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MacRumors
Sep 13, 2003, 01:44 PM
ThinkSecret reports (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/panther7B68.html) that Panther 7B68 Client has been seeded.



Sublime
Sep 13, 2003, 02:07 PM
Come on, some one tell us how cool it is...


:D

dho
Sep 13, 2003, 04:29 PM
Sublime:

IMHO It is very doubtful that their will be any changes besides bug fixes from here on out.:(

SeaFox
Sep 13, 2003, 04:30 PM
Why is this on page 2? I think the fact you can download it makes it more than a questionable rumor. :confused:

dho
Sep 13, 2003, 04:47 PM
Page 2'd probably due to "lesser interest". I myself am interested, but I'm sure many will only be interested when the bugs are gone.

Presumably their is not much new to see.:o

edit: wrong smilie!

Nermal
Sep 13, 2003, 05:29 PM
"... before it's released on 3 October." Have we seen this date before?

FredAkbar
Sep 13, 2003, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by dho
Sublime:

IMHO It is very doubtful that their will be any changes besides bug fixes from here on out.:(
I'd say this is a good thing. The sooner it gets to the fine-tuning phase, the sooner it will be released :D

bennetsaysargh
Sep 13, 2003, 06:05 PM
i like how its progressing. i don't like how i cant install it as a main system (i don't want to because its a beta.)
waiting untill GM:)

Freg3000
Sep 13, 2003, 06:11 PM
I am just waiting for Macrumors to report that the developer seednote now says, "this build is being considered for GM." That would be great?

One that note, what is the latest date that a OS can begin GM so that we could have a 10-3 release date? It must take about a week to produce the CDs and the boxes. No?

sandsl
Sep 13, 2003, 06:47 PM
I'd say about 1-2 weeks after the build has turned GM..CD pressing in particular.

Boxes can be produced before the GM is selected.

mac15
Sep 13, 2003, 09:01 PM
According to a friend whos dad works for the design company in Englad who made the Logos and the box's and designs where done on August 14th. So it could be done in a week easy

Rincewind42
Sep 14, 2003, 01:04 AM
If Apple were going to put out the release for early Oct, then they would need to be in the final candidate stage now, and would have to be selecting GM within the next two weeks. I do not know if either is true at this time.

henryblackman
Sep 14, 2003, 03:09 AM
Can sites please stop posting about seeds, as just as Think Secret reports, Apple has threatened the terminate the seed programme if any further seeds, or information regarding to seeds, is leaked.

I'd rather Apple maintains the seed programme, it's in all our interests. If it's cancelled, imagine that it will take twice as long for developers to certify their applications for the new versions of OS X as they'll have to buy it seperately (if at all), and at the same time as the rest of the public.

I think releasing information of this kind, does the public a real disservice. It's hardly life-or-death information, and really is there anyone who's life has changed because they know that, for example, the encryption algorithm has changed in FileVault (as reported by Think Secret)? Hardly.

The information contained in the seeds is under non-disclosure agreement, as such if released to the public, it is considered illegally obtained. There is no "duty" to release this information, except for the sensationalism that is rife on the Internet.

Please stop.

wrldwzrd89
Sep 14, 2003, 04:45 AM
Henryblackman, you raise a very valid point. I agree with your views on seeds; I would like to know about the release date of Panther and stuff like that, but not about EVERY SINGLE SEED that's released. I see it as overkill.

dricci
Sep 14, 2003, 05:57 AM
You two are aware that is this a rumor site, right? ;)

henryblackman
Sep 14, 2003, 06:08 AM
Originally posted by dricci
You two are aware that is this a rumor site, right? ;)

Yes, but if you read my post, you'll see why rumor sites shouldn't be posting details about stuff that is legally privileged.

At the end of the day, all Thinksecret is doing is driving people to it's website to increase it's advertising revenue. It's breaking the law, and may well be responsible for Apple withdrawing the seed programme - which I AND MANY OTHER DEVELOPERS PAY FOR. As an ADC member, I often hear about a seed on Thinksecret before Apple lets me know it's there.

Whatever Nick from Thinksecret says, his "multiple sources" are probably his own membership of ADC Select. The "news" is copy and pasted from the seed notes he likely gets... and let's face it, knowing about particular bugs in a particular seed isn't news to anyone. He isn't telling anyone anything they didn't already know from Apple.com, except the minor details about how a dialog box will look. All he is doing is selfishly risking the seed programme to our developers who NEED it, and that gets right on my nerves.

bitfactory
Sep 14, 2003, 09:13 AM
Originally posted by henryblackman
Yes, but if you read my post, you'll see why rumor sites shouldn't be posting details about stuff that is legally privileged.

At the end of the day, all Thinksecret is doing is driving people to it's website to increase it's advertising revenue. It's breaking the law, and may well be responsible for Apple withdrawing the seed programme - which I AND MANY OTHER DEVELOPERS PAY FOR. As an ADC member, I often hear about a seed on Thinksecret before Apple lets me know it's there.

Whatever Nick from Thinksecret says, his "multiple sources" are probably his own membership of ADC Select. The "news" is copy and pasted from the seed notes he likely gets... and let's face it, knowing about particular bugs in a particular seed isn't news to anyone. He isn't telling anyone anything they didn't already know from Apple.com, except the minor details about how a dialog box will look. All he is doing is selfishly risking the seed programme to our developers who NEED it, and that gets right on my nerves.

i'm in the same boat as you - i agree.

Freg3000
Sep 14, 2003, 10:09 AM
Sure it may be illegal, but every one of us does something illegal every single day. And with given, who does this hurt? Think Secret reports that the latest builds include bug fixes! What? This is breaking news! :rolleyes:

I could see if a premiere tester had shown off Exposť in April, to me that would be very wrong. However, we all know most of the features of Panther, and the fact that people know about fixes to AFP servers does not upset Apple very much.

Although it is still wrong, I don't think it jeopardizes the seed program.

bennetsaysargh
Sep 14, 2003, 10:33 AM
i hope at the last minute, they put a new feature that was only put into internal builds or maybe a new app into it, like junkyard:)

Nick dePlume
Sep 14, 2003, 11:22 AM
Just so we're all clear on this, there's nothing illegal about any of Think Secret's reporting, including the Panther seed reports. No one at Think Secret has signed a nondisclosure agreement (NDA) or any other type of agreement with Apple; like any other story, our reports are based on information provided by sources. If we had signed an NDA with Apple, then posting this would represent a breach of contract; our policy is to not sign NDAs.

Feel free to contact me if you have any other questions.

-Nick dePlume
Publisher and Editor in Chief
Think Secret

henryblackman
Sep 14, 2003, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by Nick dePlume
Just so we're all clear on this, there's nothing illegal about any of Think Secret's reporting, including the Panther seed reports. No one at Think Secret has signed a nondisclosure agreement (NDA) or any other type of agreement with Apple; like any other story, our reports are based on information provided by sources. If we had signed an NDA with Apple, then posting this would represent a breach of contract; our policy is to not sign NDAs.

Feel free to contact me if you have any other questions.

-Nick dePlume
Publisher and Editor in Chief
Think Secret

Actually, you are incorrect, your action remains illegal because the information you are posting is illegally obtained.

At the end of the day, while I'm probably sounding zealot-like, if Apple withdraw the seed programme, Thinksecret will probably be a big cause.

Do us all a favour, just stop.

henryblackman
Sep 14, 2003, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by Freg3000

Although it is still wrong, I don't think it jeopardizes the seed program.

Except Apple have said they *will* withdraw the seed programme if these breaches of NDA continue.

So that's how it jeopardises the programme.

Kid Red
Sep 14, 2003, 11:48 AM
Well that's debatable. Your publishing information disclosed by someone violating their legally binding commitment with Apple to not discuss anything they are in contact with. It may not be illegal, per say, but it is immoral and does indeed jeopardize the seed programs. Rumors sites already had the Safari seed program closed down because of these stupid leaks.

As for those concerned about the seed program, don't fret, this build hasn't been seeded to anyone other then developers. So because it's been leaked, it's a developer leaking it and not an Apple seed participant. At least the timing of the leaks show that it's not seeders leaking the info.

Nick dePlume
Sep 14, 2003, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by henryblackman
Actually, you are incorrect, your action remains illegal because the information you are posting is illegally obtained.

All of Think Secret's newsgathering practices fall within the bounds of US media law, and we take great pains to ensure that they do. In short, nothing has been "illegally obtained."

-Nick

damson34
Sep 14, 2003, 11:55 AM
I don't believe that Apple will stop the seeding process completely because they need people to test the seeds. If anything they will add something in to the seeds to see which seeder they leaked from such as a PID or something like that.

duffman9000
Sep 14, 2003, 12:11 PM
Maybe we shouldn't hear about every single seed, but i'd like to know when Panther is nearing GM.
As for ThinkSecret breaking laws, it's pretty funny when "undisclosed officials" at the CIA leak something to the Washington Post. At least ThinkSecret has been great at posting reliable rumors/news.
No one wants to close down the seed program. I think the availability of seeds has gotten worse (better?) due to the anticipation of Panther. Everyone that has tried it has been amazed how much better it is compared to Jag. I know it doesn't make it right but in a way Apple makes people do this because they want Panther so bad. It only takes one and i hope Apple doesn't take it out on the developers.

AppleMatt
Sep 14, 2003, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by damson34
I don't believe that Apple will stop the seeding process completely because they need people to test the seeds. If anything they will add something in to the seeds to see which seeder they leaked from such as a PID or something like that.

They trialed a similar thing with Safari. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.
I can't think of any immediate benefits of halting the seeding, as it would

- Mean ADC members are getting less for their money (so to speak).
- Not stop Microsoft/competitors getting their grubby hands on info and seeds.
- Increase the build-time.

Also what percentage of Mac users are online, are interested enough to read rumor sites, are still interested enough to follow Panther seeds, have a connection capable of downloading them, then report back on them etc etc...I would guess very little. At the same time I guess the seeds possibly damage sales, and spoil the "oohhhhhh" factor at presentations.

AppleMatt

negrito
Sep 14, 2003, 01:52 PM
i really would like to know how good the finder supports smb and ftp in this build? if there is no problem with that the build is approaching fc as those are important technologies. of course the overall design and graphical glitches are also a good indicator.

or maybe apple doesn't touch the fishy ftp implimitation of jaguar?! ...i don't hope it!

Jimmni
Sep 14, 2003, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by henryblackman
Except Apple have said they *will* withdraw the seed programme if these breaches of NDA continue.

So that's how it jeopardises the programme.

They're just trying to scare people. They said the same thing with Jaguar. Every seed was pirated, and they still threatened, and still released seeds. Apple just can't afford to stop the seeds. And if they do, it'll be the people releasing the seeds to the general public who will be to blame, not Think Secret. They just give news of when a seed is released. What harm does that do? MacRumors will have done FAR more harm to the Panther program when they showed those Expose shots a few months back. Just about every national newspaper does similar things.

- Jimmni

bitfactory
Sep 14, 2003, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by Jimmni
They're just trying to scare people. They said the same thing with Jaguar. Every seed was pirated, and they still threatened, and still released seeds. Apple just can't afford to stop the seeds. And if they do, it'll be the people releasing the seeds to the general public who will be to blame, not Think Secret. They just give news of when a seed is released. What harm does that do? MacRumors will have done FAR more harm to the Panther program when they showed those Expose shots a few months back. Just about every national newspaper does similar things.

- Jimmni

i'd like to see them embed something in the test seeds when 10.4 comes around - something identifying the 'tester' or 'developer' - the leaks would no doubt stop.

AppleMatt
Sep 14, 2003, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by Jimmni
MacRumors will have done FAR more harm to the Panther program when they showed those Expose shots a few months back.

Even though Steve Jobs showed Expose himself?

hmmmmmm

AppleMatt

nuckinfutz
Sep 14, 2003, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by bitfactory
i'd like to see them embed something in the test seeds when 10.4 comes around - something identifying the 'tester' or 'developer' - the leaks would no doubt stop.

That will stop the distribution of the OS itself but it will not stop information about the seed from coming.

Truth be told this is Apples fault. They struggle to maintain secrecy and that creates a challenge for Mac users. Apple stopping the seed program would simply hurt their ADC memberships. It ain't happening.

beamso
Sep 14, 2003, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by henryblackman
At the end of the day, while I'm probably sounding zealot-like, if Apple withdraw the seed programme, Thinksecret will probably be a big cause.


Thinksecret doesn't leak the builds, ADC members do. Posting information about the builds is minor in comparison to the distribution of them.

ffakr
Sep 14, 2003, 10:58 PM
If Nick is right, and he's legally covered by Press laws, that doesn't make some of his actions OK.

The Press laws he described are there in order to ensure that people, organizations, or governments can't bury dirty secrets easily.
Apple provides these beta releases only under the conditions of their NDA. These aren't smuggled documents detailing Apple wrong doing, these are software releases that Apple makes available to developers under the understaning that the details of said software remain confidential.

I'm not a lawyer, but if Nick receives this information and understands that the source has provided the information in direct violation of a NDA contract with Apple, he shouldn't print details of photos of the releases. Apple is a company. It has the right to keep details of upcomming software under wraps until they see fit. This isn't a government hiding details of how many people are being detained.. it's a company trying to do business, and trying to do the best for it's investors.

Saying that a release is out is one thing. Saying whether it's buggy or great or fast is probably OK IMHO too.
Posting screen shots and reviews of developer releases is not right.

I don't think Apple will kill the seeds. The seeding process is as usefull to Apple as it is to developers. It doesn't help Apple to release Panther and find out that half the apps don't work under it.
They might, however, begin to limit the number of beta's the release.. maybe they'll hold out features from the betas till release.
This wouldnt' help Apple, it wouldn't help developers.. and in turn it certainly wouldn't help Mac users.

I like Thinksecret. I've posted there quite a bit and I feel like i'm part of the community there, but I don't like the detailed beta reports.

ffakr

simX
Sep 14, 2003, 11:51 PM
OK, seriously guys, give me a break. Posting information about leaked Panther seeds is not going to make Apple cancel the seed program, nor is it going to hurt Apple as a company.

Apple has done this to themselves. They've *ALWAYS* been a secretive company, unlike Microsoft which often does public previews of its upcoming software and stuff. Due to the secrecy, and due to the fact that Apple has come to have a loyal group of followers, these followers want to know about everything that Apple is going to do next. They want to be the first to know about what next new innovative product Apple has around the corner. Apple just feeds the fire by continuing to be secretive and by continuing to not comment on rumors.

I'm not saying this is a bad part of Apple's policy. They do have every right to protect their products, and to release information about them when they see fit.

But Apple rumors have been around for such a long time! MacOSRumors.com has been around since at least 1997; same with AppleTurns.com, which used to be more of a rumor site than a satirical Apple news site. MacNN used to run a rumor site; AppleInsider's been around for a while. So why do you guys think that more rumors are going to hurt Apple? They're not! Apple has had to deal with this for a long time, and no matter what they try to do, Apple's not going to get away from it. So Apple has no choice to accept it.

Seriously, though... there's a small dedicated group of rumormongers who like to go to ThinkSecret and MacOSRumors and read about all the new things that Apple's been prototyping (like the G5 dodecahedron... :rolleyes: ). But the average Mac user couldn't care less about all this rumormongering. And we're already dealing with about 5% of computer users anyway, so there's a relatively small number of people who read Apple rumors. So the leaking of all this information is really not going to jeopardize Apple's business. That argument is specious, at best.

Let me stress one more time that Apple rumors have been around for many years, so having rumors around right now is not going to be any more of a problem to Apple than it was back in 1997.

And if you believe that leaking information about software development will hurt Apple, then there's no choice for you but to admit that leaking information about upcoming HARDWARE products will hurt Apple even more, necessitating the entire shutdown of MacRumors. Do you really think that MacRumors has *THAT* much of an effect on Apple's business? We often don't even have any of the correct information! Apple still pulls off surprises (like the original iMac, and the introduction of the 12" and 17" Powerbooks). What about Exposť? Everyone was just going bonkers off the walls about piles, and it's still nowhere to be seen in Panther. Yet Apple pulls off the surprise unveiling of an *AWESOME* new feature that is going to be so much of a better timesaver than piles ever could be.

At the most, all that rumors do is lag sales just before big trade shows, but that lag in sales is offset by pent up demand for upcoming products AFTER Apple introduces them at major trade shows, so it all evens out in the end. Apple probably even benefits from the publicity that rumors generate, especially when publications like the NYTimes get in on the rumor frenzy.

But, no, rumors do not hurt Apple in the least.

Kid Red
Sep 15, 2003, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by damson34
I don't believe that Apple will stop the seeding process completely because they need people to test the seeds. If anything they will add something in to the seeds to see which seeder they leaked from such as a PID or something like that.

Wrong. They stopped the Safari seed program when a build was leaked less then 2 hours after being seeded.

Wes
Sep 15, 2003, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by simX
(like the original iMac, and the introduction of the 12" and 17" Powerbooks).

Good post, and I agree, BUT, Macrumors had the 12" and 17" on the main page long enough for me to see it before Arn pulled it because the source didn't like the info he supplied being on the main page.

simX
Sep 15, 2003, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by Wes
Good post, and I agree, BUT, Macrumors had the 12" and 17" on the main page long enough for me to see it before Arn pulled it because the source didn't like the info he supplied being on the main page.

I still count the 12" and 17" PowerBook introduction as a successful Apple surprise because arn only posted the info on MacRumors late the night before Jobs' expo keynote (I think it may even have been past midnight). So by that time many people could just as well have gotten the news from Apple's front page, given that probably some people had gone to bed, and others had probably left for MWSF in the morning.

Jimmni
Sep 15, 2003, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by AppleMatt
Even though Steve Jobs showed Expose himself?

hmmmmmm

AppleMatt

*sigh* sheesh... I'm talking about the leaked shots MR showed *before* WWDC and Jobs' demo. Panther's biggest new feature - the surprise blown. A few bugs fixed - surprise blown. Which is worse? Which is more harmful to Apple?

And saying "But Job's showed Expose anyway!" is pointless, since he showed most of Panther. ThinkSecret hasn't had any great scoops on this, they've just kept people reliably informed.

- Jimmni

bennetsaysargh
Sep 15, 2003, 02:38 PM
and all we had for expose` was a screenshot of the preferences. we didn't know what t was.

Jimmni
Sep 15, 2003, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by bennetsaysargh
and all we had for expose` was a screenshot of the preferences. we didn't know what t was.

Actually, we had screen shots of the preferences, of it in action, and shots, for that matter, giving away Panther's new look. And there were fairly detailed descriptions of what Expose did. It was an 80% giveaway, and I wish I'd not seen it prior to the keynote. At least I didn't believe it was real, so I still got some element of surprise.

- Jimmni

Rower_CPU
Sep 15, 2003, 02:56 PM
Why come to a rumor site if you're going to complain about finding something out ahead of time? :confused:

Wes
Sep 15, 2003, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Why come to a rumor site if you're going to complain about finding something out ahead of time? :confused:

EXACTLY, if you think Apple's sales are being ruined by this, why please, be the first to voice your opinion by not coming back.

Disonince1979
Sep 15, 2003, 09:45 PM
Ok I installed it and still haven't been able to find anything new...other than the system wide debug menu is gone (or they changed the hot key) so no more sidebar tweaker. Quicktime seems to be 6.4 final...still. Pretty much a bug squashing releace, more refinement. Since there is nothing new, and the new desktops are in, GM is coming soon.

(In an unrealted note, if you use toast 6 hold down option then get info about toast 6...I found the easter egg while looking for new stuff in 10.3)

Disonince1979
Sep 15, 2003, 09:55 PM
See.

bennetsaysargh
Sep 16, 2003, 02:05 PM
woot! a new version of safari!

Disonince1979
Sep 17, 2003, 02:36 AM
It has full screen built in now :)

Xerocs
Sep 17, 2003, 06:23 AM
yehaw, fullscreen.

my most wanted feature ;)

bennetsaysargh
Sep 17, 2003, 07:02 PM
full screen browsing in safari?

Disonince1979
Sep 17, 2003, 08:15 PM
I just noticed it the other day. And I thought there was nothing new. Woo hoo!

Disonince1979
Sep 17, 2003, 08:22 PM
I think this is a new ikon...pretty sure the old one had a phone book. (been using panther so long I forgot :( )

Disonince1979
Sep 17, 2003, 08:27 PM
Finally it asks, don't know if it was in others but man, no more having to open permmitions.

Disonince1979
Sep 17, 2003, 08:28 PM
I am sick in bed with the flu. I am bored.:confused:

nuckinfutz
Sep 18, 2003, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by Disonince1979
I am sick in bed with the flu. I am bored.:confused:

Don't sweat it man. The more the merrier. Get Well.

Disonince1979
Sep 20, 2003, 08:29 AM
Helping my mom out with some photoshop issues (scanning and in larging photo's). I mentioned how stable panther is. She tries to follow me as a beginner (just gave her my 15 ti 2 months ago), so I mentioned how the latest test builds never crash. Then the question came, "what is a crash"? Then I checked her uptime on the titanium, it's never been rebooted, never crashed. Even with like every app open (she is a beginner I said), and all kinds of error messages hidden. No crashes. Just imagine a world where computers don't crash. I almoast shed a tear after seeing how stable her system was. She loves her computer, and that makes me think about how much I hate microsoft. Bill gates may be the richest man in america, but he got there by robbing the best possible user expierence on a computer from millions of americans. So many hate computers, only because they have never really used one.

bennetsaysargh
Sep 20, 2003, 09:32 AM
wow. now that should be a commercial.

cnladd
Sep 20, 2003, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by Disonince1979
Then the question came, "what is a crash"? Then I checked her uptime on the titanium, it's never been rebooted, never crashed.

And, the uptime was...?

Juventuz
Sep 20, 2003, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by Disonince1979
I just noticed it the other day. And I thought there was nothing new. Woo hoo!

VERY weird, I'm using Safari 1.1 (v100) and I don't have the full screen option.

Disonince1979
Sep 21, 2003, 06:58 AM
Full screen browsing hack without telling me, sorry. False alarm. Wishfull thinking though :D

bennetsaysargh
Sep 22, 2003, 02:37 PM
how do you get the full screen browsing hack?

Disonince1979
Sep 22, 2003, 07:06 PM
I think it was just off of versiontracker.com

bennetsaysargh
Sep 23, 2003, 05:20 AM
thanks:)

iindigo
Sep 23, 2003, 08:09 AM
Wow! Panther looks so much more finished and TONS more polished than Jag! Me want!!! :p :D