Caucasian Club

wdlove · Sep 19, 2003

I think that if Lisa wants to form a caucasian club it should be allowed. What are your thoughts about forming a club where anyone is allowed as a member?

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/education/2493104/detail.html?treets=bos&tml=bos_12pm&ts=T&tmi=bos_12pm_3329_11000109182003

mactastic · Sep 19, 2003

I'd agree. What's good for the goose is good for the gander and all that. Although I do inderstand the argument that almost all the clubs on campus are, by default, caucasion clubs. Still though, if her club does the same thing as the other clubs (ie. helping students meet others like them, educating the general population about the culture etc.) it will be the most boring club and probably won't last long. I mean seriously, how many of us whities need an education in caucasion history, or cultural traditions? Or help meeting other white people? The worst thing to do would be to tell her she can't do it. That would just turn it into a big stinkin controversy.

bousozoku · Sep 19, 2003

She should be able to create the club as long as it's no more subversive than any other ethnic club.

G4scott · Sep 19, 2003

It's ok to have latino clubs and african american clubs, and transgender clubs, but a club for white people? Oh no, that's politically incorrect...

MrMacMan · Sep 19, 2003

Meh, its okay as long as there is no hidden agenda or something.

Like being racist or something.

Go do it.

lmalave · Sep 19, 2003

Well, the courts have already had a lot to say about this issue with regard to fraternities, country clubs, etc. The basic legal principle is that in general it is OK to have a club that is exclusionary, *unless* that club carries with it some sort of elevated social standing. Fraternities, for example, were (are) part of the old-boys club network that continues later in life with country clubs, etc. That's why, whatever Augusta National might think, no country club or fraternity would stand a real chance in court if a woman really wanted to join.

So the basic idea is that a woman excluded from a fraternity is excluded access to power, whereas the same cannot be said of a man excluded from a sorority. The situation is asymmetric. It would be interesting to see how this plays out in court. In some cases, the courts have ruled that a club/organization cannot exclude on the basis of gender, race, religion, etc., but as I said, in some cases they have allowed exclusion because it did not really result in the denial of any kind of social status....

Sayhey · Sep 19, 2003

I wouldn't have any problem with a club that celebrated English, French, German or any other European immigrant cultural experiences, but what is the idea behind a "Caucasian Club"? There is no Caucasian culture or language (unless we are talking Georgia and Armenia.) When we are talking about Black culture we are talking about a specific ethnic experience, I just don't know how a Caucasian Club would work. I suppose it maybe possible, but I would worry that it may also be a way to promote a racist agenda. I don't know Lisa or any of the people who want the club, but there would be red flags that would be raised by the name itself that I would like to see answered.

QCassidy352 · Sep 19, 2003

There is no Caucasian culture or language (unless we are talking Georgia and Armenia.) When we are talking about Black culture we are talking about a specific ethnic experience, I just don't know how a Caucasian Club would work. I suppose it maybe possible, but I would worry that it may also be a way to promote a racist agenda.[/B]

I disagree. How is there any more of a "black" culture than a caucasian culture? People with "black" skin can come from the Carribean, South America, Africa, or they could have been in the US for 8 generations. Even people from any one of those regions (eg. different parts of Africa) may have little or no cultural commonalities. Where exactly is the common ethnic basis there?

There may not be such a thing as common caucasian culture, but nor is there a common black culture or "ethnic experience."

Why is it that it's ok for some people to be proud of their heritage, but when other people have exactly the same sentiments they are racists?

That said, I think this club, (and it's Black and Asian equivalents, btw) are really stupid and devisive. But ban 'em all or allow 'em all; you can't pick and choose.

jayscheuerle · Sep 19, 2003

This is all pretty silly, seeing that "Caucasian" refers to race and the term race is more of a concept than an actuality. It's not like she's starting a "Bulgarian Club".

"Caucasian" is the northern European descending finger of external characteristics that starts with the Nordic extreme of tall, thin, blonde-hair, blue-eyed folks and continues south down into....

That's the absurdity of "race", it's all a continuum, a greyish smear morphing from neighbor to neighbor.

Just call it "European Studies" and be done with it... - j

lmalave · Sep 19, 2003

Originally posted by QCassidy352
I disagree. How is there any more of a "black" culture than a caucasian culture? People with "black" skin can come from the Carribean, South America, Africa, or they could have been in the US for 8 generations. Even people from any one of those regions (eg. different parts of Africa) may have little or no cultural commonalities. Where exactly is the common ethnic basis there?

There may not be such a thing as common caucasian culture, but nor is there a common black culture or "ethnic experience."

Why is it that it's ok for some people to be proud of their heritage, but when other people have exactly the same sentiments they are racists?

That said, I think this club, (and it's Black and Asian equivalents, btw) are really stupid and devisive. But ban 'em all or allow 'em all; you can't pick and choose.

To answer your question, there's a LOT more of a homogenous African-american "black" culture than a "caucasian" culture in the US. Yes, a black Puerto-rican or Dominican looks superficially similar, but they genrerally consider themselves Latin-american rather than African american. That being said, most "Black" clubs in the U.S. don't in general call themselves "Black" clubs, they call themselves "African-American" clubs, which means they *are* identifiying specifically with what we think of as African-American culture.

Sayhey · Sep 19, 2003

Originally posted by QCassidy352
I disagree. How is there any more of a "black" culture than a caucasian culture? People with "black" skin can come from the Carribean, South America, Africa, or they could have been in the US for 8 generations. Even people from any one of those regions (eg. different parts of Africa) may have little or no cultural commonalities. Where exactly is the common ethnic basis there?

There may not be such a thing as common caucasian culture, but nor is there a common black culture or "ethnic experience."

Why is it that it's ok for some people to be proud of their heritage, but when other people have exactly the same sentiments they are racists?

That said, I think this club, (and it's Black and Asian equivalents, btw) are really stupid and devisive. But ban 'em all or allow 'em all; you can't pick and choose.

If you use the term "black" to include all of the cultures you listed I agree there is no common ethnic experience. The term often is used as the same as "African-Americans," in which case there is a commonality. I don't have a problem with folks being proud of their heritage whatever it is. The use of the word Caucasian does raise a red flag, however. It is used by folks who want to lump all folks with white skin together as a white "race." Doesn't mean that is what these kids are up to, just is something to watch for.

Makosuke · Sep 19, 2003

I've always found this sort of thing a bit weird. Start a black/Asian/Hispanic/whatever club, you're progressive, encouraging diversity, or generally being a good person. And that's probably true. Start a "white" club, and you're a racist. Same goes for my University's "Women's Center"... but a "Men's Center" would be misogynist.

Of course, this particular case might actually be an excuse to start a racist club--not easy to tell just by looking. A similar thing goes for a women's center--I think it's a good thing, personally, but the bulk of their literature doesn't exactly sound inviting for men, which basically ammounts to a sexist club.

There's also the overly-broad "Caucasian" definition, which seems unnecessary. My brother started a University Scottish club through a Multicultural Center, right alongside the Asian Student Union etc., which was unusual (being mostly a bunch of white folk), but nobody complained and it seemed perfectly legitimate.

Race is pointless in most cases, but be proud of your heritage, wherever it may come from and whatever color your skin is.

solvs · Sep 19, 2003

Well, according to the article, she's starting a club for caucasian "culture" (if there is such a thing). Anyone can join, not just white people. So it's a moot point. Just like anyone can be in a Gay/Lesbian, religious, African-American club, etc. So no one is really excluded.

It's just, are any other races going to want to be in it... that's the question?

jayscheuerle · Sep 19, 2003

Originally posted by solvs
Well, according to the article, she's starting a club for caucasian "culture" (if there is such a thing). Anyone can join, not just white people. So it's a moot point. Just like anyone can be in a Gay/Lesbian, religious, African-American club, etc. So no one is really excluded.

It's just, are any other races going to want to be in it... that's the question?

Caucasian culture has generally been what 90% of "World History" has been about. There's no shortage of that information during basic education in the States.

About the only crossover in Caucasian culture's is wearing shoes and shirts with buttons...

wdlove · Sep 19, 2003

Originally posted by solvs
Well, according to the article, she's starting a club for caucasian "culture" (if there is such a thing). Anyone can join, not just white people. So it's a moot point. Just like anyone can be in a Gay/Lesbian, religious, African-American club, etc. So no one is really excluded.

It's just, are any other races going to want to be in it... that's the question?

Lisa did get 245 signatures of support from students and adults in support of this club. She is allowing anyone to join that has an interest. She just wants to add to diversity!

NavyIntel007 · Sep 19, 2003

They should not be able to stop her from starting this club. If she is, the reverse discrimination is real and something must be done to stop it. The head of the NAACP doesn't want racial tension? Then dispand the Black Student Union. Either we have race/ethnic related clubs or we don't. To deny that is to deny our right to assemble.

Ugg · Sep 19, 2003

Whenever I am asked to tick a box indicating my "race" (one of the most useless terms ever IMHO) I cross out Caucasian and write in Northern European. My ancestors are NOT from the Kaukasus region of Europe and I resent the misuse of the word.

race according to dictionary.com

Usage Note: The notion of race is nearly as problematic from a scientific point of view as it is from a social one. European physical anthropologists of the 17th and 18th centuries proposed various systems of racial classifications based on such observable characteristics as skin color, hair type, body proportions, and skull measurements, essentially codifying the perceived differences among broad geographic populations of humans. The traditional terms for these populations Caucasoid (or Caucasian), Mongoloid, Negroid, and in some systems Australoidare now controversial in both technical and nontechnical usage, and in some cases they may well be considered offensive. (Caucasian does retain a certain currency in American English, but it is used almost exclusively to mean white or European rather than belonging to the Caucasian race, a group that includes a variety of peoples generally categorized as nonwhite.) The biological aspect of race is described today not in observable physical features but rather in such genetic characteristics as blood groups and metabolic processes, and the groupings indicated by these factors seldom coincide very neatly with those put forward by earlier physical anthropologists. Citing this and other pointssuch as the fact that a person who is considered black in one society might be nonblack in anothermany cultural anthropologists now consider race to be more a social or mental construct than an objective biological fact.

I've no problem with her starting her club but she needs to use another word to describe it. As noted above, race is a word that is simply not used anymore and has no place in an educational institution outside of history class. This is NOT a case of political correctness rather a case of scientific fact. Students of European descent would be more appropriate although it is a little heavy on the tongue. Our language defines our intent and to use such a racist term implies racist intent.

Durandal7 · Sep 19, 2003

I'm not caucasian, I'm Anglo-Germanic-Mediterranian.

MrMacMan · Sep 19, 2003

I tried to join the asian christian club at my school...
They stared at me for about 10 minutes, I was holding my ground.

I fit neither the (aparently) necessary requirements of either being Asian and/or being christian.

Originally posted by Durandal7
I'm not caucasian, I'm Anglo-Germanic-Mediterranian.

tazo · Sep 20, 2003

Good for her! I tried to start a club that would debate political correctness, "diversity" and discrimination. I would call it, the caucasian-american club, to make fun of political correctness. Alas when I went before the ASB council to have the club approved, and to get funding, it was turned down; they cited some vague rule which amounts to no because you're white.

On a similar note, I once tried to enter a BSU [black student union] meeting during lunch, and a black student, obviously a club officer, physically pushed me out of the room, where they were having the meeting. He said "you're not welcome here." Wow.

I've always found this sort of thing a bit weird. Start a black/Asian/Hispanic/whatever club, you're progressive, encouraging diversity, or generally being a good person. And that's probably true. Start a "white" club, and you're a racist. Same goes for my University's "Women's Center"... but a "Men's Center" would be misogynist.

Of course, this particular case might actually be an excuse to start a racist club--not easy to tell just by looking. A similar thing goes for a women's center--I think it's a good thing, personally, but the bulk of their literature doesn't exactly sound inviting for men, which basically ammounts to a sexist club.

You hit the nail right on the head buddy!

mactastic · Sep 20, 2003

This is why you let them have the silly club. It's only in protest, not an actual atempt at a real club. Stopping them from having it just makes it worse. Her club will fold within 2 years from lack of interest if we let her have it. If not we have to hear about how unfair it all is forever.

pseudobrit · Sep 20, 2003

I'm Celtic. Where's my club?

clubs are stupid

me_94501 · Sep 20, 2003

Originally posted by Durandal7
I'm not caucasian, I'm Anglo-Germanic-Mediterranian.

I demand to be called a European-American!

Actually, no. I demand simply to be called an American , sans hyphen.

MacAztec · Sep 20, 2003

I am Armenian and Greek.

Caucasian clubs are fine. What is the difference if its a Caucasian club or an African American club. Blacks just like to be called african americans because its more "politically correct", even though many are not from Africa.

Most white people are from Europe, and there is TONS of culture in europe.

And if whites have no culture, how come all we study in school is Europe, Greece, Armenia, Turkey, etc.

We don't ever talk about the African American heritage and the "great civilizations" they built.

Ugg · Sep 20, 2003

Originally posted by MacAztec
I am Armenian and Greek.

Caucasian clubs are fine. What is the difference if its a Caucasian club or an African American club. Blacks just like to be called african americans because its more "politically correct", even though many are not from Africa.

Most white people are from Europe, and there is TONS of culture in europe.

And if whites have no culture, how come all we study in school is Europe, Greece, Armenia, Turkey, etc.

We don't ever talk about the African American heritage and the "great civilizations" they built.

There ancestors were though and that is why they prefer the term African-American and it has little to do with PCness, rather it is a way to diminish the stereotypes and negative words.

If all you study in school is european culture then your school is in the minority. You would do well to question why your school does not devote time to African history and culture since that is where we ALL came from. The great African and Arab civilizations are the origins of western culture.

Caucasian Club

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