Vista > Leopard

[Cromulent]

Just look at the security features it implements.

[psychofreak]

http://globalnerdy.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/bill-gates-notel-room-cancel-or-allow.jpg

[PlaceofDis]

that is priceless.

[ezkimo]

http://globalnerdy.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/bill-gates-notel-room-cancel-or-allow.jpg

How did Bill end up on the set of Twin Peaks?

[rdowns]

Reason # 432 why I upgraded my work laptop from Vista back to XP.

[mkrishnan]

It's a good thing Vista has full keyboard access. Cuz how are you supposed to click allow? :D

[yg17]

http://globalnerdy.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/bill-gates-notel-room-cancel-or-allow.jpg

That was an image I did not want in my head

It's a good thing Vista has full keyboard access. Cuz how are you supposed to click allow? :D

Nah, there's probably a "Windows is trying to use a keyboard, cancel or allow" dialog waiting right behind it :D

[mcarnes]

Sigh. Allow.

[Sesshi]

UAC prompts me in the same way as Tiger when I'm running in User mode. And unlike XP (this was a major problem I had with it), a properly executed OS like Vista or OSX doesn't require me to run in admin mode. I don't really get the problems moaned about by the blogging morons.

[CalBoy]

Just look at the security features it implements.
http://att.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89717&d=1193871686


Ahh, yet another one of Vista's great accomplishments. :rolleyes:

[carbonmotion]

Ahh, yet another one of Vista's great accomplishments. :rolleyes:

As fun as it is to laugh at the competition, I have no problems with Vista what so ever on my HP workstation at work. Once you tweak all your settings to your specifications, it runs fine just like any other modern operating system. In fact, because Leopard is still a few updates away from running well, I'd dare say Vista actually has an edge on Leopard at present.

[TBi]

UAC prompts me in the same way as Tiger when I'm running in User mode. And unlike XP (this was a major problem I had with it), a properly executed OS like Vista or OSX doesn't require me to run in admin mode. I don't really get the problems moaned about by the blogging morons.

Yes it does prompt you the same way, just a lot more than OSX does. I've never been asked for higher privileges when i delete a file from an external drive in OSX, and definately not every time i try to delete a file!

UAC is good in theory, it just comes up too often with no way to disable it in some instances. So it's either all on or all off. All on is too annoying so I had to turn it all off.

Another example, I don't want to click a damn UAC box for just looking at my network settings. I kind of understand having it if you CHANGE something but then again I don't want it to ask me if I change it.

[JNB]

Client handed me a Vista laptop to use onsite this week (easier than the nonsense their IT Dept demands to bring an "alien" computer onto their net).

After two days with it? Just shoot me. Please.

[Iscariot]

As fun as it is to laugh at the competition, I have no problems with Vista what so ever on my HP workstation at work. Once you tweak all your settings to your specifications, it runs fine just like any other modern operating system. In fact, because Leopard is still a few updates away from running well, I'd dare say Vista actually has an edge on Leopard at present.

You know what, you're right. It's just like how I bought that used car. Sure, I needed to tweak it with a new engine, detailing, rims, a paint job and a new interior, but after that it was fine. Just like a new car.

[carbonmotion]

You know what, you're right. It's just like how I bought that used car. Sure, I needed to tweak it with a new engine, detailing, rims, a paint job and a new interior, but after that it was fine. Just like a new car.

I may not have the most demanding tasks for my office workstation computer (HP C2D + 2GB Ram + 20" LCD). I use MS Office 07, the Adobe Acrobat Pro, video conferencing software, encrypted IM software, and other misc. software for a paperless office. On any give day, I have about 25 different applications open and working in conjunction. It works just as fine as any Mac for the same tasks, I don't feel particularly burdened, annoyed, or handicapped by my pc than my mac. Each has its own strengths and weaknesses and perform similarly on baseline tasks (video conferencing, pdf creation, office 2007, web browsing).

For most office environments with similar needs to mine company's, I see no reason why Leopard would be than Vista. In fact if anything, HP + Vista would be better cause of a better price/ power ratio.

[Iscariot]

I may not have the most demanding tasks for my office workstation computer (HP C2D + 2GB Ram + 20" LCD). I use MS Office 07, the Adobe Acrobat Pro, video conferencing software, encrypted IM software, and other misc. software for a paperless office. On any give day, I have about 25 different applications open and working in conjunction. It works just as fine as any Mac for the same tasks, I don't feel particularly burdened, annoyed, or handicapped by my pc than my mac. Each has its own strengths and weaknesses and perform similarly on baseline tasks (video conferencing, pdf creation, office 2007, web browsing).

For most office environments with similar needs to mine company's, I see no reason why Leopard would be than Vista. In fact if anything, HP + Vista would be better cause of a better price/ power ratio.

Well, the editor of PC magazine would disagree with you greatly. He resigned in part over his frustrations with the litany of outstanding problems with Vista nine months after release. Slow adoption, Microsoft's decision to allow OEMs to sell XP for another six months, continued application compatability issues, the list of problems goes on. Vista may have an 'edge' on Leopard at the moment, as you say, but it's also got almost a year on it's release. It should have a lot more of an edge than it does.

But, nonetheless, the point I was making wasn't about the reliability of the OS, but the point you yourself made. Your PC ran fine, after all the tweaking you did. The point was the amount of work you have to put in -- or system administrators have to put in -- under the hood, just to get things running reasonably. Which is a big contributing factor as to why Vista hasn't taken off. Vista doesn't really offer any significant productivity value over XP, and you lose substantial productivity in the difficult adoption phase.

[Sesshi]

Yes it does prompt you the same way, just a lot more than OSX does. I've never been asked for higher privileges when i delete a file from an external drive in OSX, and definately not every time i try to delete a file!

UAC is good in theory, it just comes up too often with no way to disable it in some instances. So it's either all on or all off. All on is too annoying so I had to turn it all off.

Another example, I don't want to click a damn UAC box for just looking at my network settings. I kind of understand having it if you CHANGE something but then again I don't want it to ask me if I change it.

Something is not right there - I've never been asked for elevated privileges when I've been deleting files I should be, if you see what I mean.

I'm not really a tweaker. If it doesn't work out of the box after an initial proper setting up, I don't use it. Which is why I haven't got a machine that's been upgraded to Vista, and I won't have a machine that's been upgraded to Leopard.

With Vista, like Ubuntu (and like Leopard from now), I sat on the OS on a dedicated machine for a while before deciding what to do. Undoubtedly the driver problems with Vista were a major problem, and that's why I didn't move to Vista on most of the systems I use until the latter half of this year. I didn't understand from the changes in the networking and display architecture why so many manufacturers dragged their feet over releasing stable drivers (or support at all). But that's largely gone now and I notice that in general, driver writers are doing much more in the way of the usual bugfixes than "look, this bit actually works now".

[carbonmotion]

Well, the editor of PC magazine would disagree with you greatly. He resigned in part over his frustrations with the litany of outstanding problems with Vista nine months after release.

"McCracken, reached Wednesday evening, confirmed that he resigned after 12 years at the magazine and 16 years at publisher International Data Group, over disagreements with management. He declined to comment on the nature of those disagreements.

But three sources, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, told CNET News.com that McCracken informed staffers in an afternoon meeting Wednesday that he decided to resign because Colin Crawford, senior vice president, online, at IDG Communications, was pressuring him to avoid stories that were critical of major advertisers.

Wired News reported Wednesday evening that McCracken quit after Crawford killed a draft story titled "Ten Things We Hate About Apple."
-CNET.com

But, nonetheless, the point I was making wasn't about the reliability of the OS, but the point you yourself made. Your PC ran fine, after all the tweaking you did. The point was the amount of work you have to put in -- or system administrators have to put in -- under the hood, just to get things running reasonably. Which is a big contributing factor as to why Vista hasn't taken off. Vista doesn't really offer any significant productivity value over XP, and you lose substantial productivity in the difficult adoption phase.

Change your wallpaper, change the windows theme, adjust your dock size, change your screen saver, adjust your lcd brightness. That's most of what I did by the ways of tweaking. It the same for vista as it is for leopard.

[killerrobot]

This one in OSX still bugs the hell out of me - I mean I put in the trash, and then I still have to delete it, and then it asks me if I'm sure about it. Wow.
That's one step worse than my wife reminding me to take out the trash.
You'd think with TM that would be really redundant because if you delete by accident you've got an hourly back-up of the file.

[iKwick7]

That was an image I did not want in my head



Nah, there's probably a "Windows is trying to use a keyboard, cancel or allow" dialog waiting right behind it :D

It's a never ending cycle!

[PlaceofDis]

This one in OSX still bugs the hell out of me - I mean I put in the trash, and then I still have to delete it, and then it asks me if I'm sure about it. Wow.
That's one step worse than my wife reminding me to take out the trash.
You'd think with TM that would be really redundant because if you delete by accident you've got an hourly back-up of the file.

Finder>Preferences>Advanced>Uncheck: "Show warning before emptying Trash"

[idyll]

killerrobot:

you know, that doesn't bug me at all. what does bug me is the fact that i can't just delete a single item or some of the items in the trash, while keeping the others.

[killerrobot]

Finder>Preferences>Advanced>Uncheck: "Show warning before emptying Trash"

Hmm... guess I should've just known that one. :o

Also, been getting this all the time now in Leopard for everything I install off the net - don´t remember it ever doing this in Tiger.

[Eraserhead]

Also, been getting this all the time now in Leopard for everything I install off the net - don´t remember it ever doing this in Tiger.

Its a new feature.

[killerrobot]

Its a new feature.

They did they steal it from Vista??? :eek:

[Eraserhead]

They did they steal it from Vista??? :eek:

:shrug: the main way of stopping Malware it to stop people being morons, i.e. would you let a dodgy guy to look around your house if you didn't trust him?

[iMouse]

It does wonderful things like telling me when I should upgrade my malware app for maximum effectiveness!

(Details on what VirusRanger can do for you too are listed here! http://www.emsisoft.com/en/malware/?Adware.Win32.VirusRanger) ;-)

[psychofreak]

:shrug: the main way of stopping Malware it to stop people being morons, i.e. would you let a dodgy guy to look around your house if you didn't trust him?

Its a pity there are so many things to cater to people new to computers, with no way to turn them off...

[killerrobot]

:shrug: the main way of stopping Malware it to stop people being morons, i.e. would you let a dodgy guy to look around your house if you didn't trust him?

Isn't this what this whole post is about, that Vista treats its users like morons? So what does Leopard do now?

EDIT: BTW, what was the last piece of malware that got installed on OSX?

[psychofreak]

Isn't this what this whole post is about, that Vista treats its users like morons? So what does Leopard do now?

At least in Vista you can turn off the Cancel Or Allow messages, OSX has so many switchers coming, Apple decided they need extra anti-stupid security (though you can still rename the Home folder) but as usual, there is nothing to stop those irritating messages...

[Virgil-TB2]

UAC prompts me in the same way as Tiger when I'm running in User mode. And unlike XP (this was a major problem I had with it), a properly executed OS like Vista or OSX doesn't require me to run in admin mode. I don't really get the problems moaned about by the blogging morons.The UAC in Vista is not really the same as authenticating in OS-X at all though.

The UAC just asks if it's okay to do "X" it's not really a security feature, it just looks like a security feature. The authentication in OS-X doesn't bother you unless it's a serious security issue, then it won't do squat until you prove that you are admin. That's how a security feature is supposed to work.

The post that started this thread is a perfect example.

The UAC is getting in the way of a simple thing like a user plugging in a mouse. A mouse is not a security risk, but even if it was some kind of uber-secret "spy mouse" that sucked all the data out of your system, if you click the "allow" button it goes right ahead and does that anyway. :confused: How is that more secure?

Their tag-line should be:

"Microsoft's UAC - Useless for security, but able to get in your way more effectively than real security." :p

[killerrobot]

OSX has so many switchers coming, Apple decided they need extra anti-stupid security

I never thought of it that way. :)
Not sure if this would matter or not, but its odd that OSX doesn't prompt you when you install it, it prompts you after its installed and you try to launch the application. That seems kind of odd to me.

BTW I have no problem with Vista and no problem with Leopard. I do have problems when someone wants to criticize one without looking at the other's flaws though -- which I why I was bringing up these personal problems I see with Leopard.

[Iscariot]

"McCracken, reached Wednesday evening, confirmed that he resigned after 12 years at the magazine and 16 years at publisher International Data Group, over disagreements with management. He declined to comment on the nature of those disagreements.

But three sources, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, told CNET News.com that McCracken informed staffers in an afternoon meeting Wednesday that he decided to resign because Colin Crawford, senior vice president, online, at IDG Communications, was pressuring him to avoid stories that were critical of major advertisers.

Wired News reported Wednesday evening that McCracken quit after Crawford killed a draft story titled "Ten Things We Hate About Apple."
-CNET.com


Read his final editorial. He bashes Vista and then quips about switching to Linux.


Change your wallpaper, change the windows theme, adjust your dock size, change your screen saver, adjust your lcd brightness. That's most of what I did by the ways of tweaking. It the same for vista as it is for leopard.

I told my system administrator at work that. I asked him why we haven't switched to Vista... it must just be a matter of switching wallpapers and adjusting drivers, right? He just stared at me dumbfounded and told me to "get back to work".

I'm not saying Vista is a "bad" operating system, but that ease of adoption and the foot-dragging of third party support has made for a very unpleasant turnover in many cases (if, for example, you use certain third party software or have a complex network). I don't even agree that minimal tweaking is required for home users, considering how even some basic things like some of the free games on Steam won't run, and a lot of older peripherals won't either. Vista just doesn't have the built in compatibility to run a lot of third-party software and hardware, and aren't offering a basic or work-around solution. Unless you're upgrading everything with your OS purchase, you're going to run into some headaches, and nearly a year out of the gate I just don't think that makes for a "good" OS.

[maxrobertson]

UAC prompts me in the same way as Tiger when I'm running in User mode. And unlike XP (this was a major problem I had with it), a properly executed OS like Vista or OSX doesn't require me to run in admin mode. I don't really get the problems moaned about by the blogging morons.

How do you not get the same problems as everyone else? I've used a friend's Vista laptop and it prompts you all the time. I don't understand how on forums there's always someone who seems to avoid the problems that are just part of the OS.


(though you can still rename the Home folder) but as usual, there is nothing to stop those irritating messages...


That's a really good point. I think they do need to focus on little things like that. I mean, I would never understand why a Windows user would think they could rename that folder, when you couldn't even try it on a PC (In use!) but something like that is inexcusable.

[stcanard]

Its a pity there are so many things to cater to people new to computers, with no way to turn them off...

I assume there must be a way to designate "this is a safe app, I trust it" an turn those messages off.

This message is actually quite a good thing -- it stops the "stealth execution" attack vector -- where you download what you think is a document, have Safari automatically open it, and then it runs without a main window or indication that it is hosing your system, and can piggyback on another privilege escalation request.

Having a window pop up saying "Application <X> is an untrusted application, are you sure you want to let it run?" may be the only indication you get.

Couple that with the Code Signing (http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/mac-os-x-10-5.ars/11) that eliminates the need for those messages saying "this has changed, do you want to authorize it again?" and what you have is a system that over the long run reduces the number of prompts and messages, while nicely concentrating on the actual danger point.

I'd consider that a good thing ... enhanced security, while simplifying the process.

Incidentally that warning is triggerred by the com.apple.quarantine metadata that is now added, its a nice example of how arbitrary metadata can be used to track information.

[psychofreak]

I assume there must be a way to designate "this is a safe app, I trust it" an turn those messages off.


It happens only once with each app you install. I only download from trusted sources, so I am happy without it...

[stcanard]

It happens only once with each app you install. I only download from trusted sources, so I am happy without it...

Then you can take solace in the fact that even if this is annoying, the total number of prompts you will get over the life of an app will be less ... it's still a net gain for you :)

[Sesshi]

How do you not get the same problems as everyone else? I've used a friend's Vista laptop and it prompts you all the time. I don't understand how on forums there's always someone who seems to avoid the problems that are just part of the OS.



That's a really good point. I think they do need to focus on little things like that. I mean, I would never understand why a Windows user would think they could rename that folder, when you couldn't even try it on a PC (In use!) but something like that is inexcusable.

First, I work smart - part of which is that I don't fully trust myself either on the Mac or the PC. Which is why I give myself standard user rights on both platforms. The architecture of both Vista and OSX means that you should not, under normal circumstances need to give yourself administrative access.

Once you're working in this mode, the prompts for OSX and Vista are not wholly dissimilar.

It's not a 'problem of the OS' per se. It's knowing how to use it. True, OSX makes it a little less of a no-brainer, but requiring less neurons to use / understand a certain process was never an attraction for me.

[TBi]

First, I work smart - part of which is that I don't fully trust myself either on the Mac or the PC. Which is why I give myself standard user rights on both platforms. The architecture of both Vista and OSX means that you should not, under normal circumstances need to give yourself administrative access.

Once you're working in this mode, the prompts for OSX and Vista are not wholly dissimilar.

Restricting yourself like that is good practive. Less chance of doing something you shouldn't or the computer doing something it shouldn't.

However on Vista there are too many UAC prompts. I can handle the amount of prompts that OSX gives me, but Vista just started to get annoying. I don't want to click accept three times just to delete a file on my external drive. I don't want to click accept to look at my network settings. What's worse is that you click accept to look at the network settings and then you get another UAC prompt when you change them!

If i could disable some of the prompts i'd turn UAC back on, but until then it is staying off. They will probably perfect it over time.

However i do think vista is a nice OS. The more i use it, the more i find XP more limiting. From a pure performance standpoint XP wins hands down, but Vista is a nicer experience (when you turn UAC off).

[tzuckersim]

ugh. i've had so much problems with PC in the past. if it doesn't work right out of the box for me then its just not worth it

[zakatov]

This one in OSX still bugs the hell out of me - I mean I put in the trash, and then I still have to delete it, and then it asks me if I'm sure about it. Wow.
That's one step worse than my wife reminding me to take out the trash.
You'd think with TM that would be really redundant because if you delete by accident you've got an hourly back-up of the file.

Then just uncheck this:

http://img456.imageshack.us/img456/8436/picture1nj1.png