Bush: If I Were Iraqi, I’d Be Saying, ‘God, I Love Freedom’

[solvs]

You know, sometimes I wonder if he really is this oblivious, or if he knows it's b.s.

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/11/07/bush-iraq-freedom/

This afternoon, President Bush held a joint press conference with French President Nicholas Sarkozy. A reporter asked Bush where he stood “on Iraq and your domestic debate on Iraq,” and whether he had a timetable for withdrawing U.S. troops. In response, Bush insisted that “freedom’s happening” and Iraq isn’t in a “quagmire”:

I don’t — you know quagmire is an interesting word. If you lived in Iraq and had lived under a tyranny, you’d be saying: God, I love freedom, because that’s what’s happened.

And there are killers and radicals and murderers who kill the innocent to stop the advance of freedom. But freedom’s happening in Iraq. And we’re making progress.
Really?

In other news, a bunch of Iraqi policemen just got blown up again.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-11/08/content_7035290.htm

[Queso]

He can't honestly think he's kidding anyone anymore surely...

[it5five]

He can't honestly think he's kidding anyone anymore surely...

He's got Barney fooled.


That's about it.

[Swarmlord]

In other news, a bunch of Iraqi policemen just got blown up again.



Really? We just had a cop shot in the head in a Dunkin Donuts for no reason too. I'm sure that disproves the theory that we love freedom too.

[Queso]

Really? We just had a cop shot in the head in a Dunkin Donuts for no reason too. I'm sure that disproves the theory that we love freedom too.
There you go then. You're just as free as the Iraqis....

Lucky you.

[kainjow]

We just had a cop shot in the head in a Dunkin Donuts for no reason too.

Why does it seem like the topic of donuts keeps coming up in this forum? :p

[Swarmlord]

There you go then. You're just as free as the Iraqis....

Lucky you.

No, the presence of random violence does not indicate the presence or lack of freedom.

[Buschmaster]

Really? We just had a cop shot in the head in a Dunkin Donuts for no reason too. I'm sure that disproves the theory that we love freedom too.
And that happens all the time, and it happened LOOOOOOONG before the MNF was there.

I think there is a certain egotistical feel that we like to feel like we're making a big impact, if it is good or bad. Like a lot of people with global warming. Not to say we're not having an impact on the Earth, of course we are.

[Blue Velvet]

No, the presence of random violence does not indicate the presence or lack of freedom.


It doesn't? What does freedom mean to you? What does it mean to any of us?

Free to do what? Free to be what? Free from what?

[Buschmaster]

It doesn't? What does freedom mean to you? What does it mean to any of us?

Free to do what? Free to be what? Free from what?
Freedom will mean something different to everyone you ask, depending largely on their life experience.

If you lived under a terrible leader, there is a chance you would think that getting rid of them and getting a new leader would be freedom.

Like many American's are probably thinking about 2008 when they read that sentence...

I'm not saying Bush was smart is saying this, or in much at all of what he says. But I understand what he's saying.

[Swarmlord]

It doesn't? What does freedom mean to you? What does it mean to any of us?

Free to do what? Free to be what? Free from what?

Are you saying that a single individual through a random act of violence can eliminate freedom in a free country? Is freedom tied to body count? If so, we have tens of thousands dying on our freeways every year.

[Queso]

Are you saying that a single individual through a random act of violence can eliminate freedom in a free country?
Several US presidents have done just that over the decades. Just not in the USA.

[leekohler]

Are you saying that a single individual through a random act of violence can eliminate freedom in a free country? Is freedom tied to body count? If so, we have tens of thousands dying on our freeways every year.

Quit being obtuse. Just once I would like to see you honestly discuss something instead of mentioning things such as "a cop got shot in the Dunkin Donuts". You think that's comparable to what is going on in Iraq? Honestly?

[Blue Velvet]

Are you saying that a single individual through a random act of violence can eliminate freedom in a free country?


No. I asked a question... and what's more, to ascribe the levels of current violence and oppression within Iraq to 'random' factors is a little disingenuous.

Freedom to go to the market to shop for your family without being blown to bits by a car bomb... freedom to live without a foreign occupying force on your soil... freedom to have the once-reliable water and electricity supplies that you once had?

Freedom is just a buzzword, mere lip-service to the real needs of a civilised society. No-one is truly free.

[yg17]

Are you saying that a single individual through a random act of violence can eliminate freedom in a free country? Is freedom tied to body count? If so, we have tens of thousands dying on our freeways every year.

If I can't walk into a Dunkin Donuts without being worried that I'm going to be shot, then yes, I'd feel like some of my freedom has been eliminated.

[mactastic]

No, the presence of random violence does not indicate the presence or lack of freedom.
You are quite correct. Random violence does not correlate with freedom.

But those cops were not random victims. They were targeted for political purposes; which is a completely different thing. When we're looking for an excuse to invade, we call that kind of thing politically-motivated violence terrorism.

[mactastic]

Freedom is just a buzzword, mere lip-service to the real needs of a civilised society. No-one is truly free.
'Tis true.

To quote the Vandals...
America stands for freedom / But if you think you're free / Try walkin' into a deli /And urinating on the cheese.

Sorry, random flashback.

[IJ Reilly]

I say, make him an Iraqi. He wouldn't be missed by 75% of the people in this country.

[hulugu]

No, the presence of random violence does not indicate the presence or lack of freedom.

Are you saying that a single individual through a random act of violence can eliminate freedom in a free country? Is freedom tied to body count? If so, we have tens of thousands dying on our freeways every year.

Endemic violence is significantly different than the deaths because of accidents.
Crashing your car into a tree on the way to work is very different from being kidnapped, executed, and tossed into the Euphrates. And you know it.

Furthermore, while the Iraqis currently enjoy a great deal of abstract freedom, their lives are actually governed a series of limitations that you apparently cannot grasp. They can't drive down the highway without the possibility that they will be shot, kidnapped, or blown up, (EDIT) including the possibility that they may be run over or fired on by US armored vehicles on the highway.
In Baghdad, there are enclaves on Sunnis who cannot go beyond the concrete and concertina-wire that protected them.

[Thomas Veil]

Aside from the obliviousness, anybody see anything wrong with
If you lived in Iraq and had lived under a tyranny, you’d be saying: God, I love freedom, because that’s what’s happened.Yeah, an Iraqi would say that. :rolleyes:

I say, make him an Iraqi. He wouldn't be missed by 75% of the people in this country.Or by 100% of the Iraqis.

If you know what I mean. ;)

[carbonmotion]

I think a really great national characteristic of America is this "can do attitude"
I'm no sure if the situation in Iraq can be improved by this attitude alone though. I'm also not sure if you say it's happening often, it really will happen. That doesn't seem like a reasonable way of looking at things.

[psychofreak]

Aside from the obliviousness, anybody see anything wrong with
Yeah, an Iraqi would say that. :rolleyes:

Or by 100% of the Iraqis.

If you know what I mean. ;)

Translated, God is Allah, clearly they would be speaking Arabic...

[Swarmlord]

Quit being obtuse. Just once I would like to see you honestly discuss something instead of mentioning things such as "a cop got shot in the Dunkin Donuts". You think that's comparable to what is going on in Iraq? Honestly?

Well, look at the other side of the coin. Every time an Iraqi malcontent blows himself and a couple police up, there are people wringing their hands and whining that all is lost when the population of Iraq numbers in the MILLIONS.

[Swarmlord]

Endemic violence is significantly different than the deaths because of accidents.
Crashing your car into a tree on the way to work is very different from being kidnapped, executed, and tossed into the Euphrates. And you know it.

Furthermore, while the Iraqis currently enjoy a great deal of abstract freedom, their lives are actually governed a series of limitations that you apparently cannot grasp. They can't drive down the highway without the possibility that they will be shot, kidnapped, blown up, or run over by US armored vehicles. In Baghdad, there are enclaves on Sunnis who cannot go beyond the concrete and concertina-wire that protected them.

They are far more at risk from their own people then they are from our troops and you know it.

[Queso]

They are far more at risk from their own people then they are from our troops and you know it.
Either way it doesn't exactly result in a recognisable definition of freedom does it?

[MacNut]

If the Iraqis want us gone so badly and they want the violence to stop then why don't they stand up for themselves and fight against the fundamentalist and extremists and take a stand. Not just blame the Americans for all of their problems. Im not saying that they can do it alone but they need to make an effort to better their own country before we can think of leaving. I get the feeling that they like using the troops as a scapegoat for all of their countries' problems.

[it5five]

why don't they stand up for themselves and fight against the fundamentalist and extremists and take a stand.

Your extremist and fundamentalist is someone else's resistance and freedom fighter. You'll notice that these "extremists" are attacking the US troops, who are the occupying force in the country. They are taking a stand, against the US, who is the aggressor.

[MacNut]

Your extremist and fundamentalist is someone else's resistance and freedom fighter. You'll notice that these "extremists" are attacking the US troops, who are the occupying force in the country. They are taking a stand, against the US, who is the aggressor.They are doing after their own people too. What do the Iraqis say as a country about wanted the US to leave. We know what they think in Bagdad but what is the overall feeling. We only hear snippets from the media.

[obeygiant]

Your extremist and fundamentalist is someone else's resistance and freedom fighter. You'll notice that these "extremists" are attacking the US troops, who are the occupying force in the country. They are taking a stand, against the US, who is the aggressor.

They are also taking a stand against their own people and/or Iraqi civilians.
If those freedom fighters you speak of wouldn't blow up people, US troops might actually be able to leave sooner.

[hulugu]

They are far more at risk from their own people then they are from our troops and you know it.

I think you've misunderstood my point. The average Iraqis current "commute" includes a gauntlet of dangers that it's simple ridiculous to compare the two. This includes the possibility that their car may be fired upon or run-over by US vehicles, however I was not trying to say that all the other things in that list were committed by US troops. It was a poorly worded sentence.

[hulugu]

Your extremist and fundamentalist is someone else's resistance and freedom fighter. You'll notice that these "extremists" are attacking the US troops, who are the occupying force in the country. They are taking a stand, against the US, who is the aggressor.

No, they're not. These "extremists" are engaging in sectarian warfare against their own people for political and religious power. And, they're attacking US troops for being the occupier and for the consequences of violence US troops engaged in.

Let's not get into some good guy/bad guy meme where we argue about who's worse and who's better. There's some wonderful Iraqis who were minding their own business up until their house was shelled, and there are Iraqis who have used this as an excuse to torture and execute their own countrymen under the flag of a broken ideology. There are US troops who have done everything in their power to protect Iraqis and there are US troops who have willfully fired on civilians and brought death and destruction in their wake.
The story is a lot more complicated than aggressors versus insurgents.

[SMM]

He can't honestly think he's kidding anyone anymore surely...

Remember the strategy; keep saying "we are winning, we are winning, we are winning..." and soon the lie becomes perception. This is a marketing axiom.

Wasn't it Goebbels who proclaimed that you can tell a lie, no matter how big, but if you tell it often enough, the majority will believe it?

In Bill Moyers program, Buying the War, the administration's use of this propaganda technique is well documented.

Al Queda-Iraq, Al Queda-Iraq, Al Queda-Iraq, Al Queda-Iraq
Smoking Gun-Mushroom Cloud, Smoking Gun-Mushroom Cloud, Smoking Gun-Mushroom Cloud
WMD-Iraq, WMD-Iraq, WMD-Iraq, WMD-Iraq, WMD-Iraq

The net result was:

Fear-Iraq, Fear-Iraq, Fear-Iraq, Attack-Iraq, Attack-Iraq, Attack-Iraq

These buffoons do not abandon a successful strategy. The authoritarians long-ago abandoned the traditional American political process. Instead they embraced a modern 'win at all costs' position. That meant mud-slinging and personal attacks against your opponent. What became the current evolution of this strategy, is the attacks no longer have to be true. The 'riverboat' slander of Kerry is a perfect example.

To win back our country will take the combined effort of honest conservatives and liberals alike. We should not accept lies and 'marketing' as the way be select our representatives. I am ready to call BS whenever I see it. You might want to consider that too.

[CanadaRAM]

What do the Iraqis say as a country about wanted the US to leave. We know what they think in Bagdad but what is the overall feeling. We only hear snippets from the media.

You make the mistake of assuming that there is a single, identifiable country there, and that there is some kind of popular consensus. I submit that there is no country and no consensus either. Iraq is an artificial border around territory held by multiple groups (whose territories spill over the borders into other countries), and in recent history has only ever been held together as a 'country' by repressive military governments.

[SMM]

You make the mistake of assuming that there is a single, identifiable country there, and that there is some kind of popular consensus. I submit that there is no country and no consensus either. Iraq is an artificial border around territory held by multiple groups (whose territories spill over the borders into other countries), and in recent history has only ever been held together as a 'country' by repressive military governments.

This was one of the most single glaring oversights in our Iraq strategy. American has this self-righteous belief that we alone know what is best for the countries of the world. Iraq is an ancient civilization. Baghdad is one of the world's oldest cities. In ancient times, it was the hub of commerce for that region. Yet, we offer no appreciation of that fact, and instead treat them as a backwater, third-world country. What arrogance on our part. What lack of respect for these people.

[Iscariot]

And if he were an Iraqi, there'd be an 8.5% chance he'd be free of his home and a 2.2% chance he'd be free of his life. Maybe he meant he could thank God personally?

[solvs]

Really? We just had a cop shot in the head in a Dunkin Donuts for no reason too. I'm sure that disproves the theory that we love freedom too.
Yes, that's exactly the same as all of the innocent people being blown up in the sectarian violence our invasion led to, that our glorious leader seems to think they should be grateful for. :rolleyes:

What does freedom mean to you?
Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.

Quit being obtuse. Just once I would like to see you honestly discuss something instead of mentioning things such as "a cop got shot in the Dunkin Donuts". You think that's comparable to what is going on in Iraq? Honestly?
Of course not, but as usual, he's got nothing, so the flippant comment that has nothing to do with anything will have to do.

No. I asked a question... and what's more, to ascribe the levels of current violence and oppression within Iraq to 'random' factors is a little disingenuous.
That's about as good as you're going to get.

If the Iraqis want us gone so badly and they want the violence to stop then why don't they stand up for themselves and fight against the fundamentalist and extremists and take a stand.
They are. Kinda the problem. Besides those who fight back against our troops, they're fighting each other because they each see each other as the victim and the other side(s) as the aggressors. Of course it's indefensible, especially when innocents are caught in the crossfire, but it's not like it's "us" vs. "them". There are a lot of thems. They hate us, they hate each other. It's far more complicated than you, and the administration, are trying to make it seem.

And for the record, the number of foreign fighters is in the single digits in case anyone wants to go there.

[Iscariot]

They are. Kinda the problem. Besides those who fight back against our troops, they're fighting each other because they each see each other as the victim and the other side(s) as the aggressors. Of course it's indefensible, especially when innocents are caught in the crossfire, but it's not like it's "us" vs. "them". There are a lot of thems. They hate us, they hate each other. It's far more complicated than you, and the administration, are trying to make it seem.

And for the record, the number of foreign fighters is in the single digits in case anyone wants to go there.

It's also fairly basic strategic warfare. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend". Each of the factions has a far better chance of reaching their goals if the United States is eliminated, as the U.S. represents the most powerful threat.

[Swarmlord]

Your extremist and fundamentalist is someone else's resistance and freedom fighter. You'll notice that these "extremists" are attacking the US troops, who are the occupying force in the country. They are taking a stand, against the US, who is the aggressor.

Yeah, that's why they are blowing up mosques, fruit markets and police stations. They know that American troops are holed up there. :rolleyes:

[Peterkro]

I say, make him an Iraqi. He wouldn't be missed by 75% of the people in this country.

You don't think that Iraqi's have suffered enough already?

[IJ Reilly]

You don't think that Iraqi's have suffered enough already?

Ah, good point. It really wouldn't be fair to the Iraqis.

[solvs]

Yeah, that's why they are blowing up mosques, fruit markets and police stations. They know that American troops are holed up there. :rolleyes:
As already pointed out, they also hate each other. Again, part of the problem that we've only made worse. We attack, the terrorists attack, the targets attack, everybody attacks. Boom, quagmire. Everyone tries to justify it calling it collateral damage. Including us when we do such things, ie like with what Blackwater has been doing.