arnold was an illegal immigrant

[meta-ghost]

it's always oh so perfect when the hypocracy of right wing ideas are laid bare. turns out, after repeatedly saying he stands for "legal immigration" only (failing to recognize the reality of the calif. economy), group sex arnold himself did not follow the laws that allowed him to come and live in the good old usa.

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/6762303.htm

[tazo]

who gives a ****? the entire state of california is overflowing with illegal aliens.

FROM THE ARTICLE:
The Hollywood star, who calls himself the ``true immigrant'' in the race, has used his own rags-to-riches tale to explain his support for Proposition 187, a 1994 ballot measure that sought to bar illegal immigrants from receiving educational and social services.

Good for him to support a GOOD policy in CA. There is no reason why these illegal aliens deserve welfare, and a free education. Go back to your country people; the US should not be a free ride for people who don't have a legal right to be here. period.

[chadfromdallas]

Originally posted by tazo
There is no reason why these illegal aliens deserve welfare, and a free education. Go back to your country people; the US should not be a free ride for people who don't have a legal right to be here. period.


AHHH I couldn't agree with this more. Texas has this problem too :rolleyes:

[tazo]

Isnt it true that Gray Davis has enacted into law a bill that would allow illegal aliens, not even american citizens, the right to get a driver's license? And in turn vote? And for who? Arnold :rolleyes: Yeah right...

I find it extremewly frustrating that illegal aliens can come into the US and get a driver's license and vote, but an American citizen like myself cannot vote due to my age? What the hell??? The US would rather give votes to illegals than give an American citizen the right to vote.....

'*SIGH*'

[meta-ghost]

the xenophobia in this thread is...overwhelming

[Dont Hurt Me]

i hope Arnold beats the heck out of all those sorry politicians both sorry Davis & his democrats and the republican politicians. They all suck if you ask me, they shouldnt have career politicians who constantly screw the american public for those special interest dollars and then we get stuck holding the bag.

[mactastic]

Oh if only those leeches-on-society illegal immigrants would go back to their countries all our woes would be over....

:rolleyes:

[amnesiac1984]

Originally posted by mactastic
Oh if only those leeches-on-society illegal immigrants would go back to their countries all our woes would be over....

:rolleyes:

true dat :o

I was jsut wondering if tazo, chad and don't hurt me actually read this article, i know tazo did, but did you understand. Arnold IS an ILLEGAL immigrant.

I guess you are so blinded xenophobia that your eyes are burnt to black raisins and you can't see the hypocracy, literally staring you the face like a huge lion about to munch on your brain-cell(s). :D

[chadfromdallas]

<illegal immigrants = bad >

Just because one illegal immigrant makes good, doesn't make <illegal immigrants = good>.






and no, I didn't read it, not that interested :p

[Sayhey]

Yes, let's rant against those who are among the most desperate in our society. Oh, and one other thing - do you think the employers of the states of Texas and California really want anything done about a pool of labor willing to work for low wages and unable to complain about unsafe and illegal working conditions? Maybe your anger is misplaced? Enforce the labor and OSHA laws and problems of illegal immigration will disappear. Folks come to this country under these conditions because there is a demand for their labor. Maybe Arnold should talk about that.

As an aside - what do you think happens to all those payroll taxes collected by employers from workers here illegally - it sure isn't paid out in SSI, medicare benefits or income tax rebates. Unless wages are payed under the table (does happen in some industries) employers and the government does well by these workers.

[amnesiac1984]

Originally posted by chadfromdallas
<illegal immigrants = bad >

Just because one illegal immigrant makes good, doesn't make <illegal immigrants = good>.






and no, I didn't read it, not that interested :p

regardless of whether you think its a bad thing. Do you not think that this proves how phony arnold is? He can't honestly believe in clamping down on illegal aliens if he is one himself. He is clearly towing the party line in this issue. Oh well doesn't bother me. If he gets elected then its just another mile down the slippery road for your country. In fact I'm almost looking forward to its demise, solve a lot of problems in this world we live in! (no offence to the many decent americans who know whats wrong with their country)

[chadfromdallas]

Originally posted by amnesiac1984
regardless of whether you think its a bad thing. Do you not think that this proves how phony arnold is? He can't honestly believe in clamping down on illegal aliens if he is one himself. He is clearly towing the party line in this issue. Oh well doesn't bother me. If he gets elected then its just another mile down the slippery road for your country. In fact I'm almost looking forward to its demise, solve a lot of problems in this world we live in! (no offence to the many decent americans who know whats wrong with their country)


I don't care if he gets elected or not. I haven't really followed what he has been doing or saying. If he is elected, it has no effect on Texas, so no worries for me. Although, since he is illegal, but preaches against them, he is a hypocrite. Doesn't sound like that great of a guy to elect ;)

[Zaid]

Just a question, do these illeagal immigrants pay income tax?

I know that the above question may sound stupid, but in a number of countries, the receiver of state revenue takes an ask no questions approach. Don't care where the income comes from as long as you pay tax on it.

Also how are taxes split? It was my understanding that sales tax was on of the prime sources of revenue for the states as opposed to the federal govt. (Do the states see any of the income tax?)

So even if these illeagal immigrants don't pay income tax they do still contribute to state coffers in the form of sales tax etc. Why exactly is it unreasonable for them to benefit from education programes. Especially given the fact that many of these immigrants add lots of value (to especially) the californian economy.

[Dont Hurt Me]

mercury news is a top information source?? come on. just more special interest mad that arnie isnt a team player.

[Sayhey]

Originally posted by Zaid
Just a question, do these illeagal immigrants pay income tax?

I know that the above question may sound stupid, but in a number of countries, the receiver of state revenue takes an ask no questions approach. Don't care where the income comes from as long as you pay tax on it.

Also how are taxes split? It was my understanding that sales tax was on of the prime sources of revenue for the states as opposed to the federal govt. (Do the states see any of the income tax?)

So even if these illeagal immigrants don't pay income tax they do still contribute to state coffers in the form of sales tax etc. Why exactly is it unreasonable for them to benefit from education programes. Especially given the fact that many of these immigrants add lots of value (to especially) the californian economy.

All employers must withhold taxes, including State/Federal income taxes, SSI, medicare, and State disability tax. These workers are obviously, unable to collect on the refunds or payout of benefits. As I said in my last post, unless all the payroll is under the table, the government and the employer make out well in this situation. Stacked against this is the cost of education of children of illegal immigrants and medical cost if someone is sick and needs emergancy room care. It is not at all clear that as a society we lose money on the situation. That is not a call for more illegal immigration, but for the need to look at why it is happening. Employers love it.

[Dont Hurt Me]

libertarian party is probably the ticket but the show is ran by the republicans and democrats, ask ross perot.

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by tazo
Isnt it true that Gray Davis has enacted into law a bill that would allow illegal aliens, not even american citizens, the right to get a driver's license? And in turn vote? And for who? Arnold :rolleyes: Yeah right...

I find it extremewly frustrating that illegal aliens can come into the US and get a driver's license and vote, but an American citizen like myself cannot vote due to my age? What the hell??? The US would rather give votes to illegals than give an American citizen the right to vote.....

'*SIGH*'

Reel that leg back in and get your knee checked.;)
It's on the recall ballot for the public to vote on on Oct 7th. Davis is supporting it.

Voting rights are not and can not be included in it, however the potential for voter fraud is there unless the licenses are different in appearance from the regular license or some other steps are taken - I can't say what the plan is because I haven't seen it yet. The rationale behind it is that there are many itinerant workers in CA (and the US) who are not citizens, but must drive on our roads to get to and from work. Many do not know our driving regulations and drive without insurance. By giving them the oportunity to get licenses, we ensure that more people on the road know the rules and are safer drivers.

As I understand it, the only way to get the license would be to have proof of employment, such as a pay stub from the farm that is paying you pick fruit all day.

[meta-ghost]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
mercury news is a top information source?? come on. just more special interest mad that arnie isnt a team player.

what's wrong with the mercury news? please name a decent source of information in "the old south".
btw, arnold is indeed a team player. he's taken and continues to take money from corporate special interest everyday.

[IJ Reilly]

I'm impressed. Big Arnie may be a political novice, but he's already mastered the three most important words in politics: "I don't recall."

[zimv20]

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
I'm impressed. Big Arnie may be a political novice, but he's already mastered the three most important words in politics: "I don't recall."

so... he'll be voting to not recall gov. davis? ;-)

[zimv20]

Originally posted by tazo
There is no reason why these illegal aliens deserve welfare, and a free education. Go back to your country people; the US should not be a free ride for people who don't have a legal right to be here. period.

Originally posted by chadfromdallas
<illegal immigrants = bad >

Just because one illegal immigrant makes good, doesn't make <illegal immigrants = good>.


i'll sum up:

"aghhhh!!!! i'm selfish and scared! they're different and i'll redirect all my suburban angst at them!!!!"

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by chadfromdallas
and no, I didn't read it, not that interested...
I don't care if he gets elected or not...
I haven't really followed what he has been doing or saying...

So why bother to comment? You've added nothing to the topic because you haven't even read what the topic is about!

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by tazo
I find it extremewly frustrating that illegal aliens can come into the US and get a driver's license and vote, but an American citizen like myself cannot vote due to my age? What the hell??? The US would rather give votes to illegals than give an American citizen the right to vote.....

You sure beat the hell out of that straw man. Good job.

No one is proposing that immigrants should be able to vote.

[IJ Reilly]

Originally posted by zimv20
so... he'll be voting to not recall gov. davis? ;-)

Ar Ar Ar.

Just my way of noting how quickly an effort was made to deflect the discussion away from an embarrassing revelation about the GOP's latest political hero.

[zimv20]

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
"I don't recall."

if davis is recalled and schwarzeneggar wins, how many newspapers do we think will carry the headline "Total Recall"?

[tazo]

Originally posted by amnesiac1984true dat

I was jsut wondering if tazo, chad and don't hurt me actually read this article, i know tazo did, but did you understand. Arnold IS an ILLEGAL immigrant.

I guess you are so blinded xenophobia that your eyes are burnt to black raisins and you can't see the hypocracy, literally staring you the face like a huge lion about to munch on your brain-cell(s).

Umm I do not appreciate being called a xenophobe; I love how people are always so quick to throw in a good hash word even if its usage is irrelevant :rolleyes: COMMUNIST LIBERAL NAZI!

ok now that i have made quota on a harsh word/post ratio in this forum....:p

If I were in fact xenophobic, which I am not, I would be afraid of people coming into my home, who were not immediately family, or i would be afraid of 'outsider's, something that relatively every human would be.

Umm my opinions on illegal immigration do not stem from ANYTHING having to do with 'outsiders'.
It's the fact that these criminals are entering through our borders illegally and being given a document that is supposed to be given to American citizens.

Now for the record I am not in support of Arnold's immigration past; I think for one its hypocritical and two I think if he is an illegal he should be fined or deported, whatever the case may be, as the INS sees fit.
If he did something illegal, he should be be punished as such. I know that his actions are hypocritical because he is allegedly tough on illegal immigration, however he himself is one.
This would lead to one extremely ironic policy in which he, deports himself?

;)

Originally posted by pseudobritou sure beat the hell out of that straw man. Good job.

No one is proposing that immigrants should be able to vote.

No one is "officially" proposing that immigrants should be able to vote but the governor of CA would like to give illegal aliens the right to obtain a driver's license. Umm, you do the rest of the math

:o

Originally posted by zimv20
i'll sum up:

"aghhhh!!!! i'm selfish and scared! they're different and i'll redirect all my suburban angst at them!!!!"


How am I selfish? Because I would like rights as an american citizen that I cannot obtain for several years that any illegal alien, presumably over 18, can obtain? Without even being a legal citizen? Maybe that would be not upsetting to you but it sure as hell is to me.

Surburban angst? Umm, I live in a very urban neighborhood, pal, my highschool is parallel to a strip club, 3 casinos, 5 gas stations, and about 2 adult movie stores. Note that the school was built MUCH earlier then the casinos et al ;) Honestly I do not understand where you came up with the suburban angst part...

Originally posted by Rower_CPU As I understand it, the only way to get the license would be to have proof of employment, such as a pay stub from the farm that is paying you pick fruit all day.

I like how you include that in there....nice one :rolleyes:

Originally posted by zimv20
if davis is recalled and schwarzeneggar wins, how many newspapers do we think will carry the headline "Total Recall"?

I don't know, but surely many :p

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by tazo
...
I like how you include that in there....nice one :rolleyes:
...

Watch the :rolleyes:, son...

It's the sad truth that most of these people are being paid chump change to do work that US citizens don't want to.

They are already a part of the economy in CA, and they are already on the roads. It makes sense to take steps to ensure the safety of everyone on the road by having them take a drivers' test.

Keep believing what you want...

[zimv20]

Originally posted by tazo

If I were in fact xenophobic, which I am not, I would be afraid of people coming into my home, who were not immediately family, or i would be afraid of 'outsider's, something that relatively every human would be.



xen·o·phobe
n.
A person unduly fearful or contemptuous of that which is foreign, especially of strangers or foreign peoples.


you hold a lot of contempt for illegals. hence, xenophobe.

-----

regarding suburban angst, i apologize for my assumption. if you are an urbanite, then you should know better.

[tazo]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Watch the :rolleyes:, son...

It's the sad truth that most of these people are being paid chump change to do work that US citizens don't want to.

They are already a part of the economy in CA, and they are already on the roads. It makes sense to take steps to ensure the safety of everyone on the road by having them take a drivers' test.

Keep believing what you want...

Don't call me son, dad. ;)

As for the contempt for immigrants comment, I have no contempt for immigrants. I have major problems with illegal aliens who only come here to take, and in turn give nothing back. That is what bothers me. Diversity in America does not bother me whatsoever, but then again the majority of immigrants to this country were legal, not illegal.

[Rower_CPU]

Where are you getting "contempt for immigrants" from?

I just said, they are here working, contributing to our economy and should be allowed to have a license. Does that sound like taking and not giving anything back?

[tazo]

Rower:

When i responded in my post i was referring to the post below, which in actuality I misread. I thought he said i hold a lot of contempt for immigrants, which is untrue. He actually said illegals. Which is true.

My mistake if you thought my comment on the 'contempt' issue was related to you.

Originally posted by zimv20

you hold a lot of contempt for illegals. hence, xenophobe.

[amnesiac1984]

Originally posted by tazo
Rower:

When i responded in my post i was referring to the post below, which in actuality I misread. I thought he said i hold a lot of contempt for immigrants, which is untrue. He actually said illegals. Which is true.

My mistake if you thought my comment on the 'contempt' issue was related to you.

I really don't see where you are coming from on this issue tazo. It has been explained about three times in this thread that illegal immigrant help out by doing jobs that no american citizen wants to do. They also pay tax without being able to get so many benefits. These people are probably better off in the US than they were at home, and the US is probably better for having them than not, so whats the problem? They're gonna drive whether or not they have a license, so why not make sure they actually CAN drive?

All you have said to back up your contempt, is, well, your contempt. If thats not xenphobia then I don't know what is!

[chadfromdallas]

Originally posted by zimv20
i'll sum up:

"aghhhh!!!! i'm selfish and scared! they're different and i'll redirect all my suburban angst at them!!!!"


Your summing up skills suck. :rolleyes:

[jefhatfield]

if true believer of the conservative california gop, mcclintock, stays in the race in a solid third place...then his popularity will hurt arnold since bustamante is 8 points ahead of arnold

but if mcclintock bows out, then arnold will get some of those votes and likely win the race

the gop in california is more to the right than the moderate republicans of the bush administration and many of them are not too happy with arnold being, in their eyes, a liberal republican who is pro gay rights and pro choice

the christian right in california are definitely allied with mcclintock and are sad that their poster boys simon and issa are not on the ballot for governor...i see them not voting instead of compromising and going for arnold

this will be an interesting race, with a middle of the road democrat on the ropes, a liberal lt. governor ready to snatch the top spot, a liberal republican married into the kennedy family, and the secret x-factor in conservative mcclintock, with conservative simon out of the race, and recall originator issa also not running

it is really anyone's guess who will win next month and as a democrat, i can rest that i know that simon or issa will not run

[Desertrat]

Lordy! :D There is either a new high or a new low for confusion in just one thread, here!!!

Arniepoo wasn't an illegal immigrant. He came in on a student visa. He violated the condition of that visa which says you can't work for a salary. He got a regular stipend from a gym owner to explain his techniques in body-building. Had he been found out at that time, he might or might not have lost his visa.

Personally, I have no problem with legal immigrants of whatever color/religion/ideas, but illegal immigrants are crooks and to resent them is in no way xenophobia or racism. I have no use for lawbreakers, even though I'm in full sympathy for the homeland misery of the Mexicans who illegally come here to work. If you're a rancher in the Borderlands, you can justifiably stay irate and foaming at the mouth over your losses to vandalism (cut waterpipes = dead cows) and the trails of trash across your land--as well as burglary and assault and even rape.

Regardless of how hard legal or illegal immigrants work, how inherently good they are, one thing is factual: A large influx of poor and uneducated people creates high costs to the public at large. The use of emergency rooms for routine medical problems has forced the shutdown of many small hospitals. The language problems have dramatically increased the costs of schools. The lack of knowledge of the basics of diet and sanitation creates other health problems, including transmissible diseases such as tuberculosis and such skin problems as ringworm and impetigo.

I've dealt with a goodly number of moja'os ("Mojado", "wet", is commonly pronounced "MOE-HOW".) during the last 35 or so years. Lotsa good folks; lotsa sorry trash. They're people. Still, they're illegal. We're either a government of laws or we're not. I'm happy to enforce laws against hiring them. If no other labor is available, fine. Do some other business. Let folks eat off paper plates...

'Rat

[IJ Reilly]

Originally posted by Desertrat
Lordy! :D There is either a new high or a new low for confusion in just one thread, here!!!

So far, anyway.

Look, I think you've just restated for modern ears the exact same anti-immigrant argument we've been hearing since the late 19th century. For reasons I've never quite followed, immigrants are always supposed to be bad for the country. At the same time, it's clear over the course of our history, that it's the immigrants who built the bloody country. Makes no sense to me. And before you make a big distinction between legal and illegal immigrants, keep in mind that the definitions of legal and illegal change constantly, depending on how we feel about immigration generally at any given point in time.

[Ugg]

Originally posted by Desertrat
Personally, I have no problem with legal immigrants of whatever color/religion/ideas, but illegal immigrants are crooks and to resent them is in no way xenophobia or racism. I have no use for lawbreakers, even though I'm in full sympathy for the homeland misery of the Mexicans who illegally come here to work. If you're a rancher in the Borderlands, you can justifiably stay irate and foaming at the mouth over your losses to vandalism (cut waterpipes = dead cows) and the trails of trash across your land--as well as burglary and assault and even rape.

Regardless of how hard legal or illegal immigrants work, how inherently good they are, one thing is factual: A large influx of poor and uneducated people creates high costs to the public at large. The use of emergency rooms for routine medical problems has forced the shutdown of many small hospitals. The language problems have dramatically increased the costs of schools. The lack of knowledge of the basics of diet and sanitation creates other health problems, including transmissible diseases such as tuberculosis and such skin problems as ringworm and impetigo.



There's no doubt that illegal immigration incurs costs. There is also absolutely no doubt whatsoever that if it weren't for illegal immigration our food costs would skyrocket. Whether it is IBP importing aliens to work in its beef packing plants or all the farmworkers picking food in So. Cal. Estimates that I've seen would make the price of our food 20-30% higher.

What about all those nannies and housekeepers and janitors and all those other "untouchable" jobs?

Back when gw was trying to impress the world with his knowledge of Spanish and being all buddy buddy with Vicente Fox, there was a proposal on the boards to allow Mexicans a limited visa. This would have provided us with the much needed farm labor, reduced our border patrol costs and saved many lives of those who try to enter the US illegally. That has all gone by the wayside not least because Mexico chose not to support the US in Iraq.

The problem is very real and the solutions aren't that difficult. It's time to stop the subhuman treatment of Mexicans in particular and legal and illegal immigrants in general and come up with a viable solution. Due to increased scrutiny of student visas up to 25% of University research projects will not take place this year. Immigrants are what made this country great and the lack of them will contribute to its downfall.

Arnie took advantage of his visa, he is no different than someone who snuck over the border and by his rules should be punished for it.

[Desertrat]

IJ, how is not wanting illegals to be ignored somehow an "anti-immigrant" notion? I quote myownself: "I have no problem with legal immigrants of whatever color/religion/ideas..."

I'd like a little more precision in the use of language: The definitions of "legal" and "illegal" don't change over time. "Illegal" always has meant no paperwork; folks who didn't follow the rules. "Legal" means those who follow the rules and get some form of visa. Now, the rules themselves--quotas from particular countries and suchlike--do change over time.

I'd not have a problem with a "guest worker" program, similar to the old "Bracero" deal we once had. I think there should be a quid pro quo, however, where foreigners weren't denied jobs in Mexico. A U.S. citizen can work for a US company doing business in Mexico, but not for a Mexican company.

One thing that has always struck me as ironic when I do some infrequent travel through "the projects": I see able-bodied males standing around. They look to be of working age. Why are they not taking these jobs of the wetbacks? If these people aren't on some form of public dole--and able-bodied males are supposedly receiving no welfare--why do they refuse to work? The TV and newspapers and some of you in this thread say all this work is available. ???

:), 'Rat

[Ugg]

Originally posted by Desertrat
I'd not have a problem with a "guest worker" program, similar to the old "Bracero" deal we once had. I think there should be a quid pro quo, however, where foreigners weren't denied jobs in Mexico. A U.S. citizen can work for a US company doing business in Mexico, but not for a Mexican company.

One thing that has always struck me as ironic when I do some infrequent travel through "the projects": I see able-bodied males standing around. They look to be of working age. Why are they not taking these jobs of the wetbacks? If these people aren't on some form of public dole--and able-bodied males are supposedly receiving no welfare--why do they refuse to work? The TV and newspapers and some of you in this thread say all this work is available. ???

:), 'Rat

I disagree with you on the quid pro quo part, let Mexico get its act together and create somewhat of an equal playing field, then push for equal employment rights.

Do you have any idea of what it is like for the typical migrant worker? It is rough because you have to follow the crops if you want work. They live in their vehicles and the sanitary conditions at most migrant camps are horrendous. Not out of ignorance rather out of a lack of interest on the part of the employers. How many Americans are going to do this? We've been fed the American dream and the idea of being a transient Okie-type just doesn't appeal anymore. What if you have kids? Most harvests are in the late summer/fall and their lives would be totally disrupted. Americans as you have said before are too soft.

I spent two months during college working at an organic truck farm. The work sucks and although I learned a lot I was paid minimum wage, we slaved away when we had to with no overtime, worked rain or shine and if there was nothing to do we didn't get paid. Take a good hard look at labor laws regarding farmworkers and you'll see why so few Americans are interested in it.

Let's face it, the migrants from south of the border are an ingrained part of life in the US and it won't change until the birthrate down there drops. I read recently that it looks as though 2020 will be when immigration northwards should drop off substantially. As in almost all cases it's not until scarcity takes place that a solution will be found. We should all plan on spending the next 17 years or so agreeing to disagree because nothing's going to change until then.

[zimv20]

Originally posted by Desertrat

wetbacks

a lot of people find that term offensive.

[IJ Reilly]

Originally posted by Desertrat
IJ, how is not wanting illegals to be ignored somehow an "anti-immigrant" notion? I quote myownself: "I have no problem with legal immigrants of whatever color/religion/ideas..."

I'd like a little more precision in the use of language: The definitions of "legal" and "illegal" don't change over time. "Illegal" always has meant no paperwork; folks who didn't follow the rules. "Legal" means those who follow the rules and get some form of visa. Now, the rules themselves--quotas from particular countries and suchlike--do change over time.

I take the long, historical view of immigration. I know that what's considered to be legal immigration one day can be illegal the next, and then back again. These are some of the most arbitrary and least consistently enforced rules in existence, and have frequently ebbed and flowed with the nation's passions. The history of US immigration law is not a pretty sight.

By your definition, Arnold Swartzenegger is an illegal immigrant. He violated the terms of his visa -- a deportable offense in reality today, and technically in the 1960s when he happened to do it. What use are rules when they are so arbitrarily enforced?

The other reason I take the long view is personal. Three out of four of my grandparents were immigrants. They and their parents didn't have a pair of nickels to rub together when they got here, spoke no English, and had no useful trade. They spent their first years in the US living in some of most impoverished conditions imaginable. I know what many Americans said about my grandparents and great-grandparents then, and it wasn't very nice. But they took on this challenge for the sake of future generations, and for that I will always be grateful. I think it worked out pretty well -- not only for me, but for the nation.

[Sayhey]

Originally posted by Desertrat
IJ, how is not wanting illegals to be ignored somehow an "anti-immigrant" notion? I quote myownself: "I have no problem with legal immigrants of whatever color/religion/ideas..."

I'd like a little more precision in the use of language: The definitions of "legal" and "illegal" don't change over time. "Illegal" always has meant no paperwork; folks who didn't follow the rules. "Legal" means those who follow the rules and get some form of visa. Now, the rules themselves--quotas from particular countries and suchlike--do change over time.

I'd not have a problem with a "guest worker" program, similar to the old "Bracero" deal we once had. I think there should be a quid pro quo, however, where foreigners weren't denied jobs in Mexico. A U.S. citizen can work for a US company doing business in Mexico, but not for a Mexican company.

One thing that has always struck me as ironic when I do some infrequent travel through "the projects": I see able-bodied males standing around. They look to be of working age. Why are they not taking these jobs of the wetbacks? If these people aren't on some form of public dole--and able-bodied males are supposedly receiving no welfare--why do they refuse to work? The TV and newspapers and some of you in this thread say all this work is available. ???

:), 'Rat

First, 'Rat, you know better than use such an offensive term.

Second, I've read nobody's post who is pushing for the laws to be ignored. The point is that there are some awful stereotypes of workers who come to this country without the proper authorization and desperate for work. Most people in this situation work in terrible jobs where the labor laws are ignored. Yet, I don't see you calling for those laws to be enforced. Only the ones that attempt to keep people on different sides of the border seem to be important.

I said it earlier and I will say it again, the reason this situtation exist is somebody is making a lot of money off these workers. Want to stop this situation? Then go after those employers and make companies that go across the border pay living wages and provide healthy working conditions, and I guarantee you this will at least decrease considerably as a problem. People do not make the hazardous journey to come to this country illegally in order to just hang out on the streets.

[tazo]

Yet, I don't see you calling for those laws to be enforced. Only the ones that attempt to keep people on different sides of the border seem to be important.

If we do not enforce our borders, than what is the US?

[Desertrat]

ugg, of course I know the conditions for migrant labor. I've picked cotton, for two cents a pound, myownself. I've spent more than one day out in a corn or cotton field with a hoe. "Child Labor On The Family Farm" is the title of my unwritten book. :) When my grandfather finally bought a tractor, in 1945, I thought I'd died and gone to heaven! Even a skinny 11-year-old could turn the crank to start it...I can tell you that a morning spent staring at the south end of a northbound plowhorse isn't the most exciting view I've ever seen.

"Wetback" upsets some folks. Tough stuff. I've worked with folks from "otro la'o del rio" who of themselves said, "Soy moja'o."

I had an 18-year-old kid show up at my place in Terlingua, looking for work. He was from Mexico City. He'd ridden a bus to the border, sneaking across near Presidio, Texas. He'd walked 70 miles down river to my area. (Summertime, in the desert.) He had no English, and little in the way of useful skills.

Plenty of work in Mexico City, but a day's wages wouldn't buy a day's worth of food, he told me.

I figured out some makework for three days. I paid him $10 a day, made him a comfortable bed, and he ate with me. I found another guy who had some English, who needed a helper for some work he'd found, and sent the kid on his way. Never heard further.

I wish some of our home-grown 18ers had that sort of drive to find a better life...

Still, when they're coming in very large numbers, we have ourselves a miserable social problem, Hecho en Mejico.

'Rat

[zimv20]

Originally posted by Desertrat

I wish some of our home-grown 18ers had that sort of drive to find a better life...


i think you underscored a point several people had made about contributing to the workforce and not just draining resources.

maybe we can have an 18-year-old exchange program w/ mexico :-)