I'd think you would condem as well. The new Whoopi show seems to be all about stereotypes. MTV... well, I won't even go there. Good to know we've got you on the case against stereotypes.:p

I have seen previews for the whoopi show and already I can tell two things: (1) that it will be crap because any show or movie for that matter that takes one black individual and one white one and expects them to some how 'make emotional amends' is doomed to fail. Every cop movie is like this, i.e. rush hour, although there are many more; and (two) that the show will not deal whatsoever with eradicating stereotypes, it [the show] will simply perpetuate them further.

MTV is sort of in an identity crisis in that it doesnt know wtf it wants to do with its life
:D They are marketing a lot of shows towards adults, but at the same time trying to get in with the teens who prefer say comedy central and ermm hbo :p

The point is that I dislike shows that do not 'deal' with stereotypes, or shows that perpetuate and inflame stereotypes further.

My 2.5 cents.

-tazo

[yamabushi]

Stereotypes are used on television because they can be sources of humor and because it just takes too many episodes to explain to the audience how a character is really a complicted human being. In other words, they might turn the channel before they get to know what the show is about.

I have been thinking about the original topic and I remember reading reports that male victims of rape seldom report it. The suggestion of that article was that male victims report rape even less often than female victims do. I am curious as to why this might be the case.

Perhaps it has to do with the tendency to blame the victim. A male victim might fear the response they would get because of the notion that men are stronger and supposed to be able to take care of themselves in a fight.

[ColoJohnBoy]

One of the things that bothers me about this post is the fact that the distinction is made "straight man". I'm gay, and I'm not going to like it if some guy, gay or straight or eunich, tries to rape me. Just because I might find the sex pleasureable, doesn't mean the experience is any less traumatizing. There are people, men and women, that develop severe emotional issues because when they were raped or molested they found the act pleasureable.

Don't make distinctions, especially if they're intentional. Rape is wrong. No matter the circumstances, no matter the parties involved, it is wrong.

[rainman::|:|]

well i am really amazed. i can't believe anyone in today's day and age would say that a man being raped is worse than a woman being raped. that is wrong on so many levels, i'm ashamed and embarassed for the author of said statement.

as to the gay stereotype. it is indeed humiliating to see the stereotype played on Queer Eye and Boy meets Boy (not to mention will & grace), unfortunately too many people (straight AND gay) seem to think that this is how gay people act.

unfortunately, as we saw in the black and feminist movements, stereotypes are the first thing to be accepted into the media and the arts... but we can expect this stereotype to erode as people see through it.

we, as gay people, are faced with the question: acceptance as a derrogatory stereotype, or no acceptance at all? i think you can see how it happens that gay people do things like Queer Eye.

i won't get into the reclaiming of words, except to say: you people labeled us with these names in hate and fear. you can't possible expect us to allow those sentiments to remain with the words?

pnw

[ColoJohnBoy]

Originally posted by Waluigi
Daytona Man Raped In Girlfriend's Car (http://www.local6.com/news/2468055/detail.html)

Very touchy subject: rape. I've heard a lot of horror stories, where women have been raped. While most of those cases are very disturbing, when a straight male gets raped, I think that it is worse. I'm not saying rape is good, it is a horrible crime. I'm not saying raping a women is in any way shape or form acceptable. I'm just saying that when women have sex, the man performs the same act as they would in a rape(in a totally different manner, yes, I know, RAPE IS BAD, I'm not justifying it).

However, if a man rapes a straight man, it is a totally different situation. When men have sex with women, they don't have anything penetrating up their butt, or have to swallow another guy's excrements. They are forced to do or receive something they will never do, which makes it a worse crime.

If possible, hopefully we can have an intelligent, discussion on this. If I have offended anyone, I'm very sorry. I'm not trying to hurt any feelings. Any rape is a horrible crime. I just think that male rape is worse then female rape.

I doubt you would intentionally hurt anyone's feelings or offend anyone with your post. But by the looks of it, you've offended most everyone that read your post.

Quite frankly, it's upsetting that people still feel this way. I'm not for "special treatment" or "special rights" for any group. I am for EQUAL rights and EQUAL treatment of all people. There can be no differentiation in such crimes. What must be determined is the motivation in the crime, and its effects. If a man or woman rapes another man or woman, whether that person is gay or straight, the crime is still rape and is just as heinous.

I apologize if my comments aren't completely articulate. But this post has been grating me more and more since I read it.

[Durandal7]

The whole "gender competition" idea has always nauseated me. There is nothing that pisses me off more then a male chauvinist or an extreme feminist.

Women are generally portrayed as airheads who are good only for cooking and cleaning and derive all worldly pleasure from buying expensive shoes.

Men are generally portrayed as sex-obsessed slobs who do nothing but get drunk and go to rowdy sports parties.

[yamabushi]

I think rape is equally wrong regardless of the genders and sexual orientations involved. The aspects of each case do make them different however. The reactions of the communities can have profound affects on the lives of the victims as well as the rapists.

To expand the idea further, all aspects of both victim and rapist become relevant, even if they should not be relevant. One hundred years ago in the U.S. if the alleged rapist was a black male and the alleged victim a white female, the man would be lucky to survive the trial much less expect a fair judgement. In the case of a white male and a black female during the same time period, the case would probably not even go to court.

While legal justice has improved over time, we still carry prejudices that strongly influence our reactions to rape cases. I would suggest that this applies to our ideas about gender roles and sexual preferences as well. This applies not only to the accused, but also to the victim.