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MacRumors
Sep 18, 2003, 11:34 AM
Reader mail: "There have been some rumors about a 2-button mouse. I asked [a] rep. about them. He said he was just at Apple for training on the new products (PowerBooks, G5, and Bluetooth peripherals). He was told that the rumors were false. He said that he was told, 'There will be a 2 button mouse when a) Jobs leaves Apple or b) when hell freezes over'."



Awimoway
Sep 18, 2003, 11:39 AM
Here's hoping for a little frost in the underworld.


On the other hand, I know they do read online rumor sites, and I can only hope they saw and understood this week's landslide of disapproval.

Even Jobs changes his mind occasionally, doesn't he? Doesn't he?

Damn.

fred
Sep 18, 2003, 11:41 AM
Don't you just love Apple's customer-friendly attitude ? Apple is always right.... ***** da customer

MacBandit
Sep 18, 2003, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by fred
Don't you just love Apple's customer-friendly attitude ? Apple is always right.... ***** da customer

Sounds like every German company there is also.

In a heavy German accent, "Two buttons you don't neeeeed two buttons."

cosmicsoftceo
Sep 18, 2003, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by fred
Don't you just love Apple's customer-friendly attitude ? Apple is always right.... ***** da customer

And your attitude is lots better... ***** the beginning user, advanced users are always right... Besides, have you done market research to see what the real, average customer thinks? Apple has, you haven't.

I don't care if you tell me that your grandmother can use a 2-button mouse. My dad still doesn't understand what the right mouse button *or* scroll wheel does, and he's been using Windows since version 3.1 at his company.

Don't get me wrong; I use a two-button mouse. I just don't find it that hard to go out and buy a $3 mouse at Staples. Apparently some do.

weev
Sep 18, 2003, 12:03 PM
Am I missing something here.

You can buy 2-button mice for macs. Is that right?

Remember: Apple don't want to forget what Apple is. They have always lost it when they imitate PC's.

Viva le diff, pls go buy a Kensington or whatever if you want wheels and buttons.

Go one button mouse, look, have drunk wine, I love you mouse, don't go changin'. Just promise you'll respect me in the morning.

arn
Sep 18, 2003, 12:11 PM
Yes, you can get a 2 button mouse for $20

arn

fred
Sep 18, 2003, 12:14 PM
Yeah I can buy a $20 POS (piece of *****) but it will be mismatched with my overpriced Apple system which, incidentally, includes Apple's single button mouse which I paid for and don't want

MacBandit
Sep 18, 2003, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by fred
Yeah I can buy a $20 POS (piece of *****) but it will be mismatched with my overpriced Apple system which, incidentally, includes Apple's single button mouse which I paid for and don't want

If you hate it that much go use a PC. It's not at big deal. Also for under $20 you can get a mouse that matches the Mac. Maybe not at your local PC Mart where you probably shop but you can online.

MitjaP
Sep 18, 2003, 12:20 PM
Why are there not four mouse models?

- wireless two button
- wireless one button
- one button
- two button

I'd take the wireless one... I don't really care if it has one or two buttons as long I have my left arm and can press ctrl....

Wonder Boy
Sep 18, 2003, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by Macrumors
He said that he was told, 'There will be a 2 button mouse when a) Jobs leaves Apple"


Hey Steve-O, call me when you need help packing!

I want my APPLE 2+ button mouse!

Frobozz
Sep 18, 2003, 12:23 PM
Rarely do I think anyone could be this brazen about their own personal agenda. Many usability gurus believe their insight and experience is the only solution... and it seems that Jobs has convinced himself that 2 buttons are confusing.

Why?

While I will agree that one button to a computer novice must be an easier concept to grasp, it quickly has dimishing returns. The moment I understand what a single click _is_, I can begin to understand what other clicks are, and what they can do. I have a hard time believing that people in this day and age don't understand a "contextual" click. Again, we're talking about people who have grown up with computers all, or most, of their life.

Jobs has made the cardinal mistake of insisting something stay the same against all public opinion. I can't think of a single person that thinks control-clicking something is more intuitive than clicking a right mouse button. Not these days. Maybe in the days of the classic Mac... but not now. Hell, put a sticker on the right mouse button that says "option" if you're that concerned.

The metaphore of contexual commands is, in my opinion, the most important. But from a mechanical and ergonomic standpoint, which some may argue is even more important, it is easier to have a second mouse button. The only way it helps to have a single mouse button is by dispersing the pressure required for a click to multiple fingers... thus less carpal tunnel and repetitive stress problems. Aside from that, I can't think of a single good reason to stick with the single button mouse.

fred
Sep 18, 2003, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by MacBandit
If you hate it that much go use a PC. It's not at big deal. ......

I have 2 PCs...that's not the point. My point is squarely directed at Apple's lack of resposiveness to overwhelming customer demand. You can bet your bottom dollar that Dell didn't get to be the juggernaut it did by categorically ignoring their customers in such a fashion

Lancetx
Sep 18, 2003, 12:24 PM
Personally, I don't really care too much. While it would be nice for Jobs to wake up and at least give us a choice, it's not that big of a deal. As long as he continues to stick with one button mice only, I'll just continue to use either a Microsoft or Logitech mouse with my Mac and either give away or sell the Apple one that comes with the system.

Frobozz
Sep 18, 2003, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by MitjaP
Why are there not four mouse models?

- wireless two button
- wireless one button
- one button
- two button

I'd take the wireless one... I don't really care if it has one or two buttons as long I have my left arm and can press ctrl....

While I agree with you that more options are better to the informed consumer, Apple touts it's simplicity. There aren't a lot of configuration options in this type of are from Apple because they feel the less options, the more consitency.

For the most part, they are correct. But see my post above... I think Steve-o's potential arguements for a single button mouse are old-school thinking.

MacBandit
Sep 18, 2003, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by fred
I have 2 PCs...that's not the point. My point is squarely directed at Apple's lack of resposiveness to overwhelming customer demand. You can bet your bottom dollar that Dell didn't get to be the juggernaut it did by categorically ignoring their customers in such a fashion

You can't expect a company to meet every customers demand. That's what 3rd party companies are for.

fred
Sep 18, 2003, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by MacBandit
You can't expect a company to meet every customers demand. That's what 3rd party companies are for.

Oh really....it doesn't seem to bother Apple in the least to trample on territory of 3rd party developers or companies when it suits them (i.e. iPhoto, iTunes etc, etc)

Fukui
Sep 18, 2003, 12:32 PM
They could easily make a two button mouse that behaves like one-button if you would want it to be that way...then everyone would be happy.

Not to mention the possibility if they added 3 buttons on the side, one for each expose action...hide all apps - click, show all windows - click...what a missed opportunity. @_@

P.S Does anybody know the number for maytag in hell? I have a large freezer to order.

rog
Sep 18, 2003, 12:35 PM
At least make the mouse and the terrible keyboard optional. Actually I think what's really annoying is in the Apple stores, they only have their own horrible mice plugged in, usually with no pad on a surface that results in poor, and horrible tracking. It's very hard for me to get a sense of how snappy a machine is, because I have to lift the mouse just to get the pointer to where I want it. I get irritated really easily playing with the demo machines because of it. Even with the mouse setting to fastest tracking, it's not fast enough and feels imprecise, which never happened with OS9. Right clicking and scroll wheels make the user experience so much better. Why can't they just make a friggin mouse that looks cool AND is fully functional?

evoluzione
Sep 18, 2003, 12:35 PM
the one button mouse is a big part of apple's history, it's kind of what apple is, easy to use and simplistic. i have little need for a two button mouse, i love my one button variety, maybe this is because i have big hands and i tend to click more on the right side of the button, a two button mouse would be rather uncomfortable for left clicking. and considering i use the right button very rarely i'm more than happy with what we get. if people really want a two button mouse, go ********** buy an after market one, it's no big deal, they are available that match the systems so there's no reason not to. i'm glad steve is sticking to his guns and not releasing a two button mouse.

SpamJunkie
Sep 18, 2003, 12:36 PM
If two button mice were actually confusing then console controllers would be entirely unusable. The ps2 controller has 8 major buttons, 2 minor buttons, a digital direction pad and two analog mini joysticks. Yet controls for games are easy to learn.

What's really lacking in two button mice is an easy to learn presentation. The fact of the matter is that humans can't learn left and right easily. I guarantee if you stick a big blue button on one side with a big white square on it and a big red button with a big white circle on it and reference them as the square button and the curcle button there would be NO usability issues.

So the real question isn't, "why isn't Apple using two button mice?," it's, "why isn't Apple making two button mice usable?"

MacBandit
Sep 18, 2003, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by fred
Oh really....it doesn't seem to bother Apple in the least to trample on territory of 3rd party developers or companies when it suits them (i.e. iPhoto, iTunes etc, etc)

Both of your examples are pieces of software that had poor or no real presence on the Mac. There are some examples of Apple competing with 3rd party software developers but it could be said that they saw room to improve on the current products. With the mouse where is the room to improve? There are about 300 mice in the world that are perfect for one person or another and there are at least 40 of those that were made to match the Mac.

fred
Sep 18, 2003, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by evoluzione
the one button mouse is a big part of apple's history, it's kind of what apple is, easy to use and simplistic. i

LOL...simplistic is DEFINITELY the right term ...although probably not the one you wanted to use :)

It seems that Apple is still displaying the NIH (not invented here) syndrome which was so prevalent in the late 80s and early and mid 90s.... heck Microsoft is set to soon introduce a mouse that scrolls horizontally.... can you spell STONE AGE

SilentPanda
Sep 18, 2003, 12:45 PM
http://www.macmice.com/mouse_1.html

$29.99.

It's not wireless but it'll do the trick for the people that want the Apple look and feel...

My dad just bought his first Mac (a G5... and... and... I don't live at home!) and asked me why they don't have two button mice... I asked him how often mom or the grandparents use their second mouse button... he replied... "good point".

Your "standard" home user uses the computer for waste of time games (solitaire and the like), word processing, and the internet. Non of those need a two-button mouse... scroll wheel? questionable... I think if Apple did offer multi button mice it would make the software developers try to require one...

My only thing is that if you don't want the 1 button mouse you should be able to take it off your order... I suppose you can always hock it on eBay but I'd rather not but it in the first place.

penguin
Sep 18, 2003, 12:48 PM
Hello Apple here is the solution.
How about you just use a trackpad surface on top of the current apple mouse.

By default this would be a one button mouse for the newbies.
Power users or Windows switchers could use a control panel to activate the trackpad which would sense what half of the mouse you click on. It get's better. You could also use the trackpad as a scroll wheel or jog dial too. Or even program it to 4 or 40 buttons.

While your at it why don't you just make a wireless mouse that recharges via a USB cable. Then you could use it either way.

Ta Da. One mouse for power/newbie & wireless wired users.

PS> I got this idea after I installed Sidetrack on my laptop. Awesome.
http://www.ragingmenace.com/software/sidetrack/index.html

DamnDJ
Sep 18, 2003, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by evoluzione
the one button mouse is a big part of apple's history, it's kind of what apple is, easy to use and simplistic.

So was the happy-mac boot-up icon, but that's gone too. :(

Rainbow colored Apple menu?

*moof*?

fred
Sep 18, 2003, 12:52 PM
Steve Jobs = modern day Henry Ford

SJ --- You can order any mouse so long as it has only one button

HF -- You can have the Model T in any color so long as it's black

DGFan
Sep 18, 2003, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by Frobozz
I have a hard time believing that people in this day and age don't understand a "contextual" click. Again, we're talking about people who have grown up with computers all, or most, of their life.


Just because you can't understand it doesn't make it false. And do you think everyone in the country is under 30? I started using a computer with a mouse in college. And I am not old.

Originally posted by Frobozz
Jobs has made the cardinal mistake of insisting something stay the same against all public opinion. I can't think of a single person that thinks control-clicking something is more intuitive than clicking a right mouse button. Not these days. Maybe in the days of the classic Mac... but not now. Hell, put a sticker on the right mouse button that says "option" if you're that concerned.


"All public opinion" apparently means (to you), "everyone smart enough and involved enough in the Macintosh community to be present at online computer discussions."

Originally posted by Frobozz
The metaphore of contexual commands is, in my opinion, the most important. But from a mechanical and ergonomic standpoint, which some may argue is even more important, it is easier to have a second mouse button. The only way it helps to have a single mouse button is by dispersing the pressure required for a click to multiple fingers... thus less carpal tunnel and repetitive stress problems. Aside from that, I can't think of a single good reason to stick with the single button mouse.

Lots and lots of people don't use contextual menus and can't really grasp the concept. And they certainly can't grasp multiple buttons. These are people who are afraid of their VCR's but really want to use a computer anyway because of the benefits it brings. There are good reasons. Just because you don't personally approve of them does not negate their existence.

simX
Sep 18, 2003, 01:03 PM
Hm. Let's see. Steve Jobs founds Apple. Steve Jobs gets ousted. Steve Jobs founds NeXT. NEXT MAKES COMPUTER WITH A MOUSE THAT HAS TWO BUTTONS. Steve Jobs returns to Apple. Apple doesn't make two button mice. Idiotic Apple users who think for some reason that Apple needs to make two-button mice get mad at... Steve Jobs.

Talk about a failure to put two and two together. :rolleyes:

Source: http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=277

(Oh, and if you're going to make the argument that Apple "tramples" third-party manufacturers, the only reasonable example you can use is with Sherlock 3 and Watson. There's a *REASON* why iTunes is so much more popular than Audion. There's a *REASON* why iPhoto is so much more popular than something like Adobe PhotoDeluxe. And no, it's not because they're bundled with the computer. It's because they're better. OMG WHAT A CONCEPT! :rolleyes: )

MOM
Sep 18, 2003, 01:04 PM
This is so not an issue.

One, I agree with the one button mouse.

Two, if you don't agree with me then there is a simple cheap option for you availbe from 3rd part vendors.

Its that simple.

Flowbee
Sep 18, 2003, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by fred
My point is squarely directed at Apple's lack of resposiveness to overwhelming customer demand.

Can you post a link to the study or poll that shows 'overwhelming customer demand' for Apple to offer a 2-button mouse? I realize people are very passionate on these (and other) Mac sites, but let's face it, we're not the 'typical' Apple customer.

Rustus Maximus
Sep 18, 2003, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by MitjaP
Why are there not four mouse models?

- wireless two button
- wireless one button
- one button
- two button

I'd take the wireless one... I don't really care if it has one or two buttons as long I have my left arm and can press ctrl....

Hmmmm...to heck with four models...how about FOUR BUTTONS?? Huh? Huuuuh?

ONE BIG SUPER MOUSE! Yeaaahh!!

We'll include a built-in joystick and steering wheel for all those gamers whose needs aren't met by the standard one button Apple mouse. Oh, and let's not forget about the scroll wheel, we'll jam that inbetween buttons 1 and 2. Plus we'll make it both wireless annndddd wired. With a retractable cord! Yeah! But what about those people who want to use a stylus or touchpad instead? Hmmmmm...well, we'll stick the stylus on the right side and put the touchpad under the palm area and...

fred
Sep 18, 2003, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Flowbee
Can you post a link to the study or poll that shows 'overwhelming customer demand' for Apple to offer a 2-button mouse? I realize people are very passionate on these (and other) Mac sites, but let's face it, we're not the 'typical' Apple customer.

No I can't, but as you mention you can guage the passion of many, many posters on online forums (here, MacCentral, Slashdot etc) of their strong desire to have a multiple button (perhaps even scrolling) Apple-branded mouse. I challenge you or anyone else to start an online petition and I'm certain the response will be overwhelming. We live in a capitalist economy and Apple's goal should be to capitalize on demand. Sure you can produce a one button mouse but why make people PAY for a one button mouse with a system purchase and then have to buy another kludge-like device from a 3rd party manufacturer. This is called being insensitive to customer needs in my book.

arn
Sep 18, 2003, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by fred
No I can't, but as you mention you can guage the passion of many, many posters on online forums (here, MacCentral, Slashdot etc) of their strong desire to have a multiple button (perhaps even scrolling) Apple-branded mouse. I challenge you or anyone else to start an online petition and I'm certain the response will be overwhelming.

This is a very biased sampling though.

I guarentee that 90+% of people in the world don't know the difference between RAM and Hard Drive storage.

Imagine going to a grocery store and asking random people if they want Apple to ship a two button mouse, and I bet you get a lot of blank stares.

arn

fred
Sep 18, 2003, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by arn
This is a very biased sampling though.

I guarentee that 90+% of people in the world don't know the difference between RAM and Hard Drive storage.

Remember, we are living in a very skewed world here.

Imagine going to a grocery store and asking random people if they want Apple to ship a two button mouse, and I bet you get a lot of blank stares.

arn

Software Companies regularly ask potential customers to submit their manifestations of interest for a mac version of software (i.e. Autocad) which they are contemplating to port to the Mac....why couldn't Apple set up a similar feedback e mail but for mice...

arn
Sep 18, 2003, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by fred
Software Companies regularly ask potential customers to submit their manifestations of interest for a mac version of software (i.e. Autocad) which they are contemplating to port to the Mac....why couldn't Apple set up a similar feedback e mail but for mice...

Apple probably has their own reasons not to make a 2 button mouse. Whether it's for simplicity or Steve Jobs' will... who knows.

arn

Doctor Q
Sep 18, 2003, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by arn
I guarentee that 90+% of people in the world don't know the difference between RAM and Hard Drive storage.

Imagine going to a grocery store and asking random people if they want Apple to ship a two button mouse, and I bet you get a lot of blank stares.Which is why it is odd that computer ads, including Apple's print-magazine ads, are full of buzzwords that make sense to techies but not to most people reading the ads. We are worrying about 801.11g vs. 801.11b and how important Level 3 cache is, while people are buying computers because they like the color of the case or because they like the sound of the words "Airport Extreme".

Two questions on the mouse issue:

(1) When Steve says "over my dead body", is it based on gut instinct as it sounds or has there been any real market research by Apple or anyone else?

(2) Wouldn't everyone be happy if Apple let you delete the mouse from a custom order and order a third-party mouse instead? Novices would take the default and prosumers and anyone else who wanted a two-button/scrollwheel mouse could have it instead, without paying for the Apple mouse. Apple could still claim "simplicity" and everyone would have the mouse features they wanted. It sounds so simple, but they aren't doing it. What am I missing?

reedm007
Sep 18, 2003, 02:20 PM
First off, arn, thanks for always being a voice of reason on here. It's amazing how passionate people get both ways...

This topic has been argued over and over again. I don't think this is Steve Jobs'doing at all -- as was already posted on this board, NeXT DID use multi-button mice. I'd seriously doubt that Steve is personally opposed to them, which doesn't give much credibility to this (albeit page 2) article posting.

At any rate, as a HCI major, I feel strongly for the argument of a one-button mouse by default, although I'd certainly not be against differemt options. Let's look at this from a UI perspective, and not from a "my grandma can't use 2 buttons":

2 BUTTON MICE LEAD TO BAD UI DESIGN:
This is inherent in windows software design. They assume all users will have 2 button mice, so you often have commands in contextual menus that don't exist elsewhere. This is simply a horrible idea. I know Apple's UI Guidelines say not to do this, but since when have all companies followed all of Apple's UI guidelines? Fact is, if they know people will have 2 button mice, they'll get lazy and we'll end up with programs using contextual menus instead of offering better UI techniques.

Now that argument applies only to saying that Apple shouldn't stop selling one-button mice, but doesn't address the point that Apple could offer an option on mice. Now here's the problem with that:

PROBLEMS WITH OFFERING THE OPTION:

Apple can either:

1. Give you a 1-button mouse with the computer, but offer a 2-button for sale seperately.

2. Let you choose online in BTO configurations.

3. Allow you to "delete" the mouse from your order.


Problem with option 1: People will be pissed that they have to fork over extra money to Apple for a second mouse, and this offers few advantages to APple over allowing you to choose a 3rd party mouse.

Problem with option 2: Inventory. It would be virtually impossible for retail stores (including Apple authorized resllers AND Apple Stores) to know what percentage of users will buy each. This would make an inventory nightmare, so APple could choose to only sell them as BTO on the online Apple STore. This will infuriate resellers, as well as cost Apple extra money, which is inherent with every BTO order. I'd rather save the extra $50 it might cost Apple and buy a 3rd party mouse.

Problem with option 3: Much like the BTO issue of problem 2, since the mouse is shipped *with* the computer, you still suffer from reseller issues as well as added cost for Apple to *remove* the mouse from your custom order. Apple could just start shipping all units without mice and require and extra purchase, but you KNOW people would complain about how Macs don't even ship with mice.

Basically, my point is, I don't see a good solution here. Providing the option, in theory, is a good ideam but, as Apple found with multi-colored iMacs, the inventory maintenance and guessing on demand is a nightmare. This would make the point for either shipping all of one kind of mouse (either all one-button or all two-button) and, as I pointed out above, ut seems to make sense, froim a UI standpoint, to choose 1-button, and allow consumers the option of purchasing their own 2-button mouse.

That said, Apple could always come up with some ingenious method of combining one and two-button mice into one individual mouse with a software setting of some kind... We'll just have to wait6 and see on that, but I don't think it's anything worth threatening to move to PC or arguing that people won't switch to Mac because of the one-button mouse. I think, if you did some researcch, you'd find that, despite some people using that as an excuse, that isn't the real reason they're not buying a Mac.

bentmywookie
Sep 18, 2003, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by Doctor Q
(2) Wouldn't everyone be happy if Apple let you delete the mouse from a custom order and order a third-party mouse instead? Novices would take the default and prosumers and anyone else who wanted a two-button/scrollwheel mouse could have it instead, without paying for the Apple mouse. Apple could still claim "simplicity" and everyone would have the mouse features they wanted. It sounds so simple, but they aren't doing it. What am I missing?

I personally think this would be a great solution for now.

reedm007
Sep 18, 2003, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by bentmywookie
I personally think this would be a great solution for now.

Until you read my post, just above yours... ;)

Larshart
Sep 18, 2003, 02:38 PM
Why would I want to give up using both hands and a sexy Apple mouse to utilize contextual menus, as opposed to using an ugly mouse that will do the same with just one hand.

Nicky G
Sep 18, 2003, 02:39 PM
Logitech wheel mouse optical -- two buttons, plus clickable scroll wheel. Very nice mouse, I own several. $20 or so retail. Get over it already, people.

fred
Sep 18, 2003, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by Nicky G
Logitech wheel mouse optical -- two buttons, plus clickable scroll wheel. Very nice mouse, I own several. $20 or so retail. Get over it already, people.

Uhhh excuse me....Apple should get over it...we pay the bucks remember ?


I hate posts that somehow insinuate that we the paying customers are at fault or too finicky.....repeat after me: THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT !!!

Choice is good...absence of choice is bad...what's so hard about that

sonofslim
Sep 18, 2003, 02:55 PM
i posted this under another thread, before i saw this one. (so i'll just repeat myself here.)

this was posted today over at As the Apple Turns (http://www.appleturns.com):

First and foremost, the Macintosh platform is still about simplicity-- simplicity and accessibility. Sure, things have gotten more complex over the years, largely out of necessity, but the drive to manage complexity, allow it only when necessary, and shield the user from it as much as possible is still a palpable vibe emanating from One Infinite Loop. And while you may find two mouse buttons to be a perfectly straightforward interface to navigate, we can assure you that a significant chunk of the population does not, Windows's 95% market share notwithstanding. Let us remind you that you also apparently find a net-based Mac-centric soap opera entertaining, which means you are not normal. (In so many ways.)
...
It's almost certainly ideal when it comes to maintaining a consistent and accessible interface across third-party applications for the platform. Have you ever noticed the difference in the interfaces of the average Windows software and the average Mac software? We've found Mac software to be far more predictable, and we're convinced that part of that is due to the enforced simplicity of the single-button mouse. By requiring developers to design their interfaces for one button, Apple ensures that they don't just bury half of the software's crucial functions in poorly-organized middle- and right-click contextual menus.


there's much more to it, and i suggest you go and check it out. he makes some really good points, in my opinion.

i, for one, must have my two buttons and scroll wheel and bling-bling 17mm rims on my tricked out drop-top mouse, but i can't argue with the 1-button logic after reading this.

DGFan
Sep 18, 2003, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by fred

Choice is good...absence of choice is bad...what's so hard about that

Not always true. Too many choices can be confusing. Even a couple choices can be daunting for people who aren't equipped to answer the question.

Remember the fiasco of the mid-90's for Apple? Want more HD space? It's a totally different model!!

fred
Sep 18, 2003, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by DGFan
Not always true. Too many choices can be confusing. Even a couple choices can be daunting for people who aren't equipped to answer the question.

Remember the fiasco of the mid-90's for Apple? Want more HD space? It's a totally different model!!

I can't believe that the vast majority of people who are against 2 btton Apple-branded mice seem to think that the majority of Apple's customers are total morons and can't adapt.....

Marble
Sep 18, 2003, 03:04 PM
After having just watched a poor professor struggle in front of his class with the Wintel box and its two-button mouse (he kept clicking the right button accidentally, and bringing up menus that confused him even more), I am fairly comfortable that Apple has a simple way of doing things, with more complex options open to everyone. Not all Mac users are as quick to learn and adapt as us youths, or as demanding as you professional computer users.
I have never needed two buttons for my work, though I have found them to be convenient, they are certainly not essential. If you want 120GBs of space, buy a 120GB hard drive. If you want a two-button mouse, buy a two-buttom mouse. For goodness sake, they're both just frivolty to the beginning user.

fred
Sep 18, 2003, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by Marble
After having just watched a poor professor struggle in front of his class with the Wintel box and its two-button mouse (he kept clicking the right button accidentally, and bringing up menus that confused him even more), I am fairly comfortable that Apple has a simple way of doing things, with more complex options open to everyone. Not all Mac users are as quick to learn and adapt as us youths, or as demanding as you professional computer users.
I have never needed two buttons for my work, though I have found them to be convenient, they are certainly not essential. If you want 120GBs of space, buy a 120GB hard drive. If you want a two-button mouse, buy a two-buttom mouse. For goodness sake, they're both just frivolty to the beginning user.

Let me understand your logic....Apple should cater to the lowest common denominator (beginners) and force people to pay for one button mice on even pro systems ? Brilliant

phasornc
Sep 18, 2003, 03:09 PM
I can't believe anyone is sticking up for Apple on this one.

Apple spends all this money on these beautiful keyboards and mice that match the computer, only to make them useless by excluding the right button and the scroll wheel/button. Smart browsers like Mozilla are now middle button smart. The revolution is coming. Apple missed the boat with right button, now they are missing the boat with the middle button.

My company just bought 20 new Macs and now we have to spend and extra $400 on 2 button mice, that look like ****e. All I want is the choice to be able to get a 3 button wheel mouse that matches my computer. Is that too much to ask???? No, it isn't. Part of the reason we like Mac is because of the good looks, I can't believe so many people are saying "just go out and buy a $20 mouse" Form is only as good as function. And if my mom, the worlds most incompetent computer user (she still doesn't understand files and folders) loves the scroll wheel, then everyone can easily understand and use the scroll we. Steve is wrong and I hope No one buys that stupid wireless mouse. For gods sake apple is so protective of their one button mouse you'd almost think the invented it. In fact, I bet Steve Jobs really does think he invented it.

Doctor Q
Sep 18, 2003, 03:10 PM
Thanks, reedm007. I understand the inventory issue, but this doesn't stop Apple from letting you delete a modem, for example, from a custom order. I doubt the brick and mortar stores stock Power Macs with and without modems for the reasons you describe. Like modems, mice are cheap, but some people will complain about paying for them if they don't want them. I don't see why letting you custom order a different mouse online wouldn't be just as easy as letting you include or exclude the modem.

FlamDrag
Sep 18, 2003, 03:17 PM
I'd personally rather see an Apple branded sort of Tablet (not computer, but like a WACOM tablet).

Granted, WACOM makes very nice products from my experience, but an Apple version would be nice.

Mice are painful regardless of the number of buttons.

fred
Sep 18, 2003, 03:20 PM
"I just want to go to third-world countries and bathe their children. I'm just a mercenary."


LMAO .... precious

Sonofhaig
Sep 18, 2003, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by weev
Am I missing something here.

You can buy 2-button mice for macs. Is that right?

Remember: Apple don't want to forget what Apple is. They have always lost it when they imitate PC's.

Viva le diff, pls go buy a Kensington or whatever if you want wheels and buttons.

Go one button mouse, look, have drunk wine, I love you mouse, don't go changin'. Just promise you'll respect me in the morning.

Besides, how difficult is it to hold down the control key? It's the same thing? No?

Physiognome
Sep 18, 2003, 03:23 PM
Two button mice are for stupid beginners. I want three button mice so I can copy and paste with one hand. :)

MUrhino
Sep 18, 2003, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by cosmicsoftceo
My dad still doesn't understand what the right mouse button *or* scroll wheel does, and he's been using Windows since version 3.1 at his company.


Then your dad's not to quick upstairs. If he ever pressed the right mouse button he would see what it does, and the scroll wheel.....c'mon.

MacBandit
Sep 18, 2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by fred
Let me understand your logic....Apple should cater to the lowest common denominator (beginners) and force people to pay for one button mice on even pro systems ? Brilliant

Yes, because the professional or even the avid user is going to have their own concept of what they need in a mouse or an input device. Not one mouse can satisfy all these people so it's better that Apple supply the simplest form and allow the other people choose what they want from the vast selection of 3rd party mice and input devices.

MacBandit
Sep 18, 2003, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by Physiognome
Two button mice are for stupid beginners. I want three button mice so I can copy and paste with one hand. :)

I have the Kensington StudioPro. It has 3 buttons and a scroll pad. The two outside buttons can be programmed to function as a 4th button if pressed simultaneously and the scroll pad can be configured so a tap at the top would be a 5th button and a tap at the bottom a 6th button and still retain the scrolling function.

I rarely use more then the two buttons and the scroll pad except when playing a game.

bcsimac
Sep 18, 2003, 03:50 PM
Well right now I would love to have a one button Apple mouse instead of a Kensington mouse where one of the buttons doesn't work and I have to wait at least 7 days before Kensington gets me a replacement mouse......I don't know about you.....but I would love to have that one button Apple mouse....too bad my old one button Apple mouse got destroyed by my wife....was my fiancee' at the time....LOL

Beyond that....I don't care if its one button or more buttons. I just use the mouse.....it is like people who complain about track pads.....i happen to like track pads.

Makosuke
Sep 18, 2003, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by SpamJunkie
So the real question isn't, "why isn't Apple using two button mice?," it's, "why isn't Apple making two button mice usable?"
Ooh, now there's a good comment.

If you ask me, though, I don't think it's that big of an issue. I personally don't have a problem with a one-button mouse, but I like multi-button mice and have an 8-button scrollwheel mouse at home. On the other hand, I know plenty of users who don't want a 2 button mouse; my wife prefers the single button Apple mouse. And, I've seen begining users baffled by more than one button. I fully support Apple's of a one-button mouse around for those folks, and I hope they never change that--it's a real point of differentiation (though a one-button scroll wheel might be cool).

On the other hand, I don't think it'd kill Apple to make an optional multi-button mouse available as an option for pro users; just like they now make a wired and wireless keyboard and mouse, but you get the choice depending on which you prefer (and if you're willing to pay the extra money for a wireless one).

Then again, you can get a decent 2-button mouse for $15 and a really nice one for $50, so I just don't see the big issue. Sell the pill one if you hate it that much--you can get at least $20 for the thing on eBay.

Steven1621
Sep 18, 2003, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by MacBandit
If you hate it that much go use a PC. It's not at big deal. Also for under $20 you can get a mouse that matches the Mac. Maybe not at your local PC Mart where you probably shop but you can online.

amen, bro

Pablo
Sep 18, 2003, 04:11 PM
My problem with the 1 button bluetooth mouse:

If I want a two button + scrollwheel bluetooth mouse for my 17" AlBook, guess who I have to buy it from?

arn
Sep 18, 2003, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by MUrhino
Then your dad's not to quick upstairs. If he ever pressed the right mouse button he would see what it does, and the scroll wheel.....c'mon.

Look, as hard as it is to comprehend... this is how it is...

Most people don't know how these thing work. If you've ever seen anyone who doesn't know how to use a computer... it's frustratingly painful to watch. You can insult them, but it doesn't make them disappear.

arn

sedarby
Sep 18, 2003, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by Doctor Q
Which is why it is odd that computer ads, including Apple's print-magazine ads, are full of buzzwords that make sense to techies but not to most people reading the ads. We are worrying about 801.11g vs. 801.11b and how important Level 3 cache is, while people are buying computers because they like the color of the case or because they like the sound of the words "Airport Extreme".

Two questions on the mouse issue:

(1) When Steve says "over my dead body", is it based on gut instinct as it sounds or has there been any real market research by Apple or anyone else?

(2) Wouldn't everyone be happy if Apple let you delete the mouse from a custom order and order a third-party mouse instead? Novices would take the default and prosumers and anyone else who wanted a two-button/scrollwheel mouse could have it instead, without paying for the Apple mouse. Apple could still claim "simplicity" and everyone would have the mouse features they wanted. It sounds so simple, but they aren't doing it. What am I missing?

There was a time when Macs didn't come with a keyboard or mice. You should have heard the screaming then. Be glad they ship a keyboard or mouse at all and go buy what you want.

Personally I use a USB mouse and keyboard that came with the Linux kit for my PS2. The mouse is 2 button with a scroll wheel which is a joy to use. However, I believe Apple probably has a good reason to stay with the one button mouse. For one thing, it makes the 3rd party software developers keep the interface simple since everyone won't have 2 buttons on their mouse.

MacBandit
Sep 18, 2003, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by Pablo
My problem with the 1 button bluetooth mouse:

If I want a two button + scrollwheel bluetooth mouse for my 17" AlBook, guess who I have to buy it from?

Okay I'll guess. Logitech?

http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm?page=products/details&CRID=3&CONTENTID=7110&countryid=19&languageid=1

DeusOmnis
Sep 18, 2003, 04:27 PM
Right now i have a 5 button mouse (microsoft intellimouse explorer) but i'd rather have that 7 button mouse that came out a little while ago....

Apple, give me a 7 button mouse! THEN you wont be immitating PC's!!!!!

DeusOmnis
Sep 18, 2003, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by MacBandit
Okay I'll guess. Logitech?

http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm?page=products/details&CRID=3&CONTENTID=7110&countryid=19&languageid=1


Wait wait wait... lol, this one doesnt support macintosh... LMAO. It's like the only one of thiers that doesnt.

MacBandit
Sep 18, 2003, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by DeusOmnis
Wait wait wait... lol, this one doesnt support macintosh... LMAO. It's like the only one of thiers that doesnt.

Bah, I bet it would work.

Well okay fine. How about a Belkin.

http://web.belkin.com/presspage/Releases/08_12_03opticalMouse.html

Awimoway
Sep 18, 2003, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by fred
I hate posts that somehow insinuate that we the paying customers are at fault or too finicky.....repeat after me: THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT !!!

You, sir, are to be applauded. (http://www.a1freesoundeffects.com/applausesmall.wav)

That's what this is all about.

When Apple puts only one-button mice on display next to their computers, when that is all they offer when you buy, it sends a message that they will decide what's best for you.

When it's already scary for a lot of people to switch to a new platform, do you think it's a good idea to make them feel even less in control? One-button mice are always one of the first complaints I hear from Windows users. I don't have the time or the means to tell all of them they can buy their own multi-button mice, and besides, why should anyone have to when they are already buying a computer that costs two to three times what a comparable Wintel offers?

gopy
Sep 18, 2003, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by Frobozz
Jobs has made the cardinal mistake of insisting something stay the same against all public opinion. I can't think of a single person that thinks control-clicking something is more intuitive than clicking a right mouse button.

Right, and Command-clicking a link obviously opens a new tab/window in browsers, Option-dragging obviously copies a file in the Finder, while Command-dragging will move a file across hard drives (not copying), and Command-Option-dragging makes an alias.
I still don't understand why this is an issue. All it does is cut down mousing mistakes. Plus, how can you have a two-buttoned mouse when the whole mouse acts as a single button? Not that they couldn't redesign it, but there is a reason why PC mice are fugly. Alternatively, Apple could design the mouse and farm out production, like its deal w/Harmon Karndon (sp?). But, anyway, would you split the Return key for the differing UNIX and MacOS functions? And a third to emulate Option-L to continue an AppleScript line? And the Space Bar-- which is a perfect analogy, because since you hit it so often, they make it big.

And, for those who've been complaining that the "customer is always right," that's very untrue: in 1980 most customers wouldn't think that a GUI would be a good thing, and in 1972, most people saw computers as things only university profs and students could use/know how to use/have a use for a computer. And why would customers want non-beige PCs?

tom

mvc
Sep 18, 2003, 05:33 PM
Well, ideally, Apple would just make a Two Button/Scroll wheel "pro" mouse an optional alternative extra, so that we could

(a) Buy only the mouse we want.

(b) Buy a mouse that matches our beautiful computer.

(c) Not confuse new users unnecessarily with multiple buttons.

(d) Placate switching windows users more easily.

(e) Give ALL our money to Apple instead of companies like Logitech or <shudder> Microsoft </shudder>

beelzeben
Sep 18, 2003, 06:10 PM
For all the ranting and raving going on, at the end of the day I just feel sorry for apple.

They had such an opportunity to make a product that a lot of people would actually want to buy.

How many people will honestly be willing to stump up $70 solely for the premium of not having a wire to worry about? It strikes me as insanity...

I realise this is a generalisation, but who tends to buy new mice... techy people who want more functionality. It's not like mice break down that often and there's a pent up demand for one button replacements.

This isn't a rant at anyone here at all, I'm just p*ssed off I can't have a nice apple mouse that matches my system
;)

Jeff Harrell
Sep 18, 2003, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by mvc
Buy only the mouse we want.

Go buy a new Mac, non-laptop variety. Notice that the mouse is bundled inside the computer box, right by the keyboard.

If Apple wanted to offer two separate mouse options, they'd have to either (1) continue bundling the standard mouse with the computer and replace it with the "pro" mouse as part of a build-to-order configuration, or (2) package both the standard and "pro" mice separately. Both of these would introduce significant logistics problems for Apple. Not insurmountable problems, of course, but they'd have to be solved, and solving them wouldn't be free.

The third option is the one you specifically don't want to hear about: continue to bundle the standard mouse, but offer an Apple-branded "pro" mouse as a peripheral. Not a cheap peripheral, either; I'd estimate that Apple would have to sell it for at least $79 to keep it from being a money-loser for them, and $99 wouldn't be out of the question. They just wouldn't be doing the kind of volume business to justify selling a mouse for $19.99.

Still excited about the idea of an Apple mouse?

(Incidentally, I can't remember the last time such an incredibly stupid issue captured so much attention. Use the bloody Apple mouse. Panther has effectively deprecated the contextual menu, anyway. If you're using a piece of software like Maya that requires a special mouse, go buy it and quit complaining.)

davidc2182
Sep 18, 2003, 06:14 PM
What about the Apple Patent for a new mouse that can scroll horizontally and vertically without a traditional scroll wheel, doesnt that sound and awfully lot like the new Microsoft mouse coming out? any comments on this please??!!

LegionCSUF
Sep 18, 2003, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by reedm007
2 BUTTON MICE LEAD TO BAD UI DESIGN:
This is inherent in windows software design. They assume all users will have 2 button mice, so you often have commands in contextual menus that don't exist elsewhere.


This is only correct to an extent.

1) This is not true of all applications. Not offering a feature on a computer because it could be used for bad UI design would remove a lot of features from a computer.

2) Some menu options exist necessarily in the contextual menus. Show me where in Safari is a "download link to disk" or "open link in new tab" menu outside of the ctrl+click menu. Then, assume one exists in the main program menus, and show me how you would point at the link AND navigate the application menus at the same time.

Yes, we can Option+click to perform the "open link in new tab" function. That's even worse. There's NO visual input to guide you to the function - only a memorized mouse/keyboard combination.

1. Give you a 1-button mouse with the computer, but offer a 2-button for sale seperately.

Problem with option 1: People will be pissed that they have to fork over extra money to Apple for a second mouse, and this offers few advantages to APple over allowing you to choose a 3rd party mouse.

This is pretty weak. The OPTION to buy the 2nd mouse would "piss" these users off less than not having the option at all. Just because a scenario is perfect does not mean that it is not better than the current one.


2. Let you choose online in BTO configurations.

Problem with option 2: Inventory. It would be virtually impossible for retail stores (including Apple authorized resllers AND Apple Stores) to know what percentage of users will buy each.

........ what??

By your logic, Apple should never release new products, ever. It's not always easy to gauge what demand for a new product will be. That's still no argument against releasing it and finding out.


3. Allow you to "delete" the mouse from your order.

Problem with option 3: Much like the BTO issue of problem 2, since the mouse is shipped *with* the computer, you still suffer from reseller issues as well as added cost for Apple to *remove* the mouse from your custom order.

They seem to manage fine doing every other BTO option. This never seemed to stop them from offering new BTO options either. Should Apple have not added Airport/Extreme to the BTO options for the same reason? Is it somehow more expensive to REMOVE something from the computer box than it is to ADD an item to the system itself?

Apple could just start shipping all units without mice and require and extra purchase, but you KNOW people would complain about how Macs don't even ship with mice.

Well this is true. Shipping a computer without a component needed for its operation (exception: displays) is a bad idea.

Basically, my point is, I don't see a good solution here.

None of your options had any sort of deal-breaking failure. How do these guys handle the "inventory nightmare" of multiple entries in the iBook and PowerBook line? What about different iPods?

Obvious answer: make replacing the mouse a BTO option. If you can add rather inexpensive things like a Bluetooth module to the physical device itself, you can certainly take a damn 1-button mouse out of a box and throw a 2-button one in.

Also, make a conservative number of 2-button mice available to retailers. Gauge it like you would any other product that people may or may not run out and buy (iSight, etc). Just like ANY OTHER PRODUCT, you make the initial release in fairly low numbers, gauge the demand, and make each next shipment accordingly.

Gawd, if companies were as pathetically helpless as you make Apple out to be, industry would grind to a halt.

Yet ironically enough, I don't think this is even an issue for desktop machines. It's not that freakin' hard to go buy a USB mouse with as many buttons as you'd like, and plug it into the machine. I don't own a desktop Mac yet, but when I do, I'll be plugging a USB optical IntelliMouse into it. Problem freaking solved. If you have to have one that "looks" like the computer, there are some out there as well. If your biggest computer problem is that your mouse doesn't have an Apple logo on it, well......

Where I find the 2-button argument to matter is laptop touchpads. There, you don't have the choice, and yet, there also, your arguments would actually hold water (inventory of 1-button vs. 2-button LAPTOPS would not be fun for anyone, and some sort of BTO option would be pricey).

MacBandit
Sep 18, 2003, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by davidc2182
What about the Apple Patent for a new mouse that can scroll horizontally and vertically without a traditional scroll wheel, doesnt that sound and awfully lot like the new Microsoft mouse coming out? any comments on this please??!!

There are other mice on the market that do this. I've seen several with tiny track ball where the scroll wheel would be. Allowing page movement in any direction.

Bunzi2k4
Sep 18, 2003, 06:54 PM
thats pretty cool... but o well i like my logitech basic 2 button scroll wheel mouse. perfect for games..... sorta

simX
Sep 18, 2003, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by LegionCSUF
2) Some menu options exist necessarily in the contextual menus. Show me where in Safari is a "download link to disk" or "open link in new tab" menu outside of the ctrl+click menu. Then, assume one exists in the main program menus, and show me how you would point at the link AND navigate the application menus at the same time.

Sure, I'll show you. Click the link. It usually downloads if it's something you want to download. If not, go to File --> Save As... after clicking the link. See? It's in there without using a contextual menu. Or, you can just option-click on a link.

For the "open link in new tab", that's easy. Just command-click on the link. I've been doing that ever since Safari came out (with my one-button mouse, hint hint hint). And no, there actually IS visual input. Turn on the status bar (if you haven't already), and hover over a link with the command key held down. It says "Open 'HTTP_address_here' in a new tab". It tells you EXACTLY what is going to happen. Try that with other key combos (option, option-command): the status bar always shows you what is going to take place.

Yes, contextual menus are very convenient, which is why Apple added them back in Mac OS 8 and has retained them in Mac OS X. But the fact remains that many users don't use contextual menus, so there should ALWAYS be some other way to access the functions. Not doing so is bad design of a program. That doesn't mean that these alternatives are more convenient than the contextual menu -- they're probably not. But they need to exist.

While your counterpoints to the other arguments may be valid, what you say here doesn't hold water at all. Having two-button mice standard WILL degrade the user experience on the Mac, and Apple knows this. This is the single most important reason why Apple should never ship a multi-button mouse standard on a Mac (and hopefully they never will).

Powerbook G5
Sep 18, 2003, 07:19 PM
Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but according to Dante's hell, it is indeed frozen over...so does that mean 2 button mice (or mouses) are coming? :)

On a similar note, you can get a multi-button mouse *anywhere* for *any* price range, so I don't see why so many people get so up in arms about it. Just go out and invest in a nice Logitech or Kensington mouse. There are some pretty nice ones out there to choose from.

Docrjm
Sep 18, 2003, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by fred
Uhhh excuse me....Apple should get over it...we pay the bucks remember ?


I hate posts that somehow insinuate that we the paying customers are at fault or too finicky.....repeat after me: THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT !!!

Choice is good...absence of choice is bad...what's so hard about that
There is choice. Apple chooses to provide a single button mouse, if yuo want a diff mouse there are choices avilable, from a multitude of vendors.
What if Apple stated that the Keyboard and mouse were complementary items, provided foc with every desktop system?
Would you feel better??

Bunzi2k4
Sep 18, 2003, 08:03 PM
isn't there a city somewhere in the u.s called hell? i think sometime in the spring it started to snow does that count?

ibjoshua
Sep 18, 2003, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by Macrumors
a) Jobs leaves Apple or b) when hell freezes over

LOL!!

Oh well, I'm perfectly happy with my Microsoft [GASP!!!] Wheel Mouse Optical.

i_b_joshua

michael666
Sep 18, 2003, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by Macrumors
Reader mail: "There will be a 2 button mouse when a) Jobs leaves Apple or b) when hell freezes over.

Aaah, this is the best news from Apple I heard in a long time. It's satisfying to know that the people at Apple have the same ideals as me (at least concerning mouse buttons) :rolleyes:

fred
Sep 18, 2003, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by doc_mac
There is choice. Apple chooses to provide a single button mouse, if yuo want a diff mouse there are choices avilable, from a multitude of vendors.
What if Apple stated that the Keyboard and mouse were complementary items, provided foc with every desktop system?
Would you feel better??

On my dime......if I didn't have to pay for the damn contraption I wouldn't mind....I don't want it so I shouldn't have to subsidize the lowest common denominator (beginners) which Apple seems to believe (insultingly so IMHO) are incapable of learning a two button mouse....please have a little higher opinion of your users Apple

simX
Sep 18, 2003, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by fred
On my dime......if I didn't have to pay for the damn contraption I wouldn't mind....I don't want it so I shouldn't have to subsidize the lowest common denominator (beginners) which Apple seems to believe (insultingly so IMHO) are incapable of learning a two button mouse....please have a little higher opinion of your users Apple

Well, it seems that many of the people in this forum aren't as up in arms as you are because of Apple's wise decision to stick with one-button mice... I don't want to listen to forum whiners who seem to believe (insultingly so IMHO) that everybody should learn complicated contraptions. :rolleyes:

zach
Sep 18, 2003, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by phasornc
I can't believe anyone is sticking up for Apple on this one.

Apple spends all this money on these beautiful keyboards and mice that match the computer, only to make them useless by excluding the right button and the scroll wheel/button. Smart browsers like Mozilla are now middle button smart. The revolution is coming. Apple missed the boat with right button, now they are missing the boat with the middle button.

My company just bought 20 new Macs and now we have to spend and extra $400 on 2 button mice, that look like ****e. All I want is the choice to be able to get a 3 button wheel mouse that matches my computer. Is that too much to ask???? No, it isn't. Part of the reason we like Mac is because of the good looks, I can't believe so many people are saying "just go out and buy a $20 mouse" Form is only as good as function. And if my mom, the worlds most incompetent computer user (she still doesn't understand files and folders) loves the scroll wheel, then everyone can easily understand and use the scroll we. Steve is wrong and I hope No one buys that stupid wireless mouse. For gods sake apple is so protective of their one button mouse you'd almost think the invented it. In fact, I bet Steve Jobs really does think he invented it.

While I can understand to an extent why people like 2 button mice, and I can certainly understand why people like scroll wheels (News Flash: I do too), I cannot understand why in the world people would want a three button mouse.

"Hey mom, I can copy, paste, and click with one hand! YEA!"

Um, no.

Hey, if Apple is missing the "Three Button Mouse Revolution", why haven't I ever seen a Mac application that can use three buttons? And why haven't I seen more than two Windows applications that can use that piece of s--- third button?

Hunh. His Mighty Steveness is wrong, eh? If "your company" so desperatally needs three button mice, I think they should be able to fork over the $400. What's that, you say? They don't have enough money? Too damn bad. How bout you just deal and hit command when you click!

::GASP:: New concept! ::GASP::

Yarddog
Sep 18, 2003, 09:25 PM
The bottom line is, I'd love to buy an apple mouse if it suited my needs. I'd like a 4 button mouse with a forward and back key for browsing the web as well as the scroll wheel. I've become so accustomed to using them.

If Apple doesn't feel it is worth their time to design one to get my $59, then I'll go buy one from Logitech or MS. I'd pay more to have an apple branded mouse that matched my computer, but it is no skin off my nose, really. I've already paid them for the new G5, guess the $59 mouse is not a biggie.

The only reason I can see to even sell a 1 button mouse is for small children. There aren't any other 1 button mice readily available, so apple is filling a nice little niche there, just like their computers.

billyb
Sep 18, 2003, 09:29 PM
one button mouse, two button, i don't care. if i want a nice 2 button mouse to match my apple system, i'll buy one. not for $20, because Apple wouldn't charge $20 for a two button mouse. i bet i could buy a pretty nice mouse for the $80 apple would charge...and sell the one they gave me with my desktop on eBay, as others have done.

the real issue for me is on the laptops. i wish apple would split their button down the middle, and it could be pre-set to have each button act the same. advanced users could change the settings to make it a true 2-button...right now, that's not an option.

and before anyone asks, yes, i am aware i can plug a mouse into my laptop. and no, i don't want to bring a mouse on the plane with the laptop barely fits on the tray in the first place.

brhmac
Sep 18, 2003, 09:30 PM
Even Bill Gates learned the merits of a GUI.

OK. OK. He stole it from Apple. :(

Still, maybe it's time Apple returned the favor and gave its users a 2-button mouse.

Not only is control-click nonintuitive, it's dysfunctional.

The point of the mouse is to streamline navigation through the GUI.

The point of the keyboard is to enter type.

Not vice versa -- or some odd combination.

Let the mouse be the mouse.

Let the keyboard be the keyboard.

C'mon, Steve. It's just good karma. :cool:

Put an end to the co-dependency. :D

danielgrenell
Sep 18, 2003, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by Macrumors
Reader mail: "There have been some rumors about a 2-button mouse. I asked [a] rep. about them. He said he was just at Apple for training on the new products (PowerBooks, G5, and Bluetooth peripherals). He was told that the rumors were false. He said that he was told, 'There will be a 2 button mouse when a) Jobs leaves Apple or b) when hell freezes over'."

that sounds about right

Fukui
Sep 18, 2003, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by zap23
Hey, if Apple is missing the "Three Button Mouse Revolution", why haven't I ever seen a Mac application that can use three buttons?
Actually...
Safari uses both middle-click and right-click. Middle clicking a link opens it in a new tab, very convinient. FWIW, neither Sony nor DELL ship with laser-guided mouse (which sucks because you have to go an buy an extra or order one with your comp)...so I think it could be reversed..why doesn't Dell or Sony ship with any laser mice by default?? It seems that both of them could learn from each other, more buttons to apple and better quality to Dell/Sony et all...

settledown
Sep 18, 2003, 11:09 PM
http://www.macally.com/spec/usb/input_device/icemousejr.html

There is your matching 2 button/scroll wheel mouse. $24 at Macwarehouse.

Go buy it and shut up, all of you.

If you don't get the reasons for the one button mouse now, you never will.


Apples comps are built to perform your basic needs out of the box. If iPhoto isn't enough for you-go get Photoshop. If iMovie isn't enough for you- go get Final Cut. If Mail.app isn't enough for you - go buy Entourage. If your one button mouse isn't enough for you - go buy a six button trackball/lazer pointer/touch screen...

Just quit asking Apple to do everything for you.

msgile
Sep 18, 2003, 11:21 PM
I have used several pc laptops and was skeptical about the mac 1 button mouse culture; however, after owning a powerbook for about a year I must say I am very happy with the single large button all the way across the bottom of the track pad. The advantage of this is that I can use either hand (or either thumb) to track with while the other can clumsily tap the over sized button. On the PC's I would have to constantly think about which button I was going to hit or need to hit, often this involved crossing my thumb so one could track and the other could click (very bad). My hands don't move far from the home possition so I can always easily find crtl. The only improvement I can think of is the have tactile finger guides on the ctrl key.

With a mouse however I do find it easier to use a two button mouse (I guess the about paragraph is kind of off topic). But the idea behind the single mouse is that right clicks are not required for opperation and all context menu's are available in the menu bar. This is not true on a pc, especially if M$ has designed the product. Often in PC apps right clicking on an object is the only way to get to some functions, very frustrating.

SiliconAddict
Sep 19, 2003, 12:54 AM
[EDIT] Never mind someone mentioned it. :p

Why can't we delete our own posts...er..blunders :o

jacksaid
Sep 19, 2003, 12:58 AM
I have to say I don't understand the resistance to multibutton mice.

Can't we all agree that apple can handle this challenge? Just set the defaults so that both buttons "Left" click, and everyone would get what they wanted. Beginning users would get essentially one button. Changing the system prefs could enable the second click. After a week or so of use, I suspect people could probably evolve to two buttons, but the choice would be there.

Ultimately, I think the solution is a touchpad button, which could be configured to simulate a single button to tapping, or could be divided into two button areas, or even used for gestures (i.e rotary scrolling). That would work for mice and laptops as easily as it does on the iPods.

vwcruisn
Sep 19, 2003, 01:04 AM
if jobs wants the 1 button mouse so bad.. why dont they offer a 2 button APPLE mouse as an option when you buy your computer.. no extra charge.. basically you can have a one button or a 2 button mouse YOUR choice. Its ridiculous that in this day in age.. a freakin G5 comes with a one button mouse.

Another idea.. imacs can ship with one button.. G5s ship with 2 button.. come on... apple shouldnt be marketing their computers to the "idiot" anymore.. little old ladies who don't know what a 2 button mouse is for.. first of all.. i say ***** em... apple needs to market towards the creative professionals that use their computers every day to get work done... and second... the beginning computer IDIOT will most likely not shell out all the cash for a G5

sorry for the rant.. this just seems ridiculous to me.. i spend 3K on a computer.. no monitor.. and i need to go out and buy an aftermarket mouse? :rolleyes: get a clue jobs... the one button mouse thing worked for a while.. but we've been in the 21st century now for several years.. all things must change..

LegionCSUF
Sep 19, 2003, 01:04 AM
Originally posted by simX
Sure, I'll show you. Click the link. It usually downloads if it's something you want to download. If not, go to File --> Save As... after clicking the link. See? It's in there without using a contextual menu. Or, you can just option-click on a link.

The point of the menu option is to download the target WITHOUT browsing to the page. I use this often, particularly with video and sound clips. I don't want them to PLAY, I don't want QuickTime doing the download - I want the file downloaded, plain and simple. I'll grant you that your way is ultimately usable as well, but I would argue that the difference isn't necessarily trivial.

Your point about the command-click has a major flaw: you already have to know to hold down option before you get the visual input. And you have to turn on a status bar that isn't on by default. Both things will elude the novice user - and that's what the mouse button argument always ends up boiling down to.

I will concede that a novice user would have to figure out to use the second mouse button as well, but I would argue that it is far more intuitive to click the "other" mouse button to try and access "other" functionality than it is to turn on a feature in a program menu, hold down an arbitrary key (a terrible UI convention, IMO - worse than most any mouse-related UI fallacy in my eyes), and point at things while continuing to hold down the key.

Yes, contextual menus are very convenient, which is why Apple added them back in Mac OS 8 and has retained them in Mac OS X. But the fact remains that many users don't use contextual menus, so there should ALWAYS be some other way to access the functions. Not doing so is bad design of a program. That doesn't mean that these alternatives are more convenient than the contextual menu -- they're probably not. But they need to exist.

This is not something I will argue against. Having other means of accomplishing tasks IS a good thing, and good UI design will always try to accomodate users that might want to perform operations in different ways.

MacBandit
Sep 19, 2003, 01:27 AM
Originally posted by SiliconAddict
[EDIT] Never mind someone mentioned it. :p

Why can't we delete our own posts...er..blunders :o

Contribute and you might just get that ability.

We'll talk about it.

SiliconAddict
Sep 19, 2003, 01:32 AM
Coming from a PC side of things I wonít use a 1 button mouse ever. This is why it somewhat irks me that there are so may comments that ďOh just replace the mouseĒ :rolleyes: Thatís great for a desktop. But I donít want to carry around a mouse for a PowerBook. :( Its not a matter of getting use to it. Itís a matter of principle. Iíve read how you donít need context sensitive menus. This is bull IMHO Context sensitive menus are the ultimate shortcuts. They pack a lot of functionality depending where you are on the screen. So instead of needing to wade through menus at the top of the screen its right there one click of the mouse away. And for those against CSM you can argue all day and night. Its not going to change the fact that CSMs are very powerful tools when designed right. Iíve seen more then my fair share of software where CSM is a bloody mess.

As for the two button mouse. LOL. Iím starting to wonder if this topic is right up there with porting OSX to i386 as the most discussed topic on the board. :)

Again I donít subscribe to the notion that a two button mouse is any harder to use then a one button. Its simply a matter of education. If someone has never used a 2 button mouse before of course its going to take some learning but as soon as they learn that itís the equivalent of the, thatís the blasted command again? , ctrl click?, cloverleaf click? , they know whatís going on. The office I work in is populated with users in their 30ís-40ís-50ís. Everyone knows what a right mouse click does, even the older folks, simply because thatís what theyíve used.
Honestly the supposed simplicity of the one button mouse has always eluded me. Maybe its just me but any functionality of the mouse should stayÖ.on the mouse. By having a toggle button on the keyboard that isnít glaringly obvious, heck it took me a few minutes to figure it out a few months back when I went in to play with a 17Ē PowerBook and even now I have no idea what the key is, you are making it more difficult to use the mouse then simply having a toggle key on the mouse itself which we would call a right mouse button. I do not understand this, Iíve never understood this, and I highly doubt I ever will because IMHO it seems bizarre.

Maybe Iím giving people a bit to much credit but if they graduated from grade school there should be enough intelligence in their skull to figure out after a few clicks what a right mouse click does. And its not as if Apple has been advertising CSM and the right mouse click. I seriously wonder what % of mac users even know about it and if they did how many would use it. I also wonder what % of Mac users replace their mouse with a 2 button mouse.
Possible poll question?

biotech9
Sep 19, 2003, 02:26 AM
I've been reading these boards for a year now, i have been using macs for a few years, and this is the first time i have ever been really dissapointed in the Mac community here, so much so that i had to register just to post this.


There is no way any of you can defend this ****, people with ancedotal evidence that 2nd mouse buttons Scare and confuse users, need to get those users into a home for the Senile. its an extra button, not a mind probe. And control clicking is not a valid exercise for contextual menus either, so don't bring it up.

If i pay 3 grand on a G5, or a PB, i should not have to sell parts of my hardware on eBay and then buy a replacement third party mouse. Its not something i should have to do, when i am dealing with a high end manufacturer. The G5 and the powerbooks are PREMIUM top of the range hardware. None of you would ever find a superior PC desk or notebook to these, could you?

So if i do go with the ultimate hardware, why do i get an antiquated input device with it? (even though it is beautiful)

Why the hell should i have to buy a 3rd party solution?????

MacBandit
Sep 19, 2003, 03:03 AM
Originally posted by biotech9
I've been reading these boards for a year now, i have been using macs for a few years, and this is the first time i have ever been really dissapointed in the Mac community here, so much so that i had to register just to post this.


There is no way any of you can defend this ****, people with ancedotal evidence that 2nd mouse buttons Scare and confuse users, need to get those users into a home for the Senile. its an extra button, not a mind probe. And control clicking is not a valid exercise for contextual menus either, so don't bring it up.

If i pay 3 grand on a G5, or a PB, i should not have to sell parts of my hardware on eBay and then buy a replacement third party mouse. Its not something i should have to do, when i am dealing with a high end manufacturer. The G5 and the powerbooks are PREMIUM top of the range hardware. None of you would ever find a superior PC desk or notebook to these, could you?

So if i do go with the ultimate hardware, why do i get an antiquated input device with it? (even though it is beautiful)

Why the hell should i have to buy a 3rd party solution?????

Because the simple fact is no matter what mouse Apple provides with it, it will not satisfy everyone. So the best route is to supply the best but cheapest simplest mouse they can and let the people get the mouse they really want. When you buy a Mac you are not paying for the mouse. Just think of it as a free gift.

biotech9
Sep 19, 2003, 04:13 AM
I guess thats a trollish title up there, but i don't care. That is a retarded statement.

Watch me, watch the MAGIC that i do with my powers of logic.


(1) I have money.

(2) I give said money to Apple, in exchange for a Dual 2 Ghz G5 and 23 inch display.

(3) I get Top notch, ultra sexy hardware, all cutting edge, except for one of the key parts, which is also dirt cheap compared to the rest.

now what?

If i crack open my G5 and see a Pentium with mmx inside, do i say "Aaaah shucks,looks like the free gift G5 has ben exchanged for a free gift 486!".


The other retarded point you made is that Apple cannot make a mouse that satisfies everyone.

Do apple make laptops to satisfy everyone? No. but they have a choice of cheap, tough iBook, or expensive powerful PB.

Why is there no equivalent in the mice?

why not a 1 button as standard, and for an extra 20 euros (That second button is so expensive), a 4 button with scroll wheel?


Why not? they have choice in Every other part of their line up.

If you are going to reply, In addition to

(1) it confuses people
(2) ctrl-click is just as good

I also want to hear no nonsensical

(3) its a free gift (albeit a crappy one)
(4) get a 3rd party mouse!

Any valid points are of course welcome. If you can think of one, I can't.



(and P.S. I mean no offence by the retarded accusation, but Jesus! what a moronic statement! Mac Zealot material)

MacBandit
Sep 19, 2003, 04:34 AM
Originally posted by biotech9
..........If you are going to reply, In addition to

(1) it confuses people
(2) ctrl-click is just as good

I also want to hear no nonsensical

(3) its a free gift (albeit a crappy one)
(4) get a 3rd party mouse!

Any valid points are of course welcome. If you can think of one, I can't.



(and P.S. I mean no offence by the retarded accusation, but Jesus! what a moronic statement! Mac Zealot material)

If you don't want to hear reason and our point of view that is fine just accept out differing views and drop the issue. Otherwise don't put statements like this in your response saying I don't want to hear this or that argument.

The simple fact is input devices are a very personal item that are cheap with lots of options. The simple fact that unlike a more expensive device there are lots of options and there is no way Apple can hope to satisfy all users requests in such a device just like the computers. Just read these boards for a while and you will realize that some of these users wouldn't be happy with a G20 processor running at 5000 GHz.

iMeowbot
Sep 19, 2003, 04:42 AM
I find this "one button is old fashioned" reasoning kind of interesting, because the real antique mice had 2 and 3 buttons: the model Engelbart patented, and the pre-Mac Logitech mice that ended up on AT&T machines. The Smalltalk environment, Alto and Star interfaces that that so heavily influenced the Mac's GUI all used 2 and 3 button mice as well.

Obviously there are some people who vocally disagree with the decision Apple made, but it was a deliberate change from the GUIs that came before. In other words, it might be more fruitful to ask why those second and third buttons were eliminated, rather than why they aren't now being added.

biotech9
Sep 19, 2003, 04:54 AM
Apple could at least supply more than 1 option. (Wireless/Wired doesnt count).

And i don't want to hear nonsensical stupid comments, i don't mind valid points. but when i hear somebody telling me how their grandmother gets frightened and wets herself whenever she sees a mouse with two buttons, it makes me want to hit that old lady with a mallet.

There is no possible way to argue that a second mouse button is a confusing object, people who find it more confusing than holding down a keyboard key while clicking need to be kept in rooms with soft walls and kept away from scissors.

If Apple supply one button mice because they are less confusing, they should start remove those horribly confusing keys on the keyboard and replace them with 4 buttons.

Each button would have a picture of a Farm yard animal, and when you press the face it makes the corresponding animal sound.

Sound stupid? I hope so.

MacBandit
Sep 19, 2003, 05:02 AM
Why doesn't Apple have a track ball and a drawing pad and CRT monitors and they're own printers and scanners and speakers. Come on give it a rest.

biotech9
Sep 19, 2003, 05:12 AM
Originally posted by MacBandit
Why doesn't Apple have a track ball and a drawing pad and CRT monitors and they're own printers and scanners and speakers. Come on give it a rest.

What a wonderful non-sequitur!

why doesn't apple turn into a banana and fly into the sun?

what a statment!

Apple don't sell CRTs, Or Track balls, or Drawing pads, or Printer or scanners.

Here is a simple intelligence test, aimed specifically at you, because I am worried your IQ is so low that maybe the 1-button mouse/no-scissors plan may be best for you.

(Question) Do Apple make and sell Mouses?


If you answered no, then maybe you should tell me to shut up, and then tell me that 2 buttons is GAY, or too confusing, then say ctrl clicking is much faster anyway.


Or post a second non-sequitur if you like.




If you answered yes, then congratulations, now try and stay on topic and keep talking those pills your Doctor prescribed.

vwcruisn
Sep 19, 2003, 05:38 AM
Originally posted by MacBandit
Because the simple fact is no matter what mouse Apple provides with it, it will not satisfy everyone.


I wonder how many more people would be satisfied with a 2 button mouse? You are rite... you cant please em all... but shouldnt you please the majority?

MacBandit
Sep 19, 2003, 05:43 AM
Originally posted by vwcruisn
I wonder how many more people would be satisfied with a 2 button mouse? You are rite... we cant please em all... but shouldnt we please the majority?

Prove to me that the majority of Apple computer purchasers want a 2 button mouse or even care about such a thing when they make the purchase and I'll will resign from the discussion.

MacBandit
Sep 19, 2003, 05:45 AM
Originally posted by biotech9
What a wonderful non-sequitur!

why doesn't apple turn into a banana and fly into the sun?

what a statment!

Apple don't sell CRTs, Or Track balls, or Drawing pads, or Printer or scanners.

Here is a simple intelligence test, aimed specifically at you, because I am worried your IQ is so low that maybe the 1-button mouse/no-scissors plan may be best for you.

(Question) Do Apple make and sell Mouses?


If you answered no, then maybe you should tell me to shut up, and then tell me that 2 buttons is GAY, or too confusing, then say ctrl clicking is much faster anyway.


Or post a second non-sequitur if you like.




If you answered yes, then congratulations, now try and stay on topic and keep talking those pills your Doctor prescribed.

You're arguing about a matter of $20 and you're calling me an idiot. Come on if you want to start name calling and bring this down to a 3rd grade level I already know who has the lower intelligence quotient.

biotech9
Sep 19, 2003, 05:55 AM
Its my cash you fool, If you think 20 quid is nothing, please send it to me. The saying does go "A fool and his money are soon parted", not "a fool worries about 20 quid, its nothing, plus he likes 1 button mice".


As for proving more people prefer 2 button mice, Go and look at the poll results on macrumors main site. I should imagine by now the "3rd party 2 button or more" bar is heavily in the lead.


Then make good on your promise and retire from this thread.


If anyone else has a reason for not providing a two button mouse, please do reply.

And if anyone can point out why, if the matter is ONLY about 20 euros, Apple don't just provide the bloody mice that the majority want. If it is so cheap, what is stopping them?

MacBandit
Sep 19, 2003, 06:06 AM
Originally posted by biotech9
Its my cash you fool, If you think 20 quid is nothing, please send it to me. The saying does go "A fool and his money are soon parted", not "a fool worries about 20 quid, its nothing, plus he likes 1 button mice".


As for proving more people prefer 2 button mice, Go and look at the poll results on macrumors main site. I should imagine by now the "3rd party 2 button or more" bar is heavily in the lead.


Then make goo don your promise and retire from this thread.


If anyone else has a reason for not providing a two mutton mouse, please do reply.

And if anyone can point out why, if the matter is ONLY about 20 euros, Apple don't just provide the bloody mice that the majority want. If it is so cheap, what is stopping them?

That is in no way an accurate poll. The people that make it to this page already know enough about computers to know about multi-button mice. An accurate poll would be one done by Apple at the point of purchase of every computer they sell over the next year.

I'm sorry but if you can afford a thousand dollars for a computer then you can certainly afford a mouse of your choice. The point is no matter what Apple provides a person will almost always be better off shopping for a mouse that fits them and they're work flow. What I'm trying to say is I think Apple plain and simply expects the end user to eventually upgrade as they're experience increases so they include a mouse that fits the lowest common denominator. The newbie.

Knock off the personal attacks or get lost.

ethernet76
Sep 19, 2003, 06:16 AM
There already is an alternative to the second button, keyboard shortcuts.

The mouse is suppose to be simple and easy to use. The keyboard, not so much. I could probably get away with out using a mouse, but for some things it's easier. Just as I could probably get away with using only a mouse (except for writing). Beginners are going to see two buttons and wonder what the second one is for. Sort of like how most users wonder what the print screen button does when it actually doesn't print the screen.

If users were truely "advanced" they'd simply remember the keyboard shortcuts because they're quicker than using a second mouse button anyway.

In windows the only reason I use a second mouse button is for gaming, and even then it's not all that useful. As for the scrollwheel, it's called pagedown or the down arrow. Scroll wheels are erratic an uncomfortable.

As for a design change I'dlike to see, trackpad built right into the keyboard(with optional use of pen thingy). To the right of the keypad. While it wouldn't be great for detail work without the pen. It'd be easier than a mouse, no moving it all over your desktop.

biotech9
Sep 19, 2003, 06:20 AM
I don't believe Apple expect you to buy the PC and then go shop for the "perfect mouse" for you.

The reason is this, Apple make the most incredibly perfect one button mouse ever made.

The current optical mouse, is a beautiful work of art, it is Sublime! I can't get over how perfect the design is, its incredible!

So, if why make such an incredibly expensive mouse if you are making it, KNOWING that most people will throw it away.


Therefore Apple do not want people to get rid of the 1 button mouse, they want you to use it.

And as for you saying that people who can make it to this poll know enough about PCs to use multi button mice. I mean HOLY COW!!!!

Its not rocket science to naviagte to this site. You are not "Elite" because you know how to right click or type "www.macrumors.com" into a browser. I spent 4 years at college learning how to clone things and alter the basic genetic structure of all living things. So perhaps ai am a super intelligent member of mankind, but i think you are being delusional if you think the number of people that don't know how to figure out a second button is anything but insignificant, especially in the pro computer market that Apple cater to.

Admit it! this one button mouse only crap is a personal stigma of one "Steve Jobs", The man has something against 2nd buttons. Defending his idiosyncrasies is just plain dumb. Just because Apple make incredibly nice stuff, doesnt mean they can't make mistakes.

MacBandit
Sep 19, 2003, 06:26 AM
Originally posted by biotech9
And as for you saying that people who can make it to this poll know enough about PCs to use multi button mice. I mean HOLY COW!!!!

Its not rocket science to naviagte to this site. You are not "Elite" because you know how to right click or type "www.macrumors.com" into a browser. I spent 4 years at college learning how to clone things and alter the basic genetic structure of all living things. So perhaps ai am a super intelligent member of mankind, but i think you are being delusional if you think the number of people that don't know how to figure out a second button is anything but insignificant, especially in the pro computer market that Apple cater to.

I am in no way saying that I am or you are or anyone is intelligent if they make it this far. When was the last time you helped out a begging computer user. I mean the type that thinks a computer is for playing solitaire? Those people can't operate a mouse or a keyboard those are the people that need a touch screen interface not multi-button mice.

Do you really think the Apple mouse costs them a lot to make? I think it probably cost $.10 if that. Yes it's pretty but beyond that it's not much more then a cheap run of the mill off the shelf $10 or less special. Apple markets there computer to beginners and professionals. Beginners have no need for a keyboard let alone multiple buttons. Professionals have certain needs and will most likely be getting a mouse or another form of input device that fits their needs.

maka
Sep 19, 2003, 06:27 AM
reading this topic is amazing :) How violent is this going to get over such a small thing?

First time I saw a Mac (A Classic) I instantly fell in love with it's simplicity in design, and that's what the one button mouse is. It's simple and it works. I'd hate it if apple would stop giving them.

I want a one button mouse not because I can't use a 2 or 3 button one, but because I LIKE the one button mouse. ok? It's not about not being able to understand the complex usage of more that 2 buttons.

I also agree that as long as Apple gives a one button mouse with their computers, 3 party developers will keep making programs with better and simpler inferfaces, which is good.

And I'm talking from the perspective of a professional user. I work with ProTools, and I've got one hand in the mouse and the other on the keyboard, because the FASTEST way to work is using the keyboard shortcuts, and it doesn't bother me one bit having to ocasionally press Control or Command for some actions, because my thumb is already there. Of course, this is my personal situation here...

Ah! whoever said the Apple mouse is crapy hasn't used one very long... I've never (really never) have had the need to replace an Apple mouse. They are tough and they function perfectly well.

MacBandit
Sep 19, 2003, 06:31 AM
Originally posted by maka
Ah! whoever said the Apple mouse is crapy hasn't used one very long... I've never (really never) have had the need to replace an Apple mouse. They are tough and they function perfectly well.

I never said the Apple mouse was crappy simply that there is nothing special about it to reason that it's an extraordinarily expensive piece of equipment.

biotech9
Sep 19, 2003, 06:35 AM
I paid my way through college by working as an Admin in 2 internet cafes, i have helped some of the worlds most stupid people and their pissing AOL. But i have only met 2 out of the tens of thousands that passed through those cafe dors during the four years i worked there that could not use the 3 button scroll wheel mice there.


One was old american guy who tried to touch the screen to get AOL going, and the other was an old woman, who lifted up the mouse and started waving it through the air.

People are not stupid, especially ( I say again!), those who use the pro tools, that are Mac PCs.

As for Keyboard short cuts, yes, they are definately the quickest way around PCs, both windows and Mac. And there are millions on both Operating systems.

But that is no excuse for retarding the mouse. Why not remove it all together?


Lets overview the points thus far...

(1) The cost to Apple of making an OPTIONAL 2+ button mouse is neglible

(2) There is a market for these mice among the pro elite hackers who can understand the magic of a second button

(3) there is NO REASON why there should not be a 2 button mouse.


(you could even hide it on the apple website, so people dont accidentally order it and then **** themselves when they see the second button)


Well?????

jaedreth
Sep 19, 2003, 06:53 AM
I've not only used Macs since 7th grade, I've *fixed* them since 8th grade. I worked at Apple for 3 years.

I now work for an ISP whose main customer base is Windows users.

You would not believe how often I hear "Is that right click or left click?"

The largest percentage of Windows users, consumers, don't have a clue on the right mouse button or the scroll wheel. However, Windows is targeted at power users. The original core of the os, DOS, was for computer experts only. Windows only developed so that novices could use it, not use it well. And thus the very lucrative markets of technical support and IT were made, shaping the industry into the monstrosity it is today.

Apple is catering to the lowest common denomenator. Computer users who don't know how to use computers. This market makes up the largest percentage of Mac and PC users, because this market makes up the largest percentage of the overall market.

Apple makes computers as easy to use *as possible* for these users, while still offering us powerusers things to sink our teeth into. Windows slaps on a semblance of surface friendliness to hide its complexity, and if something goes wrong, it's time for an expensive call or trip to a specialist because there is no way a user could figure out how to do it themselves, unless they were trained or were already very geeky in that respect.

Apple will never ship a two button mouse. Never. Stop getting your hopes up.

Apple's position and policy (I know I worked there, tier 2 support) is that if you desire such functionality, purchase a third party product. They will likely meet your needs better anyways.

It comes free with the computer after all.

The operating system is not designed for such a mouse, why would they ship one that you have to open up a confusing system pane and assign tasks to it that you're not even sure you'd ever use on a mouse?

I have a microsoft intellimouse at home for my iBook, and truly the only thing I use the rightclick for is Diablo. If I remember. It's so natural for me to hit the command key before regular clicking, I often forget to rightclick. And the side buttons I have programmed for copy and paste, since I couldn't think of anything else to make them. I only use the thumbball, and I got it because it was cheaper than the apple mouse I wanted. I still use the built in trackpad far more.

Jaedreth

biotech9
Sep 19, 2003, 06:55 AM
I know its sad, but i took the 2 minutes neccesary to create this...


http://www.petitiononline.com/macmice/petition.html

Please do sign! Even if you hate 2 button mice and they make you cry with confusion.

biotech9
Sep 19, 2003, 07:02 AM
IT DOES NOT COME FREE WITH THE PC.

You PAY for it, the power cable is not a free add on, neither is the power supply or the CPU, or the keyboard. They are part of what you pay for.


And since when is opening a SYSTEM PREFERANCE PANE COMPLICATED???

you guys are NUTS, talk about delusional. If opening the system preferances is confusing, how do you handle opening the fridge, or programming your VCR. How do these imaginary confused people put in thier IP address or set thier time and date?

And don't even jokingly pretend Apple aim for the retarded set of PC users.

(not "Confused", if you can't handle a system preferance, you are below average intelligence)

Apple have a niche market, if they aimed at the stupid, judging by the replies i got here today, they would have a majority market share.

Apple aim at the pro market, the Photoshop users, the Cubase users, the BlastX users.

And OS X is designed for 2 button mice as much as XP or 2 K is. there are contectual menus everywhere, and right click brings them up.

maka
Sep 19, 2003, 07:04 AM
Originally posted by biotech9

People are not stupid, especially ( I say again!), those who use the pro tools, that are Mac PCs.


I meant Pro Tools, the Digital Audio Workstation. That's what I use the mac for professionally, and I've never felt the need of more than one button. As I said, a second (or more) button would even slow me down, because for serious work, at least in my case, the shortcuts plus a one button mouse are PERFECT.

And I still think that Apple should keep to the one button mouse, as it ensures a simpler, and less cluttering interface.

Originally posted by MacBandit

I never said the Apple mouse was crappy simply that there is nothing special about it to reason that it's an extraordinarily expensive piece of equipment.

Sorry, I wasn't anwering to your post... you've been saying the most reasonable things ;)

edit: BTW, the poll here shows 30% use the one button mouse, and as was said, users here are not the "regular" users... so...

maxtrax
Sep 19, 2003, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by reedm007
First off, arn, thanks for always being a voice of reason on here. It's amazing how passionate people get both ways...

This topic has been argued over and over again. I don't think this is Steve Jobs'doing at all -- as was already posted on this board, NeXT DID use multi-button mice. I'd seriously doubt that Steve is personally opposed to them, which doesn't give much credibility to this (albeit page 2) article posting.

At any rate, as a HCI major, I feel strongly for the argument of a one-button mouse by default, although I'd certainly not be against differemt options. Let's look at this from a UI perspective, and not from a "my grandma can't use 2 buttons":

2 BUTTON MICE LEAD TO BAD UI DESIGN:
This is inherent in windows software design. They assume all users will have 2 button mice, so you often have commands in contextual menus that don't exist elsewhere. This is simply a horrible idea. I know Apple's UI Guidelines say not to do this, but since when have all companies followed all of Apple's UI guidelines? Fact is, if they know people will have 2 button mice, they'll get lazy and we'll end up with programs using contextual menus instead of offering better UI techniques.

Now that argument applies only to saying that Apple shouldn't stop selling one-button mice, but doesn't address the point that Apple could offer an option on mice. Now here's the problem with that:

PROBLEMS WITH OFFERING THE OPTION:

Apple can either:

1. Give you a 1-button mouse with the computer, but offer a 2-button for sale seperately.

2. Let you choose online in BTO configurations.

3. Allow you to "delete" the mouse from your order.


Problem with option 1: People will be pissed that they have to fork over extra money to Apple for a second mouse, and this offers few advantages to APple over allowing you to choose a 3rd party mouse.

Problem with option 2: Inventory. It would be virtually impossible for retail stores (including Apple authorized resllers AND Apple Stores) to know what percentage of users will buy each. This would make an inventory nightmare, so APple could choose to only sell them as BTO on the online Apple STore. This will infuriate resellers, as well as cost Apple extra money, which is inherent with every BTO order. I'd rather save the extra $50 it might cost Apple and buy a 3rd party mouse.

Problem with option 3: Much like the BTO issue of problem 2, since the mouse is shipped *with* the computer, you still suffer from reseller issues as well as added cost for Apple to *remove* the mouse from your custom order. Apple could just start shipping all units without mice and require and extra purchase, but you KNOW people would complain about how Macs don't even ship with mice.

Basically, my point is, I don't see a good solution here. Providing the option, in theory, is a good ideam but, as Apple found with multi-colored iMacs, the inventory maintenance and guessing on demand is a nightmare. This would make the point for either shipping all of one kind of mouse (either all one-button or all two-button) and, as I pointed out above, ut seems to make sense, froim a UI standpoint, to choose 1-button, and allow consumers the option of purchasing their own 2-button mouse.

That said, Apple could always come up with some ingenious method of combining one and two-button mice into one individual mouse with a software setting of some kind... We'll just have to wait6 and see on that, but I don't think it's anything worth threatening to move to PC or arguing that people won't switch to Mac because of the one-button mouse. I think, if you did some researcch, you'd find that, despite some people using that as an excuse, that isn't the real reason they're not buying a Mac.

Finally a post that "actually" makes sense... Thank You!!! What a bunch of whiners on this board....

biotech9
Sep 19, 2003, 07:57 AM
I quote...

"
Problem with option 2: Inventory. It would be virtually impossible for retail stores (including Apple authorized resllers AND Apple Stores) to know what percentage of users will buy each. This would make an inventory nightmare, so APple could choose to only sell them as BTO on the online Apple STore. This will infuriate resellers, as well as cost Apple extra money, which is inherent with every BTO order. I'd rather save the extra $50 it might cost Apple and buy a 3rd party mouse.

"



And i say this,

That is one of the stupidest things i have heard here today.

How the hell do you expect Apple to tell what percentage of users to like ibooks over PBs? I mean, How the hell DOES ANY company know what percentage of product Z or Y people want?


You are an astonishingly foolish person.

This is too much for me, I was under the impression MAc zealots were just a bit too in love with Apple to see imperfection, but this is sheer delusion. What kind of warped minds do you have.

Compare the option for a 3 button mouse to the option of buying a kensington mouse, its horribly easy, Its available at the Apple store.

If it was there, people would not get pissed of and hate apple because they have to pay more, they would be happy because the choice is there.


I cannot get over how far you will stretch reason just to get answers to the unanswerable. To whit, why is there no option for Mice?

maka
Sep 19, 2003, 08:15 AM
There are lots of customers that use the one button mouse. (over 30% in the poll at this forum) and I am one of them.

I agree with Apple's philosophy of a simple interface and a one button mouse, because I think it's better and faster tu use. I don't see why they have to make a mouse against their philosophy.

You as a user are free to buy whatever mouse you like.

jeffberg
Sep 19, 2003, 08:36 AM
Do any of you realise that the reason the Macintosh is so easy is because of the one button mouse. Because of the one button mouse. Companies try to make interfaces that are simple and intuitive instead of just relying on the second mouse button that windows has. Sure, it may be annoying when some apps are really friendly to the right button and others are not, but the 1 button mouse is essential to keeping the macintosh simple. Once 2 buttons are standard, companies will stop making simple intuitive interfaces and will sell out with contextual menus up the ass.

The good thing about a 1 button mouse. Is you can replace it with 2 if your a pro. With a 2 button mouse, you can't replace it with a 1 if your a home user.

I'm sure this is Job's reasoning. I too sort of wish Apple would make a 2 button mouse in the same shape as their one button mouse (the most comforable mouse in the world) but right now I am using a 2 button mouse with a scroll wheel.

I just think that if Apple made 2 buttons standard our standard of easiness would disappear. not instantly, but 10 or 20 years later I think the Mac would be just as messed up as PC's (assuming we use mouses 20 years from now)

cionheart
Sep 19, 2003, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by Macrumors
'There will be a 2 button mouse when a) Jobs leaves Apple or b) when hell freezes over'.

In this case I hope hell freezes over. :D :D :D

sonofslim
Sep 19, 2003, 09:02 AM
it's obvious (to me, at least) that someone needs to start a new powerbook rumor if this is what happens when there's nothing else to talk about.

here's my tiny attempt to help:

if you really, really hate your 1-button mouse, mail it to me. i will send you a crisp dollar bill. put it towards the purchase of a bigger, badder mouse. or a can of soda. or pornography. or have it framed for display. what you do with your dollar is entirely up to you.

i am 100% serious -- message me for details.

(limit 1 mouse per person. offer is restricted to the first 20 respondents. offer expires 9/26/03.)

macnews
Sep 19, 2003, 09:57 AM
I can't believe the division on this topic. I think the real issue is the two button folks want an Apple designed two button mouse. Not unreasonable since most of us like Macs for their design. I would certainly hope they could do a better job then say MS or Logitech - although I am using a 2 button optical Logitech w/scroll and like it.

For those asking for 3+ buttons - get real! If you THINK that is the wave of the future then you are too young to be posting here. Three button + mice have been around for, well, over a decade. Not what I would call a wave of the future. The wave of the future is an input device that replaces the mouse - one or two button variety. That is what I am hoping Apple is working on. Creating this type of device would be what Apple is best at. Inventing. Creating. Leading the pack. Of course this would more than likely mean a whole new way to use your computer.

brucku
Sep 19, 2003, 10:55 AM
There is one reason why i am pissed with apple one button mice. And it isnt because i am too lazy to go to the store and purchase another mouse. I would do that if i could BUT NOW I HAVE TO LUG around an external mouse for MY BRAND NEW LAPTOP.

Because you can't just change the mouse buttons on a laptop. Apple's laptops should have 2 sides to the click button and as default , both sides should do the same thing, but if you set it differently, the other side should be a right click.[not my idea] I dont understand why apple doesnt do this. There is nothing but stubbornness that creates this decision. Begining users can just use a default setting. I dont care if i have to change a setting to get 2 clicks, that doesnt bother me, but my new laptop is short one mouse button because steve likes it "his way"

I wonder if steve uses a two button mouse when no one is looking.....

mrsebastian
Sep 19, 2003, 11:01 AM
oh come on apple, just give us a 2 button, bluetooth mouse with a scroll wheel! i used to not really care about the two button/scroll wheel thing, but after using it for a while i find myself hating the apple mice on my other macs, because they slow down my productivity = (

Greenlightboi
Sep 19, 2003, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by Wonder Boy
Hey Steve-O, call me when you need help packing!

I want my APPLE 2+ button mouse!

I'm with you on that, Apple needs to let go of a few things.... personally I think I could run the damn company better.... and, although all You Apple nuts will jump on me for saying this, the floppy drive needs to come back. As a student in a PC world, the lack of a 5$ peice of equipment is severly missed and creates alot of trouble.

Oh Steve.... THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR DAMNED INNOVATIONS!

JoeRadar
Sep 19, 2003, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by fred
repeat after me: THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT !!!
I believe it was the book The Innovator's Dilemma that claimed that well run companies that listen and respond to their best customers often go down the tubes.

IMHO, the mouse is about the easiest component to change on a Mac system (I use a Microsoft mouse), so if Apple is going to screw up (as defined by me) in some area, I prefer it here.

SiliconAddict
Sep 19, 2003, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by MacBandit
Because the simple fact is no matter what mouse Apple provides with it, it will not satisfy everyone. So the best route is to supply the best but cheapest simplest mouse they can and let the people get the mouse they really want. When you buy a Mac you are not paying for the mouse. Just think of it as a free gift.

With all due respect I disagree. Do you actually think that Apple doesn't bundle the price of the keyboard and mouse into the overall price of the system? You ARE paying for the keyboard and mouse. Now in bulk I'm guessing its substantially less then whatever Apple sells the keyboard and mouse for on their website but its in there somewhere.
With the desktop, as people have stated, its less of an issue because you can replace the keyboard and mouse if you feel like it. The complaining about spending XXXX and not having the option to use an alternative can be lobbed back into the complainers court in that if you are spending several thousand $30-$80 bucks more shouldn't make or break you.
But I do see the reasoning from a principle standpoint. At the time of purchase you should have the option for a 2 button mouse and if not that then you should have the option for no mouse. People as a general rule don't like being forced into something and that's what Apple is doing. The whole my way or the highway thing. If people like using a one button mouse thatís fine. More power to them. Reading through the posts here I donít see anyone saying that people are stupid for using one button mice. Itís more of a personal preference at this point. If you are more productive with a one button mouse good. If you are more productive with a 2 button mouse good. It doesnít really matter.

I think the main point of anyone who supports the 2 button mouse is that the excuse that its more difficult is old, tired, and just not accurate anymore.

jacksaid
Sep 19, 2003, 12:05 PM
I think we all understand that too many buttons confuses things at some point, so I personally think we should distinguish the two button argument from the "I want 5 buttons and a scroll wheel argument"

Saying TWO buttons is too complicated, but still using a second button on a keyboard as a click modifier is pretty inconsistent. As a couple of people have pointed out, it's LESS intuitive to think of combining one of the 3 modifier keys to get something done. I mean how "windows" is that?

I think the battle for barebones simplicity is over. It ended with ctrl-clicking. Contextual menus are the next evolutionary step, and once you accept that, getting there by a more convoluted technique is just more awkward than using a second button. Do we need to put a second ctrl key on the mouse to see that?

As I said in a previous post, you could always assign both buttons to "left click" by default out of the box, to preserve general usability (i.e. K-12 education).

Lastly, Apple is trying recreate itself in high end fashion: G5 and enterprise etc. I think the 1 button mouse is underpowered for that user.

I'm still hoping Apple is going to bust out with a mouse with a touchpad button. That would be clean and simple and configurable, and unbreakable, with scrolling and gestures etc.

maka
Sep 19, 2003, 12:35 PM
I don't think it's a question of "power" users needing more buttons. It's just different manners of using the computer and both can be effective and efficient.

But as it has been said before on the thread, Apple supports their nice, simple and tidy interface with a simple one button mouse that won't tempt developers to clutter it. It's perfect. And I think they should keep on doing it.

mkaake
Sep 19, 2003, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by fred
On my dime......if I didn't have to pay for the damn contraption I wouldn't mind....I don't want it so I shouldn't have to subsidize the lowest common denominator (beginners) which Apple seems to believe (insultingly so IMHO) are incapable of learning a two button mouse....please have a little higher opinion of your users Apple

oh man, you're so right it hurts.

let's eliminate the lowest common denominator!!

that way, we'll only have 3 powerbooks, and 3 powermacs - no imacs, no ibooks, heck, we won' tneed the itunes store! power users are too busy!

and you are actually insulting more people than you know by insinuating that they should be able to understand the two button mouse when they can't!

i really mean what my sig says! if this is such a big deal to you that you don't want to touch your apple branded mouse, send it to me! i need a new mouse!

man oh man, i've never seen a small group of people become to outraged by a mouse that they can replace quite easily...

and don't give me 'they don't give me a choice!' crap. you have a choice - buy a different freakin mouse.

oh, and for those of you who say 'they've really dropped the ball, they're gonna loose out big, there is no waayyyy they're going to sell ANYONE a freakin 70 dollar BT one button mouse!, etc.', look at store.apple.com's top 10 sales... guess what...

so i guess that LCD might be important after all, huh?

matt

mkaake
Sep 19, 2003, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by Greenlightboi
I'm with you on that, Apple needs to let go of a few things.... personally I think I could run the damn company better.... and, although all You Apple nuts will jump on me for saying this, the floppy drive needs to come back. As a student in a PC world, the lack of a 5$ peice of equipment is severly missed and creates alot of trouble.

Oh Steve.... THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR DAMNED INNOVATIONS!

maybe you should sit down for a few minutes, breathe, relax, realize you're talking about something that can be replaced cheaply, and then realize, as it's been pointed out a dozen times on this board -

NeXT used two button mice.

If steveo was sooo against two button mice, why would the company *he* actually started himself support the two button mouse.

there's solid reasons behind a two button mouse. and luckily, if you don't agree with apple, there's still tons of mice you can buy.

matt

gopy
Sep 19, 2003, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by LegionCSUF
I will concede that a novice user would have to figure out to use the second mouse button as well, but I would argue that it is far more intuitive to click the "other" mouse button to try and access "other" functionality than it is to turn on a feature in a program menu, hold down an arbitrary key (a terrible UI convention, IMO - worse than most any mouse-related UI fallacy in my eyes), and point at things while continuing to hold down the key.

The keys aren't arbitrary-- they're called modifier keys for a reason. Although, Safari really should have the 'Keyboard and Mouse Shortcuts' in the Help menu, not the Debug menu (for obvious reasons).

simX
Sep 19, 2003, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by LegionCSUF
The point of the menu option is to download the target WITHOUT browsing to the page. I use this often, particularly with video and sound clips. I don't want them to PLAY, I don't want QuickTime doing the download - I want the file downloaded, plain and simple. I'll grant you that your way is ultimately usable as well, but I would argue that the difference isn't necessarily trivial.

Your point about the command-click has a major flaw: you already have to know to hold down option before you get the visual input. And you have to turn on a status bar that isn't on by default. Both things will elude the novice user - and that's what the mouse button argument always ends up boiling down to.

Actually, you could just look in the preferences under tabbed browsing, and it tells you what all the key combos do. Of course, this isn't exactly trivial, so I see your point. But what I was pointing out was that there still is an alternative to the contextual menu. I agree with you -- the contextual menu is much more convenient, and I use the "Download Link to Disk" item all the time in Safari's contextual menus. But not everyone knows it's there.

I will concede that a novice user would have to figure out to use the second mouse button as well, but I would argue that it is far more intuitive to click the "other" mouse button to try and access "other" functionality than it is to turn on a feature in a program menu, hold down an arbitrary key (a terrible UI convention, IMO - worse than most any mouse-related UI fallacy in my eyes), and point at things while continuing to hold down the key.

Why is holding down a MODIFIER key on the keyboard while using the regular mouse button to access OTHER functionality any less intuitive than holding down an alternative mouse button to access alternative functionality? It's exactly the same. You're modifying your action; one with a modifier key, one with a different mouse button. Just because you have to use both the mouse and keyboard with a one-button mouse doesn't make it unintuitive -- in fact, my left hand remains on the keyboard while I move my right to the mouse, so I can easily reach the control key.

It makes perfect sense to hold down a modifier key to access other functionality, especially since you already do it so much of the time -- what do you think you're doing when you press Command-Q instead of Q? You're telling your Mac, "No, I don't want to type the letter 'q', I want to quit the active application." Applying the same notion to mouse buttons is hardly unintuitive.

This is not something I will argue against. Having other means of accomplishing tasks IS a good thing, and good UI design will always try to accomodate users that might want to perform operations in different ways.

That's the main point I was trying to make. If a two-button mouse becomes standard, then software makers will assume that everyone uses the two-button mouse, and make features that are only accessible in things like contextual menus. That's horrible design, and something I hope will never come to the Mac. One of the main reasons why I use a Mac is that the quality of the software is high because of careful UI decisions like this, and software that deviates from this highly annoys me. One less barrier to bad software is a bad thing, and I will gladly endure all the whiners who want an Apple-branded multi-button mouse in order to keep my quality Mac software.

saint.duo
Sep 19, 2003, 01:36 PM
Apple's development guidelines clearly state that anything in a contextual menu should only be a shortcut to something that can be accessed elsewhere. In other words, you should never HAVE to use a contextual menu to use a feature in a program.

If Apple starts shipping a 2 (or more) button mouse, developers will start ignoring this guideline, because "right-click" will become standard. Then, those computer newbies that only have or only want a one button mouse will not be able to access certain features.

Considering quite a few third party companies make good multi button mice, I believe Apple's position is fine.

To the person wanting a floppy drive, why not invest in an inexpensive 32MB USB flash drive? Floppies are physically larger, hold less, and lose data easier.

bcsimac
Sep 19, 2003, 01:39 PM
Like I said before, I don't care if it has one button, two buttons, or a gazillion buttons as long as the mouse works!

mrsebastian
Sep 19, 2003, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by simX
...That's the main point I was trying to make. If a two-button mouse becomes standard, then software makers will assume that everyone uses the two-button mouse, and make features that are only accessible in things like contextual menus. That's horrible design, and something I hope will never come to the Mac. One of the main reasons why I use a Mac is that the quality of the software is high because of careful UI decisions like this, and software that deviates from this highly annoys me. One less barrier to bad software is a bad thing, and I will gladly endure all the whiners who want an Apple-branded multi-button mouse in order to keep my quality Mac software.

i buy that agrument, but how about a scroll wheel?!

slowtreme
Sep 19, 2003, 02:49 PM
Everyone commenting that Apple needs to upgrade from 1 to 2 button mice are not seeing the picture. While you were all sleeping, Apple decided to remove the ONE button we did have.

Apple mice now have ZERO buttons. Creating a 2 button mouse in the style we have now would either:
a) ruin the "form" of the Apple mouse
b) lose the ablity to provide tactile responce. (i'm thinking left and right touch sensors like the power button)

My mac is an iBook, and I don't really miss 2 buttons, because my hands are on the KB anyway. If I had a desktop, I'd buy a 2 button + scroll mouse (I bought one for my wife). Although it is more fuctional than the original (no button) pro mouse I can't see how even apple could make 2 buttons and a scroll and make it look like it mathes everything else.

simX
Sep 19, 2003, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by mrsebastian
i buy that agrument, but how about a scroll wheel?!

A scroll wheel is a much more muddy issue than the two-button mouse. If the scroll wheel functions SOLELY as a scroll wheel, and not also as a button, then it can't really contribute to crappy UI design.

However, I would venture to say that it might be better to still leave it off the standard Apple mouse, because it still adds a level of confusion (though arguably not nearly as much as a second button). If Apple created an innovative way to create an intuitive scroll wheel (potentially like the one described in their recent patent), I don't think I'd necessarily be against putting it in the standard mouse.

Personally, I'm not incredibly fond of scroll wheels because they're not incredibly convenient, IMHO. Yeah, it's nice to be able to scroll down a page with the mouse, but on pages like forums and stuff, I already have my hands on the keyboard, so I just use the spacebar to scroll. Also, scrollwheels depend on where your mouse is positioned. For example, if the pointer is hovering over a textbox in a webpage, it'll scroll the textbox. If it's not, then it scrolls the webpage. The most annoying behavior of this, though, is that when the textbox is scrolled down to the bottom of the page, the web page then starts to scroll, even if you're in the same scroll action. I think this should be improved -- if you're scrolling a textbox, it shouldn't scroll the webpage as well in the same action. But if the textbox is already scrolled all the way down, then in a NEW scroll action, it's OK to scroll the web page.

There are a bunch of other things that I find kind of quirky about the scroll wheel in its current incarnation (and most if it is probably due to software design, not hardware design), which is why I lean more towards leaving off scroll wheels on the standard Apple mouse as well.

dguisinger
Sep 19, 2003, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by arn
Look, as hard as it is to comprehend... this is how it is...

Most people don't know how these thing work. If you've ever seen anyone who doesn't know how to use a computer... it's frustratingly painful to watch. You can insult them, but it doesn't make them disappear.

arn

Arn, I respectfully disagree. About 80% of people who use PCs know what the second mouse button does. I watch people of various ages every day. The others chose not to use it at all. Thats their choice.

Besides the fact that $70 for a single button mouse is the funniest thing I have ever seen, Apple certinaly doesn't know their market.

Lets see....lets spend millions upon millions of dollars telling everyone they should switch to the mac....but, even though we support the way they work with their computer, we won't let them without making the spend money on "hidden costs".

There are lots of Mac users who want 2-button mice. But even more so, 95% of switchers will want a 2 button mouse.

To add to this, Panther has added context button toolbars....nice touch, but now it requires 2 clicks instead of one. Just as currently you need 2 button presses (option+click) instead of one.

Yes everyone, lets say it together. 2 steps is bad UI design.

Get over it, it won't kill Apple to make it an option so people don't have to spend extra money just to get a decent mouse. Those who want a 1 button mouse can have theirs as well.

But I've got to say it, some of you idiots who swear it will be the end of Apple if they add 2 buttons because you must find choice and freedom to be an evil in this world. I think you guys would be much happier living in North Korea where you have no say in anything.

Edit: Note to Arn....I was not refering to you in the last paragraph :)

mrsebastian
Sep 19, 2003, 04:44 PM
i guess it comes down to preference. i for one, like anything that helps me work faster and more intuitively! using my two button mouse and scroll wheel, i can do so much with one hand instead of using the keyboard and mouse. this may seem trivial, but it makes a big difference to me and many others.

i don't really care in the end, if i have to buy a third party mouse or one from apple to be honest. i just know apple is missing the boat not offering it's pro users the option of purchasing a "pro" 2 button/wheel mouse designed by apple. as an apple stock holder and life long user, i think in terms of what i'd like and also what's a financially good concept for apple. talking in really simple terms (basically pulling numbers out of the air), say the profit on a pro mouse is $25 and apple sells 100,000 of 'em a year, that quite a few clams. why give that business to someone else, when apple knows that we die-hard mac fanatics will buy just about anything if you slop an apple logo on it... if anybody at apple is reading this, please forward a note to steve to read this!

LegionCSUF
Sep 19, 2003, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by simX
[B]Why is holding down a MODIFIER key on the keyboard while using the regular mouse button to access OTHER functionality any less intuitive than holding down an alternative mouse button to access alternative functionality?

Ask someone that's never used a PC to point to the "right mouse button".

Now ask them to point out the "modifier" key (it's right next to the "any key"!).

A modifier key is not immediately obvious. Not to mention we're talking about more than one key here. Bringing up the menus is done with a CTRL-click. Why not Alt/Option, why not the Apple key? It's arbitrary, and it in no way shape or form as obvious as an additional mouse button. The fact is, the keyboard and mouse are separate devices, and your solution involves even thinking you need to coordinate between the two. This is better than having mouse functionality accomplished with buttons on the mouse, and keyboard keys stick to keyboard functionality?

Sorry, I've had to explain to too many people that think "you can't right-click on a Mac" to buy it. It's not intuitive to require combined input across multiple devices to accomplish a single task. Far too many people will assume it can't be done before making that connection. After all, you wouldn't expect to have to (or even be able to) hold a modifier key and press a button on a joystick or gamepad, and have it do something different. I think you highly underestimate the division between separate devices in peoples' minds - and I think that should be the ideal.

Not to mention that not every person has use of two hands, and even for those of us that do, I won't buy a rather arbitrary coordination of two hands and two input devices as being equally simple and intuitive as a simple action with one hand on one input device.


That's the main point I was trying to make. If a two-button mouse becomes standard, then software makers will assume that everyone uses the two-button mouse, and make features that are only accessible in things like contextual menus. That's horrible design, and something I hope will never come to the Mac.

Many PC applications manage to not do this. Bad UI design is bad UI design. Having a one-button mouse does not prevent bad design. We have a different philosophy on this, and that's OK. I am not willing to sacrifice hardware functionality on the basis that some software developer may put it to bad use.

The more I can do one-handed with a mouse, and the less often I have to set down my Coca-Cola, the better. :) Heh, my computer-novice family would throw a fit if I ever took their mouse away and just gave them one without a scroll wheel, let alone only one button.

Of course, in the long run, as long as MacOS continues to support third-party multi-button mice, I only care with respect to laptop computers. And I accept that it would be really hard to release laptops with different numbers of buttons. I kinda like the idea of PowerBooks being 2-button and iBooks being 1-button, but I accept that it would be difficult to get some elements of the Mac community to go with that.

I think Apple ought to make it a BTO option and such, but really, as long as there is a way to get it, it's really not a big deal. I just wish there were a 2nd button on my PowerBook. And maybe even the "scroll area" on the touchpad like my girlfriend's HP would be nice. But let's not go down that road. :)

Sheebahawk
Sep 19, 2003, 07:19 PM
sheeze. I don't understand how some people get defensive if a customer states that they want to give their money to Apple for an elegant multi functional mouse. The last apple mouse I kept on my system was beige, and so was the system. I find windows Xp to be more fluid and graceful and responsive to the movements of my four button microsoft optic mouse. I can interact with the windows GUI with less work than it takes me on my mac. Maybe panther will improve mouse functionality, but really apple has no reason not to develop a sick ass looking wireless mouse with an ipod scrollwheel and programmable buttons to go along with my new 17" powerbook. Sure there are third party solutions, but its in my rights to WANT a well integrated solution from apple, because I know apple would do it better than anyone else. if Apple doesn't want to sell multi button mice, thats fine, Ive already given my money to microsoft

Also I think multi buttoned mice are more professional, if apple wants the business market to take them seriously, why not provide the option? Being able to cut copy and paste with one finger, is easier than using two hands. the current Apple mice suck, I like my clicking to be robust, but then again, I preferred the hockeypuck design so maybe its my taste.

Larshart
Sep 19, 2003, 07:32 PM
It is evident that Apple should definitely consider making a "2+ Button Scroll Mouse", just look.

This discussion group has over 140 postings, as compared with the "Panther Q & A" discussion which has around 25 at this time.

The numbers don't lie, this has definitely struck a nerve in the community.

scan300
Sep 19, 2003, 07:34 PM
FIRST, I'm a bit miffed that so many people think pro users = 2 button mouse users.

I use a single button mouse because it's more functional. I find it superior to 2 buttons when I need to click and drag hundreds of times in a design session. It definitely doesn't cause stress to my hand because I can rest my fingers on the mouse without fear of accidentally clicking and I can use my whole hand to click. Anything which reduces carpel tunnel or RSI is good ergonomics in my book. I started my computing life with a 2 button mouse on a different system and found moving to the 1 button Mac to be superior ergonomics.

SECOND. If you are after a 2 button choice that is designed to fit in with Apple design, why aren't you petitioning the 3rd party vendors as vigorously as you are petitioning Apple?

mangoman
Sep 19, 2003, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by Frobozz
Rarely do I think anyone could be this brazen about their own personal agenda. Many usability gurus believe their insight and experience is the only solution... and it seems that Jobs has convinced himself that 2 buttons are confusing.

Why?

While I will agree that one button to a computer novice must be an easier concept to grasp, it quickly has dimishing returns. The moment I understand what a single click _is_, I can begin to understand what other clicks are, and what they can do. I have a hard time believing that people in this day and age don't understand a "contextual" click. Again, we're talking about people who have grown up with computers all, or most, of their life.

Jobs has made the cardinal mistake of insisting something stay the same against all public opinion. I can't think of a single person that thinks control-clicking something is more intuitive than clicking a right mouse button. Not these days. Maybe in the days of the classic Mac... but not now. Hell, put a sticker on the right mouse button that says "option" if you're that concerned.

The metaphore of contexual commands is, in my opinion, the most important. But from a mechanical and ergonomic standpoint, which some may argue is even more important, it is easier to have a second mouse button. The only way it helps to have a single mouse button is by dispersing the pressure required for a click to multiple fingers... thus less carpal tunnel and repetitive stress problems. Aside from that, I can't think of a single good reason to stick with the single button mouse.

Well said, brother... well said.

scem0
Sep 19, 2003, 08:18 PM
Apple is really dumb sometimes.

That's really all I can say about this.

They would sell a lot more of the current wireless mice if they had 2 buttons and a scroll wheel. It is that simple...

sigh - so what if apple doesn't release one. I can get a better one for less from MS.

scem0

maka
Sep 19, 2003, 08:34 PM
It seems to me that a 2+ button mouse with scroll wheel is more suited to the casual user, not the pro. You can lay back, forget the keyboard, drink your cola while you surf the net with your scroll wheel. But the Mac is a Computer, not a Console, or a TV Web Browser.

The simple one button mouse is intuitive, you use it as a hand in the screen, you point, you click or grab and drag around. If you want to do something else, you have your other hand in the keyboard (at least most "pro" users would) which can modify what the mouse click does, with the same modifier keys you use for keyboard shortcuts, that as has been said, is the fastest way to work.

It's simple. It works, and there's no reason why Apple should change it because they designed it like this for a reason.

You are free to get another mouse if you want, but Apple doesn't have to change their design.

(BTW, this was mentioned before, but here it goes again: wireless ONE button mouse, on the top ten at the apple store... )

MacBandit
Sep 19, 2003, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by maka
It seems to me that a 2+ button mouse with scroll wheel is more suited to the casual user, not the pro. You can lay back, forget the keyboard, drink your cola while you surf the net with your scroll wheel. But the Mac is a Computer, not a Console, or a TV Web Browser.

The simple one button mouse is intuitive, you use it as a hand in the screen, you point, you click or grab and drag around. If you want to do something else, you have your other hand in the keyboard (at least most "pro" users would) which can modify what the mouse click does, with the same modifier keys you use for keyboard shortcuts, that as has been said, is the fastest way to work.

It's simple. It works, and there's no reason why Apple should change it because they designed it like this for a reason.

You are free to get another mouse if you want, but Apple doesn't have to change their design.

(BTW, this was mentioned before, but here it goes again: wireless ONE button mouse, on the top ten at the apple store... )

I've never figured out how you can sit back and just use a computer with just a mouse. I find it much easier to just use the keyboard and no mouse in comparison. Simply mousing from one side of the screen to another takes a lot more time then hitting a simple key command that would probably do the process you're wanting to do anyhow. Also if your surfing your going to have a need to type an address or fill out a form or something at some point so you might as well toss the mouse and learn the key commands.

maka
Sep 19, 2003, 08:46 PM
I've never figured out how you can sit back and just use a computer with just a mouse. I find it much easier to just use the keyboard and no mouse in comparison. Simply mousing from one side of the screen to another takes a lot more time then hitting a simple key command that would probably do the process you're wanting to do anyhow. Also if your surfing your going to have a need to type an address or fill out a form or something at some point so you might as well toss the mouse and learn the key commands.

Hmmm.... It was just an impression I got from some of the coments on the thread... A picture came to my head of a mouse as a gamepad :)

scan300
Sep 19, 2003, 09:08 PM
I've read comments that Apple should provide choice in this manner. Why don't PC vendors offer me a one button mouse with my choice of PC? It has to be 2 buttons or more.

The function of a mouse is to point to some metaphor on the screen and initiate it's meaning with a click. It also has the function of click and hold to move items, draw, select multiple items. These 2 things are the primary purpose of a mouse because the keyboard cannot do it as well.

With my one button mouse I have a choice of how my hand can conduct these events. I also can quickly move this mouse to my other hand, and use it the same way.

A multi mutton mouse forces me to do these processes repeatedly with my index finger, while managing to keep my other fingers to stay still and not interfere.

A right button and a scroll wheel is a convenient extra for some processes which are already handled by other parts of the UI. There are also other options to control your computer quickly which a mouse can't beat ie keyboard shortcuts.

So I am skeptical of the argument that contextual menus are a high priority in UI design, without a large amount of data and a raft of studies to support it. For some people it's a good thing. Others may use it less. I only need to use them about >5% of the time. I use keyboard shortcuts to do things faster.

There are implications for Apple if they offer their own choice of a 2 button mouse which hasn't been discussed in this forum. They will have to add alternatives in their documentation to explain the difference between mice. This will create more complicated documentation, with more choices for a beginner to contend with than a PC. Apple would have to explain the differences in the devices, making it more complicated than a PC to understand the function of a mouse.

It would therefore make better sense then for Apple to make only a 2 button mouse; to drop the 1 button altogether so there would be consistency across the product range and restore simplicity. 1 button fans would have to turn to a 3rd party to get their specialist 1b mouse. These would only be advanced users, as beginners would just take what was bundled with the computer.

I think that the current model is best. Apple allows you to add your own custom input devices, from vendors as they invent them. You could have your QWERTY mouse if you so desired.

Viva la 1 button mouse.

asphalt-proof
Sep 19, 2003, 10:26 PM
Yes, because the professional or even the avid user is going to have their own concept of what they need in a mouse or an input device. Not one mouse can satisfy all these people so it's better that Apple supply the simplest form and allow the other people choose what they want from the vast selection of 3rd party mice and input devices.
----------------------------------------------------
I read this whole thread and found the above to be the most compelling reason for Apple to stay with the one-button mouse. That being said, I still think that it asking a lot of potential switchers to memorize a bunch of arcane keyboard commands in order to navigate the GUI. All other things considered, that seems more Microsoftian than Apple. Honestly, what's easier to teach grandm: the difference between a left click and right click, or the difference between a click and command key, cloverleaf key, apple key etc. ad nauseum. This reminds me of a lecture by a woman who was talking about the use of jargon to keep out other women from the tech fields that are predominately male. IF I am on the phone with grandma and tell here to click the mouse button and hold down the command key at the same time, she gonna have questions about why, and which key is the command key. WIth the 2 button i say click the right button of the mouse (look down, Grandma... Grandma?? Grandma!! STOP THAT CHOKING GRANDMA, SPIT IT OUT... SPIT IT OUT!! i SAID HOLD THE APPLE KEY, NOT EAT THE APPLE KEY!! ooh God is there anyone ther who knows the heimlich?? GRANDMA! GRANDMA!! She's dead!! Oh my God I killed her! I hope your happy Apple, it all your fault and your damn keyboard commands!!
MacBandit inadvertantly hit iit on the head when he said that "you might as well toss the mouse and learn the keyboard." Yeah, that's a real good slogan to use in a switch ad. (I hope i didn't take it out of context... but it just screamed mac elitism). Once again, the mouse is supposed to make using the GUI easier, by your logic, it seems command line would be better. You never need a mouse then!!
Its funny because of those defending the mouse, some are saying that's its for the lowest common denominator, and others for the the power users. I guess I feel that if 95% of the computing world is using a 2 button mouse, what really is the lowest common denominator. Again, that makes a great switch ad. "Apple, we cater to the really stupid!" (Not that 95% of the computing world is smarter than Apple... in fact wasn't there an article stating that Mac users tended to be more educated and made more money?)
I have to agree that the UI contextual interfaces could become very messy if there were 2 button standard. But UI quality varies from company to company anyway. Some contextual menues on Window machines are really really really crappy, and some are pretty good. That never made me want to toss my mouse out.
I realize the logistical nightmare that could result with offering different mouse configurations for a laptop. But it doesn't make me want one (two-button mouse) any less. By the way, there was a thread last week about a hack that re-configured the laptop mouse to act as a scroll wheel, and some other cool things. It was on versiontracker. Its called the sidetrack 0.7. When I buy my first powerbook, I will definately be using this.
Gotta go. (I need to dispose of a inconviently dead relative.)

Off topic note: Wouldn't it be really ironic if in the future Microsoft's sole product was mice and keyboards sold to Apple. I really think that Microsoft mice and keyboards are the best in the buisness. The rest of their stuff they can toos.

LegionCSUF
Sep 20, 2003, 12:42 AM
Originally posted by scan300
I've read comments that Apple should provide choice in this manner. Why don't PC vendors offer me a one button mouse with my choice of PC? It has to be 2 buttons or more.

Because, unlike the very vocal potential market of Mac users screaming for a 2 button mouse, there is absolutely zero demand in the PC world for a 1-button mouse.

PC users often see the 1-button mouse as regressive. Another hurdle for Mac acceptance.

I think that the current model is best. Apple allows you to add your own custom input devices, from vendors as they invent them. [/B]

It'd be nice if Apple at least offered a 3rd-party mouse as a replacement for theirs.

Still, ultimately, one can easily buy a 3rd party mouse and use it. Us laptop touchpad users, sadly, have no such workaround.

MacBandit
Sep 20, 2003, 01:30 AM
Originally posted by asphalt-proof
..................MacBandit inadvertantly hit iit on the head when he said that "you might as well toss the mouse and learn the keyboard." Yeah, that's a real good slogan to use in a switch ad. (I hope i didn't take it out of context... but it just screamed mac elitism).................

It wasn't Mac elitism but it probably is the voice of computer experience. The whole object of an input device on a computer is to perform a task with least amount of movement/effort thus cutting down overall time on repetitive tasks. There is no better input device out there then keyboard for such a task. Please don't take this wrong but if you are advanced computer user wanting a 3+ button mouse your missing out on the fastest input method that being key commands. There is almost always a reason to keep at least one hand on the keyboard so why not learn some key commands so you can cut down on your overall mousing time. Yes moving the cursor from one side of the screen to another does take too long when you can hit a simple key command to perform the action needed in most cases. I don't want this to sound elitist or anything I'm just pointing out a simple fact. Yes, it's an advanced skill but if you user your computer all the time it doesn't take long to pick up on a couple a week and soon you'll know so many key commands that you will hardly ever need the mouse.

Except to press submit because for some reason Safari is stupid and doesn't let you tab between action buttons.

edenwaith
Sep 20, 2003, 02:43 AM
On an off-topic note, I noticed that Macbandit is from Springfield, Oregon, home of the Simpsons. Sorry, that's not correct. The Simpsons' Springfield is in Hawaii. Everyone should realize that. :)

As far as mice go, if Apple does or does not make a multi-button mouse, it doesn't matter to me. I still go and buy multi-button mice. Logitech mice have worked pretty well for me, so why worry?

However there some people who could benefit from just one mouse button. People who are not used to computers (young children or older people, for example) might enjoy the simplicity of a one button mouse. However, people who enjoy the flexibility of a multi-button mouse can do so.

MacBandit
Sep 20, 2003, 02:50 AM
Originally posted by edenwaith
On an off-topic note, I noticed that Macbandit is from Springfield, Oregon, home of the Simpsons. Sorry, that's not correct. The Simpsons' Springfield is in Hawaii. Everyone should realize that. :)


My information comes from an interview with Matt Groening. He lived in Springfield, OR for a while and that is why it is primarily based here though he says the people surrounding area are based on towns he has visited all over the U.S..

edenwaith
Sep 20, 2003, 03:07 AM
Originally posted by MacBandit
I've never figured out how you can sit back and just use a computer with just a mouse. I find it much easier to just use the keyboard and no mouse in comparison.

Ah, the classic keyboard versus mouse debate: which is better? It's also along the same lines of the command-line vs. GUI. In the end, each have their own particular benefits and drawbacks, and it's the combination between the two which can bring out the full power in a system.

If I'm using a text editor, particular keyboard shortcuts can often perform actions quicker than taking the mouse, moving to a particular command an selecting it. However, the mouse can do other tasks, such as highlighting specific areas easier than just a keyboard. Some people live and die by vi, mostly because they learned so many of its little tricks and quirks that they wouldn't want to go without it otherwise.

Generally using a GUI OS with a mouse works very well for most of us, but there are odd times when using a command-line can prove a faster solution. If I wanted to delete all of the images from a folder of 1000 images which contain the number 1 in them, I could easily perform this with a simple one-line command, but doing this with just the mouse would be a real chore in finding all of the correct files and then selecting them and trashing them. Not real fun.

edenwaith
Sep 20, 2003, 03:09 AM
Originally posted by MacBandit
My information comes from an interview with Matt Groening. He lived in Springfield, OR for a while and that is why it is primarily based here though he says the people surrounding area are based on towns he has visited all over the U.S..

Ah, is that where the name comes from. :) At a presentation, a person from the crowd asked one of the writers of The Simpsons where Springfield was, and he replied Hawaii. Makes sense, doesn't it? Besides the lack of tropical flora, weather, beaches...hmmm...just about everything, I guess.

mrsebastian
Sep 20, 2003, 07:14 AM
it's pretty amazing how passionate everyone is about this debate we got going here. as i mentioned before, i think it really comes down to personal preference.

the one point i think apple is really missing (as well as some in our debate), is that apple could make a quite a bit of money by providing a 2 button/wheel mouse. if you like the one button mouse that's great, but for others that want more buttons, why not have it available and not give money away to third party companies and m$.

zach
Sep 20, 2003, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by Larshart
It is evident that Apple should definitely consider making a "2+ Button Scroll Mouse", just look.

This discussion group has over 140 postings, as compared with the "Panther Q & A" discussion which has around 25 at this time.

The numbers don't lie, this has definitely struck a nerve in the community.

Hey dude, just because it has struck a nerve doesn't necessarily mean Apple should make a 2 button mouse. I'm not gonna use all the old arguments, but not everyone here wants one, me as an example. I hate two button mice. It is a fact of life for me. Sure, maybe 50 people have posted in this thread, and maybe 25 of them want a two button mouse (and maybe my numbers are off) but just because a thread about two button mice has more posts than a thread about panther doesn't mean mice are more important.

sonofslim
Sep 20, 2003, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by maka
The simple one button mouse is intuitive, you use it as a hand in the screen, you point, you click or grab and drag around.

brilliant! thank you, thank you, thank you! i have been waiting for someone to state that so elegantly.

in a nutshell, i think that's the key to apple's decision: it's to preserve the simplicity and elegance of the hand = mouse = cursor relationship.

of course, it's a whole 'nother question whether or not apple should provide an option for those of us who have learned to operate above and beyond that simple metaphor. (and learning to modify that simple interaction with either key-modifier or alternate mouse button is less intuitive, although by how much i can't say. and i'm not qualified to say which type of modifier is "easier" or "more intuitive.")

Anonymous Freak
Sep 20, 2003, 12:25 PM
I like multiple buttons, and I like scrolling.

So, unless Apple (note 'unless', rather than 'until',) releases a two-button-plus-scroll mouse, I'll stick with someone else's. I love my Kensington Studio Mouse Wireless, by the way. If it was Bluetooth, it would be absolutely perfect in every way (that matters to me.) Three buttons (I have the little third button mapped to Cmd-[, which is 'Back' in most Apple programs,) and a scroll pad. For those that haven't seen one, the scroll pad is a touch-sensitive area where a scroll wheel should be. It's the same basic technology as the scroll wheel on the iPod, and the trackpad on notebooks. You just run your finger along it to scroll, or press and hold lightly at the top or bottom to continuously scroll.

Mine is the currently-available model that has a USB receiver that doubles as a charging station. I would gladly give up the recharging base and use my own rechargeables to get Bluetooth, though.

Plus, it matches the color of my 12" PowerBook. (Which will hopefully be traded in on a 1.25GHz 15" soon.)

When we get the PowerMac G5 for my wife, I'll probably go for the Apple wireless keyboard and mouse, but not for me. (My wife wants a 1.8GHz G5, with 23" Cinema HD. We won't be getting it until early next year, though, so hopefully they'll have both a faster tower, and a matching display, by then. For that matter, hopefully they'll have a keyboard and mouse that matches the Al enclosures.)

MacBandit
Sep 20, 2003, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by ehurtley
I like multiple buttons, and I like scrolling.

So, unless Apple (note 'unless', rather than 'until',) releases a two-button-plus-scroll mouse, I'll stick with someone else's. I love my Kensington Studio Mouse Wireless, by the way. If it was Bluetooth, it would be absolutely perfect in every way (that matters to me.) Three buttons (I have the little third button mapped to Cmd-[, which is 'Back' in most Apple programs,) and a scroll pad. For those that haven't seen one, the scroll pad is a touch-sensitive area where a scroll wheel should be. It's the same basic technology as the scroll wheel on the iPod, and the trackpad on notebooks. You just run your finger along it to scroll, or press and hold lightly at the top or bottom to continuously scroll.

Mine is the currently-available model that has a USB receiver that doubles as a charging station. I would gladly give up the recharging base and use my own rechargeables to get Bluetooth, though.

While I have been a major voice for Apples position I too have a Kensington StudioMouse though it is a wired version. They didn't have the wireless when I bought mine. I too think it's the perfect mouse. Now here's where I verify my previous statements. If Apple came out with a mouse for the Mac with two buttons and a scroll wheel I would probably stick with this mouse because it fits me so well. That's the issue to me. Why should Apple compete in a market that is already so saturated with good mice. Also mice and input devices are like buying shoes. There is no one mouse that will fit everyone. Those that think any mouse will do probably haven't tried a few and found that weight, size, shape have a big difference on comfort and speed. I think Apple has already figured this out so they supply the simplest mouse they can and if someone wants something else they have a wide selection of 3rd party mice to chose from.

phasornc
Sep 20, 2003, 07:56 PM
I have just three words on the subject of whether the "common man" can learn how to use a 2 button wired pointing device.

Playstation
XBox
GameCube

Each one has 8 buttons and 2 joysticks on it pad, yet somehow millions of people figure them out and master them. AND the buttons all do different things in different games. Let's face it Asteroids killed all arguments that people wouldn't figure out what to do with two buttons

Phil Of Mac
Sep 20, 2003, 09:22 PM
When Apple can do something better and wants to do it better, Apple does it better. In other cases, they don't. If you can afford a Mac, you can afford another mouse. And frankly, having Steve Jobs as the CEO of Apple is worth the trouble of buying an extra mouse. This is the man that saved Apple. He thinks of the Mac as a work of art, and not just a product. So we can expect him to be stubborn about it. The Mona Lisa was not painted to meet customer demand.

Originally posted by Rustus Maximus
Hmmmm...to heck with four models...[i]how about FOUR BUTTONS?? Huh? Huuuuh?

Why don't you just make a keyboard that you can easily push around, and add another row of keys for mouse functions? Yes, I know it's a dumb idea. I used to use a four button mouse, but came to realize that it was a dumb idea too.

OK, modifier buttons aren't any more intuitive than second mouse buttons. However, they do keep your hand on the keyboard (which cuts down on transition time between mouse and keyboard.) Also, for new users, there's something even more intuitive than a second mouse button: NOT USING CONTEXTUAL MENUS AT ALL.

Contextual menus and keyboard shortcuts are just that, shortcuts, that you learn as you become more proficient at computers. A one button mouse provides for an easier learning curve. A two button mouse by itself may not be that hard, but if you're trying to learn how to do 100 different things at the same time, any added complexity is gonna be hard. What Apple is (rightly) doing is setting the learning curve to start low. After that, you can move up.

The killer app for multibutton mice is none other than one-handed web browsing. That's right! The purpose of a two-button scroll mouse is to look at porn. :D

Frobozz
Sep 20, 2003, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by DGFan

Lots and lots of people don't use contextual menus and can't really grasp the concept. And they certainly can't grasp multiple buttons. These are people who are afraid of their VCR's but really want to use a computer anyway because of the benefits it brings. There are good reasons. Just because you don't personally approve of them does not negate their existence.

It's a good thing I didn't advocate their extinction then.

My desire to see Apple introduce a 3 button mouse (2 with scroll) is not solely based on my industry experience. While you are correct-- that most web savvy users who participate in polls and forums are most likely to want one-- they want one in HUGE majority. According to this poll,

http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/main_news.cfm?NewsID=6359

... only 14% want to keep a one button mouse.

I agree that if you were to poll most non-web-savvy users they would say the one button mouse is fine... but to say that I'm basing it on "all people under 30 get it" is a gross misinterpretation. If you're under 50 years old you've grown up with GUI/mouse computers most of your life. My 55 year old father understands it perfectly, and so does my 78 year old grandfather.

Not having a 2 button mouse option is EMBARRASING to the professional crowd or to switchers. One button mice are by their nature simple and exceedingly limited. I am a HUGE supported of RSS reduction with a one-button mouse, since it's entire surface is a button.

Let the consumer models come with a consumer one button mouse. Let professional machines come with the (now standard) 3 button.

rjwill246
Sep 20, 2003, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by fred
Oh really....it doesn't seem to bother Apple in the least to trample on territory of 3rd party developers or companies when it suits them (i.e. iPhoto, iTunes etc, etc)

There is more than a subtle difference here. The Mac user would have little useful iApp equivalents if it were not for Apple's own. On the other hand (yes, I know I should have started off 'on the ONE hand') Steve J can have his cake and eat it too. The 3rd party mice out there are fantastic from MS to Kensington's. So, SJ knows full well that the criticism is really empty bluster-- you CAN get what you want-- it's just not Apple's. And he, SJ, gets to keep making 'one-clickers.'

So, to those who think you're being f**d, you do not have to expose yourself in an intromissive posture. SJ isn't going there!! So move on!

Roller
Sep 20, 2003, 10:19 PM
As I think someone else posted along the way, a two-button mouse with both buttons set to function identically by default would be the ideal solution.

Beginners wouldn't have to worry about which button to click, since both would do the same thing. More advanced users could program either button to do other things, such as control click. Unlike Windows, though, it would be their choice.

I can't think of any downside.

hayesk
Sep 20, 2003, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by fred
Yeah I can buy a $20 POS (piece of *****) but it will be mismatched with my overpriced Apple system which, incidentally, includes Apple's single button mouse which I paid for and don't want

You can buy a $20 two button scrolly wheel mouse that looks almost exactly like Apple's - except the light is blue and not red.

Buy that, sell the Apple mouse on eBay for $30, and you're up $10. What the heck is the problem?!?

Apple can either include a one or two button mouse. For something to be included with the system, it should cater to the novices before the experts, because the experts know of the alternatives. Besides, there are plenty experts that prefer the one button mouse as well.

Phil Of Mac
Sep 20, 2003, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by Roller
As I think someone else posted along the way, a two-button mouse with both buttons set to function identically by default would be the ideal solution.

Beginners wouldn't have to worry about which button to click, since both would do the same thing. More advanced users could program either button to do other things, such as control click. Unlike Windows, though, it would be their choice.

I can't think of any downside.

I can.

What's the use of having two completely identical buttons? It's a stupid idea. No sane designer would give something a vestigial...mouse button.

SiliconAddict
Sep 21, 2003, 04:01 AM
Originally posted by rjwill246
Steve J can have his cake and eat it too. The 3rd party mice out there are fantastic from MS to Kensington's.

So, to those who think you're being f**d, you do not have to expose yourself in an intromissive posture. SJ isn't going there!! So move on!

I'll move on when I can replace the mouse on a PowerBook with a MS mouse or Kensington. Until that day it is an issue and will be an issue for anyone who wants a laptop without dragging along a blasted external mouse.

SiliconAddict
Sep 21, 2003, 04:19 AM
Originally posted by MacBandit
I've never figured out how you can sit back and just use a computer with just a mouse. I find it much easier to just use the keyboard and no mouse in comparison.

Key word here: " I"

Simply mousing from one side of the screen to another takes a lot more time then hitting a simple key command that would probably do the process you're wanting to do anyhow. Also if your surfing your going to have a need to type an address or fill out a form or something at some point so you might as well toss the mouse and learn the key commands.

Well dang. Why don't we all go back to BBS's and the Lynx browser. In fact lets go back to the command prompt. Enough of this GUI experiment. I want my c:\> again!!! [Please note tongue firmly planted in cheek.]

Do you really believe that hitting a series of key commands is THAT much faster then going to a drop down menu and selecting from that?!?! You save what? Less then 2-3 seconds? I'm fairly sure in the grand scheme of things in one's day you wouldn't be increasing your productivity by 300% with keyboard shortcuts. Yes it would speed certain tasks up but not by that much. The reasons for the GUI was to get away from needing a keyboard interface and to make things simpler. The keyboard at this point is used for entering data and not usually for OS\application interaction.

At least not until you start playing at the command line where your keyboard becomes way more powerful then the mouse.

MacBandit
Sep 21, 2003, 05:39 AM
Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Key word here: " I"



Well dang. Why don't we all go back to BBS's and the Lynx browser. In fact lets go back to the command prompt. Enough of this GUI experiment. I want my c:\> again!!! [Please note tongue firmly planted in cheek.]

Do you really believe that hitting a series of key commands is THAT much faster then going to a drop down menu and selecting from that?!?! You save what? Less then 2-3 seconds? I'm fairly sure in the grand scheme of things in one's day you wouldn't be increasing your productivity by 300% with keyboard shortcuts. Yes it would speed certain tasks up but not by that much. The reasons for the GUI was to get away from needing a keyboard interface and to make things simpler. The keyboard at this point is used for entering data and not usually for OS\application interaction.

At least not until you start playing at the command line where your keyboard becomes way more powerful then the mouse.

Well it wouldn't save a great deal of time but what purpose is multiple mouse buttons for if not to save time? I'm just saying that the keyboard is even faster then that.

maka
Sep 21, 2003, 07:18 AM
Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Key word here: " I"



Well dang. Why don't we all go back to BBS's and the Lynx browser. In fact lets go back to the command prompt. Enough of this GUI experiment. I want my c:\> again!!! [Please note tongue firmly planted in cheek.]

Do you really believe that hitting a series of key commands is THAT much faster then going to a drop down menu and selecting from that?!?! You save what? Less then 2-3 seconds? I'm fairly sure in the grand scheme of things in one's day you wouldn't be increasing your productivity by 300% with keyboard shortcuts. Yes it would speed certain tasks up but not by that much. The reasons for the GUI was to get away from needing a keyboard interface and to make things simpler. The keyboard at this point is used for entering data and not usually for OS\application interaction.

At least not until you start playing at the command line where your keyboard becomes way more powerful then the mouse.

It's not only the command line stuff. I can only speak for myself, but it's an example, and am sure this can be extended to other apps. In Pro Tools (a very intuitive program) you can do everything with the mouse. Switching between different tools, zooming in/out, and almost every other action. This makes it easy to learn. But there are also keyboard shortcuts for all of them, so the fastest way to work is with one hand on the keyboard and the other on the mouse, and the mouse only for what is really useful. Pointing, selecting, grabbing.

Of course you could fit some of the shortcuts on a multibutton mouse, but how many buttons do you need to fit them all? It's simply not useful.

Roller
Sep 21, 2003, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
I can.

What's the use of having two completely identical buttons? It's a stupid idea. No sane designer would give something a vestigial...mouse button.

You missed the point.

The two buttons would only function identically by default - out of the box, it would work like a one-button mouse. But the buttons would be programmable like any multiple-button mouse.

JSRockit
Sep 21, 2003, 01:56 PM
Apple would have switched to a 2 button mouse by now if they were going to/ I say keep the one button, but at least slap a scroll wheel on it.

Phil Of Mac
Sep 21, 2003, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Do you really believe that hitting a series of key commands is THAT much faster then going to a drop down menu and selecting from that?!?!

Yes.

Something that in the larger scheme of things is VERY time-wasting is constantly transitioning between the keyboard and the mouse. If you can keep your hands on the keyboard and use the requisite key commands, you will be much faster.

Originally posted by Roller
You missed the point.

The two buttons would only function identically by default - out of the box, it would work like a one-button mouse. But the buttons would be programmable like any multiple-button mouse.

I didn't miss the point.

Having that happen by default is incredibly dumb, because by default, you'd have two buttons that do the same thing. That's confusing. Yes, you can change it later, but that doesn't help the novice user any. And remember, the original ideal of the Macintosh was so the novice user could use it easily.

Roller
Sep 21, 2003, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
I didn't miss the point.

Having that happen by default is incredibly dumb, because by default, you'd have two buttons that do the same thing. That's confusing. Yes, you can change it later, but that doesn't help the novice user any. And remember, the original ideal of the Macintosh was so the novice user could use it easily.

How is it confusing? From the user's point of view, it's like having one large button that you can click with either your index or middle finger, just like you do with a one-button mouse. When my kids started using the Mac, I programmed both buttons to function identically for them, so they didn't have to worry about right or left clicking. Worked great.

tazznb
Sep 21, 2003, 04:18 PM
He should also AT LEAST GIVE HIS PRO CUSTOMERS (actually ANY customer) THE O_P_T_I_O_N to purchase a two-button mouse by way of BTO.

I think that perhaps one-button mouse users feel insecure that the miserable 1-buttons will eventually disappear.

I mean... why are some of you fellas gettin your panties in a knot to have them sell BOTH 1 & 2 buttom mouse. It's not going to end the sales of the one-button mouse!

tazznb
Sep 21, 2003, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by Roller
You missed the point.

The two buttons would only function identically by default - out of the box, it would work like a one-button mouse. But the buttons would be programmable like any multiple-button mouse.

Good idea

mrsebastian
Sep 21, 2003, 04:53 PM
what is it with you stubborn one-button mouse freaks! i just want the option to buy one after market one. which i have, but i'd much rather buy one from apple for several reasons, for one i love apple's design and quality, but more so in support of apple.

while we're at it, f#ck the mouse! i want a pointer that's controlled by the movement of my eye, a voice activated command system with dictation, and a virtual glove for apps where you need more control. that way i don't have to use my hands at all. furthermore i want my mac to be about the size of an airport card and i want my apple cinema display to be 60" and mounted on the wall. that way i can surf the net and do my work from the couch... now that would be intuitive compared to the old one button mouse.

one last thing, the good 'ol one button is about as fresh and usefull as mac os 9... people get over it, just give me the option to purchase a two button mouse from apple!

a little fuel for the fire ; )

Phil Of Mac
Sep 21, 2003, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by Roller
How is it confusing? From the user's point of view, it's like having one large button that you can click with either your index or middle finger, just like you do with a one-button mouse. When my kids started using the Mac, I programmed both buttons to function identically for them, so they didn't have to worry about right or left clicking. Worked great.

It begs the question, "Why does the damn thing have 2 buttons if they do the same thing?"

And BTW...sure, BTO a 2-button mouse. I'm fine with that. I think an Apple 2-button mouse would be absolutely sexy, just like anything else Apple makes.

Optimally, I want a pair of goggles that have a virtual 50" widescreen that allows me to move the pointer with my eyes, and click left or right by winking either eye.

On second thought...naah. Just give me the goggles.

jimjiminyjim
Sep 21, 2003, 08:51 PM
Well, I don't have a degree in psychology, but by my estimation, this arguement is exactly what apple needs. If I were trying to get you to buy my computers, I'd be giddy at the fact that you're arguing over mouse buttons. It would signify two things: You want and love mac computers, and you aren't going to be bashing anothers mac choice, because you're spending your bashing energy (and all people do it to some extent) on the topic of mice.

Don't you feel like suckers now?

backdraft
Sep 22, 2003, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by fred
LOL...simplistic is DEFINITELY the right term ...although probably not the one you wanted to use :)

It seems that Apple is still displaying the NIH (not invented here) syndrome which was so prevalent in the late 80s and early and mid 90s.... heck Microsoft is set to soon introduce a mouse that scrolls horizontally.... can you spell STONE AGE

So that explains usb, pci, pci-x, hyper-transport, fast user switching, bluetooth, etc...

;)

Ėbackdraft

P.S. Apple should offer a multi-button mouse + scroll wheel as long as they keep the shape and height of the Apple Pro Mouse (I hate those mice with the big bulge in the middle... uncomfortable, the Apple Pro mouse is the right height). Heck, sell both and let the customer choose; Single or Multi button.

iPC
Sep 22, 2003, 03:10 PM
Considering that products like Shake require 3 button mouse... Apple is selling hardware that requires additional hardware purchase to use it's software properly. That seems a little silly to me. Macs are for artists and such, right? Who uses multi-button mice more than anyone else? Artists. I can't imagine using PS with a one button mouse.

DesterWallaboo
Sep 22, 2003, 04:52 PM
First thing I do when I buy my Macs. Get all googly-eyed over how beautiful the new mouse is... then... toss the sucker into the storage closet. Whip out my new 3-button Logitech optical mouse... attach the baby and get back to work.

MacBandit
Sep 22, 2003, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by iPC
Considering that products like Shake require 3 button mouse... Apple is selling hardware that requires additional hardware purchase to use it's software properly. That seems a little silly to me. Macs are for artists and such, right? Who uses multi-button mice more than anyone else? Artists. I can't imagine using PS with a one button mouse.

Almost every digital artist I have seen or met uses a tablet and could care less about a mouse. Should Apple include tablets with every Pro Mac?

DesterWallaboo
Sep 22, 2003, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by MacBandit
Almost every digital artist I have seen or met uses a tablet and could care less about a mouse. Should Apple include tablets with every Pro Mac?


I do professional film and video for a living.... I use both a mouse and a tablet. And yes, a three-button mouse is essential for various aspects of the job.

MacBandit
Sep 22, 2003, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by DesterWallaboo
I do professional film and video for a living.... I use both a mouse and a tablet. And yes, a three-button mouse is essential for various aspects of the job.

Multi-Button trackballs are also popular.

DesterWallaboo
Sep 22, 2003, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by MacBandit
Multi-Button trackballs are also popular.


I see trackballs primarily being used by audio engineers. To prevent themselves from hitting sliders on their work desks during a recording or mixing session.

radhak
Sep 24, 2003, 08:28 AM
Personally, after being a power PC user for the past 15 years, the 1-button will be refreshingly simple (i am waiting for my next pay-check to order my first Mac).
A fully-keyboard-person, I have never found compelling use for the scroll-wheel even when I had it at work (never bought it at home), and now with a 5-year old at home, seeing her struggle with many an inadvertant right-click makes me irritably wish that MS had offered a single-button :mad: [ Don't start on how I can disable the right-button; it does not work many places; also, most of the PC software is built around the availability of the 2nd button].
My parents have used only PCs since I intro-ed them, and I am looking forward to exposing them to the simplicity of the Mac, beginning with the mouse. Once Apple starts offering the 2nd button there will be software that cannot be fully exploited with a single button, and there goes your 'simple'!

My circle (of family and friends ) is 100% PC, but other than those with jobs in IT, very few use the right button : the menu is where they go every time. I have even seen that some get flustered when the right-button clicks by mistake ;)

I can empathize with the frustration of a power-user who is heavily dependent on a particular style of working, like the more complex mouse, but I do not believe power-users are in any way 'the majority'.

Just because the vocal majority in these forums wants more buttons does not make it a universal demand, more likely an 'elite' one. So I am not surprised Apple is ignoring this.

markie
Sep 27, 2003, 08:05 PM
For a company which makes superior products, they sure use an inferior mouse... The right button and scroll wheel are invaluable. Sure, they are simply "conveniences" since both can be done with either keyboard-click combos, or the scroll bar. However, they sure speed up computer use and make it easier to use a computer with one hand. Why Apple is so anti-ease of use on this one detail I will never understand. Fortunately, you can use any mouse with the new Macs and MacOS X fully supports a two button wheel mouse (which to me is an admission their mouse isn't adequate for everybody, and I'm very glad they'll at least admit that.). Unfortunately, said mouse doesn't look Appley. A nice Logitech is a nice looking, working mouse. But it's so anti-Mac in design.

Jorad
Sep 28, 2003, 04:57 AM
Who really needs a second button on their mouse? Do you really need to have the other hand free for something else (read: 'more sticky')? Unless you've only got one arm, then it is just a simple matter of pressing 'control'.

Think also about the people who mouse with their left hand (They exist I'm told), do you now have to change all your documentation to read "right-click unless you mouse left-handed, then in that case left-click?" Take a gander at your keyboard, would ya? Look! A control key on the left and right hand side!

and finally,
Originally posted by fred
I hate posts that somehow insinuate that we the paying customers are at fault or too finicky.....repeat after me: THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT !!

The customer is not always right. Lee Iococca

phasornc
Sep 29, 2003, 01:11 PM
I'm a lefty and I use my 2 button mouse all time. I have never even bothered to switch buttons. I left click with my middle finger. I find it very easy to switch back and forth between hand, in case one arm starts getting tired.

Amen to the previous poster. Logitech and MS mice look like A$$, next to my shiny Apple keyboard. (btw these clear Apple keyboard should also have an "opaque" option. It's a fact of lift in an office, People eat at their computers and the crumbs end up in the keyboards. They accumulate at the bottom, and are really disgusting. I can't give an old keyboard to someone if there keyboard breaks, becuase, they are too grossed out by someone elses crumbs. Opaque, Opaque, Opaque, out of sight, out of mind)

Anyway I love being able we right click on any document in Windows and have the "Send to" option available. Especially after working tech support I can tell you it is very easy to help a person locate a document and then tell them to right click and choose "send to email recipient" Most people are freaked out that it's so easy to send an attachment that way.

I love the way right clicking cuts down on repetitive mouse movements with right click in windows you almost never "need' to go all the way up the menu bar. And with 1200x1600 monitiors that can be a long trip, even with dynamically accelerating mouse software.

This should be a really simple thing, if you can't figure out the 2nd button don't use it, but why on earth prevent other people from having it. I simply want a cool looking Apple branded 2 button mouse.

Does any know what happened to "tilt-click". I remember someone once saw a refence to it either in an early OS X build or in a late Rhapsody build.

Phil Of Mac
Sep 29, 2003, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by phasornc
I love the way right clicking cuts down on repetitive mouse movements with right click in windows you almost never "need' to go all the way up the menu bar. And with 1200x1600 monitiors that can be a long trip, even with dynamically accelerating mouse software.

Whatever happened to control-click? Two-button mice are nice for gamers and porn surfers, but the average user---wait, that is the average user. Never mind...

markie
Sep 29, 2003, 05:26 PM
"I simply want a cool looking Apple branded 2 button mouse."

With a scroll wheel! The scroll wheel being even more important than the right button, in my opinion.