My Official Review:

[ZiggyPastorius]

I know I posted a topic kind of like this in my "Trent Has Let Me Down," thread. However, as I promised, I have listened to the whole Saul Williams album that was just released and here is my OFFICIAL review, rather than just my few-song impression.

(P.S. This is copied from something I already posted elsewhere, so if anything doesn't apply to this forum specifically, disregard it, I'm lazy lol)

The Inevitable Rise and Liberation of Niggy Tardust

Five Star Songs: One
Four Star Songs: Two
Three Star Songs: One
Two Star Songs: Three
One Star Songs: Eight

Overall Rating: 2

While this album has a slight bit of that "Trent Reznor, Industrial" vibe to it, at the core of the music, is still basic hip-hop beats and poetry. This is all fine and dandy. There is definitely a message behind it, and possibly even a good one, but the fact of the matter is, is its still hip-hop. The problem with hip-hop is that its a vocal-oriented form of expression, rather than a musical one, which is why it does not live up to a proper genre of music, in my opinion. Many of the songs were just plain bad, varying from just ridiculously annoying, to, songs with nothing but synthetic toms and kicks and words (RAW). I think it is a step forward for hip-hop, from what I've heard (Which isn't much, but enough to have an opinion), as it is a step toward a more industrial/electronic type music. However, I don't think this makes much difference, as the genre would have to get pretty far from what it is now to be a legitimate and important genre of MUSIC. A good thing about this album, is that, in the independent (and more rational) musician spirit, he has made the album available for free, or for a $5 donation. I don't think anyone should feel obliged to donate to him, or anyone for that matter, but it is definitely a show of courtesy. I am going to donate, simply for his brave and intelligent step towards this form of music marketing. Charging for live shows and not studio recordings (albums) is a much more sensical form of charging for music. This is why I raised the overall to a 2 instead of a 1.5.

In conclusion: Musically, I thought it was very lacking, and pretty mediocre, for the most part. As for the marketing and such, it is a good move, though certainly not groundbreaking.

The last thing I'd like to mention is: I was disappointed with the obvious unoriginality of the album title (a play off of the famous "Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars" album from David Bowie)

Just so I know, what do you guys think of the album, and what is your thoughts on my review? Do you think it's fair? I think it's a pretty fair review, considering I've never done one, and it's a review of a genre I can't even stand ;)

[rockosmodurnlif]

The review itself is decent. I liked it. I'm not a fan of those song by song reviews but I liked the conciseness of the review. You gave the pluses and minuses, so there is nothing technically wrong with the review.

That being said it holds no merit because of it's backwards view of hip hop. I'm not going to get into that argument of course because there's no changing your mind. I haven't listened to the album and I won't, I'm not that a fan of Trent Reznor but I'll give him some credit for branching out. And you credit for giving the album a full listen.

[ZiggyPastorius]

The review itself is decent. I liked it. I'm not a fan of those song by song reviews but I liked the conciseness of the review. You gave the pluses and minuses, so there is nothing technically wrong with the review.

That being said it holds no merit because of it's backwards view of hip hop. I'm not going to get into that argument of course because there's no changing your mind. I haven't listened to the album and I won't, I'm not that a fan of Trent Reznor but I'll give him some credit for branching out. And you credit for giving the album a full listen.

Fair enough. Though I would actually like you to explain to me why taking the view that a form of music based on vocal expression and not music is really music at all. Also, don't forget I actually donated to the guy simply for his marketing tactic and other things.

The reason the song reviews got mostly bad grades were, yes, because I personally didn't like them, that did have a bearing, however, songs like Raw are just not good. If I want to listen to toms, kicks, and words, I'll buy a poetry CD, or go listen to one of those street poets. If this was sold as an album for regular price, I would not consider it to be worth it at all. Not that I consider any album by anyone to be worth $17, but I do it anyways ;.; Other songs, like Scared Money were just annoying. Four, maybe five notes on a horrible-sounding trumpet, some bongos, and a tambourine. Annoying rapping (not that there's any good-sounding rapping, which that opinion of mine I will also acredit to my dislike of Down in It, by Reznor) So, yes. I would like to her why you don't think my song reviews are fair. I would not give Year Zero a five, just because I like the album, and the musical content has a great bearing on it. Some songs are just too simple. If anybody could have made your song, it's not where it should be, musically, and any good artist will tell you that. Thus, why amateurs like myself don't, and don't try, to market themselves in any way. The difference between myself and many rappers and hip-hoppers (other than the fact that I have talent, and know what music is, to say it like an ass hole ;)) is that I'm not pretending I'm this amazing composer/songwriter. They are. Enough said.

Just to clarify, though...You may not change how much I like hip-hop, but anyone could certainly change my view of it. I don't think it's musical. I also don't think a lot of stuff I like it that great, musically. It's not about what people like, as there's no doubt there are good and bad songs that everyone likes (Just take Trent for an example: Good songwriter, producing a bad album :p) but I WANT to have my mind changed, even if it's on the validity of hip-hop as a MUSICAL expression. That's the fun of life.

[A-Dog]

You just need to seek out some good hip hop: check out acts like Alias, Sole, Themselves, Restiform Bodies, Sage Francis, The Blue Scholars, there's so much out there. They make stuff with intellegence, AND manage to be very musical, though it may never be the "verse/chorus/verse" structure of guitar pop music that everyone's used to.

Having said that, hip hop isn't the first kind of music I reach for. It's usually something I put on when I'm doing something else.

[rockosmodurnlif]

Fair enough. Though I would actually like you to explain to me why taking the view that a form of music based on vocal expression and not music is really music at all. Also, don't forget I actually donated to the guy simply for his marketing tactic and other things.

The reason the song reviews got mostly bad grades were, yes, because I personally didn't like them, that did have a bearing, however, songs like Raw are just not good. If I want to listen to toms, kicks, and words, I'll buy a poetry CD, or go listen to one of those street poets. If this was sold as an album for regular price, I would not consider it to be worth it at all. Not that I consider any album by anyone to be worth $17, but I do it anyways ;.; Other songs, like Scared Money were just annoying. Four, maybe five notes on a horrible-sounding trumpet, some bongos, and a tambourine. Annoying rapping (not that there's any good-sounding rapping, which that opinion of mine I will also acredit to my dislike of Down in It, by Reznor) So, yes. I would like to her why you don't think my song reviews are fair. I would not give Year Zero a five, just because I like the album, and the musical content has a great bearing on it. Some songs are just too simple. If anybody could have made your song, it's not where it should be, musically, and any good artist will tell you that. Thus, why amateurs like myself don't, and don't try, to market themselves in any way. The difference between myself and many rappers and hip-hoppers (other than the fact that I have talent, and know what music is, to say it like an ass hole ;)) is that I'm not pretending I'm this amazing composer/songwriter. They are. Enough said.

I apologize. There was a typo in my review of your review and I think it lead to a misunderstanding. Let me clarify.

I am not a fan of song by song reviews. So you're review was good on that count. The conciseness is the type of thing I like when reading reviews. You go to the point, no lengthy introduction, said what you liked and didn't liked and got out of the way of the review. Some people get bogged down rating each song, saying one is a ten, one is a 9, this one is 3 .. I don't need that. If there is an outstanding track, name it, if there is an awful track, name it but you don't have to do them one by one. So your song reviews were fine. I didn't mind them. I hope I cleared that up.

I'll try to explain hip hop. Only because you asked.

Vocal expression is music. I haven't read anything to suggest this but I will go out on a limb and say that the first forms of music were all based on vocal ability. How many parents sing and hum to babies while holding them, whether they know it or not, they are exposing them to music. Music doesn't require instruments. If you decry it because it is vocal, then you also have to throw away barbershop quartets, Benedictine monks, choirs, the sirens form the Odyssey, heck even Bobby McFerrin and I think he had a number 1 or top 10 song.

Hip hop vocals involves no harmonizing, no key the MC has to maintain but the lyrical agility of some these men rivals the finest improvising through a complex scale. The men who are talented at this play around with language and words and meaning while maintaining a narrative. I know when I hear a particularly well done verse it has the same effect as a Max Roach drum solo or an exquisite Jimi Hendrix guitar lick. But for the great MCs it is more than a verse, it is the song. They tell their story, with each successive line building on the first, you have to let go and let the words tell the tale, like with any other song. Examples that come off the top of my head are Notorious B.I.G.'s "Warning" "Gimme the Loot"; Nas's "Halftime" "I Can".

If your objection is with sampling, well, we can discuss that later.

[LethalWolfe]

Someone who strongly dislikes hip-hop gave a thumbs down to a hip-hop album. Shocker.:rolleyes:

If you can't set personal bias aside, what is the point of reviewing something?

Music (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/music):

1. an art of sound in time that expresses ideas and emotions in significant forms through the elements of rhythm, melody, harmony, and color.
2. the tones or sounds employed, occurring in single line (melody) or multiple lines (harmony), and sounded or to be sounded by one or more voices or instruments, or both.


Lethal

[ZiggyPastorius]

Someone who strongly dislikes hip-hop gave a thumbs down to a hip-hop album. Shocker.:rolleyes:

If you can't set personal bias aside, what is the point of reviewing something?

Music (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/music):



Lethal

First, to you, if you read the review, you would see why I gave it a bad review. It's not only because I don't like hip-hop. If I was really that biased, why would I listen to the whole album, giving it my fully attention, then donate $5 to the artist, when I didn't have to? I know what the definition of music is, by the way, I'm a musician. A real one, might I add.

Second, I think you misunderstand what I mean when I say vocal expression. I'm not talking about using the voice as an instrument, I'm talking about lyrical quality. I believe hip-hop is dumbed down in the sense that it's about the lyrics and not about the music. Rap is even worse, as it's ALL about the lyrics and rapping. It's not a slam against the vocal instrument, by any means, at that level, it would just be a matter of what I personally like. I try to take my opinion of any form of music beyond whether I like it or dislike it. I can't stand Green Day, but I don't hate them as musicians because I don't like their music, I dislike them as musicians because they aren't creative and ingenuitive. Straight punk power chords (fifth chords, for anyone musically illiterate). A lot of rock music is like that, too. For example, I love Year Zero, but I'm not going to say it's an extremely creative and difficult piece of music. So to address both of you guys so far, there is no way anyone can ever fully escape their personal opinions, however, if you take the whole picture into consideration, I think you'd see I'm not just being an ass hole. If you can see musical greatness in the song "Raw," off this album, then you need to get your ears checked. It's not about hating hip-hop, it's about: The songs aren't good. Get over it. I have two words for you: Jaco Pastorius. And two more: Music theory. There are plenty of other two-word combos I could throw at you which would explain my opinions, better, but if you're really interested in the mechanisms behind my views of music, look into them yourself.

[LethalWolfe]

First, to you, if you read the review, you would see why I gave it a bad review.
I did read it and I don't know whether it's a bad album or not 'cause you have a personal bias against the genre. It's kinda reading a review of Leopard written by someone at Microsoft.

I know what the definition of music is, by the way, I'm a musician. A real one, might I add.
Ah, nothing like those self-professed "real musician" amateurs who feel the need tear down all those "fake musicians" that are more successful than they are.

. I have two words for you: Jaco Pastorius. And two more: Music theory. There are plenty of other two-word combos I could throw at you which would explain my opinions, better, but if you're really interested in the mechanisms behind my views of music, look into them yourself.
"Pompous" isn't a two word combo but it gets the job done none the less.

Here's the mechanism behind my view of music (and books and movies and art, etc.,.) if it communicates to me on an emotional level I like it. If it doesn't I don't (that doesn't necessarily mean I think it's bad, just that I don't care for it). I'm primarily rock oriented in my tastes, but I have everything from Trip-hop to Classical to Death Metal to Sea Shanties to Bubble-gum Pop to Jazz in my music collection. When I was younger I had the attitude that only certain things were "real music" and everything sucked because of X, Y, or Z. But I grew out of that and realized that all I was doing was artificially limiting my musical horizons.

You can justify your likes and dislikes however you want, I was just commenting on how it's rather pointless to read a negative review of an album from someone that has such a strong dislike of the genre.


Lethal

[rockosmodurnlif]

Lyrical quality? If you can't appreciate the difficulty of a genre driven by words, whereas in many other genres the lyrics are an after thought, then I don't know what to tell you.

I don't see how a focus on lyrics is a detriment to music. I don't. How do you justify that? Music theory?

Hip hop has evolved from being about the DJ and his beats to the MC and his rhymes. But the beat has never stopped being important. The role of DJs are more commonly filled by producers today. And the best producers have a trademark sound. You just know who it is when you hear the beat. How much more musical do you want than a trademark sound?

[ZiggyPastorius]

You're misunderstanding me yet again. I also have a lot of stuff, consisting of lots of variety, in my library. Your points about music speaking to you on an emotional level is again, about personal opinion. I'm not putting down quote-unquote "fake musicians." That wasn't my point in that comment. And my point about Jaco Pastorius and music theory wasn't being pompous. If you can listen to a Jaco Pastorius composition, then listen to "Raw," or "Skin of a Drum," or "Scared Money," off of this album, and think that they are equal, musically, because they speak to you on an emotional level, then you're understanding the whole other aspect of music. A love song can speak to almost anyone on an emotional level, but when there are 50,000,000 love songs that have been made, and you make one with the same I V IV chord progression, the same basic lyrical content, and all of that, you're not being an ingenuitive musician. Music is about expression, yes, but what's the point of expressing yourself, if your expression sounds exactly the same as someone else's expression? I'm asking you for specific facts that would convince me that the music on this album is ground-breaking in any way. And OF COURSE, there's a lot of hip-hop out there, and I obviously can't speak for every single hip-hop song ever written. Maybe, somewhere buried in the underground, there's a man who has written the single most technically and musically advanced piece of hip-hop music on earth, which surpasses any bach composition. This is unlikely, yes, because if that happened, it probably wouldn't be hip-hop anymore. The limits of the genres of rock, rap, hip-hop, et cetera, are buried in their very definitions. Very rarely can someone take one of these genre up and beyond they're musical limits, while remaining in the genre. I'm sorry, but that's the way it is. If you want to write poetry, poetry is a beautiful form of expression. But if you're one of these ****ers, unlike Saul Williams, who gets $17 per ****ing CD bought, for bland, repetitive **** that sounds the same as something written 400 other times, you're ripping people off. MUSIC, is about MUSIC, and it's not about MONEY, or POETRY. Those things should ALWAYS be after-thoughts. Convince me otherwise.

[ZiggyPastorius]

Lyrical quality? If you can't appreciate the difficulty of a genre driven by words, whereas in many other genres the lyrics are an after thought, then I don't know what to tell you.

I don't see how a focus on lyrics is a detriment to music. I don't. How do you justify that? Music theory?

Hip hop has evolved from being about the DJ and his beats to the MC and his rhymes. But the beat has never stopped being important. The role of DJs are more commonly filled by producers today. And the best producers have a trademark sound. You just know who it is when you hear the beat. How much more musical do you want than a trademark sound?

Maybe so, but how many rhythms are humans seriously creative enough to invent? Not many. I went to a ****** high-school dance this year, and half the time was spent with my girlfriend, dancing, but the rest was spent examining the ****** rap music they were playing. I swear, I heard the exact same rhythm atleast two or three times that night. Oooh, Crank Dat. Four marimba-esque instrument notes, and a generic drum machine beat with some rapping about ****ing whores and bitches and ****. Amazing music. Amazing music.

You're actually sort of backing me up a bit here, because music is, as Lethal said in an earlier post, no doubt to counter my smart-assness with smart-assness of his own, that music is a combination of melody, rhythm, harmony, et cetera. So if hip-hop and rap is about "the beat," where is the rest of it? Where are the people, who spent over 5,000 hours of their lives, playing the piano, or the trumpet, or the guitar, or the bass, in my case, sitting in the studio and jamming with other similar musicians, trying to get that unique sound? I'll tell you where they are: They're in other recording studios, playing with people like Miles Davis.

And to answer your final question: I don't want a trademark sound, at all. I want every single song to break ground in my mind, and make me wonder how the person ever improved themselves over the last piece of work I was amazed by. Portrait of Tracy to Continuum to Liberty City to The Chicken to Beaver Patrol to In France They Kiss on Main Street. And yes, I am biased towards the bass. But, these are songs that never cease to amaze me, musically. They're the songs that many can learn, but few could ever write themselves.

I really don't like trying to be an ass hole with these kinds of arguments, but with me, it personally comes down to my own musical modesty. I'm not an amazing composer, but I can compose jazz and hip-hop and rap and rock and industrial. I spend every moment I'm not at school, work, or doing something like this, composing, or playing music. If there is a piece of music that I myself would not release to the world, which emcompasses probably 90% of the music ever released by a major record label, and spanning every genre, then I will tear it down, musically. Even if I'm not very well justified in doing so, I will do it. I have too much musical modesty, and regard only ground-breaking, complex, and super-individual and expressive music highly. So, I apologise for being "pompous," but it's the way I am. It doesn't prevent me from learning non-high-regard songs. If I like the song, I would learn it. As I grow older, I will probably become more lax with my views on music, but I don't think my views of what is truly amazing music, and what is just good for listening to, will change.

Another self-professed "real-musician," tearing down "fake musicians," who have more fame than they do.

I don't want fame. For every famous person who is a great instrumentalist, there are atleast ten non-famous people who are much better. There comes a point when too much fame makes too little music.

[rockosmodurnlif]

I'm not getting into an argument with you over this. You don't get it. You never will. I've had these arguments before. The same points keep being brought up. I'm waiting for you to talk about sampling and how it's not music but taking other people's music and using it. How it requires no creativity. Blah, blah, blah. Let me sum things up. You talk about is being vocal so I talk about vocals. You talk about lyrical quality so I address it. I mention a beat and you basically say the same thing other people, myself included, have said about hip hops beats. You do realize hip hop started as party music. It's meant to get people on the dance floor. It's meant to have a good time to. Hip hop isn't about odd time signatures and instrumental noodling.

As it evolved and the MC became more important, some MCs wanted to do more than rap about having a good time. They wanted to talk about their environment, things they experienced in their community, how to make things better. Has it gotten ridiculous? Sure but no more ridiculous than Kiss or Van Halen lyrics, no more ridiculous than Deicide or Bathory lyrics, no more ridiculous than the subject matter of musicals like Chicago or West Side Story. I mean some MCs take hip hop and use it to deliver a message but they still want you to "put your hands in the air."

I don't like "Crank That" and I'm not going to spend my time defending it. But I do because without it I don't get Nas, Mos Def, Talib Kweli, Jurassic 5, Eric B & Rakim, Run-D.M.C., Slick Rick, Wu-Tang Clan, and Public Enemy. Your 5,000 hour question is ridiculous because even Miles Davis, forward thinker that he is, went into the studio to make a record with hip hop influence. The question is ridiculous because there are, and you know this, many MCs, DJs, and producers who spend every minute they aren't working writing, spinning records, and building beats. The question is ridiculous because it suggests hip hop artists don't know how to play instruments.

So let me move from hip hop, what other genres don't you consider music?

[LethalWolfe]

You're misunderstanding me yet again.
I'm not misunderstanding you at all. You sound just like many of the other music/art/film major types I've run into. It's the same, clichéd, self-important, myopic, "armchair quarterback" opinions I've heard a number of times before.

As a side note, truly modest people typically don't keep trying to convince others that they are truly modest.


Lethal

[ZiggyPastorius]

I didn't try to convince you I was modest, I simply stated it.

And you are both 100% right. There is no doubt that hip-hop artists as well as any other artists put their time into their music. I put time into my music, and they put time into their's. There's also a difference between getting it, and just refusing to acknowledge it. I get what you're saying. It's not all about being the best musician on the earth, and lyrical and vocal expression are just as important as musical expression. I just don't think that way. So it's not that I "don't get what you're saying," it's that I don't agree with what you're saying. In the end, I'm gonna leave being an ignorant, musically self-centred prick in my personal life, and you're going to leave thinking about how much you hate people like me. When I'm playing, I don't really care how difficult the music is. There's a feeling a musician gets that they don't have while they're not playing music. I can stand to play Beulah Witch, even though it's the same note over and over, with very few variations in the bass line. But when I'm done playing it, I sit there and think of how ****** it is, and I try to improve it in my own mind. When I listen to hip-hop, I think about how ****** it is and try to improve it in my own mind. I'm not infallible, but I'm not going to stop being passionate about my search for what I see as truly good music just because some guy takes "big words," that I use, and uses them back at me (e.g. Myopic).

To answer your final question, though, I don't think any of them aren't musical genres, except maybe straight rap; I just think they're bad genres. Country, Hip-hop, Rock, Industrial, et cetera. Jazz and Classical are the genres that turn me on musically. However, they're my least-listened to genres. How's that for a hypocrite? :D

About sampling, though, it really depends on how extreme it is. One thing that REALLY pissed me off, was when that rapper (I can get you the name and song if you'd like) sampled portrait of tracy, and just rapped over it, and released it as a full new song. I was really upset, because he took something that was ingenuitive and original at the time, and desecrated it. Other types of sampling, though, like throwing in a movie clip before your song, doesn't really bother me. Just as long as you're not stealing and gaining profit from the strict copying on that material.

I like you guys, by the way. You make me think, which I like.

By the way, guys, you never addressed my points about the love songs, and you never explained, lethal, why you're not misunderstanding me. You simply used ad hominem attacks that are what you claim my statements are. Why are my statements myopic, "armchair quarterback" cliche opinions? Because you said they are? Seems a bit of faulty logic to me.

[ZiggyPastorius]

The question is ridiculous because it suggests hip hop artists don't know how to play instruments.

A lot of them don't. A lot of rock musicians don't, either. And industrial musicians. Some people just shouldn't be in mainstream music. That's the reason why mainstream music is ****** now. Because we have to deal all modern punkrock bands that sound the same, and the evolved hip-hop and pop music that all sounds the same. By the way, has anyone noticed that popular music gets overplayed? I worked 8 hours today, and I heard "Big Girls Don't Cry," six times on the same station. Seems a bit excessive to me. These are whole other arguments in themselves, but it really just boils down to me being an ass hole, yet again.

[rockosmodurnlif]

I think it is a step forward for hip-hop, from what I've heard (Which isn't much, but enough to have an opinion), as it is a step toward a more industrial/electronic type music. However, I don't think this makes much difference, as the genre would have to get pretty far from what it is now to be a legitimate and important genre of MUSIC.

Though I would actually like you to explain to me why taking the view that a form of music based on vocal expression and not music is really music at all.

Just to clarify, though...You may not change how much I like hip-hop, but anyone could certainly change my view of it. I don't think it's musical. ...but I WANT to have my mind changed, even if it's on the validity of hip-hop as a MUSICAL expression.

To answer your final question, though, I don't think any of them aren't musical genres, except maybe straight rap; I just think they're bad genres. Country, Hip-hop, Rock, Industrial, et cetera.

So hip hop is a musical genre? Is that what you're saying?

There's also a difference between getting it, and just refusing to acknowledge it. I get what you're saying. It's not all about being the best musician on the earth, and lyrical and vocal expression are just as important as musical expression. I just don't think that way. So it's not that I "don't get what you're saying," it's that I don't agree with what you're saying.

And if you get what was said but you don't agree, how do you expect anyone to change your mind? As you asked above.

By the way, has anyone noticed that popular music gets overplayed? I worked 8 hours today, and I heard "Big Girls Don't Cry," six times on the same station. Seems a bit excessive to me. These are whole other arguments in themselves, but it really just boils down to me being an ass hole, yet again.

I agree with the above. It's why I no longer listen to the radio. You can tune in the radio for two hours and know what they will be playing for the rest of the week. We basically agree on sampling. I disagree with your view of mainstream music. You seem like the type to have a last.fm account. I'm on there as rockosmodurnlif (http://www.last.fm/user/rockosmodurnlif/).

[ZiggyPastorius]

Because getting doesn't really mean I have to agree. When I wrote that, I didn't know I wasn't going to agree with you, I just didn't as we discussed it. Individual points were brought up that I may agree with, but not the view as a whole. And yes, hip-hop is a music genre, just not a very musical one in my opinion. And I would change "Musical," to "music," in that earlier post.

[LethalWolfe]

I didn't try to convince you I was modest, I simply stated it.
Stated it repeatedly while at the same time talking about how you're a "real musician" and that you are better than than all the "pretenders" out there because of the "fact that I have talent". ;)

So it's not that I "don't get what you're saying," it's that I don't agree with what you're saying. In the end, I'm gonna leave being an ignorant, musically self-centred prick in my personal life, and you're going to leave thinking about how much you hate people like me.
I never said you didn't get what I was saying and I never said I hated people like you.

I can stand to play Beulah Witch, even though it's the same note over and over, with very few variations in the bass line. But when I'm done playing it, I sit there and think of how ****** it is, and I try to improve it in my own mind. When I listen to hip-hop, I think about how ****** it is and try to improve it in my own mind. I'm not infallible, but I'm not going to stop being passionate about my search for what I see as truly good music just because some guy takes "big words," that I use, and uses them back at me (e.g. Myopic).
No one is saying you should stop being passionate. But you can be passionate w/o the hate. Like the saying goes, don't blow out someone else's candle to make yours seem brighter. If you don't like something then you don't like something, but that doesn't mean it's bad. It just means that you don't like it.

I think aspiring musicians, filmmakers, authors, painters, etc., can sometimes be the worst critics of their respective fields because they can be too close to what they are critiquing (and they tend to be belligerent and insecure). I don't know how many times I've seen struggling filmmakers pointlessly nick-pick someone else's work just so they can find fault w/it or gone to a drum forum and seen people frothing at the mouth about Meg White. Is Meg White a technically gifted drummer? Seemingly not, but if the drumming serves the song, and delivers the sound the White Stripes want, then how can it be bad? It's like saying "Schindler's List" is a bad movie 'cause it's not funny. Well, it's a drama not a comedy so you can't really knock it for being something it's not, ya know? Variety is the spice of life. As great as he was, drumming would be pretty boring if everyone tried to be like Buddy Rich.


By the way, guys, you never addressed my points about the love songs, and you never explained, lethal, why you're not misunderstanding me. You simply used ad hominem attacks that are what you claim my statements are. Why are my statements myopic, "armchair quarterback" cliche opinions? Because you said they are? Seems a bit of faulty logic to me.
How can I explain that I'm not misunderstanding you anymore than saying I'm not misunderstanding you? Your point of view is nothing new to me. IMO your statements are myopic because you are looking at music w/a narrow vision, "armchair quarterback" because you are an amateur at home sounding off like you are smarter than the people making music professionally, and cliche because, well, the whole elitist artist thing is just pretty cliched.

That's the reason why mainstream music is ****** now. Because we have to deal all modern punkrock bands that sound the same, and the evolved hip-hop and pop music that all sounds the same. By the way, has anyone noticed that popular music gets overplayed?
Mainstream music isn't any more crappy or cookie-cutter now than it was 50 years ago, and yes songs tend to get played to death on the radio which is one reason why I stick w/my iPod.


Lethal

[ZiggyPastorius]

Stated it repeatedly while at the same time talking about how you're a "real musician" and that you are better than than all the "pretenders" out there because of the "fact that I have talent". ;)


I never said you didn't get what I was saying and I never said I hated people like you.


No one is saying you should stop being passionate. But you can be passionate w/o the hate. Like the saying goes, don't blow out someone else's candle to make yours seem brighter. If you don't like something then you don't like something, but that doesn't mean it's bad. It just means that you don't like it.

I think aspiring musicians, filmmakers, authors, painters, etc., can sometimes be the worst critics of their respective fields because they can be too close to what they are critiquing (and they tend to be belligerent and insecure). I don't know how many times I've seen struggling filmmakers pointlessly nick-pick someone else's work just so they can find fault w/it or gone to a drum forum and seen people frothing at the mouth about Meg White. Is Meg White a technically gifted drummer? Seemingly not, but if the drumming serves the song, and delivers the sound the White Stripes want, then how can it be bad? It's like saying "Schindler's List" is a bad movie 'cause it's not funny. Well, it's a drama not a comedy so you can't really knock it for being something it's not, ya know? Variety is the spice of life. As great as he was, drumming would be pretty boring if everyone tried to be like Buddy Rich.


How can I explain that I'm not misunderstanding you anymore than saying I'm not misunderstanding you? Your point of view is nothing new to me. IMO your statements are myopic because you are looking at music w/a narrow vision, "armchair quarterback" because you are an amateur at home sounding off like you are smarter than the people making music professionally, and cliche because, well, the whole elitist artist thing is just pretty cliched.


Mainstream music isn't any more crappy or cookie-cutter now than it was 50 years ago, and yes songs tend to get played to death on the radio which is one reason why I stick w/my iPod.


Lethal

Well, to be honest, I don't think I ever used "Hip-hop sucks because I'm a real musician and I have talent and they don't," as a reason. I did say "A real one, at that." but I don't think I said in the context you said I said it in. And that other comment was directed toward rockos. Sorry for the misunderstanding :o

To be honest, I'm at a stage in my bass playing right now, where all I really have, I feel, is this take-down of other's. I would never go right up to someone's face and tell them they or their music sucks, or I don't like it, because I wouldn't want them to do that to me. I don't think discussing why I don't like hip-hop or discussing why I think it's a less profound genre of music, or even giving an album a bad rating (all albums get bad ratings by some people some of the time..) is blowing out their candle. But for me, I'm getting closer to going to college, and I can't wait to get there, because I want to sharpen my musicianship skills even more. But, at this moment, I am transisting from practicing 8-10 hours a day and winning state music contests/events, and being known as one of the best teenage bass players in the state (I'm not bragging, or making stuff up, simply explaining the transition I'm going to), to having to work several hours a week and I don't have much that I can do to practice. I feel disappointed with myself as a bass player right now, and a lot of it is my own fault. While I never really had that composer ingenuity to a really full extent, by this time, my study of music theory has pretty much taken me over. I couldn't pick up my bass right now and play low C, middle Bb, and E, without thinking. "That's a really gross, dissonant half diminished chord." and I like knowing a lot about music, but I do also know it's kind of taken control of me. I also have a tendency to set my standard too high. I want so desperately to not only have the theoretical knowledge of someone like Jaco Pastorius, but have the creativity and ingenuity of him. Listening to a Jaco composition or a John Coltrane composition or Duke Ellington or Miles Davis, or even ohGr, is a lot of times, what gets me up and playing that day. I want to be like that, at any cost.

So, I apologise if I come off as way too harsh, but I don't like hip-hop. I don't like Green Day, or rap, or modern rock music, or modern pop music. Whether it's just my personal taste or not (which it is,) I've always gotta find a way to justify it, so that's where my arguing comes from, and in the heat of passion, I speak pretty arbitrarily.

Peace, though, guys, gotta get ready for jazz band ;)