could we make a car that runs off of alcohol?

[twoodcc]

i was just wondering this last night. i was thinking about how gas prices are so high, and was wondering what else we could use.

i thought, "we get the power from gas when it burns, so what other liquid is flammable?" and alcohol is what i thought of.

after looking it up, it looks like some alcohol is made from Ethanol, and i guess we are already making some cars run off of that.

any thoughts?

[miniConvert]

It's going to be a while before I contemplate putting Bollinger in my car instead of my mouth.

I'd rather ride a bike :D

[sammich]

One for you, one for me, one for you, one for me....
-Homer Simpson at the Gas Station

[zioxide]

indy cars run on methanol iirc

[MongoTheGeek]

i was just wondering this last night. i was thinking about how gas prices are so high, and was wondering what else we could use.

i thought, "we get the power from gas when it burns, so what other liquid is flammable?" and alcohol is what i thought of.

after looking it up, it looks like some alcohol is made from Ethanol, and i guess we are already making some cars run off of that.

any thoughts?

Up until the 1920s it was common for cars to run on Ethanol. Look at some old movies. When the said put Ethyl in the car it was ethanol. Farmers would have their own still and make their own fuel.

[davidwarren]

oil is cheaper right now

[jessica.]

It's going to be a while before I contemplate putting Bollinger Sapphire in my car instead of my mouth.

I'd rather ride a bike :D
Here I fixed miniConvert's post. ;)

[twoodcc]

oil is cheaper right now

are you sure? i'm not talking about drinking alcohol here

i mean, how much does it really cost to make it?

[Abstract]

You want to let your car drink alcohol?

By next week, it'll drive a bit sluggish and be a bit more non-responsive. However, it'll tell you that it's fine.

By next month, it'll show up late and won't even take you to where you need to go.

In 3 months time, it'll be on crack.

[iGav]

any thoughts?

How about making cars lighter and more economical? ;)

[foidulus]

One for you, one for me, one for you, one for me....
-Homer Simpson at the Gas Station

http://youtube.com/watch?v=kpgx_LMgvOY

The obligatory youtube :P

[Rodimus Prime]

are you sure? i'm not talking about drinking alcohol here

i mean, how much does it really cost to make it?

while it might be cheaper per gallon it is not cheaper to us per mile. You loose a lot of hp and miles per gallon going over to ethol. it has a lot less power in it.

[Cloudane]

I always think that alcohol that isn't ingested (or can't be e.g. methanol), is a terrible waste :D

[JNB]

Up until the 1920s it was common for cars to run on Ethanol. Look at some old movies. When the said put Ethyl in the car it was ethanol. Farmers would have their own still and make their own fuel.

Not quite. Although enthanol was well-known (and seen as a replacement or additive in the future) in the 1920's, Ethyl--actually a brand name--was something else entirely, and not as relatively gentle as ethanol.

"Ethyl leaded gasoline is the confusing brand name choice for tetra ethyl lead (TEL), which was an anti-knock (octane boosting) gasoline additive discovered by General Motors researchers on Dec. 9, 1921 and introduced commercially in Ohio on Feb. 2,1923."
Source: http://www.radford.edu/%7Ewkovarik/papers/ethylconflict.html

[Don't panic]

i was just wondering this last night. i was thinking about how gas prices are so high, and was wondering what else we could use.

i thought, "we get the power from gas when it burns, so what other liquid is flammable?" and alcohol is what i thought of.


:confused: jokes apart, there are already engines that work perfectly fine on alcohol, including car engines. Major economic trends (corn growing) are changing because alcohol is becoming an increasingly important fuel.
In Brazil alcohol (from sugar cane) has fueled cars for years, and is used for heating and electricity.
so it's a good idea, but about 30-40 years late ;)

[imac/cheese]

Many all new cars are flex-fuel if I remember correctly meaning they can burn fuel that is up to 85% enthanol (E85). Some places are starting to add ethanol to gasoline-- if you see fuel that is written as E10 or E15 the number corresponds to the percent of the fuel that is ethanol.

Like someone already stated, burning ethanol reduces our HP and fuel efficiency. It is being produced in great quantities in the midwest right now which has caused corn prices to rise quite a bit. Farmers are receiving a lot of government subsidies to produce it.

[Lord Blackadder]

E85 already shows up in gasoline in the US as an additive.

[Stampyhead]

Get a diesel car and it can run on the grease from your deep-fat fryer.

[.JahJahwarrior.]

While running a car on ethanol seems good, it actually has many downsides.

-right now the government is subsidizing corn production for ethanol. They are subsidizing it so that people will make it. Now, that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be mad without government subsidies, but I think it means that if it wasn't subsidized, less would be made. The government is fooling around in the free market, and that's not good. If ethanol was so wonderful, companies would make it without being given government subsidies.

-it takes more energy to make a gallon of ethanol than it puts out. Now, I want to say that this applies mainly to corn ethanol. Cain ethanol is better, but that means importing from Brazil, and everyone thinks that a trade deficit is a bad thing, and Congress won't ever make us use the cheaper, more effeicient stuff unless it's from the US, due to trade protectionism theory. :)

-It doesn't make that much less greenhouse gasses. I'm not certain of numbers, but I want to say that it might even be worse than gas. I know that liquid coal is worse than gas.

-there are millions of miles of pipes in our country. We send lots of products in these pipes. We clean the pipes between "shipments" with several miles of water. We can send gas trhough these pipes, because it doesn't mix with water. We cannot send ethanol through these pipes, because it does. We have to then ship ethanol by plane, boat, rail or truck, which is very expensive, and produced more greenhouse gasses. :)

I am much more fond of a diesel running on grease from Mcdonalds. Personally, I just try not to drive too much. But because I don't support ethanol very much, I still get branded as ane arth hater... :(

[Lord Blackadder]

Ethanol is not the future, purely and simply. Biodiesel is more viable overall because it doesn;t require the same level of refinement, and is easier to obtain as a waste product at the moment.

[MongoTheGeek]

-it takes more energy to make a gallon of ethanol than it puts out. Now, I want to say that this applies mainly to corn ethanol. Cain ethanol is better, but that means importing from Brazil, and everyone thinks that a trade deficit is a bad thing, and Congress won't ever make us use the cheaper, more effeicient stuff unless it's from the US, due to trade protectionism theory. :)

It depends on how you count various things. The most pessimistic numbers for BTU yields in corn ethanol are around .75, the best are around 1.3, depending on who does the math. If you start fermenting the biomass in addition to the the grain (not done here, probably because of the way the subsidies work) the yield goes to between 3 and 5. Bio-Diesel gets similar yields.

-It doesn't make that much less greenhouse gasses. I'm not certain of numbers, but I want to say that it might even be worse than gas. I know that liquid coal is worse than gas.

The advantage comes in that while it releases huge amounts of CO2, all of that came from the atmosphere so it is carbon neutral.

-there are millions of miles of pipes in our country. We send lots of products in these pipes. We clean the pipes between "shipments" with several miles of water. We can send gas trhough these pipes, because it doesn't mix with water. We cannot send ethanol through these pipes, because it does. We have to then ship ethanol by plane, boat, rail or truck, which is very expensive, and produced more greenhouse gasses. :)

Used to. Now they just run the oils through sequentially and like the mystery dum-dums the sell the top and bottom of each run to people who don't care what they burn. Ethanol can now run through.

I am much more fond of a diesel running on grease from Mcdonalds. Personally, I just try not to drive too much. But because I don't support ethanol very much, I still get branded as ane arth hater... :(

Its a great way to reuse the resource and smells oh so yummy running down the road.

[ErikCLDR]

Electric cars are the future.

Fuel cell cars will explode and cost too much right now in R&D and companies don't want to invest too much in it. Gas will obviously disappear, hybrid cars will be around for a while.

[twoodcc]

what about non-ethanol alcohol?

[Lord Blackadder]

Electric cars are the future.

Fuel cell cars will explode and cost too much right now in R&D and companies don't want to invest too much in it. Gas will obviously disappear, hybrid cars will be around for a while.

Not so much...at this point the vast majority of electricity comes from non-sustainable sources, most of which also pose major pollution issues, and that situation will not change for a lifetime or two even by the most optimistic (yet still credible) estimates.

The fuel cells projected for use in automobiles carry their hydrogen inside metals, not in a pressurized cylinder. As such, they are safer than a current automobile's fuel tank.

Unfortunately, as it stands today, we aren't even certain that fuel cells are a viable option...but the possible benefits are worth the cost of finding out...

[twoodcc]

Not so much...at this point the vast majority of electricity comes from non-sustainable sources, most of which also pose major pollution issues, and that situation will not change for a lifetime or two even by the most optimistic (yet still credible) estimates.

The fuel cells projected for use in automobiles carry their hydrogen inside metals, not in a pressurized cylinder. As such, they are safer than a current automobile's fuel tank.

Unfortunately, as it stands today, we aren't even certain that fuel cells are a viable option...but the possible benefits are worth finding out...

that's what i thought

[imac/cheese]

...The advantage comes in that while it releases huge amounts of CO2, all of that came from the atmosphere so it is carbon neutral....

I have always hated the term carbon neutral. Technically burning oil is carbon neutral because it just got it carbon from some natural deposit that got its carbon from some sort of food which got its carbon from the plants that got their carbon from the atmosphere. Of course if we do not burn the oil that carbon will stay in the ground instead of being pumped into the atmosphere.

For some reason our society has really focused on CO2 as the worst culprit of auto exhaust, when, in my opinion, SOx, NOx, and Ozone are much worse offenders. Ethanol releases more ozone into the atmosphere which is much more dangerous than CO2 (at least in the short term).

http://www.relocalize.net/ethanol_pollution_worse_than_gasoline

The Bush administration has even allowed ethanol production plants to pollute more than other plants in order to spur the production of ethanol. The only benefit I see to this fuel is to reduce our dependency on foreign oil and to make our farmers more money -- though it is really only helping corn growers because anyone who feeds their animals corn has to pay additional prices since so much corn is being used to make ethanol. tTis leads to higher beef costs, etc...

[Lord Blackadder]

Ethanol as a fuel is beset with problems - it still produces air pollution, it isn't particularly cheap, and (biggest of all IMHO), it is being produced in short-sighted and non-sustainable ways, negating many of its benefits as an alternative to oil.

Ethanol as a fuel will always be competing with maize or cane for food, which cold become an increasingly big issue since the human population is still growing.

[jessica.]

You want to let your car drink alcohol?

By next week, it'll drive a bit sluggish and be a bit more non-responsive. However, it'll tell you that it's fine.

By next month, it'll show up late and won't even take you to where you need to go.

In 3 months time, it'll be on crack.
Don't forget it'll likely sleep with your best friend. ;)

[n00basaur]

I won't let my car drink and drive.

[princealfie]

drunken car style watch out now.

[twoodcc]

what about non-ethanol alcohol?

there are other types of alcohol aren't there?

[Lord Blackadder]

Yes. There's methanol for one...there is some argument for methanol as a sustainable resource because it can be produced from wood, but it is corrosive to metal so there are challenges to using it in cars. It's also more dangerous to humans than ethanol.

[twoodcc]

Yes. There's methanol for one...there is some argument for methanol as a sustainable resource because it can be produced from wood, but it is corrosive to metal so there are challenges to using it in cars. It's also more dangerous to humans than ethanol.

well i guess that won't work for cars and humans then.

[Sun Baked]

Wouldn't carrying around all those alcoholics to breath into the carburetor create some mileage problems.

[2nyRiggz]

Drunken car with a drunken driver....not a pretty sight.


Bless

[twoodcc]

Drunken car with a drunken driver....not a pretty sight.


Bless

wait, two wrongs don't make a right?

[pooky]

The advantage comes in that while it releases huge amounts of CO2, all of that came from the atmosphere so it is carbon neutral.

Not entirely true. Sure, the actual burning of ethanol is carbon neutral, but the production of it requires huge amounts of fossil fuels. Ethanol in this country comes from corn. Corn is produced on huge factory farms run by diesel tractors. It is fed with massive amounts of fertilizer that are also petroleum-based. If we were to convert all of our tractors and fertilizer plants to use corn-based products instead of oil, we'd make just enough ethanol to run the operation, and barely any extra to use in autos. The process is not currently sustainable - the fossil fuel energy input required is almost as high as the ethanol energy output. That's also why ethanol is always going to be more expensive than oil (without subsidies, of course).

Then there are the other problems associated with factory farming corn. Rapid topsoil loss because the land is used so heavily. Nitrogen pollution leading to dead waterways, blue babies, and dead zones in the gulf from all of that excessive fertilizer. Air pollution problems from all of the diesel being burned near the farms.

Ethanol is not the future. Neither is biodiesel, for that matter, again because the energy input needed to make it viable on a large scale is huge. Works great for a few hippies running their vw van on french fry grease, but we just don't produce enough to run the whole country.

Near term I'm putting my money on nuclear. Oil will get expensive enough we'll have no choice. We use nuclear energy to run our electric grid and use it to either charge electric vehicles or make hydrogen for fuel cell cars. It's a ways off, and things will get awfully expensive before we'll tolerate more nuclear plants being built.

[Gaelic1]

I have driven cars on alcohol in Brazil. They run sluggish with a lot less power than on gasoline. We are presently using corn to make alcohol which has raised its price to feed beef and poultry, thus raising those prices. Also, it is affecting the prices of cereal and other food items that utilize corn syrup and cornmeal. It is very politically correct but economically stupid. I believe the battery operated cars make much more sense. They are good for 240 miles per charge and that is more than most commute in a day. Charge at night when the power grid has extra energy to spare. I read that Toyota is coming out with a Prius that has a plug-in to charge battery, that gives the first 120 miles on just the battery before switching over to gas/battery. This seems the way to go. Forget alcohol!:)

[maccompaq]

Up until the 1920s it was common for cars to run on Ethanol. Look at some old movies. When the said put Ethyl in the car it was ethanol. Farmers would have their own still and make their own fuel.

Tetra-ethyl lead, abbreviated TEL, is an organometallic compound with the formula (CH3CH2)4Pb. Once a common anti-knock additive in gasoline (petrol), TEL usage was largely discontinued because of the toxicity of lead and its disadvantageous effects on catalytic converters. It is still used as an additive in the aviation fuel known as avgas.
TEL was once used extensively as an additive in gasoline (petrol) for its ability to increase the fuel's octane rating (that is, to prevent its premature detonation ("knocking") in the engine) thus allowing the use of higher compression ratios for greater efficiency and power. The use of TEL in gasoline was started in the US while in Europe alcohol was initially used. The advantages of ethyl gasoline from its higher energy content and storage quality eventually led to a universal switch to leaded fuel.

[macjay]

Car running on water:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Rb_rDkwGnU

[eric55lv]

Wouldnt that get people drunk?