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MacRumors
Nov 8, 2007, 10:36 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Appleinsider suggests (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/11/08/freezing_imacs_may_be_victims_of_hardware_not_software.html) that the freezing iMac problem may be related to overheating hardware rather than any particular software issue.

They cite one user who had their video chipset replaced on their iMac who found that the problems had disappeared.
This and other reports provide increasing support for beliefs that the lockups and related symptoms are caused by excessive heat inside the all-in-one chassis.
While this remains speculative, it could mean that no software solution will be able to repair the issue. A similar but less publicizd issue has affected early owners ot the ATI Radeon X1900 video card for the Mac Pro. Some have noted these issues have become more prominent (http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1195969) under Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard) due to its increased dependance on the GPU.




Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/11/08/freezing-imac-issue-due-to-hardware/)



Moof1904
Nov 8, 2007, 10:39 AM
Darn. A software fix would have been so much more tidy.

VaDor
Nov 8, 2007, 10:40 AM
The lesson is the same as always!

Never buy a Apple revision A product!!

l33r0y
Nov 8, 2007, 10:41 AM
I've read from owners that freezes occur after a cold boot, so this doesn't make much sense to me that the GPU is overheating, although another type of GPU fault is likely IMO.

Wild-Bill
Nov 8, 2007, 10:44 AM
I called it weeks ago. I knew it.

Overheating ATI cards FTW. Apple chooses cost over quality. Consumers lose.

roland.g
Nov 8, 2007, 10:46 AM
My new 2.8 iMac (August) never froze, and I have been planning in upgrading to 10.5 within the next week or so, however, my iMac has started freezing in the last 10 days, about 4 or 5 times so far.

~Shard~
Nov 8, 2007, 10:47 AM
I'm all for Apple's minimalist design philosophy, but this is a good example of possibly sacrificing function for form. Yes, "thinner is better" in Apple's eyes, but at what cost? Do desktops really need to be as thin as possible? Personally, it wouldn't bother me at all if the iMac was half an inch thicker in order to better offset any overheating issues which could have adverse effects such as this.

A thin machine is great, but only if it works properly. :cool:

Superchud
Nov 8, 2007, 10:54 AM
The lesson is the same as always!

Never buy a Apple revision A product!!

I purchased the Rev A Intel iMac in January 2006 and never had a major issue with it. My only thought would be that Apple should have used the MXM format for the video subsystem in the new Intel iMacs as this would have made repairs much easier and cheaper for video related issues e.g. now. Has anyone tried using Temp Monitor to observe heating issue and compare those to the stated limits of those components from the manufacturers? Almost ever component inside the new iMacs have a thermal diode that can be measured.

ksz
Nov 8, 2007, 10:55 AM
I'm all for Apple's minimalist design philosophy, but this is a good example of possibly sacrificing function for form. Yes, "thinner is better" in Apple's eyes, but at what cost? Do desktops really need to be as thin as possible? Personally, it wouldn't bother me at all if the iMac was half an inch thicker in order to better offset any overheating issues which could have adverse effects such as this.

A thin machine is great, but only if it works properly. :cool:
If this is just a manufacturing problem like the overzealous application of thermal paste on laptop CPUs, then it's just as easily curable. I am personally quite fond of Apple's design trend and do think it adds to the product's market appeal.

Can
Nov 8, 2007, 10:55 AM
AppleInsider suggests?

This info has been on these forums for many days now. Read the iMac forum :)

mainstreetmark
Nov 8, 2007, 10:56 AM
While this remains speculative, it could mean that no software solution will be able to repair the issue. A similar but less publicizd issue has affected early owners ot the ATI Radeon X1900 video card for the Mac Pro. Some have noted these issues have become more prominent (http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1195969) under Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard) due to its increased dependance on the GPU.


Early MacBooks also had heat-related issues, though it was more of a shutdown than a freeze.

The lesson is the same as always!

Never buy a Apple revision A product!!

Never by Rev A products from any manufacturer. (if you care)

chaosbunny
Nov 8, 2007, 10:57 AM
The lesson is the same as always!

Never buy a Apple revision A product!!

Actually, the only apple products I never had a single problem with were a rev A iPod and a rev A 12" powerbook. So I thought let's give a rev A a try again. :)

But generally you are right.

jacobhb
Nov 8, 2007, 10:57 AM
I think it's hardware but I don't think it's a heat issue. Most of my freezes occur after restoring from sleep or a cold boot.

AppleMojo
Nov 8, 2007, 11:01 AM
This article isn't accurate.

I am the lucky owner of the freezing iMac's and originally thought it was heat related until it happened at almost every cold boot.

My situation was very similar to roland.g, where in my iMac started freezing several weeks after it was at home and became worse and worse as time passed.

The problem (told to me by the Apple repair rep) is related to bad video memory, and requires an entire logic board (motherboard) replacement. This does explain why, after a good 4 - 10 freezes you eventually get a good working system for several hours as long as you don't utilize anything too graphically intense.

I am scheduled to pick it up tomorrow or Saturday when they have finished.

Interestingly enough, they continue to tell you "this is the first time we've seen anything like this.", however at the same time he searches his knowledge base and magically up pops the cure for this *never seen before* problem.

But, whatcha gonna do. 30+ Macs in the last 2 years and this is the first one with hardware issues. Thats pretty good for me, I just feel sorry for all of the Mac converts who got one of the unlucky machines at first go.

~Shard~
Nov 8, 2007, 11:03 AM
If this is just a manufacturing problem like the overzealous application of thermal paste on laptop CPUs, then it's just as easily curable.

Let's hope that's the case.

I am personally quite fond of Apple's design trend and do think it adds to the product's market appeal.

I am too, but as I stated, I do not want Apple to sacrifce function for form. :cool:

ShockTroop
Nov 8, 2007, 11:04 AM
I keep reading about these freezes. Is it only happening in new aluminum iMacs?

whiteyanderson
Nov 8, 2007, 11:05 AM
i mentioned this theory in the madden '08 thread when many users were reporting system freezes. i immediately suspected an overheating issue. my sister also has a new iMac which she reports genrates massive heat sitting in front of it. lockups due to vid chip overheating makes perfect sense to me. however, the issue may not just be one of ati's cards / chips. if you have a pro tower and are having lockups regardless of what brand vid card you have in there, remove a side panel and see if it helps by getting more airflow in there. it could be a more major issue of the materials used and thickness of the computer (read:new iMac and metal laptops) or both.

Queso
Nov 8, 2007, 11:05 AM
I keep reading about these freezes. Is it only happening in new aluminum iMacs?
Apparently, although certainly not in all of them. Mine hasn't frozen once since I got it several weeks ago.

CWallace
Nov 8, 2007, 11:06 AM
While my iMac 2.4 has been fine, she does get toasty.

I used to own an hp Pavillion zd7000 laptop and those models were somewhat notorious for cooking their nVidia GoFX5700 GPUs, even running at a 100MHz core and 100MHz memory clocks.

So Apple isn't alone...

AppleMojo
Nov 8, 2007, 11:07 AM
Yes, mostly to the new Aluminum 20" and 24" iMacs. It isn't completely isolated to these iMac's since it is bad video memory and that can most certainly happen to other systems as well, just not in the same proportion or numbers.

gattotimo
Nov 8, 2007, 11:09 AM
If the problem is hardware, what will Apple do? Will they recall all the iMacs with the potentially damaged GPU and replace them with new ones?

CWallace
Nov 8, 2007, 11:10 AM
If the problem is hardware, what will Apple do? Will they recall all the iMacs with the potentially damaged GPU and replace them with new ones?

A software patch could under-clock the GPU and/or memory to reduce the heat. Won't help performance, but it will help longevity.

whiteyanderson
Nov 8, 2007, 11:10 AM
I keep reading about these freezes. Is it only happening in new aluminum iMacs?

that depends on the application. for the madden game for instance, it is happening to MBP, alum iMacs and pro towers. 75% are using ati cards, 100% have a "metal" casing.

AppleMojo
Nov 8, 2007, 11:11 AM
If the problem is hardware, what will Apple do? Will they recall all the iMacs with the potentially damaged GPU and replace them with new ones?

If you call Apple Care, and / or take the iMac into the local store for repair they act as if this is the first time they have seen the problem.

I imagine, they won't recall them, just simply fix them through the regular repair channel, which is unfortunate.

Now I am the proud owner of a Brand New Repaired 24" iMac!

boer
Nov 8, 2007, 11:11 AM
If it is just the heat it can be fixed with software. Apple could just downgrade the GPU clock a bit. One would hardly notice any difference in real life performance since the tolerable heat threshold is probably close anyway.

flopticalcube
Nov 8, 2007, 11:12 AM
It has nothing to do with heat as many have managed to lock up their iMacs within seconds of a cold boot. Its a hardware problem alright but its not heat related.

Eidorian
Nov 8, 2007, 11:12 AM
The lesson is the same as always!

Never buy a Apple revision A product!!I overclocked my iMac Core Duo for months. :p

I don't see how making this Aluminum iMac thinner helped either. :rolleyes:

We might be looking at a repair program for this.

esquire360
Nov 8, 2007, 11:12 AM
my mac pro was freezing up with the apple screensavers, but switched to aquarium by sache and it didn't lock up

twoodcc
Nov 8, 2007, 11:14 AM
well i guess i have this issue with my mac pro....:(

~Shard~
Nov 8, 2007, 11:14 AM
If it is just the heat it can be fixed with software. Apple could just downgrade the GPU clock a bit. One would hardly notice any difference in real life performance since the tolerable heat threshold is probably close anyway.

This could be a potential solution, but even though the actual deterimental effect to the end user may be negligible, the perception of Apple downgrading the performance of an already-criticized component to offset a heating issue would not be well received. :cool:

l33r0y
Nov 8, 2007, 11:16 AM
I does sound like a non-heat related GPU issue to me, particularly something that is corrupting the video memory.

psychofreak
Nov 8, 2007, 11:17 AM
The lesson is the same as always!

Never buy a Apple revision A product!!

How is this Rev A? Because it uses aluminium? I is no more Rev A than anything else new...

I think this is just like the MB Random shutdown...it is a hardware issue that Apple will eventually find a software workaround for...

~Shard~
Nov 8, 2007, 11:18 AM
I don't see how making this Aluminum iMac thinner helped either. :rolleyes:

I agree. As I said before, I'm all for Apple's minimalist design approach, however not at the cost of the machine's ability to perform properly. After all, this is a desktop machine - how thin does it really need to be? If Apple can pull it off, great, but if there are adverse effects such as this due to the smaller size, etc. then in my opinion it's not worth it.

Eidorian
Nov 8, 2007, 11:19 AM
I agree. As I said before, I'm all for Apple's minimalist design approach, however not at the cost of the machine's ability to perform properly. After all, this is a desktop machine - how thin does it really need to be? If Apple can pull it off, great, but if there are adverse effects such as this due to the smaller size, etc. then in my opinion it's not worth it.They should have kept the old design and just released colors. :D

flopticalcube
Nov 8, 2007, 11:21 AM
I don't think its a case design issue either. There is more space in their than your standard monster desktop replacement laptop and there is no battery either (although there is the PSU) and yet monster laptops don't seem to have this scale of an issue.

Wild-Bill
Nov 8, 2007, 11:21 AM
They should have gone with nVidia cards and not "underclocked" ATI parts.

longofest
Nov 8, 2007, 11:22 AM
This article isn't accurate....

The problem (told to me by the Apple repair rep) is related to bad video memory, and requires an entire logic board (motherboard) replacement. This does explain why, after a good 4 - 10 freezes you eventually get a good working system for several hours as long as you don't utilize anything too graphically intense.

An overheating chipset can definitely damage VRAM if its in the proximity of the chip. Then, you'd run into problems on cold-boot as well.

If it is just the heat it can be fixed with software. Apple could just downgrade the GPU clock a bit. One would hardly notice any difference in real life performance since the tolerable heat threshold is probably close anyway.

That is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

~Shard~
Nov 8, 2007, 11:23 AM
They should have kept the old design and just released colors. :D

Like Bondi Blue and Dalmation! :p :D

They should have gone with nVidia cards and not "underclocked" ATI parts.

I heard that there were issues with nVidia drivers as well when it comes to Macs... someone else might be able to confirm that though...

Queso
Nov 8, 2007, 11:26 AM
Like Bondi Blue and Dalmation! :p :D
Flower Power FTW!! :D

flopticalcube
Nov 8, 2007, 11:26 AM
An overheating chipset can definitely damage VRAM if its in the proximity of the chip. Then, you'd run into problems on cold-boot as well.



That is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

VRAM usually passes testing with flying colours, however. Although the tests performed by TT or Apple HT may not be thorough.

I agree. If they clock down the cards (and that can easily be discovered) it will be a bigger disaster for them.

~Shard~
Nov 8, 2007, 11:26 AM
That is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Exactly. Some people are no happy with the inclusion of the 2600 card to begin with due to its performance. If Apple went ahead and underclocked them there would be no end of complaints!

gattotimo
Nov 8, 2007, 11:26 AM
A software patch could under-clock the GPU and/or memory to reduce the heat. Won't help performance, but it will help longevity.
Doesn't seem fair to me. We bought a computer with certain specifications, why should we have a downgrade? If that's the case, we should have a partial (very partial) refund, don't you think so?

~Shard~
Nov 8, 2007, 11:27 AM
Flower Power FTW!! :D

How could I forget about that one! :eek: Oh wait, that's right, it's because I attempted to wipe it from memory... :p ;) :D

AppleMojo
Nov 8, 2007, 11:28 AM
An overheating chipset can definitely damage VRAM if its in the proximity of the chip. Then, you'd run into problems on cold-boot as well.

Oh, most definitely. I asked about this at the "Genius Bar"... I still can't say that with dignity.

... I asked about that and was told that their knowledge base didn't clearly indicate the root cause of the bad video memory, but that from what he was reading it appeared to just be faulty memory.

Bah!

TBi
Nov 8, 2007, 11:29 AM
Early MacBooks also had heat-related issues, though it was more of a shutdown than a freeze.

The Macbook issue wasn't caused by overheating. It was caused because it thought it was over heating. Basically, FWIR, the thermocouple wire was shorting out and the Macbook promptly shut down thinking it was overheating.

whiteyanderson
Nov 8, 2007, 11:31 AM
not sure how anyone could even consider it NOT to be a heat issue unless it's a denial thing. thinner build + metal casing= an obvious heat increase. open a huge pc tower, hold your finger on the vid card/ chip see how long it takes to heat. imagine how much quicker it happens in a tiny space. or how many lockups have users had on the previous white plastic (which i own) iMac? i've never had one.

AppleMojo
Nov 8, 2007, 11:31 AM
Doesn't seem fair to me. We bought a computer with certain specifications, why should we have a downgrade? If that's the case, we should have a partial (very partial) refund, don't you think so?

And there lies the lawsuit. I am already upset to own a brand new repaired machine, I would be even more upset if they downgraded my performance.

A refund would be nice at this point, but a repair was all they would offer.

whiteyanderson
Nov 8, 2007, 11:34 AM
The Macbook issue wasn't caused by overheating. It was caused because it thought it was over heating. Basically, FWIR, the thermocouple wire was shorting out and the Macbook promptly shut down thinking it was overheating.

ok i could buy that in a sense except for the fact that the macbook isn't "metal" and therefore may be an entirely different issue. i still hold to the fact that the new iMac and MBP issues are heat related though, unless of course they have the same issue and due to the build are "reporting" an overheat more often/ or quicker. which would still prove the case in a sense.

spazzcat
Nov 8, 2007, 11:34 AM
I haven't froze once since upgrading.

Jetson
Nov 8, 2007, 11:36 AM
not sure how anyone could even consider it NOT to be a heat issue unless it's a denial thing. thinner build + metal casing= an obvious heat increase. open a huge pc tower, hold your finger on the vid card/ chip see how long it takes to heat. imagine how much quicker it happens in a tiny space. or how many lockups have users had on the previous white plastic (which i own) iMac? i've never had one.
I read that the reason the new aluminum iMacs felt warm to the touch was because the metal case acted like a heat sink, therefore the internals must be cooler than they would be in the plastic case.

AppleMojo
Nov 8, 2007, 11:38 AM
not sure how anyone could even consider it NOT to be a heat issue unless it's a denial thing. thinner build + metal casing= an obvious heat increase. open a huge pc tower, hold your finger on the vid card/ chip see how long it takes to heat. imagine how much quicker it happens in a tiny space. or how many lockups have users had on the previous white plastic (which i own) iMac? i've never had one.

The white plastic to aluminum update was not the only change, so it would be rather simple minded to assume that the obvious cosmetic difference is to blame.

The chipsets are different, the memory is different and I assume that this can't be the same batch of sweat shop employed 3rd world employees that put them together in the first place. -- Oh, and don't forget global warming isn't helping the heat of my iMac either.

Again, it isn't a heat problem. They locked up on first setup / install when we got them home. They freeze from a cold boot.

roland.g
Nov 8, 2007, 11:40 AM
Apparently, although certainly not in all of them. Mine hasn't frozen once since I got it several weeks ago.

Mine didn't do it for 2 months after I got it, now I have seen it at least 4-5 times in the last week or 2.

I don't do much GPU related on it, no gaming or anything, and each time mine has done it, it is the screensaver that freezes it up. Cosmos effect. The slides just stop changing and moving and I can only hold down the power button to shut it down.

Queso
Nov 8, 2007, 11:42 AM
Mine didn't do it for 2 months after I got it, now I have seen it at least 4-5 times in the last week or 2.
Ah, thanks. I'll keep my eye on it for the moment then.

whiteyanderson
Nov 8, 2007, 11:43 AM
The white plastic to aluminum update was not the only change, so it would be rather simple minded to assume that the obvious cosmetic difference is to blame.

The chipsets are different, the memory is different and I assume that this can't be the same batch of sweat shop employed 3rd world employees that put them together in the first place. -- Oh, and don't forget global warming isn't helping the heat of my iMac either.

Again, it isn't a heat problem. They locked up on first setup / install when we got them home. They freeze from a cold boot.

actually it would be rather simple minded to not read through my entire or other posts to see that i equated the overheating not only to a possible ati card issue but, a metal casing and thiner build. the plastic to metal comparison was an EXAMPLE. cosmetics have nothing to do with it, except for that fact that as usual, it has to boil down to that here doesn't it? maybe it's the aqua scroll bars?

roland.g
Nov 8, 2007, 11:44 AM
Ah, thanks. I'll keep my eye on it for the moment then.

I was planning on backing everything up for a clean install of 10.5. Now I'll just backup and switch out my 4GB for the original 1GB RAM and call Applecare, expecting to send it in/repair/replace or take it by the Apple Store.

AppleMojo
Nov 8, 2007, 11:45 AM
Mine didn't do it for 2 months after I got it, now I have seen it at least 4-5 times in the last week or 2.

Our situation was very similar, except I had a single freeze during the initial setup and just attributed it to weirdness. I wish, oh how I wish I would have seen the future and had it exchanged.

roland.g have you taken it in for repair yet? (... Nevermind, this came in just below your post)

I had to get AppleCare over the phone to authorize the repair and that took an unfortunate 5 hours of phone support, which included the obvious "archive and install". But once I had satisfied the AppleCare rep that it was still doing it, he sent me off to the local store.

MacTheSpoon
Nov 8, 2007, 11:48 AM
If some Mac Pros are having similar problems, then I'm skeptical that it's a heat issue. Their chassis are very well ventilated.

gattotimo
Nov 8, 2007, 11:49 AM
A refund would be nice at this point, but a repair was all they would offer.
But IF the problem is the videocard itself (all of them RadeonHD2600), how can they repair it? Shouldn't they substitute it with a videocard that DOES work, indeed?
I mean, repair is a solution only if it's just some units of rotten Radeon2600 to cause the issue, but if it's all of them to be condemned to freeze? (I hope my thought is clear, damn my english :o)

flopticalcube
Nov 8, 2007, 11:52 AM
If you can get them to repair it and it no longer freezes than fine. But if its an actual flaw in the card and ALL iMacs are susceptible just some more than others due to variations in the manufacturing process and uses of the machines, then nothing short of a full scale recall will suffice. I am sure Apple knows this, at least on some level if not at the AppleCare front lines.

Yateball
Nov 8, 2007, 11:53 AM
Oh, and don't forget global warming isn't helping the heat of my iMac either.

Quite possibly the funniest thing I've read on macrumours ever... very well done.

keysersoze
Nov 8, 2007, 11:54 AM
I'm just curious, but did anyone look for bad capacitors? I know this was a problem with the ooollllddd G5 iMac, but it exhibited the same behavior. Just a question.

Goldfinger
Nov 8, 2007, 11:57 AM
Quick question: does the cursor still move with a freeze? A friend of mine has a new iMac and he's experienceing freezes with Aperture. The whole interface locks up but the cursor still moves around. (there's no disk activity either).

He never had any freezes before yesterday (when he installed Aperture).

AppleMojo
Nov 8, 2007, 11:57 AM
actually it would be rather simple minded to not read through my entire or other posts to see that i equated the overheating not only to a possible ati card issue but, a metal casing and thiner build. the plastic to metal comparison was an EXAMPLE. cosmetics have nothing to do with it, except for that fact that as usual, it has to boil down to that here doesn't it? maybe it's the aqua scroll bars?

I was basing my comments solely from your post.

not sure how anyone could even consider it NOT to be a heat issue unless it's a denial thing. thinner build + metal casing= an obvious heat increase.

It boils down to posts on topics users have no experience with.

Let me know when you've had a 24" Aluminum iMac freeze on you, spent time with AppleCare and taken it down to your local Apple Store and spoken with them.

flopticalcube
Nov 8, 2007, 11:58 AM
Quick question: does the cursor still move with a freeze? A friend of mine has a new iMac and he's experienceing freezes with Aperture. The whole interface locks up but the cursor still moves around. (there's no disk activity either).

He never had any freezes before yesterday (when he installed Aperture).

That's the freeze.

leonstafford
Nov 8, 2007, 11:58 AM
I'm running my Core 2 Duo 2Ghz without an LCD attached and it's now winter here, so I shouldn't have any heat issues. That said, I had my first freeze tonight while running VLC, Transmission, Mail, FireFox. My resolution is set to 2048 x 1536 and I've played many HD 1080p vids fine without any hiccups. I have owned several G5 iMacs which only ran when I had the aircon turned on in the room. I think the Intel machines shouldnt suffer from overheating unless the way the video cards are attached in the plant is dodgey.

gattotimo
Nov 8, 2007, 12:01 PM
If you can get them to repair it and it no longer freezes than fine. But if its an actual flaw in the card and ALL iMacs are susceptible just some more than others due to variations in the manufacturing process and uses of the machines, then nothing short of a full scale recall will suffice. I am sure Apple knows this, at least on some level if not at the AppleCare front lines.
Thanks, that's exactly the point :). If it's a flaw in the card, Apple can't just repair each iMac that feature that card, cause the issue would eventually surface again. Let's just hope they discover what is causing this mess soon.

chmarch
Nov 8, 2007, 12:08 PM
I am simply curious to all the people who have had freezing issues...how long before you started having the freezing problems did you have the iMac? I've had mine 2.5 weeks now with no freezing problems, but is it inevitable?

Luap
Nov 8, 2007, 12:09 PM
The lesson is the same as always!

Never buy a Apple revision A product!!

This is nonsense. Its not the 1st intel flat panel iMac, is it? So its no more of a rev a product than the previous gen iMac was. Just because it has a new design of case doesnt make it rev a.
The next gen alu iMacs will likely contain different hardware here n there too, like gpu etc. Whats to say that wont have teething problems also?

A software patch could under-clock the GPU and/or memory to reduce the heat. Won't help performance, but it will help longevity.

Although technically possible, they cant do this surely? As the the specs are then below what Apple advertised them as being. There would be an uproar, not to mention some legal issues..

Anyway, Macrumors have basically taken the story from AppleInsider. And AppleInsider got the story from Joe Bloggs, whos guess is as good as anyone elses. So don't take this news as fact. Especially given AppleInsiders track record of posting crap for news for 2 or more years.

flopticalcube
Nov 8, 2007, 12:09 PM
I am simply curious to all the people who have had freezing issues...how long before you started having the freezing problems did you have the iMac? I've had mine 2.5 weeks now with no freezing problems, but is it inevitable?

A week or two.

TBi
Nov 8, 2007, 12:12 PM
ok i could buy that in a sense except for the fact that the macbook isn't "metal" and therefore may be an entirely different issue.

The wire shorted against the heatsink. Also a wire can short internally too. There is a lot of metal actually inside the macbook :)

EngBrian
Nov 8, 2007, 12:17 PM
Are newly purchased Imac doing this or are freezing machines typically from the first "batch"...ie purchased back in august or september.

Luap
Nov 8, 2007, 12:17 PM
Lets not forget there is strong evidence that yet another software update is on the way. Hopefully this week?
Best to see how that pans out, rather than blaming hardware now. Infact this is partly why im surprised/disappointed MacRumors followed AppleInsider and posted this 'news' today.

flopticalcube
Nov 8, 2007, 12:18 PM
Are newly purchased Imac doing this or are freezing machines typically from the first "batch"...ie purchased back in august or september.

It appears that even newly purchased machines have this problem.

dont24
Nov 8, 2007, 12:21 PM
Apparently, although certainly not in all of them. Mine hasn't frozen once since I got it several weeks ago.

Same here. I haven't experienced any freezes with my 24".

white pilgrim
Nov 8, 2007, 12:23 PM
A friend wants to get the iMac soon, it would be her first since the bondi ones years back. Any thoughts if this freeze issue is gonna get worked out soon or eventually, or should i stop her?

EngBrian
Nov 8, 2007, 12:24 PM
It appears that even newly purchased machines have this problem.

Thanks...I guess that makes sense. If they can't fix the "old" machines they don't know what is wrong to correct for newly made machines.

l33r0y
Nov 8, 2007, 12:25 PM
Although technically possible, they cant do this surely? As the the specs are then below what Apple advertised them as being. There would be an uproar, not to mention some legal issues...

Apple only stat the graphics model number and memory, they do not advertise the speed of the GPU or VRAM is clocked at, so yes, they can make adjustments to the spec as it is within the initial (vague) spec

apple_iBoy
Nov 8, 2007, 12:27 PM
not sure how anyone could even consider it NOT to be a heat issue unless it's a denial thing. thinner build + metal casing= an obvious heat increase

Like the lady from Fargo said, I'm not sure that I agree with you 100% on your police work, there, Lou.

Heat might indeed be the problem (I have no way of knowing). However, there's no logic in saying that a plastic case would be a better computer shell than a metal one because of component overheating. Metals conduct, polymers generally insulate. A metal case would more easily transfer that heat out into the room, while a plastic case would be more apt to retain it. The heating issue you run into with a metal case is that the heat does get transferred so efficiently, right onto your lap if you're using a notebook.

Just thought I needed to throw in my $0.02 of basic materials science.

Vulpinemac
Nov 8, 2007, 12:32 PM
I called it weeks ago. I knew it.

Overheating ATI cards FTW. Apple chooses cost over quality. Consumers lose.

I don't agree with the statement that it is heat related. I have monitors on my CPU and GPU that shows my operating temperature staying well below the recommended maximums, yet before I upgraded to Leopard I would get random hangs; not just graphical, but audio and processing hangs as well. Since Leopard I have not--yet--had a single hang.

If anyone is having overheating issues, try getting some airflow around the computer. Get that clutter out from underneath the machine and pull it a couple inches away from the wall. Then buy Leopard or wait for the next Tiger update to see if your problems don't go away.

flyinmac
Nov 8, 2007, 12:37 PM
Yep, I posted just such a speculation back in early October.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=4310458&#post4310458

Now lets see if Apple fixes it, or if they just ignore current users and limp them past their warranty like they did with the G5 systems.

Vulpinemac
Nov 8, 2007, 12:37 PM
I disagree with this analysis. While it may be possible that some GPUs are weak and sensitive to thermal runaway, this doesn't explain why machines hang after cold boots or when indicated temperatures are well below rated maximums. In most cases, a simple decluttering of your desk and moving the computer away from the wall should be all you need to do to reduce higher temperatures (unless, of course, it's sitting just above a heating vent.)

On the other hand, the issue of screen freezes I had in my iMac Extreme (24" 2.8Ghz) went away when I upgraded to Leopard out of Tiger. I expect that an upcoming Tiger update will include whatever fixed my issue.

RevToTheRedline
Nov 8, 2007, 12:50 PM
The lesson is the same as always!

Never buy a Apple revision A product!!

And why is that? Cause my iMac has never crashed or frozen once, don't assume what you hear is the whole story, not everyone is effected. Today it's 2 months old, and I couldn't be happier with my purchase. Just got Leopard yesterday, I'm so happy with it.


Same here. I haven't experienced any freezes with my 24".
Again case in point, not everyone is having this problem.

RichardI
Nov 8, 2007, 12:59 PM
I will follow this issue with interest. This is my first ever Mac hardware and how apple supports it is going to decide if it's the last. My iMac doesn't freeze - at least not yet. It definitely could be a heat issue, even for those whose iMacs are freezing on a cold start. The damage could have been done originally during a longer session when heat was an issue. My interest will be in how Apple handles it if it turns out to be a heat issue.

Rich :cool:

RevToTheRedline
Nov 8, 2007, 01:05 PM
I will follow this issue with interest. This is my first ever Mac hardware and how apple supports it is going to decide if it's the last. My iMac doesn't freeze - at least not yet. It definitely could be a heat issue, even for those whose iMacs are freezing on a cold start. The damage could have been done originally during a longer session when heat was an issue. My interest will be in how Apple handles it if it turns out to be a heat issue.

Rich :cool:

The smart thing to do is run smcFanControl 2.0 until Apple issues a fan firmware update. I've built a lot of computers in my day and I know that stock for stock the iMac fans spin way too slow. Bump them up from 700/1200/1200rpm to 1500/2500/2000 it's still really quiet. The components don't get nearly as hot. I run 2600/3340/2300 during gaming and encoding. Heat could have been an issue, but I've been running SMC since the week I bought the new iMac, so it's possible I haven't fried my components like some people might have by running stock fan speeds.

And maybe this explains why I can go 6 hours on end gaming without an issue, 10 hours of video encoding without an issue and so on for the last 2 months.

pdxplm
Nov 8, 2007, 01:07 PM
I guess I'm lucky, got one of the early Sept Alu 24" 2.8's. Not an issue ever with it freezing! After leopard though, I have noticed more problems with Safari than anything else.

Apple has me in their hooks, going to get a new Macbook Pro or Macbook next release and of course an Iphone soon....:apple:

Icarus73
Nov 8, 2007, 01:08 PM
i'd certainly be pissed if i bought a powermac that froze on me. ha! I plan to get an imac, but i may wait til the next-gen. hopefully next spring? i dont need it til June 2008 when I'm off to post-secondary, but I'm excited to see what comes out on the next iMac aside from the freezing fix.

darthraige
Nov 8, 2007, 01:10 PM
Some have noted these issues have become more prominent under Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard) due to its increased dependance on the GPU (X1900XT).

More the reason to update the MacPro and GPUs for November 13th. :D

flyinmac
Nov 8, 2007, 01:15 PM
Some have noted these issues have become more prominent under Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard) due to its increased dependance on the GPU (X1900XT).

More the reason to update the MacPro and GPUs for November 13th. :D

Actually, it just makes me glad I saved some money and went with the nVidia card that it comes with.

I'd be pretty upset if I had paid to upgrade to a more expensive card that caused all this trouble.

MattyP30
Nov 8, 2007, 01:20 PM
20" 2.4GhZ and no freezes as yet!! had it for about a week now!! running cod2 and numerous apps seems fine - although the temperature that is reported for the PSU is 70oC is this normal? the GPU and CPU never seem to go above 50!

Wild-Bill
Nov 8, 2007, 01:21 PM
You knew nothing.

Um, actually I did. When scores of people were denying up and down that it could be a hardware issue and insisted it was software related, I stated I believed it to be a hardware issue, and I was right.

RevToTheRedline
Nov 8, 2007, 01:23 PM
i'd certainly be pissed if i bought a powermac that froze on me. ha! I plan to get an imac, but i may wait til the next-gen. hopefully next spring? i dont need it til June 2008 when I'm off to post-secondary, but I'm excited to see what comes out on the next iMac aside from the freezing fix.

This is exactly the kind of stuff internet media wants you to do, scare you in to buying something because the hype. Do as you must. It's only your loss.

rhpenguin
Nov 8, 2007, 01:26 PM
The lesson is the same as always!

Never buy a Apple revision A product!!

Never buy any Apple product if your concerned about quality. Every Apple machine I've owned (with the exception of my DA PowerMac) has died several times due to faulty hardware, specifically logicboards. Their OS on the other hand is gold.

tribulation
Nov 8, 2007, 01:28 PM
Some have noted these issues have become more prominent under Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard) due to its increased dependance on the GPU (X1900XT).

VERY PROMINENT!! i'd call it more like UNUSABLE
mac pro & x1900 is messed up on leopard big time
part of my MEGABUGS post yesterday. 6 of my friends and me have the mac pros with x1900 and since upgrading to leopard see lines and junk drawn all over the screen that was never there in tiger
another :apple: rush job.like i said before this bug comes up on 7/7 mac pros with the :apple: included radeon x1900 so i find it hard to believe that :apple: didnt notice this megabug before releasing it to us and making us pay for a broken system
and like i said before a new os is bound to have some bugs but the huge ones in leopard that make it unusable for many people with such glaring bugs there is no excuse

flyinmac
Nov 8, 2007, 01:29 PM
This is exactly the kind of stuff internet media wants you to do, scare you in to buying something because the hype. Do as you must. It's only your loss.

Or, you can listen to other's problems, and save yourself the hassle. I wish I had done as much with the last two iMac's I had.

Instead, I passed it off as the bad luck of a few, and I ended-up with every problem that you could imagine with them. I spent so much time with them in the shop, that after six months of ownership, I only had a couple weeks of actual usage on them.

Cromulent
Nov 8, 2007, 01:30 PM
Like the lady from Fargo said, I'm not sure that I agree with you 100% on your police work, there, Lou.

Heat might indeed be the problem (I have no way of knowing). However, there's no logic in saying that a plastic case would be a better computer shell than a metal one because of component overheating. Metals conduct, polymers generally insulate. A metal case would more easily transfer that heat out into the room, while a plastic case would be more apt to retain it. The heating issue you run into with a metal case is that the heat does get transferred so efficiently, right onto your lap if you're using a notebook.

Just thought I needed to throw in my $0.02 of basic materials science.

Exactly. That is why heatsinks are made out of metal. Because they conduct the heat away from the source and disperse it over a larger surface area thus speeding cooling.

rhpenguin
Nov 8, 2007, 01:33 PM
I heard that there were issues with nVidia drivers as well when it comes to Macs... someone else might be able to confirm that though...

Been working fine for me with both my 7600GT and 8800GTX. No crashes, no panics.

rhpenguin
Nov 8, 2007, 01:40 PM
Thanks, that's exactly the point :). If it's a flaw in the card, Apple can't just repair each iMac that feature that card, cause the issue would eventually surface again. Let's just hope they discover what is causing this mess soon.

They did it with the iBook. I would not put it passed them. Look at it like this, they already have your money.

Haoshiro
Nov 8, 2007, 01:44 PM
This isn't overheating, but it is video card related.

I've been troubleshooting this on my machine, and the machines do not actually hard-lock in most cases.

What happens is that the VIDEO locks up, the machine itself is actually still running fine. This is true in both Boot Camp and OSX.

I'm suspecting faulty memory in the GPU itself, which is corrupting and freezing the video output.

IJ Reilly
Nov 8, 2007, 01:49 PM
Just to throw another log on the fire, so to speak: just today our 20" iMac displayed random video garbage in every window. The Mac did not crash or freeze. I was able to save and shut down in an orderly fashion (flying blind, essentially) and restart. Now everything is back to normal. First instance of this issue in two month of daily use.

Hardware, software or firmware, it looks like a GPU issue.

bluenose
Nov 8, 2007, 01:53 PM
Some comments for the initiated:

Electronic components have very little thermal mass, and without firmly attached heat sink using thermal paste/pad can heat very quickly. For example, I have designed a circuit presently sold in serial product where a power op-amp (LM1875) normally operates at 80 degrees Celsius when connected to a modest stamped aluminum heat sink, but without heat sink reaches 170 degrees Celsius and shuts down around 10 seconds after powerup.

Often an external temperature sensor is mounted to the heat sink along-side the component of interest. However, if the component is not firmly mounted to the heat sink, the sensor measures a low temperature while the actual component temperature might be very much higher. In this case, software has difficulty reacting because the true high temperature is unknown. Also, upon powerup, errors in temperature measurements would be especially wrong. Some processors have internal temperature measurement, but thermal gradients might also exist within for rapidly changing temperatures, and where lowpass filtering of temperature is used.

Aluminum is expensive--more expensive than steel and plastic. Aluminum has higher thermal conductivity than either steel or plastic. When aluminum is used in electronics it is usually for heatsinking (drawing heat away from hot components). I strongly suspect Apple chose an aluminum chassis to dissipate internal heat around the external shell and into the air without using excessive noisy fans. If the iMac exterior is getting hot, it means heat from internal components is reaching the casing and the thermal management scheme is working.

Heat sinks must be attached firmly with very flat smooth surfaces using thermal paste or heat pad. Consistently attaching a large aluminum chassis to draw heat from internal components sounds difficult, and therefore could be the root of the lockup problem.

A heated component can have different timing or other characteristics. If a circuit design is pushing component specifications for maximum performance (or by design lapse), temperature changes might bring out faults. All parts are specified with tolerances on specifications so one part might fail to operate in a situation where another has no problem. Specifications may drift over time.

(Irregardless of temperature, Apple could simply be pushing hardware specifications too close, or ATI publishing wrong/misleading specs).

Apple could conceivably release an upgrade that counts lockups and throttles back performance until lockups cease.

jrabata
Nov 8, 2007, 02:01 PM
I am also suffering from a freezing 20" alu iMac (bought it on 28th Aug).

What is very interesting is that if I do not upgrade the video driver (skip the iMac Software Upgrade x.x.x upgrades in Software Upgrade after a clean Archive and Install) OS X does not freeze during normal use. World of Warcraft was also working fine till the last WoW patch which crippled the graphics and now everything is static in the game.

I think something fishy was brough in starting from iMac Software Update 1.1 (and later). Since Leopard uses the latest video drivers I assume they use something similar to the latest Tiger drivers, hence the freezes from day one.

The worst thing is that I don't know what to think: is it a software issue or hardware problem? I just desperately want to get it fixed...

Mysticneonglow
Nov 8, 2007, 02:02 PM
that depends on the application. for the madden game for instance, it is happening to MBP, alum iMacs and pro towers. 75% are using ati cards, 100% have a "metal" casing.

I switched out my NVIDIA in my G5 for an ATI card about a year ago and I just started getting this freezing issue no earlier than 2 months ago. I can't say I have been doing anything graphically intense on it recently. Glad nothings happened to my MBP yet :rolleyes:

ShockTroop
Nov 8, 2007, 02:05 PM
that depends on the application. for the madden game for instance, it is happening to MBP, alum iMacs and pro towers. 75% are using ati cards, 100% have a "metal" casing.

All of the games I play are run through bootcamp. Has anyone had freezes under bootcamp?

mavis
Nov 8, 2007, 02:20 PM
I called this more than a month ago,

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=4274049&postcount=6

and I even recommended that people use smcfancontrol2 to bump their minimum RPM's to avoid freezing

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=364088

but I never heard back from anyone as to whether or not this simple suggestion helped ... :rolleyes:

Maybe it's just coincidence, but I've never had any freezing of any kind on my iMac, and I've been running SMCFanControl2 since day one. Nothing fancy with the speeds (1200/1800/1500) but boosting the idle speeds doesn't have to mean aggressive timings - any little bit helps.

zorinlynx
Nov 8, 2007, 02:35 PM
I called this more than a month ago,

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=4274049&postcount=6

and I even recommended that people use smcfancontrol2 to bump their minimum RPM's to avoid freezing

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=364088

but I never heard back from anyone as to whether or not this simple suggestion helped ... :rolleyes:

Maybe it's just coincidence, but I've never had any freezing of any kind on my iMac, and I've been running SMCFanControl2 since day one. Nothing fancy with the speeds (1200/1800/1500) but boosting the idle speeds doesn't have to mean aggressive timings - any little bit helps.

I've wondered why Apple is so conservative with fan speeds. On both of my Macs (Mac Pro, Macbook Pro) I use SMCFan Control to run my fans 500RPM faster than default. Why? The machines just FEEL like they're running to hot at the defaults. A mere 500RPM faster and they stay MUCH cooler, and I imagine they'll last much longer.

Is Apple so obsessed with making their computers silent that they'll sacrafice reliability to do so? That seems short-righted. And afterall, they're STILL extremely silent even 500RPM above baseline.

BenRoethig
Nov 8, 2007, 02:37 PM
I called it weeks ago. I knew it.

Overheating ATI cards FTW. Apple chooses cost over quality. Consumers lose.

ATI designed these cards for a tower case with plenty of airflow, not the cramped laptop like confines of an iMac.

avkills
Nov 8, 2007, 02:39 PM
ATI could not cool an ice cube; the pathetic cooling system on my x800 failed about a year ago. The stupid heat sink is actually held on the boards by solder.. yes SOLDER! Lets see, we need to cool something that gets insanely hot, so lets attach it by something that turns to liquid under heat. Brilliant plan.

-mark

Luap
Nov 8, 2007, 02:40 PM
"I called this ages ago"

:rolleyes:

With all due respect, those folks that said this are not proven to be right at all. Again, AppleInsider is known for posting crap. And this article could likely be no different. Especially as it appears to be a user submitted story.
Im not saying it isn't a hardware issue, but without proof, its still too early to say "I knew it all along! I was so right". Especially as there is known to be another software update on the way which may resolve the issue.

And... Although SMCfancontrol is potentially useful, and does work, in as much as it does drop system temps significantly. It makes no difference to how often these iMacs freeze. None, not even a bit. Zilch, nada.
I've spent many an hour testing it on 2 different freezing iMacs now.

Leopard is another interesting thing with these freezing iMacs.. There are quite a few folks that say it made the freezing problems worse for them. But for my iMac it improved things substantially. Its not perfect, granted, but for whatever reason, it is definitely a lot better.

FakeWozniak
Nov 8, 2007, 02:48 PM
Tiger worked great for 2 weeks before I installed Leopard on my new iMac and older iBook G4. I used to leave both on all the time and never had any issues before the upgrade.

Now with Leopard, the iMac locks up randomly, but usually on boot. I leave it off now so I don't corrupt my drive, while waiting for an upgrade from Apple. Even booting when the iMac has been off for a day, it still locks up. I believe it is totally software.

With the latest iMac update, I now see glitches on the account pictures when logging in, and the dock and bouncing applications are all grainy if even there. Sometimes moving windows around will leave trails of grit. I am 100% sure it is a graphics problem. Just not ready to downgrade the ATI drivers to the Tiger version yet.

I have an iBook G4 which is also seeing video card flakiness with Leopard. It has the ATI Mobility Radeon 9200 chipset and has the same graphic problems as the iMac. Seems related to Quartz Extreme functionality.

The problem with downgrading to Tiger is that my mailbox, iPhoto library, et. al., have been converted and I doubt I can downgrade those. :confused:

atl27426
Nov 8, 2007, 02:53 PM
I am also suffering from a freezing 20" alu iMac (bought it on 28th Aug).

What is very interesting is that if I do not upgrade the video driver (skip the iMac Software Upgrade x.x.x upgrades in Software Upgrade after a clean Archive and Install) OS X does not freeze during normal use. World of Warcraft was also working fine till the last WoW patch which crippled the graphics and now everything is static in the game.

I think something fishy was brough in starting from iMac Software Update 1.1 (and later). Since Leopard uses the latest video drivers I assume they use something similar to the latest Tiger drivers, hence the freezes from day one.

The worst thing is that I don't know what to think: is it a software issue or hardware problem? I just desperately want to get it fixed...


Same issue with me. Bought my iMac on Aug 9th, never had a problem until they started to release firmware "fixes". Two days ago did an Archive and Install, did not download 1.1 or 1.2, couldn't anyways Apple removed them because they are clearly bad.

No problems or freeze issues with my current firmware which is .

EFI Driver Version: 01.00.207

Appears to me users with EFI Driver Version xx.xx.212 are the ones having most of the issues. I have yet to see anyone report problems using 207.

Based only on my own experience with this issue and the fact 1.2 just made things worse tells me this is firmware related.

Also has anyone noticed that when you boot into Windows and go into device managers your imac video card shows as a 2600xt not a 2600pro. If that doesn't scream driver issue I don't know what does.

LogicalVue
Nov 8, 2007, 02:56 PM
Someone above asked a good question, I think: "Has anyone seen this freezing problem in BootCamp"?

After all, if it is a hardware problem it should occur in Windows as well. If it's not happening in Windows then we should assume that a future Apple Software Update should be able to fix this.

I don't have one of these iMacs, but a friend of mine does and he has seen it freeze. I only buy refurbished stuff from Apple, for precisely these reasons (and to save a bit of $$$).

Stridder44
Nov 8, 2007, 03:04 PM
Early MacBooks also had heat-related issues, though it was more of a shutdown than a freeze.

Never by Rev A products from any manufacturer. (if you care)


Couldn't agree more. Doesn't surprise me that an ATI card is overheating either. I've had similar problems with Windows boxes too.

chuckyboy81070
Nov 8, 2007, 03:15 PM
Someone above asked a good question, I think: "Has anyone seen this freezing problem in BootCamp"?

After all, if it is a hardware problem it should occur in Windows as well. If it's not happening in Windows then we should assume that a future Apple Software Update should be able to fix this.

i've had freezes in bootcamp as well as in leopard. for example, sometimes in windows picture screensaver, it will freeze. the "freeze" is slightly different in that the screen will flash to black and look to be completely "lightless" as apposed to in os x when it freezes to black and you can still see a faint light emanating from the screen. also, pressing the power button in windows during a freeze invokes an orderly shutdown.

DMann
Nov 8, 2007, 03:21 PM
While my iMac 2.4 has been fine, she does get toasty.

I used to own an hp Pavillion zd7000 laptop and those models were somewhat notorious for cooking their nVidia GoFX5700 GPUs, even running at a 100MHz core and 100MHz memory clocks.

So Apple isn't alone...

Running iStat pro, (Widget) what temperature is the CPU and GPU diode running at? Normal would be approx 100º CPU and slightly higher for GPU diode.

DMann
Nov 8, 2007, 03:25 PM
I switched out my NVIDIA in my G5 for an ATI card about a year ago and I just started getting this freezing issue no earlier than 2 months ago. I can't say I have been doing anything graphically intense on it recently. Glad nothings happened to my MBP yet :rolleyes:

More affirmation for ATI being the main cause.

KurtangleTN
Nov 8, 2007, 03:26 PM
You know this issue wouldn't be such a big deal if Apple had as much choice as say, Dell or any other PC maker. It would simply be one model, but instead it's 1/5 models.

Apple's lack of choice and narrow minded view of simplicity when it comes to buying really pisses me off. You're either a pro that can drop about 3 grand on a tower, or a consumer that doesn't care about expandability and needs a glorified laptop as a desktop.

Apple, crappy hardware prices, choice, great software.

glennyboiwpg
Nov 8, 2007, 03:26 PM
The lesson is the same as always!

Never buy a Apple revision A product!!

Too True! As soon as the alum imac came out I went out and bought a sweet 24 inch White imac demo unit.


Best thing I ever did... although i have to sink some more ram into that puppy.

Cheffy Dave
Nov 8, 2007, 03:29 PM
Oh, most definitely. I asked about this at the "Genius Bar"... I still can't say that with dignity.

... I asked about that and was told that their knowledge base didn't clearly indicate the root cause of the bad video memory, but that from what he was reading it appeared to just be faulty memory.

Bah!

My last trip to the Apple Store at the International Mall in Tampa drew blank stares from 5 black shirts (salepeople not Geniuses) that I queried:( One acted totally surprised when I found a link to the problem on Apples Support site)
As a PC guy wanting IN, this doesn't bode well, the fact that I know more than the sales force,(If indeed this is the case:rolleyes:), and I know only what I read here. In fact, when I had this site up, in an attempt to find a link to the problem. a black shirt bumped me out of the way and took Macrumors down. That action alone spoke volumes.:o

DMann
Nov 8, 2007, 03:30 PM
You know this issue wouldn't be such a big deal if Apple had as much choice as say, Dell or any other PC maker. It would simply be one model, but instead it's 1/5 models.

Apple's lack of choice and narrow minded view of simplicity when it comes to buying really pisses me off. You're either a pro that can drop about 3 grand on a tower, or a consumer that doesn't care about expandability and needs a glorified laptop as a desktop.

Apple, crappy hardware prices, choice, great software.

Perhaps true, but considering that one CAN upgrade the graphics card as well as swap the CPU, (Apple could have had these soldered in) not all venues of expandability are shut off.

Mindflux
Nov 8, 2007, 03:33 PM
Perhaps true, but considering that one CAN upgrade the graphics card as well as swap the CPU, (Apple could have had these soldered in) not all venues of expandability are shut off.

For how little spec about the MXM card slot is given the incompatibilities are endless, not to mention the sheer lack of MXM video cards or support for them in OS X.

flopticalcube
Nov 8, 2007, 03:33 PM
All of the games I play are run through bootcamp. Has anyone had freezes under bootcamp?

Yes. I have had freezing running CS:S and Gary's Mod under Bootcamp.

Mindflux
Nov 8, 2007, 03:34 PM
ATI designed these cards for a tower case with plenty of airflow, not the cramped laptop like confines of an iMac.


I guess you missed the part about these being the HD 2600 Radeon Mobility. I'll give you one guess to figure out what they intended this chip to go in. Cmon, you can do it.

overcast
Nov 8, 2007, 03:39 PM
I've read from owners that freezes occur after a cold boot, so this doesn't make much sense to me that the GPU is overheating, although another type of GPU fault is likely IMO.
How long do you think it takes for a GPU/CPU to heat up after a "cold" boot.

awalla
Nov 8, 2007, 03:40 PM
But, whatcha gonna do. 30+ Macs in the last 2 years and this is the first one with hardware issues. Thats pretty good for me, I just feel sorry for all of the Mac converts who got one of the unlucky machines at first go.

I'm a recent switcher and this is driving me insane. I NEVER had this many problems with a Windows machine in the past 10 years. After 2 calls to Applecare, Apple won't acknowledge the problem because I can't recreate it on the phone. I think having to send in my brand new machine for repair is unacceptable. I'd be more than willing to swap out my 24" machine at the local Apple store with a working unit.

Cheffy Dave
Nov 8, 2007, 03:43 PM
I disagree with this analysis. While it may be possible that some GPUs are weak and sensitive to thermal runaway, this doesn't explain why machines hang after cold boots or when indicated temperatures are well below rated maximums. In most cases, a simple decluttering of your desk and moving the computer away from the wall should be all you need to do to reduce higher temperatures (unless, of course, it's sitting just above a heating vent.)

On the other hand, the issue of screen freezes I had in my iMac Extreme (24" 2.8Ghz) went away when I upgraded to Leopard out of Tiger. I expect that an upcoming Tiger update will include whatever fixed my issue.

Unless through constant overheating, some damage has been done, thus exhibiting the problem continually, even during cold boots. I had a similiar problem in a small form factor PC I owned, with an ATI card. In spite of an an additional Zalman cooler, the problem never went away until I replaced the Video card with a EVGA 320-P2-N815-AR GeForce 8800GTS . Just my FYI;)

Like the lady from Fargo said, I'm not sure that I agree with you 100% on your police work, there, Lou.

Heat might indeed be the problem (I have no way of knowing). However, there's no logic in saying that a plastic case would be a better computer shell than a metal one because of component overheating. Metals conduct, polymers generally insulate. A metal case would more easily transfer that heat out into the room, while a plastic case would be more apt to retain it. The heating issue you run into with a metal case is that the heat does get transferred so efficiently, right onto your lap if you're using a notebook.

Just thought I needed to throw in my $0.02 of basic materials science.

More 2 cents worth a Five spot

The smart thing to do is run smcFanControl 2.0 until Apple issues a fan firmware update. I've built a lot of computers in my day and I know that stock for stock the iMac fans spin way too slow. Bump them up from 700/1200/1200rpm to 1500/2500/2000 it's still really quiet. The components don't get nearly as hot. I run 2600/3340/2300 during gaming and encoding. Heat could have been an issue, but I've been running SMC since the week I bought the new iMac, so it's possible I haven't fried my components like some people might have by running stock fan speeds.

And maybe this explains why I can go 6 hours on end gaming without an issue, 10 hours of video encoding without an issue and so on for the last 2 months.

By jove, the lad might have something here, anybody else try using SMC?:confused:

Mindflux
Nov 8, 2007, 03:46 PM
I'm a recent switcher and this is driving me insane. I NEVER had this many problems with a Windows machine in the past 10 years. After 2 calls to Applecare, Apple won't acknowledge the problem because I can't recreate it on the phone. I think having to send in my brand new machine for repair is unacceptable. I'd be more than willing to swap out my 24" machine at the local Apple store with a working unit.

You can't re-create it on the phone?

You: Yeah my iMac locks up (etcetc )
Apple: Lets see if we can re-create it
You: yeah I just move my cursor around over the dock and open iPhoto and hold my tongue out right.
Apple: ok, do that
You: OH MAN IT LOCKED UP (did it? Do they know? are they spying on you through your camera?)
Apple: please take to xyz.
You: (Thinking to self) damn it was that easy?

Mindflux
Nov 8, 2007, 03:46 PM
By jove, the lad might have something here, anybody else try using SMC?:confused:


Yep, lots of users running SMC with no luck. I, fortunately have not had a lockup yet.. so no need to crank my fans.

pavelbure
Nov 8, 2007, 03:47 PM
"I called this ages ago"

:rolleyes:

With all due respect, those folks that said this are not proven to be right at all. Again, AppleInsider is known for posting crap. And this article could likely be no different. Especially as it appears to be a user submitted story.


agreed, like what has been said before, my imac froze 100% of the time coming out of sleep mode. when it was cold.

my video card was just replaced today, i ran leopard on it for about 5 min. and didn't freeze using the usual programs. i will play with it more this weekend.

flopticalcube
Nov 8, 2007, 03:48 PM
I'm a recent switcher and this is driving me insane. I NEVER had this many problems with a Windows machine in the past 10 years. After 2 calls to Applecare, Apple won't acknowledge the problem because I can't recreate it on the phone. I think having to send in my brand new machine for repair is unacceptable. I'd be more than willing to swap out my 24" machine at the local Apple store with a working unit.

This is what I did. The next time it locks up under OSX, press the power button twice then wait. The machine will take a minute or two to go to sleep. Wait another minute then press the power button again and the machine will wake up and kernel panic. Reboot the machine according to the instructions on the screen. After the machine reboots a little box will pop up telling you that your machine rebooted because of a problem and do you want to report it to Apple. Choose report and fill in the details in the various panes as best you can. Then call Apple and they will be able to see the kernel panic report. That usually shuts them up.

*GG*
Nov 8, 2007, 03:49 PM
I have said to many people now - if you are thinking of buying an iMac - forget it. This is my first and it is the most unreliable computer I have ever bought. Applecare say they can't do anything. They won't take the machine back, and the whole experience is simply frustrating.

I did keep hoping that some kind of software update would solve the problem - but this news today has really brought me right down.

Cheffy Dave
Nov 8, 2007, 03:55 PM
ATI could not cool an ice cube; the pathetic cooling system on my x800 failed about a year ago. The stupid heat sink is actually held on the boards by solder.. yes SOLDER! Lets see, we need to cool something that gets insanely hot, so lets attach it by something that turns to liquid under heat. Brilliant plan.

-mark

I had ATI problems with the same card, but there is no PC that gets hot enough to liquify solder without bursting into flames:rolleyes:

TheRuggedLion
Nov 8, 2007, 03:56 PM
If its a hardware issue, how come I can load into Windows XP and game for a few hours without a single freeze?

Cheffy Dave
Nov 8, 2007, 04:01 PM
Too True! As soon as the alum imac came out I went out and bought a sweet 24 inch White imac demo unit.


Best thing I ever did... although i have to sink some more ram into that puppy.

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMm, they have a nice one at Smalldog.com for $1495;)

mrobison
Nov 8, 2007, 04:02 PM
Just throwing this out there, but I bought a 24" 2.4 about the thursday after launch and got it about August 15. I almost always leave the computer on (sleeps all the time) and have only rebooted for software updates. I run the iStat widget to monitor stuff, and I have never seen the GPU higher than about 105 or so, but the Airport card always hovers at about 125, so I don't think it's heat. I've never had it freeze, nor had any problems except for a single dead pixel in the bottom left corner that I've noticed maybe half a dozen times. I've done a fair bit of video work in iMovie, a little Doom 3, and have had no problems at all...

Am I just lucky?

l33r0y
Nov 8, 2007, 04:04 PM
Just throwing this out there, but I bought a 24" 2.4 about the thursday after launch and got it about August 15. I almost always leave the computer on (sleeps all the time) and have only rebooted for software updates. I run the iStat widget to monitor stuff, and I have never seen the GPU higher than about 105 or so, but the Airport card always hovers at about 125, so I don't think it's heat. I've never had it freeze, nor had any problems except for a single dead pixel in the bottom left corner that I've noticed maybe half a dozen times. I've done a fair bit of video work in iMovie, a little Doom 3, and have had no problems at all...

Am I just lucky?

I guess so.... so far anyway.

Othe users are reporting they have had no issues from the start but are getting freezes recently.

Are you using Tiger or Leopard?

Whoshnot
Nov 8, 2007, 04:18 PM
Just throwing this out there, but I bought a 24" 2.4 about the thursday after launch and got it about August 15. I almost always leave the computer on (sleeps all the time) and have only rebooted for software updates. I run the iStat widget to monitor stuff, and I have never seen the GPU higher than about 105 or so, but the Airport card always hovers at about 125, so I don't think it's heat. I've never had it freeze, nor had any problems except for a single dead pixel in the bottom left corner that I've noticed maybe half a dozen times. I've done a fair bit of video work in iMovie, a little Doom 3, and have had no problems at all...

Am I just lucky?
No, you are not alone. I bought an iMac last month ... it has not frozen a single time with 10.4 and also not with 10.5 now, although I have been playing some games lately. All the sensor temperatures are rather low IMHO, certainly compared to my old iMac G5.

It could be that only a small percentage of iMacs is affected. But that would still be a huge number of macs if you consider how many of these Apple sells... which explains such a total number of freezes after all.

ascender
Nov 8, 2007, 04:27 PM
How can it be heat related when many people suffer the problems from a cold boot?

gwangung
Nov 8, 2007, 04:40 PM
Given all the info given out (happens after a cold boot! Never happens in Boot Camp! It helps to keep the fan on!It happens after I upgrade to Leopard! It did it before Leopard!), I suspect Apple is getting driven crazy trying to pin this down. :confused:

Not to excuse the problems, but I'm not wondering why Apple is keeping mum on this problem (particularly if it turns out to be 2 or 3 problems instead....)

mrobison
Nov 8, 2007, 04:43 PM
I guess so.... so far anyway.

Othe users are reporting they have had no issues from the start but are getting freezes recently.

Are you using Tiger or Leopard?

I'm currently using Tiger, but was about to update Leopard. I decided not to until some more of this is resolved and they come out with 10.5.1 at least.

Update too- I played Doom 3 for about half an hour and checked the temp again; its now at about 130ish, but still not ridiculously high...

Marble
Nov 8, 2007, 04:50 PM
I don't see how this can be a heat issue. I can be using my computer dandy as a dog for hours or just for seconds and then it'll freeze when I do something specific, like run my mouse over the dock. You think the GPU is accelerating from normal to extreme temperatures in the fraction of a second it takes to roll over the dock?

FakeWozniak
Nov 8, 2007, 05:09 PM
Through the various crashes, I have noticed that sometimes the wireless keyboard and wireless mouse still "seem" to work. Sometimes the cursor moves on the screen with the mouse movements, but clicking doesn't work and neither does the button help. Also the caps lock LED will sometimes toggle. I know from prior programming experience that the cursor is drawn at vertical retrace interrupt, so I known both the VR, USB, HID, and bluetooth device drivers are running. My keyboard is the pre-aluminum Wireless keyboard.

I wonder if the network would allow SSH connections. Anyone try? Does ping work when it is locked up? I will try this and report back.

Anyways, before I learned others had the same problem as me, I just thought the problem with the mouse and keyboard were bluetooth related because of weak batteries, or other bluetooth devices in the house (PS3, other macs with BT keyboards and mighty mice). I do recall I got relief when unplugging them.

Is it common for other people getting the freezing to be using bluetooth?

I have my 802.11 shut off, so I don't think that is interfering. I will go back to wired keyboard/mouse and report back.

Oh, one more thought. I have been using Parallels 2.5 (latest build) and wonder if that installed any kernel stuff that might be hurting me. I saw on their website they are aware that Parallels Desktop 3.0 and 2.5 have Leopard problems and only 3.0 has a patch (I think).

Other than Parallels, I only really run iLife 08 and Office 2004.

My printer is a Canon MP830 directly connected.

robby818
Nov 8, 2007, 05:12 PM
Has this been an issue for anyone using their iMacs to run Windows in bootcamp?

I run XP on a 24" Al iMac, leave it on most of the time (not in standby because it doesn't work right) and have not had any freezing issues in the month that I've owned it. The iMac runs pretty cool most of the time (placing a hand on the back and top). Seems that the backlighting for the screen generates the most heat.

flopticalcube
Nov 8, 2007, 05:12 PM
I wonder if the network would allow SSH connections. Anyone try? Does ping work when it is locked up? I will try this and report back.


People have successfully ssh'd into their frozen iMacs and performed clean shutdowns. Furthermore, you can usually get it to go to sleep (using the power button) and it will then kernel panic when you wake it up.

Has this been an issue for anyone using their iMacs to run Windows in bootcamp?

I run XP on a 24" Al iMac, leave it on most of the time (not in standby because it doesn't work right) and have not had any freezing issues in the month that I've owned it. The iMac runs pretty cool most of the time (placing a hand on the back and top). Seems that the backlighting for the screen generates the most heat.

Yes. I have had it hang in XP. Not as often as OSX or as repeatable but it does happen, usually during gaming.

Infrared
Nov 8, 2007, 05:20 PM
The smart thing to do is run smcFanControl 2.0 until Apple issues a fan firmware update. I've built a lot of computers in my day and I know that stock for stock the iMac fans spin way too slow. Bump them up from 700/1200/1200rpm to 1500/2500/2000 it's still really quiet. The components don't get nearly as hot. I run 2600/3340/2300 during gaming and encoding. Heat could have been an issue, but I've been running SMC since the week I bought the new iMac, so it's possible I haven't fried my components like some people might have by running stock fan speeds.

And maybe this explains why I can go 6 hours on end gaming without an issue, 10 hours of video encoding without an issue and so on for the last 2 months.

Is that really the smart thing to do? Suppose it just prolongs
the period before your gfx card fails taking you out of the
warranty period? What about wear and tear on the fans?
Etc. etc.

Apple's engineers have chosen those fan speeds for a reason
and I think it's presumptuous to think you know better unless
you also happen to be an engineer that specializes in this area.
They're not completely stupid, you know. If it was that obvious
the fans run too slow, they would have dealt with it ages ago.

flopticalcube
Nov 8, 2007, 05:22 PM
Is that really the smart thing to do? Suppose it just prolongs
the period before your gfx card fails taking you out of the
warranty period? What about wear and tear on the fans?
Etc. etc.

Apple's engineers have chosen those fan speeds for a reason
and I think it's presumptuous to think you know better unless
you also happen to be an engineer that specializes in this area.
They're not completely stupid, you know. If it was that obvious
the fans run too slow, they would have dealt with it ages ago.

MTBF of fans is huge. They probably set the speeds as low as they can for noise reasons. Jobs would rather have no fans at all.

Infrared
Nov 8, 2007, 05:25 PM
Actually, it just makes me glad I saved some money and went with the nVidia card that it comes with.

Quieter too :)

All this kind of makes me wonder why Apple use so much ATI stuff
for OpenGL-based systems. The received wisdom (right or wrong)
is that ATI lean towards DirectX and it's Nvidia that write the better
OpenGL drivers.

AlexisV
Nov 8, 2007, 05:29 PM
I'm skeptical for a few reasons:

- an overheating problem would indicate the cooling is very marginal, which would surely mean everybody would be having problems of various intensity over a period of time. Instead we have the situation where thousands of machines are faultless and others freeze very frequently. It would also mean that those will faultless machines would be bumped into the 'overheating' category by merely exercising the GPU and CPU. Whereas in fact, flawless Macs maintain their flawless performance when pushed to the limit in games for example.

- the artifact issue is a sign of faulty GPU, not just an overheating one. A GPU can quite easily have artifacts and freeze the machine just because it was born a faulty piece of hardware. You'll always have these problems with a certain percentage of silicon. However, it's easy to report such problems to the world on Apple forums. Have the same problem with a brand new Packard Bell PC for example, and you'll really only have the option of posting at one of the hundreds of generic PC forums.

- Apple has released a statement and thinks it is software, not hardware related.

- If the guy on Applesider thinks they replaced the GPU (how does he know this), surely he just had a faulty GPU on his particular machine?

- We never hear whether the problems affect the 2600 and/or the 2400.

Now I'm not saying the problem doesn't exist and I don't want to sound unsympathetic if you have a dodgy machine, it's just that the design flaw idea doesn't stack up.

I suspect there's a combination of faulty Radeon chips out there AND there is some software issue that Apple is trying to fix. I have no idea what this software issue could be trying to fix since every machine should be identical, but the EFI will control things such as voltages to the GPU. Different batches of chips produced at different times in the same factory can react very differently to voltages, as CPU overclockers will know.

CIrawI3riCIge
Nov 8, 2007, 05:36 PM
Wonder if it has anything to do with this (although AMD denied such rumors :rolleyes:):

Headline: AMD software let defective graphics cards slip into the channel

http://digitimes.com/mobos/a20070801PD209.html

t^3
Nov 8, 2007, 05:42 PM
I work at a university computer lab, where we had some Dell Optiplex 740's which were having freezing issues and BSOD's at random. They have a Radeon HD 2400 XT, pretty much similar to the IMac's video chipset. A few weeks ago, Dell came out with both a driver and video BIOS or firmware update, and all is good now. For us, it was definitely not a heat issue, as we had a problematic machine that sits right under an air conditioning outlet, so it was one of the coolest machines in the room. It turns out that the updates disabled the Dynamic Power Management (DPM) feature of the video cards.

I have a feeling that this problem is hardware-specific, but actually due to firmware and not heat, and Apple should look into applying a similar update to the iMacs that disables DPM.

Infrared
Nov 8, 2007, 05:45 PM
Leopard is another interesting thing with these freezing iMacs.. There are quite a few folks that say it made the freezing problems worse for them. But for my iMac it improved things substantially. Its not perfect, granted, but for whatever reason, it is definitely a lot better.

All this reminds me of the time my linux laptop was freezing when
playing a game. I just couldn't figure it out. Some days I could play
for hours without any problems, and others it would lock up almost
immediately. It turned out the problem was dual-booting. If I'd
previously booted into Windows and not powered off before booting
into linux, I'd get the lock-ups. So there was some sort of stored
state from when I'd run Windows that was messing with the card
when I was running linux. I imagine the same thing could happen
with Windows on a Boot Camp partition and OS X, though I admit
it's hardly likely to be the cause of the problems discussed here.

DMann
Nov 8, 2007, 05:50 PM
I'm a recent switcher and this is driving me insane. I NEVER had this many problems with a Windows machine in the past 10 years. After 2 calls to Applecare, Apple won't acknowledge the problem because I can't recreate it on the phone. I think having to send in my brand new machine for repair is unacceptable. I'd be more than willing to swap out my 24" machine at the local Apple store with a working unit.

Go for it!

thoots
Nov 8, 2007, 05:59 PM
How can freezing be a heat issue anyway? ;)

flopticalcube
Nov 8, 2007, 06:00 PM
How can freezing be a heat issue anyway? ;)

freezer burn

Vulpinemac
Nov 8, 2007, 06:04 PM
Um, actually I did. When scores of people were denying up and down that it could be a hardware issue and insisted it was software related, I stated I believed it to be a hardware issue, and I was right.

There is no proof that you were right. While I had those screen-freeze problems when I first bought my iMac (aluminum 24" 2.8Ghz) I no longer have them. The only difference is that I upgraded to Leopard. Before and now my GPU temperatures averaged around 60˚C which is well below their rated maximum of 90˚C.

Again, there is no proof that this problem is at all thermally related.

Vulpinemac
Nov 8, 2007, 06:21 PM
Running iStat pro, (Widget) what temperature is the CPU and GPU diode running at? Normal would be approx 100º CPU and slightly higher for GPU diode.

I would say that you are having a heat problem yourself. My aluminum iMac is only running at 60˚C using iStat Menu and iStat Nano and I still had the screen-freeze problem before Leopard... but not since.

tribulation
Nov 8, 2007, 06:51 PM
I have a feeling that this problem is hardware-specific, but actually due to firmware and not heat, and Apple should look into applying a similar update to the iMacs that disables DPM.

this might be the case with some people,i dont know
what i do know is that ive had my mac pro with radeon x1900 AND an imac for over 2 years. they BOTH worked almost flawlessly for that whole period with tiger. i really barely had any trouble at all and never a single 'artifact' problem

i installed leopard the day it came out and had graphics bugs within the 1st hour on the mac pro and within a day on the imac,which i use less so i noticed the problem later

now go look @ :apple: boards and see the same story thousands of times.the chances of this being a coincidence for me alone having both macs fail the day of leopard is next to nonexistent.the chance of it happening to so many others at the same time just after installing leopard is impossible.and like i said all of the mac friends i have with mac pros and x1900s saw the bugs right away too just after installing leopard.

of course there are faulty graphic cards and bad 'apples' so to speak.thats a given with any computer type.and while some people here may have a hardware fault,i can say without a doubt that mine isnt. there is DEFINITELY SOMETHING WRONG WITH LEOPARD AND MANY GRAPHICS CARDS OR THE WHOLE GRAPHIC CODE IN GENERAL!

irobot2003
Nov 8, 2007, 06:57 PM
I keep reading about these freezes. Is it only happening in new aluminum iMacs?

It's been happening with my August '07 vintage MacBook Pro 17", but not my May '07 vintage MacBook...

Identical setups... used migration assistant to copy things to the MacBook Pro.

Dont Hurt Me
Nov 8, 2007, 07:00 PM
Wonder if it has anything to do with this (although AMD denied such rumors :rolleyes:):

Headline: AMD software let defective graphics cards slip into the channel

http://digitimes.com/mobos/a20070801PD209.htmlVery Interesting and would explain a lot.

4God
Nov 8, 2007, 07:01 PM
Same issue with me. Bought my iMac on Aug 9th, never had a problem until they started to release firmware "fixes". Two days ago did an Archive and Install, did not download 1.1 or 1.2, couldn't anyways Apple removed them because they are clearly bad.

No problems or freeze issues with my current firmware which is .

EFI Driver Version: 01.00.207

Appears to me users with EFI Driver Version xx.xx.212 are the ones having most of the issues. I have yet to see anyone report problems using 207.

Based only on my own experience with this issue and the fact 1.2 just made things worse tells me this is firmware related.

Also has anyone noticed that when you boot into Windows and go into device managers your imac video card shows as a 2600xt not a 2600pro. If that doesn't scream driver issue I don't know what does.

I have EFI version xx.xx.212 and don't have any problems (yet). Also my graphic driver doesn't indicate XT or Pro, should it?

balwx
Nov 8, 2007, 07:16 PM
I was planning on buying a 24"imac for my wife. After looking at them in the stores, I quickly fell in love with the screen. My question is, is there anway to guess what percentage of the systems are experiencing this problem? Am I just over thinking this purchase b/c of the posts here? Also, has apple publically admitted a flaw exists? It is amazing to me that a company of their high standards released a product that sometimes crashes like this. On a serious note, where is the quality control?


Someone please reaffirm that these are small isolated reports. I really want to have more confidence before I buy. Thanks

Call42350
Nov 8, 2007, 07:16 PM
Is it common for other people getting the freezing to be using bluetooth?

I have my 802.11 shut off, so I don't think that is interfering. I will go back to wired keyboard/mouse and report back.



Wow, a couple hours later with USB keyboard/mouse and no crash. Anyone else with the freezing problem have BlueTooth enabled? BTW, I shut it off from System Preferences -> BlueTooth -> BlueTooth Power. Looking good for me!

flopticalcube
Nov 8, 2007, 07:26 PM
Very Interesting and would explain a lot.

That article is from August 1st. Doubt if any defective parts have been in the channels for the last few months.

I was planning on buying a 24"imac for my wife. After looking at them in the stores, I quickly fell in love with the screen. My question is, is there anway to guess what percentage of the systems are experiencing this problem? Am I just over thinking this purchase b/c of the posts here? Also, has apple publically admitted a flaw exists? It is amazing to me that a company of their high standards released a product that sometimes crashes like this. On a serious note, where is the quality control?

Someone please reaffirm that these are small isolated reports. I really want to have more confidence before I buy. Thanks

No one knows and Apple isn't saying. Apple admitted on Oct 4th (via MacWorld) that some iMacs were freezing and that they were working on a fix that would be out "most likely before the end of the month". That fix came on November 2 and didn't fix everyone's problems (most?). In fact it broke things for Tiger users and was subsequently pulled.

Wow, a couple hours later with USB keyboard/mouse and no crash. Anyone else with the freezing problem have BlueTooth enabled? BTW, I shut it off from System Preferences -> BlueTooth -> BlueTooth Power. Looking good for me!

Bluetooth on mine is inactive and it still freezes.

Call42350
Nov 8, 2007, 07:32 PM
Bluetooth on mine is inactive and it still freezes.

It's only been about 2 hours! :) I can actually *USE* my machine a little now! :eek:

EagerDragon
Nov 8, 2007, 07:34 PM
They cite one user who had their video chipset replaced on their iMac who found that the problems had disappeared.


It could also mean that that particular chip or batch of chips had a defect, not necessarly a heat issue. But anything is possible.

SeaFox
Nov 8, 2007, 07:36 PM
If anyone is having overheating issues, try getting some airflow around the computer. Get that clutter out from underneath the machine and pull it a couple inches away from the wall. Then buy Leopard or wait for the next Tiger update to see if your problems don't go away.

I like how this guy's solution to a problem in an Apple product is to buy more Apple products.

EagerDragon
Nov 8, 2007, 07:37 PM
I'm all for Apple's minimalist design philosophy, but this is a good example of possibly sacrificing function for form. Yes, "thinner is better" in Apple's eyes, but at what cost? Do desktops really need to be as thin as possible? Personally, it wouldn't bother me at all if the iMac was half an inch thicker in order to better offset any overheating issues which could have adverse effects such as this.

A thin machine is great, but only if it works properly. :cool:

That I have to agree with. To me having a thin machine is not as important as stability.

EagerDragon
Nov 8, 2007, 07:46 PM
my mac pro was freezing up with the apple screensavers, but switched to aquarium by sache and it didn't lock up

See water cooled.

SeaFox
Nov 8, 2007, 07:54 PM
I'm all for Apple's minimalist design philosophy, but this is a good example of possibly sacrificing function for form. Yes, "thinner is better" in Apple's eyes, but at what cost?

Reminds me of when the MacBook Pros came out in the redesigned case and you couldn't get a DL DVD burner because the case didn't have enough vertical space inside after Apple made it thinner to fit current technology DL drives. It wasn't much thinner, but the last version of the old case you could get a DL drive. So you either had to get a G4 laptop, or wait.

mklos
Nov 8, 2007, 07:56 PM
Posted are the temps for my new Aluminum 24" iMac. The top of mine gets quite hot, but I haven't experienced any artifacts on the screen or lockups. I did have an issue with it kernel panicing on shutdown every once in a great while. Ever since I erased the hard drive and put Leopard on it, I haven't experienced that issue since. Must have been a bad OS installation from the factory which isn't an uncommon thing.

The only thing that is kind of hot on mine for the temps is the power supply. The CPU and GPU isn't as hot as I would think it would be for as hot as the case gets on the very top.

This is a brand new 24" iMac. I got it in August. Its a 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo with 3 GB DDRII RAM, ATI Radeon HD 2600 graphics (256MB).

My dad has a brand new 20" Aluminum iMac with a 2 GHz Core 2 Duo, ATI Radeon 2400 XT (128 MB) and his doesn't get hot at all. The top is just warm.

SeaFox
Nov 8, 2007, 08:07 PM
A 24" iMac, being the largest, has more empty space inside it's case, temperatures wouldn't reach as high in it as they would in a 20".

Dont Hurt Me
Nov 8, 2007, 08:10 PM
A 24" iMac, being the largest, has more empty space inside it's case, temperatures wouldn't reach as high in it as they would in a 20".
What kind of logic is that? think! it takes more power and heat to run a 24" display then a 20 thats why the 24" is burning near 300 watts at max vs the 20's 200.

chadder007
Nov 8, 2007, 08:26 PM
They should have gone with nVidia cards and not "underclocked" ATI parts.

Agreed. But they also may have skimped on the thermal paste for the video card's heat sink.....I recall some company doing that and it fried some of the video cards, the fix was to add more thermal paste.

mixel
Nov 8, 2007, 08:31 PM
Funny, I didnt realise the freezes were UI hangs with the mouse-pointer still moving. XD

My G5 started doing this *occasionally* since the leopard upgrade, and I'm using a flashed ATI 9800 Pro.. Haha. It doesn't happen when graphically intense things are happening though so I'm assuming its completely unrelated.. Maybe ATI drivers do need more work, or maybe mine is USB related (all my issues in the past have been).. Interesting.

SeaFox
Nov 8, 2007, 08:38 PM
What kind of logic is that? think! it takes more power and heat to run a 24" display then a 20 thats why the 24" is burning near 300 watts at max vs the 20's 200.
The display itself is larger, but the rest of the components aren't. Just because the display is using much more power doesn't mean the heat output is proportionally higher. Remember that we're talking about an LCD screen, too. They don't generate nearly as much heat as CRT displays do. The motherboard and graphics card are the same physical dimensions. This is basic computer building, you'll get better airflow in a larger case because everything isn't cramped in such a small space. Hence heat wont be such an issue.

Remember about past cooling issues in 15" Powerbooks, but the 17" monsters weren't having as many issues. Many sites pointed out exactly what I'm saying, the 17"ers didn't have as much trouble because the components were not as cramped inside as in the 15" models.

fluidinclusion
Nov 8, 2007, 08:42 PM
My 24" iMac has been ok (1 freeze only in iPhoto), but my friend's identical machine has had more freezes (both are on 10.4). My friend was able to recover from the freeze (locked mouse) be unplugging the keyboard/mouse and plugging them in the other USB port. No problems since. His freezes started around the first software update.

DaveSM
Nov 8, 2007, 08:55 PM
Sorry to jump into that discussion but I have to correct some misconceptions.

Let's get the facts straights.

An aluminium case, altough thinner, will dissipate more heat then a plastic enclosure.

I'm mechanical team leader in an Autonomous Underwater Vehicule (AUV) competition. We are building our main hull out of folded and welded aluminum sheetmetal. We can keep the computer running in this tiny hull completely colsed all day long under the californian sun if we want and we almost never get any thermal shutdown. The heat generated by our onboard PC (pentium M 1,8ghz running at close to 100% under normal conditions) and our onboard electronics gets the heat at about 75 celsius within the hull. We have absolutely no air coming in our out of the hull and all the heat gets out due to thermal dissipation through the aluminum hull. The only ventilation we have comes from the processor fan and another PC fan hooked above the PC to move the air around within the hull.

Now, considering that Apple's computers have vents to get air in and out and that the aluminum enclosure acts as an heatsink, under the same load and with the same material configuration then previous generation Imac they should run cooler.

This pictures shows the inside of the main hull (there is an electronic card missing, a firewire hub and a bunck of extra cables running around in there that were not there yet when this picture was taken)

http://sonia.etsmtl.ca/private/webPrive/photoalbum/2007/Sub%202007/P6010110.jpg

Luap
Nov 8, 2007, 08:55 PM
Someone above asked a good question, I think: "Has anyone seen this freezing problem in BootCamp"?

After all, if it is a hardware problem it should occur in Windows as well.

Yes, i've had the freeze in Windows XP via Bootcamp. However, that still does not prove it is a hardware fault.

"But!!" Hear me out.. Who do you think made the graphics drivers for Windows/Bootcamp? Thats right.. ATI & Apple, just like the ones in OS X. So the drivers could likely have exactly the same bug in.

Sure, it could be a hardware fault, but im thinking that in most cases, it isn't.

iGen
Nov 8, 2007, 08:56 PM
So is it assumed any new iMacs purchased now will not have the defects/problems? I am thinking of buying an iMac but don't want to if they haven't fixed the issue.

flopticalcube
Nov 8, 2007, 08:57 PM
Yes, i've had the freeze in Windows XP via Bootcamp. However, that still does not prove it is a hardware fault.

"But!!" Hear me out.. Who do you think made the graphics drivers for Windows/Bootcamp? Thats right.. ATI & Apple, just like the ones in OS X. So the drivers could likely have exactly the same bug in.

Sure, it could be a hardware fault, but im thinking that in most cases, it isn't.

Mine still freezes even using the generic 7.10 Catalyst drivers. If it were just the drivers, every HD2600 would lock up.

So is it assumed any new iMacs purchased now will not have the defects/problems? I am thinking of buying an iMac but don't want to if they haven't fixed the issue.

People have reported that ones purchased as recently as a few days ago are still freezing.

mklos
Nov 8, 2007, 09:01 PM
The display itself is larger, but the rest of the components aren't. Just because the display is using much more power doesn't mean the heat output is proportionally higher. Remember that we're talking about an LCD screen, too. They don't generate nearly as much heat as CRT displays do. The motherboard and graphics card are the same physical dimensions. This is basic computer building, you'll get better airflow in a larger case because everything isn't cramped in such a small space. Hence heat wont be such an issue.

Remember about past cooling issues in 15" Powerbooks, but the 17" monsters weren't having as many issues. Many sites pointed out exactly what I'm saying, the 17"ers didn't have as much trouble because the components were not as cramped inside as in the 15" models.

As a person who has a new 24" and 20" aluminum iMacs, I can say that the larger screen puts out far more heat than the 20" model. Like I said in my post, the temps aren't really that hot but the top of the case (aluminum) is very hot. To me, its the screen putting out the extra heat, because the 20" Aluminum iMac in the same household doesn't put out anywhere near the heat. Yes, the CPU doesn't run the same speed, but then again, the CPU or GPU isn't putting out very much heat on either iMac. So that basically leaves the screen putting out the excess heat on the 24" model.

Vulpinemac
Nov 8, 2007, 09:02 PM
I like how this guy's solution to a problem in an Apple product is to buy more Apple products.

...how this guy takes my statement out of context. Note I did NOT say "Buy more Apple products" I said, and he quoted, "...buy Leopard or wait for a Tiger update..." Every option I suggested other than Leopard is free.

DMann
Nov 8, 2007, 09:11 PM
How can freezing be a heat issue anyway? ;)

freezer burn

Military Intelligence?

iGen
Nov 8, 2007, 09:12 PM
People have reported that ones purchased as recently as a few days ago are still freezing.

Damn. Maybe i'll just get a MacBook

DMann
Nov 8, 2007, 09:14 PM
Damn. Maybe i'll just get a MacBook

Such a shame - these machines are amazing - if only a hardware fix and recall would happen sooner rather than later......

roland.g
Nov 8, 2007, 09:16 PM
I called Applecare today and they walked me through the:

Verify & Repair disk off installer disk.

Reboot and run hardware test.

Reboot and reset PRAM.

Here's your case #. Call us if it still happens.

Guess I'll wait to see if I get anymore freezes.

DaveSM
Nov 8, 2007, 09:18 PM
Sorry to jump into that discussion but I have to correct some misconceptions.

Let's get the facts straights.

An aluminium case, altough thinner, will dissipate more heat then a plastic enclosure.

I'm mechanical team leader in an Autonomous Underwater Vehicule (AUV) competition. We are building our main hull out of folded and welded aluminum sheetmetal. We can keep the computer running in this tiny hull completely colsed all day long under the californian sun if we want and we almost never get any thermal shutdown. The heat generated by our onboard PC (pentium M 1,8ghz running at close to 100% under normal conditions) and our onboard electronics gets the heat at about 75 celsius within the hull. We have absolutely no air coming in our out of the hull and all the heat gets out due to thermal dissipation through the aluminum hull. The only ventilation we have comes from the processor fan and another PC fan hooked above the PC to move the air around within the hull.

Now, considering that Apple's computers have vents to get air in and out and that the aluminum enclosure acts as an heatsink, under the same load and with the same material configuration then previous generation Imac they should run cooler.

This pictures shows the inside of the main hull (there is an electronic card missing, a firewire hub and a bunck of extra cables running around in there that were not there yet when this picture was taken)

http://sonia.etsmtl.ca/private/webPrive/photoalbum/2007/Sub%202007/P6010110.jpg

I forgot to add that we plan to switch to an Intel C2D clocked at 1,5ghz this year and we don't foresee any major heat issues.

snugharbor
Nov 8, 2007, 09:46 PM
I have a Mac Pro with 3 WD drives, 6 gigs of ran and the cheaper Nvidia and have had no problems thus far with heat and 10.5. I almost paid $230 more for the X1900 so I could rotate my screen but saved my money and just kept the standard card. Later an update allowed rotation with Nvidia. My Mac Pro is quiet but if you go over to Apple and the x1900 rankings and reviews there are lots of complaints about the x1900 almost immediately after the card came out and little response from Apple.

All I can say is that my Mac Pro with Nvidia has had no problems so far. My wife has had the aluminum 20" iMac for a month and no problems with 10.5 but after reading this thread I will keep a watch. If there are problems I am going to print out some of these posts in case the Apple support claims that mine is the first instance of this problem. Perhaps those guys should make it a point to visit here.



VERY PROMINENT!! i'd call it more like UNUSABLE
mac pro & x1900 is messed up on leopard big time
part of my MEGABUGS post yesterday. 6 of my friends and me have the mac pros with x1900 and since upgrading to leopard see lines and junk drawn all over the screen that was never there in tiger
another :apple: rush job.like i said before this bug comes up on 7/7 mac pros with the :apple: included radeon x1900 so i find it hard to believe that :apple: didnt notice this megabug before releasing it to us and making us pay for a broken system
and like i said before a new os is bound to have some bugs but the huge ones in leopard that make it unusable for many people with such glaring bugs there is no excuse

pavelbure
Nov 8, 2007, 09:49 PM
I called Applecare today and they walked me through the:

Verify & Repair disk off installer disk.

Reboot and run hardware test.

Reboot and reset PRAM.

Here's your case #. Call us if it still happens.

Guess I'll wait to see if I get anymore freezes.


you will


i got my card replaced today and ran leopard for a hour with not 1 freeze. i am happy to finally have a machine now that does not freeze. if you have applecare, ask if they can send a technician out to your house, they won't offer this option unless you ask and they are obligated to do this if there is a tech within 50 miles of where you live.

Mysticneonglow
Nov 8, 2007, 09:50 PM
Funny, I didnt realise the freezes were UI hangs with the mouse-pointer still moving. XD

My G5 started doing this *occasionally* since the leopard upgrade, and I'm using a flashed ATI 9800 Pro.. Haha. It doesn't happen when graphically intense things are happening though so I'm assuming its completely unrelated.. Maybe ATI drivers do need more work, or maybe mine is USB related (all my issues in the past have been).. Interesting.

Thank you! finally someone else with a non iMac speaking up, I have the same ATI card in my G5 but I had this problem before my Leopard upgrade.

meh
Nov 8, 2007, 10:02 PM
I've had my iMac since 10/7
updated to Leopard a few days ago

and then I noticed the first and only freeze

it happened while trying out the new iTunes visualizations in full screen mode.

it hasn't happened again though
so I'm not sure what to do

my comp seems fine
but it did have that one freeze and I'm paranoid that it'll start happening

DMann
Nov 8, 2007, 11:58 PM
you will


i got my card replaced today and ran leopard for a hour with not 1 freeze. i am happy to finally have a machine now that does not freeze. if you have applecare, ask if they can send a technician out to your house, they won't offer this option unless you ask and they are obligated to do this if there is a tech within 50 miles of where you live.

This is really great! What kind of graphics card did you wind up getting? The house call is best, because it gets done then and there - no turn around time - instant results......

MacinDoc
Nov 9, 2007, 01:15 AM
If true, this is really bad news for Apple. It could result in a massive recall.

DMann
Nov 9, 2007, 01:41 AM
If true, this is really bad news for Apple. It could result in a massive recall.

If it does turn out that ATI delivered faulty graphics cards, I would imagine they would be obliged to cover at least part of the costs involved with a recall of this magnitude.

MacBiscuit
Nov 9, 2007, 02:35 AM
Mine only froze the once and has been fine since.

So I personally wouldn't welcome a recall as such - if it ain't broke etc... What I think Apple should do if this is a hardware fault is simply extend the warranty indefinitely with regard to this specific problem. Didn't they do something similar with iBook logic boards a while back? I'd be quite satified to know that if the graphics card fries two or three years down the line then Apple will fix the issue. I can then enjoy my iMac worry free now.

And no I don't have Applecare. I prefer to rely on UK law that a product should be manufactured fit for purpose - which means a premium priced computer should be reasonably expected not to fail for several years. I don't see why I should pay Apple additional insurance against faults in their design or manufacture. If they get us all to purchase Applecare there's not much incentive for them to perform QC is there?

126351
Nov 9, 2007, 02:54 AM
Lots of people are saying that they have had their GPU replaced and are now freeze-free but none of them state what GPU they have now.

Is it still an ATI? Same or higher spec ATI? Maybe an nVIDIA?

It would be good to know what the replacement cards are.

iSlave
Nov 9, 2007, 03:03 AM
I've been reading about this iMac freezing problem for quite some time now. I got new Alu iMac shortly after they appeared, and I don't think I've had any freezing issues. However, sometimes when trying to reply to a message in Mail, it will 'beach ball' for quite some time before allowing me to do so. Also, Safari has crashed more times than any of my previous macs.

Is this the same kind of issue that other people are having??

126351
Nov 9, 2007, 03:09 AM
I've been reading about this iMac freezing problem for quite some time now. I got new Alu iMac shortly after they appeared, and I don't think I've had any freezing issues. However, sometimes when trying to reply to a message in Mail, it will 'beach ball' for quite some time before allowing me to do so. Also, Safari has crashed more times than any of my previous macs.

Is this the same kind of issue that other people are having??

Sounds more like a bad install. The freeze issues require a hard reboot and the cursor is still active.

Saying that, even on my Mini, Safari has been really unstable since all the fanfare of the cross-platform Safari 3 (I'm not even on Safari 3 - perhaps it's more evidence of Apple's QA slipping on software upgrades).

AlexisV
Nov 9, 2007, 04:11 AM
I have said to many people now - if you are thinking of buying an iMac - forget it. This is my first and it is the most unreliable computer I have ever bought. Applecare say they can't do anything. They won't take the machine back, and the whole experience is simply frustrating.

I did keep hoping that some kind of software update would solve the problem - but this news today has really brought me right down.

What exactly did they say to you? You can legally demand a replacement or refund as it is not of merchantable quality, whatever Apple may say.
There are plenty of perfect iMacs out there - don't let them fob you off.

gattotimo
Nov 9, 2007, 04:19 AM
And no I don't have Applecare. I prefer to rely on UK law that a product should be manufactured fit for purpose - which means a premium priced computer should be reasonably expected not to fail for several years. I don't see why I should pay Apple additional insurance against faults in their design or manufacture. If they get us all to purchase Applecare there's not much incentive for them to perform QC is there?
Another Applecare DON'T buyer here. Eurpean laws force Apple to give us TWO years of warranty (even if they claim they give one), and I think that a defective hardware issue wiould surface within that time-span.

drafty5857
Nov 9, 2007, 07:46 AM
Software...Hardware....Software??!?? May be both....

My Imac seems to freeze with with no pattern, plus programs (iPhoto, Imovie, Pages, Safari, Firefox) shut down instantly. I have never had freeze during encoding, its usually when I'm switching from one program to another or sometimes just reading email/surfing and seems completely random. It could have been running for days or for a couple of hours. Its driving me NUTS!!

My wife's Macbook works like a charm however, never crashed.

CColdsmoke
Nov 9, 2007, 08:11 AM
They're citing one user's experience? Well, here's another single user experience: my aluminum iMac stopped freezing after I installed Leopard. Although I chose not to install the last iMac "fix" since I didn't want to ruin the mojo of two consecutive weeks without a freeze.

PMR
Nov 9, 2007, 08:30 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Appleinsider suggests (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/11/08/freezing_imacs_may_be_victims_of_hardware_not_software.html) that the freezing iMac problem may be related to overheating hardware rather than any particular software issue.

They cite one user who had their video chipset replaced on their iMac who found that the problems had disappeared.

While this remains speculative, it could mean that no software solution will be able to repair the issue. A similar but less publicizd issue has affected early owners ot the ATI Radeon X1900 video card for the Mac Pro. Some have noted these issues have become more prominent (http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1195969) under Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard) due to its increased dependance on the GPU.




Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/11/08/freezing-imac-issue-due-to-hardware/)

I doubt as the problem being overheating. As some users pointed, they get artifacts which leads to bad/overclocked vram, bad/overclocked gpu. Since none of these guys OCed the gpu/vram in OSX, this leads to a pipeline problem which it can't render textures as it should, hence the artifacts.

My gpu rises to 90ºC if I don't manually raise the fan speed to 2000rpm and I've never had a lock up. And the locks at the restart are due to what? Temperatures too low? :D

I can only think in two problems:
- Random batch of bad gpus/vram which need replacement
- Faulty drivers (which is odd since a lot of us have the same set of drivers and some get lock ups and some don't)

PMR
Nov 9, 2007, 08:35 AM
Another Applecare DON'T buyer here. Eurpean laws force Apple to give us TWO years of warranty (even if they claim they give one), and I think that a defective hardware issue wiould surface within that time-span.

Me too. US buyers are robbed by their laws if that's the case. As UE members, we have 2 year warranty. We may swap our macs without paying ***** after 1 year and 364 days after the purchase date.

gattotimo
Nov 9, 2007, 10:46 AM
Me too. US buyers are robbed by their laws if that's the case.
Yeah, they're robbed in that way, but they pay for their Apple products MUCH less than we do (good for them): USD to EURO conversion is 1:1 according to Apple, even if an EURO is actually worth almost 1,5 USD :mad:. That means Euro prices are almost 50% higher than US prices... the 2 year warranty is the LEAST that Apple can do for us poor european bastards :(. It's not their choice by the way :p.

lolibra
Nov 9, 2007, 11:22 AM
Yeah, they're robbed in that way, but they pay for their Apple products MUCH less than we do (good for them): USD to EURO conversion is 1:1 according to Apple, even if an EURO is actually worth almost 1,5 USD :mad:. That means Euro prices are almost 50% higher than US prices... the 2 year warranty is the LEAST that Apple can do for us poor european bastards :(. It's not their choice by the way :p.
Have you considered that the high prices there are partially due to your law? Apple is just putting the warranty costs directly into the price of the product. Basically, your law is forcing everybody to buy a 2yr version of the AppleCare.

AppleMojo
Nov 9, 2007, 11:27 AM
And no I don't have Applecare. I prefer to rely on UK law that a product should be manufactured fit for purpose - which means a premium priced computer should be reasonably expected not to fail for several years.

I completely agree, I am getting real tired of these extra warranties and guarantees. Head to home depot, sears, best buy and lowes... everything they sell they offer you their extended repair and service plan.

I don't see why I should pay Apple additional insurance against faults in their design or manufacture. If they get us all to purchase Applecare there's not much incentive for them to perform QC is there?

What makes me buy AppleCare is that it was $169.00 to extend the coverage to 3 full years and this includes unlimited telephone support as well. I'm a technical guy and won't call for technical support, but calling when the machine dies or needing it serviced when the screen somehow got the shape of a baseball bat imprinted in it directly after it froze is nice.

jtkiley
Nov 9, 2007, 11:58 AM
My personal experience can confirm that it is overheating.

I can launch WoW on my 2.4 GHz 24" Al iMac, and it will freeze within 2 minutes of loading the game. However, I can then open a nearby window (only opening it about 2 inches) to the ~40 F Manhattan air, reboot, and reload WoW and have it work for hours. The airflow from the window appears to cool the nearby air down enough to eliminate the problem. Even without it, I don't tend to keep my apartment all that warm.

This is unlike previous Mac overheating issues that I am familiar with. Even from a cold boot, I can consistently get it to freeze in a couple minutes without some cool airflow.

So, I just crack the window open, fire up WoW, throw on some pajamas, and pour a nice 16 year scotch (Lagavulin for those interested). I'll eventually take it to have the video replaced, but I'll wait until I go on vacation.

BlackMax
Nov 9, 2007, 12:37 PM
I've had so many problems with ATI in the past that I'm biased against ATI. :mad:

So I believe if Apple had gone with an Nvidia graphics solution in their new iMac this would not be an issue.

Luap
Nov 9, 2007, 12:44 PM
They're citing one user's experience? Well, here's another single user experience: my aluminum iMac stopped freezing after I installed Leopard. Although I chose not to install the last iMac "fix" since I didn't want to ruin the mojo of two consecutive weeks without a freeze.

lol :D Well put! I did the same as you, and had much the same experience also.


So I believe if Apple had gone with an Nvidia graphics solution in their new iMac this would not be an issue.

I agree for the most part. There would be much less issues for sure. But something makes me wonder.. There are posts from folks in the MBP forum that have exactly the same freezing symptoms. Its not anywhere near as prolific as the iMac freezing problems. But still, the symptoms are identical, and those macs use Nvidea, not ATI.

morespce54
Nov 9, 2007, 01:11 PM
My new 2.8 iMac (August) never froze, and I have been planning in upgrading to 10.5 within the next week or so, however, my iMac has started freezing in the last 10 days, about 4 or 5 times so far.

That's because you haven't updated yet to 10.5 ;):D

But seriously, I know it's not related but two of my Macs (which are still on Tiger) also started to act wonkly since October... My 10.5 Mac is doing good 'tho...(cross-fingers)

morespce54
Nov 9, 2007, 01:28 PM
my mac pro was freezing up with the apple screensavers, but switched to aquarium by sache and it didn't lock up

Well, we found it! ;)
The problem lies in Apple screen savers... ;)
Dargn Flurry!

morespce54
Nov 9, 2007, 01:32 PM
How could I forget about that one! :eek: Oh wait, that's right, it's because I attempted to wipe it from memory... :p ;) :D

Try using your Time Machine, it should get back (be restored) in a snap! :D

risc
Nov 9, 2007, 03:23 PM
My iMac is from early August and I've had no issues at all. I decided to stress it yesterday so from 7:30 AM until 2:00 AM the next day I had the Arabesque screen saver running, and a heap of apps running to get the CPU usage up to full. After all of those hours everything was still just running. So I'm calling no issues on my Mac. This machine is running Leopard 10.5.0 installed via erase and install.

A friend is having issues with his machine but he has ssh enabled and just logs on and reboots. I asked him to just log in via ssh and kill -9 the locked up app, he got back to me today and said he tried this and the machine just went back to normal. This sounds life a software issue to me.

Obviously there are some hardware issues with some people getting video artifacts on the screen.

JohnHawkins
Nov 9, 2007, 03:24 PM
I called it weeks ago. I knew it.

Overheating ATI cards FTW. Apple chooses cost over quality. Consumers lose.

ATI SUCKS I am NEVER BUYING ATI!!!

atl27426
Nov 9, 2007, 03:30 PM
ATI SUCKS I am NEVER BUYING ATI!!!


With an iMac currently you don't have an option, its ATI or a different system.

lugesm
Nov 9, 2007, 04:36 PM
I have been running my first Mac (24" iMac Aluminum) since September 5 without any such freezing. (Fingers crossed :( )
I have converted from Tiger to Leopard in the last two weeks with no detrimental effects.

Having said all that . . . I recently upgraded my wife's Mac-Mini from 0.5 to 2.0GB memory. I am an experienced electronics engineer, and I must say that was a hair-raising experience. This comment goes to form versus function. After the mini memory upgrade I started thinking about Apple's apparent bias towards "cute-sie" products. The Mac mini could easily have been a little larger allowing better mechanical packaging internally, thereby a more reliable product . . . certainly more easily accessed for upgrades or repairs.

The already-large 24" iMac could have been a little thicker without compromising the appearance IMHO. "Larger" always allows for better heat management; and any design engineer can tell you that heat is the primary enemy of electronic components.

By the way, my 24" Al iMac never runs over 52 degrees C at any point, according to the "iStat pro" widget . Is this typical?

goldenkidx
Nov 9, 2007, 05:20 PM
I purchased a 24in 2.8ghz imac the day they came out (Aug 7th I believe). Had a kernal panic when booting up from an external firewire hard drive but that was only one time. Otherwise NO PROBLEMS, running 10.5 now.

craig1410
Nov 9, 2007, 07:04 PM
Quote removed on request.
This is very interesting!

How do we get the MemVendorID? Is this in system profiler under Graphics/Displays just under VRAM where on my machine it says: Vendor: ATI(0x1002) ?

When you say they have a fix due for release, so you mean a software fix or a hardware fix?

Thanks,
Craig.

Sun Baked
Nov 9, 2007, 07:08 PM
How do we get the MemVendorID? Is this in system profiler under Graphics/Displays just under VRAM where on my machine it says: Vendor: ATI(0x1002) ?

When you say they have a fix due for release, so you mean a software fix or a hardware fix?

Thanks,
Craig.


For those with Freezing iMacs and those without too. (aka MemVendorID) (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=384517)

KurtangleTN
Nov 9, 2007, 07:20 PM
Damn this is frustrating, I need a new computer with my iBook dead, have been saving for ages for a new Mac.. but really am afraid to pull the trigger and have a freezer.

Despite my iBook dying I never once had to reboot it in about the 8 months I owned it, because of freezing or any other issues. In fact before it died I had 98 days of uptime, then the logic board crapped out.. so freezing/kernel panics are foreign to me on a Mac, and I really am hoping they aren't common now.

Vulpinemac
Nov 9, 2007, 07:39 PM
Ok, mellow out here!

You've heard a lot of fluff on this forum and almost all of it is pure speculation. Obviously there are several different problems that seem to have the same symptom. Interestingly enough, there are also several different solutions.

First off, heat is hardly likely to be the problem. In my own case and my wife's case, our iMac aluminum computers had the freezing issue from the week we purchased them... on the day they were first announced in August. It wasn't a constant thing like some of you are complaining of, but it happened at least once a week on both machines.
We tried troubleshooting a number of different ways, including pulling down iStat and simultaneously monitoring processor usage, drive activity, network activity, fan speeds and internal temperatures. All of these points were monitored dynamically for extended periods.
At no point did any of these components operate beyond their rated capabilities and their temperatures stayed WELL below 100˚C, usually less than 50˚C.

Apple has claimed there is a software problem and I have to agree with them. Why? Because in the course of upgrading and using OS X 10.5 Leopard the problem has disappeared for me... Neither machine has frozen once in over two weeks!

Yes, I know some of you claim increases rather than decreases. My guess is that the new version of Darwin has changed permissions in several areas and your machines are running into software conflicts based on these permissions, rather than any real hardware issues. I would recommend running the Disk Utility on your hard drive and fix permissions; see if that doesn't alleviate your freezeups.

The actual video drivers have been fixed, or seem to be. I would expect that the next update to 10.4 will carry that same fix.

pavelbure
Nov 9, 2007, 08:04 PM
the card they exchanged mine with is the same ati card that was in before hd2600

DMann
Nov 9, 2007, 08:59 PM
the card they exchanged mine with is the same ati card that was in before hd2600

Do you know if it's the 2300 XT or the X 1600? Either way, you're better off, for now, until the aforementioned fix is released........

gcortega
Nov 9, 2007, 10:32 PM
I own a 20" 2.4 Core 2 Duo and just started experiencing this problem. I was using a couple of programs and then the system just became unresponsive except for the mouse. I also use bootcamp and run very graphic intensive games and its never froze even though the iMac became very hot. I hope this is a software issue and either apple or ATI can fix it

Luap
Nov 9, 2007, 10:41 PM
This MemVendor/RevisionID thing is the first decent evidence i've seen in 3 months that really looks like its homing right in on the cause of the problem.
But of course it creates a new question too..

Is this issue with the ID code itself? Or the VRAM from the supplier that this code presumably points to?

Im guessing/hoping it is the former, as suggestions of a forthcoming software fix would indicate as much. That being the case, then Hurrah! :D
If the latter, then its crappy VRAM. So hardware... In which case.. Boo :mad:

Anyway, thanks for posting your info samt14 :)

irobot2003
Nov 9, 2007, 10:58 PM
This MemVendor/RevisionID thing is the first decent evidence i've seen in 3 months that really looks like its homing right in on the cause of the problem.
But of course it creates a new question too..

Is this issue with the ID code itself? Or the VRAM from the supplier that this code presumably points to?

Im guessing/hoping it is the former, as suggestions of a forthcoming software fix would indicate as much. That being the case, then Hurrah! :D
If the latter, then its crappy VRAM. So hardware... In which case.. Boo :mad:

Anyway, thanks for posting your info samt14 :)

Well as someone else said it's probably that people are reporting slightly different symptoms as the same issue, and there are multiple factors at play. I was seeing freezing on my MacBook Pro which has an Nvidia GeForce 8600M GT... so can't just be an ATI driver issue.

On the bright side, they just now released an update for MacBook Pros so maybe that will fix my freeze...

pavelbure
Nov 9, 2007, 11:25 PM
Do you know if it's the 2300 XT or the X 1600? Either way, you're better off, for now, until the aforementioned fix is released........


after re reading my confusing post i will be more clear this time.

i still have the ATI,RadeonHD2600 card and it has been working great.

baslotto
Nov 10, 2007, 02:20 AM
Hi everyone.
I just got my new iMac 24" 2.8 GHz today.
I did all the upgrades in Tiger.

All of the sudden I got a black screen, like the monitor went off, playing with Frontrow on and off (I was awared of the freezing issue and I was testing). I went to work.

I came back from work and turned on my new iMac.
I noticed "some" (8-10?) white orizontal lines about 1/2" long on the screen.

Played with Frontrow again and the screen went black (off) once again after 5 seconds of testing. From cold off, the very first 30 second after I turned the computer on.

I forced the computer off. Gave it a little time to cool off again. Turned on and once again after playing with Frontrow on and off I got the screen off (dark, black.. off!)

After that I did the same thing once again. Nothing, everything ok. played with a game that makes the fans go crazy on my MacBook. Still fine.
Played with Frontrow once again 10-15 times on and off. Still fine.

Now my questions:
- is the "freezing" issue the fact that the screen turns off and there is no way to wake the computer up?
- Are the "artifacts" that people talk about those white little orizontal lines I saw when I turned the computer on when I came back from work?

Do I have a "sick iMac"????

Thank you for any help. I leave 10 minutes from an Apple store but I also got it online, now the question is "are they going to exchange it with a new piece if I got a bad one?"

Once again thank you for making my situation a little clearer.
Bas.

Marble
Nov 10, 2007, 02:38 AM
You've definitely got a problem. I would get it swapped with another one while you still can with no questions asked.

You don't quite fit the archetype victim (whose iMac freezes with mouse still mobile), but if you have a spare week to read through all the iMac freezing threads you'll notice that many people are (in addition to or instead of normal symptoms) experiencing black screens and artifacts like what you've described—in fact there's a screenshot out there that sounds exactly like them. The fact that it happens in Frontrow pretty much nails your case closed, to mix a metaphor.

DMann
Nov 10, 2007, 03:22 AM
You've definitely got a problem. I would get it swapped with another one while you still can with no questions asked.

You don't quite fit the archetype victim (whose iMac freezes with mouse still mobile), but if you have a spare week to read through all the iMac freezing threads you'll notice that many people are (in addition to or instead of normal symptoms) experiencing black screens and artifacts like what you've described—in fact there's a screenshot out there that sounds exactly like them. The fact that it happens in Frontrow pretty much nails your case closed, to mix a metaphor.

Agreed................... This, too could be due to a video card defect of some sort - I've had that happen to a G4 Sawtooth when the video card went.

$MacUser$
Nov 11, 2007, 04:19 PM
I was back and fourth between springing for Rev. A and waiting for Montevina (Rev B), and now I know exactly what I'm going to be doing. My trusty powerbook will hold out until then...

Gunnyman
Nov 11, 2007, 07:10 PM
Someone above asked a good question, I think: "Has anyone seen this freezing problem in BootCamp"?

After all, if it is a hardware problem it should occur in Windows as well. If it's not happening in Windows then we should assume that a future Apple Software Update should be able to fix this.

I don't have one of these iMacs, but a friend of mine does and he has seen it freeze. I only buy refurbished stuff from Apple, for precisely these reasons (and to save a bit of $$$).


In Vista I got a Blue Screen on my 20 inch 2.4 ghz Aluminum iMac.
I had the machine for two days and had lock ups at day one.
Apple is now replacing that machine.

baslotto
Nov 12, 2007, 01:21 AM
I had the machine for two days and had lock ups at day one.
Apple is now replacing that machine.

Same exact thing here.

I was afraid I would get a bad one and reading the posts I decided to go ahead and buy one. After all they are talking about 95% chances to get a good one right??
Well, I was part of that 5%. The computer doesn't even allow me to open FrontRow more than 4 times. Leopard is worst than Tiger. In Tiger the freeze was a black screen. In Leopard I see most of the time the mouse moving.
I'm shipping it back tomorrow for replacing it with a new one.
My questions are: is it really only 5% of the iMacs that have problems or the percentage is higher? Why don't they do a little research and stop shipping the bad ones?
Can everybody run some tests like FrontRow in-out a couple of times and tell me: don't worry! My machine is PERFECT.
I need hope...

Bas.

lugesm
Nov 12, 2007, 05:52 AM
I have been running an Al iMac 24 since September 5. Loaded Leopard on October 27. No problem with OS upgrade.

Have experienced NO freezes to date, but the machine is still fairly simple in that I have not loaded many 3rd party apps. I have loaded several hundred pictures to iPhoto and several hundred mp3s to iTunes.

QUESTION: Would it be wise for me to upgrade to iMac 1.3 anyway? Or, could this just cause problems where I don't have any now? Other fixes in 1.3?

Thanks for your comments.

Miharu
Nov 12, 2007, 06:23 AM
I am finally taking my iMac for Apple to be fixed today. Hope to get it back soon. I'll report if the freezing still exists... With my luck, it will :(

Queso
Nov 12, 2007, 07:05 AM
Can everybody run some tests like FrontRow in-out a couple of times and tell me: don't worry! My machine is PERFECT.
I need hope...

Bas.
I spent about three hours in Front Row yesterday after first entering, then accidentally hitting Menu on the remote and exiting, then menu again to re-enter, then watched two AVI files from my hard disk, came out of Front Row and played a bit of Nanosaur 2 in Rosetta (yeah, must buy the UB version at some point :D). No freezes.

(And yeah, I normally do something more useful with my weekends, but this was the first free weekend in a while as my wedding was the week before last and last week we were shopping in Barcelona. :))

ToneMonkey
Nov 12, 2007, 12:24 PM
Hey guys. Thanks in advance for any info you might provide.

I was holding off buying an alumimum 2.8 24" iMac so that i could get Leopard pre-installed. I'm glad I did.

I'm seeing some pretty good deals on the older (non-aluminum versions). I may do that instead.

Question... have we in fact isolated these freezes to newer aluminim cases? Has anyone with an older iMac experienced freezes, either before or after upgrading to Leopard?

JamSandwich
Nov 12, 2007, 01:49 PM
I've been holding out on picking up an iMac (my first Apple desktop) just because the price differential between here (Canada) and there (U.S.) drives me nuts.

Needless to say, this whole "freezing issue" is troubling... makes me less concerned about the wait. I know not everyone gets hit by the Mac hardware issue du jour (I've got a first-gen MacBook that's running fine, knock on wood), but I'm happy to give some time for them to iron it out... and knock that price down a bit to reflect the new reality of foreign exchange rates.

Wild-Bill
Nov 12, 2007, 02:10 PM
There is no proof that you were right.

Really? :rolleyes: Here you go, Vulpinemac. HARDWARE issue. Besides, I don't need to prove anything to you.

guys, i mentioned before i use to intern at ATI in the apple group. I contacted some people there, they finally answers. They said it has to do with the memory id on the graphics chip. They are NOT the same on all cards, they use different vendors for the memory on the graphics card. The problem occurs at boot, that's why the freezing is random. Look at the MemVendorID for those that are freezing. They should all be the same.

They also told me they working on the fix and it will be released next week. I already gave my mac in today to change the logic board and ATI chip, just wanted to let others know.

samt14
Nov 12, 2007, 04:48 PM
Really? :rolleyes: Here you go, Vulpinemac. HARDWARE issue. Besides, I don't need to prove anything to you.

Guys i just wanted to say the info i posted was incorrect. I got confused with something else. It has nothing to do with the memory id's on the ATI cards. I still hope there is a fix for whatever it is though. I'm not sure what the issue is but will be hoping for a fix soon

PMR
Nov 12, 2007, 08:38 PM
Guys i just wanted to say the info i posted was incorrect. I got confused with something else. It has nothing to do with the memory id's on the ATI cards. I still hope there is a fix for whatever it is though. I'm not sure what the issue is but will be hoping for a fix soon

Now I see why you didn't get the job at ATI...:D

Beware of further comments, some people here thought you where fully right which gave place to further debates. And I believed you also...:mad:

Vulpinemac
Nov 15, 2007, 09:40 PM
Really? :rolleyes: Here you go, Vulpinemac. HARDWARE issue. Besides, I don't need to prove anything to you.

Well, Wild Bill, you were wrong. Apple just released a Firmware upgrade with the Leopard update today (Thursday, 15 Nov.) with the specific intent to fix the stability issue. Where's your proof again?

flyinmac
Nov 15, 2007, 10:11 PM
Well, Wild Bill, you were wrong. Apple just released a Firmware upgrade with the Leopard update today (Thursday, 15 Nov.) with the specific intent to fix the stability issue. Where's your proof again?

I'm not saying it is hardware. But, it still could be.

While you cannot fix hardware with software, you can hide symptoms of bad hardware with software.

So, it could still be bad hardware. But, they may have found a way to "cover-up" a symptom without replacing the hardware.

Intel once did the same thing with processors that had a rather major calculation error. Rather than recall the processors, they used a software patch to compensate for the problem.

Actually, many processors contain defects (or routines that fail to function as originally planned). Once the final shipping version is released, the processor company (for example Intel or AMD) will publish a list of known issues. The manufacturers of computers and operating systems can then write routines that minimize the effects (or compensate for the defects) and maintain a stable system.

The freezing issue may not have been a hardware defect. But, if it were simply a driver issue, then a firmware update would not have been necessary.

It wasn't an OS issue, since the problem survived OS 10.4 to continue in 10.5.

We do know that ATI had some acknowledged hardware defects that led to replacement parts in the PC world.

It's possible that Apple just found a way to prevent the defect from producing the symptom without replacing all the hardware at their expense. If so, that doesn't fix the defect, but rather modifies the operation so that the defect doesn't affect anything.

Consider the whole tread separation issue with the Firestone tires. After enough trucks had rolled-over, Firestone recalled the tires.

Other brands were affected by the same issue, but not all of them recalled the tires.

My trucks tires had the exact same issue. But, they were not recalled. Instead, they issued a statement that said if you maintained the tires air pressure at a specific amount, that the issue would not present itself.

Keeping the tires inflated at the exact pressure they specified didn't fix the defect in the tire. But, it prevented the tire's tread from separating.

Of course, the tire wouldn't grab on the ice very well anymore. But, the tread remained in-tact.

Anyway, the freezing iMac issue may be resolved. But, the firmware patch neither proves or disproves the possibility of it being hardware related.

If it does fix the problem without disabling an important feature, or reducing performance, then that's great.

Only those that care enough to investigate will determine whether specifications have been somehow altered or performance impaired. Hopefully for the iMac owners, no compromise was necessary.

baslotto
Nov 16, 2007, 11:16 AM
Now the big question: "What the hell was causing the problem???".

They'll never tell us, will they. I still think that it was related to hardware since the problem was showing up in few machines and not in others. After all the OSX install DVD is the same for all of them.
They probably figured out how to make the components all even.
Sill curious to know tho'. I'm still waiting for the new machine to be shipped, if I knew I would have waited before I retuned it last week... :o

Bas.

~Shard~
Nov 16, 2007, 11:25 AM
Now the big question: "What the hell was causing the problem???"

Who cares?! :p ;) Seriously, obviously Apple knows and applied a targetted fix for this (and successfully I might add, based on the feedback) so we can have confidence that they know and understand the specifics of the issue and have adequately adddressed them. Good enough for me. :cool:

MyTwoCents
Nov 16, 2007, 02:54 PM
Hi list,

I followed the thread anxiously, thank you all for the important information.

Can anyone of the original posters confirm that the new Firmware actually fixed their Al Imacs?

thanks,

flyinmac
Nov 16, 2007, 02:58 PM
Hi list,

I followed the thread anxiously, thank you all for the important information.

Can anyone of the original posters confirm that the new Firmware actually fixed their Al Imacs?

thanks,



I can confirm that my iMac has absolutely no freezing or crashing issues.


Oh, wait.... It's a G3. That must have something to do with it. :D

Mindflux
Nov 16, 2007, 03:19 PM
I can confirm that my iMac has absolutely no freezing or crashing issues.


Oh, wait.... It's a G3. That must have something to do with it. :D


It's too slow to do either?
:D

Vulpinemac
Nov 20, 2007, 10:50 AM
Well, Wild Bill, you were wrong. Apple just released a Firmware upgrade with the Leopard update today (Thursday, 15 Nov.) with the specific intent to fix the stability issue. Where's your proof again?

I am willing to admit it when I'm wrong, assuming for the moment that I am wrong. Approximately one day after running the firmware update for my GPU, my iMac froze, though this time in an almost predictable manner. Unlike previous freezes, less than 24 hours later it froze again in almost exactly the same manner, while an OpenGL screensaver was running.

I took my machine to the Apple Store after making an appointment through Apple's telephone service representatives. The phone tech suggested a number of different troubleshooting tasks, all of which I had done over the course of the prior two weeks. Interestingly enough, those tasks didn't seem to change the problem when I'd done them, but the firmware update did. On realizing this, the phone tech made the appointment for me at the local Apple Store where the Genius Bar tech used a UNIX command to check all the installed hardware down to the serial numbers of the GPU memory.

Based on his discovery, he recommended leaving the machine at the store and letting them replace the GPU. Due to business needs at home and the fact that my wife's iMac failed in almost exactly the same manner, we arranged to drop off both machines for repair later in the week when we didn't need them for a period of time. We won't know if the GPU replacement will fix the problem yet, but I will pass on what I learn.

Until then, it appears I was wrong and that hardware in the form of ATI's GPU memory may be the true culprit. I apologize to Wild Bill in part; but still believe that the firmware update may well have fixed the majority of the issues.

Svenjissom
Apr 15, 2008, 02:09 PM
There are a couple of threads on the Apple discussion boards (http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=6952094) about very similar problems with older iMacs. In my case it is an iMac 6,1 (24" Intel Core 2 Duo 2.16 GZ, 3GB RAM) with the Nvidia 7300GT video card, the problem only started after upgrtding to 10.5, now I frequently get screen garbage followed by a video freeze. On one of the Apple threads someone mentioned that the problem disappeared when booting in safe mode, which I can confirm.