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MacRumors
Nov 7, 2007, 02:11 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

As expected (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/11/05/apple-preparing-for-mac-os-x-10-5-1/), Apple has started seeding Mac OS 10.5.1 to developers for testing. The latest seed carries a build number of 9B13 and offers a number of fixes.

Apple details a number of issues addressed in the seed. Specifically, there have been fixes to Mail Sync, Spotlight Index, Disk Management, Text Drawing, iCal and CalDAV syncing, Keychain login, Read-Only Issue with SMB, AirPort 802.1X, Application Firewall, To-Do Notes, and Smart Mailboxes.

Apple released Mac OS X Leopard on October 26th (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/26/mac-os-x-leopard-launch-events/) and sold (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/30/apple-sells-two-million-copies-of-leopard-in-first-weekend/) over 2 million copies in the first weekend. There have been some vocal complaints about bugs in the first version of Mac OS X 10.5.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/11/07/apple-seeds-mac-os-x-10-5-1-9b13/)



FJ218700
Nov 7, 2007, 02:13 PM
nothing about disk utility?

Grimace
Nov 7, 2007, 02:13 PM
umm....and Aperture and screen display problems...

ViveLeLivre
Nov 7, 2007, 02:13 PM
Notably absent from that list: Time Machine via Air Disk.

...and the workarounds are NOT an acceptable alternative.

vvebsta
Nov 7, 2007, 02:15 PM
Where can we get this seed if we are not developers?

Rocketman
Nov 7, 2007, 02:15 PM
Apple has started seeding Mac OS 10.5.1 to developers for testing.

Looking forward to using the new MacBook for the first time with this update installed.

Rocketman

arn
Nov 7, 2007, 02:16 PM
Where can we get this seed if we are not developers?

it's not available to non-developers yet.

arn

dukebound85
Nov 7, 2007, 02:16 PM
Where can we get this seed if we are not developers?

we just wait till its released

azdude
Nov 7, 2007, 02:16 PM
Will it fix the "Dashboard dead for all users" problem caused by enabling parental controls?

I can't fix mine, no matter what I try reversing. Ugh! I never realized how much I used Dashboard until it became completely dead.

JoshFink
Nov 7, 2007, 02:16 PM
Where can we get this seed if we are not developers?

lol.. You can't.

vvebsta
Nov 7, 2007, 02:17 PM
Where is the TIME MACHINE AIR DISK SUPPORT?????? :mad:

lofight
Nov 7, 2007, 02:19 PM
Interesting, about when will it be out, do you think?

JC4
Nov 7, 2007, 02:19 PM
Where is the TIME MACHINE AIR DISK SUPPORT?????? :mad:

I just want Timemachine to stop locking up my iMac, EVERYTIME I run it.

JohnC

a1dipship
Nov 7, 2007, 02:20 PM
hope they fix the finder glitches

1, the secure delete that hangs

2, the finder window disappearing when you unmount and drive or image

:confused:

psychofreak
Nov 7, 2007, 02:20 PM
nothing about disk utility?


Apple details a number of issues addressed in the seed. Specifically, there have been fixes to Mail Sync, Spotlight Index, Disk Management, Text Drawing, iCal and CalDAV syncing, Keychain login, Read-Only Issue with SMB, AirPort 802.1X, Application Firewall, To-Do Notes, and Smart Mailboxes.


Hopefully this will fix the errors properly :)

Hard-Hat-Mac
Nov 7, 2007, 02:23 PM
I really hope this fixes the SUID error in DU everyone's been getting including me!

adamfilip
Nov 7, 2007, 02:26 PM
I hope it fixes Windows networking

right now my windows machine cant access my shares (other then public)

dal20402
Nov 7, 2007, 02:26 PM
Sigh... neither of my big Leopard issues are on the list:

1. iDisk syncing that fails when files are added to or removed from packages (such as OmniOutliner autosaves), and
2. Spaces weirdness where, after I'm logged in for awhile, windows start to disappear, and Spaces stops automatically taking me to the right space when I switch to an application.

I guess I'll keep waiting for 10.5.2.

vvebsta
Nov 7, 2007, 02:29 PM
I feel your pain about the iDisk sync. Apple need to be reading up on all these customer problems. Do they read these boards?

Sigh... neither of my big Leopard issues are on the list:

1. iDisk syncing that fails when files are added to or removed from packages (such as OmniOutliner autosaves), and
2. Spaces weirdness where, after I'm logged in for awhile, windows start to disappear, and Spaces stops automatically taking me to the right space when I switch to an application.

I guess I'll keep waiting for 10.5.2.

slffl
Nov 7, 2007, 02:29 PM
Dang, no Time Machine fix.

madmax_2069
Nov 7, 2007, 02:30 PM
I really hope this fixes the SUID error in DU everyone's been getting including me!

at least you get something in disk utility when you try to repair permissions, i get nothing, it wont even start, it just sits there ( i have let it run for 30 - 45 minutes and still didn't begin to repair anything)

i do hope the fix the bug in DVD player

miketcool
Nov 7, 2007, 02:31 PM
Sigh... neither of my big Leopard issues are on the list:

1. iDisk syncing that fails when files are added to or removed from packages (such as OmniOutliner autosaves), and
2. Spaces weirdness where, after I'm logged in for awhile, windows start to disappear, and Spaces stops automatically taking me to the right space when I switch to an application.

I guess I'll keep waiting for 10.5.2.

I have noticed "magic swtiching" as well. It usually happens when a menu bar remains in space 1 and I have tried moving the app to space 2. Try using the preferences to choose which space the entire program opens up into. Just a temp fix though, the spaces experience should be as easy as dragging any window.

arn
Nov 7, 2007, 02:32 PM
just note, these list of fixes are rarely exhaustive. just because you don't see something in it doesn't really mean anything.

arn

Mac OS X Ocelot
Nov 7, 2007, 02:32 PM
Sigh... neither of my big Leopard issues are on the list:

1. iDisk syncing that fails when files are added to or removed from packages (such as OmniOutliner autosaves), and
2. Spaces weirdness where, after I'm logged in for awhile, windows start to disappear, and Spaces stops automatically taking me to the right space when I switch to an application.

I guess I'll keep waiting for 10.5.2.

2) happens to me too.

megatronbomb
Nov 7, 2007, 02:35 PM
Notably absent from that list: Time Machine via Air Disk.

...and the workarounds are NOT an acceptable alternative.

Let's let them fix real problems before adding additional functionality! :)

wrldwzrd89
Nov 7, 2007, 02:36 PM
I'm looking forward to 802.1X bug fixes, as they seem to be affecting my ability to log into my campus's wireless network. Sometimes it works, other times it doesn't. How annoying.:(

macFanDave
Nov 7, 2007, 02:39 PM
Where can we get this seed if we are not developers?

You can always join ADC (Apple Developer Connection) if this is so important to you. The cheapest option that MAY get you the seed is $500/year. (One reason I didn't continue as a Select (the $500 level) member is that even at that level, some things were only available to the uber-members (aka Premier, $3500 I think))

They don't test you to see if you are truly a developer, you could be just an enthusiastic hobbyist. The application is as easy as buying a book on Amazon.

(WARNING: Double negative ahead.) So, there is not NO legal way to get the developer seed of 10.5.1, but it is probably more expensive than most of us are willing to pay to get a few weeks' head start on their fellow Mac users. Also, seeds may not be perfect and developers are equipped to find, isolate, and handle bugs. An ordinary user may not be able to handle the rough draft that a seed may represent.

Porkka666
Nov 7, 2007, 02:39 PM
WOW, Already!? I'm a new Mac User, and LOVING it! Hopefully getting this update!

I love the new version number, it's so much better than the old 10.5.0 ! :D:D

Mustafa
Nov 7, 2007, 02:40 PM
I want SMS messaging out of Address Book back. I'm not impressed by features being deleted after I've paid 100+ for an upgrade.

Stella
Nov 7, 2007, 02:41 PM
Wow in under 2 weeks

No, they've been working on this for longer than two weeks. At least since the code freeze for the GM release.

mediumofmeaning
Nov 7, 2007, 02:41 PM
does anyone know if such an upgrade could potentially have updated bootcamp related drivers or improvements (to fix various windows hardware problems), or would that have to come as a separate fix?

czeluff
Nov 7, 2007, 02:43 PM
There have been some vocal complaints about bugs in the first version of Mac OS X 10.5.

Oh heaven forbid some bugs in the initial release of the company's biggest OS. The point is that the issues get resolved rather quickly, unlike some other companies...

It is estimated that for every 1000 lines of code, there is 1 bug in someone's code. The fact that operatig systems run as well as they do is a tribute to the developers and debuggers.

Quit whining.

50548
Nov 7, 2007, 02:46 PM
I am having random problems with "data underrun" in my startup disk after updating QT and iTunes with Leopard...the same problems that have cause Finder freezes in 10.4.10 for some people...are any of you having a similar issue?

Ad Pro
Nov 7, 2007, 02:47 PM
so leopard 10.5.1 will eventually be availiable / the bug fixes will eventually be availiable through a free software update. Is this right? Or does it mean you would have to buy a newer version of leopard to get the bug fixes?

Chris Grande
Nov 7, 2007, 02:47 PM
Hopefully they fixed the rather broken Active Directory plug-in.

arn
Nov 7, 2007, 02:48 PM
so leopard 10.5.1 will eventually be availiable / the bug fixes will eventually be availiable through a free software update. Is this right? Or does it mean you would have to buy a newer version of leopard to get the bug fixes?

All 10.5.x updates will be free. The next pay update will be 10.6.

arn

Eidorian
Nov 7, 2007, 02:50 PM
New GMA X3100 drivers would be nice. :D

jonny
Nov 7, 2007, 02:51 PM
Notably absent from that list: Time Machine via Air Disk.

...and the workarounds are NOT an acceptable alternative.

Something tells me that Time Machine will not work via Airdisk until buggy firmware for aeBS (yes emphasis on BS) is fixed. The airdisk has never worked perfectly for me, on any of the firmware revisions.

Farani
Nov 7, 2007, 02:57 PM
a BIG problem they need to fix is when saving or transferring files to a network drive, if the transfer gets interrupted the file gets deleted! I read about this 2 nights ago and had it happen this morning on a paper I was working on. Luckily I'm extremely anal and save my files in literally 4 places (idisk, usb airdisk, hard drive, and flash drive).

nickdaze
Nov 7, 2007, 02:59 PM
What about the fact that I'm getting Japanese links in iTunes in Front Row, and DVD menus are always scrambled for me. Not so in Tiger.

doutee
Nov 7, 2007, 03:02 PM
I don't see anything about a fix for back to my mac issues. They posted something on apple.com about fixing it soon. I can only get it to work maybe 20 percent of the time.

YoYoMa
Nov 7, 2007, 03:04 PM
I wouldn't mind being able to use motion templates in Final Cut again.

niclet
Nov 7, 2007, 03:04 PM
Nothing about Time Machine, Disk Utility, Airport, Air Disk, file moving, graphic rendering and opaque menubar bugs?

Pfff! And I was so impatient to update to 10.5.1 :/

claytonaugust
Nov 7, 2007, 03:06 PM
2) happens to me too.

Glad to see I'm not the only one with the weird spaces issue where application switching doesn't switch to the right spaces.

Maccus Aurelius
Nov 7, 2007, 03:06 PM
I noticed that Spotlight was indexing more often, but thus far have not really experienced anything drastic. As I use a FW drive for Time Machine, airdisk is not really on my list of priorities either. The file delete during an interrupted transfer is what bothers me the most, as a transfer could involve many gigs of data.

Overall, Leopard's operation for me has been nice and easy, and I love it. Good to see fixes coming so soon though.

bilbo--baggins
Nov 7, 2007, 03:07 PM
Let's let them fix real problems before adding additional functionality! :)

Time Machine not working with Air Disk is a real problem if you bought an Airport Extreme and an external hard drive specifically for Time Machine, ready for the Leopard launch...

Eraserhead
Nov 7, 2007, 03:07 PM
I want SMS messaging out of Address Book back. I'm not impressed by features being deleted after I've paid 100+ for an upgrade.

Receiving was buggy and you were limited to sending 160 characters, I'm not surprised they shelved it.

bucksatan731
Nov 7, 2007, 03:08 PM
Claim an 802.XX fix, but since installing Leopard, My hotline client speeds have gone from 1Mb - 1.5Mb , down to 80Kb - 200Kb , but when I reboot to my 10.4 partition, speeds are back up to normal, and thats just the tip of the network speed bugs

spbcat
Nov 7, 2007, 03:11 PM
Just updated to 10.5.1. Safari and iChat stopped working saying this (the same for iChat):
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/5276/picture1nt9.png
Lame :mad:
UPD: Preview, Adress Book, Automator, Dictionary, Font Book have the same issues. ******.

LondonMacs
Nov 7, 2007, 03:13 PM
Hope it comes out soon. Typically apple does this on almost every operating system after a few weeks:)

ViveLeLivre
Nov 7, 2007, 03:13 PM
Something tells me that Time Machine will not work via Airdisk until buggy firmware for aeBS (yes emphasis on BS) is fixed. The airdisk has never worked perfectly for me, on any of the firmware revisions.

You're probably right. That box has been more trouble than it's worth. I've had Linksys routers that were more stable and reliable. The Leopard firmware update was a nightmare.

Still, I need that Air Disk to work.

50548
Nov 7, 2007, 03:13 PM
Just updated to 10.5.1. Safari and iChat stopped working saying this (the same for iChat):
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/5276/picture1nt9.png
Lame :mad:

Are you a developer? I didn't understand...

anthonyb
Nov 7, 2007, 03:14 PM
heres hoping that this finally gets fixed (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=374336). 4 pages long here at macrumors..

MacNemesis
Nov 7, 2007, 03:14 PM
You can always join ADC (Apple Developer Connection) if this is so important to you. The cheapest option that MAY get you the seed is $500/year. (One reason I didn't continue as a Select (the $500 level) member is that even at that level, some things were only available to the uber-members (aka Premier, $3500 I think))

They don't test you to see if you are truly a developer, you could be just an enthusiastic hobbyist. The application is as easy as buying a book on Amazon.


Keep in mind that this is a SEED. This is almost certainly NOT going to be the same build that gets released to the public when 10.5.1 is released. So don't go looking for rouge downloads somewhere. If history continues, there may be several revisions over ADC before the "official" 10.5.1 build is available for the masses.

Markleshark
Nov 7, 2007, 03:15 PM
heres hoping that this finally gets fixed (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=374336). 4 pages long here at macrumors..

Yeah, heres to hoping.

spbcat
Nov 7, 2007, 03:15 PM
Are you a developer? I didn't understand...

Yes. Look at the update of my post - system is partially unusable now.

rushmere
Nov 7, 2007, 03:16 PM
I hope this fixes the squeaking noise I get whenever I recline in my chair.

Sheesh, how long do I have to wait? It's been like this for 3 years now. I'm going back to Windows if it isn't fixed within the next 45 minutes. :eek:

odinsride
Nov 7, 2007, 03:16 PM
I wish they would address the MBP screen cutting out issues and release an update for the nvidia cards in SR MBP's...guess I'll keep wishing and waiting...

jacg
Nov 7, 2007, 03:17 PM
Time Machine not working with Air Disk is a real problem if you bought an Airport Extreme and an external hard drive specifically for Time Machine, ready for the Leopard launch...

Both Leopard and a new AEBS were delivered on launch day. Fortunately I heard about the problems before opening the AEBS box. Despite my encouragement the lady on the phone couldn't tell me when TM over Airdisk would work so it was picked up today.

To be honest, TM works so painlessly. Plug in, do something else, eject, unplug is all it takes and FW800 is quick.

pheonixash
Nov 7, 2007, 03:17 PM
I want SMS messaging out of Address Book back. I'm not impressed by features being deleted after I've paid 100+ for an upgrade.

Why would you pay ₤100, when it only costs ₤85 retail?

KingofAwesome
Nov 7, 2007, 03:18 PM
I'd love to see them change the folder for stacks to the icon of the folder itself, or to give you the ability to choose between this and the current behavior. If my download stack and document stack are next to each other and the first item in each is a song (or something else without icons that preview the file), how can I tell which is which? And the Applications folder shouldn't look like the address book.

I'm hopeful, but Apple has bigger fish to fry right now.

TheSpaz
Nov 7, 2007, 03:22 PM
Notably absent from that list: Time Machine via Air Disk.

...and the workarounds are NOT an acceptable alternative.

Don't you think Backing up over a network is kinda shaky? Wouldn't you want your files more secure than going over air and hoping everything copied okay? Plus, it would be really really slow. I'm glad they didn't include Airdisk support for Time Machine.

EagerDragon
Nov 7, 2007, 03:23 PM
so leopard 10.5.1 will eventually be availiable / the bug fixes will eventually be availiable through a free software update. Is this right? Or does it mean you would have to buy a newer version of leopard to get the bug fixes?

Click on your apple logo at the top left and select update, if there is an update, it will come down. OS updates like bug fixes, security fixes and sometimes new functionality are free. Also fixes to applications you have installed (if they are from Apple), are also downloaded and are free.

Only major updates to the OS like going from 10.4 to 10.5 and for application like iLife 06 to iLife 08 have to be purchased.

Farani
Nov 7, 2007, 03:23 PM
I just have to say that 10.5.0 has been very prone to freezes and glitches for me. I don't mind it at all though. The computer boots so quickly it's not a big deal. Not to mention I expected this since it's 10.5.0. Here's to hoping stability improves with each new build :apple:.

EDIT: This has really only been on my 24" iMac. My Macbook has been perfecto with Leopard.

Alloye
Nov 7, 2007, 03:24 PM
Just updated to 10.5.1. Safari and iChat stopped working saying this (the same for iChat):
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/5276/picture1nt9.png
Lame :mad:
UPD: Preview, Adress Book, Automator, Dictionary, Font Book have the same issues. ******.

If you are an ADC member:

1. Did you read the standard disclaimer in the seed note regarding the use of pre-release software on production systems?

2. Are you aware that you're in violation of your NDA?

EagerDragon
Nov 7, 2007, 03:26 PM
Nothing about Time Machine, Disk Utility, Airport, Air Disk, file moving, graphic rendering and opaque menubar bugs?

Pfff! And I was so impatient to update to 10.5.1 :/

menu bar transparency is not a bug, is there by Apple choice.

spbcat
Nov 7, 2007, 03:27 PM
If you are an ADC member:

1. Did you read the standard disclaimer in the seed note regarding the use of pre-release software on production systems?

2. You are in violation of your NDA.

Well, in fact, there is nothing secret on my screen, you can get this if you try to use leopard's app on tiger etc.
And I just gave all you an impression of this update (while Release Notes saying about no issues). I thought it will be interesting for Macrumors forums members.

Sal Collaziano
Nov 7, 2007, 03:27 PM
With all these complaints, it almost sounds as if 10.5.0 shouldn't have been released yet...

psychofreak
Nov 7, 2007, 03:28 PM
Don't you think Backing up over a network is kinda shaky? Wouldn't you want your files more secure than going over air and hoping everything copied okay? Plus, it would be really really slow. I'm glad they didn't include Airdisk support for Time Machine.
802.11n is fast, and not really that shaky at all, people transfer files over WiFi all the time...

Wild-Bill
Nov 7, 2007, 03:28 PM
If you are an ADC member:

1. Did you read the standard disclaimer in the seed note regarding the use of pre-release software on production systems?

2. Are you aware that you're in violation of your NDA?

Busted.

Platonist
Nov 7, 2007, 03:31 PM
Yeah, heres to hoping.

Amen to this -- if this whole 'shared' issue gets fixed my Mac Pro will be good to go. I must admit that I am a bit nervous though, since the only problem I have had is not being to access other Macs on my network while running Leopard. Others have had many more issues, and with my luck the one issue I have will either get fixed while the update introduces new issues or the update won't help at all. Perhaps I am simply having a pessimistic sort of day...

ChrisA
Nov 7, 2007, 03:32 PM
Notably absent from that list: Time Machine via Air Disk.

This works already. Well at least the TM part does. I think Apple disabled the feature because Air Disk is so unreliable. No one wants to use an unreliable disk as a backup device.

To make Air Disk reliable will require a fix to the router's firmware. I'm guessing that it is not an easy fix or it would have been done

psychofreak
Nov 7, 2007, 03:32 PM
With all these complaints, it almost sounds as if 10.5.0 shouldn't have been released yet...

For me at least, the OS has been very stable, but I can see bugs that should have been fixed for the GM...

EagerDragon
Nov 7, 2007, 03:34 PM
Don't you think Backing up over a network is kinda shaky? Wouldn't you want your files more secure than going over air and hoping everything copied okay? Plus, it would be really really slow. I'm glad they didn't include Airdisk support for Time Machine.

I have to disagree. Some protocols to transfer files just drop them over the wall and hope they get there. This is a backup, as such IT IS expected to arrive at the other end intact or the system needs to re-transmit. I do not think Apple is that stupid.

mwp98223
Nov 7, 2007, 03:35 PM
I'd love to see them change the folder for stacks to the icon of the folder itself, or to give you the ability to choose between this and the current behavior. If my download stack and document stack are next to each other and the first item in each is a song (or something else without icons that preview the file), how can I tell which is which? And the Applications folder shouldn't look like the address book.

I'm hopeful, but Apple has bigger fish to fry right now.

I agree. This SEEMS like a minor issue, but really it is a problem. Its not bad enough that we need to "learn" stacks, but the darn icons keep changing or they aren't intuitive. This should be fixed.

EagerDragon
Nov 7, 2007, 03:39 PM
With all these complaints, it almost sounds as if 10.5.0 shouldn't have been released yet...

No, the problem is that some people here are just cronic complainers, some just want some features that were removed, other have done something weird to their systems and have blue screens and instability because of that.

I updated (yes updated) 2 laptops and 1 iMac with no issues and no hangs. All 3 run fine, only complain is using TM with a disk being shared is not working correctly, but there is an easy work around .... physically move the disk and plug it into the machine that needs to be backup until Apple fixes the issue.

No big deal, all .0 releases have bugs.

bignumbers
Nov 7, 2007, 03:39 PM
For me at least, the OS has been very stable, but I can see bugs that should have been fixed for the GM...

I'll second that. I installed the final 10.5 the day it was released on my main production machine, and it's been excellent. Some minor quirks, and some minor third-party app issues, but it's quite stable and usable. Definitely faster than 10.4 with many apps running thanks to improved VM.

Alloye
Nov 7, 2007, 03:40 PM
Well, in fact, there is nothing secret on my screen, you can get this if you try to use leopard's app on tiger etc.
And I just gave all you an impression of this update (while Release Notes saying about no issues). I thought it will be interesting for Macrumors forums members.

I'm not trying to be rude, but ADC provides these seeds so we can test them and report any issues we find back to Apple engineers, not so we can inform the public about issues that may or may not exist when the release is final.

andy721
Nov 7, 2007, 03:43 PM
I hope they fix the repair :opermission bug.

Braz0s
Nov 7, 2007, 03:50 PM
a BIG problem they need to fix is when saving or transferring files to a network drive, if the transfer gets interrupted the file gets deleted! I read about this 2 nights ago and had it happen this morning on a paper I was working on. Luckily I'm extremely anal and save my files in literally 4 places (idisk, usb airdisk, hard drive, and flash drive).

Where you moving files or copying files? From what I've read it only happens when you move files - which most folks don't do.

abrooks
Nov 7, 2007, 03:51 PM
Looks like AppleInsider (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/11/07/first_builds_of_mac_os_x_10_5_1_pack_over_two_dozen_fixes.html) is having a go at reporting this as well, some information about Time Machine fixes :D

ChrisA
Nov 7, 2007, 03:54 PM
Don't you think Backing up over a network is kinda shaky? Wouldn't you want your files more secure than going over air and hoping everything copied okay? Plus, it would be really really slow. I'm glad they didn't include Airdisk support for Time Machine.

No it is NOT "shaky" One does not have to just hope it all goes OK. TCP uses checksums on each packet sent with an acknowledgment back to the sender and a re-try on errors. TCP/IP over any media, wired or not is reliable. It's been this way for what, 30+ years now? Actually the wireless protocol adds another layer of data integrity checking on top of what is done on wired connections

Is it slow? That depends on what else is going on over the network. If nothing else is then "n" is fast enough that the network will not be the bottle neck.

Also, After the initial full backup is done which can take hours you really don't care how fast the hourly snapshots are. They happen in the background and go mostly un-noticed and if you could not hear or see the backup drive you might not even know the backup was happening. So speed is unimportant.

SeaFox
Nov 7, 2007, 03:54 PM
What about the data loss issues when transferring files over a network to a volume that disappears in the middle of the move?

That's even more embarrassing than Vista running out of memory when copying a large number of files since would have to be copying over 16,000 files to experience it.

Edit: AppleInsider's coverage mentions a bug that might possibly be the same one they say.

Transeau
Nov 7, 2007, 03:54 PM
If you are an ADC member:

1. Did you read the standard disclaimer in the seed note regarding the use of pre-release software on production systems?

2. Are you aware that you're in violation of your NDA?

I hate to be the one to point out the obvious....

You DO realize that the VERY FIRST post in this thread is a violation of the NDA to start with. Maybe you shouldn't be so ready to jump on a user if you aren't willing to jump all over the admins.

Phil A.
Nov 7, 2007, 03:55 PM
You can always join ADC (Apple Developer Connection) if this is so important to you. The cheapest option that MAY get you the seed is $500/year. (One reason I didn't continue as a Select (the $500 level) member is that even at that level, some things were only available to the uber-members (aka Premier, $3500 I think))

They don't test you to see if you are truly a developer, you could be just an enthusiastic hobbyist. The application is as easy as buying a book on Amazon.

(WARNING: Double negative ahead.) So, there is not NO legal way to get the developer seed of 10.5.1, but it is probably more expensive than most of us are willing to pay to get a few weeks' head start on their fellow Mac users. Also, seeds may not be perfect and developers are equipped to find, isolate, and handle bugs. An ordinary user may not be able to handle the rough draft that a seed may represent.

Just to make things absolutely clear for any non developers who may be thinking about doing this (can't think why they'd want to though!) - it is highly unlikely that this seed will become the actual update: The early seeds are effectively beta versions of the updates and are provided to developers to a) help them test their apps against updates and b) iron out any bugs in the updates. As such, update seeds should never be installed on production systems

Transeau
Nov 7, 2007, 03:56 PM
What about the data loss issues when transferring files over a network to a volume that disappears in the middle of the move?

That's even more embarrassing than Vista running out of memory when copying a large number of files since would have to be copying over 16,000 files to experience it.

Edit: AppleInsider's coverage mentions a bug that might possibly be the same one they say.

Not sure... but this may cover it...
"DesktopServices and moving files across partition"

Phil A.
Nov 7, 2007, 03:57 PM
I hope they fix the repair :opermission bug.

What exactly is this repair permissions bug? I've just tried a repair permissions and it worked fine (this is on a 4 disk striped array configured as my Leopard boot disk)

abrooks
Nov 7, 2007, 04:00 PM
What exactly is this repair permissions bug? I've just tried a repair permissions and it worked fine (this is on a 4 disk striped array configured as my Leopard boot disk)

On my MacBook Pro 160GB drive repairing permissions is a little funky.

At first I thought it was completely broken due to sitting there with a moving status bar for ages, but leave it for 40 minutes and it'll finish up just fine.

Vanilla
Nov 7, 2007, 04:06 PM
The two big issues for me personally is:
1. Sort out repairing disk permissions, please dear God
2. Get Back to My Mac to actually work. It's such a cool idea but outside my own personal network it doesn't work.
Vanilla

jonny
Nov 7, 2007, 04:08 PM
No it is NOT "shaky" One does not have to just hope it all goes OK. TCP uses checksums on each packet sent with an acknowledgment back to the sender and a re-try on errors. TCP/IP over any media, wired or not is reliable. It's been this way for what, 30+ years now? Actually the wireless protocol adds another layer of data integrity checking on top of what is done on wired connections

Is it slow? That depends on what else is going on over the network. If nothing else is then "n" is fast enough that the network will not be the bottle neck.

Also, After the initial full backup is done which can take hours you really don't care how fast the hourly snapshots are. They happen in the background and go mostly un-noticed and if you could not hear or see the backup drive you might not even know the backup was happening. So speed is unimportant.

Actually, I had it working over Airdisk. One airdisk disconnect (surprise surprise) during a small backup (around 2mb) and I had to reformat the Time Machine disk. So.... Yes. It is shaky.

Transeau
Nov 7, 2007, 04:09 PM
Well, in fact, there is nothing secret on my screen, you can get this if you try to use leopard's app on tiger etc.
And I just gave all you an impression of this update (while Release Notes saying about no issues). I thought it will be interesting for Macrumors forums members.

Just admitting that you have access to it, or that it even exists is a violation.

Aside from that, sounds like you got a hacked torrent. :) It's works fine.

HTrig
Nov 7, 2007, 04:11 PM
802.11n is fast, and not really that shaky at all, people transfer files over WiFi all the time...

I kinda disagree here. in theory you are correct but since installing leopard my network has been very shaky with intermittent pauses, sometimes for minutes at a time, and is much slower than it was before. plus with the previous bugs people stated about airport in tiger i would like to see proof that all of these issues are addressed before trusting my backup to wifi.

SeaFox
Nov 7, 2007, 04:11 PM
I hate to be the one to point out the obvious....

You DO realize that the VERY FIRST post in this thread is a violation of the NDA to start with. Maybe you shouldn't be so ready to jump on a user if you aren't willing to jump all over the admins.

Actually, no. Macrumors is publishing a story about a supposed seed of Mac OSX 10.5.1 being released today, and issues it might be addressing.

The contents of the update are information coming by way of an informant. The information they impart may or may not be true. At this point it is nothing more than a rumor. Arn is not an ADC member, he is not the one with access to the build. Macrumors, Arn, et al have not signed NDAs. They are doing nothing more than publishing what someone told them on a blog.

Hence, a RUMOR.

dal20402
Nov 7, 2007, 04:14 PM
What exactly is this repair permissions bug? I've just tried a repair permissions and it worked fine (this is on a 4 disk striped array configured as my Leopard boot disk)

Some process or other executes before the actual permissions repair, and takes an inordinately long time at 100% utilization of one core to do so. It takes about half an hour before the repair begins on my MBP. That's typical of what people have reported, but there have been a couple reports that the repair never started despite being left overnight.

Once the permissions repair actually starts, it goes pretty quickly.

Not a bug I care about much, as I don't repair permissions all that often and it eventually works.

jtalbert
Nov 7, 2007, 04:39 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/3A109a Safari/419.3)

disk utility issue I would think would fall under dusk management. Its a big enough issue I would think it would be addressed.

spbcat
Nov 7, 2007, 04:43 PM
Just admitting that you have access to it, or that it even exists is a violation.

Aside from that, sounds like you got a hacked torrent. :) It's works fine.

Take it easy :)
But it's annoying that I'm stuck with ugly browsers and IM clients... Will be more careful now and 'll wait for the first responses. I was taken in by that "No known issues" line *somewhere*.

heavyboots
Nov 7, 2007, 04:44 PM
menu bar transparency is not a bug, is there by Apple choice.

The fact they didn't give the user tools to turn it off in Appearance makes it a bug, IMHO. I have a totally black desktop under the menu bar. So now my menu bar is about 50% gray and far too low contrast for my taste. When the cool factor gets in the way of getting work done, it's not a feature.

Keep those duplicate "transparent menu bar" bug reports coming at bugreporter.apple.com, folks! :D

Transeau
Nov 7, 2007, 04:46 PM
Actually, no. Macrumors is publishing a story about a supposed seed of Mac OSX 10.5.1 being released today, and issues it might be addressing.

The contents of the update are information coming by way of an informant. The information they impart may or may not be true. At this point it is nothing more than a rumor. Arn is not an ADC member, he is not the one with access to the build. Macrumors, Arn, et al have not signed NDAs. They are doing nothing more than publishing what someone told them on a blog.

Hence, a RUMOR.

Well then, using your logic... sbpcat has done nothing wrong... Just reporting a rumor what someone who may update may have problems...

Transeau
Nov 7, 2007, 04:49 PM
The fact they didn't give the user tools to turn it off in Appearance makes it a bug, IMHO. I have a totally black desktop under the menu bar. So now my menu bar is about 50% gray and far too low contrast for my taste. When the cool factor gets in the way of getting work done, it's not a feature.

Keep those duplicate "transparent menu bar" bug reports coming at bugreporter.apple.com, folks! :D

My desktop is black, and I can see my menu just fine. If the coloring of the menu is that distracting to you that you can now work, maybe you need some Zoloft...

I mean, I could understand if you could not read the menus, but to say that the color is "in the way of getting work done" is pretty extreme.

swagi
Nov 7, 2007, 04:49 PM
I hate to be the one to point out the obvious....

You DO realize that the VERY FIRST post in this thread is a violation of the NDA to start with. Maybe you shouldn't be so ready to jump on a user if you aren't willing to jump all over the admins.

I dare to say that I'd never believe a build with that significant bugs would leave the house. I don't care, if the screenshot is valid. I just highly doubt, they would really send out a Developer Build with the aforementioned bug.

So thanx for my hefty laugh at pirates :D

So here is to hoping, that 10.5.3 will be a stable build to buy from DVD. At least I'm glad I waited...

...

Must defeat buying impulse!

SiliconAddict
Nov 7, 2007, 04:56 PM
Well I guess Apple is copying some of Vista's features. Namly its lack of spit and shine out of the box. This is a list I would expect from a release canidate not a shipping product.

milo
Nov 7, 2007, 04:58 PM
Time Machine not working with Air Disk is a real problem if you bought an Airport Extreme and an external hard drive specifically for Time Machine, ready for the Leopard launch...

So it's only a real problem if you made a purchase based on info that wasn't final and could change? That wasn't very smart, was it?

Yes. Look at the update of my post - system is partially unusable now.

So revert to your backup and report the issue to Apple. This is a beta release. If you're not willing to be a beta tester, don't be a beta tester.

Don't you think Backing up over a network is kinda shaky? Wouldn't you want your files more secure than going over air and hoping everything copied okay? Plus, it would be really really slow. I'm glad they didn't include Airdisk support for Time Machine.

It's called error correction, and it works, no "hoping" needed. I'm sure they'll add it sooner or later, they just need to make sure it's 100% reliable before they ship it.

ppnkg
Nov 7, 2007, 05:00 PM
If you are an ADC member:

1. Did you read the standard disclaimer in the seed note regarding the use of pre-release software on production systems?

2. Are you aware that you're in violation of your NDA?


Are you aware that without this sort of stuff macrumors would not even exist? Afaik, the admins have certain rules and they see they are not violated. So please take your law and morality campaign elsewhere.

Eraserhead
Nov 7, 2007, 05:01 PM
Well I guess Apple is copying some of Vista's features. Namly its lack of spit and shine out of the box. This is a list I would expect from a release canidate not a shipping product.

It was the same with Tiger ;).

vassillios
Nov 7, 2007, 05:11 PM
The fact they didn't give the user tools to turn it off in Appearance makes it a bug, IMHO. I have a totally black desktop under the menu bar. So now my menu bar is about 50% gray and far too low contrast for my taste. When the cool factor gets in the way of getting work done, it's not a feature.

Keep those duplicate "transparent menu bar" bug reports coming at bugreporter.apple.com, folks! :D


I agree it should be an option. Having said that, I would be greatly disappointed if it were not an option to make it transparent.

and 2d dock should also be an option....I would also be greatly disappointed if apple releases 10.5.1 and the 2d work around gets blocked.

milo
Nov 7, 2007, 05:18 PM
Actually, I had it working over Airdisk. One airdisk disconnect (surprise surprise) during a small backup (around 2mb) and I had to reformat the Time Machine disk. So.... Yes. It is shaky.

Please read the thread, this was a response to someone who said the whole notion of doing a backup over wifi was inherently shaky. The fact that you used a hack to try and make an unsupported feature work and it didn't doesn't support that claim.

There's a big difference between "wifi is shaky" and "my wifi is shaky".

It was the same with Tiger ;).

And probably every major OS release on every platform.

heavyboots
Nov 7, 2007, 05:31 PM
My desktop is black, and I can see my menu just fine. If the coloring of the menu is that distracting to you that you can now work, maybe you need some Zoloft...

I mean, I could understand if you could not read the menus, but to say that the color is "in the way of getting work done" is pretty extreme.

Well look at it this way. a custom desktop scaled to exactly the size of the monitor resolution with a 22px white box behind the menu bar makes the menu bar a lot easier to read for me.

Basically, translucency is kind of a cool feature when you have interesting content that extends up that far, but it really and truly bothers me when the background is straight black behind it (and yes, I hated OS 8 and OS 9 too and used Kaleidoscope through that entire era). I'm glad it doesn't bother you; that doesn't make it a medical condition for those it does bother however.

I'm perfectly happy with the option of a translucent menu, just not with being forced to use it as is the current case.

psychofreak
Nov 7, 2007, 05:33 PM
And probably every major OS release on every platform.

One more reason to keep the updates small and frequent, Ubuntu does it fantastically, but this is not feasible for a popular commercial OS...

EagerDragon
Nov 7, 2007, 05:35 PM
The fact they didn't give the user tools to turn it off in Appearance makes it a bug, IMHO. I have a totally black desktop under the menu bar. So now my menu bar is about 50% gray and far too low contrast for my taste. When the cool factor gets in the way of getting work done, it's not a feature.

Keep those duplicate "transparent menu bar" bug reports coming at bugreporter.apple.com, folks! :D

Well the fact that it does not serve my favorite beer is then also a bug, even when Apple never said it will serve beer of any kind. I guess I stand corrected.

If some people don't like Apple look and feel, it is a bug that must be corrected, regardless of Apple opinion and regardless of the opinion of other users, GOT IT!

Mac OS X Ocelot
Nov 7, 2007, 05:40 PM
Well the fact that it does not serve my favorite beer is then also a bug, even when Apple never said it will serve beer of any kind. I guess I stand corrected.

If some people don't like Apple look and feel, it is a bug that must be corrected, regardless of Apple opinion and regardless of the opinion of other users, GOT IT!

[robot voice] Heineken. Draught keg. Heineken. [/robot voice].

heavyboots
Nov 7, 2007, 05:42 PM
Got it. :)

illegallydead
Nov 7, 2007, 05:44 PM
hope they fix the finder glitches

1, the secure delete that hangs

2, the finder window disappearing when you unmount and drive or image

:confused:

(#2) That is what the finder is supposed to do. When you unmount/eject a volume, its finder window disapears.

Anyway, about the only thing that I really would like is the ability to customize more aspects of front row. As it is, there is NO customization. This probably won't be until .2+, but whatever. I have noticed no significant glitches with Leopard since I installed it the day it came out...

stcanard
Nov 7, 2007, 05:45 PM
Well I guess Apple is copying some of Vista's features. Namly its lack of spit and shine out of the box. This is a list I would expect from a release canidate not a shipping product.

I would bet you 99.9% of the users have had nothing but good impressions (and I'll bet even higher than that). So no there is not a lack of spit-and-shine, just some honest to goodness bugs that are often because of customizations and changes. The issues in Leopard have been no worse than your average point release upgrade.

Its so funny that people seem to have latched onto this file move bug as an "OMG, LEOPARD IS SO BUGGY AND AWFUL" thing when even the press release itself state that this has been confirmed as far back as Panther. What does it have to do with Leopard?

I have to admit I am more impressed as I use it -- this is my first full day working on a leopard system, and I am impressed by the speed and responsiveness relative to Tiger, and I may warm to Spaces yet -- its implementation is slick, and combined with the other OSX interface niceties (bouncing icons to tell you input is needed) it seems to really work well.

Sure there are bugs -- stacks, the embarrassing issue of Time Machine not working with Aperture, but as a point-oh release its pretty good.

netwalker
Nov 7, 2007, 05:46 PM
Yes. Look at the update of my post - system is partially unusable now.

Did you have a look at the release notes before installing?

They can't simulate everything in their test labs. That's why ADC members get early seeds (and to test their own software).

Mac OS X Ocelot
Nov 7, 2007, 05:49 PM
(#2) That is what the finder is supposed to do. When you unmount/eject a volume, its finder window disapears.

Anyway, about the only thing that I really would like is the ability to customize more aspects of front row. As it is, there is NO customization. This probably won't be until .2+, but whatever. I have noticed no significant glitches with Leopard since I installed it the day it came out...

In the both cats ejecting a volume both closed the window or didn't at different times. I don't know what determines if it'll close or not, but it did had both behaviors for some reason. When it doesn't close it goes to the top computer window (viewing drives and network).

I have a separate problem in Leopard that forces me to eject volumes on all logged in accounts (by switching users first) when I mounted them in just one.

FoxyKaye
Nov 7, 2007, 05:49 PM
Nobody believed me on these forums when I said I thought that 10.5.0 was going to be buggy as hell because of the finagling around its release schedule and diversion of Apple's resources.

I'm so glad I've held off on upgrading to Leopard. Maybe even until 10.5.2 or 10.5.3 from what others seem to be saying...

SeaFox
Nov 7, 2007, 05:52 PM
Well then, using your logic... sbpcat has done nothing wrong... Just reporting a rumor what someone who may update may have problems...
No, because sbpcat implied that he himself has updated the machine. He has also admitted that he is an ADC member. spbcat is under and NDA. That was the failure in your earlier statement. The first post of this thread is by Macrumors, who is a third party source of the information. spbcat addressing us makes him a first person source for information.

Admittedly, without seeing the original submission to this story, we don't know if the ADC member themselves emailed arn. It could be they were speaking through yet another proxy that was let in on the news over lunch or something. So even the tipster may not actually be under an NDA.

FoxyKaye
Nov 7, 2007, 05:53 PM
Its so funny that people seem to have latched onto this file move bug as an "OMG, LEOPARD IS SO BUGGY AND AWFUL" thing when even the press release itself state that this has been confirmed as far back as Panther.
This has happened to me once or twice, but I never chalked it up to a bug per se... It just seemed logical that unplugging a hard drive that's being written to by the OS in mid-write would result in an unstable drive (usually this happened when something accidentally flipped off the power strip).

twoodcc
Nov 7, 2007, 05:54 PM
i'm looking forward to this update! i wonder how long it usually takes from this stage?

netwalker
Nov 7, 2007, 05:55 PM
Nobody believed me on these forums when I said I thought that 10.5.0 was going to be buggy as hell because of the finagling around its release schedule and diversion of Apple's resources.

The only problem I have is, that some 3rd party vendors are not Leopard ready on time and you can't blame Apple for that. In general 10.5 runs fine.

cohibadad
Nov 7, 2007, 05:56 PM
Nobody believed me on these forums when I said I thought that 10.5.0 was going to be buggy as hell because of the finagling around its release schedule and diversion of Apple's resources.

I'm so glad I've held off on upgrading to Leopard. Maybe even until 10.5.2 or 10.5.3 from what others seem to be saying...

maybe wait until 10.5.9 just to be sure

FoxyKaye
Nov 7, 2007, 06:00 PM
maybe wait until 10.5.9 just to be sure
LOL - I just might. There's no amazingly compelling reason to update to Leopard right now, not when developers are still compiling for compatibility with 10.3.9 (though I would expect this to very soon shift to 10.4.11). Sure, there's a lot of under the hood changes with Leopard, but so there was with Tiger and that really didn't stabilize until at least 10.4.3, and others would argue for even a later build.

stcanard
Nov 7, 2007, 06:01 PM
This has happened to me once or twice, but I never chalked it up to a bug per se... It just seemed logical that unplugging a hard drive that's being written to by the OS in mid-write would result in an unstable drive (usually this happened when something accidentally flipped off the power strip).

Its something I've never done, except by accident for similar concerns. My biggest one being, even if it handles it perfectly, one move at a time, and gets interrupted I now have a tree that is split 1/2 on one drive and 1/2 on another -- how do I remerge them? Or maybe it copies the whole tree then deletes, but can I risk that was what really happened?

So I've always done a two-step copy and delete or if its larger most likely a 'tar cvf - * | (cd /Volumes/a; tar xf -)' if I really wanted to be careful.

That's probably why it has taken so long to notice this ... moving across partitions is just a bad idea in general...

EagerDragon
Nov 7, 2007, 06:01 PM
i'm looking forward to this update! i wonder how long it usually takes from this stage?

We will prob see it in 2 to 3 weeks.

milo
Nov 7, 2007, 06:06 PM
Its so funny that people seem to have latched onto this file move bug as an "OMG, LEOPARD IS SO BUGGY AND AWFUL" thing when even the press release itself state that this has been confirmed as far back as Panther. What does it have to do with Leopard?

While I agree that the alleged bugginess is probably overblown, the data loss bug supposedly has been fixed for a while and reappeared in Leopard.

Nobody believed me on these forums when I said I thought that 10.5.0 was going to be buggy as hell because of the finagling around its release schedule and diversion of Apple's resources.

And for the most part they were right.

This has happened to me once or twice, but I never chalked it up to a bug per se... It just seemed logical that unplugging a hard drive that's being written to by the OS in mid-write would result in an unstable drive (usually this happened when something accidentally flipped off the power strip).

That's not the problem - I'm sure we'd all expect a drive being written to may have problems with the file getting written being lost or corrupted in the case of an interruption. The problem is that the file is lost on the drive the file is coming FROM. There's no reason for this to happen, it's something apple needs to fix.

Based on what AI says in their article, this may be addressed in 10.5.1.

matznentosh
Nov 7, 2007, 06:09 PM
Nobody believed me on these forums when I said I thought that 10.5.0 was going to be buggy as hell because of the finagling around its release schedule and diversion of Apple's resources.

I'm so glad I've held off on upgrading to Leopard. Maybe even until 10.5.2 or 10.5.3 from what others seem to be saying...

I'm still on 10.3.9 till those pesky 10.4 bugs get fixed.:rolleyes:

psychofreak
Nov 7, 2007, 06:12 PM
Nobody believed me on these forums when I said I thought that 10.5.0 was going to be buggy as hell because of the finagling around its release schedule and diversion of Apple's resources.
Tons of people thought that, even enough so as to make threads about waiting for 10.5.1 before release...

Thankfully, my Mac's bugs aren't too bad :)

andy721
Nov 7, 2007, 06:14 PM
What exactly is this repair permissions bug? I've just tried a repair permissions and it worked fine (this is on a 4 disk striped array configured as my Leopard boot disk)

Some encounter really long waits for the repair to be complete. Some take less time. Just a bug on some machines, I have a 7yr mac as stated in my signiture. Just meets the requirements for leopard. Maybe not in higher end comps but a few been having the problem with this.

FoxyKaye
Nov 7, 2007, 06:20 PM
And for the most part they were right.

I strongly disagree - look at MR's own forums on problems folks are having with Leopard. I'm not talking about 3rd party apps, but basic system functionality that runs the gamut from user interface issues down to problems with using Apple's own hardware. A bug is something that diminishes the user experience, either because of actual coding faults or poor planning and execution of features.

There's a lot more to Leopard that could have been ironed out before it hit Gold Master (excuse me, Golden Master) status if Apple hadn't been phreaking out on the iPhone. And yay for the iPhone, maybe once I see how rich of an SDK is going to be provided and how open it will be to 3rd party development in February, I'll finally applaud Apple for creating it. But Apple has been off its mark this year, Leopard is one product that suffers, and depending on what you're counting one could say that its hardware is also suffering too.

pgwalsh
Nov 7, 2007, 06:25 PM
I hope this fixes the squeaking noise I get whenever I recline in my chair. Yours too. I thought I was the only one.

mrhud
Nov 7, 2007, 06:31 PM
All 10.5.x updates will be free. The next pay update will be 10.6.

arn

I have heard that they will go straight to 11.0

Mac OS X Ocelot
Nov 7, 2007, 06:34 PM
I have heard that they will go straight to 11.0

That's speculation. People feel that Leopard is the pinnacle of OS 10 and believe that the only way to make things better is a major, major update. Also, they're running out of non-lame sounding cats.

oogje
Nov 7, 2007, 06:36 PM
There's a lot more to Leopard that could have been ironed out before it hit Gold Master (excuse me, Golden Master) status if Apple hadn't been phreaking out on the iPhone.

If Apple hadn't been phreaking out on the iPhone then Leopard would have probably been released in June likely as not with more bugs than now.

psychofreak
Nov 7, 2007, 06:37 PM
That's speculation. People feel that Leopard is the pinnacle of OS 10 and believe that the only way to make things better is a major, major update. Also, they're running out of non-lame sounding cats.

Leopard is not the pinnacle of OSs designed around this format (mouse and keyboard etc.), but the next evolutionary step could co-exist with a revolutionary OS (touch based?) as soon as 10.6 :)

Mac OS X Ocelot
Nov 7, 2007, 06:41 PM
Leopard is not the pinnacle of OSs designed around this format (mouse and keyboard etc.), but the next evolutionary step could co-exist with a revolutionary OS (touch based?) as soon as 10.6 :)

I did not mean in anyway that I felt Leopard is the pinnacle of OS 10, but that some people do (or did before it came out). The next OS being based on touch hardward is a neat idea. Probably not going to be the next major release though.

mrhud
Nov 7, 2007, 06:44 PM
Leopard is not the pinnacle of OSs designed around this format (mouse and keyboard etc.), but the next evolutionary step could co-exist with a revolutionary OS (touch based?) as soon as 10.6 :)

hmmm....touch. That would certainly make my screen very sticky while I surf and eat chicken wings.

Mac OS X Ocelot
Nov 7, 2007, 06:51 PM
hmmm....touch. That would certainly make my screen very sticky while I surf and eat chicken wings.

As opposed to getting your keyboard sticky and filthy and possibly not working.

niclet
Nov 7, 2007, 06:56 PM
menu bar transparency is not a bug, is there by Apple choice.

I'm sorry, I should write: "the not transparent menubar when it should because you have all the system requirement needed bug"

It had been largely discussed in the Apple forum, here for example (http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1197590&start=0&tstart=0).

However, I hope they will give users the possibility to choose this feature as they wish, in the System Preferences.

;)

Maniamac
Nov 7, 2007, 07:04 PM
I'm sorry, I should write: "the not transparent menubar when it should because you have all the system requirement needed bug"

It had been largely discussed in the Apple forum, here for example (http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1197590&start=0&tstart=0).

However, I hope they will give users the possibility to choose this feature as they wish, in the System Preferences.

;)

If you're referring to the GeForce FX 5200 or its mobile variant, then I have some bad news for you:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=306894

"Some graphics cards, such as an NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200, may not have the necessary OpenGL capabilities to display a translucent menu bar even though they are compatible with Core Image. Those cards should render most effects, but not the translucent menu bar."

On October 30, an Apple Support rep told me that a bug was responsible for the opaque menu bar, and that in "two to four weeks," 10.5.1 would fix it. The Support Doc, updated 6 November, makes it seem as though this is no longer the case.

EagerDragon
Nov 7, 2007, 07:05 PM
A bug is something that diminishes the user experience, either because of actual coding faults or poor planning and execution of features.


I guess you never been a programmer. A bug is a behaviour or fault that prevents the software from performing to the written specifications.

Last I look you were not one of the writers of that specification/requirement list.

Only when software does not work as specified, that it can be considered a bug. It has nothing to do with people expectations.

coleridge78
Nov 7, 2007, 07:07 PM
Time Machine not working with Air Disk is a real problem if you bought an Airport Extreme and an external hard drive specifically for Time Machine, ready for the Leopard launch...

Frankly, if you did that, you were... getting ahead of yourself, to put it nicely (some would say "just stupid", but I understand getting excited about stuff).

Never, never, never buy anything counting on preview "possible" feature lists. Ever. Period. From anybody. Never. Never. Never.

Have I said that enough? ;)

Anyway, I think the outrage over this issue is a bit bizarre. I mean, seriously. Running Time Machine backups, particularly the initial one, over your wireless connection will be stupid slow; it's a metric assload of data. If you're doing anything else at the time, you're going to be suffering with the latency to the point of madness. And if you're just going to let it run while you aren't using the machine, then why not just plug in the ethernet cable and leave it alone?

I just don't get it, frankly. It smacks of stupid, ill-considered knee-jerk whining.

EagerDragon
Nov 7, 2007, 07:11 PM
I'm sorry, I should write: "the not transparent menubar when it should because you have all the system requirement needed bug"

It had been largely discussed in the Apple forum, here for example (http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1197590&start=0&tstart=0).

However, I hope they will give users the possibility to choose this feature as they wish, in the System Preferences.

;)

Agreed, and it should be fixed, not sure about its priority since there are more serious issues that actually affect the reliability of the system / data and some affect the key (promotional) feature of the OS.

Funny how it is a bug when some people are crying that they hate the transparent menu bar. LOL.

Choice is good, lack of choice is a decision, ussually a temporary one.

gnasher729
Nov 7, 2007, 07:14 PM
Just updated to 10.5.1. Safari and iChat stopped working saying this (the same for iChat):
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/5276/picture1nt9.png
Lame :mad:
UPD: Preview, Adress Book, Automator, Dictionary, Font Book have the same issues. ******.

Probably done on purpose, to scare people away who download new versions only to post on MacRumors. Everything is disabled except software that had bugs that were fixed. That is what these developer seeds are there for: To check whether everything is right before 10.5.1 is released to the public.

EagerDragon
Nov 7, 2007, 07:16 PM
Frankly, if you did that, you were... getting ahead of yourself, to put it nicely (some would say "just stupid", but I understand getting excited about stuff).

Never, never, never buy anything counting on preview "possible" feature lists. Ever. Period. From anybody. Never. Never. Never.

Have I said that enough? ;)

Anyway, I think the outrage over this issue is a bit bizarre. I mean, seriously. Running Time Machine backups, particularly the initial one, over your wireless connection will be stupid slow; it's a metric assload of data. If you're doing anything else at the time, you're going to be suffering with the latency to the point of madness. And if you're just going to let it run while you aren't using the machine, then why not just plug in the ethernet cable and leave it alone?

I just don't get it, frankly. It smacks of stupid, ill-considered knee-jerk whining.

In my book you are both right.

He got ahead of him self but Apple did announce it as a feature and at the last minute pull-it out.

If (big if) he purchased it after it was posted that the feature was removed, then he also failed to check.

Apple already stated that they are working on it, and it looks like Leopard changes and Airport changes.

While I myself do not need this feature, if it was there it would provide additional features and flexibility to connect the disk to one desktop and share or to connect to the Airport.

PS. If you do your full backup while USB/Firewire connected, depending on how much you change every hour after that, the wireless backup takes a minute or two, which is not bad at all if you consider the flexibility it is providing.

If you are edditing multi-gig movies every hour of your day, you should be using a wired network anyway.

Alloye
Nov 7, 2007, 07:22 PM
Are you aware that without this sort of stuff macrumors would not even exist? Afaik, the admins have certain rules and they see they are not violated. So please take your law and morality campaign elsewhere.

Sorry, but no. My opinion is that ADC members should adhere to their NDA and keep their mouths shut. I believe it is within the guidelines for me to express that opinion here just as it is within the guidelines for you to disagree.

kakiser56
Nov 7, 2007, 07:22 PM
Personally I found this useful and now I know not to install this seed. I am an ADC member and I don't see how this violates the NDA?


If you are an ADC member:

1. Did you read the standard disclaimer in the seed note regarding the use of pre-release software on production systems?

2. Are you aware that you're in violation of your NDA?

EagerDragon
Nov 7, 2007, 07:28 PM
Sorry, but no. My opinion is that ADC members should adhere to their NDA and keep their mouths shut. I believe it is within the guidelines for me to express that opinion here just as it is within the guidelines for you to disagree.

I agree with you, but ...... the issue is between him/her and Apple, we should not really be involved, we are not vigilates.

However you are in your right to report the NDA issue to Apple.

Alloye
Nov 7, 2007, 07:38 PM
I agree with you, but ...... the issue is between him/her and Apple, we should not really be involved, we are not vigilates.

My point was to make sure the poster was aware of his/her responsibilities in the matter. It was not an attempt at enforcement. I agree that is solely within Apple's purview.

Alloye
Nov 7, 2007, 07:48 PM
Personally I found this useful and now I know not to install this seed. I am an ADC member and I don't see how this violates the NDA?

Read (http://developer.apple.com/membership/pdf/terms.pdf) item 7 of the Terms and Conditions followed by item 3 of the PLCA.

Mac OS X Ocelot
Nov 7, 2007, 07:51 PM
Can this thread be not about that one user and arguments over NDA? He's clearly not a developer and not violating any NDA, but just a user who stumbled on a developer seed and realized first hand what developer seeds really are (not updates).

kakiser56
Nov 7, 2007, 07:57 PM
OK, I read it and the Prototype License, still not sure, but you are right. Better to be safe than sorry and not discuss it.
I wish Apple had a message board where we could discuss it, it is a little frustrating not knowing if someone already has problem X or filed a bug report.

Read (http://developer.apple.com/membership/pdf/terms.pdf) item 7 of the Terms and Conditions followed by item 3 of the PLCA.

Alloye
Nov 7, 2007, 07:59 PM
I wish Apple had a message board where we could discuss it, it is a little frustrating not knowing if someone already has problem X or filed a bug report.

Amen! I'd even settle for a mailing list.

tribulation
Nov 7, 2007, 08:09 PM
Oh heaven forbid some bugs in the initial release of the company's biggest OS. The point is that the issues get resolved rather quickly, unlike some other companies...

It is estimated that for every 1000 lines of code, there is 1 bug in someone's code. The fact that operatig systems run as well as they do is a tribute to the developers and debuggers.

Quit whining.

i'd hardly call it whining but wont waste the time as its been said too many times since leopards debut.
some of the bugs are megaBUGS!! just cause you dont have problems doesnt mean others dont including me. MEGABUGS all over leopard,much more than any other mac os i can remember and i've been using since 84.
some of these megabugs are not minor by any standard.they are dealbreakers that make leopard unusable.theres no whining here just valid complaints about :apple: cutting major corners here to get it out on time,which wasnt even on time.
bugs are expected of course.but not some of these megabugs.there are huge bugs and faults in leopard that make it unusable by me and countless others.many have downgraded to tiger,I have for now.
it took me a whole 5 minutes to be hit with more than a few big bugs,like the graphic megabugs [do a search] and others.these are readily easily reproducible on other bto macs that are commonplace. out of my friends,probably 80% can pull up these horrid bugs right away.not something thats hiding in the shadows.there is no way,NO way that :apple: didnt know about many of these dealbreaker megabugs when shipping it. either that or they didnt bother,eitherway is just as bad
so stop with the 'stop whining' comments. you'd whine too if you upgraded to a 1.0 release and there were so many glaring bugs and defects

shyataroo
Nov 7, 2007, 08:20 PM
Where can we get this seed if we are not developers?

Join apple R&D

thejadedmonkey
Nov 7, 2007, 08:24 PM
i'd hardly call it whining but wont waste the time as its been said too many times since leopards debut.
some of the bugs are megaBUGS!! just cause you dont have problems doesnt mean others dont including me. MEGABUGS all over leopard,much more than any other mac os i can remember and i've been using since 84.
some of these megabugs are not minor by any standard.they are dealbreakers that make leopard unusable.theres no whining here just valid complaints about :apple: cutting major corners here to get it out on time,which wasnt even on time.
bugs are expected of course.but not some of these megabugs.there are huge bugs and faults in leopard that make it unusable by me and countless others.many have downgraded to tiger,I have for now.
it took me a whole 5 minutes to be hit with more than a few big bugs,like the graphic megabugs [do a search] and others.these are readily easily reproducible on other bto macs that are commonplace. out of my friends,probably 80% can pull up these horrid bugs right away.not something thats hiding in the shadows.there is no way,NO way that :apple: didnt know about many of these dealbreaker megabugs when shipping it. either that or they didnt bother,eitherway is just as bad
so stop with the 'stop whining' comments. you'd whine too if you upgraded to a 1.0 release and there were so many glaring bugs and defects

I'll admit.. I have no idea what you're talking about. I had issues at first, but after a few reboots to give OS X time to sort things out, it's working perfectly. Some areas have the same bugs that Tiger did, but everything else is working so much better. I guess it's just the luck of the draw.

eme jota ce
Nov 7, 2007, 08:27 PM
lol.. You can't.

That's the small minded answer -- as if there is an unobtainable standard of quality and reliability that will open the door only to those who can lol at the those who might actually need to ask the question. You should sell "If you have to ask, you can't afford it" items.

If you think your answer helps the dialogue here. You are wrong. Edit your response, JF.



BTW: My first negative comment / response in many years of visiting the site.

kaiwai
Nov 7, 2007, 08:28 PM
so leopard 10.5.1 will eventually be availiable / the bug fixes will eventually be availiable through a free software update. Is this right? Or does it mean you would have to buy a newer version of leopard to get the bug fixes?

Dear god, I hope you haven't fallen for the anti-Apple zealot ******** that you have to pay for every service pack.

cohibadad
Nov 7, 2007, 08:29 PM
Probably done on purpose, to scare people away who download new versions only to post on MacRumors. Everything is disabled except software that had bugs that were fixed. That is what these developer seeds are there for: To check whether everything is right before 10.5.1 is released to the public.

Personally I found this useful and now I know not to install this seed. I am an ADC member and I don't see how this violates the NDA?

If that message box is in the seed I haven't seen it. I wouldn't let it frighten you away from loading up 9B13. Seems perfectly stable and usable to me but what it fixes I couldn't say.

kaiwai
Nov 7, 2007, 08:31 PM
I just have to say that 10.5.0 has been very prone to freezes and glitches for me. I don't mind it at all though. The computer boots so quickly it's not a big deal. Not to mention I expected this since it's 10.5.0. Here's to hoping stability improves with each new build :apple:.

EDIT: This has really only been on my 24" iMac. My Macbook has been perfecto with Leopard.

And I assume you haven't installed the iMac update yet.....

kbmb
Nov 7, 2007, 08:33 PM
However, I hope they will give users the possibility to choose this feature as they wish, in the System Preferences.

;)

Since when does Apple 'give' users a choice?

I thought it was Steve's way, or the 3rd Party Hacks way?! ;)

-Kevin

kaiwai
Nov 7, 2007, 08:37 PM
I'm not trying to be rude, but ADC provides these seeds so we can test them and report any issues we find back to Apple engineers, not so we can inform the public about issues that may or may not exist when the release is final.

True, and all companies go through the same thing; for example, when I was testing Vermillion B76 (GNOME for Solaris) I came accross an evolution bug which the internal testing (employees within Sun) did not come across.

Whether something works or does is based on on the setup of the machine; what may have shown no inclination of problems with internal testing; once out in the wild with different combinations of software installed, might rear its ugly head.

HyperZboy
Nov 7, 2007, 08:38 PM
My biggest complaint is the 2-6 minute boot time for Powermac G4s and all 3rd party Nvidia video card upgrades. Since all such cards work fine in Tiger, it makes it seem like Apple is closing down Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard to 3rd party upgrades just like it's done to the iPhone. Either that or Apple is trying to discourage Powermac G4 users from using Leopard so they'll go out and buy a brand new Mac Pro. Sad either way. Fix it Apple. You know what you did. It's obviously purposeful since the bug affects so many graphics cards and all Powermac G4s using those Nvidia graphics cards.

niclet
Nov 7, 2007, 08:57 PM
If you're referring to the GeForce FX 5200 or its mobile variant, then I have some bad news for you:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=306894

"Some graphics cards, such as an NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200, may not have the necessary OpenGL capabilities to display a translucent menu bar even though they are compatible with Core Image. Those cards should render most effects, but not the translucent menu bar."

On October 30, an Apple Support rep told me that a bug was responsible for the opaque menu bar, and that in "two to four weeks," 10.5.1 would fix it. The Support Doc, updated 6 November, makes it seem as though this is no longer the case.

Ah! I'm disappointed. Well, I didn't saw the updated version. So I guess you're right, those cards will not cross the line!

But I thought other cards were involved in this "bug"?

megatronbomb
Nov 7, 2007, 08:58 PM
Time Machine not working with Air Disk is a real problem if you bought an Airport Extreme and an external hard drive specifically for Time Machine, ready for the Leopard launch...

Buying equipment that you hope might possibly work in conjunction with an unreleased OS is poor judgment... not a problem. Huge difference. ;)

DaBrain
Nov 7, 2007, 09:02 PM
Where can we get this seed if we are not developers?

Why would you want something that hasn't been fully tested and revised?

Patience is indeed a virtue. ;)

DaBrain
Nov 7, 2007, 09:08 PM
I feel your pain about the iDisk sync. Apple need to be reading up on all these customer problems. Do they read these boards?

Why not submit feedback directly to Apple, where you know it will be read?

Relying on forums and Apple to read all them is nuts!

I do know they read their feedback however. The more that people give Apple direct feedback the better chance your issue may get addressed! :)

cohibadad
Nov 7, 2007, 09:09 PM
My biggest complaint is the 2-6 minute boot time for Powermac G4s and all 3rd party Nvidia video card upgrades. Since all such cards work fine in Tiger, it makes it seem like Apple is closing down Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard to 3rd party upgrades just like it's done to the iPhone. Either that or Apple is trying to discourage Powermac G4 users from using Leopard so they'll go out and buy a brand new Mac Pro. Sad either way. Fix it Apple. You know what you did. It's obviously purposeful since the bug affects so many graphics cards and all Powermac G4s using those Nvidia graphics cards.

My Powermac Dual 1Ghz G4 with Nvidia card boots up in less than a minute.

Macnick
Nov 7, 2007, 09:31 PM
I hope they fix Leopard. This whole OS is a bug.

kaiwai
Nov 7, 2007, 09:34 PM
Actually, I had it working over Airdisk. One airdisk disconnect (surprise surprise) during a small backup (around 2mb) and I had to reformat the Time Machine disk. So.... Yes. It is shaky.

It was shaky - for you. With that being said, the consumer shouldn't be 'protected for their own good' - if the consumer wants to use their air disk, offer a warning each time it is launched about the unpredictability of using it, then leave the user alone.

For me, my wireless network is no less reliable than my wired; but then again, I tend not to have a mansion; every place my house is close to the base station.

tribulation
Nov 7, 2007, 09:35 PM
Why would you want something that hasn't been fully tested and revised?

Patience is indeed a virtue. ;)

10.5.0 is hardly well tested :rolleyes:

SthrnCmfrtr
Nov 7, 2007, 09:36 PM
It was shaky - for you. With that being said, the consumer shouldn't be 'protected for their own good' - if the consumer wants to use their air disk, offer a warning each time it is launched about the unpredictability of using it, then leave the user alone.

For me, my wireless network is no less reliable than my wired; but then again, I tend not to have a mansion; every place my house is close to the base station.

Wasn't I just arguing with you on Digg?

Jesus @#$%ing Christ, the Internets get smaller every day.

Infrared
Nov 7, 2007, 09:40 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/3A109a Safari/419.3)

disk utility issue I would think would fall under dusk management.

I think you meant to type "duck management". And
yes, the disk utility is not all it's quacked up to be.

Decrepit
Nov 7, 2007, 10:41 PM
If I get the graphics fix for my Mini in Time Machine and restoring to desktop, Leopard will be a 10/10.

If not, it will have to settle for 9.5/10.

madmax_2069
Nov 7, 2007, 11:17 PM
My Powermac Dual 1Ghz G4 with Nvidia card boots up in less than a minute.

BTW is yours Apple stock

He wasnt talking about a Geforce 4 MX, he was talking about Geforce cards like a 6200, 6600, 6800, AGP or 7800 GS AGP, or other Geforce card .

all of the cards like the above in a G4 system make leopard hang on boot for 2-6 minutes. these in a G5 running Leopard will usually not show any boot freeze even if they was a PC card flashed to Mac or stock.

now the same cards as mentioned above in a G4 running Leopard will result in a 2 - 6 minute boot freeze.

and the same cards flashed or not running on a G4 or G5 running Tiger work just fine with no issue what so ever, but a G4 with one of the above cards running Leopard
will result in a Boot freeze everytime

it seems as tho the Radeon's ( 9800 pro and others) cards flashed or not don't have a single issue on a G4 running leopard.

this is what he was talking about


and it seems as if Apple is trying to shut the door on Leopard

cohibadad
Nov 7, 2007, 11:37 PM
BTW is yours Apple stock

He wasnt talking about a Geforce 4 MX, he was talking about Geforce cards like a 6200, 6600, 6800, AGP or 7800 GS AGP, or other Geforce card .


and it seems as if Apple is trying to shut the door on Leopard

I can't remember if the card is stock it's been so long. I seem to remember upgrading the card after purchase but I may be wrong. But why would you assume Apple is intentionally causing this problem? Apple has never gone out of their way to support 3rd party video cards and I would assume this is just the result.

madmax_2069
Nov 7, 2007, 11:42 PM
I can't remember if the card is stock it's been so long. I seem to remember upgrading the card after purchase but I may be wrong. But why would you assume Apple is intentionally causing this problem? Apple has never gone out of their way to support 3rd party video cards and I would assume this is just the result.


then why does the same cards run just fine in Leopard on a G5 system and get a boot hang for 2 - 6 minutes on a G4.

also why does the same cards run just fine in Tiger on a G4

Data
Nov 7, 2007, 11:59 PM
I want SMS messaging out of Address Book back. I'm not impressed by features being deleted after I've paid 100+ for an upgrade.

I second that, where is that super functionality gone to ,damn .

PS i already send an email about it to the mac osx support team, thats all i can do basicly for now.

mixel
Nov 8, 2007, 12:25 AM
I second that, where is that super functionality gone to damn .

It's "gone" to the iPhone I suspect. :(

I loved that feature too, it was really handy if I needed to send text reaaally fast..

I've got to admit, Leopard has been slightly shaky for me.. Initially it was crashtastic.. kernel panics all over the place. It settled pretty fast and now I only have a full blown system freeze (where everything locks up other than the mouse) every couple of days.. Thats on my G5 anyway.. It's perfect on my Macbook (literally *no* issues).. A lot of the things .1 seems to be addressing seem promising as fixes for my G5's weird behaviour.. Here's hoping..

Oh, and weirdly my flashed 9800Pro has got much *more* reliable under leopard. There were certain core image tasks that replicatably froze the system under Tiger.. Now the same tasks don't anymore.. The current UI freezes I get seem to be related to USB storage.. Which is a pain as my TM drive is USB, queue huge indexing times with increased chance of hangs.. Wah. I'm really happy with Leopard sofar anyway.. Occasional hangs are worth it for the speed. Can't wait for .1 to see if it helps at all.

cohibadad
Nov 8, 2007, 12:37 AM
then why does the same cards run just fine in Leopard on a G5 system and get a boot hang for 2 - 6 minutes on a G4.

also why does the same cards run just fine in Tiger on a G4

I am no expert on this and I don't doubt that you could be right. So you are saying Apple coded Leopard intentionally to cause this problem on G4 hardware but not G5 hardware? Just seems unlikely to me. Not impossible. And their motive would be to force G4 hardware that had been upgraded to maximize performance and lengthen usable life to buy new Apple machines? I suppose to offset the number of people who upgraded to Leopard and gained performance, features, etc. rather than purchasing new machines? The number of Apple G4 buyers who upgraded their video card is probably lower by a couple magnitudes than even the number of potential Mac Pro mini potential buyers. Seems too devious and potentially self-destructive to go to all that trouble and cause themselves more support headaches.

iW00t
Nov 8, 2007, 12:40 AM
I have to disagree. Some protocols to transfer files just drop them over the wall and hope they get there. This is a backup, as such IT IS expected to arrive at the other end intact or the system needs to re-transmit. I do not think Apple is that stupid.

Considering Apple's programmers DELETE files before it is safely written during a move operation that encountered exceptions... think again.

trakais
Nov 8, 2007, 01:24 AM
I have none of your mentioned problems, but have these two important ones:

1. Safari crashes (freezes) quite often. Must force-quit and send report to apple

2. Front row stops playing when navigating away from music section or leaving FR. In Tiger it would keep playing in iTunes. FR also forgets what was playing and at what position. Very inconvenient if I want to leave FR to quickly check a Skype message for example

As for Time Machine and AirDisk - I think wireless is too slow and unreliable for now.

Peace! :apple:

spookje
Nov 8, 2007, 03:07 AM
Hopefully they will fix the printing issue (I can't print anymore to Windows network printers and Bonjour printers) and that they fix the Airport issues and the bugs related to Spaces. Menubar shown in the Spaces mode when you activate it during Quicktime Full Screen playback. Of course, also fixing the screenshot functionality which is currently broken will be nice too.

madmax_2069
Nov 8, 2007, 03:28 AM
also fixing the screenshot functionality which is currently broken will be nice too.

what are you talking about, screenshots isn't broken , command+shift+3 to take a full screenshot, command+shift+4 to select what you want to take a screenshot of (AKA drag the pointer over what you want to take a screenshot of).

works just fine for me

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/7479/picture1sw6.th.png (http://img171.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture1sw6.png)

this was taken using command+shift+4

or was you talking about taking screen grabs from a playing movie

spookje
Nov 8, 2007, 03:45 AM
I mean making screenshots by using the Apple-Shift-3 it then makes the Sound for the screenshot. But no images on the Desktop, Documents or Pictures folder. Not working... Full reinstall of MacOSX Leopard earlier.

If I look on the desktop I see this:


-rw-r--r--@ 1 thomas staff 0 Nov 8 10:43 .Picture 1.png-GtSR
-rw-r--r--@ 1 thomas staff 0 Nov 5 00:32 .Picture 1.png-HSS1
-rw-r--r--@ 1 thomas staff 0 Nov 5 00:32 .Picture 1.png-IcQa
-rw-r--r--@ 1 thomas staff 0 Nov 5 00:32 .Picture 1.png-Lazh
-rw-r--r--@ 1 thomas staff 0 Nov 5 00:32 .Picture 1.png-Nmzt
-rw-r--r--@ 1 thomas staff 0 Nov 8 10:43 .Picture 1.png-QTIA
-rw-r--r--@ 1 thomas staff 0 Nov 5 00:32 .Picture 1.png-ShjT
-rw-r--r--@ 1 thomas staff 0 Nov 5 00:30 .Picture 1.png-d2Zx
-rw-r--r--@ 1 thomas staff 0 Nov 5 00:30 .Picture 1.png-fMvK
-rw-r--r--@ 1 thomas staff 0 Nov 5 00:32 .Picture 1.png-j8We
-rw-r--r--@ 1 thomas staff 0 Nov 5 00:32 .Picture 1.png-sQTU
-rw-r--r--@ 1 thomas staff 0 Nov 5 00:32 .Picture 1.png-uQqU
-rw-r--r--@ 1 thomas staff 0 Nov 8 10:27 .Picture 1.png-wP3P
-rw-r--r--@ 1 thomas staff 0 Nov 8 10:43 .Picture 1.png-xmrW

sunfast
Nov 8, 2007, 04:06 AM
Updates are all good.

Judging from the chat in this thread I've been really lucky. 10.5.0 has been stable and fast for me and has sorted the slow WiFi speeds I've had since the first OS update my MacBook had. I've tried all of the apps I use and haven't had any probs.

But the more this OS matures, it can only get better

madmax_2069
Nov 8, 2007, 05:03 AM
But the more this OS matures, it can only get better

that it will

kaiwai
Nov 8, 2007, 05:10 AM
Wasn't I just arguing with you on Digg?

Jesus @#$%ing Christ, the Internets get smaller every day.

*shrugs* The last article I replied to on Digg was relating to GIMP; I certainly haven't had any arguments with anyone on digg as I tend to hang out more here, Appleinsider and arstechnica.

G-Force
Nov 8, 2007, 05:11 AM
I mean making screenshots by using the Apple-Shift-3 it then makes the Sound for the screenshot. But no images on the Desktop, Documents or Pictures folder. Not working... Full reinstall of MacOSX Leopard earlier.

If I look on the desktop I see this:
Cmd-Shift-3 works fine for me. :)

gnasher729
Nov 8, 2007, 06:25 AM
Can this thread be not about that one user and arguments over NDA? He's clearly not a developer and not violating any NDA, but just a user who stumbled on a developer seed and realized first hand what developer seeds really are (not updates).

You can't get a developer seed without either being under an NDA, or someone breaching their NDA. Either way, it is completely unethical and if Apple hangs them up by their ****s that's fine with me. I don't want anything that gives Apple reasons to make it harder for developers to get these seeds.

You should also remember that this is a trade secret violation, which is a criminal offence, whether you are under NDA or not.

jhande
Nov 8, 2007, 06:33 AM
Something tells me that Time Machine will not work via Airdisk until buggy firmware for aeBS (yes emphasis on BS) is fixed. The airdisk has never worked perfectly for me, on any of the firmware revisions.

Too right!! I keep the AEBS agent running in the hopes that it will one day suggest updating to something other than 7.2.1. 7.2 works, but I still have to reset (read: take disk out, connect to MB, mount, then unmount, plug it back in AEBS, pray it will last..... it never does) the disk.

I haven't even attempted the TM workaround to make it work on Airdisk. It's just not worth it.

How long have we been stuck with 7.2.1 anyway? Seems like forever :(

jhande
Nov 8, 2007, 06:45 AM
I would bet you 99.9% of the users have had nothing but good impressions (and I'll bet even higher than that). So no there is not a lack of spit-and-shine, just some honest to goodness bugs that are often because of customizations and changes. The issues in Leopard have been no worse than your average point release upgrade.

Its so funny that people seem to have latched onto this file move bug as an "OMG, LEOPARD IS SO BUGGY AND AWFUL" thing when even the press release itself state that this has been confirmed as far back as Panther. What does it have to do with Leopard?

I have to admit I am more impressed as I use it -- this is my first full day working on a leopard system, and I am impressed by the speed and responsiveness relative to Tiger, and I may warm to Spaces yet -- its implementation is slick, and combined with the other OSX interface niceties (bouncing icons to tell you input is needed) it seems to really work well.

Sure there are bugs -- stacks, the embarrassing issue of Time Machine not working with Aperture, but as a point-oh release its pretty good.

I made a test install on my iBook, which is only used to serve media. Everything went well. Then installed on the MB. For a dotzero release I'm very impressed.

What's really nice, is that I took a bunch of source-code from our production Solaris box, took out all the platform specific stuff in the headers, and compiled. After waiting for a while (approx. 4 cups of coffee), NO ERRORS. I mean none, not even a warning.

Called my boss in, started the program up..... End result? We've set up a group to talk to apple and set up an enterprise purchasing program!

This has NEVER been possible before on OSX!!. I predict that our development division will be running on M((B(P))/Pros)/XServes within 3 years. Well, maybe that's a bit optimistic, but.... :)

Yeah, the interface is new and shiny, but the UNIX certification is what really does it for me. They've done a fantastic job with the under-the-hood stuff.

iChester
Nov 8, 2007, 06:54 AM
I would bet you 99.9% of the users have had nothing but good impressions (and I'll bet even higher than that). So no there is not a lack of spit-and-shine, just some honest to goodness bugs that are often because of customizations and changes. The issues in Leopard have been no worse than your average point release upgrade.

Its so funny that people seem to have latched onto this file move bug as an "OMG, LEOPARD IS SO BUGGY AND AWFUL" thing when even the press release itself state that this has been confirmed as far back as Panther. What does it have to do with Leopard?

I have to admit I am more impressed as I use it -- this is my first full day working on a leopard system, and I am impressed by the speed and responsiveness relative to Tiger, and I may warm to Spaces yet -- its implementation is slick, and combined with the other OSX interface niceties (bouncing icons to tell you input is needed) it seems to really work well.

Sure there are bugs -- stacks, the embarrassing issue of Time Machine not working with Aperture, but as a point-oh release its pretty good.

I think this wraps up this whole discussion nicely.;)

jellomizer
Nov 8, 2007, 07:47 AM
Where can we get this seed if we are not developers?

You don't and you wouldn't want it. Really. Beta Versions of Patches for an existing bug. Doesn't sound like a good thing to have... People who use these developer versions normally don't have important information on their boxes and are confortable doing a clean whipe and reinstall if it doesn't work and can't undo. Many times the fix is worse then the actual bug. That is why it is tested.

slackpacker
Nov 8, 2007, 08:05 AM
I hope they fix Leopard. This whole OS is a bug.

Holy Shmoley..... You guys are all noobs to computers if your really that upset about Leopard...

Very upseting to see complaints when there should be no complaints about a perfectly fine upgrade.

Buschmaster
Nov 8, 2007, 08:20 AM
I second that, where is that super functionality gone to damn .
iChat can send SMS now. So it hasn't left completely and it hasn't just been given to the iPhone. ;)

glennyboiwpg
Nov 8, 2007, 08:38 AM
Considering Apple's programmers DELETE files before it is safely written during a move operation that encountered exceptions... think again.

Yes... Apple designed their app this way. I Think they actually had 6... no wait... 7 highly paid software designers have a meeting about this actually. They actually agreed that, they wanted Mac OS X to delete files without a succesful copy.


YOUR AN MORON! This is BUG, not a FEATURE. It wasn't 'programmed' that way on purpose!

eenu
Nov 8, 2007, 08:43 AM
Well, in fact, there is nothing secret on my screen, you can get this if you try to use leopard's app on tiger etc.
And I just gave all you an impression of this update (while Release Notes saying about no issues). I thought it will be interesting for Macrumors forums members.

As a registered dev myself with 10.5.1.... as far as i can see you have violated the NDA.

Everything is disabled except software that had bugs that were fixed.

Not quite sure why you said that not only for the fact that Safari has some issues of its own...

thefunkymunky
Nov 8, 2007, 08:52 AM
Cmd-Shift-3 works fine for me. :)

Same er :p

igazza
Nov 8, 2007, 09:58 AM
is it just me or does pairing remotes not work in leopard .0

MonkeyClaw
Nov 8, 2007, 10:36 AM
You can't get a developer seed without either being under an NDA, or someone breaching their NDA. Either way, it is completely unethical and if Apple hangs them up by their ****s that's fine with me. I don't want anything that gives Apple reasons to make it harder for developers to get these seeds.

You should also remember that this is a trade secret violation, which is a criminal offence, whether you are under NDA or not.

Oh go away already. Since when did so many Macrumors users get all preachy and high and mighty, its gettin fricken annoying...

electronboy
Nov 8, 2007, 10:52 AM
hopefully, they will allow us to tone down the dock, which in its current 10.5.0 incarnation is just visual overload. and I don't want to hack or modify the OS to do it.

Data
Nov 8, 2007, 11:22 AM
iChat can send SMS now. So it hasn't left completely and it hasn't just been given to the iPhone. ;)

Realy i did not know that, but i have a lot of contacts that are in my adressbook but not in my ichat buddy list, basicly because most people i know use msn instead of ichat. So the functionality has not improved.
I'll have to look into this to see if this might work in the same way as it did with adressbook, but thanks for pointing it out .

mixel
Nov 8, 2007, 11:23 AM
iChat can send SMS now. So it hasn't left completely and it hasn't just been given to the iPhone. ;)

Well, it kinda has - The SMS support in iChat is US only, and doesnt work on some networks even there.. I'm in the UK.

The SMS functionality in Addressbook worked everywhere regardless of network.. All you needed was bluetooth - the phone did the work.

The SMS functionality in iChat isn't a new home for the old feature, it's a different take on it - Pretty much every "real" IM client has supported SMS messaging for ages.. The removal from Addressbook is a seperate issue and a bit annoying for people who used it. It should be in *both* places now really.

thewhitehart
Nov 8, 2007, 12:57 PM
Leopard has vanquished my disappearing airport connection that I've been having since 10.4.7. I made numerous posts about my airport signal blanking out and my network disappearing from the list, requiring a hard reset to get it back again.

The microwave was the culprit, and even interference robustness couldn't stop it. Microwave goes on, network disappears on core duo iMac running Tiger.

Now that I'm running Leopard, the microwave only slows the connection. My home network never disappears now! Thanks Apple for finally fixing this problem!

Other than a sharing pane bug, slow permission checking, and some .mac shenanigans, Leopard has been solid for me after a clean install.

50548
Nov 8, 2007, 02:17 PM
The only problem I have is, that some 3rd party vendors are not Leopard ready on time and you can't blame Apple for that. In general 10.5 runs fine.

Apart from the "data underrun" error that I got after updating QT and iTunes (and which seems to be totally solved after resetting the SMU), the "long" repair permissions thing and the single blue screen after installing, pretty much EVERYTHING else works fine and much snappier than Tiger, especially Safari, Mail and Finder.

I am actually impressed with how well Leopard works with existing software...NONE of my apps had to be reinstalled or updated. So much for comparisons with Vista...:rolleyes:

seashellz2
Nov 8, 2007, 03:28 PM
I hate to point this out, but the 10.5 we are using now for all intents and purposes, is still pre GM-beta-by a seed or two.

We expect this type of stuff from MS OS's-which are not only perpetually 'in beta' but are probably also still and always will be in an early developer seed-which nevertheless is sold to the masses retail.

Would you buy and drive an automobile or a TV set that had stacks of problems, or had to go back for service fixes once a month?
Aside from some of the things that just dont work, the system has an unstable or unfinished feeling about it..

And I really hate to take from 5 to 10 minutes to repair permissions FROM THE BOOT DISK, and then from a fresh install DU on top of that.
In Tiger it was 10-15 SECONDS...

I wonder about the yellow dialog box that sometime appears when i shut down or reboot, that says something like: "Hold on! we need to refill the system cache before we can proceed" then it takes up to 15 seconds to let go of me. Or Apple telling us that when an obscure warning appears in DU- to 'just ignore it' WTF?!

I also wonder at this late date, why, when we have hundreds of fonts on our system, we cannot yet choose our own system fonts without using SILK, like in OS 9?

You spend $129-or from $1200 to $5000 on something, then you have the right to expect it to work properly, as advertised.
Not 'sorta OK' , or 'pretty much OK' or '95% finished' -or "Not quite finished but we will sell it to ya-and worry about making it work at a higher level near to what we advertised, later on, Bub!"

I realize software is a nebulous subject, and is mostly a work in progress in terms of "finished" but surely they can release a Leopard that is a lot more finished and much less buggy and problematic than what we own now.

APPLE prides itself on QUALITY.
Its NOT asking too much to get it.

stcanard
Nov 8, 2007, 03:42 PM
Okay, I'm curious -- why are people focusing so much on a long time to repair permissions?

What, honestly, does repair permissions do for you in Leopard, or in Tiger for that matter?

I think I repaired permissions once in Tiger, about 3 months ago, on both my Intel and PPC systems out of curiosity and it found nothing.

10 minutes to repair permissions isn't a bug because frankly the function itself IS USELESS! The system installs with the correct permissions already.

It reminds me of the fighter jets that had buttons on either side of the dashboard to fix a flat spin -- they weren't actually hooked up to anything, their sole purpose was to make the pilot feel like he was doing something while the real fix was to get him to take his hands off the control stick and let the computer sort it out.

Repairing permissions makes your system feel better because your feel like you've done something. Apple probably stuck a "sleep 600" in their code figuring that the people that like to do this will feel its even more effective when it takes longer.

/RANT

Timothy Flint
Nov 8, 2007, 04:09 PM
From all the problems I've heard about, and all the programs that won't run, it looks as if Leopard is stacking up to be Apple's answer to Vista. Sorry Leopard, I'll stay with Tiger. It works on G4s and G5s, it accesses Airport and it runs Adobe programs, none of which Leopard can do.

50548
Nov 8, 2007, 04:57 PM
From all the problems I've heard about, and all the programs that won't run, it looks as if Leopard is stacking up to be Apple's answer to Vista. Sorry Leopard, I'll stay with Tiger. It works on G4s and G5s, it accesses Airport and it runs Adobe programs, none of which Leopard can do.

1 - Leopard works with G5s; I have one.

2 - It accesses Airport;

3 - It runs Adobe programs.

Apart from the glitches identified in this thread by some users (myself included), what the hell are you talking about? Do you really want to compare it with Vista?

Again: NONE of my 162 applications had to be reinstalled or updated. NONE. Is this Vista-redux? I don't frickin' think so.

MonkeyClaw
Nov 8, 2007, 06:23 PM
From all the problems I've heard about, and all the programs that won't run, it looks as if Leopard is stacking up to be Apple's answer to Vista. Sorry Leopard, I'll stay with Tiger. It works on G4s and G5s, it accesses Airport and it runs Adobe programs, none of which Leopard can do.

Yea I have it on my PowerBook G4 so you probably have no idea what you are talking about. I have it on a Mac Pro too and I installed it via upgrade even. No issues what so ever. It was the easiest most seamless upgrade I've ever had to perform. I really think half the people complaining don't really have issues, they are just jealous vista users repeating issues that really only a very very very small minority have. Remember for every pissed off forum post, there are a good 10 or 20 that have nothing to say cause Leopard is pretty solid for them.

mixel
Nov 8, 2007, 08:11 PM
Ugh, why do so many people on both side of the fence think their experience (or even what they read) is in some way illustrative of a trend?

A lot of people are having issues. A lot of people AREN'T having issues - there's no reason to think people are just stirring things up *or* being "Apple apologists".. I'm on both sides of the fence - installed on 2 intel macs perfectly, had various issues on my G5, but its workable. They'll fix everything up anyway I suspect.

The guys who are waiting before upgrading aren't being dumb - I wouldn't choose to wait myself but I can understand why they are.. The issues talked about are all real and they've really messed with a lot of people.

Tim: I'm running Photoshop on my G5 in Leopard right now. Weird! :p

gwangung
Nov 8, 2007, 08:24 PM
A lot of people are having issues. A lot of people AREN'T having issues - there's no reason to think people are just stirring things up *or* being "Apple apologists".. I'm on both sides of the fence - installed on 2 intel macs perfectly, had various issues on my G5, but its workable. They'll fix everything up anyway I suspect.

The guys who are waiting before upgrading aren't being dumb - I wouldn't choose to wait myself but I can understand why they are.. The issues talked about are all real and they've really messed with a lot of people.

This is the most intelligent thing said for the last 10 pages.;)

lawrencewinkler
Nov 8, 2007, 08:59 PM
1. Mail loses RSS feeds, then they reappear.
2. Sync of address book destroyed many entries in my address book (and generated spurious ones)
3. iCal not syncing -- too many conflicts (there really are none)
4. Some third party apps not working -- Leopard fails to maintain backward compatibility.
5. Sync of Keychain detecting many modifications (over 5%)
6. Safari is still not as robust as Firefox -- either cannot handle certain sites functionally, or the display is inaccurate. This is a problem independent of OS.
a. Oracle's E-Business Suite is not handled by Safari -- Firefox can handle
7. Safari popup blocker functionality needs to be parameterized by URL (to allow popups from certain sites, not allow from others). This has been a standard feature of other browsers for a couple of years now -- but not Safari!
8. Oracle JDeveloper (a Java IDE) does not work properly under Tiger or Leopard (likely the embedded application server is not executing correctly).

Some of the above problems are long standing, especially with Java and Safari and I wonder whether Apple really cares enough to fix functional issues, but prefers to place the efforts on cool new stuff first.

The problems with Leopard can be caused by many things.

One, it was rushed to meet the October deadline in spite of known and serious problems, and over-reliance on a over-forgiving public.

Two, the internal or third party testers did not find the problems or report them to Apple. Perhaps the latter failure, if it occurred, is partly to blame on overconfidence in Apple's quality. If that is the case, those responsible for finding and reporting problems did not do their jobs.

The only way to ensure that Apple maintain the quality of their products, for which I am usually quite satisfied, is to not let them off the hook when they fail to meet reasonable quality expectations. Quality products is simply hard work, and Apple needs to allow and support the maintenance of that quality.

Leopard 10.5 does not meet the standards of a GM.

odinsride
Nov 8, 2007, 09:53 PM
a. Oracle's E-Business Suite is not handled by Safari -- Firefox can handle

This is not Apple's fault - Oracle is only certified to run on IE, Firefox, Netscape, and maybe some others. Safari is not a supported browser.

8. Oracle JDeveloper (a Java IDE) does not work properly under Tiger or Leopard (likely the embedded application server is not executing correctly).

There's a Mac OS X edition of JDeveloper that works under Tiger. I haven't tried on Leopard, but I'm sure it's fine. I find it strange that you think it doesn't work at all under OSX, because the development team for JDev develops on OSX.

John Musbach
Nov 8, 2007, 10:31 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

As expected (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/11/05/apple-preparing-for-mac-os-x-10-5-1/), Apple has started seeding Mac OS 10.5.1 to developers for testing. The latest seed carries a build number of 9B13 and offers a number of fixes.

Apple details a number of issues addressed in the seed. Specifically, there have been fixes to Mail Sync, Spotlight Index, Disk Management, Text Drawing, iCal and CalDAV syncing, Keychain login, Read-Only Issue with SMB, AirPort 802.1X, Application Firewall, To-Do Notes, and Smart Mailboxes.

Apple released Mac OS X Leopard on October 26th (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/26/mac-os-x-leopard-launch-events/) and sold (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/30/apple-sells-two-million-copies-of-leopard-in-first-weekend/) over 2 million copies in the first weekend. There have been some vocal complaints about bugs in the first version of Mac OS X 10.5.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/11/07/apple-seeds-mac-os-x-10-5-1-9b13/)This is good, sounds like they're going to take this opportunity to fix at least most of the bugs currently being reported. As a result it seems like those who are waiting for 10.5.1 will noticeably benefit, good stuff :)

lawrencewinkler
Nov 10, 2007, 03:05 PM
This is not Apple's fault - Oracle is only certified to run on IE, Firefox, Netscape, and maybe some others. Safari is not a supported browser.



There's a Mac OS X edition of JDeveloper that works under Tiger. I haven't tried on Leopard, but I'm sure it's fine. I find it strange that you think it doesn't work at all under OSX, because the development team for JDev develops on OSX.

Oracle is not certified under Safari because Safari cannot handle the web pages which EBS produces. It's not Oracle's responsibility to fix Safari; that's Apple's job. And since Firefox on Tiger and Leopard does seem to work, it's Safari's problem only. Oracle shouldn't have to write special renderers for Safari -- it either handles html, javascript and css properly or it does not. And Safari does NOT; Firefox on OSX does.

As for JDeveloper, I did not say or imply that JDeveloper does not work under OSX. Oracle does supply a .dmg for JDeveloper under OSX and the installation works fine. JDeveloper seems to work for the most part. Because JDeveloper and the embedded application server are written in Java, these components should work the same on any platform. However, if one executes the Oracle supplied SRDEMO tutorial, one finds that some of web page graphics fail to appear on some pages, likely due to the application server's mishandling of image paths. No problem under Windows.

Also, under a certain sequence of page request orders, the SRDemo application under OSX is unable to find database records, which exist and which are appropriately displayed under Windows, running any one of several version of Java 1.5.

The JDeveloper issue can be an Oracle problem, if Oracle has written Windows-specific code in Java, and not an Apple problem, but the "bugs" do render use of JDeveloper on OSX unreliable. I have not run JDeveloper under Linux, so I don't know if this problem exists on that platform.

cohibadad
Nov 10, 2007, 06:10 PM
Oracle is not certified under Safari because Safari cannot handle the web pages which EBS produces. It's not Oracle's responsibility to fix Safari; that's Apple's job. And since Firefox on Tiger and Leopard does seem to work, it's Safari's problem only. Oracle shouldn't have to write special renderers for Safari -- it either handles html, javascript and css properly or it does not. And Safari does NOT; Firefox on OSX does.


How is that you list this under Leopard having serious problems then say it works with Firefox? Wow. What a serious problem with Leopard. And it is pretty ridiculous to say suggest they don't code to work with browsers as if they just make their code using standards and low and behold IE works with it. Please spare us.

lawrencewinkler
Nov 10, 2007, 07:51 PM
How is that you list this under Leopard having serious problems then say it works with Firefox? Wow. What a serious problem with Leopard. And it is pretty ridiculous to say suggest they don't code to work with browsers as if they just make their code using standards and low and behold IE works with it. Please spare us.

Safari 3.0 was beta until released with Leopard. Apple made some improvements in the speed and added some functionality, however, they did not correct known problems (known to me, and known to them for several years, as I send them bug reports whenever I find a site that Safari does not handle, and especially when Firefox does support the site under any version of Mac OSX).

Apple advertises Safari as being the best, most compatible browser out there, and therefore it needs to be. If Firefox works under OSX then so should Safari. The issue of sites building for IE only is an issue as it reflects general or purposeful ignorance of developers that there is a world besides Microsoft, and the use of media files for which there are no browser plugins for other than Microsoft products is unforgivable. There are sites such as Solution Beacon which specifically check that the browser is running under Windows OS and forbids other OSes from access to their recorded webinar archives.

But there is no excuse for Apple continuing to push a browser with less compatibility than Firefox. Firefox is open source, meaning Apple developers can learn how to correct the problems Safari has by looking at code that works.

The ability to handle MS-centric web sites is out of Apple's control, and any OSX browser will be any the same position.

The quality of Apple's hardware and OS and most software written by Apple and third parties are otherwise quite impressive. Safari sticks out as a long-term aberration which needs to be corrected, without apologists excusing them.

cohibadad
Nov 10, 2007, 09:31 PM
Of the three main browsers, Safari is the youngest and I do give it a break. It is quite impressive as it develops but by no means perfect. As standardization progresses hopefully there will no longer be the option/need to improvise in browser behavior. But I think you miss my point. Safari isn't Leopard. Safari 3 is not Leopard only as it will be released for Tiger with 10.4.11. The serious problem you listed is a Safari problem or a problem with Oracle, not Leopard. My objection to your post is that you title it serious problems with Leopard and your last 4 points are not Leopard or Leopard only.

Kilamite
Nov 11, 2007, 03:38 AM
Boy, I've said it a lot of times but I really hope they fix the Airport Disk issue.

The performance is bloody awful - sometimes it'll take 20mins to transfer a 100MB file. On a good day, it'll do that in about a minute.

My flat mates who use PC's get constant speeds. They can also stream video off the Airport Disk and get smooth playback - in Leopard I have to copy it to my desktop because I get stutters every minute or so.

madmax_2069
Nov 11, 2007, 03:46 AM
Safari 3.0 was beta until released with Leopard. Apple made some improvements in the speed and added some functionality, however, they did not correct known problems (known to me, and known to them for several years, as I send them bug reports whenever I find a site that Safari does not handle, and especially when Firefox does support the site under any version of Mac OSX).

Apple advertises Safari as being the best, most compatible browser out there, and therefore it needs to be. If Firefox works under OSX then so should Safari. The issue of sites building for IE only is an issue as it reflects general or purposeful ignorance of developers that there is a world besides Microsoft, and the use of media files for which there are no browser plugins for other than Microsoft products is unforgivable. There are sites such as Solution Beacon which specifically check that the browser is running under Windows OS and forbids other OSes from access to their recorded webinar archives.

But there is no excuse for Apple continuing to push a browser with less compatibility than Firefox. Firefox is open source, meaning Apple developers can learn how to correct the problems Safari has by looking at code that works.

The ability to handle MS-centric web sites is out of Apple's control, and any OSX browser will be any the same position.

The quality of Apple's hardware and OS and most software written by Apple and third parties are otherwise quite impressive. Safari sticks out as a long-term aberration which needs to be corrected, without apologists excusing them.

have you also went here to report this issue

http://webkit.org/

HailToTheVictor
Nov 11, 2007, 02:07 PM
Apple needs to fix whatever the hell is causing Safari to crash. It has happened four times since last night, I can't deal with this trying to do research when I have a lot of windows opened in different spaces, THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE APPLE!:mad:

Virgil-TB2
Nov 12, 2007, 03:43 PM
I hate to point this out, but ...I hate to point this out but you don't really know what you're talking about.

The worst thing about Leopard so far is the removal of several features at the last second like Airdisk support etc.

The feature set as delivered is clearly no more buggy than 10.4 when it came out. It is also a completely different kettle of fish than something like Vista which was rushed to market to forestall a financial disaster based on promised release dates in "assurance" contracts that MS made with their biggest customers.

Vista can easily (and rightfully), be labelled with the "beta" moniker, but Leopard is a very stable GM overall and just needs the usual bug fixes.

Virgil-TB2
Nov 12, 2007, 03:54 PM
From all the problems I've heard about, and all the programs that won't run, it looks as if Leopard is stacking up to be Apple's answer to Vista. Sorry Leopard, I'll stay with Tiger. It works on G4s and G5s, it accesses Airport and it runs Adobe programs, none of which Leopard can do.This is just stupid. :eek:

I am posting this from a G4 "Quicksilver" tower. It was bought 6 years ago in July 2001 and has had a hard drive upgrade and a bit more memory added in the interim. It runs Leopard great and seems (subjectively) faster although I know it is probably not in actuality.

It still has the stock video card so the graphic transitions in Leopard can be jerky or pause sometimes, but if I upgraded the card (roughly 50 bucks), I could run Leopard on this machine for years yet.