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IChing
Nov 5, 2007, 10:29 AM
A U.K.-based data-recovery organization has warned Apple Macbook users that they risk potential data loss due to a design flaw on certain hard drives.

Retrodata has come across "many dozens" of failures affecting Seagate Technology LLC 2.5-in. Serial Advanced Technology Attachment drives, commonly found in laptops such as the MacBook or MacBook Pro. Apple Inc. desktops that use laptop-oriented components, such as the Mac Mini, are also at risk.

"The read/write heads are detaching from the arm and plowing deep gouges into the magnetic platter," explained Retrodata Managing Director Duncan Clarke. "The damage is mostly on the inner tracks, but some scratches are on the outer track -- Track 0 -- and once that happens, the drive is normally beyond repair."
:eek:
http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9045520

gnasher729
Nov 5, 2007, 12:04 PM
A U.K.-based data-recovery organization has warned Apple Macbook users that they risk potential data loss due to a design flaw on certain hard drives.

1. So far this is one guy making this claim. Obviously it is all over the internet by now, with people quoting people who quoted people who quoted him.

2. Does anyone think that Apple would be the only manufacturer using these drives? Like, should Dell customers, HP customers, Gateway customers, Acer customers etc. etc. watch out as well?

kkat69
Nov 5, 2007, 12:14 PM
2. Does anyone think that Apple would be the only manufacturer using these drives? Like, should Dell customers, HP customers, Gateway customers, Acer customers etc. etc. watch out as well?

Well since Dell, HP, Gateway, Acer, et al don't make the iPhone, and don't have iMacs that have constant lock up issues, and don't have people pulling out of iTunes I don't think they are affected.

People love to find and/or create news items directed towards/against Apple even if it can involve other computer companies, yet they leave those other companies as well. But because it's Apple or Apple has those components or potentially can be involved, news writers LOVE to single out Apple.

In regards to recent news of course they are gonna single out Apple.

MacBytes
Nov 6, 2007, 08:55 AM
http://www.macbytes.com/images/bytessig.gif (http://www.macbytes.com)

Category: Apple Hardware
Link: MacBooks face lost data risk (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20071106095506)
Description:: none

Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)
Approved by Mudbug

danny_w
Nov 6, 2007, 09:00 AM
ANY hard disk can crash and lose data; that is why we have backups. I would never operate any computer, especially a laptop, without a good backup. Perhaps these drives are worse than average and should be fixed, but there is no reason for losing months or years of data due to this.

dr_lha
Nov 6, 2007, 09:04 AM
Hmm... very interesting. My mother-in-law's MacBook HD recently died, and she lost a bunch of stuff. I fixed it for her and set her up with a system to back her data up in future, but I'm wondering now if she was a victim of this "flaw".

chrissurra
Nov 6, 2007, 09:46 AM
This happened to my hard disk I wonder if it was due to this malfunction.

eenu
Nov 6, 2007, 09:48 AM
I have seen enough to know there is a problem with them, any Apple Mac that uses a 2.5 inch drive is at risk.

Not quite true! My MBP has a Fujitsu so mine is not at risk from this guys claimed mass fault!

JoeCo0611
Nov 6, 2007, 09:59 AM
My blackbook's HD failed at the beginning of August, so I can see this as a legit topic.

When I took it in to get replaced the apple genius' (genii? lol) at the Chicago store actually high fived me for telling them "do what you need with it, I have a everything backed up at home." I guess they don't get that kind of responsibility all the time.

Lesson: All drives face the risk of failure, so go spend the (now) sub 100 dollars to get an external drives to save your stuff. DUH. Apple makes it easy for you now with Time Machine if you didn't know how to drag and drop your folders before.

royaletea
Nov 6, 2007, 10:18 AM
I hope Apple gets on this quickly; I'm thinking of getting a new laptop sometime soon, and I'd hate to have it crash on me. Thankfully I already have an external HD so it wouldn't be hard to backup what I needed.

I agree with the other posters though, an external HD is just a good investment, especially with the prices dropping to pretty affordable rates.

John Morris
Nov 6, 2007, 10:21 AM
While I do agree that ultimately it is the user who is responsible for their own data security, if this is a hardware issue it needs to be addressed by Apple immediately.

Luckily, my White MacBook has a Toshiba drive and my MacBook Pro has a Fujitsu drive, so I should be ok.

Foxglove9
Nov 6, 2007, 10:26 AM
Wow, that's not a good thing but it's not Apple's fault. Luckily my MacBook came with a Fujitsu Hard Drive, but what scares me in the 3 months I've had it I already had to "repair disk" in disk utility because an error came up when I verified.

mogema
Nov 6, 2007, 10:42 AM
This is somewhat good news to hear. I work at a large university where our recommended mac setup is a Macbook with external monitor. We have had so many macbook drives fail it isn't funny - we were certain that there was some kind of design flaw or that apple chose the cheapest drive they could find. It's comforting to hear that we aren't alone and weren't going crazy.

I also personally own a Macbook, and about a year after I bought it, I was working in a document and every application one by one froze: a tell-tale sign of hard drive issues. I took it into our hardware shop and the drive was toast. Fortunately I had applecare. However, over the next few weeks we were seeing the hard drives failing in the exact same way in other Macbooks. Many, many others. To date we've had 10 of ~40 drives crash in core duo macbooks (not core 2 duo - they appear to mostly be using toshiba drives).

Of those that were sent to apple for repair, they were returned with the same model of seagate drive. Those that we repaired in house were replaced with hitachi. It'll be interesting to see what happens when this new batch of seagate drives reach a year old.

CPPhoto
Nov 6, 2007, 10:58 AM
i just checked my system profile and i have one of these drives, with 7.01 firmware...of course im backed up...but still...


its a macbook pro as well, which, i think is crap that they would use bad drives in it, because for a 2700.00 machine, it should have quality components. You would figure apple would be a little bit smarter. I have noticed the noise from the hard drive has become noticable over the past few months, so i have some reason to worry..

macFanDave
Nov 6, 2007, 11:21 AM
when it is a Seagate problem?

Is Apple the only one using this drive? If not, the appropriate headline would have been something like, "Seagate flaw affects MacBooks, others." I'm sick of Apple getting singled out for bad press when a problem is industry-wide. I'm disgusted when I see "iPod causes hearing loss" stories because ALL MP3 players (all personal stereos, for that matter) have the same potential to cause hearing loss. If the iPod had exceptionally loud volume, that story would be legit, but using the iPod's popularity to cause the greatest alarm is yellow journalism.

And that woman who lost two months of "critical data" when her HD failed: ******* her! If you have critical data, and you don't back up, you are just waiting for a disaster like this to happen. Had her house been burglarized or caught fire, her data loss wouldn't have made the news, even though it exposes the same level of negligience on her part.

iJawn108
Nov 6, 2007, 12:31 PM
so.... i have one of these... what the hell should i do with it? i havent been having issues.
doesnt seagate give 5 year warranties? is it still the same on apple hardware

mulze22
Nov 6, 2007, 01:51 PM
This exac thing happened to me. I lost so much data. I was stupid for not backing it up but then again being a college student doesn't really allow me to go out and buy an external. However x-mas is coming up so I think I might have to ask for a harddrive.

eenu
Nov 6, 2007, 02:10 PM
so.... i have one of these... what the hell should i do with it? i havent been having issues.
doesnt seagate give 5 year warranties? is it still the same on apple hardware

NOTHING, just make sure you back up your data

J@ffa
Nov 6, 2007, 02:17 PM
so.... i have one of these... what the hell should i do with it? i havent been having issues.
doesnt seagate give 5 year warranties? is it still the same on apple hardware

No. Five years applies only to retail Seagate drives, not an OEM (original equipment manufacturer), which is what these drives are. They're guaranteed only for the life of the manufacturer's warranty, which is obviously either one or three years depending on whether you bought AppleCare.

On a side note, I work for a Mac repair company and this is definitely not an isolated issue. We've seen way too many to count, far more than any other make. Sure, if it's Seagate's problem, they should foot the bill, but Apple has a responsibility to warn their users that their equipment might be defective. Also, in the cases where we haven't been able to retrieve data, neither have several data recovery labs. Practically all the others (Hitachi, Fujitsu, whatever) have failed but not as totally as these, and either we or a lab with a clean room has been able to recover at least some data.

longofest
Nov 6, 2007, 03:22 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

There is news today on potential data loss vulnerabilites in Mac OS and in Apple's notebook drives manufactured by Seagate.

The vulnerability revolving the Mac OS was first documented by Tom Karpik (http://tomkarpik.com/articles/massive-data-loss-bug-in-leopard/).

Leopard’s Finder has a glaring bug in its directory-moving code, leading to horrendous data loss if a destination volume disappears while a move operation is in action. I first came across it when Samba crashed while I was moving a directory from my desktop over to a Samba mount on my FreeBSD server.

I’ve now run tests on a Windows XP SP2 SMB mount, as well as a local HFS+ formatted USB drive, and the bug surfaces every time the destination disappears while the Finder is moving something to the destination.
The bug is claimed to have existed as far back as Mac OS 10.3 Panther, though the site focuses mainly on Mac OS 10.5 "Leopard."

The other data loss vulnerability surrounds Apple's MacBook and MacBook Pro computers that utilize certain Seagate drives. UK data recovery firm Retrodata discovered a flaw (http://www.retrodata.co.uk/notice_apple_seagate_drives.php)where the read/write head fails and causes gouges in the hard drive platter.

The faulty drives are all Seagate 2.5" drives that are manufactured in China, with a Firmware revision of 7.01. They are also all SATA interface. No other drives seem (at this stage) to be affected.
Retrodata discovered the flaw due to the sheer volume of recovery requests of the particular drive, and strongly suggests that Apple take appropriate action, possibly including a product recall.

the Helix
Nov 6, 2007, 03:25 PM
Holy sheet Batman! That is one scary possibility!

X5-452
Nov 6, 2007, 03:26 PM
i was poking and prodding around my system profiler, but i can't seem to figure out how to tell if i have a seagate drive. under the serial-ata tab it tells me the vendor is intel, but that can't be right?

technocoy
Nov 6, 2007, 03:29 PM
i just checked my system profile and i have one of these drives, with 7.01 firmware...of course im backed up...but still...


its a macbook pro as well, which, i think is crap that they would use bad drives in it, because for a 2700.00 machine, it should have quality components. You would figure apple would be a little bit smarter. I have noticed the noise from the hard drive has become noticable over the past few months, so i have some reason to worry..

This is a little sensationalist. Apple wouldn't have known that the drives were going to do this at the time of the deal with Seagate. It's a manufacturing flaw that is discovered to late.

The key thing here is that they fix the issue by offering a recall if indeed it becomes evident that this is in fact a mass defect.

I've have used Seagate for years and always had quality performance from them. The only brand I have had perform the same or better were my hitachi drives.

I would hope that when brought to their attention and after their independent analysis they take steps to make it right, but there is no reason to assume that Apple duped us all by putting ACME brand drives in our macbook pros. hahaha.

PygmySurfer
Nov 6, 2007, 03:31 PM
i just checked my system profile and i have one of these drives, with 7.01 firmware...of course im backed up...but still...


its a macbook pro as well, which, i think is crap that they would use bad drives in it, because for a 2700.00 machine, it should have quality components. You would figure apple would be a little bit smarter. I have noticed the noise from the hard drive has become noticable over the past few months, so i have some reason to worry..

Apple didn't deliberately chose cheap components, apparently there's just a bad batch of these Seagate drives out there. It's not as though Apple new the drives sucked and used them anyway.

crackermac
Nov 6, 2007, 03:32 PM
Reminds of me a quote from American Dad.
"...something might go down somewhere in some way at some point in time."

Moral: Hard drives can go bad. Back your stuff up.

Marx55
Nov 6, 2007, 03:33 PM
In my experience with thousands of drives, Seagate ones are the worst drives money can buy. Noisy, hot and uttermost unreliable, breaking without previous notice. Really horrible. Besides and amazingly, they are more expensive (probably to pay the 5-year warranty plan!). Avoid them like a pest.

longofest
Nov 6, 2007, 03:35 PM
This is a little sensationalist. Apple wouldn't have known that the drives were going to do this at the time of the deal with Seagate. It's a manufacturing flaw that is discovered to late.

The key thing here is that they fix the issue by offering a recall if indeed it becomes evident that this is in fact a mass defect.

I've have used Seagate for years and always had quality performance from them. The only brand I have had perform the same or better were my hitachi drives.

I would hope that when brought to their attention and after their independent analysis they take steps to make it right, but there is no reason to assume that Apple duped us all by putting ACME brand drives in our macbook pros. hahaha.

I like Seagate too, but you do have to be careful which Seagate drive you get. They aquired Maxtor a little bit ago...

http://www.seagate.com/maxtor/

thirdwaver
Nov 6, 2007, 03:35 PM
A vulnerability? :rolleyes: Is MacRumors now in the headline grabbing business? If GM has a problem where the car can suddenly break down, we don't call it a vulnerability - it's a defect! If the doors had a habit of popping open while you were in the mall, THAT would be a vulnerability.

C'mon. Let's not add to the FUD that's out there about Mac Vulnerabilities. This is a quality control issue and a bug. There are hundreds of them. They aren't vulnerabilities unless they affect the security of the box. Yes, I know there are purists out there who say that "Availability" is part of security, but then we better call any bug that causes data loss a vulnerability.

Sean

PygmySurfer
Nov 6, 2007, 03:36 PM
I hope Apple gets on this quickly; I'm thinking of getting a new laptop sometime soon, and I'd hate to have it crash on me. Thankfully I already have an external HD so it wouldn't be hard to backup what I needed.

Don't let this stop you. I have a MacBook Pro and a Mac mini, they both have Hitachi drives, Apple also uses Fujitsu and Toshiba drives. You really don't know what you're going to get, and even if you do end up with a Seagate drive, there's no guarantee yours is going to fail, just as there's no guarantee a non-Seagate drive will fail.

mozmac
Nov 6, 2007, 03:38 PM
Is Leopard really a buggy release, buggier than Tiger? Or are we just hearing more complaints because OS X is getting more popular...and has been making fun of Vista for the past few years?

avkills
Nov 6, 2007, 03:38 PM
In my experience with thousands of drives, Seagate ones are the worst drives money can buy. Noisy, hot and uttermost unreliable, breaking without previous notice. Really horrible. Besides and amazingly, they are more expensive (probably to pay the 5-year warranty plan!). Avoid them like a pest.

Hmmm... I ran Ultra160 SCSI Seagate drives in a video RAID system and never once had a drive fail; and I am sure I tortured them more than a average laptop boot drive.

I have never had problems with Seagate drives ever.

-mark

Trooperof3
Nov 6, 2007, 03:39 PM
purchased a macbook 3 hours ago. Recall would suck

nagromme
Nov 6, 2007, 03:40 PM
From what I've read, there was an issue that they DID fix from Panther... but now it's back. I expect 10.5.1 will be along shortly.

Luckily doing Copy (which is the default behavior) instead of Move is a safe workaround. Even more luckily, I've never had a destination volume vanish. But with WiFi I easily could!

As for Seagate--I hope THEY offer a recall. But what a pain to have to swap drives for a problem that might or might not happen :(

GoodWatch
Nov 6, 2007, 03:41 PM
when it is a Seagate problem?

Is Apple the only one using this drive? If not, the appropriate headline would have been something like, "Seagate flaw affects MacBooks, others." I'm sick of Apple getting singled out for bad press when a problem is industry-wide. I'm disgusted when I see "iPod causes hearing loss" stories because ALL MP3 players (all personal stereos, for that matter) have the same potential to cause hearing loss. If the iPod had exceptionally loud volume, that story would be legit, but using the iPod's popularity to cause the greatest alarm is yellow journalism.

And that woman who lost two months of "critical data" when her HD failed: ******* her! If you have critical data, and you don't back up, you are just waiting for a disaster like this to happen. Had her house been burglarized or caught fire, her data loss wouldn't have made the news, even though it exposes the same level of negligience on her part.

There is always more than one side to a story. Of course it’s silly to blame Apple for third party hardware defects. Until…. The defect can be pinpointed to a single production run that spans an x amount of devices. When BMW discovers a fault in the brake system of their 3 series, what do they do? They recall all the cars that are potentially affected, even though Brembo manufactures the defective part. The headlines in those cases don’t read: “Defective Brembo parts affect BMW, others”. It reads: “BMW recalls 100,000 cars for possible brake defects”. See my point?

Apple should just step in and recall the lot, that’s what companies like the despised Dell do. But in Dell’s case it’s because they produce 'crap'. In Apple’s case it’s because they fell victim to somebody else’s foul up. And perhaps you get reactions like these because of the slogan: “It just works”. That’s what happens if you tout that your hardware is superior and everything “Just works”.

137489
Nov 6, 2007, 03:41 PM
Ok, I am new to Macrumors and still about 6 months away from buying my first MAC (I have been waiting through all the Leopard, Macbook, and Vista Hype). Know I know Apple is the way to go.

I would not go blaming Apple for all of it. In the last company I worked with, we deployed IBM desktops out in the field and had hard drives failing left and right. It was not until 2 months later that IBM knew/foundout that the Seagate (hmm pattern here? :rolleyes:) hard drives had issues and there had been a massive recall on them? What ever happened to the days when Seagate was the best drive on the market?

I am an I/T professional and even at that I have to keep telling out I/T depts. BACKUP YOUR DATA!!!! Anything mechanical will eventually break. Especially if you use it heavily.

PygmySurfer
Nov 6, 2007, 03:42 PM
In my experience with thousands of drives, Seagate ones are the worst drives money can buy. Noisy, hot and uttermost unreliable, breaking without previous notice. Really horrible. Besides and amazingly, they are more expensive (probably to pay the 5-year warranty plan!). Avoid them like a pest.

You know, you hear stuff like this all the time, but it's just anecdotal evidence. I've had great luck with Western Digital, other people avoid them like the plague. I wouldn't dare purchase Maxtor, but other people.. well, I guess not many people have good things to say about Maxtor. :)

I've had a couple Seagate drives, and they've never given me problems. They were also very quiet. That they purchased Maxtor kind of worries me though.

Gasu E.
Nov 6, 2007, 03:43 PM
when it is a Seagate problem?.

It's up to Apple to choose quality components, and continue to monitor and verify that quality. This problem if real represents a flaw in Apple's verification and acceptance procedure for third-party components. After all, you are buying an Apple product, not a Seagate product. Outside of the software, the firmware, and the physical design pretty much everything in the MacBook is an integrated third-party product. Yet you are buying the Apple brand because the total offering provides a perceived value. It's not just a Seagate drive; it's a Seagate drive with Apple's guarantee and endorsement.

Small White Car
Nov 6, 2007, 03:43 PM
The Seagate thing is a Seagate issue. Hope they figured it out.

But the other bug is stupid stupid stupid on Apple's part. How hard is it for OSX, during a move opperation, to make sure the copy is complete before erasing the original? Not hard at all, I'd think. I'd cetainly hope they get that fixed in 10.5.1, as I can't imagine it being a very big fix.

Eidorian
Nov 6, 2007, 03:44 PM
Remember to backup and stick it to Apple to get a replacement.

Move along now people. :rolleyes:

longofest
Nov 6, 2007, 03:44 PM
A vulnerability? :rolleyes: Is MacRumors now in the headline grabbing business? If GM has a problem where the car can suddenly break down, we don't call it a vulnerability - it's a defect! If the doors had a habit of popping open while you were in the mall, THAT would be a vulnerability.

C'mon. Let's not add to the FUD that's out there about Mac Vulnerabilities. This is a quality control issue and a bug. There are hundreds of them. They aren't vulnerabilities unless they affect the security of the box. Yes, I know there are purists out there who say that "Availability" is part of security, but then we better call any bug that causes data loss a vulnerability.

Sean

Are people vulnerable (i.e. susceptable) to data loss because of the presence of these defects? Yes. Therefore, the usage of the word vulnerability to describe these defects fits.

The article said it was data loss vulnerabilities, not security vulnerabilities. Ease up man.

PygmySurfer
Nov 6, 2007, 03:45 PM
Hmmm... I ran Ultra160 SCSI Seagate drives in a video RAID system and never once had a drive fail; and I am sure I tortured them more than a average laptop boot drive.

I have never had problems with Seagate drives ever.

-mark

SCSI drives in general are much more reliable than IDE/SATA - especially 2.5" laptop drives.

nagromme
Nov 6, 2007, 03:47 PM
Is Leopard really a buggy release, buggier than Tiger? Or are we just hearing more complaints because OS X is getting more popular...and has been making fun of Vista for the past few years?

It doesn't seem buggier than any other new OS release--and I don't know that we ARE hearing more complaints than when Tiger was new. But as you say, there are a lot more people using brand-new Leopard than were using brand-new Tiger. Plus we forget the problems/incompatibilities Tiger or XP or Vista had at first. They get fixed (as they will with Leopard) and then forgotten.

imwoblin
Nov 6, 2007, 03:47 PM
Here is more info:

"These drives are made in China, and the afflicted models are loaded with firmware Version 7.01

Model numbers include ST96812AS and ST98823AS. Users can check what firmware revision their drives have by going to System Profiler and looking under SERIAL ATA."

Wouldn't you know it, my Macbook Pro has a ST98823AS and firmware 7.01

darthmullet
Nov 6, 2007, 03:50 PM
i was poking and prodding around my system profiler, but i can't seem to figure out how to tell if i have a seagate drive. under the serial-ata tab it tells me the vendor is intel, but that can't be right?

Thats the SATA controller you're looking at. Click the number under it, something like "ST9100824AS" (my particular model of Seagate HD), for the actual drive.
Where it says "Revision: 7.01" (or whatever) is what you want to check for the firmware version.

I've personally never had a problem with a Seagate drive and am hoping this is just an isolated issue with one model of 2.5" drives... I guess I should upgrade to a larger Fujitsu or Toshiba drive sooner rather than later anyway.

ajbgmex
Nov 6, 2007, 03:50 PM
i just checked my system profile and i have one of these drives, with 7.01 firmware...of course im backed up...but still...


its a macbook pro as well, which, i think is crap that they would use bad drives in it, because for a 2700.00 machine, it should have quality components. You would figure apple would be a little bit smarter. I have noticed the noise from the hard drive has become noticable over the past few months, so i have some reason to worry..

I have had 2 of those HDs replaced by Apple, first one under warranty and second one under Apple Care, My third one is the same as the rest, 80GB HD, I have a Black MacBook, so if you ask me if this one will die too, I say, of course, LOL

nagromme
Nov 6, 2007, 03:52 PM
It's up to Apple to choose quality components, and continue to monitor and verify that quality. .... It's not just a Seagate drive; it's a Seagate drive with Apple's guarantee and endorsement.

And there is NO question that if the HD fails, Apple WILL stand by that guarantee and replace it. That's what the warranty provides.

Asking Apple to magically guess that these drives would fail BEFORE they did--when even Seagate probably couldn't even predict the problem--isn't reasonable. Seagate isn't some cheap supplier known to be unreliable and unsuitable.

Components will always fail unexpectedly. It's what Apple does afterward that speaks to their quality. I don't expect Apple will be denying warranty service on this issue.

I do hope there's a recall as well, because in the case of data, replacement is not a complete solution. And I do expect Apple will have a role in that recall, even if Seagate pays for it.

137489
Nov 6, 2007, 03:55 PM
Is Leopard really a buggy release, buggier than Tiger? Or are we just hearing more complaints because OS X is getting more popular...and has been making fun of Vista for the past few years?

Any first release will bound to have some issues. I know I am a computer programmer. Even with great testing it is hard to catch everything a user will do. yes MAC is getting more popular. I went to Streets at Southpoint here in Durham, NC. There were about 20 people on the sidewalk who just bought an IMAC and they were in the process of selling 10 MACbooks to new mac users when I was playing with leopard. Vista, I am not impressed. to me it is another Millenium - looks cool, but useless. I must say the new Safari makes my website look great. IE7 and Firefox displays the text as bad as the web editor I am using.

MrCrowbar
Nov 6, 2007, 03:57 PM
My Macbook cam with a 89 G Hitachi, but I swapped it for a Seagate with twice the space.

http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/9792/picture6bp0.png

I checked System Profile but my firmware version (revision) is "3.ALB". Can someone tell me if that is equal to 7.01 or where I can look up my firmware revision correctly? It is manufactured in China according to http://www.evertek.com/ProductView.asp?auto=33553

I back up critical stuff (documents, photos) at least weekly depending on much I changed it and got Time Machine backing up my stuff at least once a day now so I don't care if my Macbook would suddenly burst into flames or whatever. Still, I don't like thinking my hard drive has known issues.

I only use Seagate Momentus (2.5") and Barracuda (3.5") drives cuz they're reliable and quiet. I'm planning on getting a Drobo tho, that I can fill with various crappy drives cuz it's redundant.

Macula
Nov 6, 2007, 04:00 PM
I am expecting my replacement Macbook Pro to arrive via FedEx tomorrow.

The first one had a defective graphics diode or something and the screen flickered like mad.

Now, I wonder whether the replacement machine will have a high-risk drive. It is the Seagate 160GB/7200RPM option, and I think that the disk model number is ST9160823AS. Does anyone know where this particular drive is made? China or Singapore?

ChrisA
Nov 6, 2007, 04:01 PM
...what scares me in the 3 months I've had it I already had to "repair disk" in disk utility because an error came up when I verified.

That type f "repair" has nothing to do with a hardware failure. it was to do with the book keeping the OS does to manage the space on the drive. Basically the books did not balance. causes of this are almost certainly either software errors or the power being turned off unexpectedly.

Unspeaked
Nov 6, 2007, 04:06 PM
when it is a Seagate problem?

Is Apple the only one using this drive?

Probably. If the past serves as any indication, these drivers were probably made exclusively for Apple by Seagate, thus they're equally to blame...



In my experience with thousands of drives, Seagate ones are the worst drives money can buy. Noisy, hot and uttermost unreliable, breaking without previous notice. Really horrible. Besides and amazingly, they are more expensive (probably to pay the 5-year warranty plan!). Avoid them like a pest.

Funny, as Seagate drivers are generally considered the best in the industry. Of course, any brand's drive can go bad, it's just your luck. Personally, I'll buy anything but Maxtor. If you don't like Seagate, what brands do you think aren't noisy, hot and unreliable?



The Seagate thing is a Seagate issue. Hope they figured it out.

Seagate's not the one that's going to have to do the legwork and customer coddling that Apple will if this is really a big issue...


(And no I don't work for Seagate!) :)

offwidafairies
Nov 6, 2007, 04:07 PM
any chance of an exchange program like the batteries :D

Telp
Nov 6, 2007, 04:13 PM
i was poking and prodding around my system profiler, but i can't seem to figure out how to tell if i have a seagate drive. under the serial-ata tab it tells me the vendor is intel, but that can't be right?

its under the ATA at the top. It will be the second one (if you dont have anything attatched. It will say capacity. And all that jazz. Took me zome time to find it too.

SiliconAddict
Nov 6, 2007, 04:18 PM
Finder sucks? Well color me shocked. Shocked I say shocked. :rolleyes: To be fair it has gotten way better with Leopard. But still.

PS- Does anyone know if this only pertains to Apple hard drives? I purchased a Seagate 160GB SATA drive last fall from OWC.

Zeke
Nov 6, 2007, 04:21 PM
Well this would've been nice to see a couple of weeks ago before our Macbook HD crashed. Same exact problem. Lost data because I've never had one crash before. I guess I'll hold on to the HD if there ends up being some sort of recall.

Snide
Nov 6, 2007, 04:21 PM
FWIW, I have purchased many Seagates, and have yet to have one fail.
They have been the only ones with a 5 year warranty, as far as I know.

I just had an aftermarket Hitach 160 GB drive fail in my Macbook; ironically I
was updating my backup clone which I hadn't done in 3 weeks. It basically froze up!
This time I chose a Seagate, model #ST160821AS, so hopefully I'll be OK.

I would never dream of not backing up at least semi-regularly...

Back up, folks, and save your tears for those things you cannot control!

andrewface
Nov 6, 2007, 04:22 PM
thats ******** my harddrive just died!
after a year of having the macbook...and it wasnt under warranty...they better do something about this....grrr

offwidafairies
Nov 6, 2007, 04:31 PM
thats ******** my harddrive just died!
after a year of having the macbook...and it wasnt under warranty...they better do something about this....grrr

man that sucks, one year is not long. harddrives should last at least 5years i reckon

milo
Nov 6, 2007, 04:31 PM
Is Leopard really a buggy release, buggier than Tiger? Or are we just hearing more complaints because OS X is getting more popular...and has been making fun of Vista for the past few years?

No. And I don't think we're really hearing more complaints, I think people just remember the past through rose coloured glasses.

That said, the move bug is pretty serious and pretty inexcusable. Apple needs to fix it ASAP.

BlueRevolution
Nov 6, 2007, 04:38 PM
when it is a Seagate problem?

Is Apple the only one using this drive? If not, the appropriate headline would have been something like, "Seagate flaw affects MacBooks, others." I'm sick of Apple getting singled out for bad press when a problem is industry-wide. I'm disgusted when I see "iPod causes hearing loss" stories because ALL MP3 players (all personal stereos, for that matter) have the same potential to cause hearing loss. If the iPod had exceptionally loud volume, that story would be legit, but using the iPod's popularity to cause the greatest alarm is yellow journalism.


Sorry, to dig this up, but it warrants a reply:


Should you have one of these drives in your system, we believe the problem is serious enough to warrant copying all your data off the drive and replacing it with an alternative drive, or a retail-version Seagate drive.


I don't know whether MacBooks are the only ones to contain this particular type of drive, but it is obviously not the same as that found on store shelves. So the article title may well be accurate. I assume that, being a tech company, if they were to see many computers with failed drives they would post a notice to all affected. (Or not at all, if they didn't want to cut into their business there.)

beaker68
Nov 6, 2007, 04:40 PM
This is very interesting, I have a Mini with at 60GB Seagate and it was Leopard day and the drive died, was not a happy camper, computer was 370 days old Yes 5 days out of warranty, I phoned apple care and they told me it can't be the drive, now knowing this I'll be giving them a call back, to see if they might be willing to split the cost of the new drive that I purchased.

A*ROCK
Nov 6, 2007, 04:41 PM
My apologies if this has already been addressed...

I am waiting on the arrival of the newly updated (as of last week) Macbook I ordered from the Apple Website. My understanding is that there is a new type of HDD used in the updated version. Is that a different HDD than the one in question or is it the same?

Thank you,

-A

MrCrowbar
Nov 6, 2007, 04:45 PM
FWIW, I have purchased many Seagates, and have yet to have one fail.
They have been the only ones with a 5 year warranty, as far as I know.

I just had an aftermarket Hitach 160 GB drive fail in my Macbook; ironically I
was updating my backup clone which I hadn't done in 3 weeks. It basically froze up!
This time I chose a Seagate, model #ST160821AS, so hopefully I'll be OK.

I would never dream of not backing up at least semi-regularly...

Back up, folks, and save your tears for those things you cannot control!

I have that same Seagate drive. It is made in China. Can you check the revision (System Profiler -> Serial ATA, click on the triangle at the Intel thing)? Min is 3.ALB which kinda doesn't look like a number to me...

Stridder44
Nov 6, 2007, 04:45 PM
when it is a Seagate problem?

Is Apple the only one using this drive? If not, the appropriate headline would have been something like, "Seagate flaw affects MacBooks, others." I'm sick of Apple getting singled out for bad press when a problem is industry-wide. I'm disgusted when I see "iPod causes hearing loss" stories because ALL MP3 players (all personal stereos, for that matter) have the same potential to cause hearing loss. If the iPod had exceptionally loud volume, that story would be legit, but using the iPod's popularity to cause the greatest alarm is yellow journalism.

And that woman who lost two months of "critical data" when her HD failed: ******* her! If you have critical data, and you don't back up, you are just waiting for a disaster like this to happen. Had her house been burglarized or caught fire, her data loss wouldn't have made the news, even though it exposes the same level of negligience on her part.


I agree with you on the headline trying to make it seem like this is all Apple. It could be anyone that uses this drive. As far as the data loss thing goes and that woman, not everyone backs up their drives. Yes it's a smart thing to do (I do myself) but not every computer user knows to do this, or even how. So telling her to "***** herself" is a bit extreme.

MrCrowbar
Nov 6, 2007, 04:48 PM
Sorry, to dig this up, but it warrants a reply:

I don't know whether MacBooks are the only ones to contain this particular type of drive, but it is obviously not the same as that found on store shelves. So the article title may well be accurate. I assume that, being a tech company, if they were to see many computers with failed drives they would post a notice to all affected. (Or not at all, if they didn't want to cut into their business there.)

Well, Hard drives in Macs have that tiny apple logo printed on them. So I guess they are made only for Apple?

me_94501
Nov 6, 2007, 04:48 PM
Are people vulnerable (i.e. susceptable) to data loss because of the presence of these defects? Yes. Therefore, the usage of the word vulnerability to describe these defects fits.

The article said it was data loss vulnerabilities, not security vulnerabilities. Ease up man.
Technically you're right, but I too was curious about the use of "vulnerability" in the headline. In tech circles the term "vulnerability" typically suggests a security problem

chelsel
Nov 6, 2007, 04:49 PM
Sounds like a plant to promote Time Machine more than anything.

Neuro
Nov 6, 2007, 04:49 PM
(Un)funnily enough, I've had to replace the internal drive on my iMac G5 20" with a brand new Seagate Barracuda drive twice. Both have failed horribly. The second one died a few days after installing Leopard (it was making funny noises before). All I can say is Thank 'F' for Time Machine and I won't be buying Seagate ever again...

I booted from the Leopard install disk, selected restore from Time Machine backup and pointed it at my external WD MyBook drive. Even on firewire 400, it restored and is working flawlessly.

aria505
Nov 6, 2007, 04:52 PM
At the school that I work at we have 500 Dell computers (a mixture of desktops and laptops) and atleast half of the HDs in the desktops died within the first year of use (all Maxtor drives). It was of course a bad batch of hard drives and we were able to get Dell to send us 3 boxes of hard drives after the first 25 died, but that was back when Dell's support was pretty good.

Since then we have had 70 laptops that have had their motherboards replaced because the power plug on the motherboard shorts out. and atleast 30 laptops where the video card has had to be replaced.

Bad batches of hardware happen to every company, but of course all these bad batches of dell products weren't thrown around in the news.

I am glad that it has been pointed out though so that Apple will possible do something proactive about the issue.

But of course now their thinking might be along the lines of "now that we have Leopard out with TimeMachine, it won't be as bad when people's drives fail."

The only way I see them doing a recall program is to have people ship their laptop to Apple so they can image your drive onto a new drive, then replace it and ship the laptop back to you. That is a lot more work than the battery recall. I don't think Apple will trust people to make their own copies of their files, dismantle their laptops, and then replace the drives.

The data lose that happens when moving directories sure should have already been fixed though if it has been around since Panther. But that is one reason why I always copy and paste and never just Move files between drives no matter whether I'm using Windows or Mac OS.

Goldenbear
Nov 6, 2007, 04:57 PM
In my experience with thousands of drives, Seagate ones are the worst drives money can buy. Noisy, hot and uttermost unreliable, breaking without previous notice. Really horrible. Besides and amazingly, they are more expensive (probably to pay the 5-year warranty plan!). Avoid them like a pest.

And every single Seagate I've purchased (six) is significantly quieter and runs much cooler than all of the WD drives I have (three). Also, one WD overheated and another died completely (2.5 years after purchase, very light usage).

So does this mean WD sucks? No. In fact, I've heard their recent drives are pretty quiet.

Every drive manufacturer ships a problem lot at some point. With hard drives, they've almost become commodity items. Just buy one with a good warranty, and BACK UP!

nostaws
Nov 6, 2007, 05:02 PM
I am an early macbook pro purchaser. I was in desperate need of a computer, and I was holding out as long as I possibly could (I had an expiring grant I needed to use up). I couldn't wait, and I bought one of the first intel macbook pros.

Overall, I have been very dissapointed with the hardware.

My power cord was messed up since day one.
My battery bubbled, and had to get a new one (apple replaced free).
The new one couldn't hold a charge and my laptop would die (not sleep or powersave) after about 5 - 10 min on the battery.
My screen hums (loudly) when not on full brightness.
My DVD drive burns so many coasters that I don't even use it anymore. Any time I have to burn I use my previously purchased Sony dual layer dvd burner.
Just started last week: when my computer gets hot enough it starts to whistle (pretty loud).
Anytime I view a flash animation on a web site my processor takes off, and the fans go crazy.
Now it seems my hard drive is suspect (I have the seagate one). -

I can respect the idea that it is a seagate problem and not a mac problem - but it is an apple machine, and they have a certain responsibility for choosing the drive. Also, if was just an isolated incident I could not complain, but a lot of the parts on my laptop are suspect.

I spend a lot of time on the apple discussion forums reading, but I haven't seen apple take responsibility for any of these common problems. It is just kind of hit or miss.

I will own another mac - not because of the hardware - but because of the OS.

Gee
Nov 6, 2007, 05:13 PM
I read this story as I'm sitting here with a failed Seagate drive out of my MBP, trying to recover my data.

Least I know now not to toss it when I'm done, just in case a refund is forthcoming...

CANEHDN
Nov 6, 2007, 05:13 PM
ANY hard disk can crash and lose data; that is why we have backups. I would never operate any computer, especially a laptop, without a good backup. Perhaps these drives are worse than average and should be fixed, but there is no reason for losing months or years of data due to this.

That's not the point of the article. It's saying there are actual flaws in the HD and HD flash. This is a bad thing and should be fixed by Apple. As far as the transfer errors, that should also be fixed. If Apple's known about this error for at least 3 years, they should have already fixed it.

Snide
Nov 6, 2007, 05:13 PM
My apologies if this has already been addressed...

Is it really too much trouble to scan a whopping 2 1/2 pages of posts?:rolleyes:

Back on topic, I forgot to mention that the dead Hitachi was 7 months old...
However, I had an 80 GB Hitachi running 24/7 in a Pismo for 2 years with no problems.

aznguy2772
Nov 6, 2007, 05:17 PM
This might have explained my HD crash over the summer and lo and behold, Apple replaces the faulty HD with another Seagate one with the same firmware as the "damaged" ones. Damn it, Apple... You're really falling off your rocker, huh??

A*ROCK
Nov 6, 2007, 05:21 PM
Is it really too much trouble to scan a whopping 2 1/2 pages of posts?:rolleyes:

Back on topic, I forgot to mention that the dead Hitachi was 7 months old...
However, I had an 80 GB Hitachi running 24/7 in a Pismo for 2 years with no problems.


Sinde,

I did review the pages prior to my post and did not see an answer to my question. But, because I am still a novice mac user I tossed the disclaimer out there in the event that it was addressed and I missed it.

Furthermore I fail to see how my question was, as you put it, off topic considering that the topic refers to MacBooks facing lost data risk and I my question DIRECTLY relates to a MacBook and data-risk re the harddrive.

-A

Sun Baked
Nov 6, 2007, 05:37 PM
Well, Hard drives in Macs have that tiny apple logo printed on them. So I guess they are made only for Apple?

They are made for everyone ... they are "packaged" for Apple's OEM supply chain.

Isn't unusual for a manufacturer to stick a clients part number and logo on a product in order to sell a product to them, not even unusual for them to reflash the ROM with the info.

Cannot remember how the Quantum Fireball drive flaw was handled ... and those drive were probably more likely to die.

oramaman
Nov 6, 2007, 05:40 PM
I'm finally going to get my first Macbook tomorrow. Hopefully this won't be a problem. I'll be sure to backup regularly.

extraextra
Nov 6, 2007, 05:44 PM
Phew, my HDD is a Toshiba. :p

Not sure how well this works because I've never had a HD die on me (so I therefore can't vouch on accuracy), but there is a program that will tell you if your HD is about to die.

SMARTReporter (http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/system_disk_utilities/smartreporter.html)

szark
Nov 6, 2007, 05:51 PM
I hope that the file move issue gets fixed soon, though I myself always copy files to the new drive and then delete them off the old drive.

And I'm sure the hard drive problem will get sorted out. If you read the Macworld article, Seagate apparently has just found out about the problem. So I'm sure they'll investigate and have a recall if necessary.

You know, you hear stuff like this all the time, but it's just anecdotal evidence. I've had great luck with Western Digital, other people avoid them like the plague. I wouldn't dare purchase Maxtor, but other people.. well, I guess not many people have good things to say about Maxtor. :)

Actually, I used Maxtor drives all the time when I used to build PCs for myself. Never had a problem with any of them. (Except for the very first 80 MB drive that I purchased, which was DOA.)

Of course, that was about 6 years ago, so they may have gone downhill since then. ;)

MrCrowbar
Nov 6, 2007, 05:52 PM
They are made for everyone ... they are "packaged" for Apple's OEM supply chain.

Isn't unusual for a manufacturer to stick a clients part number and logo on a product in order to sell a product to them, not even unusual for them to reflash the ROM with the info.

Cannot remember how the Quantum Fireball drive flaw was handled ... and those drive were probably more likely to die.

Makes sense. Do you know however a reliable way to check my drive's version? It's supposed to be numbers but System Profiler kinda gives me letters... ASCII letters :o

ChrisA
Nov 6, 2007, 06:10 PM
...there is a program that will tell you if your HD is about to die.
SMARTReporter (http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/system_disk_utilities/smartreporter.html)

This can catch certain types of problems but the one they are reporting here is a mechanical failure where something phyically breaks. The failure mode is that a head literally craters into the spining platter.

matticus008
Nov 6, 2007, 06:21 PM
My Macbook cam with a 89 G Hitachi, but I swapped it for a Seagate with twice the space.
[...]
I checked System Profile but my firmware version (revision) is "3.ALB". Can someone tell me if that is equal to 7.01 or where I can look up my firmware revision correctly?
That's your revision, and it is not 7.01. 7.01 is not equal to 3.ALB. You're not affected by this problem as reported.
Still, I don't like thinking my hard drive has known issues.
It doesn't. Keep in mind that if your hard drive fails, however, you will have to contact Seagate and not Apple since you're using third party hardware. Apple's warranty does not cover the isolated failure of an aftermarket part. Further, if there ARE any issues with your particular drive, Apple will not notify you, since they don't use that drive, so you'll have to keep an eye on Seagate for information.
Well, Hard drives in Macs have that tiny apple logo printed on them. So I guess they are made only for Apple?
Nope. They're standard Seagate hard drives of the model number disclosed, just as would be found in any system using that model. They're simply labeled for Apple (or by Apple, depending on the arrangement). The label is just for inventory and warranty purposes.

Makes sense. Do you know however a reliable way to check my drive's version? It's supposed to be numbers but System Profiler kinda gives me letters... ASCII letters :o
Why do you expect numbers? 3.ALB is your firmware version.

MrCrowbar
Nov 6, 2007, 06:37 PM
Why do you expect numbers? 3.ALB is your firmware version.

Well, it's unusual to have versions with more letters than number. But I checked on the drive itself (pulled it out) and, sure enough, that is my firmware version :-)

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/3946/picture2wq4.png

Lixivial
Nov 6, 2007, 06:47 PM
Thanks, Seagate.

My hard drive failure didn't even act like most hard drive failures. Mine just up and died -- one night it was working, and the next morning it wasn't. There weren't even any anomalies in performance or loud noises or any other things that would be indicative of impending doom.

I just love my late first gen MacBook. So my thanks go to you too, Apple.

matticus008
Nov 6, 2007, 06:50 PM
Well, it's unusual to have versions with more letters than number. But I checked on the drive itself (pulled it out) and, sure enough, that is my firmware version :-)
Just like the model number, serial number, and part number, it's just an alphanumeric string. Apart from being sequential, there's not really any relation to numbers (in the mathematical sense) involved. :)

taybo20
Nov 6, 2007, 07:01 PM
I have ST9120821AS with firmware revision 7.01.... I hope I am okay... I am actually using a refurbished MBP. Maybe the first time it was broken was because of the hardrive...:(

EDIT:

Just read the article at Retrodata and it looks as though I may be in for some problems down the road. That sucks. Anyone know if Apple is even acknowledging the problem? I guess it is a way for me to buy a new MBP...

MrCrowbar
Nov 6, 2007, 07:07 PM
I have ST9120821AS with firmware revision 7.01.... I hope I am okay... I am actually using a refurbished MBP. Maybe the first time it was broken was because of the hardrive...:(

Haha, you're doomed. :)
Backup, Backup, Backup...

Sweetbike40
Nov 6, 2007, 07:17 PM
Not quite true! My MBP has a Fujitsu so mine is not at risk from this guys claimed mass fault!

How do you find out what hd you have? I looked in about this computer but don't see what type of hd in in here. It's a new (2week old) 2.4 7200 hd 17".

MattJessop
Nov 6, 2007, 07:20 PM
Haha, you're doomed. :)
Backup, Backup, Backup...

That was a bit harsh :/ but maybe true.

Theres not much you can really do UNLESS the harddrive failed? It's very unlikely Apple would replace your harddrive on the basis of 'I think it's going to die soon'. Personally? I'd replace the HDD in your Mac, and regularly backup (Time Machine FTW) - but ideally, you should be backing up regularly anyway.

Unfortunately, theres very little basis of action you could take other than that, but at least it's not definite it will die :)

SoAP
Nov 6, 2007, 07:26 PM
Hah! I discovered this problem for myself when I heard my MacBook's drive clicking about a month ago. I made sure I had a good backup going because I was going to get the drive replaced when I did the Leopard upgrade. It literally died like two days before it happened. Still, I got a new Seagate drive. Guess what? It's already clicking. I've already ordered a different brand hard drive. I'm not especially interested in having to redo everything all over again. I'm just going to back up everything and restore it to the new drive. Hard drives are amazingly cheap these days, anyway.

jonnylink
Nov 6, 2007, 07:29 PM
checks hard drive :( .....nuts
guess I'd better start running the backup script nightly instead of weekly.

jonnylink
Nov 6, 2007, 07:41 PM
Hah! I discovered this problem for myself when I heard my MacBook's drive clicking about a month ago. I made sure I had a good backup going because I was going to get the drive replaced when I did the Leopard upgrade. It literally died like two days before it happened. Still, I got a new Seagate drive. Guess what? It's already clicking. I've already ordered a different brand hard drive. I'm not especially interested in having to redo everything all over again. I'm just going to back up everything and restore it to the new drive. Hard drives are amazingly cheap these days, anyway.

Replacing the hard drive yourself voids applecare if you have it. Plus, I don't want to pay for something if I shouldn't have to. I'm glad things are working out for you though.

oramaman
Nov 6, 2007, 07:44 PM
Are these faulty HDs still being used in the refreshed Macbooks?

Floop
Nov 6, 2007, 07:45 PM
Hi. I had a MacBook and this happened to me, with this model Seagate drive.

All my data was lost (no backups, I accept that is my own stupid fault). I sent it to two hard disc recovery companies, no dice. They indicated head crashes and caused platter scratching, exactly what this claim is about.

Apple replaced it under warranty.

This is not a 'one guy somewhere' issue. It clearly is a problem.

Floop
Nov 6, 2007, 07:48 PM
Replacing the hard drive yourself voids applecare if you have it. Plus, I don't want to pay for something if I shouldn't have to. I'm glad things are working out for you though.
No it doesn't, it's a user-replaceable part with information in the manual. You are completely fine doing it unless Apple want to claim that any problem you encounter is specifically tied to your incompetence at doing the hard drive replacement yourself. Simply doing it does NOT void the warranty.

DMann
Nov 6, 2007, 08:04 PM
Does anyone think that Apple would be the only manufacturer using these drives? Like, should Dell customers, HP customers, Gateway customers, Acer customers etc. etc. watch out as well?

Absolutely. Surprised to hear that it is Seagate manufacturing the defective drives - I've had La Cie fail on me more than four times for the same reason, never Seagate. Oh well....... the sooner we go programmable metallization cell (PMC) for storage, the better.

chriswg
Nov 6, 2007, 08:11 PM
I wonder if the problematic hard drives were already recalled... The following two threads describe that Apple recalled some of the 7200 RPM 160 GB Seagate drives in the SR MBP.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=345337&highlight=hard+drive+recall

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=345668&highlight=hard+drive+recall

It claims that some drives of specific serial numbers had problems and needed to be fixed. I don't know if these problems are related at all, but I thought I'd mention it. Anyone have thoughts on this?

jonnylink
Nov 6, 2007, 08:18 PM
No it doesn't, it's a user-replaceable part with information in the manual. You are completely fine doing it unless Apple want to claim that any problem you encounter is specifically tied to your incompetence at doing the hard drive replacement yourself. Simply doing it does NOT void the warranty.

I'm sorry but I think you are mistaken. Please see (http://www.apple.com/support/macbookpro/diy/order.html) for a list of user replaceable parts. Can you point to anything that specifically says it wont? Or even the page in the manual that has the information? I looked and didn't see it.

I've heard, and believe, that since the hard drive is buried in the MBP it is actually a pretty intense undertaking (from what it should be anyway).

bankshot
Nov 6, 2007, 08:20 PM
Wow, what took so long to acknowledge this problem with the drives? I've gone through two bad Seagate drives on my Macbook (replaced free of charge by Apple, of course). I needed to upgrade the space anyway, so I now have a Western Digital drive in there, and the (third) Seagate drive from Apple is now a seldom used backup drive in an external case.

As for the Finder, no surprise there. :rolleyes: I still do all my most important data copies/moves from the command line.

chriswg
Nov 6, 2007, 08:36 PM
@ jonnylink and Floop -- I believe you two may be talking about different products. The MacBook has a user-replaceable drive, but the MacBook Pro does not. Hope this helps.

PygmySurfer
Nov 6, 2007, 08:46 PM
Actually, I used Maxtor drives all the time when I used to build PCs for myself. Never had a problem with any of them. (Except for the very first 80 MB drive that I purchased, which was DOA.)

Of course, that was about 6 years ago, so they may have gone downhill since then. ;)

I've never heard anything good about Maxtor, and I've always avoided them. However, this just backs up my initial statement that these are all anecdotal cases, and everyone has a different experience.

jragosta
Nov 6, 2007, 08:51 PM
But of course now their thinking might be along the lines of "now that we have Leopard out with TimeMachine, it won't be as bad when people's drives fail."

How is Time Machine going to help you on a laptop if the hard disk fails? I guess it's remotely possible that you operate your laptop always connected to an external hard disk and store your TM backup on the external, but I somehow doubt that very many MacBook users do that. In fact, Time Machine might make the problem worse - since at least some people might rely on TM rather than backing up their system.

matticus008
Nov 6, 2007, 09:03 PM
No it doesn't, it's a user-replaceable part with information in the manual. You are completely fine doing it unless Apple want to claim that any problem you encounter is specifically tied to your incompetence at doing the hard drive replacement yourself. Simply doing it does NOT void the warranty.
It does not void your system warranty; if you replace the hard drive, your hard drive is no longer covered by your Apple warranty, however.

I've heard, and believe, that since the hard drive is buried in the MBP it is actually a pretty intense undertaking (from what it should be anyway).
Replacing a part does not void your system warranty unless the damage for which you are making a warranty claim can be traced back to the aftermarket part OR to the installation thereof. Your AppleCare warranty will remain in full effect if you replace the hard drive, with the exception that Apple is no longer responsible for hard drive failure since you are not using the warrantied (i.e. original or authorized replacement) drive.

coreyweb
Nov 6, 2007, 09:04 PM
Maybe thats what happened to my freakin' Macbook. It completely screwed up on me, and I am sending it in for repair.

After trying every possible thing to save my data and get it working again. Dang.....

Squozen
Nov 6, 2007, 09:04 PM
This is very interesting, I have a Mini with at 60GB Seagate and it was Leopard day and the drive died, was not a happy camper, computer was 370 days old Yes 5 days out of warranty, I phoned apple care and they told me it can't be the drive, now knowing this I'll be giving them a call back, to see if they might be willing to split the cost of the new drive that I purchased.

Of course it could be the drive, what a ridiculous thing for them to say. Drives can die at any time.

bevo
Nov 6, 2007, 09:04 PM
hrmmm

I have the mac mini core solo (upgraded the proc myself to a C2D). But my HD failed last august when my mini was a little over a year old. I had to go out and buy a replacement HD ....

Tossed the old HD though.

Assassin bug
Nov 6, 2007, 09:41 PM
I lost my entire dissertation in part because of a Seagate drive head crash. The drive was exactly 1 year old. Had to rebuild my dissertation from raw data again and lost many images that can not be replaced. I do not purchase Seagate drive anymore. I would not recommend you trust them either.

chadder007
Nov 6, 2007, 11:02 PM
And every single Seagate I've purchased (six) is significantly quieter and runs much cooler than all of the WD drives I have (three). Also, one WD overheated and another died completely (2.5 years after purchase, very light usage).

So does this mean WD sucks? No. In fact, I've heard their recent drives are pretty quiet.

Every drive manufacturer ships a problem lot at some point. With hard drives, they've almost become commodity items. Just buy one with a good warranty, and BACK UP!

Same here....had several WD's die and overheat on me. All replaced with Seagates too.
It also seems the larger the drives keep getting in storage space, the less reliable they are becoming.

DMann
Nov 6, 2007, 11:27 PM
So does this mean WD sucks? No. In fact, I've heard their recent drives are pretty quiet.

This is good to know. I returned a 1 Terabyte WD after the first two minutes of 'hair dryer' sound quality and volume. Would have kept it had I needed sound effects for standing nearby an airport runway...........

decadentdave
Nov 6, 2007, 11:28 PM
Same here....had several WD's die and overheat on me. All replaced with Seagates too.
It also seems the larger the drives keep getting in storage space, the less reliable they are becoming.

Western Digital drives suck period. I've had two fail on me completely. Fortunately in both instances I was able to recover my data through Disk Warrior. Definitely recommend Seagate.

techmonkey
Nov 6, 2007, 11:47 PM
For those who state "this happen to me" or "my drive died", where you doing the move operation like the article is talking about? Like many have said, hard drives fail. Seagate is a great company, one of the best hard drives to buy.

TEMPORARY SOLUTION:

Copy files to the new location, then delete the originals. Sure its more work, but I guess it would be safer, no ??

Foxglove9
Nov 7, 2007, 12:21 AM
causes of this are almost certainly either software errors or the power being turned off unexpectedly.

Oops. Yeah I noticed it after I accidently left the power cord out and left my mac running a few hours off the battery. Came back and it wad dead.

Good to know it wasn't the drive :)

Detektiv-Pinky
Nov 7, 2007, 01:37 AM
Remember to backup and stick it to Apple to get a replacement.

Move along now people. :rolleyes:

I would really like to do a Backup, however, since 10.4.10 my MBP no longer recognises my external USB-HD. Waiting desperatly for 10.4.11 to fix this issue...

Detektiv-Pinky
Nov 7, 2007, 01:44 AM
This can catch certain types of problems but the one they are reporting here is a mechanical failure where something phyically breaks. The failure mode is that a head literally craters into the spining platter.

Google has done a good study (http://www.engadget.com/2007/02/18/massive-google-hard-drive-survey-turns-up-very-interesting-thing/) on their own server-farms about HD failure patterns. It showed that you have a 50/50 chance that SMART actually detects the situation before disaster strikes. However, if SMART detects something it is usually reliable evidence that something is going to happen soon.

angelodmhl
Nov 7, 2007, 02:28 AM
My Blackbook's (May 2007 model) hard drive crashed after only 2 DAYS. It was a Seagate disk, and tech tool pro 4 is reporting 400 bad sectors on the disk. Yet, i could not get apple to replace it (they said it was my fault).
My brother's whitebook, also a May 2007 model, had a Fujitsu hd, and it crashed BADLY after a week or so, with all the creepy sounds and everything. The drive can no longer be recognised by any disk utility. I still couldn't get Apple to replace it.

After we both paid for new drives, my brother's new 120GB Seagate works just fine, while my Blackbook is on it's 4th hard drive replacement (which i pay for), and it keeps destroying blocks and sectors.

Apocalypse
Nov 7, 2007, 02:52 AM
It's very unfortunate that this happened to Seagate because they make good hard drives. They also offer a five year warranty while most other companies offer a one year warranty (sometimes longer than one, but I haven't seen five years from others). However no single hard drive maker is safe from such defects. There was a time when IBM released a run of defective DeskStar drives that came to be known as Death Stars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deskstar#Deskstar_75GXP_failures). I had two of them in use, and both failed eventually. Hard drives always have a chance to fail so you should always make backups.

By the way, something you may want to be aware of is that Seagate owns Maxtor, and Hitachi owns IBM's hard drive division now.

Ad Pro
Nov 7, 2007, 02:58 AM
With the bugs in Leopard, what happens - are they sorted by software updates? Or would you have to buy a later version of leopard to get rid of the initial bugs people are finding?

samh004
Nov 7, 2007, 03:32 AM
With the bugs in Leopard, what happens - are they sorted by software updates? Or would you have to buy a later version of leopard to get rid of the initial bugs people are finding?

Software updates (10.5.1, 10.5.2, 10.5.3...)

My sisters MacBook drive crashed, she took it to our local Australian Apple reseller and they replaced it free of charge. Obviously Apple paid. It was within a few months of purchase, she was gutted.

Ad Pro
Nov 7, 2007, 03:43 AM
Software updates (10.5.1, 10.5.2, 10.5.3...)



And these updates are free right?

winterspan
Nov 7, 2007, 03:44 AM
This exac thing happened to me. I lost so much data. I was stupid for not backing it up but then again being a college student doesn't really allow me to go out and buy an external. However x-mas is coming up so I think I might have to ask for a harddrive.

It's not my business, but unless you are paying all your tuition and costs going to school fulltime and working 40 hours a week to support it, I don't want to hear about you not being able to afford a $50 backup drive. There is just no reason that someone who has a brand new macbook can't get a cheapo USB drive to save their important files. In some cases, a USB stick will do the job.
If you are at a university with a good internet speed, you could even use one of those free 10-20GB backup websites... it's not that hard to avoid a disaster.

And about the lady in the article who lost "months" worth of "critical work files".... this is the same type of stupidity and negligence that causes millions of people to have their Social Security Numbers exposed each year when some "analyst" has 60GB of a companies customer's personal data stored on a laptop WITHOUT even basic encryption stolen from a car.....
AHHHHH... lol

winterspan
Nov 7, 2007, 04:14 AM
I agree with you on the headline trying to make it seem like this is all Apple. It could be anyone that uses this drive. As far as the data loss thing goes and that woman, not everyone backs up their drives. Yes it's a smart thing to do (I do myself) but not every computer user knows to do this, or even how. So telling her to "***** herself" is a bit extreme.

If this woman is working with "critical business data" then she has NO EXCUSE. its incredibly simple to back things up.. copy and paste. My mom does it for god sakes and she just learned the concept of icons and windows.

winterspan
Nov 7, 2007, 04:32 AM
How is Time Machine going to help you on a laptop if the hard disk fails? I guess it's remotely possible that you operate your laptop always connected to an external hard disk and store your TM backup on the external, but I somehow doubt that very many MacBook users do that. In fact, Time Machine might make the problem worse - since at least some people might rely on TM rather than backing up their system.

As opposed to storing your "TM backup" on the same drive??
Ummm in addition to the file system "snapshot" tricks, time machine is Leopards backup solution is it not?? I'm not being condescending, I just don't own Leopard .

winterspan
Nov 7, 2007, 04:35 AM
I lost my entire dissertation in part because of a Seagate drive head crash. The drive was exactly 1 year old. Had to rebuild my dissertation from raw data again and lost many images that can not be replaced. I do not purchase Seagate drive anymore. I would not recommend you trust them either.

You didn't have *ANY* backup of a DISSERTATION????? Not even an online copy or a USB stick?? Are you crazy? Screw defending your dissertation, Just that fact should keep you from receiving a PHD!!! :eek:

dann e b
Nov 7, 2007, 06:39 AM
I have been following this story as I work for a data recovery company. We have seen an unusual amount of these seagate drives. It is not just apple that is using them. This was covered recently in another thread:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=348100&page=2

Also we have some photos of the damage on our blog. It shows the damage on the inner and outer parts of the disc:

Data Recovery Blog (http://data-recovery-and-hard-drive-info.blogspot.com/2007/07/seagate-momentus-drive-failures.html)

Also we are quite suprised that this fault is happening with Seagate drives as they are usually not prone to problems as much as some other drives. (We can usually recover from them is what I mean)

goosnarrggh
Nov 7, 2007, 07:19 AM
This might have explained my HD crash over the summer and lo and behold, Apple replaces the faulty HD with another Seagate one with the same firmware as the "damaged" ones. Damn it, Apple... You're really falling off your rocker, huh??

At this stage, all we have is the observation that *some* hard drives running firmware version 7.01 happen to have been alleged to have exhibited this behaviour. This is not enough evidence to prove that firmware version 7.01 is itself responsible for the problem.

It may be that there was an inherent hardware design flaw, but this particular revision of the hardware design coincidentally happens to have been used in conjunction with firmware version 7.01 - but if firmware version 7.01 had been used with a different hardware revision, it's possible that there might not have been any problems. Or maybe there was a bad day at the factory and this is just a case of a batch of drives with manufacturing errors.

Don't panic about your drive. But definitely do perform the best practice of regularly maintaining up-to-date backups of your data - advice I think would be appropriate even if there weren't any allegations of faulty drives.

milo
Nov 7, 2007, 08:01 AM
This might have explained my HD crash over the summer and lo and behold, Apple replaces the faulty HD with another Seagate one with the same firmware as the "damaged" ones. Damn it, Apple... You're really falling off your rocker, huh??

This issue just came to light now. How was apple supposed to know that this drive was bad months ago if seagate is only telling them about it now?

How is Time Machine going to help you on a laptop if the hard disk fails? I guess it's remotely possible that you operate your laptop always connected to an external hard disk and store your TM backup on the external, but I somehow doubt that very many MacBook users do that. In fact, Time Machine might make the problem worse - since at least some people might rely on TM rather than backing up their system.

Time machine IS backing up your system. If you've run time machine and your boot drive crashes, you just put in a new drive, install the OS, restore from your external TM backup, and your drive will be in the exact state it was in at the time of the last backup. Relying on TM is a good thing to do as long as you make it available to run often enough.

b3studios
Nov 7, 2007, 08:05 AM
but, I just had a drive crash on me. But it wasn't the Seagate drive that came with my macbook, it was a larger WD drive.

I had a bootable backup on a firewire external drive, using superduper!. With this setup, i would use smart update and keep an updated copy of my drive every night.

On Monday I decided to not take chances and backup the system. Since SuperDuper! isn't fully mac compatible yet, I decided to go with Carbon Copy Cloner.

This is when disaster struck. CCC erased the backup partition and started to copy over my files. About 1 hr in the whole system froze for about 40min, then shut down.

When I tried to restart i got the flashing folder with a "?". the drive would not be recognized. To make matters worse, what had been my bootable backup, was now left with just system files. None of my user files, personal documents, pictures, movies, music, etc. got copied when the WD drive crashed.

I lost all of my data.

I tried Disk Warrior, but it would not even see the drive...

macFanDave
Nov 7, 2007, 08:32 AM
First, thanks.

1) To those who suggested that the Seagate HD's are exclusively designed for Apple: if it is true, then it should have been prominently mentioned in the story. It was not and many other posters are refuting your claim that the Seagate HD in questioned is made for Apple only.

2) To those who think Apple is responsible to pick quality components: Yes, you are correct. Seagate has a reputation for quality. One thing that I did not get from this story is whether this catastrophe is inherent to the fundamental design of this model, or if only certain production runs are affected. If that model were flawed from the beginning, Apple would bear responsibility, but if it is a sporadic production issue, the problem really lies with Seagate.

3) To the person who thought that my attitude toward the woman who lost months of "critical data" and hadn't backed up was extreme: I agree, but moderate responses on forums like this don't get many replies and the issue is not thoroughly discussed. To paraphrase Barry Goldwater (not a hero of mine) Extremism in the pursuit of critical discussion is no vice!

embee
Nov 7, 2007, 09:46 AM
Any suggestions for finding out what type of drives new MacBook Pros use? I'm looking at a 15-inch, 2.2Mhz w/ 120 GB HD.

Somewhat related - do I understand that the warranty is voided if a user swaps out the HD on MacBook Pros?

Thanks all.

sanford
Nov 7, 2007, 10:22 AM
Can someone explain the first part about the data-moving code in English?

As for the second part, the disk gouge, like a real "head crash" instead of the generic way people use the word "crash" today, I had this happen to me with a Seagate 2.5" 120GB SATA about six weeks ago, on a MacBook. It was an after-market retail-kit upgrade drive, and Seagate has a 5-year warranty, apparently no questions asked, as they had me do no trouble-shooting, process was fast and they offer advance replace with included return freight cost for just about what it would cost you to wait for the exchange drive, then send back the dead drive, paying freight w/ insurance yourself. Out of stock when I called on Thursday. Shipped Friday. Had it that Monday.

Now I have a refurb 120GB from Seagate with four years remaining on the warranty. I'm not going to crack the MacBook and pull the drive off the sled to find out if it was made in China -- it probably was, no matter what -- but from System Profiler I get:

Capacity: 111.79 GB
Model: ST9120821AS
Revision: 3.04

Now is "revision" the firmware revision number? You'd expect even though a refurb it would be the same or later firmware revision than 7.01, a higher number. Not all the way back to 3.04. Unless they've isolated the firmware as the problem and rolled back. Or perhaps it's the same retail part SKU, but it's actually a different drive, and 3.04 is the latest and greatest in what is actually a completely different piece of equipment.

You know, I noticed Seagate used to make the same retail kit in a 160GB, but they don't sell it anymore. Maybe that run of 120s and 160s had this defect, they discovered it, they've replaced the 120 in the 2.5" SATA line, both at retail and in warranty exchange, but have yet to replace the 160.

Also, even though my exchange was marked "refurb", that could simply mean it was sold in a retail kit, opened, then returned to place of retail purchase unused. Or it could be a brand new retail part period; refurb noted only because they have the right to replace with a factory refurb and you might get one. Who knows.

Not that I'm exactly worried about it. I have a complete, full-disk hourly Time Machine back-up on an external FW drive going back, well, only 2.5 weeks, but that's only as long as Time Machine has been round. Plenty of room for *at least* a month of hourly back-ups -- and that's with only half the drive partitioned for Time Machine -- but in the case of catastrophic failure, like head-gouge, the last full restore snapshot is the only thing that matters.

andrewface
Nov 7, 2007, 10:48 AM
I read this story as I'm sitting here with a failed Seagate drive out of my MBP, trying to recover my data.

Least I know now not to toss it when I'm done, just in case a refund is forthcoming...

im in the same boat...im holding onto my old one! i hope they do something cause one year isnt very long for a hdd life...mines fried i bought a new seagate works ok so far...

MrCrowbar
Nov 7, 2007, 12:29 PM
Can someone explain the first part about the data-moving code in English?

As for the second part, the disk gouge, like a real "head crash" instead of the generic way people use the word "crash" today, I had this happen to me with a Seagate 2.5" 120GB SATA about six weeks ago, on a MacBook. It was an after-market retail-kit upgrade drive, and Seagate has a 5-year warranty, apparently no questions asked, as they had me do no trouble-shooting, process was fast and they offer advance replace with included return freight cost for just about what it would cost you to wait for the exchange drive, then send back the dead drive, paying freight w/ insurance yourself. Out of stock when I called on Thursday. Shipped Friday. Had it that Monday.

Now I have a refurb 120GB from Seagate with four years remaining on the warranty. I'm not going to crack the MacBook and pull the drive off the sled to find out if it was made in China -- it probably was, no matter what -- but from System Profiler I get:

Capacity: 111.79 GB
Model: ST9120821AS
Revision: 3.04

Now is "revision" the firmware revision number? You'd expect even though a refurb it would be the same or later firmware revision than 7.01, a higher number. Not all the way back to 3.04. Unless they've isolated the firmware as the problem and rolled back. Or perhaps it's the same retail part SKU, but it's actually a different drive, and 3.04 is the latest and greatest in what is actually a completely different piece of equipment.

You know, I noticed Seagate used to make the same retail kit in a 160GB, but they don't sell it anymore. Maybe that run of 120s and 160s had this defect, they discovered it, they've replaced the 120 in the 2.5" SATA line, both at retail and in warranty exchange, but have yet to replace the 160.

Also, even though my exchange was marked "refurb", that could simply mean it was sold in a retail kit, opened, then returned to place of retail purchase unused. Or it could be a brand new retail part period; refurb noted only because they have the right to replace with a factory refurb and you might get one. Who knows.

Not that I'm exactly worried about it. I have a complete, full-disk hourly Time Machine back-up on an external FW drive going back, well, only 2.5 weeks, but that's only as long as Time Machine has been round. Plenty of room for *at least* a month of hourly back-ups -- and that's with only half the drive partitioned for Time Machine -- but in the case of catastrophic failure, like head-gouge, the last full restore snapshot is the only thing that matters.

I have that same Seagate Drive, just the 160 GB Version. "3.04" is indeed your firmware version. Mine is "3.ALB". I even pulled out my hard drive to confirm, because letters in version numbering seemed odd to me, but it was actually written on the drive's label. Your drive is indeed made in China but does not have the bad firmware.

I wouldn't rely 100% on time machine. People have had problems reliably restoring from it. iCal still needs to be backed up by hand. I regularly copy my documents and the library inside my home folder over to an external. That should cover all your critical document, Mail-Library and application settings. Doesn't take up that much space either, so you can burn it to a DVD from time to time in case there's an electrical surge and all your hard drives die simultaneously, that includes your Time Machine Backup drive. Optical media (the CDs and DVDs you burn yourself) usually rot within 5 years but at least they don't lose data if you drop them or expose them to strong electromagnetic fields. I have a friend who had her small computer on top of her big ass subwoofer. I told her to keep those separated, but she wouldn't listen... Lost all her data recently :-)

Bottom of line: Don't trust hard drives. Back 'em up. Think of the worst thing that could happen, if you lose your important data as a result, you're not safe enough. If you make money with your computers, burn the stuff on discs and store those in a different location (family, bank). So if your house burns down, you're not ruined totally.

jragosta
Nov 7, 2007, 12:54 PM
As opposed to storing your "TM backup" on the same drive??
Ummm in addition to the file system "snapshot" tricks, time machine is Leopards backup solution is it not?? I'm not being condescending, I just don't own Leopard .

Since we're talking about a laptop, having a separate drive available for backup isn't all that convenient. For TimeMachine - which expects the extra drive to be available all the time, it's even less convenient.

And, no, TimeMachine is NOT Leopard's backup solution. Backup.app is still included with Leopard. Not to mention, of course, that you're free to backup your files any way you wish - you aren't limited to Apple's solution.

My comment still stands - TimeMachine is not an acceptable backup method on a laptop since a hard disk crash will also take out your TimeMachine files.

jragosta
Nov 7, 2007, 12:57 PM
Time machine IS backing up your system. If you've run time machine and your boot drive crashes, you just put in a new drive, install the OS, restore from your external TM backup, and your drive will be in the exact state it was in at the time of the last backup. Relying on TM is a good thing to do as long as you make it available to run often enough.

Relying on TM for a laptop is silly. TM is only useful IF you have it constantly connected to an external drive - which is very unusual for most laptop users.

Yes, if your computer is connected to an external drive and you use TM, that's a good solution (although I would still advocate periodic full backups of your important files). My point is that this is very rare for laptop users, not that it was impossible.

mulze22
Nov 7, 2007, 01:42 PM
It's not my business, but unless you are paying all your tuition and costs going to school fulltime and working 40 hours a week to support it, I don't want to hear about you not being able to afford a $50 backup drive. There is just no reason that someone who has a brand new macbook can't get a cheapo USB drive to save their important files. In some cases, a USB stick will do the job.
If you are at a university with a good internet speed, you could even use one of those free 10-20GB backup websites... it's not that hard to avoid a disaster.

And about the lady in the article who lost "months" worth of "critical work files".... this is the same type of stupidity and negligence that causes millions of people to have their Social Security Numbers exposed each year when some "analyst" has 60GB of a companies customer's personal data stored on a laptop WITHOUT even basic encryption stolen from a car.....
AHHHHH... lol

If you don't want to hear about it then you don't have to read it and in fact you don't even have to comment on it. I'm not the one who bought the macbook so therefore you wouldn't know what I could or couldn't afford.

vyarmak
Nov 7, 2007, 01:49 PM
Got a Seagate drive crashed a week ago on MacBook...

Model: ST98823AS
FW: 7.01

morespce54
Nov 7, 2007, 04:21 PM
Relying on TM for a laptop is silly. TM is only useful IF you have it constantly connected to an external drive - which is very unusual for most laptop users.

Maybe I don't get it, but why TM wouldn't be a (partial) backup solution for laptop users? As far as I know, you can be connected only a few times a week to your external HD and only then Time Machine will backup your stuff. Unless you use a Seagate (;)) or create DVD sized documents regularly, Time Machine should be okay on a weekly base for photos and Word documents.

I know, it kind of defeat the purpose of Time Machine, but still, it's a basic backup solution.

Of course, there is *no* backup solution that is full-proof, therefore the need to use more than one solution for backup!


And don't forget, you never know if your backup solution is a good one until you need to restore your backup! ;)

milo
Nov 7, 2007, 04:41 PM
Since we're talking about a laptop, having a separate drive available for backup isn't all that convenient. For TimeMachine - which expects the extra drive to be available all the time, it's even less convenient.

And, no, TimeMachine is NOT Leopard's backup solution. Backup.app is still included with Leopard. Not to mention, of course, that you're free to backup your files any way you wish - you aren't limited to Apple's solution.

TM doesn't expect the drive to be there all the time, it has been designed with laptops in mind and will perform the backup any time the external drive is connected. While using an external drive for a laptop isn't necessarily convenient, it's a necessity whether you use TM or any other method. What else would you be backing up to, a burned stack of DVD's?

And while other backup options are possible with leopard, there's no question that it is the most prominently featured one and will be used the most widely.

My comment still stands - TimeMachine is not an acceptable backup method on a laptop since a hard disk crash will also take out your TimeMachine files.

I have no idea where you got that, but it's completely wrong. You back up with TM to a second drive. If your first drive crashes, you restore via TM from the second drive. Same as any other backup method. What method do you have in mind that 1) doesn't require a second drive AND 2) preserves your files when your laptop drive crashes?

Relying on TM for a laptop is silly. TM is only useful IF you have it constantly connected to an external drive - which is very unusual for most laptop users.

TM is only useful if you connect it PERIODICALLY to your backup drive. Which is exactly the same as any other backup scheme. You obviously don't understand how TM works, it's been discussed here in detail. It will back up your machine whenever you connect, there's no need to have it hooked up constantly.

Any backup method requires a second drive, in a laptop that will be an external one. In this respect TM is no different than anything else, and if you use TM, you'll be able to restore your system to the state it was in when you backed up. Again, same as any other full backup (with some additional perks as well).

Maybe I don't get it, but why TM wouldn't be a (partial) backup solution for laptop users? As far as I know, you can be connected only a few times a week to your external HD and only then Time Machine will backup your stuff. Unless you use a Seagate (;)) or create DVD sized documents regularly, Time Machine should be okay on a weekly base for photos and Word documents.

I know, it kind of defeat the purpose of Time Machine, but still, it's a basic backup solution.

What's partial about doing that? It backs up everything on your drive. Sure, it doesn't backup constantly, but I don't know of any backup method that does. Even on a desktop mac, TM only backs up every hour or so, so as with any backup system, you will lose anything new since your last backup.

Floop
Nov 7, 2007, 05:11 PM
I'm sorry but I think you are mistaken
Sorry Jonny, we were at crossed purposes. I was talking about a MacBook (as per the thread) but I now realise you were talking about a MacBook Pro. Replacing the HD on a MacBook Pro is indeed a PITA and definitely would void your warranty as you suggest, whereas replacing the HD on a MacBook is easy as pie.

cleanup
Nov 7, 2007, 05:32 PM
Wow, now I'm worried. I have a Seagate drive in my MacBook and I have noticed odd behaviour, mostly apps. crashing when i try to save something (ie. write it to disk). it's extremely frustrating...

for backing up, i just drag and drop the files that i want to my external drive.

would you guys recommend mirroring the drive with some sort of software? what software would you recommend?

thanks!

sanford
Nov 7, 2007, 05:35 PM
Crowbar,

Thanks for the hard drive firmware confirmation. I suspect that first 120GB was a 7.01 firmware revision, as it was a rock and then it is just died never to boot again. Good to know no repeat of defective firmware in the replacement.

Thanks for the back-up advice, too. Although I still run dailies on the items you mention, like iCal and critical documents that are changing every day, to my .mac back-up, off-site. And although previous Backup and TM seem to work fine for iPhoto -- Backup certainly did as I always ran it to a hard drive back-up right after I offloaded photos from the camera, and I lost nothing in the restore to both my spare internal HDD and then the replacement 120GB HDD.

And every once in a while I back up the photos to a couple DVDs.

I have that same Seagate Drive, just the 160 GB Version. "3.04" is indeed your firmware version. Mine is "3.ALB". I even pulled out my hard drive to confirm, because letters in version numbering seemed odd to me, but it was actually written on the drive's label. Your drive is indeed made in China but does not have the bad firmware.

I wouldn't rely 100% on time machine. People have had problems reliably restoring from it. iCal still needs to be backed up by hand. I regularly copy my documents and the library inside my home folder over to an external. That should cover all your critical document, Mail-Library and application settings. Doesn't take up that much space either, so you can burn it to a DVD from time to time in case there's an electrical surge and all your hard drives die simultaneously, that includes your Time Machine Backup drive. Optical media (the CDs and DVDs you burn yourself) usually rot within 5 years but at least they don't lose data if you drop them or expose them to strong electromagnetic fields. I have a friend who had her small computer on top of her big ass subwoofer. I told her to keep those separated, but she wouldn't listen... Lost all her data recently :-)

Bottom of line: Don't trust hard drives. Back 'em up. Think of the worst thing that could happen, if you lose your important data as a result, you're not safe enough. If you make money with your computers, burn the stuff on discs and store those in a different location (family, bank). So if your house burns down, you're not ruined totally.

sanford
Nov 7, 2007, 05:37 PM
Wow, now I'm worried. I have a Seagate drive in my MacBook and I have noticed odd behaviour, mostly apps. crashing when i try to save something (ie. write it to disk). it's extremely frustrating...

for backing up, i just drag and drop the files that i want to my external drive.

would you guys recommend mirroring the drive with some sort of software? what software would you recommend?

thanks!

If it's the head-crash issue, there seems to be no warning. It just works until the MacBook freezes and then never boots again.

RickNTpa
Nov 7, 2007, 07:10 PM
I have one of these very drives right now in from my dad's macbook pro.

He shipped it out to me to see if I could recover anything, then low and behold I see this story today.

It would be great if Seagate or Apple stepped up to offer a replacement option. His is having some definite issues here and he didn't get to backup his data... ARGH!!

Lessons learned... We'll have to see what Apple and Seagate do here...

cleanup
Nov 7, 2007, 07:31 PM
Would you guys recommend manually backing up or using some sort of software to mirror my drive?

Also, how old are these drives that have failed? What increases the risk of them failing? Should I buy Applecare? thanks... :(

Assassin bug
Nov 7, 2007, 10:07 PM
For those who state "this happen to me" or "my drive died", where you doing the move operation like the article is talking about? Like many have said, hard drives fail. Seagate is a great company, one of the best hard drives to buy.


No. In fact I wasn't even at the computer when the drive head crashed! Go figure. This was on Dell comp. not a Mac, but I don't think that had anything to do with the drive failing after 1-year of use.

Retrodata
Nov 8, 2007, 02:41 AM
First, thanks.

1) To those who suggested that the Seagate HD's are exclusively designed for Apple: if it is true, then it should have been prominently mentioned in the story. It was not and many other posters are refuting your claim that the Seagate HD in questioned is made for Apple only.

2) To those who think Apple is responsible to pick quality components: Yes, you are correct. Seagate has a reputation for quality. One thing that I did not get from this story is whether this catastrophe is inherent to the fundamental design of this model, or if only certain production runs are affected. If that model were flawed from the beginning, Apple would bear responsibility, but if it is a sporadic production issue, the problem really lies with Seagate.

3) To the person who thought that my attitude toward the woman who lost months of "critical data" and hadn't backed up was extreme: I agree, but moderate responses on forums like this don't get many replies and the issue is not thoroughly discussed. To paraphrase Barry Goldwater (not a hero of mine) Extremism in the pursuit of critical discussion is no vice!

This thread was pointed out to me last night.

I have not seen this drive, with firmware 7.01, used in anything other than an Apple computer. As such, I believe it may be a "special production run" exclusively for Apple.

Apple are selling computers with this drive; that puts the issue of responsibility and liability fairly and squarely on Apple's shoulders, wide they may be. That said, Seagate should have stepped in - but that could be construed as stepping on Apple's toes.

Seagate _had_ a reputation for quality. However, in recent months (perhaps the last year) I have seen sufficient failures across their entire range of hard drives to drop them from my list of reliable storage devices.

Perhaps Seagate's purchase of Maxtor marked the beginning of the end of Seagate's recent run of reliability?

Duncan Clarke
Retrodata UK

RickNTpa
Nov 8, 2007, 05:21 AM
This thread was pointed out to me last night.

I have not seen this drive, with firmware 7.01, used in anything other than an Apple computer. As such, I believe it may be a "special production run" exclusively for Apple.

Apple are selling computers with this drive; that puts the issue of responsibility and liability fairly and squarely on Apple's shoulders, wide they may be. That said, Seagate should have stepped in - but that could be construed as stepping on Apple's toes.

Seagate _had_ a reputation for quality. However, in recent months (perhaps the last year) I have seen sufficient failures across their entire range of hard drives to drop them from my list of reliable storage devices.

Perhaps Seagate's purchase of Maxtor marked the beginning of the end of Seagate's recent run of reliability?

Duncan Clarke
Retrodata UK

This is interesting and I didn't know that Seagate had made this purchase. We had a HUGE problem at work with Maxtor drives that were shipped in HP machines a few years ago. We had failures everywhere. Both HP and Maxtor denied things. Once we cleared out the Maxtor's the problem went away too......

Something else that caught my eye... Made in China... The U.S. has been seeing a LOT of recalls from China... What is going on over there....

Sesshi
Nov 8, 2007, 05:42 AM
As a matter of interest, when was Apple and Seagate made aware by Retrodata about this problem?

dann e b
Nov 8, 2007, 08:38 AM
As a matter of interest, when was Apple and Seagate made aware by Retrodata about this problem?
Most data recovery companies are aware of this problem but who can we contact? steve@mac.com never works! At work we have tried to notify apple of similar issues in the past but there is no point of contact for this sort of thing. Even the guys at the apple store don't have the contacts.

Retrodata
Nov 8, 2007, 09:47 AM
As a matter of interest, when was Apple and Seagate made aware by Retrodata about this problem?

I first notified the UK press on 07 January 2007, having tracked this particular firmware revision for the previous six months.

There's absolutely no point in targeting the manufacturer directly - most likely such correspondence would be swept under the digital carpet.


Duncan Clarke
Retrodata

charityjf
Nov 8, 2007, 07:48 PM
Hi,

I've been reading a bit about this tonight & I don't think I need to worry as I have a Toshiba drive (and a back-up.)

But I saw on another news story about this that you should look in System Profiler under 'Serial-ATA' to see if you have a Seagate drive - and when I did that, it just said "No information found." I found out I have a Toshiba drive by looking under 'ATA' instead, but I'm wondering why there was no info under Serial-ATA - does this mean there's anything wrong or is it ok?

Would appreciate a reply. Thanks.

Furrybeagle
Nov 8, 2007, 08:25 PM
Hi,

I've been reading a bit about this tonight & I don't think I need to worry as I have a Toshiba drive (and a back-up.)

But I saw on another news story about this that you should look in System Profiler under 'Serial-ATA' to see if you have a Seagate drive - and when I did that, it just said "No information found." I found out I have a Toshiba drive by looking under 'ATA' instead, but I'm wondering why there was no info under Serial-ATA - does this mean there's anything wrong or is it ok?

Would appreciate a reply. Thanks.

charityjf, there is nothing to worry about. Serial-ATA (SATA) and ATA (sometimes referred to Parallel ATA to differentiate it) are both interfaces for connecting to drives. However, Serial-ATA is the successor to ATA. ATA has been in use for a number of years, whereas SATA is new, and Apple has only been using it for the past year or so (in fact, they may have switched to SATA in the Intel Macs, but don’t quote me on that).

charityjf
Nov 8, 2007, 08:40 PM
charityjf, there is nothing to worry about. Serial-ATA (SATA) and ATA (sometimes referred to Parallel ATA to differentiate it) are both interfaces for connecting to drives. However, Serial-ATA is the successor to ATA. ATA has been in use for a number of years, whereas SATA is new, and Apple has only been using it for the past year or so (in fact, they may have switched to SATA in the Intel Macs, but don’t quote me on that).

Thanks Furrybeagle, very kind of you to reply. That also explains why my mum and sister's laptops (both newer than mine) do have things show up under Serial ATA.

John Musbach
Nov 8, 2007, 10:22 PM
A U.K.-based data-recovery organization has warned Apple Macbook users that they risk potential data loss due to a design flaw on certain hard drives.

Retrodata has come across "many dozens" of failures affecting Seagate Technology LLC 2.5-in. Serial Advanced Technology Attachment drives, commonly found in laptops such as the MacBook or MacBook Pro. Apple Inc. desktops that use laptop-oriented components, such as the Mac Mini, are also at risk.

"The read/write heads are detaching from the arm and plowing deep gouges into the magnetic platter," explained Retrodata Managing Director Duncan Clarke. "The damage is mostly on the inner tracks, but some scratches are on the outer track -- Track 0 -- and once that happens, the drive is normally beyond repair."
:eek:
http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9045520
1) Boy am I glad my macbook has a toshiba drive

TOSHIBA MK2035GSS:

Capacity: 186.31 GB
Model: TOSHIBA MK2035GSS
Revision: DK021B
Serial Number: 67FKF2D8S
Native Command Queuing: Yes
Queue Depth: 4
Removable Media: No
Detachable Drive: No
BSD Name: disk0
Mac OS 9 Drivers: No
Partition Map Type: GPT (GUID Partition Table)
S.M.A.R.T. status: Verified
Volumes:
Macintosh HD:
Capacity: 185.99 GB
Available: 123.37 GB
Writable: Yes
File System: Journaled HFS+
BSD Name: disk0s2
Mount Point: /

2) This is why I always copy my data when transferring data to another volume, especially network volumes. Only after I have verified that the transfer is ok myself do I ever delete the source data.

johncallen
Nov 9, 2007, 04:10 PM
I own a MacBook which the hard drive crashed 1 week after the warranty ran out. It is a Seagate with firmware version 7.01.


Why, if Seagate offers a 3 year warranty on the drive, doesn't apple provide the same. Seagate won't replace it since it is Apple branded.

scott523
Nov 9, 2007, 04:33 PM
Wow I'm so glad I bought my own Seagate 120GB HDD, it has a revision number of 3.04. :D

DMann
Nov 9, 2007, 06:55 PM
I own a MacBook which the hard drive crashed 1 week after the warranty ran out. It is a Seagate with firmware version 7.01.


Why, if Seagate offers a 3 year warranty on the drive, doesn't apple provide the same. Seagate won't replace it since it is Apple branded.

This is because the Seagate is being used in an enclosure which Seagate has no control over. (laptop - ventilation - heat issues) Purchasing Apple Care is a good move when dealing with notebooks, iMacs, iPods, etc. If you haven't reported the problem to Apple yet, you might try ordering Apple Care for your notebook, and then bringing it in for repair. 1 year seems a bit short for the life span of an internal hard drive.

big.birdd
Nov 9, 2007, 07:41 PM
wow, nice gauges out of those drives

DMann
Nov 9, 2007, 07:52 PM
wow, nice gauges out of those drives

Gauges or gouges?

matticus008
Nov 11, 2007, 05:03 PM
Why, if Seagate offers a 3 year warranty on the drive, doesn't apple provide the same. Seagate won't replace it since it is Apple branded.
Seagate doesn't offer a 3 year warranty on the drive. Seagate OEM warranties are 90 days or 1 year, depending on the product. Part of the markup you pay when you buy a retail packaged drive covers the greater prorated warranty costs. It's not just cables, printed manuals, and shiny boxes--in fact, those are relatively minor details compared to the retail warranties.

It's also not the same as buying a "white box" OEM product, since large customers (Apple, HP, etc.) will negotiate their own terms of warranty coverage as part of their purchase. As far as the end user is concerned, the drives leave Seagate with no warranty whatsoever. Apple's (or HP's, as the case may be) warranty is the one provided to you.

ncprius
Nov 14, 2007, 12:37 PM
From the sound of it, the drives fail without warning, but if you are lucky SmartReporter might give you a final warning... ( Note: as of Nov 13, 2007 is says it's .mac site is down): http://homepage.mac.com/julianmayer/
I have one of the drives and I'm going to run smartctl to test if every 4 hours.

Many folks close the lid of macbook before it is really asleep, and hard-drive is still running for maybe 10-20 seconds. A quicker sleep is possible by turning off the deep-sleep feature (per below), as long as you realize that if battery goes dead, then upon power return it will boot from scratch, losing any files you had open and unsaved.

Below are some quotes about DeepSleep from
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/10/30/apple_seagate_drive_warning/
"To be fair to Apple, it does warn users not to move the machine until this process is complete - at which point the light on the lid catch begins to pulsate - but it's easy for users to grab their laptops and go as soon as the lid's down.

Unfortunately, at that point, the drive's heads may by busily moving back and forth across the platters, and any movement risks the two physically touching, with the potential of data loss and even disc damage of the kind described by Retrodata. This is true of all hard disks, as proponents of solid-state storage like to point out."

Mac users can disable Safe Sleep by following Mac OS X Hints' procedure:
http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20070302210328928

A dashboard widget and command-line scripts are free at:
http://deepsleep.free.fr/
though I have not tested in non-admin account.

However, doing so risks losing data from memory should the laptop's power supply be cut."

GonHiDi
Nov 14, 2007, 02:21 PM
Hello to everybody,

I feel somewhat opportunistic and awkward to make my first post to the forums be a complaint, but I hope that at least I will not break the spirit of the place.

Regarding the failing Seagate drives, common to all complaints that I have read is that it is Macbooks which are having the problems, and in particular the older ones. While this might be because the failure occurs over a mean time of one year, it might also be that the Seagate model is not the cause of the drive failures but rather a symptom. For example, in the Apple Discussion topic "Hard drive failure??" (http://discussions.apple.com/message.jspa?messageID=5688442) a user complains that he has gone through several drives of different brands, while here a Macbook Pro user points out he has one of the possibly defective models but doesn't say that his is broken.

Of course, the above observations cannot be called evidence since they lack statistical significance. The user whose many hard drives failed could be mishandling his laptop by not following the precautions that DeepSleep requires and the Macbook Pro user's drive might have gotten lucky or be about to die (I dearly hope not!).

It would be interesting that those whose drives have failed specify their Macbook's model (in my case, a Macbook1,1 bought mid-2006; I don't know if there is a more precise way of describing it) in addition to the model of the drive (in my case, one of the Seagate FW 7.01 ones which has failed a little after a year of using it). Conversely, it would be interesting to know the experience of those using one of those drives in other computer models or newer revisions, specially if they have had drive problems or if not, how long has the drive been used. (Other data such as the drive model of early Macbook users who haven't had a problem would probably also be interesting to know.)

For those who have the combination that seems to be at fault, do as everybody should and backup your data regularly. If the possibility of data loss is the type of excuse you need to upgrade, then jump to Leopard and make good use of Time Machine.

Cheers!

balwx
Nov 14, 2007, 06:00 PM
Does anyone know if these drives are being shipping on the new SR macbooks? I'm going to order from amazon (with the rebate), any thoughts?

thanks

dreamsINdigital
Nov 16, 2007, 09:31 PM
Well the hard drive in my MacBook failed last night, and sure enough it was a Seagate with firmware 7.01. I took it to the Apple store, and they said it would cost $300 for them to replace it with the same 60 GB drive since I'm out of warranty and don't have AppleCare. The Mac Genius said there hasn't been any word of a recall or warranty extension.

DMann
Nov 16, 2007, 09:58 PM
Well the hard drive in my MacBook failed last night, and sure enough it was a Seagate with firmware 7.01. I took it to the Apple store, and they said it would cost $300 for them to replace it with the same 60 GB drive since I'm out of warranty and don't have AppleCare. The Mac Genius said there hasn't been any word of a recall or warranty extension.

In this circumstance, it would be worth trying to purchase AppleCare for your MacBook over the phone, provided the serial number wasn't documented at the store you took it to. In this day and age, purchasing an extended warranty is becoming more and more advisable, with the quality of components waning the way it has been recently.

HowEver
Nov 16, 2007, 10:58 PM
It's almost enough to make one wish for a flash memory drive...

As above, AppleCare on Apple laptops is crucial; it pays for itself with the first fix.

Marx55
Nov 17, 2007, 11:50 AM
Expect 1TB thumb drives by end 2008.

http://www.wired.com/gadgets/miscellaneous/news/2007/10/ion_memory

Not only that. The technology ("programmable metallization cell" or PMC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programmable_metallization_cell) can be used to build true artificial intelligence (artificial brain):

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?tp=&arnumber=703888&isnumber=15080

Terminator is about to be born!

goodcow
Nov 18, 2007, 05:20 PM
My drive just died tonight.

This makes my repair list:
Hard Drive, 80GB, 5400, SATA
Left I/O Board
Right CPU Fan

Plus I was on my third MagSafe and battery.

Apple, your quality control is ABSOLUTE GARBAGE.

techmonkey
Nov 18, 2007, 06:17 PM
My drive just died tonight.

This makes my repair list:
Hard Drive, 80GB, 5400, SATA
Left I/O Board
Right CPU Fan

Plus I was on my third MagSafe and battery.

Apple, your quality control is ABSOLUTE GARBAGE.

Wow. Do you transport your notebook, or is it mainly used at home? I guess sometimes lemons slip through.

goodcow
Nov 18, 2007, 07:13 PM
Wow. Do you transport your notebook, or is it mainly used at home? I guess sometimes lemons slip through.

It's a first gen 1.83 Core1Duo MacBook Pro, and yes, it gets transported every day, but still, that repair list is ridiculous.

On the plus side, I was told if I have to get another repair, they're just going to give me a new laptop.

techmonkey
Nov 18, 2007, 07:45 PM
Im not sure if anyone posted this yet, but the latest update addresses this issue.

sparky672
Nov 29, 2007, 10:53 AM
Im not sure if anyone posted this yet, but the latest update addresses this issue.

What update? This thread is about the read/write heads flying off internal Seagate internal hard drives and gouging into the data platters.

cpudan
Dec 4, 2007, 09:27 PM
I have lost 1000's of dollars in software.

I have three words for you...

CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT

I will be in the front row. How could they have not seen this coming with all the se instances of it happening.

It only happens with SEAGATE Hard Drives made in China - and mostly on MACBOOKPRO

SHENNANIGANS!!!

DMann
Dec 4, 2007, 09:29 PM
I have lost 1000's of dollars in software.

I have three words for you...

CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT

I will be in the front row. How could they have not seen this coming with all the se instances of it happening.

It only happens with SEAGATE Hard Drives made in China - and mostly on MACBOOKPRO

SHENNANIGANS!!!

And one wonders why anyone would be driven to downloading torrent files of lost and needed applications........

techmonkey
Dec 4, 2007, 09:32 PM
I have lost 1000's of dollars in software.



No backup? No original disk?

I have 3 words, Backup, Backup, Backup.

Sorry to be harsh, but Im playing devils advocate.

sparky672
Dec 4, 2007, 09:37 PM
I have lost 1000's of dollars in software.

I have three words for you...

CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT

I will be in the front row. How could they have not seen this coming with all the se instances of it happening.

It only happens with SEAGATE Hard Drives made in China - and mostly on MACBOOKPRO

SHENNANIGANS!!!

First off, no manufacturer of data storage devices or computers guarantees your data integrity. It's always your responsibility to do routine back-ups. You'll have to find another basis for a lawsuit.

Second, it's not "mostly" MacBook Pro. It's mostly two models of 80 GB Seagate drives with firmware revision 7.01 which can be in MacBooks, MacBook Pros, and Mac Minis.

And finally, I have three affected computers with these crap drives. Apple does need to promptly address this issue.

cpudan
Dec 4, 2007, 11:53 PM
First off, no manufacturer of data storage devices or computers guarantees your data integrity. It's always your responsibility to do routine back-ups. You'll have to find another basis for a lawsuit.

Second, it's not "mostly" MacBook Pro. It's mostly two models of 80 GB Seagate drives with firmware revision 7.01 which can be in MacBooks, MacBook Pros, and Mac Minis.

And finally, I have three affected computers with these crap drives. Apple does need to promptly address this issue.

My drive was a 120.

and I completely agree with the above poster on his 3 words... I had my photos, documents and MOST of my 30,000 song collection backed up. Only lost 2200 songs. What is interesting is that ITUNES people allowed me to redownload all of the lost music - without question. I did think that was the right thing to do... and they did.

What I lost was SOFTWARE. That is the hardest kick in the pants...

sparky672
Dec 5, 2007, 12:05 AM
My drive was a 120.

Yes, any drive can fail at any time. That's why manufacturers suggest you do regular back-ups and don't warranty lost data.


What is interesting is that ITUNES people allowed me to redownload all of the lost music - without question.

That's not a surprise since you already bought it once.


What I lost was SOFTWARE.

How so? Where are your original installation disks?

Goldenbear
Dec 5, 2007, 12:26 AM
I have lost 1000's of dollars in software.

I have three words for you...

CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT

I will be in the front row. How could they have not seen this coming with all the se instances of it happening.

It only happens with SEAGATE Hard Drives made in China - and mostly on MACBOOKPRO

SHENNANIGANS!!!

I will admit that I'm pretty exhausted right now, so maybe I'm just not seeing something that's obvious to everyone else, but...

1) How is it that you have "1000's of dollars in software" but no installation disks? And what about backups?

2) Explain to me how Apple could have foreseen the Seagate drive failures? Are you saying someone at Apple somehow could see the future, knew there would be a high failure rate, but used the drives anyway?

sparky672
Dec 5, 2007, 12:36 AM
2) Explain to me how Apple could have foreseen the Seagate drive failures? Are you saying someone at Apple somehow could see the future, knew there would be a high failure rate, but used the drives anyway?

I think, although poorly worded, he meant that Apple [should have seen] a class action lawsuit coming with the high Seagate failure rate and all.

I personally don't think you can file a class action suit for damages that are clearly excluded from all drive warranties.

mr-morbid
Dec 5, 2007, 04:36 PM
I saw the article of faulty Seagte drives on Engadget on November 27th. Three hours later my macbook froze. When I rebooted I heard 4 clicks from the HDD and the system was missing. I cracked it open and lo and behold: Seagate 80Gb ST98823AS - Frimware 7.01

I had my work files backed up, but I lost six months of email and about 30Gb of music not stored on my iPod.

I'm angry. (rant alert) Not because I lost some data (thats my own dumb fault) but because of the Macbooks sub-standard component quality, Apples crappy support and short warranty.

There are a lot of things I still love about Apple. OS X is a joy to use. Apple applications feel incredibly intuituive and the industrial design of its products is lightyears ahead of anyone else. But this macbook has really eroded my faith in Apple hardware.

In the 15 months since I bought my Macbook it has suffered palmrest discoloration, intermittent shutdowns, occasional PRAM problems (bleeding rainbow), 1 dead battery, the iSight and ethernet port have died. Now the hard drive has crashed.:mad:

If Apple is going to charge a premium price for their hardware (and they do) they need to do one of two things: Either buy high quality components and test them to make sure they very rarely fail. Or offer proper support and decent warranty when they do.

The one year warranty on an Apple products is unacceptable.. On my desktop PC my Monitor, hard drives and Mainboard have 5 year warranties, and my RAM, chasis keyboard and power supply have LIFETIME warranties. This is on a system that I built for 2/3rds the price of a similarily speced iMac.

OK, I'll admit, my desktop PC isn't as sexy as an iMac. But my PC is cheaper, has faster tech support and a much longer warranty on parts. Considering that with minimal fuss I can get OS X running on my desktop PC*, Why should I continue to pay more for Apple hardware? :confused:

I know this is primarily Segates problem.. but with the number of Seagate drives being replaced in Apple centres, Apple must have known there has been something wrong for a while, and should have issued a warning, if not a recall.

*Violation of the Apple EULA - I know.

cpudan
Dec 5, 2007, 11:08 PM
[QUOTE=Goldenbear;4579755]I will admit that I'm pretty exhausted right now, so maybe I'm just not seeing something that's obvious to everyone else, but...

1) How is it that you have "1000's of dollars in software" but no installation disks? And what about backups?

2) Explain to me how Apple could have foreseen the Seagate drive failures? Are you saying someone at Apple somehow could see the future, knew there would be a high failure rate, but used the drives anyway?[/QUOTE


The real question to me is: Doesn't Apple actually install the software & test it on their products to see what happens before they release it to the public? The answer MUST be "Yes"... right?

You would think they do AT LEAST that to see if there are any potential challenges... (like Seagate Hard Drives crashing all over the place - for instance). A little DUE DILIGENCE would seem to have been in order. THAT's where I see the legal issues coming from.

HOW could they NOT know??? It's happening to a LARGE NUMBER of customers.

It MUST have happened in the testing phase & somebody covered it up... OR there was flawed or limited testing - either way, IMO APPLE is NEGLIGENT.

Somebody rolled the dice here...

sparky672
Dec 6, 2007, 12:40 AM
I will admit that I'm pretty exhausted right now, so maybe I'm just not seeing something that's obvious to everyone else, but...

1) How is it that you have "1000's of dollars in software" but no installation disks? And what about backups?

2) Explain to me how Apple could have foreseen the Seagate drive failures? Are you saying someone at Apple somehow could see the future, knew there would be a high failure rate, but used the drives anyway?


The real question to me is: Doesn't Apple actually install the software & test it on their products to see what happens before they release it to the public? The answer MUST be "Yes"... right?

You would think they do AT LEAST that to see if there are any potential challenges... (like Seagate Hard Drives crashing all over the place - for instance). A little DUE DILIGENCE would seem to have been in order. THAT's where I see the legal issues coming from.

HOW could they NOT know??? It's happening to a LARGE NUMBER of customers.

It MUST have happened in the testing phase & somebody covered it up... OR there was flawed or limited testing - either way, IMO APPLE is NEGLIGENT.

Somebody rolled the dice here...

Geesh! They realize now that it's happening to large number of customers and they're looking into it. Get this whole "legal issue", "class action" idea off the table... hardware manufacturers never claim your data is 100% secure and are not liable for your loss.

Again, how did you lose so much software? Where are your original installation disks? Your backup installation disks?

TedByrne
Apr 22, 2008, 07:40 PM
In early October while in Florence, Italy for business, the silver screen of death abruptly appeared on my 17" MacBook Pro 2.16 G/120 Seagate Drive supported laptop. I know what it's called because the Italian tech looked at it, smiled and said, "Ah, the silver screen of death. Bad Seagate Drive, eh?"

My AppleCare was useless there, so I lugged it around Europe, returned to the U.S. and spent a couple of weeks with various Apple telephone people until someone finally agreed to have me mail it in. It came back with a new Seagate Drive and none of my data (I have a portable external drive and I only lost one day of material, but it was very important, plus I was without a laptop for the rest of my business trip).

That drive lasted until January, when it too created, "The Silver Screen Of Death". Again I spent some time with Apple, this time insisting that they replace the entire machine. I offered to pay the difference between the salvage value of my old machine should it be in mint condition and the cost of the new machine.

Finally in February they agreed to send me a new machine as a replacement. the new machine was the 2.4GHz with a 160GB drive @ 5400 (and wouldn't you know it... a Seagate) without additional charge.

I have treated this new machine with super care. I shut it down to move it from my desk to the conference room. I have a super padded brief case. It NEVER travels in the sleep mode.

This afternoon (April 22, 2008) I worked on a Microsoft Word project at home in my living room. Someone came to the door. I returned to the machine to see the beach ball rotating. "Huh?" I wondered. It would not stop. I heard a slight tinkling sound. The keyboard and mouse were unresponsive. Finally I held down the power key. Left it off for thirty seconds and rebooted to........

THE SILVER SCREEN OF DEATH.

It will not boot on another disc. It will not boot in target mode. The tinkling sound is still present. It will only turn off with the power button.

I have probably lost an entire day of work. Fortunately with this machine I back up at the end of every day. I have a call into Apple.

This is the latest MacBook Pro sent direct from China. Is it time to go to Dell? My wife was about to by a MacBook. I was about to buy new Mac Work station for my business. Next month I was going to replace my MacPro here in my office.

Incidentally, I edit and write for Pennsylvania's largest circulation business magazines, distributed exclusively to senior managers in the for profit and government communities. I'm anxious to see how Apple handles this.

Do you know just how much work restoring a machine to your comfortable working condition takes. It was the best part of a week first with the replaced drive, then with the replaced machine. The lost data and work is much more than an irritant. I am leery of trusting another apple laptop. Suggestions anyone?

techmonkey
Apr 22, 2008, 07:50 PM
Wow, either you have very bad luck or somebody doesnt like you at Apple :)

Its odd that Seagate drives have this problem. I buy Seagate exclusively for my external and PC drives.

Good luck on your Apple call.

simmo8403
Jun 6, 2008, 02:25 AM
I have suffered from data loss due to a clicking hard disk drive from the first generation CoreDuo MacBook Pros.

I'm wondering, hoping, that there is now some kind of fix, as I am completely lost. I keep regular backups using Time Capsule and Time Machine. However the other weekend I went away for a few days for work. I spent around 18 hours in total creating a website and then the computer froze.

I started it up and got a click, click, click, seems like the hard drive failure that is being described :mad:

I'm in the UK and have sent the drive to these guys: http://www.abcdatarecovery.co.uk , great I thought data will be recovered in no time - wrong!

Now I am told that the platters in the drive are damaged in some way. Does anyone know how to fix this? Is there something that I can do by opening the drive?

HELP!

sparky672
Jun 6, 2008, 08:57 AM
I'm in the UK and have sent the drive to these guys: http://www.abcdatarecovery.co.uk , great I thought data will be recovered in no time - wrong!

Now I am told that the platters in the drive are damaged in some way. Does anyone know how to fix this? Is there something that I can do by opening the drive?

Recovering data from media with physical surface damage would be like trying to recover the Mona Lisa after you've set it on fire. :eek:

If the surface is damaged and a professional data recovery firm has already given you the bad news, then there's nothing more to be done.

Mackilroy
Jun 6, 2008, 10:16 AM
I find this odd... I've never lost any data, and I used the default drive up until about two months ago (after most of two years of use) because I wanted more space. Hm.

ayeying
Jun 6, 2008, 10:21 AM
You know.. half the time, its the users themselves at fault for NOT BACKING UP YOUR FILES. We have programs that do that, Carbon Copy Cloner, Time Machine, USE IT PEOPLE. its not expensive to buy a external hard drive, $100 at best for a 500GB or $160-$200 for a 1TB. Buy one, back up, that way, if your drive does crash, it won't be that big of a deal because everything would be saved.

Or if you don't like the drives apple's replacing it for you, go out and buy one and install it yourself.

sparky672
Jun 6, 2008, 10:22 AM
I find this odd... I've never lost any data, and I used the default drive up until about two months ago (after most of two years of use) because I wanted more space. Hm.

What's so odd about that?

Even if this particular model drive had a huge 50% failure rate, 50% of the drives would never fail.

The actual failure rate hasn't been reported but I'm certain it's not 100%.

simmo8403
Jun 7, 2008, 05:29 AM
Recovering data from media with physical surface damage would be like trying to recover the Mona Lisa after you've set it on fire. :eek:

If the surface is damaged and a professional data recovery firm has already given you the bad news, then there's nothing more to be done.

Oh well, strong case for backing up, even when you only go away for a few days!

Thanks all!

Kleivonen
Jun 7, 2008, 10:09 AM
What's so odd about that?

Even if this particular model drive had a huge 50% failure rate, 50% of the drives would never fail.

The actual failure rate hasn't been reported but I'm certain it's not 100%.

Mine is one of the potentially faulty drives, and I've had mine for ~2 years, and its still fine. I'm about to update to a larger drive though.

dadsgravy
Jul 24, 2008, 03:10 AM
My ST96812AS HD just crashed today. I was ready for it though, having known for 6 months that it could go at any second. Neither Apple or Seagate has done anything about it yet.

Great Job!:p

ReMac
Aug 9, 2008, 08:56 PM
If a reputable data recovery company like abc Data Recovery Ltd (http://www.abcdatarecovery.co.uk) cannot recover your data because there is too much damage to the platter surface then why blame them for your not backing up ?

At least they do not charge for the assessment like Ontrack (http://www.ontrack.com) or actionfront (http://www.seagate.com) who will want many $ just to tell you it cannot be recovered.

As you are in the UK you will be aware very few data recovery companies actually have their own clean room , many claim a dust free or class 100 (http://www.easyrecovery.co.uk)environment, but the fed std 209e for clean room classification was replaced by the ISO standard in 2001 and completely dropped in 2004 so only those with a certified ISO standard should be trusted with your hard drive, software is particularily dangerous if a drive is failing and the data is important .

Any data recovery company claiming class 100 should be able to prove that they are certificated to ISO 5 as a minimum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleanroom).

One of the very best data recovery companies to show their commitment to high standards and therfor the best possible chance of data recovery when rebuilding hard drives is abc Data Recovery Ltd with a rating of ISO 3 (Class 1 US) (http://www.abcdatarecovery.co.uk/Lab-Facility/) and just shows why they have grown to be a world class operation during 2008.

Many data recovery companies survive feeding off high prices and creative websites then changing their name has any one noticed datarecoverylondon.co.uk (http://www.geeksnerds.co.uk)seems strange they never existed in the ranks and suddenly have been absorbed by geeksnerds who do not even have a certified hard drive clean room.

There are many that claim to have been in data recovery for years and be leaders producing equipment for data recovery, but has anyone asked where EMAK / Diskmaster has gone which Data Clinic (http://www.dataclinic.co.uk/data-recovery-hardware-tool.htm) said would be released Qtr4 2007 with the aid of substantial government grants for 3 years but where is EMAK and where has all this money gone ?

abc Data Recovery Ltd have also produced the High capacity Seagate platter removal tool that until this year only Retrodata claimed to have solved (http://www.abcdatarecovery.co.uk/News/2008/4/ABC-Launch-New-Service/) .

abc Data Recovery Ltd invested heavily in 2008 and is growing on the back of its high success rates which rival the best in the world at a fraction of the cost so deserve a thumbs up for their commitment to home users as well as big business..

So don't shoot the messenger of bad news you never know you might need them in the future and they can save you a fortune.:apple:

Metuas
Aug 10, 2008, 01:48 AM
"MacBooks face lost data risk"

And, in other news, hard drives do fail.
They even fail on other computers.



Gasp.

(It's silly to blame Apple for this. This is Seagate's issue and if failures really are at unacceptable rates, they should be the ones offering replacements.)

Insulin Junkie
Aug 10, 2008, 06:05 AM
Faulty or not, anyone who doesn't backup their stuff is asking for it, in a certain sense.